Get Booked – Chris McDonald, “A Wash Of Black”

Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield, and this is Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station, a show all about books and writing which focuses on supporting our emotional well-being. And I'm so incredibly lucky to love reading as much as I do and then get to actually chat to the authors that write these books. And, and it's just, it's such an absolute pleasure. Today joining me remotely in the COVID studio, as I like to call it now, is Chris McDonald, the author of A Wash of Black. Just one hell of a debut. A Wash of Black is so intricate and gory, addictive and merciless, and it's set up north. I do love a good old northern romp. Hello Chris. Hello, how are you? I'm all right actually, a little bit sweaty if I'm honest. Where are you? I am in southwest London. I'm in Temby at the minute at my in-law's house and it's pouring down and thundering, so I'm not getting the heat, so I'm really appreciative of this weather at the minute. So, I mean, have you been there long enough that you could jump in the sea a little bit? Yeah, we've been to the beach. I've got two young children, so we've pretty much lived on the beach for the past few days. But yeah, once it gets past 20 degrees, it's not good for me. So I'm happy in the rain. Oh, are you? Yeah, it takes me back home. It rains all the time in Northern Ireland, so it feels like I've gone back without going back. There is that though, isn't there? There's kind of a little bit of security in what you're used to as well. But as Brits, we like to kind of go, oh, you know, We wish the weather was better, and as soon as it gets better, we sit there going, "Oh, it's so hot!" Yeah, when's the storm coming to clear this? Yes, I must remember to bring my cushions in, actually. Anyway, I digress. Thank you for joining me here today at Women's and Men's Radio Station, and you've released your first ever book, A Wash of Black. Yes, in February. Yeah, and you've had quite a lovely response from the writing community, haven't you? Yeah, it's been nice. I sort of wrote it with no, no sort of hope almost. I really wanted a book cover, and I was sort of happy to put it out on Kindle Direct Publishing and then design the book cover myself. And then when I was writing, I was getting into it, and I thought, maybe I'll have sort of raise my aspirations a bit. And luckily it got picked up by Red Dog Press, who have designed me my book cover that I absolutely love. But yeah, the, the sort of response has been a bit ridiculous really, because some of my writing heroes have read it and, and said lovely things about it. Um, so yeah, it's, it's— the response has been beyond anything I could have hoped for really. Do you know what, it's so nice though, especially during during COVID to just see how much the writing community kind of rallies around together. I actually had an interview, I think it was another Red Dog Press author actually, it might have been, I'm not completely sure, and I was saying, I quite often ask other authors, you know, what book would you recommend as well, what have you been reading at the moment, and he said your book. And yeah, it was cool, and then randomly some other bloke as well got in touch with me and said 'Oh Hazel, I know the kind of books that you like to read and I've read a couple of your book blogs, you've got to try this one.' I went, 'Ah, Matt Ross said the same thing!' And I realised that I knew the people that kind of were representing you as well, and I was like, 'Brilliant, I'll have that one please,' and I read it in about 3 days, it was brilliant. Ah, great to hear. Now just before, do you want to just explain a little bit to our listeners the premise of A Wash of Black? Yes, so it's about DI Erika Piper, a detective, and it's set in Manchester and she comes back to work for the first day after a lengthy time off and you find out why in the book. So my worry is I'm going to spoil it, but she turns up at an ice rink in Manchester where they have discovered the body of an actor, Anna Simmonds, who has been sort of killed in the same way as a scene she was filmed in years previously with certain changes, and they don't know why. So that's where the investigation kicks off. So yeah, I'm so bad at summing it up because I really— well, basically It's just about somebody who hates it when a film ruins the book and they don't represent it properly, and just how much, you know, creatives can go a little bit psychopathically murderous over such a thing. I mean, to be fair, in due respect, I don't like it when the film ruins the book either, but, you know, I've never gone that far. Occasionally just maybe a few crosswords over a pint in the pub or something. But it was a— it's quite interesting. It is, as I said in the intro, it is very gory. Which I love. I'm a wimp as well, like I can't watch any medical dramas because the first hint of blood I sort of scream away from and I really, I can't stand it. So, and I sort of didn't realize it was so gory until people started reading it and said like it's pretty, pretty sick and then it was almost news to me. Ah yeah, but Chris, can I just ask you, the people that said that to you, as you're a school teacher, has it been any of the parents going, "Um, so dude, right, I've read your book, it's a little bit disturbing, uh, are my kids okay with you?" Parents' evening has been a little bit different this year. A few of them have read it and, um, they've been really nice about it, but yeah, I've sort of had to assure them that their child is safe in my care. Yeah, it is like I've lent the book to somebody and they just went, "Oh, it's brilliant, but did you say he was a teacher, Hazel?" I went, "Yeah, I guess." Wow. Yeah, I've had some interesting playground chats. Yeah, you've got to do what Mr. Mack says, otherwise, you know. Yeah, it's been quite a good disciplinary tool actually. You sort of have to flash the book cover up on the board and they do what I say? I don't think that's— any future employers listening, that's not my means. What age school children do you teach? I'm teaching Year 3 at the minute, so 7 and 8. Right, okay, so Year 3 is one of the years that was not a priority year for schooling during the COVID lockdown, wasn't it? Yeah, although I— we had the key worker group in, in a little bubble, so I sort of got to spend time with some of my class, which was really nice. Sort of the little bit of normality that I strived for really helped. Yeah, and do you know what? I've got a lot of friends who are teachers, and the experience for teachers has been quite different for everybody. I mean, some classrooms are quite structured in doing it online, others just gave work at the beginning of the week, some were being able to actually teach the bubbles, others were in charge of doing things all online. It's been bonkers, hasn't it? Yeah, I think the guidance— I don't want to get political because I'm really not interested, but I think just there was never anything clear, so it was sort of, you can do it however you want, and then when some parents heard about how other schools were doing it, it sort of made it a bit difficult when you had to answer questions about, well, why aren't you doing it this way? But hopefully it's back to normal in September. Yeah, hopefully. I mean, I think we've just got to remember, you know, for anybody else that's listening, every school is different, every child is different, every area has different requirements, and, you know, I think the reason for such— I mean, I'm not praising the government or anything like that, but I think we have to remember that one rule was never going to fit everybody. Yeah. But yeah, anyway, again, we've digressed. We were talking about books, weren't we? Although it is relevant because, you know, it's to do with— there's been a lot of kids who have had to turn to a lot more reading, you know. And doing things, you know, kind of on their own as well. It's been, it has been interesting. I mean, my kids have been reading so much more. It's been really nice to see. We, I mean, you were talking about the writing community at the start. I put out a sort of Twitter plea asking authors for their best piece of writing advice because we set up a writing competition to try and sort of have a nice, nice end to the year. And I had so many brilliant— like Mike Craven, who's a Gold Dagger winner, and S.E. Moorhead, who's written a book called Witness X that is incredible, Phoebe Morgan, who works at HarperCollins as an editorial director. They all sent these amazing pieces of advice, and it just inspired the children so much. So I just think The writing community is a very, very cool place at the minute. It really is, and actually, because I was worried about what was going to happen, because all these people who are releasing books, whether it's debut or not, they have all these book tours and signings, and none of that could happen. And I've seen how some of the great publicists out there have really thought outside the box and kind of gone to town. And, and you know what, although you know, the situation took away with one hand and gave with the other, because yes, you can't do your blog tours, you can't promote yourself properly, but you know what, everybody— I think reading was in the top 10 hobbies that people took up during lockdown. Oh really? Yeah, which is fantastic. So many more people have been reading. This show as well, it's been doing quite a bit better as well due to the fact that, you know, reading is a distraction, it's entertainment. People decided to learned something new because they finally had the time. People who were furloughed, obviously I understand key workers, basically have thrown all the books away and said, "Well, I'm never going to see you again." And so I do like to look at the positive sides of any situation. And yeah, reading has— I mean, I was trying to move house during lockdown and the amount of books I gave away Oh, did job lots of. People were just, they were loving it. Oh, that's really nice. How was the moving house situation during it? Did you manage it? No, basically. So I bought, I got my place just before lockdown and then I couldn't move into it. It was impossible because at this point we were really, you know, especially for the first 8 weeks or so, everyone was scared to go absolutely near anybody or even ask. Yeah. I just couldn't do it. But even if I managed to get someone to do it, it's setting up the Wi-Fi and disrupting the kids when they're trying to homeschool. And we didn't know when that was going to stop. And it was just a bit bonkers. So as soon as it all kind of released and the pubs opened on the 22nd, I pretty much said to everybody, right, help me move and I'll buy the beers in the pub. But you know what, as you move, you kind of get rid of things. My eldest reads a lot, and he'd read most of his books about 4 times over, and he reads at quite a high level anyway. And he got to the stage, he just said, listen, I'm probably not going to read these. I said, but somebody else will want them, Leo, because you've kept such, you know, you've taken such good care of them. And even in lockdown, I was just leaving them out the front and people would like post a 10 through my letterbox. Oh wow, that's a really nice thing. Yeah, I just put it up on Facebook Marketplace because you could do it completely social distancing. Yeah. And yeah, it was really sweet to kind of do because I just hate wastage. Yeah, especially books. Yeah. Everyone, some, they're always going to find a home, aren't they? Yes, and that is the main thing as well. I just wanted to, I mean, I saw so many people though, especially around, because I live around Twickenham and there's people are constantly out by the river walking their dogs. I think every other household has a dog, which was great for people in lockdown. And the amount the amount of people who just left books outside their front door and said, by all means, do swapsies or just take one. Yeah. And I thought that was really cool. Yeah, that's a really nice thing to do. There were a few of those around ours, and then I got rid of some books that way as well. Especially like, you get sent sort of proofs, and it's really, really lovely, but I always kind of like to buy— if I've really enjoyed it, I like to buy it when it comes out because to sort of support the author. So I would often set out the one that I got sent in advance so that someone else could read it, and it's— I've had quite a few nice chats with people around the neighbourhood. So, well, that's the thing, it's a way of being sociable, but also it's helping people get back into reading because then they're happy to read. If people were skint as well in lockdown, yeah, um, I just, I need to remind people, libraries are 100% free, uh, but, you know, people then can get into it and realize the benefits and, you know, spend a tenner on a book which can last you anything from 2 days to a few weeks. Yeah, and it completely take you away from, from the life you're living at that while. Well, I mean, 100%, because one of the reasons I do this show and, and why it does support mental health and mental well-being is I can't think of any book that isn't mental health or mental well-being focused. Yeah, it's, it's learning about people's lives, or it's entertaining, or it's a distraction stopping your brain from going off in all sorts of different directions. And sometimes you just want to kind of escape a little bit, I think. And that's why I absolutely love books. I think, you know, more reading the better. Absolutely. Yeah, and what's your favourite book at the moment? Currently, and I don't know how I missed out on it at the time, but I'm reading The Seven Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle by Stuart Turton, and it's just the most mind-bending time-travelling murder mystery going on. It is absolutely incredible. I got sent a copy of his next one that's coming out in October, I think. And I was talking to him the other day about it, and he said he reckons I'm the only person that's read them in the wrong order. Oh, there's an order? Oh, okay. They're completely unrelated, but just the order of release. But yeah, it's just one of the best books I've ever read. It's really— I can't get enough of it. I'm sort of neglecting my children a little bit, which is horrible, but I'm sort of, like you say, total escapism. I'm in this manor that's crumbling and there's all these characters that you have to keep track of and I just think it is— and for a debut as well, I mean, how he— I don't know how he came up with the idea. It's just totally original and incredible and I'm loving it. Ah, wait a minute, Stuart Turton, is he the one where you were asking for advice on Twitter today about how to 'Get through a radio interview and drop an F-bomb and the rest takes care of itself.' That's him, he's a naughty boy. Please don't swear. I'm just looking at it now on Amazon because I like to— I love basically reading books from just suggestions of other people. I just think that's the best way ever. I might contact him. But yeah, it does look fascinating, The Times, exhilarating, The Daily Express. There you go. Won the Costa Award in 2018. It's just, I think, like we talked about escapism, and I just think he can— the world that he's built is so absorbing. And the characters, I mean, you care about them and you hate them and you root for some and you don't know who to trust. And I just think it completely takes all of your brainpower to focus on it. In a good way. It's not like a difficult read, but I just think it's such a good way to escape. Sounds like a trip down my local pub, but cheaper. Yeah, I'll give that one a go. That's brilliant. And you writing your next book? Yeah, well, my— it's coming out in November, and it's finished. I finished it a while ago, and I've just finished the third one as well. And these are— are these D.I. Piper? Yes. So, um, I'd sort of— as a debut author, I sort of thought I'll just keep going with these. And now that I've finished my third, I quite like little trilogy. So I finished it, um, probably about two weeks ago, the first draft. I mean, it's an absolute mess. But it'll get beaten into shape. But I started writing a little cosy crime novella, so I'm about halfway through that and I'm really loving it. So I'm sort of giving Erika a bit of a break now after the third, and I'll return to her in a bit, but it's quite nice having sort of new characters and a new scene, a new setting and things like that. So I'm quite enjoying the freedom of writing something a bit different. And to be honest, she probably needs a bit of a break. I'm assuming that Book 2 and 3, she's not going to get any easier a ride, is she? No, things— I mean, she's already had a pretty hard deal in the first one, but I sort of felt a bit sorry for her because it's sort of the trope that you fall into where, you know, everything has to happen to the detective or the main character. And then I sort of thought after 3 three lots of nastiness, maybe it was time to give her a nice little break. So she's furloughed at the minute and I'm writing something different. So yeah, it's been good. Oh brilliant, well make sure they all come my way. I will do, yeah, absolutely. I was quite intrigued, have you ever read the Jessica Daniels novels by Kerry Wilkinson? No. Ah, so he does He was a self-published author. He's now written about 80 books, it's ridiculous, and lives in this beautiful estate in Canada where he just writes books every now and again. And all these publishers who said, "No, no, no, we're not interested," and he's now sold quite a few million books and they're all going, "Ooh, ooh, can we sign you up please?" And he's done the— there's an Andrew Hunter kind of series and and a Jessica Daniels. And the Jessica Daniels is a bit like, um, D.I. Erika Piper, but yours has got more the Didsbury— yeah— vibe, whereas this is more kind of Moss side. Ah, right. I love a look. I didn't see them. Yeah, they're quite an easy read, but he's, um, he's brilliant. I absolutely love the way he writes. And every now and again, he just writes like a completely random book that's nothing to do with any kind of series that he's doing. And yeah, he's quite cool, but he is, you know, a bit of a recluse. He's just gone, "Eh, I'm just gonna sit in my nice cabin and write," and it's cool. And I think he's just, you know, he's done very well. That's a nice way to be. Yeah, I think I've always kind of liked a book that's got a setting that even if I don't know it, it'll be so, you know, it'll take someone that lives there down the streets that they walk every day and maybe see them in a different light. So I thought, I live just outside Manchester in a place called Marple, and I kind of thought, you know, the main character can live in a nice little village and things like that. And I sort of like it when you get to know their life outside of their job. So there are some scenes where she's sort of lying on the sofa in her house and things like that. I think that's nice because you kind of get to know them as a person, and then she obviously goes into Manchester and does the business. But Yeah, I think having a little setting is quite a nice thing. So I've set my new one, the sort of cosy crime one, on the north coast of Northern Ireland where I'm from. So yeah, it's quite a different, sunnier seaside setting, so it's quite a nice thing to do. I do like it when there is reference to kind of areas that you live in, and there is, there's an author actually who I'm interviewing in a couple of weeks called Amanda Robson, and she's on her fourth book And the first one was based in a place that was completely made up, but it was blatantly Twickenham. And then for the second, third, and fourth book, she does just— it's definitely just— I mean, she even talks about the shoe shop that I get my kids' shoes from and the Sandy's, the fishmongers, and things like that. But the— one of the actual abductions was from outside what would be my son's school. Oh, the way she's done it. And one of, one of the stories, actually, I know the house she's describing. And every time I walk past, and it's nothing to do with her because I actually know where she lives, um, is every time I walk past the house, I'm like, I know it's not really you, but in theory, you're the messed up family who ended up drugging people. It's like And it is, I find it so incredibly addictive, but I love it when authors actually do base it on an area that exists, because if you've ever been there, it's just, it's just a nice little touch, I think. Sometimes I was sort of getting advice. There's another Red Dog pairing, actually, Neil Richards and Matt Costello, and they write the Charingham and the Midworth series, and they're brilliant little novellas. But I sort of asked him for some advice, and he said, where are you thinking of setting it? And I said my hometown, a place called Coleraine, and he said, "You can use the streets and use the layout and stuff, but call it something different," because he's had sort of complaints where they, you know, he'd used a place, a real place, and the librarian's been the murderer, and it sort of, you know, cast a shadow on them almost. Like, people are scared to go in the library after it. Well, I mean, yeah, I think forward. I mean, there was— I read a book last week and it was based on West Lattering, which was basically— and it was everything that she described was best— was basically Wittering down on the South Coast. And I was like, yeah, okay. But yeah, I think you do need to change the name. That's very good advice. Yeah. Wow. But yes, you live in Manchester, so that's why you've gone for the northern vibe. Yeah, I think it's gritty and it's grey and it's a city with history, so I thought, you know, there's, there's enough buildings and, and little outskirt towns and things like that to keep it interesting, that not everything's happening in this sort of small village, which I do think works well for cozies because you can sort of build up, you know, the people around the town. You can get to know the baker and stuff, but I think for a big city it's quite nice that that the killer could be anybody for any reason. So yeah, I think it's quite a powerhouse of the North, so I thought I'd have a go at setting it there. So you said that you had two kids? Yeah. Yeah, how old are they? Three and two. Oh right, so great ages then for you to need to just kind of go off into a different room and write a lot. How's the wife coping with that? Well, you know, I I only write at night because obviously I've got my full-time job as well. So once the kids are in bed, that's when my writing time is. So I try to write for like maybe an hour a day. Um, so go to bed at about half 7 or 8, and then, uh, after that I try to write. And then, so I sort of try to write from 8 till 9 and then read from 9 till 10 and then go to bed early. Um, so yeah, I sort of, I never wanted the writing to be to overtake playing with my children and stuff. I mean, it's secondary to all of that, so I only really do it when I've got spare time. Oh, that's good, because some people would possibly use it as an excuse. But that's, that's quite, that's quite strict, isn't it, to have a very set time and amount of time as well? An hour a day is quite a lot. I suppose once you get going, you just, just keep on going. I mean, how long does it take to write a book? Um, the first one took me about 7 months, um, and that was with breaks in between because I thought there's no point in this at one point and I put it down for a month. Um, but the, the past two, the second and the third in the Erika Piper series, probably took about 3 or 4 months. Okay, so not too long, I don't think. Everyone's different, I guess. But yeah, it's sort of— there are times where, you know, if I'm in the middle of a scene, then I will keep going. And if it's sort of, you know, I can't put it down and finish it or whatever, I will keep going until a bit later. But generally, I try and keep to that because I sort of find my sleep has gone to pot since since I've started writing because I just, you know, if my little girl wakes up and needs a bit of like rub on the back or whatever to get her back to sleep, immediately I'm thinking, right, what am I going to write about in the next chapter? So I'm sort of fine with having a buffer between writing and sleeping with a bit of reading time, then I sort of dump in that. But yeah, at the start I was just sort of writing until all hours and then I, you know, I was all over the show. So I sort of find this structure that works for me pretty well. I suppose, are you careful about what you read before you go to bed? Not really, I'm sort of pretty good at reading anything and it not affecting my dreams so much, although I have just read one called The Haunted by Gabriel Bergmoser, I don't know if I'm saying his name right, but it's set in the outback of Australia and it's terrifying. And it's an incredible book, it is brilliant and it's fast-paced and I read it in a day. I just couldn't do anything else. But there are some gory bits in there and it's tense, but it's brilliant. But yeah, I did have dreams about that one. So it's called The Hunted? The Hunted, yeah. I think it was only 99p on Kindle yesterday when I checked, and so it's definitely worth it. It's so good. Oh yeah, it's not 99p at the moment. As an— ah, it's got a terrifying cover with that butcher's hook, but it is, it's a great book. Yeah, see, this is it. Whenever someone recommends something, I put it in my basket on Amazon just so I can remember. Oh wow, brilliant. And who whether it's an author or not, who in the public eye at the moment do you admire? Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, there's a lot going on at the moment, and sometimes the people that we admire, it kind of shapes what we would read and how, you know, just generally, you know, what we're interested in. It's gonna sound a bit blokey maybe, but I'm a Liverpool fan. L.I.P. So this is probably going to polarize people, but the captain is a guy called Jordan Henderson, and he was sort of always seen as Gerrard's replacement. And I mean, what a burden to have on your shoulders. And at one point he was told he could leave, and he stayed and fought for his place. And in the last 2 years he's won everything. So I just think his determination and watching his interviews and stuff after winning it, where they've won it, they've lifted the trophy, and the next day they're back in training preparing for the next match. I just think their attitude, um, you know, it's easy to sort of rest on your laurels almost, um, but I think having that, that attitude where nothing is ever good enough and you always want to push yourself, and that's really, really sort of fed into my writing. The first one, I mean, my debut, I really enjoyed writing. But once you see the reaction of people, and people talk about the difficult second album or the difficult second book, it's just really, really made me raise my game. So I sort of— he's my role model at the minute with just not being content with, you know, always sort of pushing yourself. Do you know what? I mean, I'm not a huge football fan, but when you're looking for inspiration or leadership skills, some of the captains and coaches in the FA are phenomenal. They are used throughout corporate videos to inspire people. I mean, if you're— it means football means so much to some people and there's so much money in it that you've got to know what you're doing and they're there for a reason. Whether you like football or not, their leadership, their drive is impeccable. Yeah, I just think I'm so competitive, like, to the point where I wouldn't like to be in my own team. Um, watching Jordan Henderson run around the football pitch barking orders at people, watching him, I think he must be a nightmare to play with, but also he must drive you on to be the best version of yourself you can be. And I think that's what people need. It's definitely what I need. Yeah, that's the thing about having somebody that's in your corner, and you don't want people to just give you false platitudes, do you? You want them to actually push you further. Exactly, because during the lockdown, my publisher Sean Coleman and Rob Parker, another author, and I started a podcast where we talk to different authors every week and every week I come away feeling inspired by one piece of advice that they've given or just the chat in general. So there are so many people I could have chosen, but I'll stick with Jordan Henderson. Yeah, brilliant, it's a great answer. And now I do have a question that I'm a little bit scared to ask. Where did you actually get the inspiration from for a wash of black. Jokingly, jokingly, before I'd said I came up with it while I was doing a night feed, and it's sort of true, but the opening scene— and I'm not going to give anything away, I don't think, by saying it— but the opening scene is the actor's body found on the ice in the ice rink And I've sort of— I mean, I love watching films, and I'm pretty sure it might have been Fargo-inspired with all the snow, but I thought of this body with like the sort of white of the ice and then the red of the blood, and I imagined it sort of from above with the camera panning towards the ceiling, and that was always— that was my opening scene. That I'd had for maybe 3 or 4 years in my head. And I always thought, you know, like, I've always loved reading, I've always been a massive reader, but I thought, what, like, I could never write a book because that's what other people did, like these sort of rock stars to me. And then I, yeah, I had this scene and I thought, well, you know, what might happen after this? So that's when I wrote my first chapter, and then, then it sort of snowballed from there. But yeah, that sort of cinematic scene, white on red, is where the inspiration came from. Do you know what? That is what caught my eye, especially on Twitter as well. The book does look quite scarily inviting, doesn't it? Yeah, I think like the COVID I mean, I've always, like I said, that's one of the main reasons why I wrote the book. I've always just wanted a cover to see what someone else would interpret and I think Sean's absolutely nailed it. He, we went through a few and I loved everything he did, and then it's like that moment where, you know, you know in your heart that that's the one. So we, once I got that one emailed through, I was like, yeah, don't bother trying anything else, that's it. Yeah, you've done, nailed it. Yeah, I think it's simple and it, but I just think it, yeah, it's sort of different almost in the font and yeah, I just love everything about it. And then you're going to keep on, you're just finishing off the third one, and in fact, so if you haven't finished it yet, you still have time to maybe have a character in there called Hazel, right? I could do that, yeah. Good or bad? Bad, always. But so your kids, basically, they're gonna eventually gather you are an author, and yet they're not going to be able to read any of your books for a good 10, 15 years, aren't they? Yeah, not for a while now. Tell us a story, Daddy! Yeah, not that one, not that one. I've got like the sort of— I keep talking about him, but Sean, my publisher, sent me a framed print of the book cover for my— well, it was in my kitchen for a long while, and every time my youngest one would be like, Daddy's book, Daddy's book, and then they constantly, you know, there's ones lying about, so they'll come and grab it. But yeah, I sort of said not until, not for a long while yet. Some of the kids in my class even were like, I bought it for my mum and I read the first page. I'm like, oh, please don't. Oh, wow. Okay. That's the thing though, isn't it? You know, the kids will get really excited and then they can't get involved. The main thing as well is the kids in my class are like, we know your first name now. It's like, it's not a secret. Yeah, of course. Biggest unearthing in the world when they find your first name. And then like the sort of, uh, the ones that like to push it a little bit will be like, is it break time yet, Chris? Like, try it again. Do you want to end up on the ice, mate? I know finding out the first name of your teacher is up there with seeing them in Tesco's, isn't it? Oh man, yeah, absolutely. And then they come in on the Monday and be like, I saw you. I'm like, I know, we spoke. It's lovely though, isn't it? Because I remember that feeling of being like, whoa, she's in like jeans, she's not wearing her normal clothes. You know what, I did that to a teacher called Mrs. Emerson and she was in the local ASDA and me and my friend just kept on following her like we were spies because we were just It was like watching a wild animal, you know, out in the wild and you just suddenly go, "Wow, it's incredible. She picks up cheese like a human." I often find as well, I live in, like I said, a bit of a smaller village. So the shop everyone uses and if I've been walking around with like beer and a massive packet of crisps or chocolate or something and then I see one of the kids, I'm like, "Oh, can I slip?" the chocolate bag without them seeing what an absolute greedy man I am. That's brilliant, yeah, I don't think I could be a teacher, well done you. What I do like to ask all of the guests on Get Booked is, do you have any tips, preferably 3 if you've got them, on just good mental health and mental well-being? Yeah, I've got some that work for me and hopefully they will work for listeners as well. And the first one, I mean, we've talked about it, but reading. Reading takes me away to a place where, you know, you're taken away from whatever it is you're experiencing. And I really think that works, even if it's just for, you know, an hour to clear your head. And then I think it gives you space to think about, about what it is that's troubling you. So yeah, I think it's shut it off as well. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, total escapism from in a book I think is number one. Number two, I find getting outside and going for a walk, or I mean I'd say exercise, but at the minute I'm out of shape and massively unfit, so I feel, you know, a walk, I think does wonders. I think just clear air and, you know, nature does wonders for me. So I'd say going for a walk. And then the third one, when we came back to school, there's an app called Headspace, which is like a meditation app. And we did it every day with the children for 5 minutes in the morning. And those 5 minutes settled us and really grounded us. And it's just, it was, you know, really simple things like just listen to your body and how are you feeling today. I just thought it was such a nice way to get into the day, and it really made me relax and just, you know, think about— it sounds stupid, but think about what thoughts are going through your head, and are they important, and do you need to think about them now? And it really helped me sort of prioritize. It is good to engage with what is actually going on. In your head, yeah. And they sort of said, you know, I always thought meditation was like a bit hippie-ish, but actually it's just about, you know, you don't have to sit in a circle with incense and stuff. It's literally just what's important to you today and how can you get your body and your mind right to focus on it. So it worked really well for me, and the children like begged to do it every morning, so I mean, it works for all ages. I just thought it was brilliant. Do you know what? Yeah, absolutely brilliant, all three of those. And what I tend to do, and I walk a lot, I've got a dog anyway, but I quite often, if I'm walking with my kids, I don't take my phone and I don't want any distractions. Or if I do take my phone, it kind of goes in my backpack and it's tied away, not in my back pocket or anything like that. Just time away while you're, while you're walking to just not be engaging with social media or actually just be in your own headspace. Yeah, and that's— I mean, I'm pretty bad for being on my phone. I mean, when I'm playing with my kids and stuff, I'm not, but a lot of the time, you know, if there's like a Twitter notification, instantly I check it and things like that. And the other day we went to the beach and I left my phone in the house and it was peaceful, and I wasn't interrupted by little technological noises, and it was just ideal. So I've sort of, um, I've set myself the goal of looking at it less and focusing on other things more. Well, actually, I quite often get asked whether I would like the electronic version of a book to review or the actual book, and I always say the actual book because otherwise when you're on your iPad, the notifications come up and you can't really concentrate and it's too easy to just check your emails halfway through. So I'm a huge fan of proper books. There's a time and a place, obviously, if you're going on holiday and you want to take like 10 books with you, fine, download them on Kindle because it does work. But we do need to learn to switch off a little bit. Yeah. I mean, during the normal day-to-day, if I'm being distracted, then, you know, it's sort of a minor inconvenience. But during reading I cannot stand it. So if I'm reading, I turn my phone off, or else if I'm reading on Kindle, I've got the airplane mode on so that I don't get anything through. And I think it just takes you out of, out of the words that you're sort of being lost in. And then I find it hard to get back into as well. So yeah, I totally get what you're saying there. And people have said, oh, you can just turn your notifications off if you're on your iPad, but I'll then forget to turn them back on again. And then, you know, it's just another thing to remember. I struggle at the best The best of times. Now, do you find you ever write other than just your— when you're writing a book, do you write just for cathartic purposes? Do you write, you know, like a diary or, you know, any other form of writing? Not really. I recently found a diary from 2014 which I really enjoyed reading through sort of 6 years later. Um, but I always get to like March and then give up because I think like I've forgotten to do it for a few days and then I'll, you know, there'll be less and less entries and then by May I've completely given up. Um, but it is interesting to read back, so I kind of wish I'd be more disciplined in doing it. Maybe that'll be what I'll do next year actually. Um, but yeah, apart from writing, not really. I sort of feel like I'm cramming that in almost, so anything else I think would be overload. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. I mean, I, I think it's— I'm just a huge fan of kind of using writing to get out whatever's in your head, especially when I've got, um, friends or guests that say, you know, sometimes there's just too much going on, and it's like, write it down, and that kind of sorts you out because it kind of unjumbles what's going on. So there is a different element to writing that can be cathartic. It doesn't need to be for a diary or a book or anything like that. Um, I did, uh, interview somebody called Sarah Adams, called, uh, she had a book called The Life Edit, and it was just about whether you wanted to journal or just write what's going on in your head. And it was very interesting. I think that there's not enough people writing at the moment, just, and it, I think people think that if they write, it's got to be for a specific reason. Sometimes just write it and then, you know, chuck it in the bin afterwards. Yeah, get it out of your head. Yeah, I like that. Were you self-published for this book? Red Dog Press, were they, are they, do they help with that? What did they actually do? Yeah, they are like a publisher, they're just indie, so I think they started off about 18 months ago, but they do everything for me. All I have to do is write the words and they do book covers, they organize the sales, I don't have to do anything else. So they are a traditional publisher, but they're just a little— they're indie, yeah, because they're starting off. And Sean works on his— I mean, he's part of a small team, but he's the main guy. And he is incredible. I mean, I don't know how he sleeps, where he finds the time, because he's got an incredible bunch of authors. He's an author himself. And he spends an awful lot of time doing stuff for other people, so he is an absolute hero. And I just think he deserves for his press to take off, really, because the books are putting out, I think, are creative and original. I've been lucky enough to read a few that are coming out in the future, and they're just different to anything else coming out at the minute. So yeah, I think he deserves an awful lot of success. And he's probably one of those people that the busier he is, the more he gets done. I mean, I know that if I had one thing to do all day, I'd probably do it at about 9:30 in the evening. But if I have a to-do list with 20 things, it's all done by 10 AM. Yeah, yeah, because you're— yeah, you know, you've got to get them done rather than loiter about. Yeah, you're probably right. I should give him more to do then, shouldn't I? Yeah, you should. Get him to pick up your dry cleaning as well. Was it quite easy to get published? I mean, I say easy quite loosely. For me, it wasn't too bad. I've sort of, through the podcast that we do, I've listened to an awful lot of stories of very, very successful people talk about how they've, you know, their first novel wasn't published, they've got stuff lying in drawers. And mine, I mean, I wrote mine just to see if I could really, and it's the only— it's my first attempt at writing anything, it's the only thing I've ever written up to that point, and I had 2 offers from publishers and I had a few rejections. And then I went with Red Dog, and that was within about 2 months of sending it out. So actually, my journey wasn't too bad, to be honest. Um, they obviously saw, really liked what they saw quite quickly. That's, yeah, that's incredible. It was nice because I sort of thought, um, like I say, I had no— I mean, self-publishing is massive, and I, and I thought, you know, if I if I don't get anything from actual publishers, then I'm more than happy to do that and call it a day. But I just think, yeah, the sort of passion that Red Dog showed for it really blew me away, and I felt very lucky to be able to work on it. Because as well, self-publishing, I think if I just put it out there, during the editing process, there were so many things where you know, the editor saw plot holes which I wouldn't even have thought about, or, you know, expanded on bits and things like that. So it really, really helped having that process, because without it, it wouldn't have been the book it is today. So yeah, I sort of feel very lucky that I fell in with people much cleverer than myself. Well, you still wrote the book, but yeah. Were there quite a lot of plot holes? There were bits where some, I mean, quite an integral character didn't appear in a point that he should have done for it to make sense. So, and in the second one, there's a bit where my favorite notes that I've ever got were he sort of said, you know, this person was discovered because stones floated to the surface of the water, and Sean Fomian said stones don't float. So that was quite an important part. So that's, that's what he's working with. Wow, that's quite— I'm gonna have these people pointing the basics of physics out to me. You just sometimes though It's just in normal life, isn't it? Sometimes you just say things and suddenly go, wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. Yeah, I'll just rewind and say that again. Yeah. And I think when you're in the middle of a scene where you're thinking, ah, this is brilliant, and this is— I mean, and then you sort of think, right, how are they going to discover the body? Okay, well, they'll notice ripples in the water where stones are floating upwards. Like, yeah, of course that works. Oh, in fact, no, it doesn't, because that can't happen. So yeah. There are bits where I certainly need to be reined back and told that it's physically impossible. Did you end up changing it to bubbles coming up to the surface? I am, you know, I can't even remember because I've finished the third book and I can't even remember some of the characters in the first and second book. So that was my worry of coming on here where I thought you'd ask me some questions, I'd be like, I can't even remember who her partner is or things like that. But, um, that's what I was going to ask next. I've done my research, so I'm up to date. But yeah, there, um, I can't remember how I fixed it, but it definitely works now. And, um, so I've had 2 people read sort of the draft at the minute, and it needs one final going over, but both have said that it's the stronger book by far. So, um, Is this the second one or the third one? The second one. So it's coming out in November, and I just think I've, I sort of learned all the no-nos in the first one in the sort of editing process. So I know, I know the, I know where my strengths are now and what not to do. So yeah, it definitely feels more accomplished, I think. Can you tell us a little bit about what's going to happen in the second book? Yes, so she— in fact, I'm just going to get it up because I don't— I can say what happens in the third one, but that's no use to anyone. The second one is called Whispers in the Dark, and it is another Erika Piper book. And sorry, just let me get this up. So the crime scenes, each crime scene has two bodies. One has been killed and one has seemingly committed suicide. And it's sort of discovering who— somebody's behind it, and it's just about discovering who and why. And the people are very, you know, they're targeted for a reason. I just thought it'd be an interesting sort of play on someone lurking behind it, and it sort of features a lot of dark web internet stuff. And I mean, I'm not technical in the slightest, so that's— it shouldn't put anyone off because it's very easily explained. But, um, yeah, I just thought two bodies is always more interesting than one, so I thought I'd play around with that idea. Yeah, no, that's Yeah, I just don't— well, again, I was about to say I just don't get how one can be murdered and one can be supposedly suicide, but that's the whole point of reading the book, isn't it, to find out? Yeah. Did you have to do quite a lot of research then for the dark web? Um, a bit, yeah. And I sort of— I didn't— I just sort of wanted to know how it worked, um, and what— I never went on it because I'm sort of terrified of the police turning up at my door. Already with some of the stuff I have to research. But yeah, it's really, it's only a chat room, so I didn't have to do too much because it's sort of this person getting in touch with these people that he wants them to do, you know, the crime. But yeah, trying to find out how to break into it and the levels of encryption and stuff. And luckily Sean, the editor and the the Red Dog, um, he wrote a book years ago all about cyber security and he's a bit of a genius at that area, so he fixed a lot of it for me. Oh wow. So I got lucky again. Yeah, I was just thinking about what you said then about the police. I mean, yeah, your search history must be, uh, it's not okay. I spent one of the worst days, and like I said, I'm very, very, very squeamish And sort of you type in like certain injuries and you want to describe it with realism because that's, you know, it brings it out in the book and makes it real. But having to look at stab wounds and stuff is just not a fun way to spend the day. Oh man, no, I didn't even think of that. So it's quite interesting, I'm sure for all the listeners as well, finding out that yes When you are writing a book that is as gory as The Wash of Black, I mean, especially on the ice scene, I mean, I'm not going to ruin it for anybody, but the ice scene does have that whole, you know, the splatter going in the right direction. Yeah, and the forensics part of it I thought was really important because that's a bit— I mean, I'm not an expert and I had to do a load of research and I read a brilliant book called Unnatural Causes by the guy, he's like a real-life forensic pathologist, and he, he did like Princess Diana's post-mortem, and he was— he helped at the 9/11 things. And it's a really, really tragic book, but it's really good at putting in very simple terms injuries that people have, have sort of encountered. So it was a really brilliant book, and it, you know, it was fascinating, but it was also really helpful. So there were loads of Post-it notes at the top of like 'Oh, that stab wound,' or 'this gunshot,' or things like that. Sort of macabre reading, but it was really helpful for me. Yeah, yeah, I can't believe I'd never even thought of that, that how much you would have to have a look at such gross things for your research. Yeah, I mean, this is a story where it shows how much of a wuss I am, where my friend at uni, her appendix was about to burst and I had to take her to hospital because I was the only one with a car So I got her there and they put a needle in her, like, the crook of her elbow, and one single drop of blood fell out onto the bed and it spread out, you know, like— and I mean, it was one drop, but I felt woozy and had to go throw up in the toilet. Right, what happens then if one of your students grazes their knee and they're like, 'Look, look, done this,' and you're like, 'Yeah, you're gonna have to go to Mrs. Walsh instead. Yeah, it's just that I'm always like, oh, sorry, I'm really busy at the minute, can you go there? Wow, my arm's falling off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, please listen. Just walk down the corridor, you'll be fine. Now, um, with that, I try to sort of be the bigger man about it and sort of clean it up. But, um, yeah, if it's on my own time, then I can be as wussy as I want. Do you know what, that's true, isn't it? There's a time and a place where you can actually allow yourself to be taken over by your fears or issues. Ah, sorry, there's a plane going over at the moment. I do have to have my windows open because it's so incredibly warm. How have all your remote interviews been working out for you? It's been all right, you know, yeah, we're up to episode 21 of our podcast and we've had no real hitches. Everything's worked out on time and yeah, it's been pretty good. Occasionally it does drop out and things like that, but it's easily rectified. But yeah, no, it's— but I mean, I find it quite a nice way because without it I would not have connected with people that I have done. You know, there's— we've had Chris Whittaker and Mike Craven and Cara Hunter we're talking to tonight, and they're people that are way beyond my realm of knowing. So, um, to sort of chat with them and then, you know, for them to say like, oh, send me a copy of your book or whatever, is is just a massive bonus of all of this. So what is this podcast called? Can we listen to it now, or is it due to be released? Yeah, there are 20 episodes live. It's called the Blood Brothers Podcast, and we talk to a different author each week about their book and about the writing process, and I assume very, very similar to what we have talked about today. But yeah, I mean, Shari Lapena has been a I've read every one of her books on the day they've come out, and to spend an hour and a half talking to her was just like mind-blowing. Do you know, that's what I say about GetBooked, the fact that I get to read a book and then ask questions to the actual author that wrote it, I think is absolutely fantastic. And I love kind of just finding out about the process as well, you know, and hearing your excuses for your search history, which, if the police are listening, is all above board. Yes, it's totally fine. And so are you going to be back out doing book tours soon then? I mean, is that going to happen? I hope so. I mean, November, it's hard to know what's going to happen month to month or week to week, but, um, my book launch in February was one of the best nights I've had in a long, long time. Uh, we did a quiz and I read from it and it was just like a really fun night and I was really looking forward to it happening in November as well. I really hope it still can. But yeah, that would be— I'm holding out hope that everything will be okay by then. Yeah, and then to everybody else who's hoping that all these book tours are going to start again, because people love to just kind of meet the author and just get to chat away a little bit, and I think it's a really nice part of the industry and part of the events that happen especially in places like Waterstones. You know, we're missing out, we really are. I've had an absolutely fantastic time chatting to you today. I've really appreciated you taking the time to chat to us here at Men's and Women's Radio Station. Is there anything you would like to promote about yourself in the last 10 seconds? Not really, just, I'd just like to say a massive thank you for you having me and for reading my book and for putting the word out there about it. I really appreciate it, and I've had a really good time, so thank you. You are very welcome. I do have a review up on hazelbutterfield.com, but we'll put all the bits and pieces and all the information about you on there as well. Thank you so much, and enjoy the rest of your week.