Get Booked – Esther Marshall, Sophie Says Series 120421

Hello, you are listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield and I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything book-related and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. And today on Get Booked, we have Esther Marshall, children's author, entrepreneur, diversity and inclusion expert, and JustGiving Influencer of the Year, who's here to talk to us about her Sophie Says book series, all about teaching children important life and mindset lessons in a fun and beautifully endearing way. Esther, hi! Hi, thank you for having me. You are very welcome. I'm looking forward to having a good old chat. Um, I've been reading the books. I actually found them really endearing, and I enjoyed— I kind of felt a little bit uplifted myself after reading them. I was like, I can do that, you're right, it doesn't matter even if I'm 39, if I want to do something, I can, what's stopping me? And I loved it, they're beautifully worded, well done. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I actually get a lot of messages from parents to be like, oh my gosh, I wish I had this when I was younger, but I loved reading it because it helped me. I'm like, Brilliant. We're, you know, getting two things done at the same time. I mean, it's just brilliant helping children and adults. That wasn't what I intended to do, but great, why not? Oh yeah, completely. And also it's just, it's a bit of a different tack as well, isn't it? Rather than, as adults and parents, we do read a lot of our children's books, and if we can kind of get involved and really understand the narrative, it's, I think it shows through when we're reading it to our children or when we're actually experiencing it with our children. Definitely. I mean, when my 2-year-old goes, "I want this one," I'll go, "Oh, that one again? Really? Really?" I want this one! Well, you've currently got 2 books out at the moment, as well as colouring books, haven't you? Yes, so the first one was Sophie Says I Can, I Will, and the second one is Sophie Says It's A-OK Not To Be OK. The third one has been written and is going through the illustration phase and hopefully going to be launched later this year. I read a book about 3 or 4 weeks ago, which was all to do with how we speak to our children and how that forms what they're capable of doing. Actually, do you know what? It was the GCSE Parenting Guide. Right. And it's how important the words we use are. And I remember utilizing just one of their very simple structures where when I was just walking around with my son and we were talking about what sport he wants to do and what sport what he's good at, and he was like, I'm brilliant at football, Mum, and I love rugby, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, but I'm just not good at this, and I'm not good at this. And I went, no, you're not good at that yet. Yeah. And it's that simple, yet. And he's like, oh yeah, well, I can just keep on trying and then I'll be good at it. And it opens up the conversation. And that's what the Sophie Says series is about as well, isn't it? It's opening conversations and understanding the possibility Well, exactly. It was one of the, the kind of main reasons, especially with Sophie Says It's Okay Not To Be Okay. We did a, a study, um, of over 1,000 parents in, in the UK, an independent study, um, of which 80% of parents said they were worried about their child's mental health, but only a third of them actually had anything at home to talk about it because people were too scared. And so I basically had so many messages from parents saying this is what I needed to bring up the conversation. Because what I say is, you don't have to say anything, just read the book and the conversation will flow. And it gives them almost like a toolkit to be like, okay, I'm too scared to talk about this, so I'm just going to stick to what's in the book. And that's exactly, exactly like what you're saying. Exactly the plan of what I had with this. So let's get that conversation going and it doesn't have to be all deep and dark and scary. Actually, let's do it in a proactive and fun way. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Because kids aren't daft, and if they think they've got to sit down and have a serious conversation with you, they're quite often going to shy away from it. Yeah. And there needs to be more interesting ways around this, and I think especially over the last year, which is when, you know, you've been working your hardest, it's for every single year group there's been different challenges, whether it's the fact that So do you have a son or a daughter? I have a son. Have a son, right. And so I've got two sons, and it's interesting that when they're two or three going through what's been happening, they've not been able to socialize as much, or it's, it's quite confusing for them. There's children that are just about to start school, so again, it's disruptive for them, and it's part of kind of their life path. I've got an 11-year-old who was obviously 10 last year, who's at the final year of juniors, where they're supposed to be going on their rite of passage, kind of going away for a week with everybody in their school, everybody in their year group and things like that. And everything that they're supposed to be doing, they've had to do completely differently, or it's been taken away from them. Teenagers as well. I don't know what you were like when you were 14, but I definitely wasn't staying indoors for a year with my mum and Netflix. No. Definitely not. And I spoke to a child psychologist and it was so beautiful what she said. She said, um, yes, they're missing out on this, this, this, and this, but they're also learning something that they didn't think they'd have to deal with, and it's teaching them resilience. So what's been taken away with one hand is being given with another, and eventually it'll level up and meet somewhere in the middle. I hope so. I really hope so. That would be wonderful. It would, wouldn't it? But you know, you found something productive to do with the last year and you're smashing out the parts and you must be quite happy with the last year. Yeah, it was an interesting few years, I guess. I think I wrote the first book, Sophie Says I Can, I Will, when I was on maternity leave and I was in the corporate world. And knew nothing other than getting into work early, leaving late. And then, and I was in diversity inclusion in the corporate world, so it was my bread and butter, but we were looking at it from an adult perspective. And then suddenly I am on maternity leave and I have this time to actually look around me and look around my surroundings, which I didn't before. I literally, you know, headphones in really early in the morning, get on the tube, go to work. Um, going to the local library, they did a, like, a book reading every, every Monday morning, and I'd always take my son. And, you know, you're in, in London, and I sat there and thought, oh my goodness, my son is the only person out of everybody that we're sat here with that's represented in this book. And then the next book, and the next book, and the next book. And I just thought, I can't believe I've been doing this for so many years as my corporate career. And actually, we need to start from when they're young rather than being reactive, which is what we're doing in corporate. Oh, okay, you know, women have had such a hard time getting into their careers, and then with, with, um, having kids, etc., and then now men and equality and whatever. It's like, well, if we don't start from when they're tiny, how are we going to expect them to, to achieve, basically, if they can't see anybody that looks like them? Doing what they want to do. And that's kind of where that came from. And so I personally, I don't know about you, but I found feeding in the night incredibly lonely. Everyone else is asleep and you have to be awake even though you're exhausted. And looking at my phone on social media, idiot that I was, thinking that that was a good idea. Everyone's so-called perfect lives, which it wasn't. And I thought, you know what, I've got to get off social media because it's just tearing me apart. Sat there exhausted. I just recovered from sepsis from birth and it wasn't a fun time. And instead I started reading a lot about behavioral science, which said that actually children from around the age of 18 months to 3 years old understand kind of quote unquote where they fit in society. And I thought, oh my God, my son's nearly 1 and I'm a bit late already. You know, we've got to get going on this. So I started to look for some books to read to him and I just couldn't find what I wanted to tell him. And so I thought, well, if I try and look at things positively, which was a bit difficult back then, then I've technically been given the gift of time because when else would I be up for 5 hours a night? And I thought, well, why don't I use that time in the night to write this book? And that's basically what I did. I kind of used my maternity leave in the night to write Sophie Says I Can, I Will. And it kind of went from there, really. Do you not find that you utilizing that time to be productive was the best gift to yourself? Yes, without a doubt. It's, it's completely changed my life because I then went back to work and was like, I'm loving this. This is really going somewhere else with the books. And, you know, parents are reading them and getting these messages. I'm thinking, how am I supposed to be a mom in this corporate world with these crazy hours? And I'm Getting into work, you know, later than I normally was, cuz I was doing a drop off at nursery and crying all the way to nurse, all the way to work thinking, oh, I've left my son, I'm a bad mother. And the mum guilt. And then getting in and being like, okay, come on, you can do this. You know, you're the Esther from before. Yes, let's do it. And then as soon as the clock hit 4, like, oh my God, I need to get out of here soon because I need to go and do nursery pickup and I don't wanna be late cuz I'm letting my son down. And that constant feeling of not doing anything right or enough. Um, and this has basically given me— well, the two books now have given me a space whereby I got it to a place where I could leave my corporate job. I, I'm nowhere near kind of on the same kind of benefits and salary as I was there, but you know, enough to pay the nursery fees, enough to get by, that I can actually do something that I love now. Do you know what, it's a tough decision for many parents to make, male and female. Um, And but there are the elements where if you're working ridiculously long hours, then you have to weigh up as to whether it's nurturing your soul and making you a good parent. And some people are better parents for working in a job that they absolutely love, and sometimes they don't love that job. And it's all a case of balancing it out and making sure, you know, that it works for everybody. And there's a different method for every single parent out there that's going to work. Well, exactly, 100%. And, and that's where I kept thinking, is this gonna work for me? My entire life and all my friends and family know me as the career woman. Oh, Esther will do this, Esther will do that. Am I gonna change all of that just for this? And eventually it got to a point where I was like, yes, yes I am. Because, and I think COVID kind of helped see that a bit clearer. Um, but yes, I want to be at the school gates when my son I want to leave school at 3:30, and I won't be able to if I'm in this. Whereas yes, at the moment I am doing longer hours working on my own project, but they're on my own time, so I don't feel like they're longer hours, um, because of the flexibility and the autonomy that I now have, um, which works for me, and it may not work for somebody else. And that's just it. It just totally depends on the person and the final— the family dynamic, um, and the family makeup as to what works. That's why it's so difficult, right? Well, yeah, and also because of the judgments from other parents, which you probably will agree with me with this, that a lot of judgments from parents about the decisions we make are normally down to jealousy. And yes, it's, um, it can— I do remember when I was in the corporate world as well, and as a mother, you work ridiculously hard to do, especially if you're part-time, maybe just coming back from maternity leave or easing back in again. You work twice as hard as everybody else to prove to people that you haven't gone off into the mummy head bubble, and then all it takes is one day in 3 months where you can't come in because you've got the sniffles and you are that letdown. Yeah. And it is soul destroying, even though you know for the last 3 months you've done more in the 3 days you've been working than anybody else. You're still seeing— and it's absolutely soul-destroying. And that's why there's got to be the right balance. And, you know, I mean, we'll talk about a little bit more as we, as we go through our chat, but you found a way of basically turning a lot of rather challenging elements to your life into something positive. And what that does for your mindset has got to be what's incredible. But I, I'd say it, it's revolutionary really what's happened there because I've only been doing this now for 2 months full-time. I only left my corporate job 2 months ago, so it's still fairly new. But the policy, the maternity policy at the corporate that I was at, because it was such a good policy, I got, you know, 9 months off and whatever. I had to go back full-time for a year, otherwise I had to pay it back. So you know, I had other mum friends who were going back and easing into it. And literally I showed up in June and it was straight into full-time. And full-time was not 5 days a week, it was like 6 and a half days a week and evenings and getting calls at different times saying they needed this. And it's a global company, so, you know, you had the US awake at like 10, 10 PM or whatever, you know. Um, and it just got to a point, I said, this is Ridiculous. I'm like, I'm not helping anybody really, because I'm just constantly exhausted and constantly, there's no self-care, nothing. And yeah, like you say, you just get to a point where it almost forces you to make a decision one way or the other, which actually I'm grateful for, because I needed to be pushed into a decision one way or the other. But on top of that, regardless of the fact that we're doing ridiculously long hours, but you had this kind of yearning to get these books out there. And actually, I was reading a little bit about why you decided to do the Sophie Says series. And I was like, all my favorite cartoons that even I watched, but also my children have watched, they are all male-centric, aren't they? Yeah. And that was the thing I was finding, you know, especially because all day, every day, I was looking at the corporate diversity and inclusion strategy and I was helping other companies with it. So it was forefront and center of my mind constantly. And then you read these books and they're all male-centric, or the animals are all male, or, you know, there's absolutely no diversity whatsoever. And you just think, how on earth? You know, I was looking at our corporate recruitment strategy of how we bring people in. I was like, well, it goes back to when people are kids, because if people don't have the same opportunities, we aren't going to be able to get people from all different backgrounds into the company. And, and that, and that's where it came from. It's like, we've got to do something. Never mind talking about 30, 40-year-olds coming into the company. We've got to do something with primary school kids. Yeah, that's where we've got to go. Um, and that really was exactly why, yeah, like you say, that's why I started it. And then I did go down to 4 days a week so that I could start to do a little bit more on, on the books. I was doing 1 day a week on the books and I was going into schools kind of pre-COVID and reading the book to them and seeing how much it inspired them. I just thought, I just got so much energy from reading to these kids and hearing about what they were thinking. I was like, how am I getting so much energy from one day a week and not from four days a week? And eventually it just gets to a point where you think, oh God, it's scary, and it's really, really scary, but I've got to do it. I've just got to do it. Well, and, and that is— it was such a brave move as well because you've done it at a time where most people would be quite scared to make changes. But I think one of the positive elements of what's happened over the last year in terms of COVID is that people have been forced to make decisions that they would have quite happily plodded along in the grey zone. Yeah. And I prefer to look at the positive sides. I'm fully aware that there's some pretty horrendous sides to what's happened over the last year as well. However, I was ironically so disheartened when— and I must say, it's a well-known fact throughout all of my friends that I'm a huge SpongeBob SquarePants fan. No, you sounded a bit like SpongeBob then. I mean, I've loved it for ages, and I was thinking— and I've always loved it— and when I was thinking about what I'd read about how you said, you know, they're all male-centric, and I was like, The only female character is a squirrel that lives in a bubble. Yeah, and you have that, it's not just a SpongeBob, it's so many of them. Tom and Jerry, yeah, just you name it, all of them. All the stereotypes, you know, like even in the new ones with things like Paw Patrol, which I just about let my child watch because I think, well, at least it has some decent messages about sharing or whatever. But, you know, it took 7 series for them to bring in a second female character. And the first female character was pink and a bit airy-fairy. And now one is purple, you know, and same you have with Peppa Pig, you know, the stereotypes that are in there that, I mean, it just, it's harmful. It's really, really harmful. Oh yeah, because Peppa Pig goes round in her pink top and she wants to just play dolls and do some cooking with Mummy, whereas, you know, the George goes around stomping around in puddles and playing with dinosaurs, and you just think, oh wow, hello 1950s. Well, exactly. And Mummy stays at home all day and does the cooking, and Daddy comes home from work and he eats so much and is fat and sits on the sofa. You know, that may be some people's family makeup for sure, but the world's moved on from that, and that's not a lot of people's makeup. And you're basically indoctrinating kids from that young Um, so I do say to people, I say, we're trying to be Peppa Pig with purpose, basically. No, I want us to be a family name, but actually teach really important things in a fun and authentic way. That our tagline is making life's most important lessons fun to learn. And that's really what I want to do because children need to know this stuff, especially in a world like today where, like you're saying, they need the resilience more than we ever did in our generation. And where are they going to get that from? At the moment, I don't see where they're going to get that from. It was interesting, I interviewed Ed James, Mark, and Nikki Taylor last week for Get Booked, and it was about their book Be More Kid. And one of the reasons they said that we needed to kind of embrace the simplicity and the joy that children have, um, they were talking about things that have happened to us that have made us think that we have to be different, and What changes in children is reading in the books about who they're supposed to be, about finding your prince and finding your happy ever and ever after, sorry. And all these books that form these opinions which then confuse children and make them feel like they need to be put in a particular box. Yes. Although I'm gonna request something of you. When you're off air and your son is absolutely nowhere near in sight, please search out the 18-rated Peppa Pig, where Peppa Pig's mum says exactly what she wants to say to the kids. So definitely against the grain and not what you'd expect. It's completely rude, but it's brilliant. It's so funny. I'll definitely check that out. That's funny. I can just imagine. There are the comments about Daddy Pig sitting on the sofa and why should she have to do all the cooking all the time. It's very funny. I think they're similar with SpongeBob. It's very funny. But yeah, so there's, there's other reasons as well that you decided to go down this route. Now, you're— this is to do with your sister's legacy, isn't it? Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what happened actually, so that our listeners can understand just how much you've gone through, and yet you still managed to completely change your life and go in a different direction at a time when most people would struggle? That's the best way to put it, I think. Yeah, of course. Um, So my sister Rebecca and I, 18 months apart. So we grew up sharing a room until we were 12, basically incredibly close. We got dressed in the same clothes. Everyone used to think we were twins, but up until, I guess, the whole of primary school, everyone would— well, they did think she was older. I mean, she was the life and soul of the party, massive smile, eyes lit up a room, and I kind of stood behind her, very shy. And things started to change come secondary school, and she got a lot more shy and a lot more into kind of her studies, which was a good thing, of course. And then went to medical school and got diagnosed with anxiety and depression at the beginning. And then it started to get a lot more serious, and she got diagnosed with psychotic depression and then psychosis. And then eventually only just last year bipolar. But within that, there were many, many hospital visits and also hospital stays for admissions for long periods of time, long manic episodes. And I mean, it was, it was really harrowing. There were plenty of times where for one reason or another I was next of kin and there were no beds in the hospital because there's, you know, such little provision for mental health within this country. Um, and so I was having to get this medication and give it to her, and the psychiatrists were having to talk to me as to how to do it and what to do, etc. So it'd been a long, long journey. Um, but she was getting a lot better, um, and was out of hospital and had a job. She couldn't practice medicine anymore, unfortunately. But she was still able to use her expertise because she— her brain was just absolutely phenomenal. One of the brightest people you'd ever meet. And in January, at the end of January, right at the end of January last year, she decided that she couldn't carry on anymore. And so left, left a note. And she went off and kind of ended her battle with bipolar, is the way I put it. And so I lost, I lost my sister. A month before we went into lockdown. And then suddenly trying to grieve and not being able to see anybody, plus doing a full-time job with an 18-month-old at home. It was just an absolute— I'd say it was a nightmare, but I just was so numb that I don't think I realized how much of a nightmare it was, if I'm honest. Yeah. And it was in the two nights after she passed away that I wrote the second book, Sophie Says It's Okay Not to Be Okay. Kind of in memory of her, basically, of all of the things that we spoke about while she was in hospital where she said, you know, I wish I would have learned these lessons when I was younger and knew that it was okay not to be okay and all the other kind of messages in the book. And that's where it came from. I mean, actually, the big idea right at the beginning was both of our ideas. I was going to write the books and she was going to do the illustrations because she was a phenomenal artist and she found it incredibly therapeutic. And she very shortly after I had my son went back into hospital. And throughout that next kind of 18 months of his life was in and out of hospital. And she said to me, look, I can't do the illustrations, but I still want to see it happen. And she did see the first book and she did read it to my son. But then, you know, going back to work and sat there and thinking, oh, you know, this was our idea together. Coupled with the long hours and am I being the best mum I can be, etc., and am I trying to, you know, get her legacy off the ground, etc., I thought I really enjoyed that day when I was 4 days a week that I was doing stuff with the books because I felt like she was with me. And it got to a point where I thought, I've just got to go and do this. I've got to try in everything that I do to kind of keep her legacy alive. And, and that's basically where, where we got to. But it was, yeah, an incredibly tough year. Um, I've done a lot of, of counseling, so I think I've realized now how tough it was. But as I mentioned before, I was just so numb. There was so much going on. I even got COVID as well and just kind of carried on because I thought, oh, I'm, I'm just sad, you know, these headaches and everything. I just, I'm run down because, you know, that, that you know, literally burying her about a week before lockdown came in and all of that. It was, it, I just thought, oh, I'm just run down. I didn't realize. And then I didn't look after myself properly and I got shingles as well. It was just, wow. No, it was just the year of, of hell. Yeah, it does sound like it, but I've, I've gotta say though, what you've done with your life experience to turn tragedy into something positive for others to benefit from, it's everything. Oh, thank you, that means a lot. Um, yeah, I mean, it's just— I do hope— I was kind of, when I was reading, um, about your sister, I was, I was kind of hoping that the next book, or at least one of the next couple of books, is going to focus on grief, because I think you're perfectly positioned to take that on. Is that something that you've got in mind? It's in the pipeline. The The second one was supposed to be Sophie Says Be Proud of Who You Are. And that one kind of got put on hold because of this one. So that's the next one that's gonna come out. But yeah, you are not the first person to say that to me, that, you know, it's really something that's needed because so many children go through different types of grief that we, you just don't think, you think, oh, they'll be fine with it. And that actually— Kids are resilient. Yeah, they're resilient, they're fine. But something is needed in that space. There are different books out there that talk about mental health, and there are different books that talk about grief, etc., and self-esteem. But one of the things I was finding in my research, which I found out as well through my son, is they're more likely to learn or do something if it's something that's familiar with them. So if they're already familiar with the first 2 or 3 books, then it's more likely that they'll, you know, be able to learn the other lessons. You know, I remember when I was weaning my son and all he wanted was Paw Patrol. And actually my sister bought him some Paw Patrol cutlery and within a day he was using the cutlery. It's that kind of thing. That's where I say I want this to go. Like, I want it to be a family name brand. Yeah, to buy into the whole concept and then, yes, so much easier to put across other topics. Yeah, without a doubt. And actually, you know, I kind of say to myself, you know, What, what parent doesn't want their child to say, I can, I will, it's okay not to be okay, be proud of who you are, and then all the other bits that can come from it? Um, how can we build something whereby these kids take these mantras from those books through their childhood and into their adult life and become more resilient and more content with their lives? That's, that's basically my aim, um, of how can we build a more resilient next generation that maybe we can stop stop people taking the path that my sister did in the end. And also, it's forming new ways of receiving information and actually dealing with information. You know, children are— I mean, I've always been very open with my kids. You know, if my kids want to dress— well, if my boys want to dress in dresses, if they want to do this, if they want to talk about this, we're all quite open. I mean, some of my friends say you're a bit too open with your kids, but I'm just like, I just don't want them to ever think that many things, you know, off the cards. And a true example of when you said, you know, we need to actually focus on the children and then they can help form our society. I had, um, my youngest son had a really good friend who decided— I mean, we always knew pretty much from the age about 2 years old that she no longer wanted to be a he, which she was never really born to be a she. And the decision was made that just before COVID we all knew that we were probably going to go into lockdown and schools would be ending. And that's when he made a decision to formally announce in school that he was then going to— I'm not going to use the names— but going to be known as so-and-so instead of the previous female name. Right, and the mum had texted me because I'm really good friends with her and she said, listen, this is what's going to happen in school tomorrow. I always appreciate your support, but I just want to let you know that it's happening. So this kid had gone into the classroom and said, by the way everybody, you probably know that I have behaved a bit differently to what you might have assumed. I'm now going to be known as so-and-so and I'm going to be using 'Gender-neutral toilets from here on in. Does anybody have any questions?' Stood there in front of 30 kids and kids just asked a few questions, blah blah blah. Yeah. When I got home from work, I turned around to my son and I said, 'Did anything fun or interesting happen in school today?' And he's like, 'Nope.' I was like, 'Sure, so nothing interesting's happened? Nothing out of the ordinary's happened whatsoever?' And he's like, 'No.' What about so-and-so? Did they not have an announcement? 'Well, yeah, but we always know, we always knew that there was supposed to be a boy, but that's not a big deal.' That fills me with so much hope, really does. But that's exactly how it's supposed to be, isn't it? Yeah, it wasn't a thing at all. They didn't see it as anything out of the ordinary. It was presented beautifully, normally, but just took it on the chin, and it was brilliant. I loved it. And that's what you can only hope for society, right? I think sometimes when I go into these schools and I look at that and I see how open-minded they are, and, you know, especially with a 2-year-old at the moment who doesn't see any difference in anyone, it's like, okay, cool, you're my age, let's sit down, let's play. You know, they may be from a completely different background, they may not have the same things or whatever. It's like, why, why can that not be translated into adult life? The world would be so much of a better place if we could. Read Be More Kid. It is interesting, like, the kind of psychological elements that they go into as to why we suddenly stop taking on all the fantastic elements of children. Yes, we have responsibilities, but, you know, we seem to think that— well, you definitely don't feel this way, but we seem to think that once we get to, you know, a certain age with certain responsibilities, we have to put ourselves at the back of the queue and just live for other people and be a passenger in our lives, when actually, no, grab the bull by the horns and actually make something of your life and make sure that you are being somebody to look up to and not just fading into the background and then wondering 50 years later what actually happened. Yes, I love that. Yeah, without a doubt. If only more people could, right? Yeah, completely. But I do see things are changing though, um, and maybe it's because I'm now in this world, I'm speaking to a lot more parents that think this way, but I do think, especially with everything that's gone on in the past year, parents are talking to their children more, and for me that's a massive positive. Yes, I mean, they've had to, they've had to get involved with so much more, and whether we like it or not, we've had to speak to our children because there's been nobody else to speak to. Yeah. But yeah, we've had to realize that there's a lot of children have had— they've been on tech more. I mean, as adults we've been on tech more. I mean, I keep on getting these notifications from my iPad very unhelpfully telling me how much my tech time usage is up, but the kids are doing the same. I know, I hate it. It's a nightmare, but the kids are like, "Kids, get off your Xbox!" 'But Mum, this is the only way we're getting to chat to our friends.' And it is true. Yeah. And there's so much on TikTok and so many— the boredom element that, yeah, we've had to find different ways of kind of engaging with them and seeing what we can do and just trying to understand what's going on. All these children that have had their youth stolen from them in so many different ways. But all we can do, and this is what I love about books, it helps us to understand, helps us, it gives us tools of how to actually help and deal with some of these trickier subjects, which is why, you know, the Sophie Say series, it's there for people who think, I have no idea how to even tackle this subject with my children. But exactly, it gives you the language and the— I had somebody I've had some amazing, um, a lot of amazing messages about it's okay not to be okay. And that's more understandable because of the pandemic and mental health. But so many with Sophie Says I Can, I Will, because it, it is about like self-esteem and making sure that you can do it. But there's a lot in there kind of under the surface around gender equality, equal opportunities, et cetera. And I've had some amazing messages from parents saying, I didn't even know my son knew about gender equality. And we've just had the most amazing talk that I've ever had with my son about how he thinks about the world. He's like 7 years old, you know, and like loads of those kind of comments where you're like, yes, okay, it's working. You know, even if it's only 2, 5, 6 people, whatever, like it's, it's, it's, it's going, you know. Um, and, and that's just genuinely like when I got some of those messages, like a dream come true, you know, when I think of sitting in a pitch black room feeding my son or, and reading and writing the first book or sitting kind of crying, read, writing the second book. Like, you know, actually people are finding this helpful. And for me, I think one of the biggest things that I love, it's kind of very sentimental, whatever. But I remember the day after we found out that my sister passed away and we had to write this email to family and friends to let them know because we were like, we do not have the energy to call up everybody. Like, this is just going to— it's going to take it out of us. So we wrote this email, by which point a few of our close friends and family knew already, and they were in, they were in my parents' house with us. And we literally pressed send on the email and the, the sky, I kid you not, like my family friends can back this up, um, went dark and straight away from nowhere it started raining and there was this massive rainbow. And we were like, wow, she's telling us that she's safe up there. So the rainbow then for us became this massive piece of kind of— it's a symbol of calm and she's okay and at peace. And then COVID hit and rainbow became this massive sign for the NHS. And my sister was a doctor for the NHS. So, you know, we were only allowed to go out for what was it right at the beginning, an hour. So I'd go out for a walk with my son and, you know, you've just been through that and then lockdown and everything was a bit stressful, but all you saw in people's windows were rainbows. And it was amazing. Like, wow, she's here, um, she's with us. And that's why on the front of It's Okay Not to Be Okay, there's this, this big rainbow, and it features quite heavily in the book. And for me, it feels like, yeah, any single person now that buys that book has her and her memory with them. It's just that it's so simple and it's so personal, but for me, it was such a big thing. You can't make this up. Like, the rainbow came out, and now everyone's talking about rainbows, It was, it was just very strange in a really nice way. Yeah, I did. I love the COVID as well, actually. When you talk about how other people have been saying they love the language in it and they love the message behind it, you actually have been to chat to Harry and Meghan, haven't you? Yes. That's nice, isn't it? It was, well, it was lovely. I mean, it was incredibly bittersweet because it was literally 4 weeks after my sister passed away. Oh no. And I got a call to say Harry and Meghan, who at the time were the president and vice president of the Queen's Commonwealth Trust, which is like an organization for young people all over the world that are trying to do things to make the world a better place. And I'm part of that network and they've been amazing. So it's a wonderful network. And they said, look, they're coming to London and they'd like to meet 6 people who are working to really change the game in gender equality and equal opportunities and mental health. And they said, we'd love for you to be one of those 6 to come and talk to them. I thought, oh my God, yes. Um, so, and we weren't allowed to tell anyone. I don't know whether that's good timing or bad timing really. Yeah. I mean, at the time I was like, great, this is something to completely kind of take my mind off things, which, you know, isn't necessarily that healthy, but at least for a few weeks it was. And we weren't allowed to tell anyone, of course. So, and I mean, my husband didn't even know. It was literally like, under wraps, embargoed. We went— I took the morning off work. I said I had an appointment and I've got an appointment with my dentist, you know, and had the conversation and literally just went back to work. And then 3 days later in the press, because it was embargoed until it came out in the press, suddenly it was like, wait, what? I was like, sorry. Harry and Meghan have just posted about you and you're standing next to Harry and it went into every single magazine. So it was in like Hello and all these different places. And it was, it was, it was bittersweet in many ways because it was, what a high being there. I mean, I was so nervous, but they kept everybody very much at ease and it was so, it was so real. There were only 6 of us in there. In this room just chatting, and it felt so normal, even though it was the most unnormal thing I've ever done in my life. And then you come home and you think, oh, Rebecca would have loved that I did that. And then I was like, well, it was another re— it was another moment when I realized that she really wasn't here. Because with lockdown, there were so many times where it was because of the anxiety, she always wanted to speak to you face to face. She didn't want to speak over the phone. Because she was worried as to what you were saying. So when we went into lockdown and I wasn't seeing her, it wasn't like I would have spoken to her over the phone or over Zoom or whatever it was. So I very much felt like, oh, that's okay, we'll come out of lockdown and I'll open my door and she'll be there. But after speaking to Harry and Meghan, it was one of those moments where it was like, oh, I really realized that she's not here. So it was a phenomenal day. It was amazing. They were so fantastic and so down to earth. And regardless of what everyone's saying at the moment, whatever side of the camp they're on, personally, I felt very emotionally connected with them. I was talking to Harry about grief and talking to Meghan about, you know, all of this kind of stuff about equal opportunities and gender equality, which she's so behind, you know, and it was— it was genuine. I gave them a copy for Archie. They said they loved it. And, oh yeah, it was lovely. And then, you know, then suddenly they put out their stuff on their social media and you have the press calling or whatever, and I had all this stuff that was going to happen. And then suddenly we went into lockdown and they were like, oh sorry, we don't really need to talk to you about seeing Harry and Meghan because we've got this pandemic that's on its way, which I totally understand. It was just the worst timing ever. Yeah, do you know what, this pandemic, it's, uh, it really couldn't get its timing more— well, the only thing it did right in terms of its its timing was the summer weather. Yes, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine it was incredibly bittersweet. But whatever side people are on, and I don't like the thought of people taking any sides, Harry and Meghan do epitomize diversity and inclusion, don't they? Yes. And, you know, and grief, you know, I was saying to Harry some stuff about, you know, about my sister, you know, and there was just a real moment where anyone who's been through some grief, who just kind of gets that— I didn't get it before I'd been through it. And there was just like that moment where you just— I said to my husband, it was the strangest thing, because I spoke to them about grief and about being a parent. And for those 20 minutes, I felt as if I was on the same page as them. You know, we couldn't have more different lives if we tried, but but it just felt so connected. We were talking, you know, I said to them, I don't know how you feel about being a parent, but you know, it changes your whole perspective on life. And they're like, yes, and talking about this and then with grief. And then Ari was talking about that and it was like, oh wow, you know, we could be friends. Like, it's like sitting in their CT class. Yeah, most, most definitely not. But in those 20 minutes, that's, that's kind of how they made us all feel, that, you know, there is, there was no barrier. We could chat to them and everything. It was, it was really quite amazing. And, uh, a moment that I guess because of this year I haven't really thought a lot about just because there's been so much going on. But when I do interviews like this and you do talk about it, you think, wow, what an absolute moment that was and a once in a lifetime opportunity for sure. You— I mean, I'm sure with, with what's happened over the last year, including your sister, the books, Harry and Meghan, the pandemic, the fact that your son is still only 2 years old, I hope at some point you give yourself some time to just sit back and go, "Whew, right, okay, that actually happened," and congratulate yourself as well. I hope so. I really hope so. I'm gonna try. I mean, I do talk to children about, you know, self-care and self-love, so I feel like I need to start doing that. But I think for me, one of the biggest things is now not being in such a corporate role and having that time to give to myself actually during the day has made me realize in a way I've started to reflect on the year, whereas I didn't have the time to do that when I was rushing to work, or even when we weren't rushing to work, so working from home, it was, you know, get straight up, literally shower, and you're at your desk. So you just did more work because you didn't have the commute. Um, whereas now I actually have the time. Um, I have some wonderful mentors who've said to me, you know, yes, you might have been used to corporate world where you were back to back, so-called busy all the time, you know, that's not how you need to be when you're trying to create something. You need to give yourself space. So for at least an hour a day, I will go on a walk. I don't listen to anything and I just walk. And it is just the most therapeutic thing. And I'm like, wow, I'm actually looking after myself. This is really novel and really quite exciting. And it's been 2 months of that. And it, and it just feels wonderful. I've never done that before. I love walking. This is something that I do quite often, and every 2 weeks my kids go to their dad's for the weekend, and my friend's like, oh cool, what you doing? I'm like, I'm going for a walk, but I'm gonna go for about 10 miles. I'm like, oh, who are you going with? I'm like, um, the dog, me, myself, and I. Um, oh, you're not gonna be lonely? I'm like, ah, it's like heaven to me. And don't get me wrong, I would chat to random people and I will quite often listen to Audibles and things like that, but the joy and headspace of a walk is so beneficial. And so many more people are doing this, especially in lockdown. I mean, yes, we're all going to get a little bit kind of, "Oh good, another walk," but there's different ways in which— that's why I think the Audibles are good and listening to shows like this where people can just kind of delve in and out, learn something new, and kind of feel like they're a part of something Yeah, but when you were saying then about just a little bit before about the fantastic mentors you've had, here on the show I love to ask my guests who you think has been a great mentor or a great person to watch out for, whether they're in the public eye, whether they're your neighbor, or, you know, just somebody. We try and go for people where other people can actually look towards as well, but is there somebody, say, on social media that you just think, you speak common sense and something that always uplifts me, is there somebody that comes to mind when I say that? It's a really, really good question. Thanks. There's a few. I think it depends in what, which mood I'm in, whether it's my listening to mum podcasts and finding, you know, other mums that think the same. So someone like Giovanna Fletcher for me has been a kind of, she presents the Happy Mum Happy Baby podcast. Yeah. Just so natural, never hiding who she is as a mother and the good days and the bad days and bringing people onto her show that talk about the real things that I just remember feeling again, like you're saying, being part of it and thinking, oh my gosh, someone else feels like that. Oh, thank you. For me, she's a real shining light in my kind of mother figure-wise. And depending, like, in business there are some other people or whatever, but I guess I've kind of, I've moved on from that. But I think really she kind of moved the needle for me in thinking, oh, I have to be this mother that I thought I had to, which I thought I had to at the beginning. I mean, we had 14 people come to visit me about 3 hours after my baby was born because I thought it was the right thing to do. And I thought that that's everyone needed to be there. And the same thing as soon as we got home, it was, oh yes, this person's mother-in-law's brother's sister needs to come and meet the baby. Okay, sure, of course, please come in. I'll make you tea, I'll make you biscuits, whatever. I was baking and I just sent myself into such oblivion of thinking this is what I needed to do. And then finding things like that kind of podcast and that kind of community was like, you don't need to do that. What are you doing? No, you don't need to be anything and everything to everybody. No, and if I ever decide to have another child, I most definitely will do it very, very differently. Um, but yeah, I think it's people like that who may have opened up the conversation. Um, for me, I really respect, and I hope I can do the same for younger children. There definitely wasn't people like her around when I had my two children, and I could have really done with something like that. I mean, I— my in-laws came and stayed stayed with me the day after I gave birth. Right. And I was actually fuming and very upset, but I'd run out of energy, and I think I actually sat there talking to my firstborn, who was a day old, about how unhappy I was about them there, and I didn't realise that they were listening on the monitor. They didn't go home though! Oh brilliant, that's fantastic. There's so many more knitter stories, it's hilarious, but that's one of the best. Oh brilliant. I didn't realize until I came down and heard the gurgling of my son Leo upstairs. I was like, "Ah, whoops. Doop-a-doop-a-doop-a-doo. It's so nice to see you all." But again, I should have put my foot down. And we need to sometimes— it's this whole speculate to accumulate. Sometimes we might need to put our foot down a little bit to kind of make sure that we can be better for anybody and everybody. Well, and better for yourself because you'll feel better yourself and therefore you'll be better for everyone else. Yeah, I was so anxious because I wasn't even allowed to spend time with my own baby when it had just been born because there was like 6 people in my house going, 'Ah, it's our turn!' I was like, 'Get off!' Yeah, and the fact that nobody even says that, you know, the whole time you're pregnant everyone takes such good care of you. Oh, you mustn't stand, you mustn't this. And literally, as soon as you pop the baby out— I shouldn't say pop out because whatever, you know what it's like without— it doesn't really work that way. But as soon as the baby is out, do you just— I almost felt like I became invisible. It was like no one— people weren't coming to even look at me or anything. Not that I need anyone to look at me, but they weren't even asking how I was. And I was really sick. We were both sick in hospital for 10 days afterwards. And it was like, okay, thank you, you, you've, you've got a baby, we'll take the baby now. And it was it just kind of felt like you then disappear as well. Um, so things like that really just made it so it was like, ah, there's so many other people that think that. That's, that feels really good. I wish they didn't, but at least they, at least there's other people that feel like that. Well, I think a lot of, um, depression or feeling as if you're not connected with yourself, it's when you feel like you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. You're not thinking what you're supposed to be thinking. And when people actually are honest and share this. There's solidarity and there's strength in that, and I think what people don't realize, that a lot of these mummy influencers, they're not doing it for the free nappies, they're doing it for mental health reasons, you know. There's a lot of influencers out there that have many different reasons, but so there's a lot of people out there just want people to feel as if they belong Yes. No, I get that completely for sure. And I think those ones that are genuine, it's shining through like sunbeams. The other ones that sit there with their perfect skin and they look fantastic and I know they'll be sitting in white, you're thinking, oh, come on. Yeah. Like I go to the playground, I'm like, why is every single other mum's coat like not covered in rubbish? Whatever. I'm like, I was like, it doesn't matter how many times I wash my coat a week, like it's still covered in stuff. And I was like, I'm like, do you know what? I'm okay with that because I get down on the floor with my son and so be it. And if I look a bit dirty, you can judge me, whatever, you know? And I, but it took me a while to get there of like, oh no, my child's gonna be dressed in nice clothes and we'll only do, and it's like, no, they're gonna go out with that, with whatever food they've just had smushed all over their face because he won't let me wash him. And, and so be it. That's, that's who we are. Get over it, kind of. My mum used to do the inspections for, you know, like Ofsted inspections. She used to do it for under-5 settings where she wasn't the person doing the inspection, she was the person going in to do like dummy runs to make sure that they would do better and to kind of tell them where they were failing and where they'd need to improve to. And I remember she walked into this place once and they were all on their best behaviour and all the kids were all kind of everywhere was clean and tidy, all the kids were clean, and she just walked in and went, "Nope, I'll come back tomorrow. I want to see these kids having some fun and actually being involved in activities. This is not what Ofsted wants to see." Quite right. And came out and then went back again a few days later, and I was like, that is it. If you see kids that are ridiculously clean and the houses are kind of spotless and whatever, that they're not, they're not living their best lives, are they? No, no, no, not at all. And, you know, I think especially during lockdown, one of the best things we bought was some salopettes. It was literally like, here you go, go and jump in as many muddy puddles as you want, fall over, whatever you want. Um, take out 3 changes of clothes with us so that at least he could stay outside even if he got wet so that he didn't get ill, you know. So we're not being, you know, like that. I mean, we're not, we're not encouraging them to cover themselves in feces, you know, just to have a little bit Yeah, exactly, exactly. There's a line, you know what, there's always a line. There's always a line, yeah, but I tend to use that line a bit like a skipping rope. Yeah, that makes total sense. We've only got 5 minutes left of today's chat and there's 2 things that I really need to make sure that we get in there. First of all, I just like to ask for 3 top tips on mental well-being, you know, on whatever it may be, whether it's parenting, whether it's just you. And I know you have just said that you love to go out for a walk and that is everything, if you want to use that as one of them. But I want to do the 3 top tips and then save enough time for you to tell us about the Stand Tall charity. Oh sure, okay, of course. So let's start with the top tips. Top tips for mental well-being. Personally, for me, yes, it has been going for a walk. The other thing for me has been I've started the Couch to 5K app and I never ever thought I'd ever run in my life. But my gosh, do I feel better after going for a run now. And I, like 9 weeks ago, I couldn't even walk like 10 minutes without feeling out of breath. So it's not like I'm just someone that's constantly going to the gym or whatever. And that, if I'm having a bad day especially, and you feel like there's no way I'm going out, and you get out and you go for a run, you come back, that makes me feel so, so, so much better. Um, uh, and the other thing for me that I find really therapeutic and helps is writing. Um, so at the end of each day, I do a little bit of writing, um, be it about my day, be about something either that I'm happy about or sad about or whatever, but just kind of keeping in touch with kind of what's going on, and so I don't kind of get wrapped up in the busyness of life. And that for me is my kind of headspace time, and absolutely love it. Wow. Do you know what, there's something about writing, it is cathartic. It doesn't have to go anywhere, but it's a case of doing a bit of a brain dump. Yes. And I find that if you can't sleep because there's thoughts running around in your head, write them down They're put somewhere and you don't have to worry about them wearing around your head. Yeah, I've got a book and a pen right by my bed. Yeah, me too. You don't want to get onto the iPad, otherwise you'll be on Candy Crush in no time. Yes. And just because we've got just a couple of minutes left, and I really want all our listeners to know about the Stand Tall charity. Yes, I set up Stand Tall charity around 8 or 9 years ago. Um, after going to a conference, again, one of these kind of, um, young networks, it's called One Young World, which again brings, you know, people together from all over the world. And it's me being quite an introverted person. I'm not very good at the kind of, you know, networking kind of thing. But in this kind of circle, no one asks you the small questions. They'll come up to you, hi, my name's so-and-so, what are you doing to change the world? I was like, right. These are my kind of people. I feel at home here. And during this conference, I heard a lot of people talk about their life stories and how they're kind of trying to make a difference from something quite bad. And I heard a lot of people talking about abuse that they'd faced and how they were trying to make a difference. And I just realized, well, I went through an abusive relationship. My first ever so-called boyfriend, if you can call it that. But I didn't really want to talk about it because I felt ashamed. And I thought especially people at work shouldn't know about that because that's not right. And it just kind of changed my mindset and everything of like, no, this is who I am, this is what I've been through, um, and we should try and help other people. Um, and what did I need back then is I didn't need to go to one of these charities where you have to walk through the door and say, by the way, I've been through this. I just wanted somewhere safe and anonymous online to be able at my own pace to look through what was available, um, in a, in a real safe and anonymous way, in a, in, in my own time. And that's kind of why we, um, I say we, why I set up Stand Tall. Um, the reason why it's called Stand Tall is, again, there's, there's a theme here with writing in my life. Um, I wrote all the way through that relationship just to kind of help me. Um, and the final day that I wrote anything, I wrote, one day I will stand tall again. And so I took stand tall from that because there are days where, especially when I've done a lot of speaking, public speaking about it, there are days where it gets a little bit heavy because you start to remember some of the stuff that's happened. But in saying stand tall, I was like, right, that will keep me going. Even on those days I'm like, no, I can't do this anymore. Anytime I'm making a difference, standing tall again, you're building yourself back up. Um, and, and that's basically what I've been doing. Um, so Hold your head up high, don't let anybody else get you down. Exactly, exactly. And so it, it doesn't necessarily have to do with the books, but it goes to my mantra of what do I want to do? I just want to make the world a better place. So the kind of two projects, I guess, are trying to do that. Well, this should hopefully keep you busy. Uh, and just a bit of a reminder to our listeners that they can pop on to Sophie Say's official www.esthermuller.com to find out more, to get the books, sign up and find out everything. You're on Instagram as well, and I must say I've thoroughly loved chatting to you today, Esther. Thank you for talking to us here at Women's and Men's Radio Station, and I wish you the best of luck, which I don't think you're gonna need it. Oh, thank you, it's been so lovely to speak to you. Thank you so much for having me on, I really appreciate it.