Get Booked – July Taster Special, Shooters Ebb & Flo, Give A Book Sarah Needs Saving

Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield and this is Get Booked for Women's and Men's radio station. Now today I have a little bit of a different show in store for you. We're going to look back at some of my favorite shows over the last few months. We are going to be looking at the conversation I had with Ali Palmer about giveabook.org. We are then going to be looking at the interview with Julia Boggio and her fantastic rom-com Shooters. Then we're going to be looking at DCR Bond and her book Sarah Needs Saving. And finally, we will be having a sneaky peek at the show that aired a few weeks ago, Dr. Iskie Britton with Ebb and Flow: Connect with the Patterns and Powers of Water. There's just going to be a little snippet of those 4 shows, and you can get the full hour-long editions of each of these by popping onto womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on our SoundCloud. And some exciting news: in the next month or so, my own book is going to be released, and I'm extremely excited but incredibly nervous at the same time. It's, um, it's gonna be interesting to see my book baby come to life. I'm sure many guests on the show have felt the same, but it isn't fiction, it's non-fiction. And I can be an acquired taste at the best of times, and I've put a lot of honesty and ridiculousness and hopefully helpful information in my first ever published book, which is entitled 20 Weeks. It's going to be available from the 18th of August for you to absorb Enjoy, identify with parts maybe, and hopefully learn from. And what is important, and hopefully I get this across in the book, is the importance of understanding ourselves and our motivations. The more we understand about ourselves, the more we can either make positive changes or understand what we do and don't deserve. In doing so, maybe we can learn to have compassion for other people's situations that we may not understand and can be less judgmental over. Nail-biting time. But you know what, sometimes we need to do hard things and help each other get through this kind of crazy ride of life. However, I am going to need somebody to interview me on my own show, so if you would like to possibly do that, please do get in touch and maybe you can co-present in Get Booked here on Women's and Men's Radio Station for a whole episode. You can get in touch with me via my website at hazelbutterfield.com or on my various socials. On Twitter, it's @nuttybutty, and on Instagram, it's @nuttybutty10, or specifically for the show, @getbookedwrs. Um, hopefully, hopefully, those of you that read the book, we can have a little bit of a giggle at life because it really can be bonkers. There's definitely lots in there, but very, very Nervous. Hmm. Okay, let's kick off today's Get Booked with looking back at one of our recent shows. Today on Get Booked, I'm talking to Ali Palmer from giveabook.org.uk. Give a Book works in a practical and targeted way, project by project, to help spread the pleasure of reading. They promote books and the pleasure of reading in the hardest-to-reach places. Their core belief is that to pass on a good book, to give a book, is a transaction of lasting worth. They work in prisons, schools, and with disadvantaged children and young people throughout the UK. This is at the heart of everything they do and a perfect guest for Get Booked. Ali, thank you for joining us on the show, and And let's kick off with you telling us a little bit about you and your role at giveabook.org.uk. Very good, well done. So I'm Ali, I'm the Funding and Partnerships Manager, which is a very grand title for saying that I spend quite a lot of my time doing fundraising through trusts and foundations, and also talking to other people that we can work with more closely. And we have lots of partnerships. We, as you said, our remit is to get books into the hardest-to-reach places, so prisons. We partnered with an organisation that's been running for about 20 years called Prison Reading Groups, and they're now part of our— the Give a Book charity. And they do— we like things that do exactly what they say on the tin, so Prison Reading Groups runs prison reading groups. That's good. Perfect. In about 50 prisons up and down the country, and they tend to be run by librarians within the prison because one of the stats that's quite interesting is you have to have a prison in— you have to have a library in a prison, you have to have a prison and library, you have to have a library in a prison, but it's not statutory to have a library in a school, which is one of those weird stats that are unbelievable. Strange. I mean, libraries should be statutory everywhere. And that's one of the other things that we do. We work with schools across the country, and there's a big campaign called the Great School Library Campaign to work, which lots of charities like the National Literacy Trust, much bigger charities than us, are making sure that schools have libraries. And we play our part in that, in that we usually fund one school library every year, even a primary or secondary school. And we're just looking now for the school that we'll do for 2023, because we had some funding from the Daily Express. We were their Christmas charity, which is very exciting. So they wrote loads of lovely articles about us, and on the back of that funding, we'll be doing a library. So we're just working out which school that will be. That's incredible. I mean, to be honest, the idea of someone not owning a book is alien to so many of us, but a reality for so many marginalized societies. And the, the thought that you can actually learn something from a book, find solitude in your own space to learn about other people, and to be able to express yourself as well by writing yourself. And being able to be self-taught in something as well, because not all of us can afford to do particular courses as well. And reading just opens the doors for so many people. And even— there's even a fantastic shop on the end of my road that, you know, he says to me, Hazel, I know you're a huge book fan. Whenever you finish with your books, can you put them in the little basket on the end? And they've got two baskets, one for books for people to just help themselves. They don't have to come into the shop, people that just can't afford a book for their child or for themselves. And they've also got a mini food bank as well. And there's a book bank and a food bank, and I just think it's an absolutely fantastic concept. And me and the kids, we read so much, and it's just, you know, we've got maybe 1,000 books in our house, and we still manage to give away a good 100 or so a year. Yeah, and yeah, I think it's, it's, it's really interesting, and it's Also, in prison, reading age people is not necessarily that high. A lot of people left school without qualifications, and reading can be something that they're concerned about, or they're worried about, or if they had a bad experience at school and reading wasn't their thing, then thinking about joining a reading group can be a bit scary. But we, our whole operation is about reading for pleasure. So the groups exist just to read for fun. It's not like school. We make sure it feels very different from a classroom setting, and so people kind of can feel like they can access the books. And it's run— the book clubs run exactly like a book club you or I would be in, in that they choose books, the books go in, they read them over the month, and then they meet the following month and talk about them. And that's one aspect of what we do. But one of the other things that's really important is keeping prisoner parents connected with their families because that reduces reoffending rates. So one of the projects we run is called Raising Readers, where we send in a selection of books for all ages. They can choose a book to send home to their child, or they can bring the book out to— send the book out to their child, or when they come in for a family day. It's such a good way to connect, isn't it? It's really good, and I think that's been a really interesting project for us. So we try and do projects, we also do family days, so we'll go into prison with a load of books, and when kids come in to see their family member, they can choose a book to read there and then and take it home with them. And there's something about the connection of reading together and sharing a book that means it's easier to keep those connections going. You're not talking about all the stuff that's going on, you're not talking about difficulty things, you're just sharing a book. And that works right across the board. We've had, you know, stories of people saying, actually, I sent a book home to my adult daughter who I've not really been able to have a conversation with, and actually we've talked, we've started a conversation again about all the other stuff we need to talk about based on our conversation about the book. So that was the starting point for making new connections and building back those links, which are really important. So that's our PRISM, you know, the PRISM work I think is all about connection, and it's books that bring it. And as you know, as you said, you know, books give you an opportunity to step in someone else's shoes and find out about the wider world. I think also just the power of being able to read as well gives you agency as well. I mean, I know that when I was teaching both my children to read, I mean, I'm probably not the most patient of people, but you know, when it comes to teaching people how to read, I think I'm probably a little bit more advantaged than others because I love it so much and I've done it so much. I've gone into schools to help children one-on-one to read, and the frustrations that can bring already into an already hectic family. I really do feel for parents who, you know, they have to turn around for the 86th time in one evening before they cook dinner and do the washing, that it's the, not a completely different word, because it's so hard. Once you've got it, it's like riding a bike. Once you've got it, it's fantastic. But if you think about how hard that is, to teach a 3, 4, 5-year-old and then look at that in terms of trying to teach an adult who already has certain issues of anxiety around this because it didn't work the first time round and they're already in a situation that's already quite challenging. That once that happens, I mean, that's incredible and you must love your job being able to actually enrich people to, to be able to have that control agency over their own lives. And once it's done properly— yeah, and it's really important. I mean, we're— the project we do isn't teaching people to read. We've got a new project running, um, which is all about emergent readers, which is exactly that, working with the Shannon Trust. Um, the Shannon Trust do lots of reading one-to-one, exactly as you're saying, to get people reading. Our project— our project's all about the joy of reading and reading together as a group. And so sometimes people come to us after they've learnt to read, or sometimes people learn to read because they want to be part of the group. So there's lots of different ways that people come to the prison reading groups, but our focus is on reading for pleasure rather than literacy and learning to read. I think once people— sorry, once people actually have access to books, so they can kind of teach themselves a certain element if you have the basics, but it's having the access to books to kind of practice that skill. Yeah, and having the access to the right books as well. I think we do a project called Books for First Nighters, which is exactly, exactly as it sounds. When you are sentenced, you go directly from the— I can't speak today, which is really unhelpful when you're having a chat about speaking. Well, this is my job. I constantly have to either do live or pre-recorded radio, and sometimes I forget halfway through a sentence either what I was talking about or suddenly just forget a word and I just stumble. It doesn't help that I drink a lot of double espresso either. Right now, time on Get Booked for today's guest, Giulia Bogio. With the book Shooters, which has become a bestseller. What a fun book. The majority of industries have an incestuous undertone at the best of times, and photography certainly is no different. Well, apart from the whole intimate nature of the work, the romantic settings and celebrity lifestyle, but obviously other than that. Sometimes we need to break patterns in our behavior to get different results, to break away from what's not working for us. But then again, it isn't always down to our behavior, and we need to explore the possibility of something new not going the same way as past relationships. Stella in Shooters is a deliciously feisty, sexy, warm, and driven, yet a totally clumsy character who is determined to become a successful wedding photographer, so long as she doesn't become distracted by older patterns of behavior that has not served her well. The whole book is full of strong characters, especially the women, and yet they all have their fallible quirks that just makes them human and relatable. As I said before, it's a great fun book. Julia, thank you so much for joining us on Get Booked. Yeah, no worries. Thanks for having me on, and congratulations on becoming a bestseller. Thank you. You've done so well. We're going to talk a little bit, um, later on in the show about how you have done some incredible marketing for this book. But first of all, let's just kick off telling our listeners a little bit about you. Who are you? Oh goodness, who am I? I am— that's a big question for this time in the morning. Now, so I'm Julia Bojo. I'm originally from New Jersey, but I've now lived in the UK for longer than I lived in America, actually. And I started my working life as a copywriter, and I did that for about 8 years, and and then I discovered photography on a 6-month trip through South America. And so when I got back from that, I retrained as a photographer and I entered the wonderful world of wedding photography, which is of course where I've drawn a lot of my knowledge for, for writing this book. So yeah, and that's it. I'm a mother. I've got 2 kids. I'm also, well, I don't know if you want to talk about this, I'm a YouTube— I was an original YouTube star as well. We do want to— do not think we're getting away. We will be talking about YouTube for sure. Okay, well, I'll just leave that little Easter egg for later then. But yeah, no, that's, that's me in a nutshell. Brilliant. Yeah. Well, so Stella, the character, I must say I had so much fun and this is what I love about books. Because you can find out so much about each other and about different industries. And we can talk about how we can make mistakes in life and how we can overcome them. And then sometimes we give us— we put ourselves under so much pressure to succeed or keep on going over past mistakes that sometimes aren't even necessarily something that's just completely down to ourselves. Um, and I think Shooters really covers that, and it's It's super fun, and I like finding out a little bit more about the photography industry as well. And yeah, I think, I think you can, you can always tell when a book has been written by somebody who knows the industry that they're talking about. It's like, you know, like when doctors watch Grey's Anatomy and they're probably like, oh, that didn't happen that way, or, you know, that kind of thing. I didn't— I wanted the details to be right in this book, and I definitely know the industry, so Definitely do. I want to know, what was your— what was the process like for writing this book? Did you have to do any additional research? Did you have to kind of call in some favors from some of your friends in the industry? Well, I mean, I do— I'm always putting questions on Facebook for all my photography friends, like, oh, can you tell me a story from a wedding where this happened or that happened? And they're always too happy to pour their hearts out to me. But, but yeah, no, a lot of it has just come from my own experience and, and then a lot from my imagination as well. I mean, there's nothing in the book that actually happens, you know, was 100% what happened in real life. But, but yeah, no, it was an interesting process and I wrote it over the pandemic. So I mean, I couldn't go to Cliveden to look around and remember the details. I mean, I've probably got some stuff wrong there, but I had to use my memory and the internet from the time that I shot a wedding at Cliveden. And also, you know, the lakes in Italy for that section of the book. I just had to use the internet and my own memories of Italy. So it was, yeah, harder to do during the pandemic. I bet it was quite helpful actually. I mean, first of all, writing a book keeps you out of trouble in the pandemic, but also imagining all these fantastic destinations and locations even in the UK. When you couldn't actually go to them. I suppose it's part of your little mental health journey, really. Yeah, I agree. It was, it was very good for me to be able to sort of escape the hell of the pandemic. But also I took a, I took a writing course over the time. So I was doing the Curtis Brown 6-month selective course and I met my writing tribe through that, which was extremely helpful in, you know, getting through the pandemic and, and, you know, honing my craft as a writer as well. So Yeah, that, that will always be part of my, my memory of that time. Well, talking about honing your craft, I mean, um, when you release a book, quite often you get PR people involved just to kind of help you connect with many different people, uh, who can help you promote your book. But you have done the research, and I, I think I recall you saying in the past that you've done little courses as well, um, on how to market yourself and your book in a fun way, in the same way that all these 19, 20-year-olds use TikTok. I mean, I would love to be able to do some of the things that you've put out on social media. There's so much fun, but it works, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's another creative outlet for me. And that's the thing, because I've got a degree in marketing and, you know, I was in advertising for a long time and I ran my own business. So if I can't market something, there's something wrong. But But yeah, I mean, when you look at something like Instagram and whatnot, I think the content that people really relate to is when you're creating something entertaining but also making a point at the same time. And since I've started doing those videos, I can tell that I've definitely had an uptick in followers and whatnot. Long may it continue. But yeah, they're fun as well. Marketing should be fun. That's, that's my number one you know, saying about marketing. I think when it comes across as being fun, it helps people want to engage as well, because there are so many hints and tips and tricks that people use out there to market themselves. And yeah, you use it for fun and just have, have a great time. And it's definitely worked for you. She just seems to be everywhere, and I've seen various pictures of people, especially photographers, in random destinations reading Susan. Well, that was part of my campaign. So, you know, before the book launched, I reached out to my photography network and I asked certain people, you know, would you take pictures of yourself reading Shooters for my launch campaign? And then the idea was that everybody would put this picture up on, you know, social media at the same time on the day of my launch and then tell people about the book and ask them to buy it. And I dropped the price of the book as well on digital. And so they all did this. And I have to say, I mean, the photos that they came up with were amazing. I mean, they weren't just iPhone photos. They were, they were really professional photos. And, and, you know, I'll always be grateful to them all for taking the time to, to do that for me. I think it, yeah, it's lovely. And, and obviously, as you said, you've written about what you know. You know photography, but also another theme in the book is dancing. Oh yes, here we go. You are a dancer. You are, you know what's happening now. You are a dancer. And I do believe that you reenacted a dance scene on your— was it your wedding day? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but first of all, I think calling me a dancer is probably stretching the truth a little bit. I did a dance at my wedding. You knew how to dance, though. It was a professional dance, something that you knew something about. You absolutely smashed it out of the park. It was the famous dance from Dirty Dancing. Yeah, yeah. And so, and it was back when, you know, not everybody stood there throughout every waking moment with their phones. So there was, um, so it's quite a, a really simple video that kind of got picked up on YouTube and it did really well. If it was now, it would have, you know, millions of views on TikTok and Instagram and it'd be absolutely everywhere. But it was something that went viral back before things really Yeah, back when viral— so easy. Exactly. Yeah. It's like the meaning of viral has really changed in the past, you know, 15 years since we got married or 17 years. My God, it's been a long time. But yeah, back then viral was something that you sent around to your friends, a video that was on YouTube, and then you talked about it around the water cooler. And nowadays there's just so much viral content that, You know, nothing really gets picked out of the crowd anymore unless it's, you know, really different. But back then, yeah, we put it up and the next day we got a call from the Metro and we had like 200 views and we were so excited. And we put it up 2 years after we actually got married. So, you know, it wasn't filmed with the purpose of going on to YouTube. We just put it up to show friends. And so we did. We had 200 views, Metro calls and want to do a piece on us. Fine. So we did it. And the next day my husband got onto the tube to, you know, to go to work. And, but there were no Metros, they were all out. So he got a Times and suddenly was reading it on the tube and he just looked over at the woman next to him who was reading the Metro. And, you know, we expected like a column inch, you know, not, not much. I mean, not a big story. It was an entire page. It was the entire, you know, third page. I was a page 3 girl. And, and he's just He's like, can I have your newspaper? Can I switch with you? And she's like, why? And he's like, because that's me. And she's like, oh my God. And then he got off the tube at the next stop to call me and tell me about this. And I said, well, you're not gonna believe this, but Richard and Judy have been on the phone. And it just went from there. It just went crazy and it got crazy and crazier. And then, you know, and then we went to Greece to kind of, to get away from all the celebrity, you know. Oh, downtime. As you do. And the plane landed, put my phone back on, check my messages. And we had a message from the Oprah Winfrey Show. And as you do. And they're like, yeah, we want to fly you out. We're doing an episode about this new YouTube thing. And so yeah, they flew us out and they kept saying, oh, just learn just learn half the first half of the dance. That's fine. You just have to do the first dance. And I kept thinking, but it's the second half. That's the best part. But anyway, so we did that. And, you know, she calls us up on stage and she's chatting to us. And then she's like, well, you know, we don't want to talk to you. We want to see you dance. And I'm like, okay. So the music starts and it starts. I remember it started in the wrong place. So we kind of had to catch up because we're not professional dancers and, you know, it kind of threw us off. So anyway, we're trying to do the dance and the audience is like politely clapping along and suddenly they just start going absolutely crazy. And I'm just thinking to myself that I'm not that good. And I just look over my husband's shoulder and I see Patrick Swayze walking towards us. Now, bizarrely, I've actually watched this video and I mean, I've got cold heart, you know, it takes a lot for me to kind of well up. And I was like, this is so powerful because it's not staged in any way on your part. You're like, what? Your husband has to kind of nip out the way because Patrick Swayze takes over for the rest of the dance. And it's just— I, I, I think I pushed him out of the way. I'm like, you go over there, darling, I'm dancing with Patrick Swayze. So yeah, that was a good day. And then, but no, my husband doesn't like to be, you know, pushed aside. So after I finished dancing with Patrick, he yells across the stage, he says, Patrick, let's do the lift. And he literally launches all 12 stone of himself at Patrick Swayze. And he like kind of went down on one knee and caught James in his arms. They didn't do the full lift, obviously. My husband's very heavy. But yeah, it was It was a great moment. I mean, that's one hell of a claim to fame, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. But so of course I had to put a dance in the book. Yeah, I'm— my idea, I think I'm gonna put a Dirty Dancing Easter egg in like each of my, my books from now on. I've just— I'm just about— I'll probably finish book 2 today actually after this interview, and, uh, and there's already— there's a Dirty Dancing Easter egg in there, so You know, we'll see. Brilliant. Well, I did, I was doing a little bit of research. I popped on to juliebojo.com and I didn't realize until earlier this week that there is, it's a trilogy and there's another book coming out, I think the 31st of August. Is that correct? Yes. Yeah. Chasing the Light. Yeah. It's, it's almost finished today. Yeah. And, and that will be out if I can bring it forward a little bit, I will, because, you know, being self-published, I can do that. But yeah, no, it's a really exciting book and it follows the story of the assistant of Connor Knight. So Krish, I don't know if you remember Krish Kapadia. So it's a second chance story about what happens when his ex-girlfriend comes onto the scene. She's a wedding videographer, he's a wedding photographer, but he's seriously involved with somebody, about to propose to somebody else. And And she has her own secrets as well. So it's, it's a really, it's a, it's actually a story that's really close to my heart and probably even in a way more personal than, than the last one. So yeah, no, I'm excited to put it out into the world. Now, are you going to— is Stella and Connor going to be featuring much in this as well? Yes. Yes. She actually does have a storyline as well. They have a storyline which kind of leads the breadcrumbs to book 3. And, uh, and she has a point of view as well. So there's actually 3 points of view in the book, which I know is probably a little bit out of the ordinary for a romance novel. But, you know, I— it is part of the trilogy, and I think that, you know, from friends that have read it, they say that it's really nice to be back in Stella's head for those chapters. So, um, feels like an old friend. Now, as promised, we have the author DCR Bond chatting to us here on Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station, and she has written the novel Sarah Needs Saving, due to be released on the 5th of July of this year. And, um, what do you do when your neatly laid life starts to topple? Sarah never expected to be blackmailed, especially not by someone so close. Sarah hadn't expected to be receiving criminal hush money either. As a respectable Exeter University professor's wife, neither were really the done thing, so I gather. But super-organized Sarah has it all under control, or so she thinks. Initially strong-armed into silence, Sarah is gradually dragged deeper into the underworld as she strives to protect her reputation and the lives of her family and friends. Set in rural North Devon, Sarah Needs Saving is an original and captivating spin on women's fiction with a thrilling edge, frenetic pacing, and confounding twists and turns. And Debbie, thank you so much for joining us on the show. How are you? I'm great, thanks Hazel, and thank you very much for inviting me. It's, it's, it's, it's just lovely to be here. Well, it's great to have you here. I mean, we love chatting about books, and I, I've been reading a little bit about your background, and I love it that after, you know, doing your stint in the corporate world, you've finally come back to what you love, which is writing. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about you? Yeah, I think it's a— I've got quite an eclectic background, uh, because my parents brought us, me and my siblings, up overseas. So although I was born in London, as a very young child we moved out to Jamaica and we spent the first— I spent the first 7 years of my life there. And then after that, we came back in a brief stint in the UK, and then I was out in Africa. So I've really been able to experience a lot of overseas living, and aspects of that I try and bring into some of my novels. There isn't anything of that in this particular novel, Sarah Seed, Sara needs Sepfig. But there is in other novels, in future novels, I hope to be, I know that there will be aspects of internationalism in there. So I spent my childhood overseas, and then I was, as you say, in corporate world through until 15, 20 years, 15 years ago. And then I returned to writing, and that was my original childhood love and what I always wanted to do. And in a funny way, the things that you do as a child, they never really leave you, do they? No. And, and, and, and sometimes things that you do well as a child actually will resurface to be what you can be quite good at. And I hope that that's what I managed to do in my writing. Um, yeah, definitely. And I actually read a little bit about where you live now in, um, near Exmoor. I gather you're a dog fan. I am. I've got 3 dogs and I've always had dogs. They're actually— there are 3 dogs at the moment. I have had 4, but just 3 at the moment. And they are the centre of my life. Yes. I mean, you know, they run your route. They give you a routine to life, don't they, dogs? They do indeed. I've got a dog sitting outside the room that I'm recording at the moment saying, "Mum, mum, you forgot to walk me this morning." I was very busy. Oh, never mind. Out and about. Well, she, she's due, she's due, but she wants me to go and throw her in the Thames somewhere where she can have a little bit of a paddle. Um, and yeah, I love it. I absolutely love spending time with my dog, um, especially because I've got two teenage boys who like to ignore me other than when they're hungry or need money. And I'm quite intrigued to find out, um, how do your miniature bull terriers get on with your small flock hens? They have to be kept separate. I actually have dog park stops for the leads for when I go down, because typically I'll go down with the dogs, feed the— hang the— hook them up outside the chicken pen, and they sort of peer in and think, well, maybe, maybe one day she'll forget and let us in. And then I go in and feed the hens and come out and lock afterwards. Otherwise, I think there'd be a bit of a train smash in there. Yeah, you see, the thing is, having a beagle, I, I would assume that I would have a similar issue, but I, I take her on to various places and she looks at horses like they're just a big dog and she's just not interested. And squirrels will stand behind her and kind of mimic her because they know that she just can't be bothered. She's just— yeah, no, all All terriers are the same. They just, they just like to chase and they don't really care what they're chasing. My little, my little chickens look like they could be fair game, so they all come outside the chicken pen. I love that. What a great way to live and what a perfect surrounding for just sitting there and finally going back to your childhood passion of writing. And congratulations on finishing Sarah Needs Saving and having it published. It's available for all of our listeners. From the 5th of July. Now, I do know you've got another book in the works, but first of all, let's talk about Sarah Needs Saving. Um, first of all, um, where did the inspiration come from? Actually, it's a personal experience. I, I, I'll be honest with you, Hazel, it's a personal experience, uh, because the, um, the, the major plotline obviously is, is centered around dementia and what happens with the family and what happens with the third husband of the matriarch. And it happened to— it actually happened within my family that my mother-in-law suffered from dementia. And that was something which I think a lot of listeners will have personal sad experience from. It is quite traumatic seeing seeing someone change in front of you and gradually losing that person. But then that was compounded by when she actually died. And whilst the size of that inheritance was just a tiny fraction compared to what happens in Sarah Needs Saving, the principle was still involved. Been there when she shuffled across the table to my husband a will custodian's card. And she actually did say, you know, well, that's for you for when I shuffle off. And I knew she'd put her affairs in order because she was a— she was— it's not just that I loved her, I admired her. She was a very, very interesting woman. And, um, and so when, when her third husband tried to claim that she'd been— she died intestate. There was something about it that just didn't ring true, right? And there was something about it that didn't ring true, and there was something about it that just piqued my, um, my husband's sort of interest. And, and, and we decided to investigate further, and, and that was inspiration for this book. That was the inspiration for it. Um, so, so it is personal experience. I think it's interesting because, I mean, as I was reading the book, at first you kind of think, um, the ex-husband who's kind of, well, not officially an ex-husband, back on the scene for the mother-in-law, you kind of think it's a tough situation because, like, if you are responsible and you're doing all the hard work, sometimes people have opinions when they're not doing anything. And you kind of covered that quite delicately. If you didn't actually know who was going to be a villain for quite some time because, um, yeah, my family have been through the same situation where, um, my grandma had Alzheimer's and dementia and two of the sisters were close by. One was, um, at least 200 or 300 miles away and the other one was in Australia. So, you know, I think he visited once in the two or three years because it was virtually impossible, and then towards the end with COVID And some of those siblings will never ever speak again. It's, it's a power struggle, it's a guilt issue, sometimes it's a laziness issue, and sometimes it just boils down to money or differing opinions, and it can be a cacophony of horrifically upsetting drama. Hazel, you are so right. I mean, I had that same experience with my mother because having been brought up overseas, my sister lives in Cape Town and my brother lives in Melbourne, Australia. You're right. And I lived, I mean, my mother, when she came back from Africa, settled close to Guildford. Well, that's from where I live in North Devon, that's a 6-hour, depending on the M25, hour trip. And yet, of course, to my sister, my brother, at least I'm in the same country. Yeah. And whenever anything— whenever Mum needed anything, because she was living in sheltered housing, I couldn't drive up and stay the night even. I had to drive all the way up, turn around, and come all the way back. And to my sister and my brother, well, I'm in the country, we can't possibly do it. And you do, you have that guilt. You have that guilt if you don't go. You have that guilt if you do go. You have about leaving. It's, it's incredible. It's an incredible mantle that so many women are forced to put on and, and, and, and, and honor because you love that person and you, you do take it on. You do take that role on. And yet it does cause discord within the family. Do you know what, there's unfortunately so many people are living longer, and so dementia and Alzheimer's are becoming more inevitable. Um, and I mean, my grandma was 96, um, when she finally died. But I have friends who are going through similar situations, and I personally, I stopped seeing my grandma for the last year because it just stressed her out too much. And some people were saying 'Oh, well, you know, you should still come and see her. It's about, you know, you've got to show your face.' I'm like, 'No, it's not. It's about the fact that it stresses her out because she doesn't remember who I am, but she kind of does, but she then feels bad herself because she knows there's something wrong with her.' And I said, sometimes there are a lot of egos involved in what people think they are supposed to do with people who have Alzheimer's and dementia. I have a friend who sister, um, knew that she didn't have a close relationship with her mother. And similarly, you know, it was a tough situation. She had to leave everything to her other sister to take, take on board all of the extra stress and work because they were closer. And so therefore they knew each other more, and it was an easier situation. It's a minefield, absolute minefield. It is a minefield, Hazel, and I had to think long and hard about how Sarah would react in these circumstances, because I think I got it right, because I think Sarah does do, and I think she's right to do, what you did. She decided to stop visiting her mother-in-law when the dementia became too advanced. And I think that sometimes that is the right thing to do, and it is the right thing not just for the person who is still in full control of their mental faculties, But just like Sarah, it was the right thing for— she judged the right thing for her mother-in-law. Yeah. Because she wanted to retain memories of her mother-in-law as she was, as she admired her, not the person that she'd become. Yeah. And it is a really difficult judgment call for a lot of people. And I think you're right, there is pressure on us from all parts of society to just do the right thing, when sometimes the right thing has to be what's right for you. That you actually have to think about your own mental health as well as the person that's suffering. Yeah, and we're only human and we might get it wrong, but also we just need to be a little bit more patient with each other and not be so judgmental about how we all decide to do things. And add an additional layer into that, Mike, the caregiver, was, um, decided to grow some pot to help Sarah's mother-in-law with her ailments, which we all know, um, it's actually proven that it does help. Um, but there's, there's helping and then there's having a full-blown farm and supplying the local drug dealers, isn't there? There is, and to be honest, I thought that was quite an interesting line because in Sarah Needs Saving, it's going on in the walled garden, but, you know, living in rural North Devon, because I think you live in London, don't you? I do, southwest London, yeah. Living in rural North Devon and doing so many walks that I do, it's quite interesting because you can see how isolated some of these farms are. And you do sometimes wonder, you know, well, what could be going on in there? And although this, this activity is going on in the privacy of a walled garden, there's, there's ample scope for all sorts of things to be going on in our rural countryside. Right now, time on Get Booked for Women's and Men's radio station for Ebb and Flow. By Iskie Britton and Dr. Iskie Britton. I'm sure many of you listening will understand the concept of being calmer when by the ocean or needing a swim to clear the mind, either wild or otherwise. We know that our mental health suffers if we neglect having enough time in nature. The long winters will attest to that. Although we know it, we rarely stop to analyze why, what the science is. Ebb and Flow, today's book, helps to decipher this while also looking at the important elements— excuse the pun— of how our propensity to take water and its often unrealized properties for granted to our detriment. Now, today's guest and author, Iske, is joining us now. Let's stuck into this. Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks so much for having me, Hazel. Hello from the west coast of Ireland. Hey, uh, yeah, I must say I'm a huge water fan. I love being in it in any capacity, uh, a huge swimmer. Sometimes the best way just to end a day is to go and do a bit of wild swimming. Um, I love the ocean, the idea of just taking the dog down to the beach on a weekend when I need to get away from London. It completely Ctrl+Alt+Deletes me. I love it, and I do not appreciate it anywhere near as much as I thought I did. I have devoured Ebb and Flow. I have learned so much, and you don't even realize so much of what's going on around us is actually to our detriment. You sometimes see all these, um, wind farms in the ocean, and you see dams, and you just think, wow, what an incredible construction. We don't actually understand science behind it, what it's doing to our ecosystem, and we don't go into depth about the importance of what we are doing to our waters and just the general cycle of life. And I, I've really enjoyed learning about it, and I think a lot of us are just completely in denial or blasé or too busy to think about it. And it's, it's gonna get too late if we're not careful. Yeah, it's wonderful to hear you've been enjoying diving into Ebb and Flow. And yeah, we do. Yeah, I couldn't resist. But yeah, really looking at how our, I suppose, our human relationship with water and how it's changing, but also how that relationship with water can change us, and in particular the impact on our health and well-being, both positive and negative, depending on the health of our water. Well, yeah, I mean, you do— I do read a lot of articles on wild swimming. I do absolutely love it. There's, um, there's a place near me actually that it's a completely non-motorized lake, and they're going through one of these, um, change.orgs at the moment to try and stop the flow of certain elements of the Thames and certain sewage being pumped into it because they're trying yet again to just kind of ruin another body of water. Um, people are trying their best, but there's a lot lot to be done. Um, and it was great hearing about, in Ebb and Flow, about all the blue health initiatives to get people to connect with our water environments around us and, and just to try and involve ourselves with the cause. Yeah, and I think for me as like a blue health researcher, what I'm most interested in is looking at that connection that we have, and very much coming out of from exploring what a truly reciprocal typical relationship with water looks like. So an awareness and understanding of how it can, you know, benefit our health and well-being, as you said at the start, how we sort of feel naturally drawn to water, to, you know, we feel calmer around it, it alters our mood, all those kinds of things. And then also recognizing at the same time that access to like healthy water is becoming increasingly challenging in all parts of the world. And of course then more recently in the UK in particular with all the raw sewage outflow into some of the most beautiful bathing waters at a time when people really rely on it so much for that kind of respite and relaxation in a world that's increasingly challenging, you could say. Well, yes, definitely. I mean, I was one of those kids, and I'm sure— I gather you've just had a baby. Congratulations. Thank you. And I'm sure your baby is going to be very similar to how I was as a child, and, you know, dangerously so. I would jump in any body of water I could. You know, it was literally like a grab her, we're about to go near a stream and I'd just be running off. And I've always been a strong swimmer, um, but I absolutely love it. But water is, it's fickle, it's supportive, but it's dangerous and we need to appreciate it. But also when we do appreciate it, and if we have got access to being able to learn to appreciate water properly, it's incredibly empowering, isn't it? It is. I think like water and our water bodies really kind of mirror how we're doing as a society, you know, because it connects everything. Water is the carrier of, you know, it's a flow of information. It kind of takes all of who we are, you know, including our waste. And it's, but it's continually cycling that like all around the world and through all the bodies on the planet, human and more than human. And so It's— it touches everything and then also carries everything with it and in it. And so it really does mirror the health of how we are as individuals and our communities and then as a society. I think the current state of most of the world's waters being so degraded, especially compared to any other environment, they're in kind of rapid decline, is a reflection of that kind of separation we've had from nature in our modern society. And so really, you know, the motivation behind Ebb and Flow was looking at ways to restore those those kind of lost connections, uh, both individually but also kind of collectively too. Well, you actually discuss in the back— it's actually near the beginning, I think about page 25-ish— you refer to the kind of historical issues on accessibility to water, to learning to swim, particularly in regards to, um, Black people. And I wanted to point out, have you heard about the Color the Water campaign out in California? You? Uh, no, actually I haven't. Oh, uh, it's David Milana. He set up a surf school for the, um, BIPOC community to encourage them to take up space in the ocean, where they offer free surf lessons to marginalized communities who haven't in, in the past have access or have not been— it's not been kind of bred into the culture because of historical issues. It's fantastic charity and an organization. Go and check it out. Color the Water, spelled the American way. Oh, Color the Water, brilliant. And I'm hearing about more and more of those as well. I mean, there's like Black Girls Surf, another initiative based in the States as well, and Native Like Water. So kind of reclaiming that indigenous connection to water and access to it again that would have been kind of taken away during colonization. And then closer to home in the UK, have Reclaim the Sea, a kind of amazing initiative kind of happening to restore, reclaim the sea as a safe and healing space for refugees, for many of whom have had a traumatic experience with water and, you know, trying to cross it to reach safety. And then, you know, it's incredible to also see the transformative power that's possible, like the healing that's possible through water because it has such— leaves such a powerful imprint on us. But then that space really needs to be held and facilitated to hold that, to enable that. For really diverse groups of people, because it does tend to be very exclusive even when we think of like water sports and surfing. And there's, there's such like, there's certain stereotypes out there of how you're supposed to look or be if you are a surfer, for example. And so it's great to see more and more initiatives really challenging that, that narrative. And, you know, just really kind of worrying statistics out there that when I was researching the book, and this is everywhere in the world, but the gender inequality equality and the ability to swim. And just how there's such a gender imbalance there in every country in the world where women and girls are less likely to be able to swim than the men and the boys. And that's more pronounced then in obviously lower income places and in developing countries with huge consequences, I think, both in terms of limiting access to the experiences of such joy and healing that we can have through things like Blue Health and Ocean Therapy, but also then from a safety point point of view. And we're living in a, you know, especially in coastal areas where there's, you know, increasing risk of flooding, natural disasters, and climate change, and women and girls just less able to escape those situations, which we saw then happen, like, during the 2004 tsunami in particular in Southeast Asia. Yeah, I was reading quite a lot of the historical Elements in Ebb and Flow towards the end of the book about why these— there are these gender differences. I mean, there's this drowning women because they're supposedly witches, you know, if you sink you're not a witch, which you drown, if you float you're a witch so you get killed, uh, or there's, there's issues of, um, you know, back in the day when it was women who were expected to kind of get, pay all the water and carry it back. And so they developed a hatred of it. There were a lot of historical issues surrounding why there is this separatedness. Yeah, it was interesting researching it because it was felt like this almost perversion of water as sacred. And water is very much holding that more feminine energy of like the healing power, um, being a source of life, um, and all those qualities. So we have so much in our, you know, in our mythology, that associates to water bodies and rivers and lakes, and in particular with that, with the feminine energy, with the goddess. And they were kind of— these water bodies were all revered for that kind of power and the embodiment of it. And then seeing with the arrival of, especially during the industrial era, the shift then of water as this commodity, something to extract, a resource, or to be controlled and managed, which is continuing into today. And so then the shift in all of those narratives, and you see then this perversion where water then is kind of used against women, um, when power is very much taken away. And then of course it becomes actually associated with the death and repression of women, or as something— as this is a real burden to literally carry, with women being the kind of water carriers the world over, with having to provide water for, for families. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and you've been listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. Catch me here on Women's Radio Station every day of the week at 5 PM and every Tuesday at 4 PM on Men's Radio Station. And you can catch up on all our previous shows at womensradiostation.com. Www.annemarie.coach.com/shows/getbooked. Enjoy the rest of your day.