Get Booked – Jenna Adams, ‘Can I Stray’ 101022

Hello, you're listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield and a huge book fan, so I love doing this show. Get Booked is all about talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different guest each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. On today's show, we are going to be talking to the author Jenna Addams, and she's released a book called Can I Stray? That's available to buy from the 11th of October on ebook and in paperback. Now this is a captivating coming-of-age story perfect for the fans of Kate Elizabeth Russell and Holly Bourne. This debut novel explores consent, mental health, and the complex world of teenage sexual politics. 14-year-old Brooke Tyler has spent her life waiting for a boy to choose her. Matt is about to go to university, scared to leave behind everything he knows. When both are cast as romantic leads in Romeo and Juliet, they fulfill the roles of forbidden lovers both on and off stage. Brooke is sure that her fairy tale is coming true, and best of all, Matt is older. Brooke considers secrets and lies a small price to pay for her first boyfriend, but the relationship is set to cost her the moment they have sex. When Brooke learns that Matt's actions that night were illegal, her world shatters. Years later, Brooke and Matt reunite as adults. Matt wants to undo all the damage he caused, but Brooke makes a choice which forces them both to question their relationship. Told in 3 acts, this debut reveals a young woman's journey for independence as she strays away from everything she has ever known to navigate her traumatic past. Author Jenna Adam lives in London and writes from her 3rd floor flat which is covered in plants. She always has a book in a handbag and runs Twitter @JennaAdamsBooks and Instagram @JennaAdamsBooks. Where she posts about her favorite novels. Jenna's debut novel, Can I Stray?, is a new adult book about codependency, mental health, and issues of consent. Very prevalent issues, especially in the current climate. Find out more about jennaadamswriter.com. I am super excited to get this interview going today because this is a topic that needs to be discussed. We need to have more understanding, and people need to be able to deal with their demons and make sure that they have the best information and strength of character to do what is right, to know what is right, and have healthy, strong relationships with other people, but more importantly with ourselves. You can find out more about Get Booked and the previous shows at Women's Radio Station www.womensradio.com/shows/getbooked and on my website at hazelbutterfield.com. And you can pop on to either my or Women's Radio Station SoundCloud to listen to previous shows. Now we do have some incredible shows coming up for you in the coming weeks. We do have Kathleen Quinlan, who's going to be helping us find our inner champion, and then we're going to be speaking to to the incredible Laura Price with her fictional novel Single Bald Female. Please do go and check that out. That's gonna be coming along in a couple of weeks. And we will also be chatting to the author of Lady Sapiens, Thomas Kirito, who is going to be looking at what prehistoric women were really like. Super exciting. I've just started reading that one now and it is definitely going to be a fantastic show. If you are a book fan or maybe you have a— your debut novel coming out, please do get in touch with me at hazel@hazelbutterfield.com, or you can get in touch with me on Twitter @NootyButty, and let's try and get you on the show. What I am also trying to do at the moment, I want to curate a show with PR specialists and literary agents and publishing specialists to help all of our listeners help get published or just find it a little bit easy to possibly promote their book as well. There's so many of you out there that have some fantastic hints and tips, and if you wanted to come on the show, I'd absolutely be delighted. Or maybe if you just want to get in touch with a few little pointers and I can read them out for you, maybe a little bit of promo on your company as well. So yeah, GetBooked is here for you. I love doing this show and I absolutely love getting involved with the writing community. Now, as mentioned earlier in the show, we have Jenna Adams, the author of the debut novel Can I Stray. Sometimes a book just cuts through you and gets you really assessing everything you know or thought you knew, and more importantly, getting you questioning right and wrong. This had me so deep in nostalgia, reminiscing about first loves, first date relationships, emotional minefields, and the dreaded ambiguity. Exploring the complexities of young love, wanting to be accepted, to be mature, and the raging hormones. How the relevance of age differences that 10 years later just evaporates, or at least it can do. It's so open to speculation. The difference between right, wrong, and grooming and authenticity. Is our past not what we thought it was? We don't know what we don't know, which is often the case, um, or at least we didn't. And books like this help us to understand ourselves a little bit more. Knowledge can be earth-shattering and completely change our past. Knowledge can make us feel vulnerable, but yet also helps us to understand the issues we have bubbling under the surface. This is a very insightful read that throws our history into a kind of speculative oblivion, and rightly so. It explains a lot of issues many women and men are currently dealing with. Was it me? Was it my fault? Are These My Issues? It's just an incredible book, and I'm so excited to invite Jenna to the show. Uh, welcome Jenna, thank you for joining me on Get Booked. Thank you so much for having me, Hazel. I'm so excited to be here. Oh, me too, me too. I've just, um, this is one of those books that, um, I have been chatting about with my dog walking girls, and they've all just been sitting there going, oh, I know. Um, and it's just, you're posing the question, and what we thought back in our home, our teenage youth was okay, and then suddenly we look back and just think, oh, we all have our own kids that are 14, 15, and the idea of how we were or what happens and what teenagers go through, it's just, it's very scary, isn't it? Yeah, it is, um, definitely. And I think like even in just the 8 years since I left school, things have got so different. I mean, with the advance of technology, we've seen like different problems that teenagers are facing compared to what I certainly experienced when I was at school. And those— the technology requires, you know, a different, a different level of education about how should we advise children and young people to be dealing with these issues. I mean, in some, in some ways, I think a lot of adults feel like we don't have the answers either. It's a complete minefield, as I said. I mean, I know what I was like when I was 14. I wanted to think I was older. I didn't want to hang out with boys my age because, quite frankly, they were just still wanting to pull my hair and talk about Xbox and things like that. Um, like the Xbox was around when I was 14, but you get the gist. Um, but it horrifies me to think how I wanted to be when I was 14, and I have two boys, one's 15, about to turn 16, and it's, it's interesting having these conversations, these very important conversations, and I think books like this just help us to take on such a broad spectrum of what is going on and the importance and just, you know, how, how it can affect our lives going on. I think it was beautifully written, by the way, congratulations, you've written a fantastic book. Thank you, that's very kind. And I think let's kick off by discussing the format of the book first, to give an insight into how the story is told, and then we'll go into the many, many topics. This is going to be one of those shows where we're going to get to the end of the show and I've probably not even got through a quarter of what I want to discuss with you. So the book's in 3 acts, isn't it? Yes, the book is a 3-act structure and the chapters are titled scenes, Act 1, Scene 1, etc., to kind of reflect the background of the setting of the book where it begins at the very beginning, which is a drama group, a youth drama group outside of school, just a drama club. And then we also have the two-character perspective, which— so we see our protagonist Brooke, we see her point of view, and then we also see Matt, the kind of our second main character, and we kind of jump between their viewpoints. And I find that quite interesting because it's very hard to decipher where you stand on the whole situation constantly throughout the book. But regardless, it is illegal what's happened. But it's— this is why, you know, raging hormones— we, we can't take responsibility and decisions and choices away from these youths, you know, 13, 14, 15-year-olds, 16, 17, 18-year-olds. But yet they are still children. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, I think that's one of the things in the book, because when you're reading a first-person perspective, I don't know if you agree, Hazel, but usually you want what the protagonist wants. Yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely. So, in, but in this book, you might have conflicting feelings because Brooke, at the very beginning, clearly wants this relationship. Yeah. But so the reader may be kind of torn between, that natural, I'm reading a book, I want what the protagonist wants, and I'm not sure. And a different feeling of feeling like I'm not sure if she wants what's best for her and I'm not sure she's making the best choices. And I think some people, especially parents, can feel protective of her. And yeah, and there are those, there are those conflicting feelings. And but in the fact that you get to see Matt's perspective as well. I think the book invites you to be able to, to see both their perspectives and to have— you can have empathy for both of them. Um, but at the end, I think it does ask you to kind of make a decision on, on how you feel about the ethics of what happened and if, if what happened was wrong. I mean, the characters certainly have the— have a conversation about whether what happened was, was wrong or not, whether it was okay, at the very end of the book. Um, and so I think it's kind of inviting you to, to go on that journey with them, grow up with them, and understand both their point of views, but still make a decision about the ethics of it, and still be able to kind of view it both from their subjective points of view, but also try and view the situation objectively from the reader's point of view. It's very hard, isn't it? Because I have many friends who are in their late 40s, 50s, who, you know, they had a boyfriend when they were 15, and even the fact that he was maybe a couple of days over 16 and they'd been in a relationship for God knows how long, and even if there was consent— but let's be honest, we are only learning so much about consent now. We— what we thought was consent before we thought it was stating yes or no rather than, you know, being a willing participant and being asked. It's constantly evolving. But, you know, I— you now have people looking back and going, wow, what I did with my boyfriend, what he did was rape. Yeah, absolutely. Coming to terms with that is quite earth-shattering, isn't it? Yeah, it certainly can be. And I think that that's the kind of— we see that earth-shattering moment for Brooke when she's kind of coming to this realization in her adulthood that what happened as a teenager was illegal. And she's kind of unpacking— oh, well, she also has the earth-shattering moment when she finds out the law, but shortly after it happens, a few months after it happens, when she's 14. And I think that that does really kind of change the perspective because we live in— we live in a world where a lot of people, especially young people, especially young girls, grow up believing that, you know, that things that happen to them are okay and normal and completely, you know, there's no question that what happens to them is just normal and is acceptable. And the treatment they receive can often feel— I think a lot of people believe that the treatment they receive is fair and that they deserve the treatment they receive and that things that happen to are somehow they're responsible for them. And it's not until— it can often not be until you kind of get that education wherever it comes from, whether it's just talking about it from a friend or whether you learn the law or whether it's relationships and sex education classes in schools. And then you look back and you have that, you have that moment where you realize that what happened, maybe your perspective on it changes. Like we see Brooke's perspective on the situation change and you might be able to unpack that a bit. And I think we see Brooke kind of develop empathy for her younger self because when she's looking back at her 14-year-old self, I think she views that girl as like a bit bratty and a bit dramatic. And like she's kind of— maybe she just views her as like really annoying and like not the most reasonable person. But then in therapy, she's able to kind of look at her younger self and be like, is, you know, she was a child, she deserved protection, she didn't know what was best for her and she wasn't equipped to like make the right choices for herself. And she was, she was kind of failed in a way because she wasn't protected from, from this happening to her. But yet there was very little that somebody else could have done to protect her because I know that if my mum had tried to stop me doing something, it just made me want to do it even, even more. At the age of 14, I thought I was so incredibly mature. I was convinced I was the maturest person that I knew, uh, and that— and it's— and sometimes we just— our self-worth is based around, especially when we're young, about how much somebody else wants us. And what we do to achieve that is— well, incredibly scary. Yeah, absolutely. I think, like, you really hit the nail on the head there because Brooke, like, absolutely would not listen to— she doesn't listen to her friend Lucy, she doesn't listen to the people around her because she really, really wants this. And I was the same at 14. I really thought I knew what was best for me. And I— and that, that very belief could have, could have put me in a vulnerable situation where I think I was— someone could have taken advantage of that consciously or unconsciously. And The story is, the story is fiction. The relationship is fiction, but it is, it is something we see happening in our, in our society and in our everyday lives. And so, yeah, with Brooke, God, I'm having a complete mind blank. I've forgotten. Oh, do you know what? I have these all the time at the moment. I have to write down notes. You had such a great question or a great point, and I had something to say and I've forgotten what it was. I do know what though, it will come back to you. I have full faith. Do you know how many times women are having this at the moment? Because we are constantly ridiculously busy and juggling so much that all of a sudden we just go, no idea why I came into this group. And I know I had— what's something that I keep on doing is I keep on blurting things out because I know that if I don't say it there and then, it's going to leave. It's going to leave my brain. Do you? I know that you're a huge fan of books and I know this is a bit of a tangent, but do you have a cute little notebook and a pen at the side of your bed so that if you suddenly think of something, you can quickly write it down? Otherwise it will plague your mind and you know you'll forget it. Yeah. I mean, I have these moments when I'm falling asleep and I think of like this amazing sentence and I'm so tired that there's no way I'm going to sit up and pick up the pen. There's no way. So I just try and say it over and over and remember it. By the morning, it's obviously gone. Like, yeah, completely gone. I'm never going to remember that. Never mind. Moment of genius that no one will ever know. Oh, the joys. Well, but it would have been to do with the fact that we wanted to be older. When we, when we were younger, we were convinced that, you know, we wanted to be mature. I remember starting a relationship when I was 16 with somebody who was in his early 20s, and I was so frustrated that he wasn't proud of our relationship and we kept it secret, and it really damaged my self-worth. And it's only recently that I've looked back at it and gone, yeah, it's probably just a little bit cautious there. Yeah, absolutely. I think that is one of the things because, yeah, you mentioned that kind of Brooke as a teenage girl, she's kind of pining after this love and this, this validation from, from a romantic male, preferably older source. And, and I think that is something that is like that is often part of the teenage girl experience. Fortunately, not all teenage girls. Unfortunately, there are plenty of teenage girls who do have, like, a healthy, loving relationship with themselves and respect their own boundaries. But I think, like, there are some girls who— I mean, Brooke describes herself as codependent. That's what she uncovers in therapy. So she's kind of spent her whole life just pining after this external validation and this love coming from another source, which means she's kind of like the first person who's going to give it to her, she's gonna, she's gonna jump on board with them. That's what happens in the book, and it turns out to not be in her best interest. And I think it's the thing as, as well, you mentioned that there's no one protecting her, and it's almost like you can't protect her because she will— she's making these decisions and they're not her best decisions, and she's kind of delving into this. We can see her slipping into hotter water, and you want to like drag her out, but as she makes kind of increasingly, um, decisions aren't in her best interest. Um, but I think that's the thing when it comes back to relationships and sex education, like, young people are going to make their own choices, and in lots of ways we can't control their choices. All you can do is, uh, arm them with the best information you can so that they can make the right choices for themselves. And I think that's when it comes back to relationships and sex education and starting those conversations early and unpacking unpacking consent early on and unpacking gender dynamics early on and kind of understanding, because by the time Brooke's 14, she has no idea how, you know, she's got this pining after love thing that's making her vulnerable, and she has no idea that about gender dynamics and the fact that men and boys can often be seen as the decision makers, especially when it comes to sexual decision making. She has no idea any of that because no one's armed her with this information. She doesn't— a child. Exactly. Yeah, she's a child. Um, and I think that's the thing. We, we— I think a lot, certainly at my school, when I was at school, um, I do think relationships and sex education has got a lot better in the last 8 years since I left school. But, um, I would say that, you know, we got a lot of sex and relationships education that came way too late. Like, it came at 17, 18 years old, like over the age of consent. People had been having I knew like tons of people who I went to school with who'd had sex with more than one person by the time that, that lesson came. By the time we're putting the condom on the plastic, um, plastic thing, uh, the banana, the banana, people have already put it on, you know, used it for real. By the time we're getting that lesson, it's come— it's coming way too late. And I think that's the thing, we, we're not arming children and young people with with the information they need to be able to, like, make the right choices for themselves. Well, I think it's also to do with when people have low self-esteem, they want people to like them, and there's that misconception that people will like them if you let them do what you, you want and you become popular. You know, it's, it's so, it's so tricky. I mean, as I said, it was, um, it really did bring me back, take me back to my youth when so many friends were quite sexually active at 15 and 16. And, you know, I'm having these conversations with my kids now, which I'm sure you can imagine they absolutely thoroughly love. But, you know, the main thing— and it seems ridiculous— well, actually, it's— no, it's not ridiculous. But the main thing I say, you know, my son's going to be 16 in December, and I said, sweetheart, you can be 'One day over 16, and if you're with a girlfriend who is one day away from 16, it is statutory rape and it will ruin your life. Do you understand?' Yeah, absolutely. It's pointing— honestly, I think books like Can I Stray, if that was— if they were forced to read that and have open discussions in school, because it's fictional and it's in a more kind of readable format— they don't have a teacher trying to speak to them about sex, which they just don't want, quite frankly, no matter how old or young the teacher is. If it's put into real life situations where they can understand how much it can mess up their lives and just the mental health elements and the damage of doing something that you didn't quite understand, and then you just try and ignore it because the knowledge is terrifying. That stuff doesn't just evaporate, it bubbles and eventually explodes. Which is, you know, I'm sure a lot of the mental health issues that are so prevalent at the moment are down to the fact that people just— they didn't know what they didn't know, and they did things that put them in— they've put them in situations that they're not comfortable with and they don't quite understand. Yeah, absolutely. So we don't know what we don't know. And I think, um, you know, if, if kids had a better conduit of understanding this, you know, if they understood that if they actually give proper consent, if they are mature enough to be having sex, they're mature enough to actually turn around to the person they want to have sex with and say, 'By the way, are you okay with this?' If they're not comfortable with asking the outright question, they're not comfortable enough to really be doing something so intimate with somebody. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the, um, one of the kind of issues with our current relationships and sex education is that it's very— I mean, I was just reading, um, Losing It by Sophia Smith-Gaylor, which is about a lot of kind of myths that we have been taught about sex and sexuality and sex education. And she, she sat in on a virtual, uh, lesson, um, for, for teenagers, a school relationships and sex education class, and the class was on consent. And she said it was just— it just seemed really not fit for purpose. It made it seem really scary. It was full of legal definitions and legal jargon. It was really inaccessible and didn't at all focus on what you might want to do. I mean, she points out that the theme of our RSE in schools so far has been— I mean, certainly in my lifetime, it was a series of don'ts. It was don't get pregnant, then don't get an STI, and now it's don't do anything without consent. It's a series of can'ts. I mean, I got this quote from her in the book where she says, I should have been taught less about saying an outright no and more about how to know what I want, ask for it, and to be prepared to make new choices if I was denied it. I think that's the thing with these. I mean, have you seen the video that's called like Consent is Tea? It's like comparing the, like, the rules of sexual consent to tea. Like, oh, someone's unconscious, don't pour tea down their throat. Oh wow, no, I've not. It's like, it's this really, it's this animation that's trying to like clarify, clarify consent, trying to make it like this really easy, simple metaphor. And she, you know, is saying if you want, if you want You offer someone a cup of tea and they say, yes please, I'd like a cup of tea, then you know they want the tea. And it's making, um, firstly it's just a bit confusing because it's like, it's not tea, is it? There's not— the situation looks like— that's not what, um, sexual situations look like. They don't look like making someone a cup of tea. But I appreciate the concept, and I think sometimes it has to be simple for people to understand really complex concepts. Yeah. And I think Yeah, it does do a good job of like clarifying the kind of the criteria you want to meet to ensure you're getting consent. But what it doesn't do is, is it kind of, it can make it seem like it's so simple that it should be obvious, and that it's not. And that's that consent or sexual decision-making shouldn't be a conversation, and absolutely should. Like, we should, we should be encouraging young people to be thinking about what they do want, what they don't want, having a conversation about that, and and connecting with each other rather than just thinking it should be screamingly obvious. So, yeah, I mean, in the book she says that T video would be really helpful for, like, if you've got someone for 5 minutes one night before they go out to Freshers' Week. But is it arming them for the rest of their life? Is it arming them for long-term relationships and marriage? It does seem a bit convoluted because there's a moment in it where it says, Oh, if someone says, yeah, maybe I want some tea, you can boil the kettle and you can get the cup out, but you can't force them to drink the tea. And young people are saying, well, hang on, what is getting the tea out? What is that meant to be like, taking off your clothes or, you know, what is it? Breaking down the different elements. Exactly. I think it's like it was meant to simplify it, and in some ways it did, but in other ways it overcomplicated it. And it's not perfect. None of this is, but I think there's— we can always be discussing how to improve this and make it more accessible for young people. Wow. I mean, the thing is, these Get Booked shows, they go out on women's radio station and men's radio station because we're talking about topics that both men and women need to know about. I mean, I'm very lucky that this book show goes out on both stations. But they— these are issues of both men and women. And the conversations I have— I've got this walking group where we go off on a morning, we walk with the dogs, we spend 45 minutes, um, stomping around, we air everything that's in our head, come back, and we've kind of had a little bit of a brain dump and we're cleansed. We quite often talk about the books that I'm reading at the moment, what's going on at home. And, um, quite often the blokes go, 'Can we come too? Because we felt like we're missing out on this.' And we'll quite often talk about, like, can I stray? And the blokes will go, 'It's a nightmare for us.' And we need to talk about both sides of this, because blokes are going, 'Yeah, we need to get consent,' but then also, we then— it kind of ruins the moment that sometimes people just want to be taken and and have that spontaneity, and it feels like you're sitting people down and asking them to sign a contract first. There's so many different elements that people just don't understand how far they're supposed to go to. And I've seen this as well, you know, where even my female friends, they say, oh, it kind of kills the buzz a bit when he's asking for consent. It's such a tough subject, isn't it? Yeah, and, um, and I think that's like, you really like, that's, that's one of the biggest things, especially when young people are having some of their first sexual experiences and they've got their information from like movies, romantic movies, or, you know, um, romantic movies are not the best place to get ideas on sex from, otherwise we'll all feel incredibly inadequate and get a little bit depressed that things don't work out how some incredibly rich Hollywood writer has devised it. Yeah. Oh my God, absolutely. And yeah, and I think that those movies can make sex seem like it's something that just happens. It's really natural and you're in the moment and there's no communication necessary and there's no, um, you know, checking people's boundaries or checking people are comfortable, or just even conversations about, uh, contraception or conversations about what we might be in the mood for, what we're not in the mood for, whether our Bodies are obeying what we want them to do, um, all these kind of things. And so I think especially when young people are going out and maybe they're having a one-night stand or they're, they're having a very new sexual situation that's new to them or a new partner, they can have that feeling of it's going to ruin the mood to kind of have this conversation. And I think it's the thing we don't give in these, in these lessons. We're not giving them an example of what asking for consent can look like and, and especially asking if in a way that doesn't ruin the mood or even adds to the mood. Um, uh, because I think some people find it really like embarrassing to ask or to even talk during sex. If you're that embarrassed to ask, but yet you're embarrassed to be completely butt naked and actually have intercourse, then surely there's a, there's a ridiculous line there, isn't there? Yeah, and I think, I think that's, that comes with, um, with like kind of sexual autonomy and the idea that I think, I think men and boys feel a lot of pressure to perform and deliver, and it's very much tied to the masculinity and identity there. And for girls, it can often feel like we've been taught, um, that sex is something that happens to us and something that— compliant. Yeah, we're compliant, we're not the sexual decision makers. The boy or the man decides you know, what's going to happen. And, um, and that's it. We just kind of accept. Um, and I know, I know there are, there are people that go home together and, and maybe the girl wants to go a certain length of far, she doesn't want to go any further than that, but she doesn't necessarily feel like she can say, or she's not being asked. Um, this isn't— this is quite interesting because I think you've covered a lot of different areas in Can I Stray in terms of what consent can look like, what comfortableness and right and wrong can look like. And I remember a particular scene in, I think it was a Netflix program where there was a guy saying, oh, do you know what? Sometimes, you know, you have sex and then the next day she doesn't— she can't be— but she won't even look you in the eye next day and she can't be bothered. And, you know, that makes me feel really bad about myself. And then the woman turned around and said, if she didn't have anything to do with you the next time, it meant she was uncomfortable with what was happening and she doesn't want it. She's not comfortable with being near you again. That's very likely going to be the case. You know, um, consent isn't saying, yes, please do this to me. Consent is enthusiasm, it is consciousness, it is being a part of the situation rather than, as you said, it happening to you. And, you know, there are lots of different ways, and I think your book book really does make that very clear, that there are lots of different ways that you can ensure that somebody is comfortable with what is happening. Yeah, and I think what that comes down to is just empathy, and is rather than viewing it as like, oh, I've ticked all the boxes and now I can do whatever I want because I got the ticks, it's instead having the empathy and being like, do I honestly wholeheartedly believe that my partner wants this and wants what's happening. And I think that's where— that's when we talk about enthusiastic consent. I know recently some of— some sex educators have been talking about instances where you might not have enthusiastic consent. For example, if you're trying to try for a baby, just do it. But if you— if you're trying for a baby, the chances are you do know each other exactly. You have like, um, you have like a much, um, you know each other very, very well, and so you'd be able to So sometimes you're just putting out because you want him to empty the dishwasher. I mean, that's a very different situation. Exactly. There are lots of reasons why, why people, why people do want to have, have sex. Sorry, it's so true though. I'd say, yeah, I'd say like in a new experience with someone new, you do want to be checking for that enthusiasm. You do want to be checking that, that they seem to be enjoying it. Um, and Yeah, and that they want to be there. And if you're not sure, then ask. Always, always ask. That's, that's certainly what I think my characters kind of wish they had done. Well, yeah, and a bit like what I said before we came on air, and I know we've been talking about some really hard-hitting topics here in Can I Stray, but there was quite a lot of uplifting elements to this book for me, and weirdly quite some happy moments. I mean, a lot of people would say when, when she decided to stray. A lot of people may think, oh, she's very selfish, she abandoned X, Y, and Z and just looked out for herself. But for me, I thought, do you know what, well done you. People get a lot of mental health issues because they're living to please other people, and sometimes we need to put ourselves first to become healthier. And until we're healthy, we can't be in healthy relationships with our friends, our family, or our partners. And I, I loved the journey in the third act that she went through. There were certain parts of that journey that obviously were, were not very pleasant for her, but I loved it that she decided to really rein in her autonomy and find herself. And I think we're not selfish enough sometimes in looking after ourselves because until we're comfortable within ourselves, we can't be good for other people. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point because, um, there's this— I was, I was literally actually just listening to a podcast between, um, Munroe Bergdorf, the model, and, um, the writer Sean Faye, um, who wrote The Transgender Issue. And they were, they were on this podcast and they were talking about, um, this idea of like being a perfect victim and the idea that if you're, if you're LGBTQ like they are and you've had maybe trauma and bad experiences in your life and certainly experienced like queerphobia, there's this idea that people expect, put them on a pedestal and expect them to have this beautiful like arc of, I went from being a victim and now I'm this like really empowered woman. And they were pointing out that like for both of them, like trauma can make you a bit of a nightmare sometimes. Like it can make you hard to be around. It can mean you hurt other people. And I think that's exactly what we see with Brooke. Like, she's had this experience, and then her family gets hurt. And, um, she's not— when she's, when she's codependent, she's, um, in— she's sometimes— she's in this healthy relationship towards the end of the book, um, much healthier, but she's still codependent, and she's still kind of disrespecting her partner's boundaries and being really dependent on him, emotionally dependent on him, even though things are a lot better and he's much nicer person than some of the people she's been with in the past, it's still like, even though these things aren't her fault, it's not her fault that bad things have happened to her. It's not her fault that she was raised in a certain way and she's grown up, like, really seeking love. But what it— it also doesn't excuse her behavior and the fact that she's now an adult and she has to think about who she wants to be. Is some of her behavior hurting other people? How can she stop that? And ultimately she does. She chooses to improve herself and go to therapy and work on herself. Um, the best gift we can give ourselves is to understand ourselves, and until we do that, we, we can't respond properly to other people. And I think it's so incredibly important. Yeah, so the more we understand each other is the best gift that we can give to ourselves, and it can be traumatic, but we're just going to keep on making mistakes if we're not living authentically and understanding our issues. Now, something that I was intrigued as I was reading about this in Can I Stray, was it intentional, the whole dysfunctional relationship with her father being possibly the catalyst for why her self-worth was low and she did end up wanting attention from somebody older? Yeah, I do think those things are very much connected for Brooke. Um, I mean, if she's going to kind of be codependent from a very young age and kind of be walking around seeking love, always feeling like she's not good enough, always feeling like she wants male attention. I think like that kind of— that had to come from somewhere for her. So for her, it was, it was the fact that her, her father is very not really involved in her life, and when he is, he's just not there in the way, uh, she needs him to be. And I think that does— that has caused her to like have this need and inside of her that's, that's seeking this love elsewhere. And she doesn't, she doesn't until the very end stop to think, maybe I can give that love to myself rather than find it from an external source that could go away at any point. It's interesting actually, because I've got a few friends who have always wanted to be in relationships and they always get annoyed when they're in relationships and it never seems to work. And they kept on, and it was damaging self-worth, thinking, right, why, why am I— why can't somebody love me? Why am I not able to maintain a relationship? And she's the happiest she's been since she decided she didn't want to be in a relationship. It was messing up her spending time with her friends who she absolutely loved. It was messing with everything she wanted to do. And now she's just putting all her love into herself and doing things that make her happy, and she's a happy seen her in absolutely years. But, you know, we need to explore that and not just do what we think is expected of us, or society has told us is, is going to make us happy. Yeah. And I think, I think what you said about, um, understanding yourself being the best gift you can give to yourself is just really, like, so powerful. I mean, like, it sounds like it's been very healing for your friend to, like, stop and, and have a think and have a pause and kind of reshape where she's pouring all her love. And I think that's the same thing with Brooke. Like, she is stuck in these behaviors where she is, you know, she's seeking this love and seeking this validation. She doesn't know how to be without it because it feels so natural and intrinsic to her. And it's not until she's examining it that she understands why she feels this way, why, what her motivations are. She kind of understands the blueprint that her upbringing and the experiences she's had has, has, how that's, how that blueprint has shaped her and how that's driving her decisions and emotions and what she wants. It's almost like she, if she feels something, she like has to act on it. Whereas when she's able to be a bit older and a bit more reflective and a bit more in therapy and reflecting on, on her life, she's able to feel that feeling of, oh, I'm jealous because Charlie's talking, you know, going out with his friends without me. She might be able to feel the jealousy, but instead of, instead she feels like she can tolerate it and she's just going to sit with it and she's not going to let the feeling dictate her action. She's able to separate the feeling and her behavior, which is something she hasn't been able to do before. And I think that's, that's something that is such a powerful tool in our lives and in our mental health, is to stop reacting, start responding, like choose what we want to do rather than just do the automatic feeling. And it's a case of her— I loved, I loved the role of the therapist. I think I found this quite cathartic chaotic, actually, Can I Stray. I think there were a lot of issues in the book that I'm pretty certain struck a chord with me, but it was the way that things were dealt with. I, I did find it weirdly uplifting. I'm— oh, I'm so pleased to hear that. No, I think it's fantastic. I think it's definitely the kind of book that it needs to be integrated. These kind of fictional stories to get people thinking need to be used in sex education in youths from, you know, 13, 14, and understanding why it's important. There's no point, you know, closing the barn door after the horse has bolted, if you prefer a crude phrase. And so I do hope that this does manage to somehow infiltrate the school system, but the problems that schools have is that every area has to be dealt differently. It's tough because what may work for one particular area in London is going to be absolutely useless at a high school in Scotland or Hull or Leicestershire, you know, it's just, it, things have, there needs to be a little bit more autonomy with teachers actually in how they do things, but it needs to there needs to be an overhaul. I think there are a lot of discussions, aren't there, in the education department at the moment about how, um, sexual education is, is provided to children. Have you, have you been looking into that much? Yeah, I mean, in, in 20— so, um, we work, uh, my, my publishers are actually, um, have sent a copy of the book to the the charity Brook, um, who read it, and, and they, they mentioned it was a— they called it a real calling for why we need— I read that on Twitter, it was fantastic. Great. Yeah, relationships and sex education. And in 2017, I think, this relationships and sex education in schools became statutory. I think it was— I'm not sure if it was mandatory, um, before that. Uh, that didn't get unrolled until like 2021. And even then, I mean, I was just reading in Sophia Smith-Gayler's book that, um, that the number of schools, schools that have had the training to do this is really, really low. Sometimes you've got to pay for the training. Um, it's like a really small percentage of schools that are actually, actually doing this. I mean, in an ideal world, every single teacher would be prepared with these lessons. And I know charities like Brook do the most amazing work. Like, there's, there's so many free resources on Brook's website for young people, but also for teachers. There's lesson planning tools there, um, so there's, there's plenty on there to help deliver these. So even, even, you know, the most clueless teacher who teaches a completely different subject, so it's nothing to do with relationships and sex education, will have the tools to deliver these lessons. Um, I mean, that would be an ideal world because we want every, every young person to be armed with this information, but we also know that there are some schools that are still teaching, some schools that are very religious perhaps, and some of them are still teaching kind of harmful myths about fertility. And I mean, Sophia Smith Gaynor was talking about like, I can't remember what it was, but she had a teacher that passed around something like maybe a flower or like a Malteser or something. Oh, please, no, not like a smashed flower, please. 'Please don't.' Exactly, exactly. 'That's your body, that's your body after it.' It's just really, really harmful, and, and, um, especially for impressionable young people, like, that's what stays with them, and that's something that feeds into how they live their lives and how they view themselves. I think it's important that we don't just focus on the fact that it's down to the education system to provide information to our own children. I mean, yes, there a part that they should be playing in education, but teachers are up against it with constantly being told they've got to do more of this and more of this, and but yet they're not given any more hours, and children are getting harder to deal with, social media is getting worse, and there needs to be a lot of onus on the parents as well. And so they need to be understanding the conversations that they need to be having, not about how to put a condom on a banana, but the, the real life issues that children are facing. And if that's to do with reading more fictional books like Can I Stray? so they can understand the topics and the angles they need to be addressing, or, you know, it's that dreaded conversation that all parents talk about that they have to have with their children But you have to have it. And, you know, it isn't teachers' responsibility to raise our children. Yeah, that's completely true. And I really— it's so refreshing to hear that you have had this conversation with your son who's about to turn 16. Like, there are people who don't have these conversations with their son. They will have the conversations with their daughters and say, if you go to a party, make sure you don't drink too much. Make sure this, make sure that, like, try and keep yourself safe. And people need to be talking to their sons and being like, you need to be thinking about responsibility, you need to be thinking about empathy, you need to be thinking about keeping, you know, making the right decision for yourself and respecting like other people's autonomy. And just because something might feel like a good idea or a good opportunity, like, doesn't necessarily mean you should take advantage of that in that moment. You want to be— so I think it is important for parents to be like arming their kids with with, um, the decision to make the, the information to make the right decisions. And, um, you know, kind of guidance from them. And having a good relationship with your parents on this topic in particular, because this can be such a touchy subject and the last thing a young person wants to talk to their parents about. But, um, being able to go to them is— and, and ask about this or that in a way that you wouldn't be able to go up to a teacher. Um, you know, that's so important. That's so, so important. And I think it can make such a world of difference. Like, if my character Brooke had been able to— had felt able to talk to her mum, like, it was absolutely, you know, I think her mum character in the book was like trying very, very hard to do everything she could for her daughter, but they weren't having these open and honest conversations. And I wonder, I mean, Matt's parents weren't either. Well, I mean, I'm not— I'm not particularly saying I'm doing anything right or wrong, but we know our children more than the teachers do. And unfortunately, we have a very sarcastic household, so I have told my son off recently using Snapchat like some sort of Tinder profile. But, you know, I make him feel comfortable to have— to bring girlfriends home and to— for me to to, to actually meet them. And so there's a bit more of open dialogue. And then, you know, I just say, I would prefer to know if you're in a relationship so that, you know, I can help you when needed. I don't like secrecy. You'll have more freedom if you're not secretive with me. So it's a kind of a win-win situation. Um, and hopefully he will never listen to this program. Luckily, he just, you know, both my children go, well, Mommy's on the radio, it's so boring, I'm not going to listen. We've listen to at home, so I should be confident in that. I just want to quickly remind our listeners as well that they can find out more about you at jennaadamswriter.com. You're on Instagram and Twitter @jennaadamsbooks. And a couple of things that I do like to ask all of my guests on Get Booked are for 3 top tips on good mental well-being practices? Um, yeah, that— isn't that such a great question? Um, so I mean, I was having a think about this and I thought, um, kind of one thing that helped me was treat yourself like you deserve to be treated. And by that I mean, like, it's easy to say like, oh, I deserve a little treat and I'm gonna spend my money on something I'm gonna regret, or, oh, I deserve to rest and therefore I'm not gonna put any bother to put any sheets on the bed. And I know this is something I struggle with when I've struggled with my own mental health issues, kind of similar to how Brooke struggles with her mental health issues. And one thing that really helps is being like, no, I deserve to sleep in a bed with sheets on it. I deserve a meal that's been cooked for me. And for me, that kind of changing the narrative of like, oh, I deserve to indulge in my self-destructive behavior and instead I deserve to take care of myself. That was quite an important distinction for me. Another tip was meditation apps. I am obsessed with meditation apps. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I just— often you can just go on YouTube and type in like 10-minute mindfulness meditation and just take some time out of your day. I know I found it hard because I constantly get distracted and I feel like, oh, it's not helping me at all, I'm never going to be good at this. But I, I don't think there's ever this amazing click moment where you're like, oh my God, suddenly I'm meditating like a, like a boss. You've got to practice. It's called a practice for a reason. Exactly. It's like working out a muscle, it's working out that skill. And if you do work out that skill like a little bit every day, which I am so guilty of not doing, um, then it does help like calm yourself down if you need, if you're having like spiraling thought, or you're able to— it does, it does really help with your, with your day-to-day life. So I'm— I have started getting my youngest child to do that actually, because sometimes it gets a little bit stressed or overloaded, especially with like the muscle spasms they get when they're 12 and they get restless and they just want to be— there's not enough sport in schools, and so they have this buildup of energy and they think they're developing ADHD because every child's seems to have it. And I just like, you've got to start finding ways, find them, find out what's— try and assess what it is that you're struggling with and put it into YouTube and find a meditation or a coping mechanism. And then I think it's fantastic for that. Yeah, absolutely. And it's free. It's like free. It's so easy. YouTube, just type it in. Yeah. And then the last, the last tip I've got is just like the main message of the book, which is just to ask for ask for help when you need it in small ways and big ways. I mean, Brooke asks for help, she gets therapy, and that changes her life. And I'm a big advocate for therapy. I know it's not accessible to everyone. It can be really expensive. But if you are able to find the right therapist for you and you are able to access it, it can change your life. If you can't afford therapy or if therapy is not an option for you, there are self-help resources, there are books, there are apps, there are YouTube. There's things you can get through your library. It's not perfect, but it does— it can make a difference. And I think everyone deserves to be happier. There are some wellbeing services out there. It just— it's unfortunately is area dependent, but there are often— just ask your GP and they'll be able to tell you if there's a free wellbeing service that can offer you a particular course or a course of counseling or therapy. But yeah, as you say, there are so many resources out there, and there are free resources. And you know, it depends on how much money you do have, but you know, where there's a will, there's a way. I think some of the most hardest things in life, when we do them, they're the most fulfilling. Yeah, absolutely. Now, something else I do like to ask for, because we're all on social media and there's so many like hype constantly my kids going, 'I'm seeing the news.' I'm like, 'No, don't look at the news. The news is just depressing and ridiculous and not normally like media panic and completely made up just to get more clicks.' Um, so I like to ask all my guests, is there something, somebody in the public that you admire? Yes. Um, I, I really— I mentioned her already, but I really admire, um, Monroe Bergdorf. She's just iconic. I follow her on all the socials. But yeah, she just, she just is such an advocate for women, for Black women, for queer and trans people, for non-binary people. She's just like, I just think she's so amazing. She does like this amazing work and I'm, I'm just, I'm a little bit obsessed. An English model and activist. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, she's And she has a podcast and, and yeah, she just, she's just a legend. Oh, I love that. I, whenever I ask this question on GetBooked, I'm straight on there and following them because it's nice for us to just find inspiring people out there. We can get consumed with like Love Island and the nitty-gritty of celebrity, and then you come away going, why do my lips not look like that? Why does my hair not look like that in the morning because we don't want to. It's too much time out of our day. It's a lot of time. They have plenty of time on Love Island. They do, and they've got a great big team as well. Do you know what? I've never watched an episode of Love Island in my life. I've got to admit, it is a total guilty pleasure for me. I get really into it every year, even though I don't think it's, you know, I don't think it's necessarily the most admirable show out there, or a good example for a role model, but, but I just, I can't resist it. There's something about it. Oh, don't get me wrong, I mean, I, I can't resist Emmerdale, Coronation Street, EastEnders. I don't know how I fit it into my day, but I do. But it does kind of relax me as well. I love— we all love— we all need our wind down, we all need our guilty pleasures. Yeah, incredibly important. Um, Well, I must say, Jenna, I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting to you, and I could go on forever. And I'm sure you're going to be releasing another book soon, so please do get in touch and come back and join us on the show. Um, thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you, Hazel, and I, I— it means so much to me that you read and enjoyed the book. So thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. I really did. I think it's absolutely fantastic. A quick reminder, you can go and get the book. Just type in Can I Stray by Jenna Adams or pop onto jennaadamswriter.com. Thank you so much for listening to Get Booked today. Thank you, Jenna, for joining me. Thank you for having me. Just a quick reminder that this incredibly captivating coming-of-age story that explores consent, mental health, and the complex world of teenage sexual politics. Can I Stray is available to buy from the 11th of October, both on ebook and in paperback. You can find out more about the author on jennaadamswriter.com, or you can pop on Twitter and Instagram and search up Jenna Adams Books. We have some absolutely incredible shows lined for you over the next couple of weeks and indeed months. Make sure that you don't miss out on what is happening each week by following the Instagram page @getbookedwrs, or you can follow me on Twitter @nuttybutty, and you can also just pop onto my website at hazelbutterfield.com to find out more and to catch up on any of our previous shows, or maybe you just want to have another you can pop on to womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked. It's also on our SoundCloud, or you can pop on to my website and just click on the little icon. Nice and easy. And another quick reminder that if you do have a book coming out, or maybe you've just released your first ever novel and you'd like to come on the show, please do get in touch with me. You can tweet me @NuttyButty or get in touch with me via the station. Thank you so much everybody for listening. I have thoroughly enjoyed doing the show as I always do. Please do get in touch with your comments and suggestions for what you would like to hear on Get Booked in the coming months. I'm your host Hazel Butterfield. Thank you for listening.