Get Booked – Lianna Champ, How To Grieve Like A Champ

Are you feeling anxious? Online Therapy 24/7 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 0207 553 5080 and check out our website: onlinetherapy247.com. Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield, and this is Get Booked. Welcome to the first show of 2021. And for those of you that aren't regular listeners, this show talks about books, books, and more books. We love talking to authors about their new releases and the process of writing, going into detail about the topics covered, the mental health and wellbeing elements, publishing and writing tips, and giving you the extra special insight into a different book each week. On today's show, I will be welcoming the author of How to Grieve Like a Champ, Leanna Champ. This is a beautiful and intricately written book for anyone who's lost somebody, has tried to support someone through a loss, or will lose somebody. So that's pretty much everybody. How to Grieve Like a Champ is so obviously written by someone whose calling it was to support people in times of bereavement and help people through the grieving minefield. Leanne's dedicated work as a funeral director, a role she knew was for her since her teens, and from her experience of such has also become a grief counsellor, aims to help people to live, not just survive, following a loss. Leanne, hello, thank you for joining me. Hazel, good morning and thank you for inviting me. It's lovely to be here. Well, you're very welcome. Now, it's really bizarre to say this, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading your book. I'm glad to hear it. When I've had feedback from people who read it, they've told me that it's so easy to read, it's in really manageable little chunks, and whatever page they open it at, they can just take something from it. So that's very good to hear. And also, what I found, I mean, it's one of those books that you kind of expect to see. Have you ever heard of like books in the toilet where people can kind of pick up and click through while they're on there and then kind of come back in. I feel really weird referring to a book as toilet read, but I kind of love those books because it looks pretty and it's small and it is bite-sized chunks. It's so manageable. It is, and we still grieve when they go to the bathroom. Well, yes, we do, and sometimes it's the only place we actually get to have a little bit of privacy unless we've got toddlers or dogs. Absolutely. And it's, um, and I found that it doesn't just apply to people who have had a bereavement. I think it still applies to— it's giving you processes for when you've lost something, whether that's time or you've lost something. Say during COVID we feel like we're missing out on so much. Some of us have lost friends due to falling out or just going down a different path, or sometimes life just gets in the way. And It's the same process for grieving the loss of something and not just someone, don't you agree? Well, absolutely, because what we've got to remember is very often people think that grief is what we experience when we follow the loss of someone through death, but grief is actually what we experience when we lose anything familiar in our lives. So any kind of change in our patterns of behavior and any experience we lose the resulting emotion is grief, and it is universal, whatever losses we experience. And we can experience over 40 loss events in our lives, and it can be moving home, loss of health, and loss of security, and loss of safety, especially around this time of pandemic, you know, that security and safety element we've lost. We've lost, um, our future as we perhaps planned and thought we knew. So we're all experiencing grief on very, very many levels, um, currently at this time. What I also— it struck me like a complete thunderbolt. I, um, about 3 years ago I lost a few very close friends due to, um, a breakup. And basically sometimes things can get messy, and I lost some very close friends, and I thought I was— I was incredibly angry about what happened. And then I suddenly realized, reading this book, it wasn't anger I was feeling, it was grief. Absolutely. And it's probably quite a shock for you to find that out, because the anger element— anger is, isn't— I tend to find it isn't an emotion in its own right. It tends to come from fear or sadness or fear of being hurt. So when you lost your friends through this breakup, You know, you're frightened because you've lost that familiarity, you know, that friendship, that double friendship that those two people brought to you. And so, that frustration that you can't control it and you don't want it to happen because there was nothing wrong with you in the relationship. So, it's kind of that losing that element of control as well, which the— it can feel like anger, but I think a lot of it's frustration. But it's the sadness at that loss of friendship in your life as well. As well as seeing your friends go through the breakup? Yeah, I mean, it was, it was quite an emotional journey actually reading the different— because the way that you section off this book, it flowed beautifully, it really did. I mean, there's a lot of people that I've been recommending this book to, but keeping in mind that where it's quite an emotional time what we're going through at the moment, more than, more than usual. And as I read this book, I realized I'd never grieved the death of my father. Now I need to make sure that I don't completely lose it in this interview, but it's, it's your book that made me realize that I never actually gave it time because he died at the same time that I was going through a divorce and I had to keep things together for my children. I suddenly went, this is why I can't look at any pictures of him, because I haven't processed it. Oh my gosh, I mean, that's— but that's a wonderful learning for you, Hazel. It empowered me, made me think, wow, I'm not completely devoid of functioning, I just haven't gone through the process. Yeah, so you've kind of avoided it in an attempt to try and be strong, particularly for your children. You— what you've done is you've kind of shelved everything and buried it within, and then you tend to like what I would call skate above it. And then completely and you never really go back to it. But of course now, you know, especially I think in this time of pandemic as well, it's brought up a lot of losses that we haven't perhaps grieved fully for, and you will now give the respect to that relationship with your dad and hopefully get to that stage where you can enjoy looking at photographs of him and enjoy those memories that you have. Well, in the process of reading this book, I will tell you that last week me and my children were sorting things to put up into the attic attic, and I came across some pictures that I hadn't put out, and I now have a picture of my dad and my brother and my two children and nephew sitting up in my living room. So I think that's a step forward. I love that. I love that, because we've got to remember as well, everybody we love becomes part of us, and even though they may be gone physically, our emotional relationship with them continues till the day we die, and we still have that relationship. Now, my mum passed away in 2011, very difficult time for me, of course. But now I have the most wonderful conversations with my mum, in my head, but, you know, I feel her presence, I feel her answering questions. I mean, it may be me doing the answering, but, you know, I'm very much a part of mum, and mum's very much still a part of me, and, you know, I make that okay. I did notice that, yeah, when you talked about the relationship you now have with the memory of your mother, the processes you have are very positive-focused, where you draw on people to look at what you what they got from that relationship and, and to follow that through so that their memory can still live through by, you know, if there's something that your mother always used to tell you, you can tell the same thing to your children and that kind of can, can pass through and keeps their memory alive. And it's such a nice and positive involving stance to take. And I thought that was so many things that people write about seem like common sense, but Sometimes we need someone to help us. Well, we do. To rein that in. Yeah, well, because we're not really taught, you know, how to lose someone or something in life. We're taught very much how to gain stuff, but never how to lose someone or how to lose things, or even how, you know, to cope when we lose a job. You know, there's lots of different losses, but one of the loveliest things my children say to me, they say, "Oh, Mum, you sound just like Nana," you know, when I find myself saying things and doing things that Mum would have done. And, you know, for me, that's continuing the bond that I have with her. And also, every time I think of mum, I always feel that I'm giving her spirit and energy, you know, I'm giving, you know, an energy to her spirit, which I love. Oh, that is lovely. I mean, that did make me giggle because my mum is still with us, and all my family live up north, but I've lived down south for the last 19 years, and my kids were raised and are still being raised down here. So my accent goes in and out depending on which family members I've been speaking to. And my kids kind of, if I've been speaking to my brother, they'll come in and go, "Oh, you sound like Grandma at the moment." And I found that quite hilarious, that they kind of use it as a dig for me at the moment. It's lovely because we do take on elements of people in our life, and you know, just because they've gone, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't still do that. And you know, it's really important, but we've also got to accept, and this is one thing that I really feel that is important is we have to accept that we all die. And if we can accept that that's a very natural part of life, our relationships will be so much better because we know that what we have today we may not necessarily have tomorrow. So I'm always consciously aware that the people who I have with me now may not be there tomorrow. And so I do try to always have complete communications with them, to tell them how I feel, you know, not to have any unsaid moments. And, and always when we part is to say goodbye, I love you, so that if something did happen, I always have that kind of, yes, I said goodbye, and yes, they know I love them, and I knew they loved me kind of thing. See, that's, I think that's a great idea, and it really panics me when me and the kids have argued about something and I've had to go to work or something, and the last word was something like, argh, you never do as you're told. And it does wind me up, but you know what, especially at the moment, on another show that I do, I did a piece on patience because it's so very hard to have patience at the moment. We're trying to homeschool or be under each other's feet, or everybody's frustrated that, you know, my 14-year-old can't live and do and see his friends and go out and get in trouble. I mean, I always know where he is, which is fantastic, but it's not what a 14-year-old should have, and he's frustrated. I'm frustrated for him, and that comes out in impatience. There's my 10-year-old who, you know, he's used to having his teacher telling him that he's doing things right or wrong, and it's a different kind of authoritarian position. And yet now I'm going, "No, you haven't put capital letters on that. No, no, no, no, no, no." And, you know, patience is hard to have. It is, but as long as you're, like, honest with each other and you say, "This is so hard for us both, and if I get get cross with you, and I get a bit impatient, and I do this, I do that, it isn't about you. It's because I'm struggling to sometimes cope because I've got to do so much. I've got to do this, I've got to do that. And it's all about communicating honestly where we're at, you know, all the time. And, you know, say, look, I'm like this because— and if you find yourself impatient, just think, what is it that's really impatient? Is it really the fact that there isn't a capital letter at the beginning of this sentence? I feel I should be doing something else, or is it this? And always stop and ask yourself. So, if you ever experience even anger, impatience, frustration, anxiety, just ask yourself, what is going on here in me? What is it really that's bugging me? And, you know, you can kind of backtrack yourself and get hold of yourself like that. I always do, you know, when I start feeling frustrated or a bit angsty, I think, whoa, hold on, Leanna, what is it? What's going on?, and I'll ask myself, and then I can generally defuse it and, you know, and sort it there and then before it blows up into like an argument or something. Because I think more than ever, because we are kind of forced to be at home with each other constantly, and like you say, your 14-year-old should be out with friends, should be going to school, and because we're like being not just mother, father, teacher, friend, we're being everything to them, and, you know, there comes a time where something has to give. But I think if you can constantly ask yourselves and share, how does it make you feel? This is how it makes me feel. It may make you feel differently to me. We aren't the same. And I just think it's always that talking, allowing the frustrations to rise, allowing frustrated tears to flow, and ultimately then we get that equilibrium back. Well, yes, because, you know, it's good for our listeners to understand that we are fallible. And just, you know, we have a big thing in this household that if we lose our temper or we say something we shouldn't, you apologize and you explain that you know what you did was wrong. And I think an apology goes a long way. If we constantly had to live as if we were perfect, life would be fake. Absolutely. And I just, I mean, we did have— I have sat them down a few times over the last couple of weeks because, um, they go to their dad's every 2 weeks and then it's just, it's time for them to just have fun, whereas I'm the one that's constantly making them doing this, that, and whatever, and I'm teaching them, and then I'm making them do this and making them look after the dog while I do my recordings for the various radio stations that I do. And they're like, oh, you're always having a go at us. I'm like, no, can I sit you down? I'm not having a go. What I need you to understand is I need you to leave the house every day and go for a walk. It's not because I want you gone, or it's not because I'm forcing you to do exercise with me or come out and chat to me. It's because as a parent, you need— I need to make sure you're getting fresh air, you're getting out the house. And it's just Ctrl+Alt+Delete in your brain. There's a reason for it. And All us parents are expected to do this, trust me. No, all our parents are just letting them all play on Xbox. No, they're not, that's a great thing. I used to say to mine, can I hear you whining? I used to go, bah, can I hear you whining? I used to say, I'm not listening, I don't care what anybody else is doing, I care what you're doing. And just because somebody else does something doesn't make it right or wrong, but this is what you are doing, or this is what we do, and the reason for it is this. But I mean, you know, going back to where you said, you know, trying to be perfect, I was, you say that even our Lord chose the wrong disciple. There is no such thing as perfection. Oh, I love that! Somebody then came back to me and said, oh, it was all part of the master plan. Oh, great. Well, somebody's always got an answer somewhere, haven't they? But can you imagine if life— if you were perfect and you never did anything wrong? There's nowhere to improve, there's nothing to experience, and there's nothing to learn. Boring. You wouldn't actually know you were perfect because you'd have nothing to balance it again. Against. So it's like, how do you know if you're warm unless you've been cold? How do you know it's light unless it's been dark? So you need— everything in nature has to have a balance. You know, we have to have imperfection to know when we've moved to perfection. Oh wow, I like that. But even if we move to perfection, we still have to be consciously aware of imperfection, or else we don't stay in that state. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yes, completely. I mean, you know what, it is It's so reassuring and very evident when someone has passion in their work, and this is so obviously you in your work with bereavement. And I wake up every day, Hazel, and I throw that duvet back and I bring the day on, because my mother always taught me that you have to serve society in whatever— whatever you do, you have to serve your fellow man. And whether that's sweeping the streets, serving in a shop, being a funeral director, being an interviewer, you are serving your fellow man, you're working for them, you're entertaining them. Because without purpose, what is life? And without working for fellow man, what is life? And even though you get paid for your work, you still have to serve society. And that's how I've been brought up. And whenever I used to say to Mum, you know, when I was younger, "Oh Mum, I'm fed up, I'm bored, I'm feeling depressed," she used to say to me, Take yourself to Christie Cancer Hospital, walk up and down the children's ward, then come home and tell me you're fed up. Oh, I like your mum, she sounds very straightforward, I like that. She's so wise, I used to say, right mum, I've got it, I've got it, I'm good to go. Can I not go there? I think I know what I'm going to see. It's all about taking yourself out of yourself and being aware of the needs of others. And that's what makes us tick. But I mean, it's obvious that this is your calling, but how do you cope with the highs and the lows? Because helping somebody through a horrible time is a high, but there must be some lows in your work. Oh my gosh, terribly. When we have to care, I mean, I've seen the most horrific suffering, the most horrific emotional pain, you know, when when people lose their children, their babies, it's just very, very difficult. But we have, you know, as a caregiver, I always find that I'm like, it's, I feel I'm very reactive and very responsive. So when somebody comes into my care for emotional help, I don't have a set artillery that I would fall into and say, right, you need this, you need that. I just keep myself very clean and very open, and until I actually sit down with them, I don't know what I'm going to say. And I almost feel like a conduit, and the words just come. And the more I give, the more I seem to be able to, and I don't seem to carry any residue. I don't know why, because it's not about me, it's about them. It's not my experience, it's theirs, and I'm simply here to help them. So I don't make it about me. If I did, I wouldn't be able to do my job because I wouldn't be able to talk to anybody. So it's not about me, it's always about the other person. Wow, that's such an incredible answer. I assume you're getting some incredible responses to your book as well? I am, but the pandemic has been particularly difficult for me because I've always worked face-to-face with people and I've And I, as I say, I'm very instinctive, very intuitive, I'm very responsive to what people need. So I don't know what I'm going to give them until I'm with them. I've had that removed, so I'm not actually with people as much as I would like to be because obviously of the safety of pandemic. And, you know, so I found that really difficult to make that adjustment. It must be because the numbers have been restricted and how people are allowed to actually have funerals in the past 10 months. Yeah, I mean, that's just heartbreaking. I mean, luckily I haven't had to attend or not to be able to attend a funeral, but for those that have been in that situation, it's just heartbreaking. And I remember my mum was getting stressed where she was saying, if something did happen, nobody would be allowed to come and see me in hospital, and then nobody would be able to come to my funeral. And I was like, 'Oh my God, okay, you need to think about something else.' Well, the thing is, of course, that is so true, and what your mum said is right, because what's happened is, is COVID has hijacked our funerals and it's hijacked our end-of-life experience. So, but we cannot make somebody's death just about COVID because they died in pandemic, because we have to remember that that person has lived a whole life, you know, hopefully a long life, but, you know,— and we have to focus on the life that's been lived and try not to just focus on that ending in pandemic, because it tends to overshadow everything and just holds us in a place of limbo. So I try to encourage people to really focus on the life of the person, and it's— even though funerals, and I've always felt that the funeral rituals are so important, you know, they're vital, they're vital I think for our mental well-being and moving forward, but It's trying to separate the fact that somebody's died during pandemic and maybe even of COVID but also to just see how important that the life they have lived is, and that's where our focus needs to be. And like your mum said, if she was taken to hospital and then died, nobody could see her in hospital. That is a lesson there that we can take to have great communication with those we love now whilst we can. Before anything happens to us. So let's make it all good now, and let's live— I mean, there's an old proverb that says, "Dwell as one about to depart." And if we could think like that, you know, our interactions with each other would be more honest, they would be more open, they would be more fulfilling. And I think that's where we need to look at. We need to look at life, not death. And we need to focus on the whole life of the person, rather than the fact that I couldn't see them, they died, we couldn't go to the funeral. Because that will just hold you in a place of pain. So you have to choose to take yourself back and just think about the relationship that you shared with the person. Because I— I mean, in my book I say if we were to look at grief as a tree, the fruits of that tree are our memories, and we have to be allowed to pick them. We have to let ourselves pick the memories and enjoy them. Oh wow. Now, I'm interested in your opinion on a particular situation, just because I was reading through your book and I was trying to process what I could take from it in regards to my grandma, who, she's still with us, but we did have to say goodbye to her last Christmas. I traveled up to Huddersfield and I went to say goodbye because she was extremely ill. She's had Alzheimer's and dementia for many many, many years, and she had cancer and she was basically end of life. Um, and me and the kids went up and we went to go and see her, and she is still going now. My gosh, she must be a medical phenomenon. And, um, but the thing is, she has no recollection of who I am now. She doesn't really recall who my mom is or any of her children. And, um, she was one of those people that even 60 years ago she had 5 jobs, she was a magistrate, she would backpack, she'd, you know, lots of kids with— Bit of dynamo. Yeah, if she had the job, well, the job she had 50 years ago, if a woman had those jobs now with 4 children, everyone would think she was some sort of— an android. Yeah, I mean, it was like Superwoman. Superwoman. Um, I came around Southeast Asia with her. We had some great times. Like, when she was 76, she was on the back of my moped on Koh Phangan Island from Thailand, and we're all having an absolute riot. But when I saw her last, and she was very stressed, and she goes, 'I know I'm supposed to know who you are, but I don't, and it's upsetting me,' I haven't seen her since. I mean, I've not been allowed because of COVID but I don't think I would have anyway, because I think if she'd been given the choice 10 years ago, she wouldn't want me to see her soiling herself, not knowing who she is, and crying constantly because of the stress of— it's a horrible illness. And I've made that decision to not see her, which has kind of been taken away from me anyway because of COVID But you've respected your grandma in that anyway. I do. You do. I mean, because I've always wondered whether that's the right thing to do, and I just think— I think if I if I was in her position, I wouldn't want my grandkids and my great grandkids to see her in such a dire situation. I mean, what you've got to remember, of course, as well, Hazel, in all of this is that she's receiving loving care, and even though we have COVID prior to that, you know, we still have to visit those we love. And even though it's harrowing to see the changes under the circumstances, I think that's absolutely fine because your grandma is the lady that was on the back of the moped at 76. And the more you see her like this, the more difficult it is to kind of keep that memory and to keep her, and that is your grandma. Because let's face it, the moment the diagnosis of Alzheimer's is issued, that is when you start to grieve, because that is the beginning of your grieving journey with losing your grandma. And it, you know, to say, do I visit her or do I not, it's very difficult because we can't leave people just in a home and nobody see them. No. And that, you know, as long as they have loving care and as long as they have that, you know, that cosseting around them, that is so important. But I completely appreciate where you come from because it's awful how we can survive, that how the human body can survive to the degree it does, where we see, you know, the ravages of Alzheimer's, the ravages of physical disease, and it just absolutely gets to the stage where it's harrowing to watch, and it's as painful to watch as it is to go through it. Oh yeah, I mean, there's— it's, it's a whole minefield, isn't it? But yeah, thank you for letting me ask that question. Yeah, because you— for you, it's so important, and especially for your children as well, Hazel, that you are in a strong position to be able to talk about your grandma, this dynamo, who was kind of like a superwoman, who was riding on the back of a moped at 76 years old, who did 4 jobs, and who had this fantastic capacity for getting things done, but, and for grabbing life with 2 hands and living it. Oh yeah, I mean, she only stopped backpacking around Australia in the mid-'80s. It's amazing. I mean, that is a lesson to everybody, what you can do. And, you know, her life is a wonderful lesson to you and to your children. So you must keep that, and you must keep that going, and, you know, let them know that they've come from this fantastic heritage of ability to function and ability to do and to do well and to do your best, because that's what your grandma's done. Oh yeah, I mean, I've taken from— even my mum gets annoyed at how much independence I have. There's like my grandma, then my mum and her siblings, and then there's me. It's like skip a generation. And, you know, even at 16, I was like, "Hi Mum, I'm going backpacking!" She'd go, "No, you're not!" I'm like, "Yes, I am!" My grandma would be going, "Ooh, book me a ticket too!" Well, they say everything skips a generation, don't they? Oh, they do! Oh, that's interesting. I wonder what my kids will have. I mean, talking of people that we do admire, one question I do like to ask for Get Booked here at women's radio station and men's radio station is, who is out there at the moment that you just think is smashing it? And it doesn't matter whether it's to do with COVID or whether it's to do with your line of work, just somebody who you just go, wow. I see lots of people like that during the course of my work. I don't have many great public figures that I go wow to, but my wows are the people who have experienced the horrific losses, loss of children, lost their babies, lost, you know, the only person that they may love, their only that, you know, they're complete rock. They're the people who get up every day that I go, wow, to that function and get through the day. You know, they're my heroes, and I see so many of them in the course of my work that I find it so humbling. And that, you know, when I have my own traumas, I just need to think about the people I work for, and that gets me out of bed every day. That's brilliant. I mean, I do work for another community station, and it's so nice to be able to just come across somebody in our local community and then be able to go on to the show and say, do you know what, I came across this person the other day, they run this tiny little shop, and what they did, the initiative they had— there's a local shop to me and they leave a little basket outside with chickpeas and egg and cress sandwich and flour or sugar or beans or whatever, and these things are like at a cost of 30p each to them, but it's still the thought, and it just says 'If you're hungry and you can't afford to come in and buy something, please just take it.' Yeah, oh, but also Hazel, we collect for the local food bank here, and there's Pastor Anne who works at the local Baptist church. She runs the food bank, and one of the staff here saw Anne yesterday, and she was nearly crying because during this time of pandemic she's struggling to cope with distributing all the foods, etc. So there is a local Clayton group that Carl from our work here is involved with, so we're going to try and step up what we can do to help. She's an absolute heroine, that woman, you know, the things that she does for the community. And they're practically unsung heroes, but it's exactly somebody like Ann who are the people that I go wow to. Do you know what I point out on my community show is that, you know, if you Sometimes it's— if you're feeling a little bit low, and quite a few people are struggling with morale at the moment, but it's quite altruistic. If you're feeling a little bit low, do you know what, search through your cupboards and just go and donate something. It doesn't have to cost you very much at all, but you'll suddenly go, 'Oh, do you know what, I feel like I've done something good,' and it gives you that bit of a boost. And there's nothing wrong with altruism. No, well, this is where it becomes becomes not about us, about some, it's about, always about the other person, about someone else, and about doing for the someone else. And it comes back to serving society. And even giving a tin of beans, it could, you could mean a main meal for someone. You know, so it's about looking after each other and serving society, and in doing that, we do feel better. Yeah, I mean, I actually, do you know what, something else I did the other day, and I quite often remind people about this as well, that we're all sorting our cupboards out, defrosting our freezer, we're getting rid of clothes, or we're sitting there going, we've got nothing to do, might as well try on these clothes. If they don't fit, I'm getting rid of them. And I've been putting them in old suitcases and taking them to homeless shelters and things like that. And it's not landfill anymore. It's kind of sorting things out, which is great for our mindset, and then just helping other people out. And it's just really simple things to do. Yeah. And also I've noticed as well during this time of pandemic, whereas I would like buy new clothes, etc., I'm kind of wearing what's in my wardrobe, you know, that was just there. I think, oh, I'll buy something new. So it's great. So I'm, you know, rehashing my old outfits and just wearing all the clothes. So it's even better. That's really funny actually, Liana, because I was looking through my wardrobe the other day and I was just thinking, because I'd been looking on some of the websites at the sales and I was like, oh, what's the point in getting something to wear? I'm not going out anywhere. And I was just looking through my wardrobe and I was thinking I might even colour code them for something to do, and I realised I had something in my wardrobe that was actually in one of my online baskets, and I'm thinking, that's ridiculous, I didn't even know what I had in my wardrobe. So just, you know, check what you've got. To show how we get so caught up in living that we don't actually realise what we've got. Yeah. Oh wow. Well, we've done quite a lot. Let me say, most of my wardrobe is black, and when I first started the profession, because it was quite a new obviously for a female to be a funeral director all those years ago, people used to say to me, what on earth made you become an undertaker? And I always used to say, only a man could ask that, because women know that black is so slimming. And then I have to tell you this, Hazel. When I'd started my training at the age of 17, there was this old chap I used to train with, and I said to him one day, I said, Jack, I said, why aren't there any more 'Why are there no more female undertakers?' And I mean, you've got to remember, I was young, young, I was asking a million questions, I never stopped talking, never stopped wanting to learn, you know, I wanted to know why everything was. And so I said, 'Well, why are there no more female undertakers?' And he said to me, 'There's a lot of silence involved in this job.' I was like, 'Shut up!' I think that's brilliant. I did actually say in my intro that, yeah, you knew that this was your calling from such a young age, and wasn't it your Your mum who turned around and said, yeah, yeah, you want to be a funeral director, why don't you go and like volunteer there? Yes, she did. Well, I was 9, so from the age of 9 I always wanted to be an undertaker, and at 15 I still wanted to. So mum said, oh, I'll send you down to a local funeral home and you can see how you like it. So she rang them and told them to put me off because she of course didn't think it was a suitable job for her daughter. So they took me down and I absolutely loved it. So when mum picked me up, I said, "Oh mum, it was so good. They said I can go back next week. Yes!" And I remember mum putting her head in her hands saying, "No!" That backfired. She went on to become, you know, a great support. I mean, without mum, I would never have managed, you know, through having my two children. She babysat, she used to look after the funeral home for me when I went on funerals. She used to clean and bring fresh flowers and dust and everything. She was brilliant. Yes, so she ended up being a great supporter of me. Wow, this is brilliant. And that is, you've got your own funeral home called Champ Funerals, which can be found at champfunerals.com. That's right. And then somebody once said to me, where did you get your surname from? And I said, from my father. I think they think I made it up, Champ. I did actually, I was once engaged to somebody who was a terrible person. But I think I'd very— I was very young and I was just like, oh, his surname's Champion, that's fantastic! And then I realised that wasn't a good enough reason to marry somebody. But yeah, Champ and Champion, they're brilliant. Yes, so there we are. Yes, I always say Champ by name, Champ by nature. I like that. I used to, unfortunately, have a best friend in junior school called Pratt. Which didn't go down quite as well using— oh dear, bless her heart. We digress. Now, I want to go back to the book. Now, I do— I have made it very easy for people to get hold of the book on hazelbutterfield.com on my latest book reviews. If they click on the picture of your book within that review, it just goes straight to Amazon. Now, where else can people get hold of How to Grieve Like a Champion? They can contact us here at Champ Funerals via our website champfunerals.com. It's available at Waterstones and it's available online at all bookstores, WHSmith, everywhere. That's great, isn't it, that it's really— it's been received quite well and it looks fantastic. I think it's perfectly done. It's kind of not in your face but doesn't look morbid. So I think it's great whoever designed that. That was the great publisher's red door, but I am currently writing an additional chapter to the book. We are ready to go to reprint, and I'm writing a chapter on grieving during pandemic. So I'm bringing in all the experiences of this year— well, last year, the pandemic— and, you know, the reactions and how we can kind of cope and how we can move forward, because we don't know how long this is going to last. So I'm including that chapter. That should be ready within the next month. And would you consider writing another book? I am, I've already started my second. Ooh, tell us, tell us all about it. Well, it's called How to Live Like a Champ, because when I was writing the How to Grieve Like a Champ, what we tend to do in our life is we tend to, and it's the same I suppose in the medical profession, we wait till something happens before we try and fix it, rather than prepare for it. So medically, we get a disease and then we go to the doctor to be repaired, rather than think, right, what can I do myself to prevent this?. And so, How to Grieve Like a Champ, yes, is for people who have lost someone, and who are helping someone who's lost someone, or who wants to prepare. So, while I was writing the book, I thought, well, gosh, I'm actually telling people how to live. So, to die well, we have to live well. So, the next book is How to Live Like a Champ, and I'm just on with that. I don't know when it will be ready, but it's already in the making. I love— I'll please make sure I'm on the list, one of the first people to get that. And then there's a third one planned. Oh wow, can you tell us a little bit about that? It's going to be called How to Have Champ Children. Oh! Because when I was working on the book, the first book, I went away for a week. I went down to Kent for a week on my own with my dog, rented a beautiful house right on the coast in Sandwich Bay. I didn't see another human being for a whole week, apart from two fishermen, and who were out very early one morning as I was having a jog along the beach. And I literally had to just immerse myself in the whole child and children world of loss and life, and it was the most challenging chapter. And again, that is very much how to bring children up. And then I've got two sons, Maxwell and Lawrence, 28 and 23, and, you know, they And they are both very fine young men because I've brought them up prepared for loss, that they know all about my work, they've both worked with me here, you know, they have this great understanding and this great joie de vivre and this living for the moment. And so I've got lots of material to pull on for the book 3, How to Have Champ Children. I can't wait for the next 2, I think they're going to be fantastic. And now publicly— they must be so proud of you. Well, now I've verbalised that out there, that's going to really spur me on to get my pen out and keep writing. Oh, the children, the boys are, they love it, they really do, and they're very proud of me, and it's wonderful to have their support. Even though when they were at school and if I'd been on a funeral and I had my kind of like funeral suit on, especially my youngest son, I used to go and pick him up in his say, "Mum, why on earth are you wearing that costume? You look ridiculous." I bet the main thing that their friends used to ask, "Have you seen a dead body?" It did. Oh wow. They love my work. They're very, very interested in what I do. They are, which is lovely. No, I think it's great as well, and I think it's nice for children to— it's to have a role model where they see their mum and/or dad really enjoying their work and getting something out of it, and it kind of spurs them on to do very similar, to kind of make sure that they get the same amount of fulfillment out of their work. You know, lead by example. Yeah, that is so right, because both my boys love their jobs. They go 110%, you know, they work hard, they play hard, you know, they enjoy all aspects of their life And you're right, because I love my job, I love working, I've always worked, and the children as babies used to come to the funeral home with me, and they both from very young ages watched a cremation, watched a cremation, and just knew absolutely everything from being a very young age. Well, being exposed to it, I suppose that makes it so much easier. I mean, I've had a friend who lost her father and he got cremated, and she'd never been to a funeral before, and then to see the process of the cremation, it chilled her to the bone. I mean, it's a shock element, isn't it, for those that haven't had to go through losing somebody? Well, it is, but also we've got to remember, I mean, a lot of— you know, if we're not— if we're suddenly plunged into a bereavement and we've not had much experience and we may have never visited a crematorium, they can be very, very stark places. And it can be very functional, and I always try to work away from that functional aspect of it. And, you know, this is where, you know, this boutique element that you get here is I try and get away from that clinical functional process. And if you can prepare yourself for it prior, so if we're aware of what happens to us, what will go on, rather than waiting until we're in it, you know, then we're going to approach it from a far stronger position. And it's all about just talking about it and being open to it. I mean, I've been trying to talk about grief and funerals for years and years, Hazel, and nobody would listen. Oh, they wouldn't. They used to think I was crazy. And now, because my nickname years ago was Morticia, but now, I mean, with the— with Prince William and Prince Harry, you know, they talk very openly about the loss of Diana. And, you know, people are now wanting to talk about it, and I think that's great. Eat because it's healthy. We cannot walk around surprised by our own funeral. This book isn't for somebody who's lost somebody, it's for somebody who has either lost somebody, is about to lose somebody, or is supporting somebody, or may ever lose somebody, which is everybody. Don't wait for it to happen to then try and, you know, prepare yourself. It's, it's, it really is— for all the listeners out there, um, it, it's a good and helpful read no matter what's going on in your life. It really is. And I remember when I started writing it, because I obviously met Richard Farley from Dragon's Den, and it was Richard who'd asked me a few questions, and he said, you've got to write this book. Your passion and what you know, he said, it's just not out there, you know, you need to write this book. And so I said, I said, "How do I write a book, Richard?" And he said, "Just sit down and start writing." Yeah. He said, "You know your subject." And I said, "Well, what do I do?" He said, "Just sit down, decide on your chapters, and it will come." And, you know, he was right. The minute I started writing the book, it just came. And it, I mean, it did take me 2 years because, of course, I had my work in between and other commitments, etc. It took me just over 2 years to write, but, you know, I didn't have a problem writing it whatsoever. Because it just came, and it was the experiences that I was living through on a daily basis with families. It was also drawing on the feedback I'd had with the thousands of families that I've guided through their bereavements, and it just kind of sorted the chapters, and it kind of just like a jigsaw puzzle, you know, right? What you know. Yeah, and, and it was, it was everything that I felt and knew, and it was like a jigsaw puzzle. All the bits just slotted into place. I mean, I could have titivated it for months and months and months and kept titivating it, and then the publisher said, "No, that's it." Was it easy to get it published? Yes, I just, I took it to the first publishers and they, they just published it. They thought it was fantastic. They said, "There's nothing like it out there, and we really would like to publish your book." And so I didn't even look at anybody else, and I just stayed with Red Door. Red Door, and they were absolutely fantastic to work with, so supportive that, you know, they've been absolutely brilliant, and I have no doubts at all that I'm with the right publishers. Do you know what? I've spoken to quite a few authors that have gone through Red Door, and they're quite hands-on and creative, and they seem to have the right answers for each individual person. There doesn't just seem to be one answer for everybody. They seem to really kind of put their heart heart and soul into each individual. And it's not about money either, which was, which I noticed a lot with them, Hazel. They are passionate about your subject and they understand your subject and they research it and they, so they can assist. And the support they gave me was just tremendous. Oh, that's really nice to hear actually, because there's a lot of people out there writing books at the moment. Quite a few people struggle to get published. I think, I think it's not a surprise that you were, you found it quite easy to get published. Published, but it's nice to hear that there are some good companies out there that are doing things properly. Yeah. Oh no. With heart and soul. That they were the first one I went to is just quite magical really, and you know, it was just the right move for me and they've been great, and it's just about letting them see your passion, you know, for other people who are writing a book. Um, you've got to let them see your passion, to see the person. You've got to make it real. And if you're passionate about something and it's in you, it will come out. I think— I mean, it's so obvious. I mean, as I said to you at the beginning of this interview, it's so obvious the way you write that this is your passion, it is your calling. Um, and I definitely can't wait for the next books as well. But in regards to, um, how to Live Like a Champ. Something else I like to ask all of my guests is, what are your 3 top tips on well-being? You know, how, how to live as well as you can. Well, I suppose one of the most important things that I would say is move and eat well. So your diet is so important. You— we really are what we eat. And so eat well, but move with it. You know, exercise, whether it's walking, get fresh air. That is a biggie for me because that, you know, if you're feeling sluggish and you're feeling a bit blue and fed up, put your coat on, walk around the block, and you will feel better. And so that's a biggie for me. And also I think currently at the moment, one thing I would think mental wellbeing would be, don't keep running the news because it's got this huge spiral and it keeps it fresh and it makes it bigger and bigger and bigger. And so, I consciously do not watch much news, and I really do control what I'm seeing in the news, especially at this time, because that can very easily drag me down. So, I don't keep running the news at all. And then, I think the third one is just let everybody know how you feel about them. You know, tell the people in your life that you love them today. You know, when I part with my friends, I'll say to them, "I love you so much. You've made me feel this," or, "You've made me feel that." and thank you for that today, and I love you, and I always part on that. And I think that's really important because if you're sharing how you feel and you're sharing niceness with people, you feel nice yourself. And it's a respect, you know, you're respecting someone else, and when we respect someone else, we respect ourselves too. So it has like a knock-on effect. So I think that's really important, and I think there would be my 3 tips for well-being. I look— do you know what? I love them. And just, just, just so the listeners know, I don't know what, um, what, what you're going to say beforehand. I don't, I don't get answers from you beforehand. But it really interestingly, just sitting at the side of my computer at the moment, there are two envelopes that I've been packing this morning. One with lots of sweets in and like silly little things, which I'm just going to send out to a friend of mine today. I'm gonna go pick up some stamps when I walk the dog. And it's just something little. She only lives, you know, a 10-minute walk away, but just to post it, just because it's sometimes it's just nice. And she does the same for me as well. Um, and the other envelope is, um, I'm going to go and get a picture printed off of my dog cuddling up to her bump because she's pregnant. And, um, it's just something really similar, and I'm just gonna post it. And again, she only lives 15-minute walk away, and it's It's just, just both things will probably cost me the price of a stamp and maybe 50p on top, and it's just the thought of receiving something nice in the post, and it is just to kind of show people that you give a damn. Do you know, Hazel, you are a good friend. You're a perfect friend, and to have a friend, you must be a friend. And what a lovely friend you are. I think that's wonderful because you'll get the feeling of how your friend's going to feel when she receives the parcel bottle, when she opens it, it has the sweets, and then sees that lovely photograph with the dog, it's going to make her feel really great. But you're already feeling great about it, so how good's that? Oh, do you know what, I love it. And I am lucky, I have got some great friends. I mean, in the beginning of the pandemic, I had one friend that sent round about 6 of us 2 little pots with a little food bag worth of compost and a couple of sunflower seeds so that everybody could grow sunflower seeds at the same time. And it's just, you know, it's a competition. She won. Oh, I love that. See, things like that are just beautiful to do. And then if something does happen to either of you, you've always got that warmth and that niceness which will help you move forward. Yeah, and do you know, simple things, they don't have to cost a lot of money, you know. And it's just, you know, a lot of us have a little bit more time than we wanted at the moment, and you know You know, it's nice just to do something, and if you are going out for your daily walks, you know, if you haven't got a dog, it's a lot easier for people who've got a dog, that they've got a bit more of a purpose to go out there, but otherwise, go for a walk to the post office. Hazel, how about this for an exercise? Think of all the significant people in your life, and then if you were never going to see them again, what would you ask them or what would you tell them? And then do it. Oh, wow. And then do it. Yeah, that's— everybody out there, get your pen and paper out, write down the names of all the significant people in your life, and if you knew that you weren't going to see them again, what would you ask them? But also, what would you tell them? Because that's important too. I'm writing this down, by the way. What would you ask if you were never going to see them? Otherwise, you know what, my brain's like a sieve at the moment. If I don't write things down, I'm not going to remember. No, I'm not. We've got memory. And yet, so, yet, so if you're not going to, if you, if you could ask them, just have one last conversation with them but not see them again, what would you ask them and what would you tell them? I love that. And they will be really significant, you know, what you tell them will be an absolutely significant statement and what you ask them will be a learning that you will take with you. Wow, yeah, that's blown my mind. I love that. I've written it in really big letters as well, so I remember it. I mean, I gave a talk to a group a couple of years ago, and I took an envelope, and in the envelope there was a piece of paper folded, and the name of each person was on the front of their own envelope. And so during the talk, I said, each of you has an envelope in front of you. I said, you're not going to open it now. I said, but in the envelope is a date and a time that you're going to die. So they all started, you know, they all looked, oh my God, oh my God. They were all really serious and like shocked. And then they thought, haha, it's a joke because, you know, I'm still here. And it was really interesting to watch the emotions that they all went through. The shock initially of their first thoughts, you could see it on their face. Face, and then after like a minute or so they realized, oh, it's only, you know, it's only a joke, it's not real. And then I said, actually it is real, the date and time, only we just don't know it. So then I said, I want you to open your envelopes and whatever came into your head when I first asked you that question is what you need to work on. I said, within the next 6 months you have to have done that first thing. And somebody was crying. She'd had a massive fallout with her mother. She knew she needed to repair it, but she was scared. But she said, 'It's the first thing that came into my head. I've got to do this.' And it was absolutely massive. And so it's all about communication. And that sent chills down my spine. Telling everyone what we need to tell them, but also learning from them what we need, but also accepting that sometimes people will not give us what we want. And we're only responsible for our half of the relationship. And there will always be those relationships that may be slightly toxic or we can't control, but we can control our half of the relationship. We can't change anyone else, but we can change our half, and that's the only thing that we can work on. And by telling or asking, we can have that completion, and that is where we get our freedom to move forward as a complete person. Them without carrying loads of emotional baggage. Can you start writing these down and putting them on some sort of little Canva promo and putting it up on your Instagram feed? Because they're fantastic. Oh, thank you. Well, I do write a lot actually. I do write lots of articles, Hazel, for various publications, you know, all sorts, especially around this time of mental wellbeing. Awareness of mental well-being. I write lots of little articles. And so yes, I'm just actually thinking about our new little Instagram. So thank you for that. I shall surge ahead. Yeah, it's quite nice and easy to do them on Canva, which makes it kind of— you can make them all pretty and it kind of— they make it function and have animated bits for you. Just as a bit of a reminder to our listeners, if they're going to champfunerals.com, right down at the bottom there's all the different areas for them to follow you on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter. Yeah. And again, they can easily get hold of the book either through champfunerals.com, or they can go on to my latest blog on hazelbutterfield.com and just click on the picture, and it takes you straight through to Amazon. And you can either have it the next day, I think. It's quite, quite easy. Yeah. And it's also on Kindle. And yes, we are looking to doing the The talking one. Audible. The Audible, that's it, I couldn't think of it. Thank you, Hazel. I quite, yeah, I mean, I've only got 3 books on the go because I like it that I have one on Audible because although we're allowed to meet up with one other person for walking exercise, you know, it's not always possible and it's not always safe, and depending on where you're gonna go, you want to be able to stop and start and do whatever you need to do. And I take Audible with me because then it means I kind of I'm either not on my own, or if my kids— if I go walk with my kids and they shove their earphones in, I'm like, "Fine, I'm gonna do the same." And I do like it. I think there is a place for Audible, and some people just either don't like to read or they struggle with it. They struggle with the concentration. And I think it's fantastic that there's something out there for everybody, whether they need to hold a physical book, whether to read it on an iPad or a Kindle, or Audible, and I think, you know, it's fantastic, and there's some great deals out there. Yeah, I know loads of people who simply just don't have time to read, so they will always select the Audible route, and they'll go in the car, and they'll say, "I'll be driving on my commute, and I will listen." And also in the bath, you can put it, you can play it, and it get, you know, it's a great medium really, the Audible one. So that is in the pipeline soon. Brilliant, that's good to hear actually. And also, do you know what, for people that are listening and going, "Oh, I just don't have the money," you know, libraries provide Audible audiobooks for free. Yeah, thank you. So that's fantastic as well. Now, believe it or not, we have raced through the last hour. I haven't got through, you know— Can you believe it? Well, you did say to me it'll go very quickly and it has. Yeah, I feel like we could go on for absolutely ages. My boys will say, "Oh, Mum, you do like the sound of your own voice." All right, my boys say exactly the same thing. The monstrous sons. Well, I can't wait to have you back on the show with how to live like a champ and how to raise your children like a champ. So please do promise me you'll come back. I promise I will. I need to get scribing. Well, thank you so much. You've been wonderful to chat to. Everybody, please do go out and get yourself How to Grieve Like a Champ, and get it for your friends and family. It's one of those things that— one of those books that you should just have as like a Bible in your home. I think it's brilliant. Thank you so much. And thank you, Kate. It's been lovely to talk to you, and you keep on being a great friend. Well, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day, and thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thank you for listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station.