Get Booked – Karin Blak, Talking Therapy

Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield and this is Get Booked, opening discussions and offering support via the incredible writing community out there. Come and join us, get involved, and if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked, and it's up on our SoundCloud. Here at Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station, we love talking to authors about their new releases, going into detail about the topics covered, the mental health and well-being elements, publishing and writing tips, and giving you the extra special insight into a different book each week. Now, I've been working my way through today's book and marking pages like no one's business. What Karen Black has achieved with her book Talking Therapy is quite remarkable, a sort of Bible for anyone who wants to know about the process of finding a therapist or becoming a therapist and what to expect and how to get the most out of your journey and then some. Unlike many books on the— and I'm going to use air quotes, which is great, great for radio— technical elements, Talking Therapy has a personable edge that reads like Karen is chatting away to you, providing examples to clarify or put certain situations into perspective, demystifying the air of vulnerability some may feel starting therapy and opening up to what is essentially a stranger, and enabling us with the confidence to get the results we deserve. Karen, hi, thank you for joining us. Hi Hazel, it's, it's really nice to be here, thank you. Well, you're very welcome. Now we have been talking a little bit off air and we are slightly worried that we're gonna need at least an extra 3 or 4 hours to just to slightly skate around the edges of this topic. And indeed what you discuss in the book, you must be very proud of what you've produced. Well, yeah, I mean, it was a bit of a feast to actually achieve this amount of writing. I didn't know I had all this information inside me, to be honest with you. Well, you know what, that struck me so much that the incredible detail that you go into. Now, I've had therapy, I I love the topic as well. I did a degree in psychology because I've just always loved it, and I've loved kind of trying to understand a little bit more about what goes on in our heads and trying to appreciate what happens with other people as well. And it's just— I was gobsmacked just how eye-opening and some of the things you bring to the reader's attention You feel like it should be common sense, but it isn't. Common sense isn't that common, is it? No, it's a— well, common sense, this thing about common sense is that it's only useful if you are conscious of the knowledge that you are carrying around with you. So sometimes we can do things and not really be aware of what it is that we are doing. And once it's pointed out to us, once we know the details of it, we can actually use it. Far better than we otherwise would. Yeah, and also it's the way that you could actually provide a perspective from somebody who's had a therapy as well as somebody who's provided therapy meant that you really did touch every single nook and cranny. You managed to come from so many different angles, and you must be getting a great response back from people who have read the book. Well, you see, it's not out just yet, so I'm still sitting here holding on to the edge of my desk waiting for the response out there, you know, and I'm really, really pleased to hear what you're saying. That's, that's lovely, wonderful feedback. Well, there are various people like me that get an advance copy and will have been putting the various reviews out there, mine of which is going to be popping up onto hazelbutterfield.com, and I always make it very easy for people to get hold of it so they can just click on the picture of the book and it'll take them through to Amazon and get hold of it. And I do think even if you're not wanting to get therapy, um, maybe if you just want to support somebody else that's having therapy or you think possibly could benefit from therapy, it's, it's an all-rounder. There really is. I can't really think of anybody who this book couldn't benefit. And what is the release date for Talking Therapy? So it's the 9th of February, so it's not far away. It's a couple of weeks away now. Probably by the time this interview goes out, actually, because we have the joy of pre-recording because all the studios are closed. Yeah, I'm praying that the cat doesn't try and jump on my computer and that the dog doesn't suddenly decide she needs my attention. Oh, it's a personal extra, that's fine. Hopefully the kids will remember and not come in and say, "Mom, I need help with my home They quite like the days that I do Get Booked because it means they can kind of hide in the room and just kind of play on their phone for a little bit. Oh, they can have a break, yeah. We all need that at the moment though, don't we? Oh, we do, we do. I mean, how has the last year been working out for you? Well, you know, it was really interesting because I got— I signed the contract for this book in February last year. And we were in Australia when the offer came through, so I signed it when I came back. And then of course lockdown happened, and that was really when I sat down and wrote this book. So the book was written from COVID to cover in 3 and a half months. Wow, really? That's incredible. Yeah, yeah. I really thought because of the detail that you went into, I mean, do you know what, sometimes when you just know you've got a book in you and you've got such knowledge, it seems daunting, and as soon as you start writing, 3 hours later you realize you've already written, you know, quite a few thousand words. And so I guess you're one of those people where it just flowed, and I think that's incredible. Yeah, I mean, it was pretty intense, but then there was nothing else to do because we couldn't go out and visit people and do other things. So it was— it came at the right time for me. So this last year has been all about this book and writing articles. I've written a few these last couple of months in the run-up to publishing date. And but you know what I do miss at the moment, and like so many others, it's that physical connection with other people. Going out and meeting up with my kids and friends. And so I go running, but at the moment, because my husband, well, if he got COVID, then he would really struggle. So I can't even go running with my running buddies at the moment. So it's, ah, it's, I'm really, really missing that human connection. And it's interesting that A lot of the issues that we're having, especially with our mental health and mental well-being during the last 12 months, is because it's not that we— yes, we miss our friends, but it's what you get from that. It's the gossiping, it's the airing what's going on in our head, it's the going to the café and being able to have your little bit of time out and reading a book where there's something going on around you, but you're not homeschooling, you're not constantly seeing everything that's going on in your— in your own home. I mean, I know that it will take me an hour in a café to do what it would take me 3 or 4 hours to write or arrange at home. And there's so many different elements to the wellbeing issues that we're all experiencing. You know, just getting away from, you know, the mild vicinity around our own homes and just the random interactions we have when we're going on the tube and the trains and popping into a cafe, or even just speaking to a waiter. And it's— and this is why it's so incredibly timely that this book has— is due to be released, because there'll be people that need the therapy. I didn't even know about that when I first pitched the book, you know. Well, yeah, I'm sure there's many people at the moment that are going, right, I do need to have therapy, or maybe the lockdown has brought a few more issues. People, people have had a lot more time to think, which means that issues have come to the fore somewhat more. And I, what I like, when I started my therapy, I didn't go through the process that you highlight in your book about doing the research and where to find out and make sure that the people, the therapists, are properly accredited. Or, you know, if for some reason you don't gel with the therapist, what to actually do in that you're not to blame. And, you know, to sometimes— I think many people might have tried therapy. I know I have in the past, and I've not got on with a therapist. I just thought, oh, this just isn't for me. And so blaming the therapy rather than the relationship you have with a therapist. Yeah. And also, you know, if you try a therapy and even you do the full course, 20 weeks or a year or whatever it is, and then you want to go back to it, you might not want to discuss the same issue. And, and that you highlight that, you know, maybe try a therapist that takes a different approach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, who doesn't have preconceived ideas of what you initially wanted to talk about? Because we're constantly evolving. What might have been an issue for us 10 years ago could be completely different now, and we're all a work in progress, aren't we? Absolutely are, yeah, yeah. This idea that— that's something I spoke about with somebody else who said, well, don't we need to sort ourselves out before we can have a really good relationship with somebody else? And actually, no, it would be, you know, if we aim to sort ourselves out before we could have a good relationship, we would remain single for the rest of our lives because we are work in progress. There's no doubt about it. And to aim to be perfect before we engage with somebody else is aiming for the impossible. It's aiming for perfection. And once we hold on to perfection, we start going down the root of holding on to it too tight and not being flexible enough to be able to go with whatever comes at you and bend with the wind, you know, bend with the storms and you will weather them. We can't do that if we think we are sorted. Can you imagine if you started a relationship with somebody who was completely perfect and sorted? You wouldn't be able to have a meaningful relationship. You wouldn't be able to be honest about your own issues. I mean, I know that if I was dating somebody who was constantly happy and sorted and had no concept of any issues, I'd be like, oh well, I can't tell you mine because you'll think I'm bonkers. But you've just said it there, Hazel, having no concept of what issues are for other people or for yourselves stops you from actually being able to talk about and engage on a deeper, deeper level with somebody else. And, and it's, you know, it's, it's having that um, understanding of other people. And also, no matter how perfect you might be, and even if you were, you know, completely, uh, mental problem-free— that's probably not the right terminology— but that doesn't mean that something can happen the next day. You might suffer a bereavement, you might lose your job, there might be the kids' issues. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's possible. I think anybody who thinks they're completely sorted are the ones who definitely are not sorted. They're in denial. Yeah, they're not looking at it, you know. I do remember actually speaking to a friend, um, when I'd suffered quite, um, a horrific breakup, and I said, I'm really struggling with my mental health, and I've had some depression and anxiety. And she said, I just— I know that a lot of people have these issues, but I've just never had these issues. And I'm going, really? Really? And she's like, no. I mean, even after your parents' divorce, I mean, that was pretty bonkers. And she's like, yeah, no, it's fine. What about when you split up with so-and-so? She goes, no, it's cool. I was like, oh, really? This is just— I was absolutely gobsmacked. Um, but something that I— a chapter that I really found interesting is how people around you deal with you while you're having therapy. Now, how to unpack this. I mean, yes, it's important to open up to your children to an extent so they understand that, you know, mummy or daddy is going to be changing and they're going to be, you know, when people say, oh, you're just not the same as you used to be, good, you did need to change. However, there are relationships where people fell in love with a particular person, and if they have therapy and work through some issues, there are going to be possibly some quite catastrophic changes. Yes, this person's persona. Yeah, yeah. And this is where relationships can change quite dramatically. And I, as a relationship therapist, I would see couples every now and again where one person had been to therapy and the relationship had shifted, and the one who hadn't been to therapy couldn't quite understand what was going on and felt as if their partner had changed so much that they couldn't recognize them anymore. So this is where when one person goes through self-development, the kind of self-development that therapy tends to promote, the other person, the partner, really needs to engage in something for themselves as well to be able to keep up with that speed, if you like, of self-awareness so they don't start drifting apart, so they can still connect even if it's just talking about what it is that they're experiencing through that journey of self-development. You do some fantastic examples, um, on— you write about, should I say, of how you can create that open forum to discuss this with your family, your friends, your partner, just so they can engage with the process and understand a little bit more, rather than shying away and thinking, oh, they won't like me anymore. More and they'll reject me because I'm part of their old life and they clearly want to change that. You know, sometimes unfortunately relationships, um, can come incredibly under pressure because of the therapeutic process. But you know, if you really want it, you can, you can try your best. And all we can ever do is try. But there are— when I was reading about this chapter in your book, I was thinking, but what about when the issues the person is having hasn't realized that the issues are down to the past. And there must be a lot of fear involved, so many different dynamics of what is going on when somebody's having therapy. Um, and you know, whether you've been— you feel like you've been marginalized, or whether it's not the best relationship. And I want to make sure that our listeners are aware that therapy doesn't mean that they don't need to be scared that if they have therapy that their relationships are going to end. It's just— there are so many different outcomes, aren't there? Oh yeah, there are. No, no, no, I mean, it's not inevitable that relationships will end. And I think you also pointed something out there that is really interesting, and that's if you are in a relationship where your issues are partly down to your partner and you're worried about talking with them about it, then your therapist should really be talking with you about how to manage that, because these situations can vary enormously. So the fear of talking to your partner may come from the fear of being seen as faulty, but it may not be that. It could also be the fear of the consequences of talking with your partner about what you don't like about the relationship, in which case that's a different scenario. And we'll— we, we would then— certainly in my mind, I would then try and explore what that fear might be, because if it's domestic violence, then actually talking with your partner about why it is that you're not liking the relationship could be the wrong thing to do. So there are various scenarios where the therapist would explore this with us and, and really make sure that we are safe in whatever we try to do, how we try to manage our situation. And you do point out that there are situations where, um, the therapist might— they've got to be very careful as to— they're not going to give you the answer, they're not going to tell you what to do. They're trying to unpack and help you develop your own thought processes and figuring out what's going on. I had a relationship in the past where, um, he started having therapy, um, and it was because he had a gambling addiction and was in a huge amount of debt, and that forced me to not trust him. And while he was going through his depression, obviously it affects the relationship, um, it affects the intimacy because the trust is gone. And he was saying to me— this relationship isn't actually, um, there anymore— but he was saying that 'My therapist tells me that you're making my situation worse because you reject me.' Yeah. And now I don't think his therapist said that, but we sometimes like to— Yeah, we make it up in our head because we hear what it is that we need to hear at the time. So he needed to hear that or make that in his— make the therapist's words into something that he wanted to hear so he could put the blame on somebody else, perhaps. You know, I don't know, so I can't say, but— I mean, there was a lot of other issues that he needed to explore, but this is a good example of how if somebody, if your partner is having therapy, it's very good for you to both have therapy as well so that you can air particular issues or what's coming about in a more controlled environment with advice under obviously a separate therapist.— Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the same, blimey. But you know, also relationship therapy is a really good place to not just work out how you get on together, but to actually work through your individual issues too. Because in relationship therapy, you kind of mirror off each other what it is that's going on. And a therapist will be noticing these kind of unspoken behaviors and interactions that go on and be able to pinpoint those and actually get to the core of the issues that we have personally quicker than in individual therapy. So relationship therapy can be really, really amazing in that way of getting to the you know, the crux of the issues that we carry independently. That was the exact word that was coming up in my head, the crux of the issue. It kind of— it's perfect, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but this is— this is— this book helps us to kind of overcome these potential issues that may arise. And I can't stress enough that, you know, yes, if you want to try therapy or you want to learn a bit more about it. It's great for the person who wants to try it, but for the person who is supporting a partner or a child or a parent that's going through it, this book offers so many alternative ways to kind of— because everyone's different, different. One, one answer isn't going to be for everybody else. And I think the scope of what you've covered is remarkable. Um, and What I did find quite interesting, because I was quite surprised when I first walked into therapy, that there was a plastic chair and we're just across from each other and there's nothing on the wall. It feel— felt quite bare, especially when you see all these programs, these Americanized programs. Oh, I get it, yeah, yeah. Where there's, there's the couch and there's all the certificates here, there, and everywhere. And let's be honest, a lot of therapy that's going on at the moment, it's council-funded through various wellbeing services where a room is rented and can be used for various different things throughout the week, and it's discounted as well. And, you know, they're trying to keep the cost down, and so they're not making sure that they've got the Nespresso coffee machine in the corner, and you're not going to be sitting on plush leather and they're going to be wearing a Armani suit. It's, you know, it's quite different depending on what kind of therapy you choose and what your budget allows. And I was quite surprised at the kind of plastic canteen chair Yeah, I mean, I've worked in all kinds of settings. One setting was in— I think I mentioned that in the book— in children's centres, Sure Start centres, when they were around. And the therapy I did there were on little children's chairs. Would you kind of feel like me, mine would be some sort of power play? Yeah, I know. Well, we were all sitting on little children's chairs. So, I mean, it would be different if I was sitting on the teacher's chair. Chair, for example, and my clients were sitting on the little children's chairs, that would definitely be a big power play, wouldn't it? I mean, it was really interesting. And of course, there I had all kinds of resources I could use for therapy because it was filled with Lego and little figures and crayons and paper and, and stuff like that. And I love using that in family therapy because it's just such an expressive way. When you're sitting opposite somebody and you're talking and your eyes are meeting, sometimes, including in therapy, it can be really difficult to find the words to express yourself because that eye contact can feel quite intimidating. So I don't know if you've noticed when you stick your kids in the bath, for example, or you're driving in the car with them, Those are the moments when they come out with the most profound thoughts that they have had because they haven't got that eye contact. It's not as if anybody's seeing through them and their thoughts are free to roam. And so that was the kind of principle I used in the Sure Start Centres using the resources there. And quite often I'll just have a big piece of paper and some crayons there and I'll start doodling, my clients would start doodling, or we would start fiddling with the little figures on there and stuff like that. And things would come out in a different way to what it otherwise would be if we were just sitting there very seriously talking about issues. Now, I'm not saying that that's the wrong way of doing it, because that's the way I did it in my private practice, and it worked really well. It's also the way I did it in the eating disorder hospital. So it's You know, it's just a different way of working. And I want to point out, I mean, you do point out all the different ways that people provide therapy, and sometimes, you know, it's harder for some people to communicate what's going on. And engaging on something that you, you know, feel more of an affinity with, whether it's art or a different kind of an expression to make you feel comfortable, to kind of boost through that barrier. And the right therapist will find the right way to do that, which is why you talk about, you know, the research that you go into to try and find the therapist that works for you. And, you know, to not feel ashamed if you try one and you just didn't gel, and to find somebody else or to try a different process. I do, I do have a friend of mine, um, her daughter was doing therapy and it just didn't work, and then they started art therapy and she thrived from it. Because it was just a different, you know, she loved art and it made her feel comfortable and made her feel, you know, more at home, I guess. Yeah, well, it's not every one of us who, who like, or who can really, I can't remember the word now, but who can really grow from just talking. Some of us need something else, some other way of expressing ourselves, or some other kind of way of of learning. Um, I think I talk about that in the book too. Well, I mean, you, you also talk about, um, I mean, you really have— it isn't— as I said in the intro, it really is quite the Bible. And I found the section on dealing with how the fat therapist will behave towards you. So, um, I found it helpful because when I've I've done it in the past and I bumped into therapists in the street and whatnot. I'll tell you another story in a minute. Just making sure that the recipient understands that the therapist has to keep certain boundaries to be able to be the best they can be. It's not because they're authoritarian or standoffish or they're rejecting you. You explain the process and how, you know, I'm sure there's many a time where someone's told you something quite horrific that's happened to them and you just thought, oh, I just want to give you a hug or you know, look at you in a particular way. But you, you need to guard yourself to protect them so that they don't have a different idea of what that relationship is. It is the client and the therapist. It is not a friend. If it's a friend, you then have different motives and different information that you want to impart. Yeah, I mean, it's a completely different relationship. A friendship is not a therapist, and the therapist is not a friend. If you try to cross those over, I mean, for example, you might have a friend who is studying to become a therapist and needs some guinea pigs. Well, you cannot work in those kind of scenarios because as a therapist you would be looking upon your friend as a friend and then that stops you from actually going down the routes and putting up the challenges that— the therapeutic challenges that you need to be able to develop. You can't do that. It's pushing that friendship the boundaries in this friendship too far, and chances are that you will probably at some point either not have the kind of therapy that you need or the friendship will break down, you know, because it's too difficult to juggle both. One of the points you came up with was that if you develop a friendship with your therapist and you suddenly find out that they've had something happen in their life that resonates with you, you won't actually want to talk about it in case you upset them or you bring something back to the fore. And again, this is what I was saying before about some of it, it feels like it's common sense, but not, not until you actually point it out. And it's just, you know, helping people understand what goes on behind, you know, the curtains, I suppose. I did have a situation where I saw a therapist through the Wellbeing service for, I think it was 20 weeks, the contract that I signed up for, which I love the idea that they kind of make you commit because otherwise, you know, you sign a contract to make sure that you are actually going to stick to it, otherwise you can do more damage than good if you decide to give up after 3 or 4 weeks. You kind of open up the can of worms and then you go, "Eh, I'm going to leave that can of worms open there." But it was very random that I took my son to his football training session, and the new kid in the training session was the son of my therapist. Oh yeah, yeah. And she's like, ah, hi. I was like, oh, hi, how are you? She's like— and I'm quite a chatty person anyway, and she knew that. And I was there, it was actually a training session that went into a match, and I was there with my ex-husband. And it just happened to be that we ended up then all standing together because because all one side of the team stands together and all the others— if she stood apart, it would have looked even more bizarre. And I just kind of very discreetly said, I'm not going to say to him who you are because he will know that he will have been discussed in therapy. So let's just talk about life in general, and I'll— if he asks, I'll say that I met you in the pub at some point or something like that, because it was quite obvious that we recognized each other. And that's quite— and I still have— I still see her now because the kids are still in the same in the same football team, but I did get the email from the wellbeing service saying, we're aware that this has happened. By the way, she won't ever— well, she actually came from her, but she can't approach me, she can't discuss anything, and that we have to actually— she goes, I can't be your friend, I can't actually engage too much with you. It was a bit of a surprise to see you there, and it would have been weird not to have said hello, which was absolutely fine. Um, but it's It's quite an interesting situation, and I quite often have dropped her kids off because we all club together, and so it's an interesting situation, but she's laid the boundaries down and she said, this is the situation, I can't engage with you. I know that you occasionally speak to my ex-husband and he sometimes asks you for a lift back, which is fine, but you know— It can be very, very awkward. I, when I— when I used to live somewhere else, it was quite a small community, and quite frequently I'd bump into clients in the supermarket and places like that. And it is— it can be really awkward for the client. But I also used to cover these kind of scenarios in the very first session. So I'll talk with my clients about what would happen if we did bump into each other, and the fact that I won't I won't say hello unless they say hello to me. So it's not that I'm ignoring them or being rude, it's just to protect their confidentiality. It is hard because, I mean, the email itself was quite abrupt and I was a bit, oh, at first, but then I thought, well, she's got to be. But likewise, our kids get on really well and it was just one of those situations and I just said, listen, I am totally fine. I talk about having therapy on international radio, so I think people know I've had therapy. So I think we're in a slightly easier situation, and my kids know I've had therapy, so don't worry about it so much. But I will— you know, I'm quite chatty, so just— I will try my best to not kind of encroach. Yeah, yeah, no, it's a really tricky situation, and I don't think it— I don't think you really realize what it feels like or what it can be like until you experience that. You know, that there's somebody that you offload to and you tell them your whole story, life story, in ways that you have never told it before. And then you bump into them at a party. What do you do? They just know too much. Well, the thing as well is that sometimes you don't recognize your therapist in a different scenario. It's a bit like, you know, somebody who used to be your neighbor 10 years ago, unless you actually saw them on that street, you probably wouldn't recognize where you you know them from as well. And sometimes there's that situation like, I know that person, and they, they probably know more. I mean, I know I'm terrible at kind of recognizing people sometimes. Um, but yeah, there are those situations, and you, you discuss in detail, you know, why these safeguarding measures are in place, which it is helpful. And I think so many people going to therapy not knowing what to expect and it can be quite daunting. Knowledge is power, isn't it? Oh, it is, absolutely. And if you know what it is that you, you expect, you can get so much more out of therapy. Absolutely. It would take sessions sometimes for, for clients who didn't know anything about therapy to actually begin to understand what it was that we were trying to do, trying to achieve. So Yeah, that was one of the reasons why I wanted to write the book, because I knew that so many more people would get so much more out of their, not just financial investment, because some, I mean, thankfully we're getting more and more services made available in the UK, but also their emotional investment, because we invest so much emotion into what it is that we hope to achieve in a therapeutic situation. So working with clients who came in and they didn't quite know what it was we were going to be talking about and how it was going to happen and so on, I really felt for them because we had to start from, you know, from scratch in a way that we wouldn't have needed to if they knew that they would come to therapy and the therapist perhaps initially would lead a little bit until they got used to the kind of conversation that we would have. That in itself would have been so valuable to those clients. Well, do you know what, it's that question, the most important question that I didn't think of before I went to my first therapy session. When you point out the therapist is going to say to you, what do you want out of therapy? Yeah. And if you don't think about that beforehand, you might come up with something just to give an answer, and you know, that's going to be quite fruitless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you say, it's common sense, but it's only common sense when we know about it. Quite, yeah. And I was reading about the bit where you say, you know, to write down what you've experienced that week is a bit of a reminder, something to look back on as well. And that's actually the basis of a book that I'm writing that's called 20 Weeks, which looks at the 20 weeks where we've discussed in theory different, um, different issues on different weeks, or we kind of progressed further. And I love reading back to myself, and kind of it helps because therapy is a conduit to developing ourselves and for understanding ourselves, and that doesn't stop when the therapy stops. No, absolutely. And you know, I, I love journals. I really— I like you, I, I I love looking back in all my notebooks that I have and remembering what it was that life was like back then and how I experienced things. So, I mean, the kind of things that I write in my notebooks is about my personal journey, so emotions and thoughts and stuff like that. So it's a little bit more than just whether the sun was shining or not. And it's so interesting to look back and see how far I've come along the way, you know, whether it's through therapy or just through life in general, because it's not just in therapy that we develop, it's through life experiences. So like we said in the beginning, we can't stand still, you know, we're never sorted, we are a work in progress. So just to have a running commentary on what I find quite interesting. Yeah, what I found is that there's a lot we have to process, which you talk about in the book, that when you have a session, that it sometimes, you know, a week's not long enough to process and you need to take a break from the therapy. And part of anxiety and depression and the overwhelming nature of it is what's going on in our brains, and we can't, you know, we can't seem to compartmentalize it, and it can be quite over— well, overwhelming, overpowering. And I found the greatest tool is to write it down. If you can't kind of get your brain to function and to process. Write down what's going on, and then you can kind of order your thoughts somewhat more. It's perfect to do, um, just before you go to bed, because sometimes we can't sleep, and insomnia is, you know, based around not being able to stop the thoughts whirling round and round. You write those thoughts down, you don't need to keep hold of them because you know that you've written them down. You can go back to them at any point, and your brain goes, "Oh, we can relax." I don't need to worry about this. And there might have been something that's happened in therapy, whether you're currently in therapy or even if it happened a couple of years ago, that you suddenly have one of those lightbulb moments when you go, wow, that's why I do that. And if you don't write that down, it's going to be circling in your brain and driving you a little bit crazy if you don't try and reason with it and journal it. You know, nobody has to read it. It doesn't have to make sense. Sometimes it's like, I don't want to use the term, but a brain dump. Yeah, I think that's exactly the point, Hazel. It doesn't, it really does not have to make sense. It can be like you say, just a brain dump. And I think that's what stops a lot of people from writing their thoughts down, thinking that it has to make some kind of sense. And it really doesn't. It's just the words, just getting it out there on the page. Or even doing the spider diagram. I've enjoyed those in the past, even when just having a bit of a glass of wine or whatnot after a therapy session. And I've written down and thought, right, today we talked about my dad and his death, and I've kind of just done little things, done little lines off saying, oh, we talked about this, and this is, you know, just, you know, you can do it in any way you choose fit. And funnily enough, we did actually discuss, you know, what you should do at the end of each therapy session, you know, do you rush back to work, do you go and have a walk, do you go and do this, that, and whatever, and that's quite important. And I committed to the whole 20 weeks of making sure I didn't work that day so I could go for a walk or go to a café and sit and read a book and whatnot. And I found that really helped because otherwise you don't have time to digest what's going on if you, if you don't provide yourself with the tools and me and the space to do so. Yeah, and you know, another thing is that if you go straight back into work or family life, it can be— it can feel quite violating to walk straight out of therapy, especially if it's been a heavy-duty session emotionally. You walk straight out of therapy and into your normal life, and it can kind of hit you hard because you haven't had that time to digest and just transform back into what life is outside of therapy. It's really important that that space between therapy and life— because it's not your therapist's job to sort you out, I love air quotes on the radio. It's, you know, you have, you have the work to put in yourself as well, you know. I, I liked the idea of being able to walk for a whole hour because I could actually think through what's going on and to actually process what's happening. Um, you know, you talk about homework, but sometimes, you know, the homework between sessions can just be giving yourself space to think about what's being discussed and to figure out what it means to you. Yeah, yeah. There's so many different things we can do to make sure that therapy will work in the best way possible for us in between the sessions. Those 50 minutes a week or every fortnight even, is not alone going to change our life. It's the bits that we do in between that's going to make at least half the difference to our life. So it's really, you know, the 50 minutes is a catalyst to setting us thinking or feeling or noticing life differently. And it's in that point that we're going to change what we do with the space in between the sessions. Well, just thinking about what's happening at the moment where a lot of people are having to have therapy over Zoom and Skype. Yeah. And so they don't have the ability to go for that walk, to have the headspace, and they don't have, you know, they've got to quite often hit the ground running and go back to homeschooling the kids, or it's very hard to process in the space where you constantly live. You kind of need to separate yourself, and people aren't having that. What hints and tips could you give to our listeners who are thinking, yeah, that's not possible for me right now? Yeah, no, I know. And the same hint as I give to people who struggle with family Christmases, actually, because sometimes you can't get away from them either. So there's always the toilet, you know, the— get into the toilet just for 10 minutes and sit down and just gather thoughts and let things settle that perhaps has been breaked up a bit in therapy. 10 minutes in the toilet can do wonders. If it is that you can get out, if you have a garden, into the garden and at this time of year have a look at the spring bulbs coming up or something that takes you into being more grounded, for example. And actually talking about being grounded, one thing that I learned as a child actually, was to just stand and imagine green roots growing out from the bottom of my feet, the soles of my feet, and reaching into the earth. And that alone really made a difference to me, to my little head that was quite anxious at the time, because it grounded me. It just put me in that moment right here, right now. So anything— Yeah, anything that can put us in that moment of right here, right now works. So it's really finding out what works best for us. Rather ridiculously, what I do sometimes when I just need to process something, maybe it's just something that I realize from past therapy or have come across a particular situation, because I've got two boys and they're 11 and 14 and we're all quite, you know, we're all on top of each other all the time. If I want I've got some time on my own, I tell them that I've just bought some new underwear and I'm trying it on, and then, 'Ew, we don't want to go in mum's room.' Oh, excellent. Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, being a psychosexual therapist, I've worked with many couples with young kids, and, you know, one of the things that suffers is intimacy in many couples with young kids. And learn— teaching your children that your bedroom is your private domain and you need time in there on your own occasionally is really tricky because you don't want to exclude your kids from, from your life, but at the same time they do need to recognize that you need space every now and again, and you need to allow them to have their space every now and again. So it's mutual respect then. Yeah, we are kind of dealing with that at the moment, especially with the ages of my children, where we all want our own space but also You have to keep check of how much space they can get, especially at the ages of, you know, 14. It's a tricky age, especially in lockdown where they're all, you know, there's some pretty crazy things going on for everybody. Yeah, so I think with teenagers, certainly with the parents that I worked with, it very much was a matter of looking at teaching the parents to look at consequences with their children. So if it was that they had too much time on their own and they were not engaging with the family, for example, then what were the consequences of that? And this feeling of being left out and not being included in the family unit suddenly became real for their teenagers. So yeah, I mean, I think talking is definitely— but you know what, when we have younger children, we decide what they do. And they usually, or well, maybe most of the time, follow what it is that we say. Then our kids go into teenagers and then no longer a matter of us deciding for them. We as parents have to then start teaching them how to make their own decisions and teaching them about consequences. And once they've got that idea and once they've got the knowledge of what that means for them, usually they're pretty good at going with it and pretty good at making up their mind about what is a good thing to do and what is not such a good thing to do. Well, I think the best advice there is to have open discussions rather than, "You must do this." It's more a case of, "How can we find a way that we can all achieve this?" Yeah. I find it so much easier to get a positive response when it's more of a discussion than and demand. Yes, it is. Yeah, as long as we also are willing to allow our kids to make their own mistakes, even though we know they're going to go wrong, they do need to be allowed to make little mistakes, and then we can sit down and talk about what they learnt from that and what the consequences were of their actions and stuff like that, you know. Great advice. Now, something that I ask all of my guests on Get Booked here at Women's and Men's Radio Station is, what would be your 3 top tips on mental health and mental well-being? Absolutely anything. 3 top tips? Mm-hmm. Oh, right now, um, be easy on yourself. Ease up a bit. You know, we are not going to achieve everything that we set out to achieve. At the moment because there's so many demands on us. So easing up on ourselves, I think, is a must. And, you know, pat ourselves on the back a bit more, not just in lockdown, but in general. We tend to not be so willing to look at our achievements and how well we've done. I think that could really, really help a lot. So we tend to look at more what it is that we haven't done and what it is we haven't achieved and how we should have done this, that and the other. No, forget that. We've done enough. So recognizing that we are enough is, ah, it's just enormous for a lot of people. So yeah, I mean, those are the three things, I guess. Is that three things? I mean, I could talk all day about this kind of thing. I think we've been coming out with tips all the way through for the last 50-odd minutes. No, it's brilliant. Do you know what? We're so happy to compliment other people and how well they are doing, and to focus on the negative, and I just think you've just got to retrain your mindset that, you know, think about the positive things and what you have achieved over the last year. I had a birthday just a few days ago, and everyone's like, "Oh, poor you, you're having a lockdown birthday," and I was like, "Are you kidding me?" It's one of the best birthdays I've had in ages, right? Everybody has gone out of their way to like send me lovely things that they probably wouldn't normally do because they'd be like, oh, well, let's try and meet up in the pub in the next few days or the next few weeks or something like that. And people know it's not going to happen. I've had people, you know, who I've not spoken to for 20-odd years going, happy birthday, Hazel, how are you? We keep on seeing the kids on Facebook, blah blah blah. And it's just people have made more more of an effort. And, you know, it was— I used to hate my birthdays, and I honestly think it's one of the best birthdays I've ever made. You know, as a family, we have made a decision now that once lockdown is over and once we get to the point where we can actually all be in the same house together, we're going to have one massive birthday for everybody. And it's, it's just going to be lovely because we've got 4 kids between us and they've got partners. So it's going to be a houseful and it's going to be Christmas, all our birthdays and Easter, everything in one big weekend splash out. Oh, that's going to be a hell of a hangover, Karen. Oh yeah, but isn't it going to be wonderful? Oh, I can't wait. Do you know what? That's one of the things I miss, cooking for people and having people in the garden. I couldn't do it more. Yeah, it's one of those things, you know, to have that joy of providing a little bit of fun or space or special conversation for friends and loved ones. It's something special. Something that we, we often do as, as a group around here is every Monday we used to always meet. There'll be a good 6 of us with 6 dogs, and we'd spend an hour walking up to what's called the Shot Tower. It's about a 5K walk, and for about 45 minutes an hour, we basically just talk incessantly and air our grievances with family, friends, whatever's going on in our head. And then we all head to work, and we're done by, you know, 10 o'clock. So it's predominantly people who either don't work on Mondays or work from home and can start a little bit later. And we've missed this so much. So many of us are chatting on WhatsApp because it's kind of a form of therapy. It's just, as I said, like a brain dump, you know, we just kind of get everything out and then we get on with it. And that's what I've missed as well, because you don't realize, you know, meeting up with your friends isn't just about eating and gossiping and, you know, shooting the breeze. It's that contact and just being able to air some things so we don't take it, you know, problem shared is a problem halved, isn't it? I think we've really realised that in this third lockdown, just what it is that we're missing. I've noticed a distinct lack of communication from some people on WhatsApp, for example, and you contact them and They've kind of fallen out of the little groups, not fallen out with anybody, but they're just not doing it so much anymore. So I think people are getting a bit lackluster with this kind of communication. They want the real stuff. They want the physical stuff. You know, they're done with it. They're like, hmm. Yeah, they want the hugs. They want the smiley faces. They want the connection, the eye-to-eye connection, and not just a flat screen in in front of your face through Zoom or whatever, but the real 3D connection, the whole lot. Well, what I absolutely love about this show is that, especially when we used to do it in the studio back when we were allowed to travel and be in confined spaces, is I'd be able to say— it would be a different interview because I would be able to read your response and I would be able to see if you were nervous or stuck, or you could see You know, sometimes you can, you can get a different rapport. You can see where the, where the humour can go and whatnot. And we're missing out on that. But at the same time, you know, once a week I get to have a full-blown, fantastic mental health, mental wellbeing, book-related conversation. And I feel so lucky. And I think it's probably one of my saving graces throughout the lockdown as well, that I get to actually do this. And chat to authors like yourself. I do not take it for granted in any way, shape, or form. And I hope that people that are listening to these interviews, you know, get nearly as much out of it as I do, because it's a proper conversation. And yes, I'd love it to be face-to-face, but when you release your next book, it will be. Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully, yeah. The next book is on its way. It's, uh, yeah, it is. What's the next book about? Well, I can't tell just yet. It's still based on my therapeutic experience, but I think that's all I can say at the moment. So I need to point out to our listeners to get on to karinblack.co.uk, which is K-A-R-I-N-B-L-A-K.co.uk, so they can check you out and make sure that they follow you on the various social media bits and bobs and get hold of the book, get it pre-ordered. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, there's lots of articles out there, and it's specifically on Medium. That's where I write my blog posts as well. So yeah, and there's links on my website to all of that. And people can keep in touch with what it is you're talking about. And the other question that I like to ask all of my listeners— sorry, all of my guests— is Who is there out there in the public eye that you think is completely smashing it? They're a good example of— which, you know what, it can be anything. It can be to do with politics, it can do with well-being, or maybe it's just someone just saying, "You talk common sense, I like you." Ah, okay. You know, there's somebody, and now I cannot remember her name. Oh, I'm putting you on the spot. I absolutely admire her courage completely. She's the woman in— is it Saudi Arabia?— who stood up and campaigned for women getting the driving license. Oh yeah, I know who you mean. Shall I Google it? Yeah, yeah. But she got like death threats and everything. Yeah, she's now been put in prison. Yeah. For doing that, for actually standing up for women. It's just, she is a fantastic woman. She really, really is. Yeah. And it's women who are kind of— I appreciate this, so many women would like to stand up and be heard, but there are certain constraints. And we just need to remember that we can only do what we can do, but we can still be inspired by other people as well. Yeah. I'm just— I know that Amnesty International is campaigning for her release. So if anybody wants to support her, then go on to Amnesty International. Honestly, she's, she's an amazing woman and she needs all the support she can get at the moment. Is it Loujain al-Hathloul? Yeah, it rings a bell. Sentenced to 5 years and 8 months in prison and people are trying to campaign to get her out at the moment. She's also, I think there's some kind of 40 lashes in public or something like that included in— Yeah, oh, honestly, it's— But it's people like this that bring these issues to the fore, that then, you know, they can campaign to get this stopped as well. And, you know, hats off, incredible people, well done. That's a great example as well. I did say to you before that this book is incredibly dog-eared because I've got all these pages turned back and I haven't even— we've just been gassing icebagging so much that I haven't even managed to bring up even one of the peeled-back pages yet, and we've got less than a minute to go. Um, well, there's so many. Um, we can always do another interview, you know, after the book is out. Yes. Yeah. Um, yeah, that would be fantastic. I mean, one of the I had pointed— that I wanted to point out, and I'll see if I can squeeze it in in the next minute, is pointing out why quite often with therapies therapists go do it from their own home. I found that interesting because I, in the past, I've had therapy and I've walked through, and if you see a house that's like either really scruffy and you're a bit OCD, then you lose respect for their opinion, or if it's extremely incredibly tidy and you're not into that, then you're going to have preconceived ideas. And that was something that I wanted to bring up, that, you know, the reason— there's so many reasons behind the decisions, um, of, of, you know, why therapists have to operate in a certain way. I mean, seriously, I've got about 30 on here. We are going to have to have another interview, if that's okay. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Of course it is. Yeah, yeah. And we'll have a look when the next book is done. We'll, we'll be talking about that as well. Yeah, of course it's okay. I'd love to come back and talk with you again. And then— and it's just flown by, so I've only got— I've just got time to say thank you so much for joining me today at Women's Radio Station and Men's Radio Station for Get Booked. And you've just— there was so much that we could have discussed, but what people really need to do is go and buy The Essential Companion to Talking Therapy. Yeah, yeah, well, no, thank you for talking with me about it. It's— I find it fascinating still, dipping in and out of it. So yeah, thank you. Well, it's a fantastic book and I thoroughly recommend it to absolutely everybody. Enjoy your day and I'm looking forward to seeing you in the studio when the world opens up again. Oh, that'll be fantastic. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Hazel.