Get Booked – Carolyn Hobdey, All The T**ts I Met Along The Way

Are you feeling anxious? Online Therapy 24/7 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 020 753 5080 and check out our website, onlinetherapy247.com. Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield and this is Get Booked. Here at Get Booked, both women's radio station and men's radio station, we love talking to authors about their new releases and the process of writing, going into detail about the topics covered, the mental health and well-being elements, publishing and writing tips, and giving you the extra special insight into a different book each week. We are opening discussions and offering support via incredible writing community out there. Now, on, on today's show, we'll be talking to the author of the rather interestingly titled book All the Twats I Met Along the Way by Carolyn Hobday. Hi Carolyn, how are you? I'm good, thank you Hazel. Now, um, it's interesting because you've written a book that in theory, uh, we might all get in trouble, uh, saying on air. So from now on, should we call it all the twits? Twits. That's, that's usually, that's usually how we get around it. So we've done it once, that's fine, people get the gist. And I just want to make sure that people can get hold of the book as well, so they're not searching for all the twits, otherwise Roald Dahl's gonna get hit quite a bit. So how are you today? I'm really good, thank you. Really excited that the book's now out. It's, it's sort of been a long process, as you can imagine, to get here. So the fact that the book is now out there and people are able to buy it is really exciting. And I can imagine you've had quite an interesting amount of feedback on the book. I mean, it's, it's surprisingly though, it's very quick and easy to read, but there's so much in there, isn't there? I mean, how you managed to condense it into the amount of pages that you did is quite a feat, isn't it? Yes, that was a bit of a challenge. There's quite a bit that I had to cut out, particularly my corporate background and experience. So there is a little bit of work stuff in there because it was needed to, to make the story make sense of the memoir. So the work stuff will come. I intend to write all about that in a separate book at some point. So yeah, it was trying to keep it condensed, but you're right, I've had some I've had an interesting life. Yes, yes. And, and also, it's— I'm sure for many people that read this book, it's going to ignite feelings of things that have happened in the past, experiences that they've gone through. I do know myself that at one point I had to stop reading it just before I was going to bed because it kind of, you know, whatever you read just before you're about to fall asleep, it kind of infiltrates your dreams, and especially, um, the coercive elements, because I've met my fair share of twits along the way, and it was giving me anxiety dreams. Yeah, I mean, we have put, you know, we have put a trigger warning on the back cover of the version, the sort of printed version. I think you've got an advanced review copy, so obviously it doesn't look exactly like the finished version, but we have put a trigger warning on the COVID just, yeah, just to try and highlight that with people really so that they don't, you know, they know what they're getting into if they decide to pick it up and read it. But it's an important book for people to read because I'm sure there is— I mean, I know that I have been in coercive control, um, relationships, but I think books like yours, they help people to be easier on themselves and to help them understand that it can happen to anyone. And sometimes, I mean, I remember I was reading, um, certain chapters in your book and I was thinking That's it, they reel you in, you fall completely madly in love, and they're so incredibly lovely that you kind of go around to all of your friends saying, I've met this guy, this is amazing, blah blah blah, and then you're kind of embarrassed to go back on what you've been saying, and it's like, it's an intentional tactic, isn't it? Completely. You know, certainly the part that you're referring to obviously is the latter part of the book, sort of the last relationship that I had. And for the first 12 months with that person, it was like, it was like being in a Disney movie. It was so amazing and magical. And, you know, I was swept off my feet and we had all kinds of adventures. And it was as if, you know, he could see inside my brain, you know, everything that I said that I liked or I wanted or I was interested in or, you know, whatever it was. It didn't matter whether, you know, the slightest thing things, and suddenly they would sort of appear in my life, and he'd thought about them and, you know, booked tickets to somewhere, or, you know, all of that stuff. It was completely and utterly magical. So, you know, and prior to that, um, again, you know, when you read the book, I'd had a number of, um, you know, not great relationships, um, in the run-up to that, which is obviously one of the key themes of the book, of that sort of repetitive, um, behavior. But, um, you know, I thought when I got into this relationship that was just everything I'd been waiting for and everything that I deserved, because I've been through all these other tough times. And little did I know that, yeah, it was just all this massive game, manipulative game, to sort of get me reeled in and therefore sort of feeling unable to get back out again. Well, I mean, similar with, I mean, what happened to myself with— have you— do you watch Coronation Street? You're a northerner, so— I'm not. I am in the north. I'm not a northerner, but I am a Coronation Street fan. Very much so. So you're probably going to talk about the storyline that they've— Yeah, and even one of my friends who, we, you know, we both sort of are secret Coronation Street fans, and yet she would sometimes send me messages and go, how is this for you watching that? Because, and I love the fact that they've been covering it on the TV. I think it was so important to— the way that they did it sent chills down my spine, but it was unbelievably accurate. Yes, and I think that what I loved, because so often in soap, you know, or in any drama thing, they sort of, they cover a topic, and they cover some amazing topics to be fair, but what I absolutely loved was how they have played the long game. With this storyline, because I think that's the whole point. It's, um, for me, it is like that sort of behaviour is like a dripping tap. And, you know, if you let a tap drip, say, onto concrete, it will take a really long time before it starts to actually erode that concrete, or you actually are able to see the erosion. Um, and that's what coercive control is like. And I love, love, love the fact that Coronation Street played the long game with the story because they showed that dripping tap effect of that gradual corroding of her sanity, basically, of her confidence, you know, of other people's belief in her. I thought it was superbly well done. And I mean, I unfortunately, it's on in the evening, it got to a stage again, as with your book, that I had to catch up on Corrie the next day so it wasn't too close to going to bed because Two of the main things that happened to you and happened, um, on Coronation Street and happened to myself is that we're completely bowled over with this fantastic relationship. So when something a little bit suspect happens, you think, oh, but it's just one thing, look how amazing it's been. It's like a weighing up exercise. And then they always bring in some sort of sympathy element. Oh, this happened when I was a kid, or so-and-so's treated me like this. So then again, when more rather alarming events happen, you think, oh, but, you know, I just feel sorry for him. And they work on the sympathy element. And it's kind of— it's like a roller coaster of emotions that you actually become exhausted. And you're intentionally made to feel exhausted by— it's incredible. Oh, wait a minute, you know, how do I weigh up whether I'm just being unreasonable? And then they use the whole kind of guilt element of this happened. Are you trying to do this to me as well? And as As you said, the drip feeding, you then realize that you've let so much kind of pass and be allowed to happen that it kind of becomes the norm. And that's the whole process, isn't it? It totally is. And, and you're right, you know, small incidents on their own, and I think that's what makes it so hard to explain it to anyone else because one incident on its own, you can explain it away and sort of go, well, you know, they were having a bad day, or maybe I was having a bad day, or maybe I didn't handle that very well, or, you know, and, and the individual incidents don't seem like very much, but it's when they're all added together and it is that sort of drip feeding over a long period of time that, you know, like I said, it goes from a dripping tap and suddenly you realize you're drowning. Because there's so much water. And I just think that it is that game of, you know, like you say, you can explain away, and they can, you know, they're amazing at doing that. Well, you know, this has happened, or that happened. Like you say, I've had this in my childhood, you know, and, you know, my experience, you know, the individual concern was immensely damaged. And, you know, you just like you say, you feel really sorry for them. And me being me, and I've realized over the last few years that I think, you know, I'm what would typically be described as an empath. So, you know, I feel things very deeply, I care about people very deeply, I feel their emotions very much. So I completely got sucked into that, oh my God, you've had such a difficult, tough time, and I want to be the person that makes life good for you. It's, yeah, it's a minefield, isn't it? Because I mean, I've definitely been described as an empath as well, and you kind of, you, you know that people who are not necessarily empaths, they're the people that they first go for, and they pick on their supposedly hard facade as a reason to exclude them from your life. Wow, they— I can't believe they just said that to you. Wow, do they not like you? And then they try and get rid of those people who threaten their existence? Yeah, very much so, because I found that, you know, comments were made about my parents, my mother in particular. And I think again, that attempting to sideline— and what was really interesting with my situation, so, you know, I am a Southerner. I live— I was living in the North, as I do now. So already there was kind of that advantage for this person that I was a long way away from my family. And what was really interesting though is then when I look back at this person's other previous relationships, they also made a point of picking somebody or moving somebody away from their family. And so clearly this sort of isolating somebody, you know, pattern of behavior was something that they did, which I just didn't even think about to start with. It was only sort of after the event I thought, hang on a minute, that person, like, you moved them away from that family, and that person actually was in a different country to where their family was. And, and I think, you know, then it became about my friends, you know, trying to move me to a location that took me further away from my job and took me further away from my friends and made it harder for me to see those people. And it was really only the power of those relationships that I had that I would see those friends regularly, but there was lots of fuss made whenever I saw my friends, you know, whenever I booked a weekend away to like meet my sister and some friends and we'd go away, there was always some crisis that happened either the day before or on the day that, you know, I remember a couple of times going away for weekends and, well, one in particular that sort of sits with me that I drove from the North all the way to the Midlands and I cried the entire way there because I felt so bad that I'd left him behind with sort of the latest crisis, um, and I was just made to feel terrible for doing that, um, and it was all designed to make sure that I didn't enjoy myself and therefore I probably wouldn't do it again. Oh yeah, I mean, it's— the patterns are incredible, um, but the thing is, admitting that you're a victim of coercive control holds so many issues within itself at a time when you're already shamed and low and isolated. Um, it's, it's incredibly dangerous. But, you know, you get stuck into a situation where right at the beginning, as you said, it's like, it's like a Disney movie, you know. You're so incredibly in love. And we know that at the beginning of any relationship where you're madly in love, you know, you excuse and allow so much more, and you're blinded to the reality as well. Yeah, and I think that, um, since then, you know, I was listening to something once where somebody said, you know, the beginning of a relationship is like concrete. And, you know, because, you know, how you form it, you know, you have a very short amount of time to form it whilst it's kind of wet, and, you know, and you're able to do something with it. And whatever then you accept whilst it's in that wet state, whilst setting, you know, once it's set, that's it. You know, with concrete, you can't do anything with it once it's set. You know, it's cast and that's it. And I think that's it for me. It's a great analogy because whatever we accept whilst that concrete is still wet and it's setting, we are then stuck with once it's set. And I think that's the thing at the beginning, like you say, you're carried away from it and it's all amazing and absolutely what got played on for me. And I think it's very typical for other people is, you know, this person was going to fix all the bad stuff that had happened to me in the past. You know, they really get under your skin. They get you to talk about, you know, like I talked about the relationships I've had in the past and what I've been through and all those kind of things. And it was— he was then able to promise this dream of how it wasn't going to be like that with him. And he used all the right words and phrases to really kind of of, you know, draw me in. And you're right, whilst that concrete was setting, you know, there was one incident in particular where, you know, that I talk about in the book, where, you know, it was like, oh, something like not so great happened, and it was a bit of a like, oh, uh, that's not great. But I completely just got over it and kind of forgave it because all of this other stuff was amazing. And then the concrete set, and that was it, and he knew that I would overlook those kind of incidents. Well, what's that great saying? Um, be careful what you tolerate, you're teaching people how to treat you. Yeah, completely, completely. And it had to be a massive lesson for me going forward. I've had to hugely change that and, and that attitude. And, and so much of it for me, you know, the— again, the underlying theme of my book, right from from the outset, as you, you will know, is all about that sense of self-worth and valuing yourself. And that was my issue, is that I didn't place a value on myself, and I placed way, way too much value on other people and what they could bring to me in order to make me happy, because I wasn't happy in myself. And, um, yeah, exactly. So I, I just, you know, all through my life, I really, you know, different ways I was teaching people, um, that I wasn't valuable, because I didn't feel like I was, and therefore other people could treat me accordingly. And I think I then got to that situation having not learned from the other things and the other twits I've met along the way, you know. And I got to that situation, and it was catastrophic then what that person was allowed to do. But what is valuable, Carolyn, is because of what you've gone through, you are able to put it in this book and help other people, especially with all the other twits you've met along the way. You know, if we don't experience— can you imagine if we led a perfect life? We wouldn't learn anything. Or everything that does possibly go wrong in our lives, we can learn from it and hopefully help other people. Yes, and I— the thing that was really important to me in writing the book is I absolutely in no way, shape, or form wanted to come across as a victim because I don't feel like a victim. And, you know, sometimes you do have to use you know, the sort of accepted terminologies, you know, I was a victim of. And I, you know, so sometimes that is the way that I would still explain it and use that terminology. But I do not feel like a victim. I have not written this book in any way, shape, or form with any pity. You know, you've read it, you will understand that there are occasions in that book when I am also one of the twits. You know, the point of writing it is to say, you know, I've made mistakes, I've failed, I've, you know, made stupid decisions, and I wanted to write a book that explained all of that, you know, the frailty of the human condition, the fact that we're fallible, you know, we don't have these perfect lives. And I'll be honest, you know, I've met a lot of people, you know, I'm a— I used to work in human resources. I got to a very senior level in some very big organizations doing that. So I have met hundreds and thousands of people through the course of my work, and I can absolutely categorically say I've never ever met anyone that's had a perfect life, ever. Oh, if they have, they're lying. Yes. So that's why for me, like, the book is for anyone who has lived a life, you know. Um, yes, I get that the title would sort of suggest that it's, you know, more aimed at a female audience, you know. Obviously, you know, I am a woman and it is about my experiences, but this book's for anybody that's, you know, is an adult, is still trying to learn how to be an adult well, you know, understands that life is messy, you know, has failed and fallen over and had to pick themselves up and has done stupid stuff or been sucked in, you know, to a bad relationship. You know, that doesn't matter if you're male or female. It's really just about saying, look, here it is, guys, because, you know, we've all done this stupid stuff. And I think, you know, rather than expressing our kind of Instagram, Facebook filtered lovely lives and lovely selves, you know, here we go, here's what it's really like to be a human being. And although you just said that it's aimed at women, I do think it would be helpful for men to read it. And do you know what, I know a lot of men who, they do like reading about what's happened and kind of understanding different perspectives. But there are men out there that are saying, come on guys, be better, you're really creating a bad name for us. Because, you know, men are different and they do have different ways of dealing with things, just like in the same way that women have certain issues as well and certain ways of dealing with things that men don't understand. The more we read each other's— about each other's lives and what's happened, we can understand more, and then we can look out for each other a bit more as well. I, I couldn't agree more. I, I think, um, so one of the, one of the themes that comes up in the book is, um, the fact that, um, I discovered in my early 30s whilst trying for a baby, that I'd actually already gone through the menopause. And when we trace stuff back, my menopause actually started when I was around about the age of 24. So I had no idea I'd gone through it. I'd had a horrific time, you know, sort of medically, but it had never been spotted. So, and actually one of the topics, you know, certainly now because I'm starting to get into that age where, you know, it's kind of probably assumed that I will be going into the menopause soon, which is interesting because I've obviously been through it already. But, um, I talk about this exact topic in relation to the menopause, that I don't think we talk about it enough as women, um, by any stretch. I think that's getting better, but I think it's not a topic that we spend enough time talking about and therefore understanding, and again eliminating the taboos and the embarrassment around that. But I totally, totally, in everything I've done around that, been an advocate of we need to talk to men about it. Because we can't, as women, complain that men don't get it and don't understand if we're not prepared to communicate with them about it and discuss it. And yes, I get that at the outset it might be embarrassing and awkward and all of those things, but we have to get over it because we have to bring the men with us on the journey if they're going to better understand how to treat us better, if they're going to better understand what we're going through, you know, and we're just going to have better relationships. And that's not about intimate relationships. That's if, you know, you've got, you know, men and women that work together, you've got brothers and sisters, you've got, you know, whoever the male and female relationships are that you have in your life. If we just communicate with each other, and like I said, take each other on the journey of how we think and feel about this stuff, we'll generate that better understanding., and it will start to eliminate the issues. And you're right, with, with, you know, coercive control, domestic abuse, whatever those things are, we completely need to engage men in that, because obviously men suffer from this stuff too. You know, there's lots of men— there's men I've spoken to who suffer, you know, from, from domestic abuse themselves. And again, they find it even more embarrassing and shameful to talk about because they're meant to be, you know, the sort of more macho one, the stronger one, you know, however you want to put it. And we have to get these topics out in the open and talk not as two opposing sides. We have to talk like a united team. And also, you know, if they— if we don't understand what's going on, if a man doesn't understand when his partner's going through menopause, he's not going to understand why she's extremely tired or profusely sweating or just being a bit you know, upset or funny or whatever, and they might actually think it's something to do with them. So just try and understand each other a bit more, and we can all just, you know, it's definitely a lot easier for everybody, isn't it? Completely. And those, those guys as well will be having a really hard time. They'll be completely confused by this kind of Tasmanian devil that turns up in life every now and again. And I think the thing is, for me, is that, you know, the menopause is just the opposite end of puberty. You know, it's just reversal of that. And, and when teenagers go through puberty, which, you know, again, um, statistically, you know, puberty lasts a couple of years. The menopause can last 10 years. Oh, don't say that. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the menopause has the potential to be 5 times as long as puberty. Now, that doesn't happen in every case, and everyone is different, and there's a— I think it's 34 different potential symptoms of menopause. So that's how complicated it is as an issue to, to sort of deal with in the first place, and also then sort articulate and explain to somebody else. But when teenagers go through puberty, we kind of make allowances for that, don't we? It's like, oh, they've slammed their door because, you know, they're going through puberty. We all sort of roll our eyes a bit or hunker down or, you know, trying to soothe them through it or whatever it is. But then we do this, we have this sort of thing at the other end of our lives where, you know, we're going through the reversal of it, like I said, which can last up to 5 times as long. And yet we don't talk about it, we don't really make any allowances for it, and yet there'll be women all over the place who, like you said, are having a bit of a strop because their hormones are going all over the place, you know, struggling with brain fog, can't really articulate their emotions and why they feel like they do, um, and yet we don't talk about it when we don't make the allowances. Well, interestingly, we do have a show here at Women's Radio Station. It's run by Meg Matthews and it's called Meg's Menopause, and she does do that every week. She talks about menopause and fantastic show with some incredible guests that we get on there, and I love the work that she does. Um, but you know what, women are just assumed to get on with things a little bit more. And unfortunately, especially with people like yourself who have quite, um, a strong facade where, you know, especially with the way that your parents, um, supported or didn't support with the diagnosis, and you kind of just tried to get on with things yourself, and sometimes you actually want people to want to help you, not for you to have to really go out there and search for someone to help you and support you. And I think, um, I, I think that's really true. I think, however, one of the things that I have again learned on my sort of transformational journey out, um, sort of my catastrophic implosion of my life back in 2018, is, you know, we just have to accept that we can't just expect other people to get us. We can't expect other people to just see what our needs are. You know, everybody has their own stuff going on to start with, but we have to just— I read somewhere that somebody called it about this illusion of transparency, and I think it's a fantastic sort of term and concept that we have this illusion of transparency, that if we just sort of walk around and be, that other people will just magically understand what's going on for us. And we have to get past that point of just thinking, well, why, why isn't anybody asking me? Why isn't anybody seeing my suffering? And it's like, they don't, they just won't. And we have to get better at going and asking, you know, and, and certainly if people do come along and go, oh, you know, are you okay? You know, don't just go, 'Yeah, I'm alright,' and then expect them to sort of ask again and ask again so they chip away until you sort of feel like you can open up. We have to start building that courage to go, 'Well, you know what, actually, thank you so much for asking, because actually I'm not having a brilliant time at the moment.' And it isn't about saying we just have this sort of massive, you know, outpouring of our emotions all of the time, but actually, if we need help, we have got to get better. Asking people for it, and it is actually a skill. You know, we've got to develop that skill, and I think we should be developing that skill, you know, from, you know, with our, with our children. You know, we need to be getting them better at it, of going, actually, it's completely okay to ask for help. It's actually a sign of strength to go, I recognize that I'm not doing great at this, and I, you know, I don't want to fail, so, you know, I'm asking for other people to try and get on board and help me. But let's try and get better at that skill of asking for help and not just sit there and go, well, everybody should just be able to see it. You know what, rather ironically, when I was going through quite a tough time with an ex, I had to keep ridiculously strong to hide it from my children, which then spilled over into, you know, my friendship groups and my family as well, because it's very hard to switch your masks. But you do need to find the time and a way of doing it. And likewise, You know, if you knew that your friend was going through something, you actually want to help, and you actually feel quite, uh, it can even hurt sometimes if you're not asked to help your friend when they're going through a tough time. So it's not always about, oh, I don't want to put them under this pressure, oh, I don't want to have to be that person that's always dumping stuff at their door. You know, there is a nice balance, but it's not always just about us. Other people want to help you too, and it's actually— people would prefer to help rather than you suffer in silence. And we need to remember it's not always just about what we are trying to protect other people from. It's more hurtful to protect other people so much that they are left in the dark when they'd want to help. Yeah, I— that's a really, really good point. And you know what, I had that sort of wake-up call. So I've got a really good friend of mine that, again, when I was going through a really hard time, she's kind of like, she's a really wise friend. She's a little bit like, I always sort of say that she's a bit like my mummy in the north of the UK. So, you know, my mummy lives in the south, and this is kind of my mummy in the north. And she was amazing when I went through my tough time. And we would, you know, we would go out together and we'd go out for a walk walk, or, you know, go and get a cup of tea. And there were times when I would just, you know, you know, be sobbing and sharing my stuff. And then gradually, obviously, things got better, and, you know, and I started to put the pieces of my life back together. But it really brought it home to me the one day that we'd been somewhere, and I sent her a text afterwards, and I said, you know, thank you so much for that. You know, you— I appreciate so much what it is you do for me. And I got this text message back. She said, said, but you don't realize how much you do for me, that that ability to talk, um, you know, yeah. And, and her, her own family, her own daughter lives some distance away, so she doesn't see her all the time. And I suddenly realized that actually this was like a reciprocal, um, relationship. I thought that I was just sort of taking from her and getting loads out of it, but the fact, you know, she lives on her own, and the fact that, you know, we were going faces. We will laugh, you know, we'll talk about all sorts of stuff, you know, and that contact and whatever. And I realized I was, I was actually bringing as much to her as she was to me. And I thought, wow, yeah, it's that. It isn't just one way. I'm not just taking here. And I think that's, that's kind of highlighted in your book as well, the, the wonder of a really good friendship. You can fall out, but you can be honest and you can work things back around again. And just to know what's important to you and to know, you know, what is important in terms of who you are as well, and what's the right kind of selfishness to try and attain for. Um, I'm very conscious about how much we talk about that. I don't want to give too much away of, of the book, but there are many relationships that you've been in where, you know, you've made mistakes too, and patterns have repeated themselves, and And sometimes we need a bit of an awakening, don't we? And sometimes you need a really— well, something quite rubbish to happen for us to really sit down and take stock and go, what am I doing? What am I doing wrong? What do I need to change? You know, it's that saying, isn't it? If you keep on doing the same things, you're never going to get a different result, are you? Yeah, completely. It is, you know, it's the definition of insanity, isn't it? That bit. Exactly. And, you know, what comes up through the book is, like you say, that repetition. And, you know, how in very different relationships— again, I don't want people to think, well, it's just, you know, like a Groundhog Day of reading the same stuff. You know, the relationships I had were very, very different, but that sort of corrosiveness, that toxic stuff, the similar themes, yeah, that those sort of things come, come out. And it is— it was just the fact that I didn't flippin' learn, you know. And I hear you Yeah, I didn't think I was worthy of anything different, and that's the bit that I wasn't paying attention to, you know, I was not paying attention, I was just burying myself in working really hard, studying really hard, and like you say, just getting on with doing the do, you know, my best friend who does appear in the book, she always says, oh my God, I want you to start being a human being, not a human doing, because I just would do all the time, and a lot of it was about sort of drowning that other stuff out. And it was, and it depends sort of what you believe in, and personally I'm not religious, but I do, I'm a great believer in fate. I do have this sort of belief that the world kind of will conspire to sort of bring you or show you either the people you need or the situations that you need to teach you stuff. And it took that kind of catastrophic implosion, like I said, to then really force me to sit up and take notice and go, okay, right, I've lost everything now, you know, I need to press the reset button. And more than anything else, I had to press the reset button on me. That's where I had to begin. Wow. Um, now there is, there's the question I want to ask without giving too much away about your, your marriage. Now, I want people to read the book and then come back to what we're just about to discuss. Do you— you do still speak to your ex-husband, don't you? We have a fantastic relationship. He is one of my, my best friends. Yeah, we would probably talk, whether it's by text or Zoom or phone, every week. So how does he feel about his part in the book? Very, very good question. It is a very interesting question. So he, I think he probably feels in two different ways, in fairness to him. On the one hand, I have to absolutely say, and I say this in the acknowledgments at the front of the book, he has always, from the moment I met him, been one of my biggest biggest supporters and cheerleaders of just whatever I've done, whether it's been work. I would not have had the career that I had had it not been for him. So he was 11 years older than me, so he was sort of more experienced in life and in business when I met him. So he was a massive sort of coach and mentor in that side of my life. So he's always been a massive cheerleader, and I told him when I was starting to write the book, that I was writing the book, and he was at the time like, "You just go for it." So he— and he has maintained that throughout. He has now read the book. He didn't read the book until after it was printed. And I think he feels, you know, again, he's massively proud of what I've done, because again, the book is about more than just that relationship, and he can see that. He can see that it's like the end-to-end story, that it isn't just about our marriage, and there's lots of other stuff that goes on in the book as well. So I think he sort of sees that, and he sees very much that it's my story. And I guess that's part of the point of the conversation we've had, is I said, look, you have to understand that of course this is my story. I'm telling it in the way that I recollect it, how I felt and experienced it. And you have to sort of read it in that context, in that I'm not trying to explain how you felt or how you experienced it, because that's your story to tell. So I think now, I think he's at the moment, I would say he's sort of processing it. So yes, still really proud, great that I've done it. I think there's some things that they're, that in his own words, picked at some old wounds for him. So I think he's just sort of working through that. But very much the conversation we had was, we've been through worse, and if you read the book, you'll understand sort of the stuff that we went through. And he said, look, it won't change our friendship. It won't, you know, damage or change our relationship now that I've read it. He said, I just need to let some of it settle a little bit and let some of those wounds kind of re-heal themselves that got picked away at. And, you know, we will carry on having the fantastic relationship that we've got. Well, we, you know, as women do like to have a gay best friend, we just don't necessarily want to be married to them, right? No, not necessarily, I think. And talking about writing the book, how did you find the whole publishing process, getting published and touting the book around? Oh goodness, you know, I I thought that the hardest part of writing a book would be sitting down and pouring my heart out and writing the book. How wrong I was. You know, then all the stuff after that, you know, I've never done this before, so having to learn— I described to somebody the other day, it's been a little bit like having to learn to walk again because I've sort of, you know, I've had to learn all of these, this new terminology and these different different skills and how the process fits together. I've had some amazing people around me. I mean, I think that's the really important thing, that, you know, gradually through some incredible people, I've built this network of people that are helping me navigate, um, that process itself. Um, so that's been great. So it's a constant learning curve. And so whilst that's been really tough, I, I love to learn new stuff. I, I think the, the day that we think we have nothing left to learn in life is the day that we need to lie down stop breathing. Um, it's absolutely my view. So it's great that I'm still learning stuff. That makes it sort of quite hard sometimes. I get quite tired, um, because you're sort of taking on this new experience, this new learning all the time. Um, but you know, I've, I've, I've self-published. Um, well, I mean, again, that's, that comes with the whole sort of weight of stuff around it. I've learned that self-publishing isn't really self-publishing. But you know, obviously I've gone to a publisher and they've agreed to take the book on, having taken a look at it, and we've worked through that process together. So it's been a massive learning curve. I have— I've got in place— I started out wanting to write a book and it's turned into a Twits trilogy. So I now have two more in the pipeline that I'm working on and planning. I've learned loads from book one, and you know, I will just translate that into doing things differently and better with Book 2 and then Book 3. Well, I can't wait to receive both of those and get cracking with them. Um, it's— I think the book also, it really focuses on, um, you know, trying to live a fulfilled life, which from what I gather the other two books are going to be, um, about as well. But you know, it's, it's hard to trust and to relearn trust after we've gone through a lot of interesting parts in our life. And, you know, the book isn't just about the men that you've had relationships with. It's, you know, just general twits that you've come across as well. And especially with the process of getting diagnosed and just people who you wanted support from and didn't necessarily get the support from, you know, it kind of encompasses a wide variety twits. It does. And, you know, and I think, I mean, I think at the back end of the book, you know, I say that, you know, twits are after all everywhere, you know. And it is about all of that. And I think that that was, was part of it, you know. I think that there was this sort of catalogue of things that happened, people that let me down. But again, you know, some of that was about me not not speaking up and saying, well, actually, hang on a minute, that's not acceptable. And not sort of finding the courage for that and having the voice for it. And I think that we're often guilty of doing that. And that's so much of the transformation. That's the work that I now do. So the book is just one part of it. But now I'm working with people to try and help them to look at what they want out of life. You know, I have a brand that's called Redefining Selfish, which you touched on just now, that is all about we cannot possibly sort of care for others, give out to other people, if we haven't done the work on ourselves. And it's all about that idea of, you know, you cannot, you cannot save somebody else, you cannot rescue somebody else, if you haven't got your life vest on already. And you know, that's very much my analogy of, you know, putting that life vest— there's a reason, you know, we're told to put our life vest on when we're, you know, to go to the emergency on a plane or on a boat. You know, there's a reason that they do that, because if you're not got oxygen or if you're drowning, then you can't possibly help anybody else around you. And often those people around you are people that you care about. So it's about saying, if I focus on me, if I, If I'm selfish about my self-care, about prioritizing myself, I will be absolutely mentally, physically, emotionally the best version of myself that I can be. And that's all about sort of just improving a little bit all the time. And therefore, I can give that best version of me out to everybody else. And if I care about those other people that are around me, then surely I want to give that best version of myself to them, and not a version that's worn down, fed up, resentful, weary, you know, that, that's, that's not a good version of you. That's not the best version of you to be giving out to the people that you, that you love and you care about. So spend that time. And for me, it's about doing that with no guilt and also with no regret. So one of my other massive sort of hobbyhorses, and what I help people to work on, is living a life that is meaningful to them, a life like you say that has fulfillment in it, and really defining what that means and setting out a plan to do that so that we get to the end of our lives, whenever that may be, at whatever point, um, and we can sit there and say, I've lived a life that has been free from regret. I love that. But that— there's so many people that say, oh, but what is the meaning of life? Well, the meaning of life is making sure that you leave something behind, you leave the world better. Yeah, and also as well, you know, you define what the meaning is, you know, and for me again, some of the terminology I use in my, in my businesses, so in, you know, my Redefining Selfish business and also my Mayday business, you know, it's very much about you as an individual defining what happiness means to you, and happiness is different things to different people, but we very much have that happiness looks like this, or it should look like this, this is what you should be aiming for, this is what is expected of you. And I was living that life and then some in terms of all of those expectations of others and expectations I placed on myself because of it. And I just realized that none of it was making me happy. So I lost everything, I set about rebuilding everything, and I set about putting back in place all of those things that I thought I I should have, you know, the great house, the 2 cars, the 3 holidays a year, the fantastic job, you know, all of that stuff I set about putting back in place. And it was only when I was, you know, right on the brink of sort of completing the last bits of that jigsaw, I just realized that this isn't what makes me happy. And I think we just, you know, and I'm not sitting here going, oh my God, you need to sort of tear up your life and start again and walk away from everything. Not at all., but it is about spending that time and going, is this stuff making me happy? Because so often we think that we should just set about making everybody else happy. You cannot make anybody else happy, they have to do that for themselves, but you certainly can't contribute to their happiness if you are not happy already. Nobody can bring you happiness, it is not a gift that somebody else brings to you, not something that somebody else bestows upon you, it's something that you cultivate and create for yourself. So we have to, have to, have to spend time defining what that happiness is and then going after it. But also reassessing it as well, because what we— what made us happy 10 years ago isn't necessarily going to make us happy now. Life changes, our goals change, people who are around us change, our family dynamic changes. You know, we are a constant work in progress. Just because you wanted something 10, 15, 20 years ago doesn't mean you should still be striving for that now, because because otherwise you're living a false life. Constant kind of— this is what I love about reading, where it helps us to kind of redefine and reassess our lives, and reading about other people's journeys helps us to do that. I know that what I wanted 10 years ago, if I had that now, I don't think I'd be very happy at all. No, and I think, oh my goodness, you know, if 2020, if this last 12 months has taught us anything, it's exactly that. And so much of what was being said, you know, when the pandemic first hit was, you know, people are, oh my God, I just want my life to go back to normal. Flippin' heck, we didn't like that life very much. We were stressed out, we were commuting every day, traveling long distances, you know, traveling further and further in the pursuit of our work and our finances. We weren't getting to spend any time with our family and our friends. You know, we were busy doing stuff all the time and not making time for other people, and then bang, you know, really rapidly, all of that got sort of turned on its head. And, you know, we, we do have to be really careful that we just don't rush back to what normal used to be, because it was a bit pants, actually, for a lot of people. And I think we have to sort of recognize that. So whilst we're sort of desperate for this normal. Oh my God, that normal wasn't that great. So let's spend some time redefining what that normal is going to look like when we go forward. And I— so you're right, you know, our goals, our perspective, things, you know, events happen in our life that sort of shape and change us and change that perspective. And I think more than ever in the last 12 months, we've really been hit by that with a ton of bricks. And that's why I'm really passionate about helping other people to go, "Alright, okay, we've got a moment here where we're taking stock." You know, I've got a process, I've got a 9-step process called the Fathom Framework that I use to help people to work out what it is that they really want and then start putting the actions in place to achieve it. You know, I'm passionate about getting that out there because when it happened to me and I sort of had that, you know, everything fell apart and I had to reassess everything moment, I didn't sort of have— I didn't know where to start. You know, I had to work the sort of, how do I do that, out for myself. And what I've then tried to do in my work now is I've tried to put together, based on absolute out-and-out real lived experience, I've put together that kind of how-to process so that people don't worry about how I go about it and just can concentrate on getting on with it and sort of doing the exercises and working out what it it is that they want, because one of the massive positives out of coronavirus, that, you know, the pandemic, the lockdowns and whatever, because we've got to find the positives in it all, is that opportunity to take stock and go, I actually, I'm going to try and have something different going forward. You're so right. I'm a huge fan of positive attribution. Yes, the pandemic has been horrific in so many different ways, but there was, before this happened, The amount of times I've heard people say, "Oh, I just wish the world could stop for a bit so I can gather my thoughts, maybe get my washing done, defrost my freezer, just kind of get to grips with what's going on, actually reconnect with people." And I mean, ironically, the reconnection is in many different forms. And, you know, there's— we've been able to reassess and rework how we do things. And, you know, I think if you can do anything, just focus on the things that have worked in the last year, not the things that have gone wrong. Yes, things have gone wrong for people, but let's just focus on the positive, and it will really help, just help our mindset, help a positive mindset. There are, there are companies that will probably not reopen their offices, and people will continue to work from home and have, you know, a good 5 or 6 hours extra at home to spend with their families or to focus on their passions, or, you know, it's just we've all had to learn something new. And take what you can from it, take the positive, not the negative. And something I like to do on my Get Booked shows is ask our guests, what 3 tips on well-being and wellness would you you like to offer out to our listeners? Oh yes, um, it's keeping up to just 3 because I have all sorts of things that I like to do. Um, one of the things that I do, um, is I write a gratitude journal every day. And I know that for some people that all sort of seems a bit like woo-woo and whatever, but— and I would definitely have probably been in that camp, um, back before I started doing it. But it's, it's amazing what it does. So, and particularly at the moment because I think there's a lot of sort of darkness. There's literal darkness because of the time of year, but there's sort of darkness in the situation we find ourselves in. So, what a gratitude journal does is it just gets you every day, and I write mine in the morning for the previous day, so I start off the day feeling sort of good and full of gratitude for the things that happen to me, but it's, it gets you to write down all the good things that happen to you that day, and I don't set any limits. Sometimes it might be a sentence, sometimes it might be a page. I know some people advocate, oh, you you need to write at least X number of things. Don't put yourself under that pressure. There's no need. Nobody's judging you. You just write what you write. So write down all the things that are good happening, and it might be you just heard a bird singing. It might be that when the sun came up this morning, it just, you know, put a shot of sunlight onto the wall in your, in your bedroom, and it was just a bit of a beautiful kind of glow. It doesn't matter what it is. You're not sharing it with anybody. You don't have to show it to anybody, so you can write whatever the hell you like. Like, but all those bits of light in the darkness. So that would be my first thing, and do gratitude. One of my massive, massive things that I'm a fan of at the moment, particularly because we are online a lot and there is a lot of negativity around, is unfollow those people who on your social media are just, you know, the, the doom mongers, the energy vampires, whatever you want to call them, the fun sponges. Yeah. Different names for them, particularly mine is the ones that do sad fishing, which is, you know, when they sort of go, I'm feeling really lonely today, and then, oh, I'm feeling really sad, and then they don't say why, and then they just, all they're looking for is people to go, oh my God, what's the matter? I saw that on your book launch party, and I never knew it was called sad fishing, but I love that term, and it's just, oh, I'm so sad today. Oh, what's wrong with you? Oh, I can't say, I'll private message you, darling. Oh my That's just attention-seeking in the worst possible way. You know, if you're having a hard time, absolutely, like I said, tell somebody, ask for help, but don't just sort of randomly go out there to loads of people you don't know on Facebook and just tell them how miserable you are. Just don't. So, you can't always unfollow people on social media, particularly if they're sort of close family and friends, but you can mute them and you have choices about how long you mute for. So, if you're having a particularly tough day and you want to mute everybody, then do that. If you want just an hour out, then just mute for an hour, whatever it is. But I'm a massive fan of just removing that negativity and sort of just attracting the positive vibes only. So that would be my other bit of advice. And my third one, I am hugely, hugely into my exercise. And please, please, please believe me that before sort of all my world fell in, you know, I'd been to the gym like, you know, 3 times in my life. I was not a gym bunny. You know, I was was, you know, I took up boxing at 45 years of age, so, you know, this is all new to me. So I'm not one of these irritating people that's been running marathons since I was 3. You know, I'm not always like fantastic at it, but I give it a good go. It's not necessarily about boxing, or, you know, see, we can't go to the gym at the moment. It's not about doing any of that. Just like put on some of the music you love dance around the room like nobody's watching. If you've got children and they're sort of pent up inside, get them involved in that too. Put on music they love, run up and down the stairs if that's what works for you. If you can get outside, get outside in nature, because nature is proven— 10 to 15 minutes in nature is actually proven to reset you in respect of social media time. So it helps sort of clear the cache, to use the sort of technology term, but clears the cache in your brain after only 10 or 15 minutes. So any form of exercise at all, because the, the positive sort of hormones, the endorphins, all of that stuff that fires off when we do exercise massively, massively helps, and we need that now more than ever. So even if it's indoors, if you jump up and down on the spot, if you skip, it doesn't matter what you do. Do something that makes you laugh, actually. Do some kind of exercise that as well. Amazing. Just do that. I'm a huge fan of the whole Control-Alt-Delete, getting out in nature with my kids as well, especially because at the moment there's very little they can actually do. Um, even their homeschooling is on tech. It's just absolutely everywhere. And I wanted to talk a little bit more in depth about your boxing, but we've stormed through the last hour. We've only got a couple of minutes left. Um, and there is another question I'd like to ask you. Is, is there somebody in the public eye at the moment that you think is smashing it out of the park in just, in terms of just saying the right thing, doing the right thing, or putting the right positive vibes out I have to say, I, on Instagram, I follow a guy called Mark Manson, and he wrote a book which, again, we have to be careful with the title. Oh, I've read it! It's the orange one, isn't it? And it rhymes with book. Yeah, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Duck, let's say. So, but he, I follow him on Instagram. I love the stuff he says. It completely resonates resonates with me, and it's like, oh my God, I wish I'd written that, that Insta post, because it's totally sort of my vibe and whatever. So he talks a whole load of sense. He debunks stuff. He really tells it like it is, and I think that's so important that we just say stuff, you know, straight up, straightforward, because there's lots of sort of, you know, people trying to be clever about stuff, and it's like, no, let's not try and do that. Let's just say it how it is. And he talks about all sorts of stuff. He talks about the world, he talks about relationships, he talks about how we talk about ourselves. He does great book reviews on there and recommendations. So Mark Manson is my— I love it when his Insta posts pop up because you just never quite know what you're gonna get. I've just followed him now because of what you said. Yeah, I love that element of anticipation with him, but he's really straight up and down and I like that. It's very— in fact, most of his Insta posts are in black and white, and I kind of love that because he is sort of like straight up and down, very, very straightforward. I just want to point out to all of our listeners as well that they can pop on to carolinhobday.com and all your bits and pieces are up on there so people can follow you and find out more about you and about your boxing. And you write for a lot of other magazines, don't you, as well? You think you're getting featured left, right, and center, especially with, um, the release of all the Twits I met along the way. Yeah, it's great. I love to write. It's lovely doing sort of articles and features, very much so. So yes, it's great. But yeah, and thank you. If people go along to the website, they can find all sorts of stuff and look at the things that I'm doing. And it'd be great if people could connect on there and, you know, give me feedback. And, you know, yeah, if people want help with courage, confidence, living with no regrets, then, you know, that's the place to me. And finally, are you a huge fan of reading yourself? I am. You know, it's one of those things that I have— I've got a huge bookshelf that's right next to me full of all my books. My first degree that I did was in English literature, so yeah, I do have a passion for books, and I absolutely struggle to ever throw any book away because I just think everything has got its own value. I think they're good for decorating your home anyway. I love displaying all of my books everywhere. Is there anything in particular you've read recently, especially in lockdown, that you've loved? Yeah, there's, I guess, there's a couple of things. There's a book that I love that I do go around recommending to lots of people, actually. It's actually more of a business-y book, if I'm honest, because I do quite like those because they tax my brain but is Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? Fantastic. It's actually written by a guy. Fantastic book, all based on science and research, so it's a really, really good book. So that would be my sort of business book recommendation. And then I love, love, love The Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and the Horse. I don't know if come across that? I have come across it. I haven't read it though, but you think I should? Please, please, please get a copy. It's life wisdom, very simply written by somebody, and it is one of those books actually that's a lovely gift to give. So it's bits of life wisdom and reminders. Again, I follow Charlie Mackesy, I think it is, on Instagram as well, and he posts all the time. But the brilliant work— the artwork in it is beautiful. Beautiful. The messages are really simple, but it's very sort of— it emotionally connects with you because it just reminds you of some of the simple truths of life. And it's lovely. It's a beautiful, beautiful book. Well, thank you so much, Carolyn. Listeners, do all go and get all the twits I met along the way and go and check out carolynhobday.com. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and you've been listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. Everybody have a fantastic day.