Get Booked – Philip Eley, Pull Yourself Together Man 060323

Okay, welcome to another edition of Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station with me, Hazel Butterfield, and Today we're going to be talking about Pull Yourself Together, Man by Philip Ely, emotional health advice for men and those that know them. A little bit of a warning for you regular listeners, um, unfortunately I was at the dentist earlier, my mouth is ridiculously numb, so I might sound a little bit different from usual, but you know, we're gonna struggle on through and I guess to today has been warned, and he's going to take the lead because he has so much to say. This book is written for people who sometimes struggle with difficult emotions, so pretty much most of us. Philip Healy's latest book encourages readers to build a healthier emotional approach to life. He talks about this goal as a project. It's not quick and easy, but it is achievable. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Are you ready for today's interview? Of course you are. Let's do this. Next up on Get Booked, we have Pull Yourself Together, Men by Philip Eley. Publication date, 31st of January of this year, so you can go and get hold of it straight away. And I've worked my way through this book. It was bizarrely, an incredibly easy read. I think this book has a great level combination of advice, humor, reality, honesty, and a genuine desire to help. This is also not a book solely for men. It is for all of us. As the book states, no man or woman solely has traits stipulated for each gender. We're all different. We can all do with understanding more about each other and learning alternative ways of dealing and managing our mental health so we can help our partners, brother, son, and even your neighbor. Honestly, absolutely anyone. Phil, thank you for joining us on Get Booked, and I can't wait to discuss your book. I have so much for us to talk about. Amazing. Well, thank you very much. Thank you. And that was such a great introduction, uh, and I was— yeah, that was really nice, and that was so exactly what I, what I was intending with it. So, uh, really nice to hear the feedback that, you know, you, you saw it like I hoped it to be, to be seen, um, as something that, you know, people can pick up and, and, and find, you know, it's a friendly voice, it's a, it's an honest voice, it's a hopefully a useful voice, but definitely something that people can sort of sit with and enjoy. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it is easily readable. Now, just another quick disclaimer. We've all— I've already mentioned this at the beginning of the show, but just for those people who have tuned in a little bit later, I went to the dentist 3 hours ago and my mouth is still numb. So occasionally I'm dribbling and sucking back in the saliva. But you know, the show's important enough to get the point across about how good this book is. And so people who were tuning in and thinking, oh, she sounds a little bit different, I am different and I blame my dentist. But do you know what, Philip, we can do this, can't we? We absolutely can. I wasn't expecting quite the, I wasn't expecting quite the description of dribbling and sucking in saliva, but we'll go with that. That's an image, you know, that's a You've painted a picture for me there. Thank you. Well, the thing is, I always have a bottle of water to the side, as most podcasters and presenters do, just, you know, wet the whistle. But I can't do that because it would just dribble down the side of my face and possibly cause an electrical fire. So, um, yeah, no, no electrical fires. My, my, um, my low bar for success is if I can get through something without an electrical fire, then I feel that's a success, right? On some level. Totally. That's pretty much my motto. Life. Have you got a little, you know, a little, little frame with it, with it in the frame, and, you know, you sort of decorated it and, um, you know, just, you just put it there as something you can, you can refer back to, you know, as a, as a little, um, little positive message for you to come back to. No electrical fires this afternoon, please. Do you know what, I haven't got it framed, but I will do. I think you've just reminded me that I need to. Instead of that, you know, that cast He's saying, hey, just hang in there. That's a little bit 1980s, isn't it? I digress somewhat. So the book, thoroughly enjoyed it. Do you know what? I had quite a bit of a giggle, weirdly, for a book that is about mental health and a hugely serious issue. I'm glad you had a giggle though, because I mean, I work in schools and It's very, um, it's very easy to, to make everything, you know, serious all the time, but the reality is I just wouldn't connect with the people that I, I was trying to connect with. So I, um, most of my work is in schools with teenagers, and you have to sort of use a bit of humor to, to connect to them at all. But I found even when I started to talk to, to men, um, because I did, I mean, I actually had some brilliant conversations with men. I, I, um, got some groups of men together, some of whom I knew, some of them I didn't, and, and started a conversation around, uh, their mental health and their emotional health. And the reality is that they'd have just walked away if it had been too, um, too serious. It's not that the topic isn't serious, the topic is serious, but it's almost too serious to take seriously the whole time. You need, you need a bit of light and shade, I think. And I think sometimes, um, when people approach this topic, they're so scared of, of the lightness. And the reality is, you know, we're, we're all a bit of a mess, right? You know, all of us are struggling on and And we do in our everyday life, we do use humor as a sort of, you know, defense and, and, and as also as a kind of a way of getting through. So, so why not in a book about it? You know, you've got to use a little bit of lightness and a little bit of humor, um, just to connect really and, and make everybody feel, well, you know, that these things might be hard, but, you know, we can laugh about them as well. Well, do you know what, that, that's the difference though between men and women, isn't it? Because I think men haven't managed to get to that stage as yet. And this is discussed in the book. This is something that I regularly talk about on this show, that, you know, I have this walking group where me and a load of girls, we, we're there with our dogs, we shoot the breeze, we air everything, and then we're ready to go off to work, we're ready to go back to our families. And it's just about sometimes You don't have to be in crisis, but you have to air things, otherwise it just builds and builds and then eventually explodes. One of my friends actually ended up not being freelance and going to a full-time PAYE job, and she said that she was so unwell after the first month because she didn't get that release that she had to ask to come in at 10:30 and work till 6:30 once a week. Yeah, yeah, no, you're right, things, um, more normalized. So with, um, so I have various groups of friends, um, and with my sort of solely male friendships who've kind of come up through hobbies, you know, so I'll have like a running group of friends or I'll have a sort of board gaming group of friends or I'll have, um, you know, sort of acting groups of friends, and I have these friends that I develop, um, through hobbies. And, and when it's a mixed group, um, then there is a little bit more language around feelings and a little bit more checking in with each other. But when it is solely a group for men, it takes sometimes a long time to get to that point. So in some of my sort of solely male friendship groups, um, it's really about just changing the culture and being the brave person to, to try and change some of the ways that we relate, to, to try and sort of ease back on some of the banter and the And I guess the defenses that we've built up around ourselves and, um, and, and also always trying to appear strong. I think, you know, with some men it takes a lot to drop that armor. Um, and, and if you're not doing it regularly, if you're not— if it's not a natural part of the group, the first few times it can seem almost clunky, you know, so it lands awkwardly. Um, but eventually I think the, the culture of the group changes. And one of the things I've been really keen to do with my sort of male friendship groups is, is slowly and gently change some of the cultures to become a bit more open, a bit more light, a bit more, um, but, but also, you know, have a bit more depth, you know, a bit more, um, proper checking in with each other. Um, and I don't think these things come easily, but when they come, they're, they're beautiful. And one of the things I loved about writing this book was having deep conversations with men and really helping them explore their feelings. And oh my gosh, it was, it was a beautiful experience, really. Um, because there was such, you know, such a weight of depth there. Um, and I think as a, you know, almost in society, we just kind of need to— we just need to push on a little bit. Um, you know, it's— everything's ready. I mean, men are ready to talk about their feelings, but they just— they're not quite sure how to grease the wheels, you know. And I think we need to, as a society, just kind of push that little bit towards that. And it really kind of takes a, you know, um, a few people really to, to just allow that and allow people to make mistakes, because, you know, it's not always easy. And, you know, the first couple of times in groups where people start to talk about feelings, you know, people start talking over each other. And almost the, the crazy thing I found was when there was almost a competitive element to talking about feelings, because, you know, men were used to being competitive. So, you know, you'd present a format where they could talk about feelings, and, and almost it begins with them trying to outdo each other, which is obviously not what you want at all. So it just takes a little bit of kind of, um, you know, changing cultures and being a little bit patient. And, uh, but it's all there. I mean, it's beautiful when it happens. It's really powerful. Well, it is about trial and error, but I mean, what I loved is the different stages and the different approaches that you talk about in Pull Yourself Together, Man. And even page 14, that it just said small steps. You don't have to go in gung-ho. You don't have to wake up in the morning and say, right, I have an issue, I have to change my whole life. No, you don't, actually. What you need to do is possibly The next time someone says, are you okay? Instead of going off into a great big spiel, just say, actually, I'm not. But ask me again in a week and I might tell you what it is. You know, very, very small steps. Um, the activities and tools that you give in the book, try one, see how it lands, get it incorporated into your life in, in small grades until it's just part of your life, you know. Definitely. And it's the questions as well. So, you know, obviously if I'm, if I'm in school and I'm doing a one-to-one, I'll start with a different opening question than I am, you know. But the questions that we use in everyday life are important. And, um, you know, sometimes it needs something a little more specific than how are you. I mean, I— a question I use a lot is, you know, tell, tell me about the highlight of your week. And, and then we do that. And then I say, well, you know, have there been any lowlights? You know, what, what's, what's been a difficult thing this week? Or, or, you know, I've got difficult things coming up in the week ahead. So it's, um, they're simple, and the questions, they're open questions, but they're, they're not too open that they're overwhelming, you know. They're, they're kind of opening a door to, to talk about feelings in a way that's a bit more achievable, um, and that's, you know, that I think that's, that's, um, something everyone benefits from. I think there's a lot of, um, reframing going on in this book as well, which I think is so important because people, men and women, they'll go 'Oh, I'm really sad, this is such a problem.' No, it's not. Half the time we actively go out and say, 'I really want a weepy movie, this will sort me right out,' because it's an excuse to cry or to release certain emotions. And if we're actually paying £20 to go to the Odeon, or, you know, just choosing to sit there in front of Netflix, you know, as the cinemas are available, we're wanting to do this. I mean, there was a section actually which really made me giggle. It was— oh my God, page 41. Let me find it. Oh, when you were asking about when certain men in your group had experienced overwhelming emotions, and one of them said, when flying at 30,000 feet with a couple of glasses of red wine, I can find myself getting completely emotional at the most uninspiring and bland movies. I think, right, I watched Bridesmaids next to my children on the way to a holiday in, I think, Caribbean or something like that, and they looked at me and there wasn't a tear trickling down my face. It was Yeah, proper weep. Perfect. I say this, I say this all the— yeah, I love a good weep. I, I'm, I'm a huge crier, and I didn't used to be. I mean, I think it's interesting. I, I mean, I wasn't, um, I wasn't a particularly sensitive, um, you know, man growing up. It's— I mean, now I am, but I've lent into it. I've, I've almost grown into it. Um, I mean, partly through my role, through my job, you know, I've sort of, you know, developed skills and practiced empathy and those kind of things. But people who, you know, knew me as a teenager, they'd hardly recognize me now. I've always opened the doors towards a little more openness, a little more sensitivity. And the reality is now I love a good cry. I, you know, as far as I'm concerned, if I don't see him— if I see a movie and it doesn't make me weep, then I've wasted my money, you know. And I think there's something You know, we're so used to running away from difficult emotions, but they have something for us. I mean, sadness brings comfort, you know, it brings a richness of life. And, you know, sometimes we crave that, you know, and not just in the safety of a movie. I mean, sometimes in, in real life, you know, we love the comfort of, of allowing ourselves to feel sad before, for, you know, a little short period of time. And I know it becomes difficult when it, when it settles and and it goes on for a long time and we have a sustained low mood. But, you know, a little bit of sadness is, is a beautiful thing and it adds a richness to life. Um, and I think that's one of the things I was really trying to encourage men to recognize who maybe have got so used to, um, fearing, um, you know, awkward emotions. And I, I never use the phrase bad emotions because there are no bad emotions, but there are awkward emotions and there are difficult emotions, but But even those emotions, they have a purpose. And I mean, I love melancholy. I know that's an emotion that some people really struggle with, but I love melancholy. Getting out the old photos and reminiscing. But there's a sadness there, but it's a comforting, rich sadness. And I think that's one of the things I was really trying to highlight in the book as well, that we don't have to— we're not aiming for perpetual happiness. The goal of emotional health isn't to be some sort of grinning, happy automaton without, you know, highs and lows. You know, we, you know, the lows are important too. And actually, you know, when, when we get balance, which is what I always aim for, and I talk about that in the book, you know, we're aiming for some, you know, it is a roller coaster ride. We just, we just want it to be, you know, we want to experience the highs and the lows fully. And, um, but then we need to talk about them and explore them and, and just sit comfortably with them rather than keep keep sort of hiding away from them or distracting ourselves. Yeah, I think that we need to appreciate the knowledge that we actually need to feel anger, sadness, all of the range of emotions, but just understand them a little bit more. Can you imagine if something really cruel happened to us and we didn't get angry? It would mean that we were partially dead inside, you know. We need to realize that you don't have to be guilty, you don't have to feel guilty about being angry because, you know, you get angry for stubbing your toe or, you know, when the kids don't clean their bedrooms. You know, there's, there's lots. It's just recognizing it, managing it, and understanding it. And, um, and obviously not all of us have the warning signs like you do when you're going through a particular stage of potential anxiety. I mean, has lots of the summer wine been ruined for you forever? So one of the things I talk about in the book is that I used— I hum, and I, I hum the theme tune for Last of the Summer Wine. And the, the funny thing about it is that I was completely unaware of it. It was completely subconscious to me. And, and it was actually my wife who pointed this out to me one day, and, and she said, I know you're feeling anxious. And I said, well, how do you know I'm feeling anxious? And she said, because you're humming Last of the Summer Wine, and you do that every time. I'm a Huddersfield girl, so I know home turf really well, and that was a huge loss of the Sunderland fans. Amazing, amazing. I, um, it's funny because I hardly ever used to watch it. I don't know where this thing settled into. I mean, brains are brilliant. I mean, honestly, like, but this is, this is one of the beautiful things about this field. And I work in well-being. I mean, I work as an emotional health specialist in schools, and I mean, I read and I've, um, you know, done training in it, but the reality is, you know, loads of things we still don't understand at all. And new theories come out all the time. And, you know, we're very much on the sort of still in the dark, really, when it comes to our brains and what goes on and why. But yeah, how this thing— how the theme tune for Last of the Summer Wine, a program I hardly remember watching, settled into my psyche as my comfort song. And that's what it was without me even naming it that way. You know, something about it brought comfort because if I would hum it, And obviously it was settling me, it was making me feel comfortable. And I think, you know, that's one of the things I really talk about again in the book is find your comforters, you know, find your calming strategies, whether they be people, places, or pastimes, and name them. And I think once you name things, so the beauty about Lost the Summer Wine is now, because I've named it, well, I'm consciously aware of it. So it's a strategy I can use it. So you asked me if I hated it now. No, I don't. I mean, it's a gentle way of, bringing a little bit of comfort and calm when I need it. And everybody needs those things, you know, and they find them in all the oddest places. I mean, I talk about running in the book. I mean, if I'd have been, you know, a different person, I'd have talked about something else. But it just so happened that was another thing that almost I found by accident. And, you know, I thought I would never like running, but it calms me. You know, it's good for me. It makes me, you know, sort of my troubles sort of, um, they become something I can, I can cope with. Um, and I've got loads of these things now because I've named them, then I prioritize them. So, um, you know, I'm more of a mess than anyone. I'm, I need all sorts of strategies, you know what I mean? It's not, it's not that I'm writing a book because I think I've, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm fixed. It's because I've, you know, I've got so— I need so much help that I've just got more strategies than most people. But, but because I've named them, they— then I can prioritize them. So I I can explain to people, oh no, sorry, I can't do that because I, I actually need to prioritize, you know, going for a run, otherwise the next thing won't happen. And I think one of the things I'm really encouraging anyone to do through the book is, is to just find the things that will calm you, um, and, and then name them and prioritize them. I think the key is, is to understanding ourselves, but unfortunately we're conscious of something like 5% of our actions, you know, everybody is. But the more we can understand ourselves or just explore enough of ourselves to understand what brings us back around, whether it's comedy or live jazz or reading a book or, you know, as you said, going for a run. I mean, I think I'm like you. I hate running, but I do it because I know it's good for me. Yeah. Yeah. And I know I get the headspace and I get, you know, I get to have a little bit of time out and sometimes switch the music off and just bash those ideas out. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I took— I mean, I, I kind of— I use the phrase in the book recovery pursuits because I think that recovering your well-being is, is one of the things in the book. I talk about it as a project. I, I say that, you know, it's, um, it's not a simple thing. There's, you know, there's no magic wands. I mean, I've been doing this, you know, I've been in this world for long enough to recognize that, you know, when people are still expecting an easy fix, then that much further away from finding any solutions. I think the starting point has to be saying, well-being is quite a difficult goal because there's so many struggles around and so many difficult things that well-being is quite a big project to work on, and your own well-being particularly, because you can't get into your own head. You can't easily self-reflect and examine. It's not an easy task. So it is a project. And one of the things I talk about is, you know, the— what I call recovery pursuits, because you're trying to recover your well-being, you know. So when your well-being gets out of kilter and, you know, you, you find yourself unbalanced, you know, with whatever that is— stress, anxiety, anger, whichever difficult emotion you, you know, is putting you out of kilter— it's just recovering back to your, your well-being, your point of balance, and finding the things that you can use to do that. And there'll be more than one. I mean, you know, sometimes running is completely the wrong thing for me, you know, because what the difficult emotion I'm struggling with is. Other times I'll, you know, I'll do something else. I'll pop up the allotment, or I'll, you know, walk by the sea, or I'll, um, paint a tiny little pebble, you know, with a very complicated and small picture, because, you know, it's focused and it gets me into the flow. And, and there's all different ways of doing this, but it's knowing what they are and naming them. Now there's another element I want to talk about, and obviously it's very male-focused. Uh, you've come up with a concept called the NUTS. Yes. So, yeah, I mean, I was happy. I was happy with that. Yeah, well done you. I mean, if you're gonna, if you're gonna try and come up with an acronym then, uh, in a book on men's mental health, and you know, you managed to, uh, you managed to come up with something that's quite so— yeah, quite so— I was pleased. I don't know why I was pleased with that. Was it quick? Was it one of those ones where you just went, baf, baf, baf, oh my God, that works? Or did you sit there for ages with a bottle of wine going? So I already had NUTS, which I was already using. So at the moment in the book, the acronym is The NUTS. So check the nuts, you know, or, um, so the, the part was new for the book, but I was already using nuts in schools actually. Um, uh, so I'll go through the whole of it. So the nuts, the whole phrase. So the T is treating difficult emotions as alarm bells. And so I, I unpack this in the book, and, uh, but effectively what you're doing is you're not trying to run from, from difficult emotions, you're trying to recognize what doing, and what they're— that they are effectively a warning. You know, you are, you know, you're out of kilter, you're out of balance. So the T of the NUTS is treating difficult emotions as alarm bells. And then the H is healthy life balance, which isn't just about work-life balance. There's so much to a balanced life. Um, and I think again, it's, you know, it's quite a— it's quite a difficult idea to get our head around because A lot of us think we just need more free time. But one of the big revelations to me of, you know, I was furloughed in lockdown and it wasn't great for me. I was one of the many people who actually found that having purpose taken away from me was quite a blow. You know, I found that really difficult. And it's quite difficult to talk about that because then there's a load of people who, you know, would be really jealous because, you know, they had to work really hard during lockdown. I'm only talking from my point of view and from my point of view, emotionally, I, I found having purpose taken away from me was a, was really difficult. So I think there's the H being healthy life balance is a, is a lot more complicated than we think it is. It's not just bringing in more free time, it is more to it than that. And again, I sort of unpack that a bit in the book. Um, the E is ending unhealthy habits, and we so often have built up these strategies that actually when we look at them they're not healthy for us. They— we've used them because they've, you know, they've, they've, they've just about protected us in the past, or, you know, they've, they've, um, they've brought comfort where it was desperately needed. But, but then we sort of lean into them as a long-term strategy, and, and often they're not the best. So we have to sort of— we have to be gentle with ourselves, but sometimes we do have to work on ending some of the unhealthy habits we've built up. Then we get on to the nuts part, N is notice— noticing feelings. And I think particularly with men who often don't have a language around emotions, they don't often have— because in male friendship groups, they don't name that many emotions. And actually, one of the things that I found really interesting, one person I spoke to in the book— and I do sort of quote them— described how any strong emotion they felt was mislabeled as anger by people around them.. And so their first thing to do would be to name their own emotions and notice them. And then maybe they'll be more able to sort of communicate to other people, you know, this isn't anger, this is something else. So noticing feelings is the N. The U is using safe places. And when it— and that really, that comes back to the things that we were just talking about, really, the running and the you know, the Last of the Summer Wine theme and the painting small pebbles. And those safe places are places that calm you and help you sort of bring yourself back to a place of balance. The T, once you are calm, is allow yourself to think about why you're feeling that way. So the T is think about why you're feeling that way, self-reflect, learn habits of understanding your emotional world a little more. And then the last, the S, is speaking about feelings. And speaking about feelings is, is, is, again, sometimes you need culture changes. You know, you need to be the person who's brave in your friendship group to make it a bit more normalized to speak about feelings. So the whole phrase is the NUTS, um, and each, and each one of those has a, has a little job to do as a, as part of the project of helping people understand their emotional health. Yeah, and to think introspectively. Now, I think it's brilliant. Um, I think it's the NUTS. Oh, bless you. That's right. That's it. Um, but yeah, no, I think it's fantastic. Um, I really enjoyed it. And to be fair, I deal a lot with mental health, and generally I think I'm somebody that people come to for advice if they're wanting to try and help somebody who they think is struggling. Um, I generally think I've got a reasonably good knowledge, but I was reading the book and it pointed out certain things that I do do wrong. And I think it comes from a good place, but it's something that all of us quite often do. And it's the whole, you know, being guilty of offering advice rather than just listening, because sometimes we just vehemently want to show people that we just want to help them, and that's through offering advice, when sometimes people just want you to listen. No, absolutely. And it is— I don't think it's wrong. I think it— what it is, is it can be a barrier to empathy. And empathy is such a big part of this. So the example I give in the book is if my teenage daughter, you know, explains that, you know, she's having trouble with friendship groups at school and I say, oh, could you blah blah blah, could you speak to a teacher? And then she'll sort of throw down her books and say, oh, you don't understand. And the reality is What she's communicating is that I haven't understood the whole picture, but I've tried to give a simple solution. So it's almost like I've belittled the thing that she's going through by, you know, she's only talked to about it for me for 2 or 3 minutes, and somehow I think I've, you know, understood it well enough to be able to package it up and say, oh, it's tiny, it's fixable. And that makes her feel rubbish, right? Because I've said, oh, could you? And so there's great intention behind advice, but sometimes it can make a person feel like you're shrinking their troubles down. Whereas something that's smart, for example, saying, "Gosh, that does sound difficult," you know, that simple phrase like that helps the person feel validated and feel that, "Oh gosh, maybe I'm okay to feel like this. Maybe anyone would feel like that in this situation." And then they're able to sort of explore a little bit more. And usually by that sort of process, they eventually kind of find their own strategies and advice. But I think there is a place for advice. It's not that it's never needed. It's just that it closes the doors often to other things. I think certainly at the beginning, just empathize, just listen. If and when they get to a point of needing advice, they'll probably ask for it, is what I've found in the end. But again, it's just, you know, it's just being comfortable with people and being comfortable with difficult emotions when other people express them. And again, that just takes a bit of practice and a little bit of, you know, being healthy, you know, with your own emotional health and using the same sort of strategies with yourself as well. Well, I think there's no harm in when somebody starts opening up to you about a problem they're having in just saying, How would you like me to help you? You know, do you want me to listen? Do you want me to offer advice? Do you want me to just cook you a meal? Do you want me to go out and force you to do more exercise? Ask the person what they want from, from you in this situation because they might not even know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, again, the, it's almost like the, the longer, so when I'm, when I'm, um, helping people in schools, um, I think of it as opening doors, and I keep opening doors. You know, the longer they can keep walking into their own, um, thoughts and feelings, you know, the, the better of a job I'm doing. So all, all I'm doing is thinking, what will open the next door? And as you say, that would open a door, right? Because, because you're opening a door for them to, to self-reflect, right? Um, whereas sometimes advice closes a door because you've basically said this will fix it. So you, so I always think of it as how many, how can I keep opening these doors, you know, how can I create the place that they feel that they can, they can open the doors to themselves, you know. So absolutely, yeah. I think what I have done in the past is sometimes I have immediately just gone off on one saying, oh my God, when this happened to me, I found this, this, this, and this helped. And then I've gone back to them like the next day and said, you know what, 'Yes, we're having a glass of wine.' I think it got a bit too over-animated. And, you know, what may work for me might not work for you, but I hope it didn't come across as pushy. And even if you just kind of backtrack a little bit, or, you know, if you sometimes feel like you haven't responded in the way— people just want you to be genuine sometimes. We all make mistakes. Yeah. Oh, absolutely true. And, you know, it doesn't matter how, you know, how trained you are or not trained, you know, we don't know. We can't get into other people's heads. But there are one or two things that often, you know, more helpful. Um, but yeah, absolutely, genuineness, openness, you know, just kindness, recognizing how hard it is for people to talk about these things because they can't— they can't easily find the words for difficult feelings. And I find that particularly with men, which, you know, when I wrote the book, I was genuinely kind of almost imagining like a conversation with some of the more closed-off men that I knew, and, and how do I help them open up a little bit. So the more we can make it comfortable, then the easier it is for people to sort of find that way into their own head. But, you know, of course we're going to make mistakes, but it's better to, you know, help people along a little bit. But as I say, some of that is about changing cultures and just saying, you know, let's walk, you know. And often, you know, that's another thing, you know, a kind of bonding activity. You know, you mentioned drinking wine or, you know, walking or, you know, shared activities, you know, that kind of just, you know, make things as, as, um, as gentle and calm as they can be, and then it's easier for people to find the words. I know at least 3 people at work who will need this book, and they're women, and a couple of them need it just because they have a different way on working towards their own well-being, and some because they're really petrified about the mental health of some of the men in their life, and they don't know how to approach it without making it worse. Yeah, good. No, that's, that's really nice to hear. And I have— I mean, I've had some good feedback, really good feedback. And some of it is from, you know, from women who've said, well, actually, you know, either I need this for somebody else, or— but, but a lot have said, you know, this is exactly the language that I needed. And I did sort of set out to write a book that wasn't for somebody who normally would read a, I guess, a self-help or a well-being book. So— but many of those people are, are women who who have, you know, built up these different strategies that may or may not work. But, but yeah, lots of women have come back to me and said, well, that's me. So you must be absolutely thrilled by the responses you're getting from both men and women regarding your fantastic book. I really am. I, I— it's not the first book I've read, but it's almost the first book I've ever really had feedback on. And so I've kind of got used to writing into a void, you know, and almost feeling like, you know, I was throwing stuff out there. But this one It's been a delight, you know, to get feedback. It kind of makes— well, it turns, you know, makes everything worthwhile really. And, um, yeah, as I say, I'm— it's not something I'm used to. And so the sort of first couple of times I was amazed that anyone had actually read it, you know. Um, and, um, but yeah, absolutely, no, it does seem to have, um, helped people, which is just delightful, amazing. I, you know, can hardly put that into words, you know. It's really good. Well, just a reminder to all of our listeners to search up Pull Yourself Together, Man by Philip Beale. You can go and check it out on Amazon, and there is a review going up on my website at hazelbutterfield.com. There'll be a little link on there to make it super easy for anyone to go and buy it. But also, where else can people find out more about yourself? Um, well, so, gosh, I'm so bad at social media. I'm not— I mean, you're expecting me to have some So I do have a sort of Facebook writers page, but I'm not the world's best at social media. I've got to be honest. I've got Twitter accounts, so @philippelee1. But I mean, literally, they'll go on there and they'll see that I've got like, you know, one like in the last year kind of thing. And I'm sort of— I mean, this is back to the sort of thing of me, you know, I'm so used to shouting into a void that, you know, I'm almost embarrassed of my social media. It's just not there. Um, but I am trying to sort of get on top of that. So there is, um, I've got a Facebook writers page. Um, so yeah, so if you— I mean, I guess if you were to— I don't know how people do these things, but I'm— it's always in my name, so Philip Eley, with Eley being E-L-E-Y. I have got various bits of social media out there. I'm just— it's just trying to, um, get on top of them. And, um, I've got— I've got, uh— I am trying to sort of build a web page and stuff as well. So as I say, I kind of, um you know, I, I kind of, um, I wasn't really expecting to be, to be, um, you know, to have done something that, that was connected. I mean, I guess I was expecting it to connect with people, but, um, but I wasn't, you know, I'm not social media savvy at the moment, but I will be. I'll get there. It can be a bit of an intense void. I mean, Twitter is good for the writing community, especially because you can put links on there and you know, share opinions. And the writing community opinions on Twitter are nothing like the other Twitter opinions, so they're all quite supportive and lovely. Oh, that makes me feel good. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make it happen. I am. So I am on there. I think it's @philippine1. I think I am. So I've certainly got 267 followers. There you go. Oh, okay. Which is actually sounds quite good, but I think a lot of that because I paint as well. So, um, I think the other thing is, um, so a lot of my stuff on there will be, will be painting, and everyone will go, oh, this can't be the same person. But, um, but it is. That's the other thing I do is I, I paint as well. So, uh, but I need to lean into the writing now. Yeah, yeah, let, let people hear more about your knowledge and share. Pull yourself together, man. Um, do you know what, we're running out of time, but I've got a couple of questions I want to ask you before we come to the end of the interview. The first one is, and I think Um, you're gonna have some cracking answers for this. Uh, just 3 easy tips on how to achieve a good level of mental well-being. Okay, yeah, so, so the first is, is to, to, to not— to know what you're aiming for. And, and generally what you're aiming for is, is some level of, of balance. Um, I think if you're looking for wellbeing and you think wellbeing is, you know, a perfect life and/or, you know, perpetual happiness, I think that's a very difficult place to start from. So it's really just thinking, well, what does mental wellbeing look like for me? Where, you know, where are the bits where I just need a little bit more balance? So it's kind of making it a little bit more manageable, really. And, uh, and then just knowing what your thing is, um, is, is the second tip. So, and, and, and it's not always obvious. I think sometimes you've got to try a few things out, but everybody I've ever helped, um, eventually finds their thing. And it's really lovely finding your thing, you know. And there might be more than one thing, but, but find your thing. Um, there will be something that that is better than anything else for making you feel relaxed, calm, and just getting you into that flow, um, where, uh, where everything else, um, just seems to drift away and, and you find yourself back in your own, in your own comfortable skin. So that's the second one. And the third one is be brave. Change the culture of your friendship groups. You know, if you If you have a friendship group that doesn't do talking about feelings, well, you will find a way to, to do that. And if you already have a friendship group that talks about feelings, just, you know, find things that, you know, even better questions and, and even better ways of helping people explore their feelings, because, you know, we're so in need of this. Um, so yeah, so friendship groups without conversations about feelings, just start. Be brave, be the one. Just, uh, you know, ask good questions. Um, We're not set in stone, are we? We, you know, we can try something new whenever we want. If it doesn't work, at least you tried. Absolutely, absolutely. And sometimes I stumble across— I mean, I, I love a good question. I love a, um, you know, a silly question. I love a sort of open question. But, um, but sometimes I find a question and I, and I try it and it's so much more than I thought it was gonna be, you know. And then I get really excited and, you know, I sort I, I just use that question on everybody for, for a little while, and then I sort of find another question. But, you know, it doesn't have to be, how are you feeling? You know, those— that doesn't have to be the question. Or, you know, or how are you today? Or those, those don't have to be the questions. You know, there are so many good ways of, of inviting people to, to self-reflect or, or to open up or to talk about their feelings. Um, and just, yeah, just try, try new questions, I guess, is my Tip number 3. I love that. I think they're really helpful. Thank you. Um, and final question is for somebody you admire in the public eye, which might be a stretch, I understand. Oh gosh, there's so many. I, I have so many sort of heroes and people I look up to. Uh, I, you know what, like, I love any— I love all the artists and the poets and people who grab, you know, richness out of life. I always admire people who, who live a full, you know, kind of have a rich experience. So, you know, people like Frida Kahlo, who, who would be somebody who, you know, there's tragedy there because, you know, she wanted more, you know, and anyone really I admire in public life is somebody who is aiming for the stars. And, you know, yeah, recognizing that life is about highs and lows and experiencing both, you know, in the sort of fullness of themselves. So there's— so it tends to be people like that that I really admire. So I'm always, you know, and often writers as well are people like that as well, who kind of want life to be a little fuller and a little richer and a little more, a little more something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a little. I mean, I left it hanging as in, as in a little more, you know, just more, more I love everything. So yeah, nothing ventured, nothing gained. And people who just kind of, you know, understand— I mean, as in the book as well, fail is first attempt in learning, you know. You've got, you've got to sometimes, as you say, yeah, take the ups and the downs. I love that. And thank you so much, um, I've really enjoyed chatting to you. And thank you so much for your patience with my completely, um, swollen mouth from the dentist. You know what, I'd forgot— well, I'd forgotten, so it can't have been as bad as you think it is because I quickly forgot that you, you, you were sort of, you know, speaking with a swollen mouth. So it can't be quite nearly as bad as you thought it was. Um, but thank you, it was a— that was a— it was a— it was a lovely interview. It was really nice to, you know, talk about, you know, real things and, and, and really kind of have a chance to, um, yeah, just, just talk about life together. It was good. Thank you. Yeah, I absolutely loved it. Thank you so much for joining us on Get Booked. Thank you. Oh my goodness, today's guest. Could you tell that I just wanted to keep him on forever? I had so much fun today, and we are incredibly lucky that today's guest, Philip Eley, with Pull Yourself Together, Man, has done a little bit of a personal reading of his book, a little bit of try before you buy, which is what we do here on Get Booked. And you were very welcome. I hope you enjoy this. I'm going to be reading, um, a few sections from my book called Pull Yourself Together, Man, which I wrote as, um, a way of helping men to see their well-being and their emotional health as a project. And the way I kind of lay it out is, um, in different sections where I asked men to, to think about how they would approach a project and what they would do. So this is quite an early section called The Man Drawing the Brain, and what I'm really trying to do here is encourage men to, to recognize that the project is difficult but achievable. So this is Philip Ealey reading from Pull Yourself Together, Man, and this section is called The Man Drawing the Brain. I've got a mandrel drawer in my house. Drives people mad. All the random things which will be useful one day or were useful once get shoved in there. There they sit, all higgledy-piggledy, until one day I need something which I know must be in there somewhere. But inevitably I can't find it, so after a frustrating hour of digging around among old batteries and dried-up glue, I give up and buy a new one. A mandrel drawer should be useful Yeah, it just isn't. We know this, but we still have one. That's how we're made. I asked some men to list some items in their man drawers in their house, and I got a sad and sorry list of dead batteries and charging leads for lost phones and foreign coins and dead phones and instructions for old appliances and takeaway menus that are no longer used and fuses and wire and golf balls even from people who didn't play golf and car keys for cars they sold years ago. And the truth is that none of these things are useful anymore, but the drawer is still there taking up prime space in our house, often in the kitchen, somewhere we use every day. But just there it is, taking up all the clutter. And if you want something, the clutter makes it hard to find it away. So why am I talking about man drawers? Well, I hate to tell you this, worse than that is the man drawer in your own brain. At some point, almost every male that's ever lived learns to shove difficult emotions unwanted feelings into a closed drawer in the brain. There they sit, gathering dust but never really going anywhere. Sadly though, they do impact your life. Our brains and bodies are not two separate things. They're completely connected, and what is shoved away in the drawer in your brain will spill into your body and affect you. Or worse still, one day the drawer gets too full, the bottom falls out, and these things spill out into your life. This is like the mandrill in your house. When it gets too full, it becomes impossible, just gets wedged shut. And the reality is, one day you have to roll up your sleeves and tackle it head-on. That's exactly what Pull Yourself Together Man is about. It sees your well-being and your emotional health as a long-term project, difficult but achievable. There is a myth of Neanderthal Man. The idea of man as an emotional Neanderthal with a narrow emotional range is a persistent one. People perpetuate this myth in various ways. When do we see media representations of men with wide-ranging, complicated emotional worlds? When do we ever read about them or even talk about them? I once heard a neighbor describe her husband to my wife as, "He's a typical male, he doesn't do feelings." Everything about this description upsets me, from the word "typical" through to the fact that he does do feelings, but she's not recognizing them. The myth of the emotional Neanderthal is everywhere in our society, and the trouble is that it really is damaging. Listen to these words from a married man in his 40s when I asked him what he wanted people to understand about his emotional health: I wish people would see me as a fully functioning human being. I might not express emotions the same as them, but that doesn't mean that I don't have them. The other day I was struggling with anxiety when I was out with my family. I guess I'd got a bit quiet and withdrawn, but I was thinking about some things. When my eldest daughter asked my wife what was up, she said, "Oh, Dad's just angry." I tried to explain that I wasn't angry because I hadn't been, but the more I protested, the angrier I sounded. And then the word "just" started bugging me, and I probably did become angry. I was frustrated because all my complicated feelings had been dismissed with just one word. I don't really want my girls growing up and doing the same thing when they're older. This kind of thing happens all the time and all of us seem powerless to stop it. The words from this man are quite upsetting, I think. He can express his feelings, he can recognize them, he knows he's feeling anxious, but then he's feeling boxed in when other people don't see that. If people were less quick to pigeonhole his feelings, he'd have more freedom to express them. We need to have a culture shift in how we talk about men and feelings. It's not okay to keep perpetuating the myth of the Neanderthal. People sometimes talk about how their father's generation struggled to express feelings, but there were many reasons for this. I asked some other men, "What do you want people to understand about your emotional health?" One answers, "Tough question. I don't think I've ever really thought this through. Perhaps that I'm not as together as they think I am. To be kind." And let me know if I've offended them. Another man answers, that I don't always understand it, but that I'd welcome questions. I think questions help us make sense of things. So people can always just ask. These responses talk about what other people think and how it impacts them. It seems time to move past the myth of the emotional Neanderthal. Change doesn't primarily need to come about in how men express their feelings. It needs to come about how other people hear them. Feelings do get expressed. They can be loud or subtle, but they come out somewhere. When men express feelings in different ways than people expect, then society needs to become better at hearing this. Another section I talk about where I really kind of dig into some strategies that people could use, because once I've kind of laid out the, the project I give some very practical advice and tips, um, on how to actually tackle this project. So this is a bit further on in the book, and this is called Warning Lights. I find that a helpful way to understand and deal with difficult emotions is to consider them as warning lights. Imagine you're driving alone along a quiet road at night and you didn't bring your phone. All of a sudden, you see a warning light on your car.. It's not one you recognize, and you haven't got the manual to check. So I ask in the book for people to be honest, and I say, what would you do? And I give 5 different options. The first is A, get angry. The second is B, anxiously try and ignore it. C is panic and stop immediately. D is pull over in a safe place and try and fix it. And E is pull over in a safe place and try to find a way to get help. And what I do is I, I run through some of these, talking about difficult emotions as warning lights. Difficult emotions are like warning lights on your car. They don't feel good, but they have a job to do. And some responses to these warning lights and these feelings are better and more helpful than others. Getting angry is hardly ever going to help in these circumstances. There are times in life when anger is really helpful. It can give us adrenaline to quickly solve issues and unfairness. But that doesn't apply here. The anger will only make us feel less able to cope with the situation. If we're already struggling with difficult emotions, then anger will just add more problems. What about anxiously ignoring it? Well, the reality is this is the approach I would have taken and did take for a long time in my life. When I had difficult emotions, I would just anxiously try and avoid them. They'd kind of be there, they'd be buzzing around my head, but I'd just be getting more and more anxious about them. But think about the warning light in the car. That wouldn't be a helpful choice. We'd be focusing all our attention on a problem we're already aware of, but we wouldn't actually be doing anything to solve it. This happens a lot in life. People try to get rid of anxiety or distract themselves on it— from it, rather than considering what is it alerting them to. Why is it there? How is it a warning light? What is it warning about? What about C, stopping immediately? Well, yeah, absolutely, this is a better choice. At least you'd have stopped and the problems won't get worse. The difficulty here is that panic can be quite debilitating. It can make it difficult knowing what to do next. It's really common for people to panic at the first sign of emotional overload. People fear difficult emotions rather than listening to them. This fear can make them unable to deal with what life is throwing at them. D was pulling over and trying to fix it, which is actually a really good option. You may or may not be able to fix it, but it's worth having a look. At the first signs of difficult emotions, just pull over, find a space for peace and quiet, and wait till you're feeling a bit calmer before having a think about why you're feeling that way. You may not know, but it's not done any harm to have a think, and at least you've pulled over to a safe place. Then we have the option of pulling over to a safe place and trying to get help. And this is good, this is very good, this is a very good choice. And actually, this is the best option in the car. If you don't recognize the warning light, you're probably not going to be able to fix things yourself, so you will seek out help at the first opportunity. Think of your emotional world like this: at the first sign of difficult emotions, pull over and seek help. As soon as you're able to, find a place of activity which calms you. And wait till you feel calmer. Then find someone to talk to, a friend or family member, or even a stranger. Talking always helps. In the car analogy, the first good decision is to pull over to a safe place. As you don't recognize the warning light, it would be foolish to keep going. You don't have a phone or manual to work out what's going on. If you have a good understanding of engines, you might be able to work out what's going on by lifting the bonnet, but if not, then you will need some help and support. Sometimes just by having someone to discuss the issue with, we find it easier to make sense of it. Here we have an analogy of warning lights in a car. This approach is a key to coping with difficult emotions. The world can be confusing and overwhelming. It can be stressful and tiring. It can be upsetting and infuriating. Sometimes it can be all these things at once. When difficult emotions come, we don't always know what's going on and why. We're not at our best to cope with things. We have a huge warning light flashing in our mind telling us to stop. Just stop. It can be hard to build habits like this into our life. It can feel easier to keep crashing through life with the habits we've already developed, but in the end, that's not a great long-term strategy. As soon as it's safe or possible, just stop. Find a place or activity which calms you and let it calm you. Then talk to someone. As you become used to seeing difficult emotions as warning signs The healthy responses we develop of taking time to stop, of doing calming activities, of opening up to others, or self-reflecting on what's going on and why become healthier habits for us. And this is what Pull Yourself Together, Man is all about, building healthy habits into your life. Wow, that was today's guest Philip Ely talking about Pull Yourself Together, Man. Just a quick reminder for all you new listeners that I am Hazel Butterfield, a huge book fan, so I absolutely love doing this show. Get Booked is all about talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different guest each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. You can join us at any time, get involved, and catch up on previous shows at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on our SoundCloud. Alternatively, you can pop on to hazelbutterfield.com to find out a little bit more about me and my latest book reviews.