Get Booked – Ali Palmer, Give a Book 220523

Hello, you're listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield and a huge book fan, so I love doing this show. Get Booked is all about talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different guest each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. Last week on the show, we had a compilation of author-read extracts of their book, a little bit of a try before you buy, um, and I know quite a few of you loved listening to those, so thank you for all the fantastic messages. You can get in touch with me via hazelbutterfield.com or directly on Instagram at Get Booked WRS. Quick reminder, you can catch up on previous shows at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on our SoundCloud. Today we have an absolutely incredible show in store for you. We're going to be talking to Ali Palmer from giveabook.com. Org.uk. Please feel free to go and pop onto the website and have a quick look. Give a Book works in a practical and targeted way, project by project, to help spread the pleasure of reading. They promote books and the pleasure of reading in the hardest-to-reach places. Their core belief is that to pass on a good read, to give a book— see what they did there— is a transaction of lasting worth, and they work in prisons, schools, and with disadvantaged children and young people throughout the UK. This is at the heart of everything they do, and they're perfect guests for GetBooked. I'm sure you'll agree. There are many ways that you can actually help with giveabook.org.uk, which Ali's going to be telling us a little bit more about. I think for many of us book fans out there, the idea of someone not owning a book is quite alien to many, but such a reality for so many marginalized societies. And it's going to be an absolutely fantastic conversation. Now, before we go on to chat to Ali at Gibibook, we do have some book reviews that I recently posted up on hazelbutterfield.com. .com, and as ever, if you do come across a book that you've absolutely loved, I'd love to hear about it. But maybe you have your own book blog and you'd like to send in a recording reading out some of your latest book reviews. Please do get in touch with me at hazel@hazelbutterfield.com. Now, woo-hoo! The latest blog is entitled Reading One Book Is Like Eating One Potato Chip. I don't know about you, but as soon as I finish a book, I already have the next one. It's like I don't even stop to have a kind of minute or two to myself. I'm straight on the next one, and I absolutely love it. So first up, a book I want to tell you about is a recent guest on Get Booked, and it's Hotel 21 by Santa Rich. This is such a sympathetically written, intriguing, and relatable story of belonging, coping mechanisms, psychodynamics, and how wonderful an earth-shattering life can be, often simultaneously. Noel, the main character, is a survivor. She does what she needs to to get by in life without having to rely on anyone because that is all she knows. Sometimes that involves acquiring random and useless items from the hotel rooms that she cleans, because it is an art form, especially not to be caught. The thrill she gets from her success and precise methodology gives her purpose and a buzz. Well, until it doesn't. And eventually she meets some girls at Hotel 21, which makes for quite an interesting change in how she wants to proceed with her life. However, um, the book has so many different layers to it. But importantly, before I go away next weekend, I am going to be cataloging everything that is currently in my vanity case before my ex goes ultra. Um, yeah, brilliant. Absolutely loved that one. And I loved my chat recently with Sanja Rich as well. She's got such a dirty sense of humor, which is brilliant. Loved her. Now the next one I want to tell you about is The Ones Who Are Hidden. This is a Whitecliff Bay mystery book, and it's actually book 4 by Kerry Wilkinson. And being a huge fan of Kerry Wilkinson's Jessica Daniels series— I think there's like 14 books in the Jessica Daniels series, and I've read them all— I was super happy and intrigued to give this one a whirl. Written quite noticeably by the same author, the same character depth, intrigue, ability to hook you in whether you've read the preceding books or not. Amateur sleuth Millie Westlake, the main character who gravitates towards anything a bit weird in Whitesmith Bay, can't help but get involved. When her son's guitar teacher enlists her sleuth skills to uncover the mystery of a random tattoo that he finds behind his ear that he doesn't ever recall getting, nor does the random stranger in the next town who also has the same hidden tattoo. Just how sinister can a mini Daisy tattoo be? Seriously, go and get the book, read it and find out. It's one of those ones that you blink and you miss it. It's gone so quickly. He's got such a perfect style of writing that you just kind of involve yourself. It's one of those ones that gets read within a couple of days and you suddenly go, whoa, what happened? Um, but yeah, absolutely fantastic. Next up, another book that I would love to tell you about is Moths by Jane Hennigan. Now, we did interview Jane on GetBooked possibly over a month ago, so please do free— feel free to go and check it out on our SoundCloud. Now, I really don't know where to start with this one. It's such a clever and introspective fictional look at a world in which men had to be contained and sedated for their own safety, leaving women in charge following on from a plague of moss carrying an infection that attacks the male's central nervous system, rendering them either a blue, where they die pretty quickly, or affecting their whole psyche that turns them into prolifically violent and murderous manics. However, we still need to procreate to keep humanity alive. The men need to be cared for, both those infected and those from being infected. The story is told from two perspectives, um, and it's told from when the first infection happens to 40 years later. Um, and 40 years on, when the world is evolving, anyone younger than 40 has no real understanding of how it was before. It's inconceivable that these terrified men protected in confinement with limited knowledge and uses, how they could ever rule the world. Could a potential vaccine be the answer? Decisions need to be made about what is best for everyone's futures. Those originally infected are dying off. The only men left are those born since the pandemic that no longer have inherent ideas of superiority or expectation. There's so many complex ideas, opinions, and basic human rights issues to be addressed in this book, and it's quite frankly brilliantly written. I absolutely loved it. Now, um, I am going to tell you about another book, which is a recent book that Ed on the chat— Ed on GetBooked— and towards the end of the show, I'm just going to do you a little a snippet of our chat with the author Deborah Stone because it was such a fun chat. She's actually— I think it's her second or third time on Get Booked now. She just keeps on releasing these fantastic books. Um, and the discussion is about Semi-Detached, which is about a couple who move in next door to Amanda and Bill, a couple already distant and barely functioning, both riddled with their own issues of dissatisfaction with life and how they understand it. The new couple are vibrant, swanky, full of life and potential promise that could rub off on them and bring them out of their reverie. It even starts to work until, like anything, it doesn't, and it actually implodes. If something is too good to be true, maybe it is all an act and actions have consequences. It's just a great domestic noir, one of my favorite genres actually. So if you were thinking of recommending anything, I am a huge fan of domestic noir. Um, I mean, to be honest, I like any books that kind of— fiction or non-fiction— that kind of look at the human psyche and make it, you know, even people who are riddled with issues, which, you know, most normal people Kind of, ah, I love these ideas that we can just kind of humanize it and be forgiving and have less shame around the fact that we're all different. We've all had different paths that we've had to go down, I guess. Um, so yeah, pop on to hazelbutterfield.com. There's various book reviews up on there and let me know what you think. Now it is time to chat to today's guest. Ali Palmer from giveabook.org.uk. Today on Get Booked, I'm talking to Ali Palmer from giveabook.org.uk. Give a Book works in a practical and targeted way, project by project, to help spread the pleasure of reading.. They promote books and the pleasure of reading in the hardest-to-reach places. Their core belief is that to pass on a good book, to give a book, is a transaction of lasting worth. They work in prisons, schools, and with disadvantaged children and young people throughout the UK. This is at the heart of everything they do and a perfect guest for Get Booked. Ali, thank you for joining us on the show, and And let's kick off with you telling us a little bit about you and your role at giveabook.org.uk. Very good, well done. So I'm Ali, I'm the Funding and Partnerships Manager, which is a very grand title for saying that I spend quite a lot of my time doing fundraising through trusts and foundations, and also talking to other people that we can work with more closely, and we have lots of partnerships. We, as you said, our remit is to get books into the hardest-to-reach places, so prisons. We partnered with an organisation that's been running for about 20 years called Prison Reading Groups, and they're now part of our— the Give a Book charity. And they do— we like things that do exactly what they say on the tin, so Prison Reading Groups runs prison reading groups. That's good. Alfex, in about 50 prisons up and down the country, and they tend to be run by librarians within the prison because one of the stats that's quite interesting is you have to have a prison in— you have to have a library in a prison, you have to have a prison and library, you have to have a library in a prison, um, but it's not statutory to have a library in a school, which is one of those weird stats. Unbelievable. I mean, libraries should be statutory everywhere. And that's one of the other things that we do. We work with schools across the country, and there's a big campaign called the Great School Library Campaign to work, which lots of charities like the National Literacy Trust, much bigger charities than us, are making sure that schools have libraries. And we play our part in that, in that we usually fund one school library every year, even a primary or secondary school. And we're just looking now um, for the school that we'll do for 2023, because we had some funding from, um, the Daily Express. We were their Christmas, um, charity, which is very exciting. So they wrote loads of lovely articles about us, and on the back of that funding, uh, we'll be doing a library. So we're just working out which school that will be. That's incredible. I mean, to be honest, the idea of someone not owning a book is alien to so many of us, but a reality for so many marginalized societies. And the, the thought that you can actually learn something from a book, find solitude in your own space to learn about other people, and to be able to express yourself as well by writing yourself. And being able to be self-taught in something as well, because not all of us can afford to do particular courses as well. And reading just opens the doors for so many people. And even— there's even a fantastic shop on the end of my road that, you know, he says to me, Hazel, I know you're a huge book fan. Whenever you finish with your books, can you put them in the little basket on the end? And they've got two baskets, one for books for people to just help themselves. They don't have to come into the shop, for people that just can't afford a book for their child or for themselves. And they've also got got a food, mini food bank as well. And there's a book bank and a food bank, and I just think it's an absolutely fantastic concept. And me and the kids, we read so much, and it's just, you know, we've got maybe 1,000 books in our house, and we still manage to give away a good 100 or so a year. Yeah. And yeah, I think it's, it's, it's really interesting, and it's Also, in prison, reading age people is not necessarily that high. A lot of people left school without qualifications, and reading can be something that they're concerned about or they're worried about. Or if they had a bad experience at school and reading wasn't their thing, then thinking about joining a reading group can be a bit scary. But we— our whole operation is about reading for pleasure. So the groups exist just to read for fun. It's not like school. We make sure it feels very different from a classroom setting, and so people kind of can feel like they can access the books. And it's run— the book clubs run exactly like a book club you or I would be in, in that they choose books, the books go in, they read them over the month, and then they meet the following month and talk about them. And that's one aspect of what we do. But one of the other things that's really important is keeping prisoner parents connected with their families because that reduces reoffending rates. So one of the projects we run is called Raising Readers, where we send in a selection of books for all ages. They can choose a book to send home to their child, or they can bring the book out to— send the book out to their child, or when they come in for a family day. It's a good way to connect, isn't it? It's really good, and I think that's been a really interesting project for us. So we try and do projects, and we also do family days. So we'll go into prison with a load of books, and when kids come in to see their family member, they can choose a book to read there and then and take it home with them. And there's something about the connection of reading together and sharing a book that means it's easier to keep those connections going. You're not talking about all the stuff that's going on, you're not talking about difficulty things, you're just sharing a book. And that works right across the board. We've had, you know, stories of people saying, actually, I sent a book home to my adult daughter who I've not really been able to have a conversation with, and actually we've talked, we've started a conversation again about all the other stuff we need to talk about based on our conversation about the book. So that was the starting point for making new connections and building back those links, which are really important. So that's our PRISM, you know, the PRISM work I think is all about connection, and it's books that bring it. And as you know, as you said, you know, books give you an opportunity to step in someone else's shoes and find out about the wider world. I think also just the power of being able to read as well gives you agency as well. I mean, I know that when I was teaching both my children to read, I mean, I'm probably not the most patient of people, but you know, when it comes to teaching people how to read, I think I'm probably a little bit more advantaged than others because I love it so much and I've done it so much. I've gone into schools to help children one-on-one to read, and the frustrations that can bring already into an already hectic family. I really do feel for parents who, you know, they have to turn around for the 86th time in one evening before they cook dinner and do the washing, that it's the— not a completely different word— because it's so hard. Once you've got it, it's like riding a bike. Once you've got it, it's fantastic. But if you think about how hard that is to teach a 3, 4, 5-year-old and then look at that in terms of trying to teach an adult who already has certain issues of anxiety around this because it didn't work the first time round and they're already in a situation that's already quite challenging, that once that happens, I mean, that's incredible. And you must love your job being able to actually enrich people to be able to have that control and agency over their own lives. And once it's done properly— yeah, and it's really important. I mean, we're— the project we do isn't teaching people to read. We've got a new project running, um, which is all about emergent readers, which is exactly that, working with the Shannon Trust. Um, the Shannon Trust do lots of reading one-to-one, exactly as you're saying, to get people reading. Our project's all about the joy of reading and reading together as a group. And so sometimes people come to us after they've learned to read, or sometimes people learn to read because they want to be part of the group. So there's lots of different ways that people come to the prison reading groups, but our focus is on reading for pleasure rather than literacy and learning to read. I think once people Yeah, so once people actually have access to books, so they, they can kind of teach themselves a certain element if you have the basics, but it's having the access to books to kind of practice that skill. Yeah, and having the access to the right books as well. I think we do a project called Books for First Nighters, which is exactly, exactly as it says. When you are sentenced, you go directly from the— I can't speak today, which is really unhelpful when you're having a chat about speaking. Well, this is my job. I constantly have to either do live or pre-recorded radio, and sometimes I forget halfway through a sentence either what I was talking about or suddenly just forget a word, and I just stumble. It doesn't help that I drink a lot of double espresso either. So the word I was looking for court, who when they're taken from court directly to prison— that was the word I was looking for. You nailed it. Yeah, brilliant. Um, that might be the first time that, uh, you know, without phone, without all the things that they normally would have, and we just have a selection of books that are theirs to take, read, share, keep, and signposting to the library and the other things in prison that will help them start their reading journey if they can't read, or will enhance their ability to find books. Yeah, it's a really simple project, and they literally— we spend a lot of time thinking about those books that go in, and they're a mix of books, you know, all different levels. So there should be something for everyone to pick up. And, you know, if it's a simpler read, but, um, there's a really good, um, publisher called Barrington Stoke who write age-appropriate books in terms of content, but the language is much simpler. Right. So it's still relevant to you. So we use up some of those books and just have a mix of books for people to pick up. And that's been a really, really successful project. And it also signposts people to say, if your reading is tricky, here are the people to go and talk to. Here's where the library, you know, here's an opportunity to, to read. And, you know, change maybe your outlook and your, the way your, you know, it sounds very grand, but change your future through reading. Well, I think just the whole concept that someone is showing that they care about, about your progression when you're in somewhere like a prison, actually even in schools as well, the fact that these kind of foundations, these organizations show people that they matter and you're trying to enrich them in some way. And it's interesting what you said actually about that particular publisher, because I read books all the time and I know that I come across words and go, "Do you know what, I don't really know what that means." Quickly just Google it, or if I'm reading on my Kindle, highlight it and the thesaurus or the dictionary comes up. And you kind of forget that that's not something that's possible for body. No, and we did, we give out dictionaries as well. Right, okay. Highly, highly prized in prison because for that reason that if you don't, you know, you need to look it up in a dictionary, old school. And there's a project that involves a reading thing with the dictionary, which is the kind of gift at the end of that reading project. But as I said, everything we do is all about reading for fun and reading for pleasure. And I went I'd not been to a reading group until a couple of weeks ago, and I went into Wandsworth actually, and it was just a really interesting discussion about a book that we'd all sort of thought we didn't like. Actually, in a book group, it's a better discussion sometimes than when everyone loves the book and they go, "Yeah, I really loved it." Actually, everyone had something to say. Because they thought, well, we're not sure about this, and why the author said that, but we're not sure we like the book. But actually, by the end of it, we were all like, okay, but that was actually quite interesting. So it was a really good discussion, and everyone, you know, apart from a couple of people who just joined the group, had read the book. So you've got lots of different perspectives about their views, and it was just a really interesting thing. And then from that, you know, there's a whole selection of books books that Sarah brought in for them to pick their next read, and then they choose the read and we order them and they read them for the next month. So it kind of— and that's happening in about 50 prisons up and down the country with a mix of volunteers and the librarian. I think one of the things we found during COVID when everything stopped, we couldn't go into prisons, we did a lot of things remotely, So we set up remote reading groups, which sounds bonkers, but they'd read the book on their own, write something if they wanted to, send that to the librarian who collated everyone's responses, put it into one page and sent it back. So there's this kind of whole conversation around what's happening, but very, very virtually. And we've gone back in person. It's taken a while to get— I can imagine— much slower than it has been in the mainstream world. But we are back in prisons, and prisons are asking for volunteers. So there's an opportunity if people are interested that we have various volunteering opportunities, but one of the ones where we're looking for people is to help us run prison reading groups. And obviously there's training and safeguarding and all of those things that go around it. You know, you're not sent into prison on your own day one. Off you go, it'll be fine. That's Dave in the corner, he's fine. But it's really— but we would really value people if they wanted to get involved to get in touch with us. There's lots of different ways that people can help with Give a Book though, isn't there? Yeah, yeah, there is. So as well as like core volunteering in person, we create remote content. So we put a book stuff and a book talk together each month, which goes out to prisons for them to, uh, goes into cells for people to read. So book stuff is kind of, um, lots of like a little newsletter thing which people can help us do. And there's obviously traditional fundraising, traditional donations. Yeah. Um, and we also run family days in prisons, so people can come and help be the people who kind of signpost to the books we've got to get them reading together as a family. So there's various different opportunities like that. I love that. It is all about connection and a core part of the rehabilitation process as well, making sure that they've got something to to come out to. I think it's brilliant what you do. How did the organisation come about? So Victoria, who's the executive director, her husband was the playwright Simon Gray, and when he died she wanted to do something in his memory. And he always said, you know, he gave books away and books were the most important thing. So she wanted to do something around books, and so it started with working, giving books in schools and other locations. And then prison reading connection happened in, I think, 2013, and so they became part of Give a Book as well. So alongside the prison work, Give a Book also, as I said, does school work. And for— with my other hat on, book clubs in schools, it gives us books for the schools that are most disadvantaged so they can run our program. So it's all about giving books and getting them to people who really need them. Also, it's really important it's the right books. So it's not just random books that, you know, people do donate books to us, it's brilliant, and we get foreign language books from the Royal Society of Literature. If their authors have had their books, you know, translated into different languages, they're really helpful for us because there are various prisons who have people and whose English is not their first language, who actually reading a book in their own language is a brilliant thing. So those are always really helpful, but it's making sure that it's the right book, or an interesting book, and a new book, so that if the first time you picked up a book since you were at school when you had a bad experience, it isn't a tatty dog-eared book, it's a nice book that you will want to keep and you want to read and maybe pass on to somebody else if you enjoyed it, or keep it. And people— and that's a mix of sometimes people keep the books, sometimes they share them, sometimes they put them back in the library. So there's a whole mix of what happens to those books, but we're really clear that they're new or as good as new when they reach, um, somebody's hand. It's interesting because how do you get people to read who have never been taught the importance of it, or never just generally never seen the importance of reading? I think, um, the groups are really interesting for that because I think being part of a group makes you want to be part of the group. So if part of the group is reading a book in order to be part of the group, there's something interesting about that. Um, there's something interesting about that, sharing a book with a child, that you can see how interesting that is for the child, from the child's point of view. And I think something happens when people do that, possibly for the first time, and they see how interested and important that can be. Does that make any sense at all? It did, it really, really did. I mean, to be honest, like, both of my, both my children And most importantly, the last one, that's one that I remember the most. Actually, no, both of them. When they went to bed, it didn't matter what time of the night it was, whether it was super early or possibly a little bit late, maybe we had a slightly later dinner or something to do. They don't go to bed until they've had the book. And all it takes is 5 to 10 minutes of the reading and then they were out like a light. Otherwise they'd sit there for about an hour just going, well, until I have my my book. This, this day is not complete. And this was something that we had with them, and literally it was like a light switch as soon as they had their book. And that's you jumping into bed, they're having a cuddle, and it's their completeness and it's their connection. And they go off to sleep feeling— and that might be something that's, that's, that's everybody has it, has experience of. And I think, um, We kind of, you know, I think if you sit in a house where there's books and you've always had access to books, that's your normal, but it isn't everywhere else. So I think it's interesting to talk about it and to talk about books as a connection. That's what we do on our family days, is that we just, you know, um, model that that's an opportunity. But here's some books. There's books for, you know, if you've got a 1-year-old or you've got a 17-year-old, here's a book that choose that you can choose to read with them or share with them or gift them in whatever way. And I think talking about books and about the difference it can make— and I think the other thing that happens is people start to recommend books to each other and start to recommend the reading group and start to say, you could join this, you know. So that happens organically as well, I think. I think another element to this that's, that's ridiculously important. And I— and a lot of my friends know that I'm hugely into books and say, oh, I just don't have the time. And I'm like, well, sometimes you have to make the time, because it's not just the concept of, um, reading a book for pleasure or space or to learn something or to learn something about somebody else or to be entertained. It's actually the neural pathway elements. We're constantly on tech, or stressed, and it's kind of a, a form of meditation. And the damage that social media and tech and blue light does to the brain— there's actual physical research that shows that the concept of reading undoes the damage and forms new pathways that help us actually, you know, carry on existing as human beings without being completely fried. And so, you know, there are so many different reasons why it's important to kind of a bit of a Ctrl+Alt+Delete for the brain when it is completely done in for this constant scrolling and taking in the vitriolic nonsense on TikTok and Twitter. And obviously this doesn't necessarily, uh, this isn't an issue maybe in prisons. Well, they've all got phones somewhere, I'm sure, but, um, It's the importance is it comes through in so many different ways. Yeah, I think, I think that's it's, it is that kind of opportunity to be outside of yourself and to just, and you know, if you're a reader, you know what that feeling feels like. So it's kind of sharing that opportunity with as many people as possible and just taking the time out. I mean, I'm normally reading about 3 different books. Yeah, we've got a book by my bed, I've got a book downstairs, and then I've sometimes got one on Audible as well. And there's also that thing about, you know, you've got to read it. Well, you don't, you can listen to it, that's also reading. I think you can do it however you want to do it, however you want, you know, on a Kindle, on paper format. I mean, it tends to be paper format in prisons. Um, but paper, we, you know, in the book clubs that I run in schools, we often have the paper book because it's just easier to share that experience in a group if you're literally on the same page rather than— hey, I saw what you did there! Thank you very much. Unless you— rather than, can everyone get to, you know, 29% of the book on their Kindle? It's a little bit trickier than, you know, go to page 12 and tell us what you think. And I think the other thing that makes the reading experience inclusive is that it's a space, whether this is in schools or prisons or wherever, when you're in a reading group where your opinions matter, where who you are, you kind of leave at the door, and actually all that's important in that room is the conversation about the book. And obviously your experience comes into it because you read the book through your through the way you lived your life, you know. Yeah, your own perspective. Yeah, a different perspective as to what, as to what you know about it, you know. If it's a book written by a Nigerian author and you're Nigerian, you might have some stronger views about some of the, you know, the way the food's discussed or whatever that I wouldn't have because I'm not Nigerian. So you get all those different perspectives, but fundamentally you're all in the book club reading together and everybody's opinion everyone counts and everybody gets an opportunity to be heard. And I think that's part of what makes reading really interesting in a group setting. I love that. It's an opportunity. It's a lot, you know, sometimes people think, oh, reading is a lonely pursuit, and it's not because you're in another world and you're part of the character and you're, you know, experiencing all of that. But actually then bringing it back to a group and talking about it. Just gives it that extra dimension that you can, you know, you start seeing it from somebody else's view of your view of the book, if you know what I mean. Yeah, well, it's about sparking a conversation as well, and again, as I said before, connection is so important. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Just a quick reminder to all of our listeners, they can pop onto giveabook.org.uk. Now, we have some huge book fans that are listening to Get Booked Do you have a favorite book at the moment that you're reading or have recently read? Oh, I know, right? Oh, it's a little tricky. Okay, so last year, um, we— with my book clubs in schools, we sponsor the Diverse Book Awards, and the book that won the YA, um, title— well, won the YA section— was called Skin of the Sea by Natasha Bowen. It's about mamawati, which are kind of mermaids, and it's a fantasy, which I don't normally read. No, me neither, but I'm getting frequently surprised. So her role is to save the slaves who are thrown out of the slave boats who are killed and get them, take them to, you know, heaven. But one doesn't die, and she saves him and completely ruins the whole order of nature, and then there's this quest to put it right. And it was just brilliant, and it's written in a really interesting way. It's about something I didn't know about, so I really love that. Um, I spend a lot of time reading YA because of the junk. Yeah, there's some cracking stuff out there. I, I read Milkshakes for the Almost Dead, which was YA, and I was like, I love this book, it's perfect. Sometimes it just hits It does. And so I've read— so I'm kind of doing reading that. I read a really good memoir called Pigeon— I can't remember its name. I'm going to try and remember that. And it's brilliant, and I can't remember its name, so it's really good. Yeah, it's all about pigeon fancying. Again, something I didn't think I'd pick up. Pigeon fancying. Yeah, a pigeon fancying book. Pigeon fancying book, right. There you go. A pigeon racing— pigeon fancying. John Littlefair? No, it's called, um, Pigeon, um, it's by John— it is by John someone. Oh, is it called Homing? It is called Homing. John Day? Yes. Do you know what, Ali, there is surprisingly a lot of books that come up when you type in pigeon fancying. The one I was talking about is called Homing by John Day. Right. I even made a little TikTok about it. I was so overexcited. Oh, I don't really do TikTok, but, um, it's just brilliant. It's not really— it's about him settling down with his family and becoming a grown-up. So it's really about him, right? So it's really interesting. It's like a memoir but with the backdrop of Pigeons racing. It's a bit random. I like that, something different. I read so much random stuff. So those two that are totally random that I would recommend. I'm trying to think, and I'm reading at the moment, um, I've just read from a younger kind of person's, you know, like kids, 9 to 12-year-old. I've just read, uh, Chime Seekers by Ross Montgomery. Okay. Which again is kind of bad fairies steal his little sister because he kind of wishes she wasn't there on Halloween. Oh, and now he has to go get her back. It is, but it's just, it's really good. And that's our summer book club, uh, that we're running, um, for schools across the country at the moment that schools can get in. If there are any teachers listening, um, they Google Summer Book Club for book clubs in schools. We've got all the resources for that. And that's again not a book, you know, it's got— it's, it's kind of really interesting, but it's dark. But actually it's dark in that safe way that books are. Oh good, well, that's it, because it challenges children's perceptions of what they can read about as well. Yeah, I like that. When you go into that world and, you know, you're in it and then, you know, things happen. So book clubs in school is another leg of what you do, isn't it? Yeah, it's another— it's a different hat that I wear, um, which does again exactly what it says on the tin. Um, it's a different charity, um, it runs book clubs in schools. So we, uh, give all the resources and sort all the resources out teachers to run book clubs at scale. So quite often in schools there'll be one small book club running. This is so that the whole of Year 7 could take part, and with 20 older students being the book club leaders. So there's a training program from the older students, they then deliver weekly book clubs to the younger ones. So it has that cross-age thing. I love that. Works really well. So that's just another hat that I wear. I, I, I do love that. This, um, the teachers are stretched ridiculously, and the concept of being able to spend 10-15 minutes reading one-to-one with another child, it's very hard for them to achieve. But if you're doing it for less than 5 minutes, it's— they're not even in, in the spirit of it. They've not really got into it. They don't get a chance to get into it with just that 5 minutes. And it's such a tough day, which, I mean, that's why I used to go in and do a whole hour where there'd just be 3 to 4 children that would get 15 to 20 minutes solid, just one-on-one. And for the first 5 minutes, you're just kind of cajoling them and getting them to kind of get into it in one place, aren't you? But then within 10 minutes, they're loving it because they realize they don't have their peers watching them getting it wrong, and they have the patience with it. And also, they're not my own children. You, you get a lot more impatient with with your own children than you do with other people's children. And I used to absolutely love it, and they just go back in quite happy and less anxiety in the classroom as well. And that's from a wellbeing point of view, I think being part of a book group and talking about books really helps. And we've, you know, from the research— we're doing research at the moment on that project with the Open University and they said that there's— it's just like an opportunity to— a bit like I said about the prisons, you know, you leave yourself at the door and you come in and talk about books, and that's the focus. But in doing so, you're kind of having time out of whatever else is going on whilst you're having that half an hour, 40 minutes of book talk. Um, so that's— it's all— it's all about books. Yeah, it's all about books. What other ones should I recommend? Because I've not recommended enough books. Well, the thing is, this interview will stop in a bit and you'll suddenly just sit there having your coffee going, "Oh, I didn't say my favourite book!" I know, what's my absolute favourite book? Anyway, that was a couple of— there was a 9-12, there was a YA, and there was an adult book. That wasn't too bad. Well, just to remind people, they can pop on to gibberbook.org.uk. And how do people find out about your second hat? Bookclubsinschools.org. Yeah, so nice and simple and easy. They can get in touch, they can volunteer, they can donate, or they can just spread the word, because you never know when a friend in a particular industry will just go, right, I need to try and create this in a particular situation. They can get in touch with you and see how you can put it together. Yeah, and have a chat about, um, what we do in a bit more detail. I love it. Thank you so much. Well, just— we're running out of time, but I do like to ask all my guests on Get Booked the 3 top tips on trying to achieve a good level of mental health and mental well-being, because, you know, sometimes we need a reminder of even the basics. Yeah, I think, um, going for a walk without your phone. Nothing will happen in that. Just leave the phone at home, go for a walk with a dog if you've got one, or without the dog, uh, going for a walk. Um, there's a thing in Merton and Wandsworth now called Walk and Talk, which happens on a Saturday morning, where you can do my two favorite things, which is walking and talking. Um, uh, I do that every Wednesday morning with my friends. If I don't have it, I feel like I've not had like a brain dump Exactly. So that's, that's quite a good thing. So walking without your phone, I would say, would be my number one thing. Reading, of course. Yeah. And then I kind of like, I'm trying to think of the third thing that I do when I'm— I bake, actually. Yeah. Um, not always fully edible. Oh well, you know. I might have been known to make lemon drizzle cake without— let's say the drizzle level of it was quite low. Oh, that, that's disappointing, Alielle. I mean, the lemon drizzle, for me, I need the drizzle. Oh, but baking, the act of baking. But you enjoyed the process. Well, it's that kind of OCD element, isn't it, of putting things together and being busy and being distracted with your hands because you are not scrolling, you're not doing this. I quite often listen to an Audible at the same time or watch something on Netflix, and I find it— especially my family, they know that if I look a little bit fried, they'll be like, oh, just leave her in the kitchen for a few hours, she'll make a lot of food, everyone will be fed for the next few days. This— and luckily I normally get it right, not always, but it's my complete release. It's my, as I said before, control alt delete. Normally I'm quite good, but occasionally I have been known to create a lemon drizzle cake without the drizzle. That's making it pretty much— well, you know, nobody's perfect. The life would be very boring if we were all perfect. Well, thank you so much, Ali, for joining us on Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting to you and finding out more about what you do. And listeners, get involved. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for listening in to today's interview with Ali Palmer from giveabook.org.uk. And as promised, we're going to have a little sneaky peek at a show from a couple of weeks ago. And please, as ever, do pop on to womensradiostation.com/shows /GetBooked and on our SoundCloud to catch up on any of our previous shows. Thank you so much for listening to Get Booked with me, Hazel Butterfield, for Women's and Men's Radio Station. Right, today I have the pleasure of chatting to Deborah Stone on Get Booked. Deborah Stone read English literature at Durham University and lives in North London with her husband, two sons, and most importantly, golden retriever Stanley. Uh, we're going to be talking about Semi-Detached. This is today's book, published on April 3rd. It's a thrilling psychological drama from the best-selling author of What's Left Unsaid, Me and My Shadow, which I've read both. Um, now, Semi-Detached— when a couple move in next door to a Mandarin— a couple already distant and barely functioning, both riddled with their own issues of dissatisfaction with life and, and how they understand it. The new couple are vibrant, swanky, full of life and potential promise that could rub off on them and help and bring them out of their reverie. It even starts to work until it doesn't and actually implodes. If something is too good to be true, maybe it is all an and actions do have consequences. Another great domestic noir from Deborah, and I've thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Let's chat a little bit more. Welcome back to Get Booked, Deborah. It's great to have you back on the show. Oh, thanks so much for having me, Hazel. It's really, really great to be here. Yeah, well, I'm super excited to chat about Semi-Detached because you do love writing books about, you know, deep lies hidden within family dynamics. I do. I'm not quite sure why, but I do find it quite fascinating. Yeah, well, it affects so much of how people behave when they've got something to hide, or they're not quite living their true authentic self. And, um, I really love the book. I guess you've been— you're so welcome. And what have the responses been so far? I've had some really, really great reviews actually, so it's been very pleasing. I mean, obviously it's, it's a new book, so it takes time to kind of get out there. It's only been a couple of weeks or so, but, um, so far it's been very, very positive. So, which is amazing. It's, it's quite easy to get hold of the book on Amazon, but they can pop onto deborahstonebooks.com as well. Um, so tell us a little bit about Semi-Detached, how the idea was born. Well, I started thinking originally about a couple where one of the, um, the, the man in the relationship was kind of a little bit possessive, or, you know, exerting some kind of, you know, control over his partner, which I guess is sort of what happens with Amanda and Bill when you get to the beginning of the book. Um, and then wanted to kind of create an antithesis with somebody else. So this idea then came together of, you know, of two couples living next door who are complete opposites of each other, but none of them at any point— they start off as one thing and then they morph into something completely different. And so hopefully the book's got lots of kind of twists and turns and things that you don't necessarily expect. Um, and I think, you know, importantly for me, characters develop through the book. So, you know, Fiona, for example, the, the very glamorous, um, neighbor next door, sort of starts off as a bit of an airhead and, you know, not you know, just into shopping and that kind of thing, but actually I think turns into the person that you most trust and, you know, believe by the end of the book. So I was trying to, you know, play around with people's perceptions, what people think of themselves, why they've got themselves into those mindsets and relationships in the first place, what led to them, and then, you know, how they can change around and how people can, you know, think they know somebody and they don't. Well, I think this is what is good about books like this. They help the reader to challenge their perceptions of what they see on the surface, or how judgmental we can just automatically be, whether it's laziness. We don't always have time to understand what goes on underneath the surface. But I love it how you just kept on throwing these different spanners of different sizes into the works all the way through, that you kind of up until the very end. I mean, I must say, I thought I kind of got how it was going to end, and then you just completely threw it all up in the air in pretty much the last chapter. Yeah, I did. Yeah, and it's just like sometimes we, on the surface, you kind of think, well, that person is a terrible person that's making that person's life a misery, and there's always, there's quite often, not always, quite often something going on that we just don't understand. And actually, sometimes we don't have the right to understand it either. That's right. It's not our business. Um, and we can envy people, and it's such a dangerous emotion to envy somebody else's life when again, we have no idea what is going on. And it's, yeah, the more people talk about how amazing their life is, normally they're hiding something. Yeah, and the other thing I wanted to try and do with the book was to show that ordinary lives— no one has an ordinary life, you know. These two couples, in theory, you know, they just live in, you know, semi-detached houses in North London, and, you know, nothing's terribly exciting. I mean, one couple's more exciting than the other, but, you know, neither of them are, you know, famous or doing anything particularly exciting. But there's always something going on behind closed doors and in people's relationships, people's childhoods, that affect them and all that kind of thing that means that it, that you can never know somebody properly and you can never know why they behave the way they do. So, and also everybody's different and sometimes people want a quiet life. They, for whatever their motivations may be, sometimes people do just want to be at home. They might want to raise kids or not, or make sure that they're looking after their partner because that is what gives them joy. It's not always the case that they're being forced to do something. And I just, I love it that there were so many elements to Semi-Detached that kind of threw your perceptions all over the place. That's good. That's what I was trying to do, you know, just to, just to get people to think, you know, well, you, you might think you know what's going on here, but actually I don't think you really do. And hopefully the characters grow from that point of view as you get to know more of their backstory and why they're like they are and why they make the decisions that they do. And, you know, sometimes I think they're involuntary decisions and sometimes in some of the characters' cases they're very much intentional. You kind of have to read it to find out. There's a few spoilers, so it's quite difficult to talk about. I know sometimes I kind of think that Whenever I do these interviews and get booked, I should possibly not read the last few chapters until I've finished the interview, just in case. But I just— it gets to that point, don't you? It's very hard if you're a book fan to suddenly get 2 or 3 chapters towards the end and go, oh, do you know what, I'll just park that for a bit. I would send myself crazy. I mean, I know the, the last twist is quite surprising, but hopefully it's not completely non-understanding, you know. I think it's— it kind of links back to something else in the book, and so hopefully it is— you can kind of get how we got there kind of thing. But it, you know, yeah, designed to surprise. Well, loyalties, um, can stem from many places and shock many people all the time. But, you know, that's what a good book is, keeping you guessing. Yeah, so I'm quite keen to chat because another one that you did, there was Me and My Shadow and What's Left Unsaid. What's Left Unsaid really struck me as well. It's been a while since I read it, but do you want to tell us a little bit about What's Left Unsaid? Because I gather that's won a runner-up prize for best book of 2023. Yeah, in fact they both did actually, so that was quite nice. So What's Left Unsaid was my first novel and it was really It's based around two main characters. So there's Annie, who is an older lady who has the beginning of dementia and is quite confused about certain things. And you, when you read her story, you're getting it very much from a kind of slightly confused, you're not sure how reliable she is as a narrator. And then you've got her daughter Sasha, who's grown up with Annie, and their relationship has been very difficult. Because Annie is not particularly nice to her as she grows up. And, you know, she drinks and she's a bit vicious at times. And so Sasha has always kind of grown up in a— having probably less confidence than she might have done. And then there's also the father, Joe, who you also hear from, and the middle section of the book very much takes his perspective. And then you learn about what his backstory is and how he gets together with Annie and then the relationship with Sasha. And the whole thing kind of comes— there's a mystery in the middle of it, and it's uncovered actually by Sasha's son, who wants to kind of make a film about his mother and his grandmother, and then as a result sort of starts to find out some family secrets. And then you— again, it's not dissimilar to the other two books in the sense that it starts to unravel why people behave like they are. You know, you may think, well, you know, she's a horrible mother and she can be a bitch and all of this kind of thing, but actually there are reasons why she's like that, you know, from her same back to her childhood and other things that have happened to her. And I think for me it was quite a— it was a book I'd always wanted to write. It was about, you know, family relationships and how, you know, mothers, daughters, sons, fathers don't always, you know, see eye to eye. And as a child, you don't always understand why your parent is like they are, and as a parent, you don't always understand the effect that's having on your child. Well, we just try— as parents, we just try and do— we hope that we're just trying to do our best. Communication is key, but sometimes we have issues from our past that affect the way that we behave. I mean, psychodynamics of— I love books that kind of explore psychodynamics of relationships and understanding and people who are trying to do the best. But, you know, even just the average Joe has issues from their past that come out in the way that they treat other people. And if you don't know what those reasons are, they come across as ill-conceived.