In this episode of Get Booked, host Hazel Butterfield speaks with author Deniz Görün about her debut novel The Fugitive of Gezi Park, published in May 2023. The conversation explores how fiction can illuminate real-world events and cultural moments that often escape global attention. Görün discusses the inspiration behind her novel, which centers on Ada, a young Turkish history of art graduate haunted by her involvement in the 2013 Gezi Park protests, and Lucien, a burnt-out London gallerist. Their chance meeting at a contemporary art fair in London becomes the catalyst for a passionate four-day encounter that forces both characters to reassess their pasts and futures.
The episode delves into Görün’s distinctive narrative technique, employing first-person narration for Ada and second-person narration for Lucien—a literary choice inspired by Roberto Bolaño’s The Savage Detectives. This stylistic approach allows the author to capture the vastly different voices and perspectives of her characters: Ada’s introspective and serious tone contrasts sharply with Lucien’s ironic, darkly humorous drug-fueled existence. Görün reveals that writing the novel took seven years, beginning just before she became pregnant, and discusses how her own experience as a diplomat’s daughter—moving between Oslo, Sydney, Ankara, and London—deeply informed her exploration of identity, displacement, and cultural belonging.
Throughout the conversation, Butterfield highlights how The Fugitive of Gezi Park serves as both an intimate character study and a window into Turkey’s volatile recent history. The novel explores universal themes of trauma, resilience, and the possibility of reinvention while grounding these experiences in the specific context of the 2013 protests, which saw three million Turks take to the streets over three weeks. Görün’s work demonstrates fiction’s unique power to educate readers about global events while creating empathetic connections to characters navigating the psychological and emotional fallout of political upheaval.
Main Topics
The Fugitive of Gezi Park is set during a four-day contemporary art fair in London and follows Ada, a Turkish graduate haunted by her arrest during the 2013 Gezi Park protests, and Lucien, a burnt-out gallerist dealing with addiction and heartbreak
Deniz Görün uses innovative dual narration—first-person for Ada and second-person for Lucien—to distinguish their vastly different voices and perspectives, drawing inspiration from Roberto Bolaño's literary technique
The novel took seven years to write, beginning just before the author became pregnant, as she balanced motherhood with her creative ambitions
The 2013 Gezi Park protests were sparked by government plans to demolish Istanbul's Gezi Park and resulted in three million Turks demonstrating over three weeks against police brutality and broader political concerns
Görün's own experience as a diplomat's daughter, relocating between Oslo, Sydney, Ankara, and London, profoundly shaped the novel's exploration of identity, displacement, and the challenge of finding belonging across cultures
The book explores universal themes of trauma, recovery, and the possibility of starting over while remaining grounded in Turkey's specific political context
Fiction serves as a powerful vehicle for educating readers about overlooked global events and fostering empathy across cultural boundaries
Full TranscriptHi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, and you are listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I am a huge book fan...▼
Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, and you are listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I am a huge book fan, so I love doing the show. Get Booked is all about talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different guest each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. This week we're going to be focusing on a book by Deniz Görün called The Fugitive of Gezi Park. It was published at the end of May of this year. In May 2013, a group of activists staged a sit-in at Istanbul's Gezi Park protesting the Turkish government's plans to demolish the park to build a replica of the Ottoman-era Taksim military barracks that would include a shopping mall. The forced eviction of protesters from the park and the excessive use of police force sparked an unprecedented wave of mass demonstrations. Around 3 million people took to the streets across Turkey over a 3-week period to protest a wide range of concerns. The Fugitive of Gezi Park is based on the fallout of one of those involved in the protests. Now, next up on Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station, we have the author Deniz Korun talking about The Fugitive of Gezi Park. Now, Ada is haunted by her yearning for Istanbul and by the scars of a night-long interrogation following her arrest at the Gezi Park protests. Now in London, temping at an art fair, she meets Lucien, an eccentric, charming, but burnt-out gallerist. Since his divorce, Lucien has been relying on drugs and alcohol to mend his broken heart. Ada, meanwhile, dreads the verdict of her forthcoming trial in Istanbul. Day by day, as their passion deepens, they reassess their past choices and their futures rapidly take shape. Sensual, perceptive, and at times bitingly funny, The Fugitive of Gezi Park explores the nature of trauma and struggle, asking what it takes for us to start all over again. As I mentioned earlier in the show, in 2013, police brutality against a peaceful group protesting the destruction of Gezi Park, one of the few public spaces in Istanbul, prompted an unprecedented wave of demonstration demonstrations which spread rapidly across Turkey, lasting several weeks. The Gezi Park protests are a pivotal moment in the country's volatile recent history and continue to carry huge sentimental value for the dissidents of New Turkey. The author is now joining us on Get Booked. Thank you for joining us. How are you? Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Well, I'm very excited to chat to you too. One of the things I love about Get Booked is that there are so many incredible books out there, some fiction, some non-fiction, and books like The Fugitive of Gessie Park gives us a little bit of a story. Kind of, um, there's a lot of mental health issues in there, a little bit of misery loves misery, but it's also helping us in a fictional way to understand other parts of other people's culture and things that have happened that you know, we often all over the world, we miss things that happen that are huge to some cultures and some countries because there's so much going on all the time. And it just gives us a better understanding of each other. And I think you've done a fantastic job of doing that in your book. And congratulations on the book. It's been out a few months now, hasn't it? Thank you. Yes, yes. I, I'm very excited to get to this point. It's, you know, it's such a sort of painful birth. I mean, enjoyable at the same time as well, but you know, it's It's a slow process getting there, you know, sort of coming up with the story and then writing it. And then, of course, you know, it took me years, 7 years, because I started writing it just before I was pregnant, just before I gave birth. And so, you know, and then once I had my son, I didn't have that much time. I had the great fire to go ahead and write, but, you know, time was limited. So It took a long, long time, but, um, so all, you know, getting there in the end is, is definitely, um, a huge moment. Yeah, and, and in the intro I gave a little bit of a background on the plot, but there was so much more going in in The Fugitive of Gezi Park, um, especially it focuses around the art world, and there's definitely a little theme of misery loves misery in there a little bit. It tends to find each other. Um, can you, can you just expand a little bit more on the plot of this book? The book takes place, the novel takes place in a 4-day art fair, contemporary art fair in London. And it's sort of, I guess you can see it, you can, you know, it's a bit of a love story that centers around 2 characters, which one is Ada, who is a young Turkish sort of newly graduate history of art student who's tempting at the fair. And Lucien, who is, as you also explained, you know, a burnt-out gallerist. But what joins them is that they're both artists, or were artists. And so they have the passion, you know, to express themselves artistically. But for some reason, life has taken them elsewhere. And of course, in Ada's side of the story, she has 2 years. I mean, the novel takes place in 2015, and there's, you know, backlashes, sort of going back back and forth to 2013. The novel travels. So, yes, so we see Ada's involvement in the Gezi Park protests in 2013, which is a haunting aspect of her personal history. And so it's the relationship between these two characters and what was sort of, I think, most challenging. And I wanted a challenge because I'm always— I think I'm always excited by a challenge as a novelist. I found it quite interesting the way you talk in terms of Lucien. It was very much a kind of narrative looking down on what he did. It was such an interesting style. Can you tell us a little bit more about why you you chose to do that because I found it— the second person— really drew me in. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, when I was writing this novel, I did get some sort of— I've had a few, a couple of literary influences. One was Roberto Bolano's— I don't know if you ever read The Savage Detectives? No, I didn't. And it's a brilliant novel, and what sort of— I mean, I've read it over 10 years ago now, But what interested me most was it was a novel which had several narratives, much more than my book does, and they were all written in a different style. And so I found that fascinating, and I wanted to sort of achieve some of that in my novel. And by that, of course, I did Ada's narration in a first person and Lucien's in a second person. But not only that, of course, there's the styles in which they express themselves is very different. Ada has a much more perceptive, inward, sort of more serious in a way style to her voice. You know, she has that kind of a voice, whereas Lucien's style in second person is much more ironic and sort of, sort of, I guess, carefree and humorous. But it does— there are moments of seriousness in his voice as well, where he sort of inwardly looks at himself. And, you know, there's sort of moments of emotional, I think, depth, I think. But, um, because also I found it quite— I find it helpful to distinguish the two styles, especially because when we were— when the second person narrator was referring to Lucien, he has more of a kind of drug-fueled, sweary existence, which is quite different to Adda's. So it was quite nice to have that differentiation, and I found that it drew me in quite a bit as well, because it felt like you were, you really were dealing with two different sides of the story, not delivered in the same way, which I, I think it really worked. Oh, thank you. I think, I mean, that was the sort of, you know, there were various driving forces in writing this novel, and one was the two different narrations. You know, from a sort of literary point of view, it was what I really was excited and sometimes frustrated, you know, moments of difficulty in it, of course. But it was a challenge for me, and which, you know, which sort of helped me, you know, because you need those various driving forces to complete a novel. You know, we all have ideas, or let me do this, let me write about this, but you really you have to feel passionate and go ahead, you know, to reach the final stage and finish it. And for that, you really have to be, you know, sort of driven by what you're trying to achieve. And the two separate narrations were definitely— I was very driven to accomplish that. But also because they're, you know, sort of not sort of narrations I created out of, you know, sort of nothingness. They, they exist within me. They, they are voices that I have. And I think, you know, we all have so many different sides in ourselves that we, you know, we carry. And, and, uh, what is great about fiction is you can just explore that and take it to another level. Uh, yeah, I got that. And I really enjoyed, uh, the different aspects as well. And I think it also gave you the opportunity to show lots of passion for different subjects. I must say, over the last week, I have deep-dived into the Gezi Park protests because until I knew about your book, I had no idea that Gezi Park even existed because we don't. We all live in our little bubbles. And it's interesting reading the varying articles from The Guardian and The Observer to BBC and even the Daily Mail. And you just kind of go, Yes. Wow. And I love it when a book helps us understand a little bit more about what's going on in the wide world and piques our interest. And I think the passion of the way that you wrote the book brought that across. I mean, I'm somebody who likes to bury my head in the sand at the best of the times, uh, sometimes when it comes to news. But I found this an enthralling way to get me really interested in what's going on. And, you know, the more people that can write books to ignite our interests in other cultures as well. It can give us a better understanding of each other. I think the book really focuses on identity and addressing trauma embedded in our past, and that it's transferable. It's not just about the topics that were going on in this book. It kind of covered a lot of behaviors around what we all go through when we're dealing with past trauma. It's hard to be who we are without accepting our pasts, which can be conflicting. And in the book you cover this intricately. And how did you do the research? And did you find it quite challenging? Well, firstly, when I started writing the novel, the protests hadn't erupted yet. It was just before that. And I was writing the novel was sort of still set in a contemporary art world, and it had this young Turkish woman working at the art fair who was desperately missing her hometown Istanbul. And I think sort of issues around sort of identity is something I have as a you know, Turkish individual, person, I struggled with from a young age because my father was a diplomat. And I think, you know, from sort of, I don't know, as young as I was born in Oslo, I went to sort of primary school in Sydney. I didn't get to— yeah, when I arrived, I mean, we briefly lived in Germany. When I arrived in Istanbul aged 11. Sorry, not Istanbul, then it was Ankara. I would, you know, it was the first time I arrived in Turkey and it was a huge culture shock for me. And so, and then this sort of carried on sort of, you know, having to adapt to a new place and then struggling with that and then embracing the life there because once you adapt, then you make friends and, you know, it becomes your home. Whether it's Ankara or Sydney or Istanbul or London, you know, you just sort of— it— there is this sort of period of struggling to adapt, and then you adapt, and then you embrace, and you think this is home, you know, especially as a, as a child or a young person or a teenager. You want sort of more a routine to your life, and, and, and then one, you know, and then you embrace that life there before and, you know, you're torn away from it because you have to leave again. So I think as a young person, I was very affected by this. And, uh, when I left, you know, when I left Sydney, I, I, I mourned. I, I was so sad. I, I had fantasies about, you know, sort of going back there, or I don't know, running away. And same happened when I left Ankara, you know, and, and so, and as it did happen when I left Istanbul. So I've had this relationship with countries or cities that almost have become— they're like person-like to me. They're not anymore just places, but they're, they're more than places. Yeah, the thing is, our heart can belong to many different places. I mean, I'm originally from the north of England, and I've lived down south for 20-odd years, and you know, my family find it quite disconcerting and a little bit insulting that I see that down south as my home, but it is, it is where I enjoy being, where I feel comfortable. And it's quite conflicting sometimes, you know, my identity is I'm a northerner, I've, you know, this is where all my family live, but you know, this is where down south is where I raised my children. And there are certain places I've traveled quite a lot of the world, and there are certain places that I've just felt such an affinity to. We're not always in control of that either, and it's, it's a huge issue with our identity, especially in London. I mean, there is— we have such a fantastic plethora of different cultures that we engage with on a daily, hourly basis, and it's, it's a very different kind of lifestyle. Um, but gone are the days where, you know, you were born somewhere, you stay there, and that was your Yes, but I mean, also, of course, as a kid, you know, like now as a grown-up, I can go back to Istanbul, but as a kid you can't, you know, that part of your life you don't have the control, it's over. And it's quite traumatic. And it also sort of realized, I think, as a young individual, it makes you realize more than other people that, you know, our period, you know, moments in life are transient, you know, they're passing, they don't stay. And that sort of— I mean, you realize that as you get older, that certain period, you know, you can't be— you know, it's gone. You can't go back to that. But as a child, you don't always live with that notion. But I think I became aware of that notion much earlier on. But going back to your question, so that's the story I had sort of started writing, was about a girl who was missing her hometown terribly. But then Once the Gezi Park protests erupted, I was so affected by what was going on. I was, you know, I mean, although I wasn't there because, as I said, I was pregnant and I was based in London, I was definitely there in spirit. And I could tell that something very important and unprecedented was taking place. You know, I kept watching what was going on day by day and And of course, there was this— I saw that there were a lot of news on how some young protesters, women mostly, sort of while they were being arrested or interrogated, you know, they were sort of sexually abused or threatened with rape by the police. And so, and I include, you know, I decided to, yeah, I decided to include this side of the protest in my novel through Ada's character and her sort of ordeal, really. Yeah, ordeal. Yeah, yeah. I found it— what I found quite helpful is that sometimes we are too lazy in our thinking and we think, well, why did this person end up being in this situation? Why did this person admit to something that they didn't do? And there are some horrific situations of when people are held hostage or where they're interrogated and they're made to feel so scared that they will say anything to get out of there. And I thought it was quite important to, to have that element in the book to help people understand a little bit more about how people can be put in these situations. Yes, and also by people who are there to supposedly, you know, protect us. I mean, one of the influences I had whilst— I shouldn't forget what I was about to say— but one of the influences I had whilst sort of writing this book is, um, this person called Onur Yasar Can, who was a Turkish architect, young 28-year-old Turkish architect in Istanbul, who in 2010 was arrested by the police for carrying 11 grams of grass and then subjected to physical and mental torture during his interrogation. And then they released him, but they kept following him because they wanted to turn him into a whistleblower. And they called him several times again to sort of sign false statements. And in the end, when they called him the third time, he was so terrified, he committed suicide. And I think that touched a lot of people's hearts, including me. It was, you know, to this day, I feel whenever I talk about his ordeal, I don't know him personally, but I find it very difficult not to, you know, become tearful because it is such a painful thing. And, you know, it was so— it did make me— Life is fragile. Yes, and, and, you know, I think it's, it's, uh, some people, uh, or most people, I would, I would argue, are not, um, are not ready to, you know, deal with such— being subject to such, um, sort of physical torture or mental torture. And, and, and, you know, it could really push them to the edge. And, uh, and, um, so yeah, so I was thinking of these ordeals while also writing Ada's character. But yeah, so Ada goes through, experiences post-traumatic stress disorder. Oh, it's a mouthful. Yeah. PTSD. PTSD. There you go. A lot easier. Yeah, post-traumatic stress disorder. And so whilst I was writing her internal journey, I didn't know really until maybe halfway through the novel that I was also sort of reflecting, you know, what I had gone through in my past. And I mean, it's sort of hard to believe that I didn't realize this, but I think I do write and, you know, I don't sort of plan my plots or, you know, I sort of— when I write, my most important thing is to sort of get the voice of the character. And then sort of, uh, I write instinctively basically. And I, I, one, one of the things I love about it is it's, I'm, you know, it's an adventure for me. And, uh, where I'm going to end up, I have a feeling of where I might end up with the character, but it's not, you know, set on stone. Or, uh, that's quite, that's quite an interesting way of writing. But yeah, I guess I suppose that way of writing as well, it must be like, even whether it's fiction or non-fiction, it is a form of journaling. So I can stand, you know, in that form of writing, as you're writing, you suddenly go, oh wow, yeah, I've just realized that. It must be incredibly cathartic. Yes, it is, it is, it is. So, uh, that I— yeah, so I— it was, I think. And, uh, I mean, it wasn't painful, it was definitely cathartic. And, uh, so, so through her I trying to, I guess, analyze my own situation. Because when I had my first book published, which was years ago in 2007, before it was published, my Turkish publishers then organized me to have like an interview with one of the big newspapers in Turkey. And as a young sort of author, I said yes. And but after that interview, things sort of spiraled out of control completely because here I was, you know, I had written a sort of a sexually explicit novel. And I think it was just too much. I think the ingredients there were too exciting for them to abuse or to misuse, or, you know, I think The bottom line is, you know, I think even here, you know, when you fall into the hands of the tabloid press, you are in a way toast. You know, it can be, it's, yeah, it can be quite difficult. And so, I mean, I was aware at the time, as you know, I wasn't completely naive. I knew that my book might create a reaction. The Turkish Diplomat's Daughter. Yes, because it's, you know, it's the, it's the, the novel is about sort of a young woman's quest into sexual freedom and personal freedom. And so, um, and so I, I could see that it might receive some, um, reaction, but I I didn't think I would be, um, you know, that it would become so personal, that there would be— they would fabricate, um, you know, stories about me. You know, it sort of totally became something else, you know. And you just don't know which way it's going to go. And sometimes it's— it can be on the turn of a knife as to who starts writing something and where the kind of power seems to Yes. Spiral out of control. It's interesting. I think it's good for all of our listeners to remember that when people put a book out there, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, it is, it's quite hard work dealing with the fallout, whether it's positive or negative. It is emotionally draining. It is. It is. I mean, you know, my book became a bestseller, so, and it published in, I can't count now, 7 countries, you know. So, yes, there were those positives. But, and I have to also say that I'm sure I made mistakes along the way. As I said, as a sort of a, you know, a first-time author, you are kind of, you know, you say, I mean, now I'm not that same person. I don't say yes to everything. I think it through before I accept an interview, but, but it was different then, you know, so, so I'm sure I made, you know, my mistakes as well. But the bottom line is I got such a reaction and, and I am a sensitive person and it was, it was too much. And as a result, I developed generalized anxiety disorder and which I had to see, you know, a therapist for many years.. And I think going back to Ada's character, of course, post-traumatic stress disorder is, is much more severe case than a generalized anxiety disorder, but still they're both anxiety disorders. And I think through her character, I was trying to understand, and I'm always fascinated by the journey my characters go through or the human condition. So I was Yes, and how we all handle it. Yes, so I was analyzing that, and when I realized I was doing that, I was like, okay, that's amazing, that's amazing. So, whereas here I, you know, here I was thinking, oh, I've put that in the past, that's my past, I'm writing my new book, I'm, you know, I'm so over that phase, I've gotten over it, you know. But no, I hadn't. It was still with me, and it will always be with me. Uh, but it's about, I guess, learning how to live with it, you know. It is, but also, you know, when I hear about when people have possibly made mistakes or gone through something, I just, I just see that as a bit of a badge of honor for people to say, you know, we're not perfect. People have a bit more empathy for you and empathy for themselves as well. Um, so I think a lot can you imagine if, if we never made any mistakes? Life would be incredibly dull and, you know, probably an even scarier place. But so also, you know, bad experiences, uh, you, you know, you always learn from bad experiences. Not just, of course, you learn how to, you know, from yourself, you learn about yourself. But also, you know, since I had my terrible experience with the tabloid press, you know, I later on became I mean, I don't see myself as a journalist, but I did journalism. I did, you know, I've interviewed tons of artists and, you know, and I was very careful when interviewing them. You know, I mostly write for the Turkish press, but when I, you know, interview someone Turkish, I, well, first of all, I don't interview someone I think that I don't like their work, then I don't interview them. And I And when I interview people that I do, you know, admire and like their work, I, you know, I send the article to them because I don't want to sort of publish anything that they would find uncomfortable, they're uncomfortable with. And I, you know, I go beyond maybe a normal journalist in terms of making sure that I don't, you know, because it's out there. Once it's out there, you know, it represents their work, it represents what they, who they are as an artist or a writer. So I'm very careful with that. And would I have been as careful had I not gone through this experience myself? I think I would have never done anything, um, you know, intentionally to be mean at someone, but maybe I'd be a little less care, you know, I wouldn't be as careful, let's say. So I think because you've had the experience and you were understand the effects of it. I mean, we're all entitled to opinions, and with social media the way, the way it is, you know, it's full of opinions. But if you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. Yes, I agree. I agree. Don't have the, the words within you to express an opinion constructively instead of cruelly, then yeah, yeah. Yes, I'm in the same line as you are. Exactly. Well, this ties in quite nicely with— I do like to ask all my guests here on Get Booked for 3 of their favorite tips for looking after their mental health. What would be your 3 favorite tips? Well, you know, in my novel, Ada is seeing a therapist weekly, Marlene, who's a German lady from Munich. And Marlene tells Ada that whenever she's feeling very low and in a dark place, that she should think of herself, she should try to picture herself when she's in a more positive state, and that by doing so, she can adopt that frame of mind. And she likens this to flipping a light switch in one's awareness. Now, I don't think this is always as easy as it sounds. But I think by considering ourselves in a more positive state, because, you know, we— because when you're in such a low, dark place, it's sort of, you know, it's so far away from you, that sort of positive self. But when you think about it, because it's an emotion, you might not get to it straight away, but I think it's a step in the right direction. So that would be one. And that takes practice. Yes, definitely. Definitely. It doesn't happen, you know, as I said, but it's sort of you start associating, you know, it's the It's a step in the right direction, definitely. And the second one would be, again, I think, well, this is definitely one of the messages that I give in my novel, is to not give up on hope. I think hope is a very strong emotion, and it's a positive emotion, and it's not just in our personal lives. I think You know, when we're sort of worrying, I think everyone is worrying about climate crisis and, you know, various things that are happening around us. But also on a personal level, you know, when you have hope, it's such a positive, such a strong emotion, you know, it helps you act, you know, then you act and then there's progress. You move and you do things. So I think definitely hope, never to give up on hope, is my second. And the third tip? The third tip is something, yeah, that I often tell myself if I'm particularly low and just sort of gloomy on a day, like, you know, like nothing seems to be sort of lifting my spirits up. And, um, and then I, I just say, you know, tomorrow is another day. And with tomorrow, you know, uh, we have new beginnings. And tomorrow is always another day, you know, as in it's a new start. Yeah. So that sort of, sort of, I think it's a good, good coping mechanism, I would say. Every day offers a new opportunity. Yes, the day before might have been problematic, make, but there is always— there are always some change that we can make. There is always new opportunities to turn things around. I mean, what was it— there's a famous composer that said, it's, um, if you play a wrong note, it's the next one that makes it obvious as to whether you made a mistake or not. And that's not exactly how the phrase goes, and it's way more eloquently the way you see it on Instagram and Pinterest and everywhere else. But I love that whole concept You know, if you make a mistake, it's what you do next that matters. Exactly, exactly. I love that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for chatting to me today. I just want to point out to all of our listeners, especially our London-based listeners, that you've got a book talk and a Q&A on your novel with the art critic Richard Dyer, which is due to take place at Battersea Bookshop, which I don't know if you've been before, but it's such a fantastic bookshop. I love what they've done with the old Power Station. It looks brilliant in there. And I gather this is on the 6th of November where people can buy it at BatterseaBookshop.com. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. Thank you. Yes. Are you looking forward to that? I am. I am. Yes. Sort of excited. And yes, I am looking forward to it. I've never done something like this. But yeah, I, you know, I have to pinch myself. I am very much looking forward to it. I think you'll smash it out of the park. The Fugitive of Gezi Park is brilliant. I really enjoyed reading it. I found it entertaining. I found it quite interesting that so many different areas that I could identify with, but also about how it just helped me understand a little bit more, uh, about the world around. Because we do live sometimes with our head in the clouds, just going, I can't hear about anything else. But sometimes we need to understand each other more so that we can be more considerate. And I think that really came across in the book. So congratulations. I think— I hope you, you get a, a nicer ride from, from the media. But I think, you know, as you, as you've told a lot of our listeners, it's nice to learn lessons, and sometimes that can make us stronger and make better decisions moving forward. Thank Thank you so much for joining us on Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. Thank you. That was today's guest Denise Garan talking about her book The Fugitive of Gezi Park. And this is what I love about the show here at Women's and Men's Radio Station. We open discussions and offer support by the incredible writing community out there. Please do come and join us, get involved. And if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked. Now, I have been busy reading away at the moment, and I've been very lucky to read some fantastic books. And one that I read recently that was just— I couldn't put it down, it's fantastic. It was called Don't Look Away by Rachel Abbott. It was released in August and quite frankly, it was utterly brilliant. I couldn't get enough. It was fast-paced, addictive, beautifully descriptive, and very dark. One of my favorites. When Lola goes missing on a family break staying in her aunt's seaside cottage following the death of her mother weeks earlier, and only a few weeks before her dad dies in mysterious circumstances, Nancy, the sister left behind, has lived under a constant cloud of blame, shame, and immense trauma from all the unanswered questions regarding how her world imploded. Is she to blame for her sister's disappearance and the insufficient care her mother received? Years later, she returns to the very same cottage after her aunt dies, leaving her the property. However, during her visit, a body is found in a local cave, igniting a more comprehensive investigation into the town's activities and disappearance of her sister. Brace yourself, honestly, you will not want to put this one down. It was absolutely fantastic. Please do pop onto my website at hazelbutterfield.com for all my recent book reviews to see what you should sink your teeth into next. I'm always reading and I absolutely love it, and by all means, if you're listening and you've got a book coming out, or you've recently had a book released and you fancy coming on the show to chat to me, please do get in touch with me either via my website, or you can contact me via my Twitter @NuttyButty. Thank you so much for listening today. Today's guest was Denise Goran and her book The Fugitive of Gezi Park. And a quick reminder, she will be doing a book talk and Q&A on the novel with Art 'Art Critic Richard Dyer,' which is due to take place in Battersea Bookshop on the 6th of November. Pop onto batterseabookshop.com to book your place and keep an eye on that. It's a fantastic bookshop. I don't know if you've actually been to Battersea Power Station since it's been done up, but it is fantastic. And whenever I go, I do drag the kids or the dog into the bookshop to have a look around. They get some fantastic authors in there as well. As well. Please do go and check it out. Quick reminder there, battersea-bookshop.com. Now I do like to end our Get Booked shows with a little bit of a reminder of a previous show, and so now I'm going to play a little bit of a taster of a recent interview with Thomas Weaver and his book Artificial Wisdom. I loved our chat. He had so much to say. It was one of those ones where we could have carried on for hours and hours. Hopefully he'll get another book out soon and we can have him on as a repeat guest on Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield and you've been listening to Get Booked. Right, now on the show we are going to be looking at Artificial Wisdom by Thomas R. Weaver, an AI thriller that hits way too close to home in terms of where we are look— looking like we're heading as a global issue. In Artificial Wisdom, it is 2050 and the effects of global warming, ignored for too long as an issue for the future, has left the world unrecognizable. California no longer exists. London is a flood-transformed cesspit. Kuwait suffered an astronomical murderous heat wave that killed millions, and the rich have moved to floating islands that are climate-controlled and engineered to be a perfect solution for those that can afford it. A global dictator has to be elected to make all the important decisions for the planet to prevent an apocalypse, and the final two in the running are an ex-US president and an artelect, a fully AI commander who has been successfully managing the floating states for a decade. Politics, they are a day-to-day game at the best of times, but when global annihilation is at stake, we need truth-tellers like journalist Marcus Tully to make sure everyone has all the information required to make an informed decision as to who is the best candidate to save the This is an immaculate and creative piece of work by today's guest, author Thomas Weaver. And Artificial Wisdom, it's not only intoxicating, but it's terrifying. A fantastic thriller. And I'll now introduce today's guest, the author of Artificial Wisdom, Thomas Weaver. Hi, how are you? Hi, I'm great. Thank you for having me on You are very welcome. I've had, um, I've been devouring this book. It looks fantastic. I think the cover's just brilliant. But I've had so many people who have had their eye caught as I've been walking past, kind of head in a book. I'm one of the— I'm that annoying person that has a head in a book that walk around everywhere. And I've had people going, oh wow, what's this? And like 45 minutes later, you know, I'm on my way walking again. And you must be so proud bit. Uh, well, I am, because, and funnily enough, that was actually always my dream. Um, when I wanted to become a writer, aged, um, you know, I was probably around 9 or 10 when I first read Roald Dahl's BFG. And there's, there's a dream which the BFG gives Sophie, the protagonist, which is that she writes a book, and this book is so amazing that people are walking around not able to put it down, and their heads are in it, and, you know, they're crashing cars and, you know, uh, having all these accidents because they love this book so much. And I remember that scene captured me so much, I thought, I want to write something that captures people like that. And so that was my hope. And even if that only happens for one person, I will feel immeasurably proud of what I've managed to pull off. I think you don't have anything to worry about. It's— I've just been enthralled. I mean, it is intoxicating. I've annoyed many people by just kind of ignoring them and choosing to read the book instead because Yes, it's brilliantly written, it's a great story, but it's, it's so close to home. It's so easy to imagine that this is where we're going to be in 20, 30 years. And the detail you go into— and I read a bit at the back about how, you know, a lot of people kind of pushed you to go into more detail and be more creative and go back and redo things and expand on them. And it's It's so intricate, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I, you know, I'm a big fan of thinking about the future. I've always loved great science fiction. Um, you know, my, one of my favorite movies as a kid was Back to the Future 2, where obviously they go into 2015 and it's this, it's pretty utopian actually as to what you might imagine things to look like today. But the thing I always felt was that, um, you know, we always imagine massive change over a future period, whereas Whereas in actual fact, if you look back over your lifetime, you know, 15, 30 years, you can see that whilst there are some things that have moved a lot, there are other things that have moved very slowly. And so, you know, I really didn't want to write a future with flying cars. You know, I wanted to, to take the things good and bad that we can see evident in today and project them forward 30 years. It's not actually that long a period. And obviously I did that from a technological point of view. I took things that we can see emerging today, like augmented reality, and said, okay, what will that look look like in 30 years' time, but also of course having to, to take the state of, um, of the planet into account and, and the geopolitical landscape. Um, you know, how will things like climate shift, um, everything we understand about things like borders and where people live and, um, where's even habitable? Um, so that— so yeah, I mean, there was a lot, obviously a lot of thinking going on. It was a lot of it was born from worry and my own worries about the world and where it's heading and the, the feeling that, um, you know, we obviously have this space to act now, um, and unless we actually start acting now, we are going to find ourselves in an even bigger pit to extract ourselves from, which is surely the role of any science fiction. It is to paint like some of the pictures of this is what happens if you ignore all of our And this is the thing, and in artificial wisdom, just for all the listeners, they— it's been decided that they need to elect a global leader because this is the problem. We're always working against each other. There are so many nations that don't agree with other nations, and so sometimes you kind of feel like they're working against them just to spite them. And so it has to be one person making the decisions and we're all on exactly the same path, otherwise it's just a wasted journey. So I think the concept is fantastic, and I think it's, you know, it's not far from what is very likely going to happen because we do all work against each other. And I think there's a lot of people that just think, oh, there's so much that needs to be done, what's the point? Because we're doing this and somebody else is ruining it 10 steps down the road. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can see even this morning, I mean, there's topical news about the UK government, uh, you know, changing their, their kind of green policy. Um, but, but what actually sparked this one for me, I remember it actually very vividly a few years ago reading an article about how certain countries above a particular latitude will actually be beneficiaries of climate change because as the Arctic warms and as, you know, a lot of the sort of tundra and the kind of areas which today are in places like Siberia and in kind of, you know, the very north part of Canada and Alaska, you know, there are going to be the, uh, resources that open up. And that really floored me because it kind of brought a lot of things into perspective. The idea that actually, um, of course, you know, if you're, if you're living below that latitude, of course you think, well, you know, we can't destroy the planet for resources. And then yet there are probably a few countries thinking, actually, you know what, this is going to be good to me. And so I kind of realized this is such a complicated issue, it's incredibly complicated, but the climate is interconnected. If one country is polluting very heavily, other countries pay the price. And therefore individual policies on a country-by-country level, I was thinking, well, you know, ultimately it's going to make no sense. We're not going to be able to tackle it. What if one country decides to launch a load of dust into the atmosphere or, you know, something to geoengineer, kind of block the sun. Can they do that? Like, what's the rules on this kind of thing? How do you make decisions which affect everyone, uh, from a national standpoint? Um, and so that's really— that was really the inspiration for this idea of a dictator, um, which was, you know, it's become such a negative word. And actually, one— I had one editor beg me to take it out because they said, look, dictator is— it, you know, it's a bad word, it's a negative word. But obviously, it wasn't always a negative word. Actually, the Romans— actually, Caesar actually had a bunch of dictators, and they were appointed literally just to come in, solve a crisis. Like, hey, we've got a bunch of Carthaginians coming over the Alps at us and marching on Rome. What do we do? Go fix it. Here's all the power. They go and fix it. They come back, you know, and hand power back. And that was the point of dictatorship in early Rome. Well, this is the thing. It's part of it is reworking the narrative and reworking preconceived ideas I mean, we've been harping on for the last 30 years about how we're scared computers and robots are going to take over the human race. And yet they have the capability to do things that we can't do. And it's a fine line between trying to figure out what we should use AI for. And if— well, I suppose it's an age-old issue of if you give too much power, Well, can you get it back? Do you regain control? We all like to keep control. Which was the issue with the dictators in the first place. And that, you know, this is where it kind of went off the rails with Julius Caesar, who decided not to give power back. You know, but I think this is really valid what you just said around AI and computers, because when we write books, when we create movies, when we, you know, film these wonderful TV series that are around today, way, we seed people's imaginations for better or for worse. And of course, when you're telling stories, the obvious thing to do is to paint some worst-case scenarios because that's what makes stories interesting. Characters have to dig themselves out of a hole that they've got themselves into. And so I think it's perfectly natural that actually sci-fi writers over the last 30 years have imagined the worst cases of robots and AI and have seeded it to the point where we do imagine, of course, that these things are gonna destroy us because if we were suddenly catapulted to the, you know, the top of the power chain, we'd probably do that. So we see it from our own perspective, but that is possible. And I, you know, I don't think anybody can say, but I'm a tech optimist, but I'm somewhere in the middle where I'm a tech optimist who always believes that whatever innovation we have comes at a price. You know, we have smartphones which have transformed our world but have stolen our attention in the process. You know, so there's, there's a huge amount of positives that have come from it and a huge amount of negatives. And I know we'll get on to mental health later, but I think smartphones is a great one to talk about in that segment. Well, actually, let's go on to the mental health, mental well-being elements. Obviously, women's radio station and men's radio, radio station, we are We are constantly trying to produce information in our shows to try and help people understand their mental health and how to be able to focus positively on their wellbeing. And it is issues like this. The more knowledge we have, the more scary it is. But, you know, it is how we consume that knowledge as well, how we use the information that is out there and the technologies that are out there to not absolutely petrify And yet, you know, at the same time, you know, global warming, it could be an apocalypse. But there are people saying, yeah, but I've got real issues now that have to be addressed now. You know, there's, there's starving nations and there are people who are petrified about paying their bills. There are so many different issues for everybody and it's, it is a mental health issue. Because what do we do when we feel completely overwhelmed with information? We just find a great big pot of sand and stick our head in it. Yeah, and maybe that's exactly what's happening now. I do think that the, you know, the signal-to-noise ratio, if we can call it that, in information is just, um, it's vastly shifted over the, over the last decade and a half, two decades. You know, suddenly anybody with a social media account can post an opinion, um, you know, they can post a point of view, and we're drowning in it. We're drowning in so many perspectives, some of which, um, you know, are from experts that really know what they're talking about, and some of which are not. But it doesn't seem to matter because actually, um, unfortunately, people are finding that the, the the kind of more negative news you can, uh, you can talk about, the more that gets shared. You know, the, the bigger negative thing that you can say, the more that gets attention. So we're in this horrible kind of spiral loop, really, where, um, you know, it's suddenly attention has become a drug. You know, we're no longer really experiencing things, we're sort of, um, we're filming them, um, you know, watching them through the lens of a smartphone. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day, you know, they were at a fireworks display and everybody was filming the fireworks display and nobody was watching. Oh, that kills me when I see that. Yeah, so, and you're never going to watch it back, right? So we, to some extent, we've chosen to drown ourselves a little bit in this sea. And I do think actually taking control a little bit and just starting to try and step away from these things a little bit more and step away from your phone and try and be in the moment is, you know, is critical. And, you know, not getting sucked into anything too polarizing. If you're finding that you're just consuming a lot of stuff that you agree with, you've probably got to be asking yourself a question as to, you know, whether you're in some kind of echo chamber and whether you're really, really actually just choosing to hear things you want to hear. I find it interesting because the information is so easily accessible. It's all based around moral panic, clickbait, making people press on the next link and want to find out more and more and more. It's all distorted. All the information has a grain of truth just to get people to listen even more. I have teenage boys who are constantly on Instagram and TikTok and telling me about all these things that seem to be happening in politics and global warming. And I'm like, but the information you've just given me, you do realize that can't be true. It's— you're just consuming this information because it is delivered in a way to make you keep on watching, to get the views, to click on the next link, and yet you're relaying it, and yet you're going to then go and plug in your phone again, keep on watching more, and there's actually no action. There seems to be a completely counterproductive response to all this poor information. Yeah, I'm with you. I've got two teenage girls, so I'm, you know, super worried about this too, and we've had some real interesting experiences so far with social media, particularly around TikTok. Talk. Um, I will, I will slightly offer a defense, which is, um, I do find that the number of things my girls know about the world at their age compared to what I knew is vastly, vastly superior. Like, they seem well, way more plugged in, for better or for— I don't know, right? Um, so, so sometimes the level of discourse that we have with our kids blows me away because I'm like, God, how do you even know about some of things. But of course they will sometimes spout things which they've obviously got from influencers, and teenagers being teenagers, they're right, and you know, you don't know what you're talking about. I do see that as an opportunity to educate them, and, or at least engage in the discussion. You know, I think a great one for me is generally around things like cancel culture and in history, where it's a very complicated It's obviously a bunch of people who, you know, may have done some bad things in their lives and a bunch of good things in their lives. And, you know, I think that's a great one to debate with kids. What's right and what's wrong? You know, do we upend an entire person's legacy because of, you know, an incident which by the judgment of their time wasn't necessarily bad, but is bad by today's morals?
