In this captivating episode of Get Booked, host Hazel Butterfield welcomes debut author Maggie Richell Davies to discuss her stunning historical novel, The Servant. Despite initially being skeptical of pre-1950s fiction, Hazel was completely won over by Davies’ impeccable research, lyrical prose, and the compelling story of Hannah, a servant navigating a treacherous world of class inequality, trauma, and unexpected friendships. The novel offers far more than historical escapism—it explores deeply relevant themes about female solidarity, the consequences of assault, and how little society has truly progressed regarding objectification and inequality.
Davies reveals that the inspiration for The Servant came from a visit to the Foundling Museum in London’s Bloomsbury, where she learned about Thomas Coram’s revolutionary hospital for abandoned children and the desperate circumstances facing unmarried mothers in the 18th century. The conversation delves into Davies’ meticulous research process, drawing from historical diaries and documents to authentically capture the filth, danger, and desperation of the era. Both Hazel and Maggie reflect on how historical fiction serves as a mirror to modern society, revealing that issues of class disparity, shame, and justice remain unsettlingly familiar. The episode celebrates the power of books to educate, heal, and foster connection—and the supportive community of writers who champion one another’s work.
Main Topics
The Servant is a historical novel set in the 1700s that transcends typical period fiction with its exploration of female friendship, trauma recovery, and social inequality
The novel was inspired by a visit to the Foundling Museum and the true story of Thomas Coram, a retired sea captain who established a hospital for abandoned children after 17 years of determined effort
Maggie Davies emphasizes how historical fiction can teach us about the present, particularly regarding enduring themes of class inequality, the objectification of women, and how the wealthy escape accountability
The book authentically portrays the horrific living conditions of 18th-century London, including disease, filth, and lack of safety nets for vulnerable women and children
Hannah's journey demonstrates post-traumatic recovery and the crucial role of human connection and trust-building after experiencing physical assault
The writing community, particularly on social media, is remarkably supportive and collaborative compared to other creative industries
Historical research requires discipline to avoid getting lost in fascinating but ultimately unused details, though immersive sources like contemporary diaries are invaluable
Full TranscriptAre you feeling anxious? Online Therapy 24/7 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own...▼
Are you feeling anxious? Online Therapy 24/7 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 0207 553 5080 and check out our website onlinetherapy247.com. Hello, I'm Hazel. Welcome to today's Get Booked show for Women's and Men's Radio Station, all about books, authors, and their incredible way to help and support good emotional well-being and enrich our minds, learn about people and life. And books can distract and entertain, which is especially helpful in 2020, providing us something to get involved with and pass the time. And on today's show, I will be welcoming Maggie Ritchell Davis, author of The Servant, and what can I say? I'm not actually usually a fan of fiction set in the kind of pre-1950s, to be honest, but this book came highly recommended, so I gave it a whirl, and just wow. Maggie is an absolute wordsmith, so much so that you kind of felt she was actually narrating from the scene throughout the whole book. Her research was impeccable, and character inferences just drew you win, and it really helped you to root for the underdog and share the highs and lows of Hannah's incredible journey as a servant, unfortunate of circumstances, in a time where servants are worthless, women less, and aristocracy abide by their own rules. Ironically pointing out how much life has changed through the ages, and yet also not so much in some situations. A story of triumph and underdogs like no other. I introduce to you Maggie. Thank you for joining me. Well, thank you so much for inviting me, Hazel. I'm thrilled to be here. I have always felt that books are hugely important, that they save us from stressful times, that they teach us things, that they can help us escape from a sleepless night, and they are best friends, really. I spent, with my first husband, who was an engineer with the United Nations, I spent a lot of time, a few years, traveling to far-flung places, and he was off doing his thing, surveying and trying to find places to build dams and what have you. And I was on my own, often in places where nobody spoke my language. If I hadn't had books, I think I would have gone up the nearest wall. So books are absolutely wonderful. And I think historical novels can sometimes teach us things about the present. So I hope that maybe my own book might not only be a distraction for somebody looking for a distraction, but might teach us things about friendship. I think when men write books, they're not terribly good about friendships, especially friendships between women. And my heroine, who does have rather a hard time of it, does find that even at the darkest times there is a female hand out there stretched out to help her. And I think that applies today. I think women and their friendships are incredibly important. Oh, 100%. And I think also it's the way that Hannah is actually offering the hand of friendship to somebody who really didn't expect it, and it's not the obvious kind of friendship either, on so many different levels as well, actually, because she does actually find friendship with a man, and it is actually, thank goodness, somebody who isn't just after her for one thing. And I think that there's— I came away after reading the book thinking, you know, that although she'd gone through something quite horrific, it kind of ignited that feeling that there is some good in the world, which is a nice feeling to come away with, isn't it? Well, thank you, it is. I mean, I did feel I was trying to layer some undercurrents in the book because she, at that time, she was suffering what today we would call post-traumatic distress— stress, I should say— because she suffered a physical attack. I don't want to give too many spoilers, but it did make her entirely lose trust, especially in men. And it was a long journey for her to come out of it, but she did come out of it. And I think there is hope that one can survive things like that and come out the other side and find somebody who is teaching you that, that trust is possible again. Against adversity as well. Yes, I mean, it was— it can be difficult today, but in those days you didn't have the welfare state. There was no safety net. You could fall as far as it was possible to fall. Again, limiting what a woman can do. And do you know what, quite interestingly, I get a lot of people asking me, right, what are you reading at the moment? What can you recommend? And I've recommended this book to quite a few people. And what What I've also said is this, this main character goes through a lot of struggles and how women are objectified and put upon and downtrodden. But yet there are so many key themes in this book that are actually so relevant today as well. You know, single mothers are still slightly looked down upon, and there are definitely themes where the aristocracy or the rich aren't beholden to their crimes as much because there are ways to get away from it, and the shame involved, and how things managed to get brushed under the carpet. So although this book is about how things were back in, you know, the 1700s, it's still— there's still a lot of themes that are very relevant for the current day, don't you think? Oh, absolutely. I mean, we still live in an uneven society. Then it was disastrously so. I, I don't know whether you've ever been to the Foundling Museum in London's Bloomsbury, but it was a visit there which started this whole thing off. I hadn't been. I'm ashamed to say that despite living within reach of London for years and years, I had never been there. But they have got tokens left by these women who had to leave their babies with the hospital. Previous to its creation, women were leaving their babies on dung heaps. They had no recourse. We didn't have convents here in the way that Catholic Europe had. So if you were unfortunate enough to have a child out of wedlock, or if your man abandoned you and you were in the gutter, there was nowhere to go. And it was only when this wonderful, wonderful man, Thomas Coram— which is a true story, yes, I mean, a retired sea captain. There is a, a painting by Hogarth of him in the museum in his scarlet coat And he looks like everybody's favorite grandfather. He's just so lovely. And in his retirement, he apparently used to sit on a wooden seat in the sort of gardens outside the Foundling Hospital, handing out gingerbread men to the children. I mean, a lovely man, but also very determined, because it took him 17 years to finally get the resources to build the place. I mean, that's a very long time. It was only because he finally decided to forget trying the city fathers and the arist— male aristocracy, and he approached their wives. And he got 16 ladies of very high quality, and I always think to myself, were they aware of what their husbands and sons got up to? And was that that what inspired them, that they signed a petition to King George and it all started to happen at last. But I think every sixth form college within reach of London should make a visit to this museum and see what's to be said there. I did actually put it on my list of things to do once lockdown has eased somewhat and places start to reopen a little bit more. It's just, I found it Remarkable. I mean, just, just for the listeners, basically this is where mothers who basically were going to give up— it's basically an adoption agency, wasn't it? Mm, it was. And it's quite incredible. And this is obviously where, where the whole idea, the inspiration for The Servant came from. But you must have done some incredible research The detail you go into, I mean, as I said in my intro, it felt like you were narrating from the pavement. It was that kind of— what you must have done to be able to pinpoint what life was like back then was incredible. Did you enjoy the research process? Well, it's difficult because It's a danger to enjoy your research too much because you can get lost in it. You can disappear down a hole and suddenly find you've spent 3 hours researching something which you're not going to put into your book. I mean, I've read some contemporary diaries. There's a wonderful one by James Woodford, The Diary of a Country Parson. It goes into about 4 volumes, actually. But there are wonderful things that he wrote about the night that it was so cold that all the upstairs, the contents of all the upstairs chamber pots froze solid. That's an image which stays with me. I didn't use it in the book, but, you know, it shows how different things were then before central heating and so on. But also I enjoy research, but you've got to try and be disciplined about it. It does kind of— I mean, what another thing that I really liked about this book is it was a little bit of a trip down a historical lane to just appreciate what times used to be like, especially as somebody who goes around London quite a bit. But, you know, you wonder why the Black Death was so prevalent in places like London when they're absolutely living in complete and utter filth. Yes, well, they accepted the things that we would be horrified by. I have a scene in the book where she goes to this lodging, if one could loosely call it that, and she goes down to the cellar where she has a room, and the cesspit from next door has leaked through the walls. I picked that from Samuel Pepys, who had that experience with his house in London, because next door's cesspit regularly overflowed into his cellar, and he used to go down and sort of paddle in it, and he wrote feelingly about it, and I thought, well, I know it was a bit earlier, but it still happened. I mean, it probably still happens in some places today. Well, I mean, there are some pretty interesting dichotomies in, in London, you know, you've got your £100 million houses, and yet, do you know what, you can still actually pay £1,000 to rent an absolute hovel of a bed sit in London in current day. I mean, it's, it's incredible. Yes, it's, it's very sad that all these hundreds of years later we haven't found any way to level society up very much. Although I would say that the Foundling Hospital evolved into a current-day organization which is called Coram, after the wonderful Thomas Coram, and that is a current modern-day adoption society. And I am actually, because of my various researches and things, I have become friends with a lady who works there, and they do very, very good work. I can imagine along your way of researching this book and getting involved with the process, you've come across some pretty interesting people. Have you— I mean, you must have had some incredible responses to this debut. What's it been like for you? Well, it's been quite humbling really. I've actually had an email from a lady who said, started off saying, I don't normally write to authors, but I felt I had to. Oh, that's lovely. Very nice. And I had another review actually from a lady who said she doesn't, she doesn't read historical fiction up till now, but she intends to in future. So, well, I definitely agree with that because it's not something that I would normally go for, but it was somebody in the fellow writing community, Evan Baldock, who wrote Bang Bang You're Dead, who was a huge fan. I like to ask all my guests on the show, you know, what they've been reading at the moment that they think is fantastic, and he knows the kind of books that I like, and he said to me, "You will love this book, trust me, give it a whirl," and then you very kindly got in touch anyway, so that was fantastic. But I do think I love the writing community, especially on Twitter. They're all very supportive of each other, and I think it's nice that we can recommend each other's books as well. It's definitely, it's not like the music industry, is it? I think it's wonderful. It actually reminds me of things like MasterChef. We watch that, perfect thing to escape on an evening when you're locked down. But all the contestants are pleased when somebody else wins. Yeah. And I think the writing community is like that. They are incredibly generous. And I think that's hopeful, you know, maybe the world can be a more supportive place in future. And what I do find quite interesting as well with the writing community, when you were talking about when you do your research as well, even this morning I was looking through my feed on Twitter and you see other writers on there going, "Just wondering, does anybody know if a bullet can pass straight through you in this area of the body?" And it's kind of the research. And the search histories as well that make me giggle at the process of people writing a book where I do know that there was a primary school teacher that he knows that his search history while doing his research was, what way would the blood splatter land if somebody was hit with a pickaxe at this temporal lobe? It is, I do like, I think the research process and some of the questions you get out there are quite entertaining. Yes, I think, I think the writing community are terrific actually, so would that we could all be like that. Yeah, wouldn't it be lovely? I did want to make one sort of point about my book, and that is that if people are listening and thinking, oh, I like historical novels, they do need to be aware of the fact that it is quite dark. I have had one or two people— I've been very fortunate, I've got lots of 5 stars, so I'm a very, very happy bunny about that. But I have had some 4 stars because people felt that it was a very hard journey. But I do need to make the point that if you stick with it, there is light at the end of the tunnel. So But it's not so many— there are so many different genres, aren't they, within historical novels. It's certainly not a straightforward bodice ripper. It's not a Regency romp where you've got young ladies looking for the most— the wealthiest duke who happens to be available at the moment. It is rather more raw than that. There's nothing wrong with reading Regency romps. I mean, I like to escape into a nice light read myself very often, but be warned, this is not a light read. It's not, no, but it's still weirdly, despite what actually happens throughout, it was still entertaining in the way that it was escape, and it gave you that kind of desire to have some hope. I mean, I I was at one point, I was just thinking, oh Hannah, just take the help that is being offered to you. And do you know what, this is even a current day issue where women don't accept help enough. They feel like, you know, stiff upper lip, they need to, need to get this thing done themselves. They don't want to impose on other people. And I was just going, oh Hannah, please, he's just trying to help you. But I understand why you might not trust situation, or why you might not feel worthy. There were so many things running through this book that many people could relate to. But yeah, anybody that starts this book, you have— you— I implore you to finish it, because there's— there is light at the end of the tunnel, isn't it? It's quite a nice glow as well, I thought. I, I feel you've got to have— you, you've got to have somebody— she has persevered, she has gone on beyond what you would think she could have suffered, and she has stood by her own principles. And, but she has given a little at the end. So we can drown by our own principles sometimes, although what I— yeah, and I did like it that you pointed out that it's quite often the ones who have the least that try to give the most. Yes, yes, I think there are too many stereotypes in historical fiction. I mean, one of the people who has appealed to some of my readers and who I think I ought to look at again is— there is a childminder. She's got a very fairly minor part, but she is somebody that you feel is reprehensible. I mean, she is living in a cellar. She is baby-minding. She is feeding these babies gin in order to keep them quiet. So you feel she's somebody who ought to be taken out and thrown into jail, almost. But it's not that straightforward. Circumstances forced her into doing something that she probably didn't want to do, and she was molded by being abandoned by her husband, having children to feed, having to a self to feed, having no resources. Sometimes one does things that one isn't very proud of because one is forced to. Well, they do, and a lot of books, no matter whether they're fiction, non-fiction, self-help, autobiographical, they, they kind of— what I like about them is that they, they give the reader the opportunity to understand somebody else's circumstances and try to encourage us all as a human race to be less judgmental and to understand that everybody has a different journey to travel and that there are reasons— yeah. Now it's, uh, something that I am quite intrigued, um, to know because this book's been, um, it's been out. People are about— it's available for people to go and buy now, and I'm going to make sure I put the details up on my website at hazelbutterfield.com. But what have you been reading in lockdown? Well, I read a fair amount of historical stuff as research, but for, I don't say light reading, it's not terribly light, I would quite like to mention a book which is called The Devil's Crossing by a female author called Hannah Cole. Now, Hannah, unlike myself, I'm retired, she holds down a full-time job, she's got an 8-year-old child, but somehow or other she still manages to find time to write. And she published her book round about the same time as I did mine, and it really pulled me up by the bootstraps because I kidded myself that I knew a bit of history, but I knew nothing whatsoever about a children's crusade which took place in the 13th century in Europe. Never heard of it, never heard of it. Apparently a shepherd in, I think it was Italy rather than France, but that the shepherd boy that started it had this idea, because the Crusades had been taking place, that he would himself go on Crusade and try and save the Holy Land. I mean, obviously religion loomed very much larger in those days than it did now. And he gathered up other shepherds and boys and they all headed for the Holy Land in their hundreds. Have you ever heard of this? I mean, it's amazing. No, no. Apparently. And this is the shocking thing, they didn't, many of them, get to the Holy Land. That's not surprising. But they were, many of them were gathered up, kidnapped, shipped out, sold into slavery, abused, and neither the kings nor the church of the time did anything to help them. And it was, it was a scandal, except it was a scandal that people didn't really know about, I suppose. Well, anyway, Hannah has produced this book, so I do now know something about it. I don't want to give any spoilers, but it's nice to get a historical book about something which is totally new about something that dramatically mattered at the time, which exposes the old, our old friends corruption and venality, and which of course being written by a woman, she has a heroine who is a real woman. But I don't say too much about it, except that if you're looking for a nice historical novel, How does it go? The Devil's Crossing: Sometimes It Takes More Than Faith. I'm having a look at it now on Amazon. Yeah, it's— that's definitely— I do like this because I can't— I would never purposefully go out and read a historical book, but when it's turned into fiction and made— I mean, I use the term loosely— but as entertainment, it can encourage more people to find out about what's happened in the past. But, um, wow, I'm sure that was— wasn't it? It hooks you in, and then maybe you'll just leave it there, or maybe you might investigate a bit further. It's one of those, uh, rabbit holes, isn't it? When you— when you— before you know it, you find out just how horrific times used to be. I mean, she'd be quite an interesting person to talk to because I don't know how she does it. She has a husband, a full-time job, a little delightful little girl, she writes. I mean, I'm fortunate in that I'm retired. I have a husband who is understanding but who also has a horse and rides regularly. He's riding this morning. And that means that I can sort of wave him off and gallop up to my study and write. So it works very well for me, but if you've got a house, especially with lockdown— she was self-tutoring during lockdown, I mean her daughter, so she must have a way of doing it, and it might be interesting to ask how. Do you know what, it's interesting that you point that out because I find the busier I am, the more I get done. The less I've got to do, the more I just sit there and watch Netflix and kind ponder on, but I kind of, you know, productivity breeds productivity. However, saying that, I have found that I'm getting behind with my reading and my emails and things like that because it's so hard to get things done in the house when you've got the kids, the cats, the dogs, you know, it can be a tad more chaotic. I used to, if I go sit in a café or maybe if it's a little bit later on in the week, if I go and sit in a nice pub or a wine bar somewhere, I get so much reading and writing done because all the distractions are taken away. So I see both sides. I mean, parents, I think you find most parents, they get more done the busier they are because it forces more structure. But it's— there are certain elements where lockdown just means that it's stopped us being able to do certain parts of our routine. Even traveling into London, we're now recording Get Booked remotely. I used to travel into the studio in Covent Garden, and that was at least, you know, 45 minutes on various tubes and trains and whatnot where I could read or get work done, and then on the way back, and that's all gone. Yes, I used to commute into London, and I, at that stage, I was taking an Open University degree, And I found most of my essays were composed on the train, usually with somebody's elbow sticking into my ear. But I do also love coffee shops. I mean, we live on the edge of Tunbridge Wells, and in normal circumstances we have wonderful coffee shops around here, and I do escape there because you don't— you might think you've got distractions, but you haven't. You don't have the thought that, oh, the dishwasher has just finished and it's bleeping, or should I just shove something in the oven? Coffee shops are perfect, and of course there is coffee, which is, I think, the fuel most writers run on. Oh, completely. I mean, I am really looking— that is the one thing. I mean, I have— I do need to read quite a bit, especially for this show, but I have various other shows as well, and that is the one thing. And it seems— I'm sure I know there's people listening going, "Oh no, you haven't got coffee shops. This pandemic must be ruining your life." But there are certain things that we have in our routine that help us to deal with, you know, everything that we have to do to keep our lives running. And it's nice to get away from the craziness as well. But yeah, I am definitely looking forward to getting my coffee shops back. And also, if you think about it, this is where a lot of people who used to work from home used to go as well to get things done, so it's affecting our productivity, and when we're— when our productivity is affected, it also affects our mental health. It all kind of feeds one into the other, don't you think? Yes, yes, absolutely. I mean, I can't wait to get back to coffee shops. The only consolation is that because we don't have people coming into the house, Perhaps I shouldn't say this, perhaps the family aren't listening. I don't bother too much about the things like dusting anymore because nobody much is going to be able to see it. I shall have to have a massive spring clean when we're able to have people in again. So basically when the family turn around and say, "Yay, the restrictions are lifted, we can come and see you," you can be like, "Right, I better go and get the dusters out." 'Fine, yes, I'm looking forward to seeing you too.' Even worse than that, I belong to a wonderful writers' group. We've been together for years and years, and we meet once a fortnight in one another's homes. And we spend— we meet in the morning for coffee, and we bring a sandwich, and we carry on until mid-afternoon. So it's, it's a social occasion. But I do find having— we are mainly female, we have a a lone male member who's very wonderful, the wonderful Edward. But I do find having sort of 7 or 8 strange females wandering around my kitchen saying, "Oh, let me take the coffee," and you feel that everything needs to be very pristine. Yes. But that's, that's not really that important actually, as long as, as long as you don't have a few rats crawling across the floor. Well, I mean, that wouldn't I think that would have quite an interesting— it would add an interesting element to your book community. We do have mice crawling across our floor because our cat, who is mentally deranged I think in the feline world, she has a habit, she's very good at mousing. She goes into the garden and she catches a mouse, she comes back to the cat flap She puts her head through the cat flap, she releases the mouse into the house, and she goes off and leaves us to catch it. Wow. That is not very nice. What is it with cats? I mean, I have a cat and a dog, and the cat just does things intentionally to kind of annoy all of us. I mean, I see her sometimes, she's just waiting to pounce on the dog. Cats are interesting, they don't care what anybody thinks. Wouldn't you love to be able to absorb the ethos of a cat and just really not care? No, I think they could take over the world if they wanted to, but they just can't be bothered. No, they really can't be bothered. Yeah, I mean, my cat's just sitting there looking at me now going, "I know you're talking about me, but I just don't care." Wow, yeah. So I'm just wondering, something that I like to ask all of the guests on Get Booked! What would be your 3 favourite top tips on mental health and mental well-being for our listeners? Right, well, your listeners should know I haven't been forewarned about this. Ah, off the cuff, it's the best way. I think that the, the most important thing perhaps is to be kind to yourself. I think women especially have great expectations. They feel everything— everything— they support everything and should support everything. I think you should be kind to yourself. I think you should be prepared to reach out to other people and not be afraid of saying, well, actually, I really felt at the bottom the other week. And I don't know how I got through it. And then probably their friend will say, why on earth didn't you ring me? We could have gone out and had a coffee, or we could have had a chat or something. I think that does help. I think, reverting again to reading, I think reading is a tremendous escape. And if you have a sleepless night, instead of tossing and turning, you could read a book. I mean, I've actually invested in a little nightlight, bookmark nightlight you can get from Waterstones. So if I'm awake in the night and my husband's snoring happily away at my side, I can read something without bothering him. I mean, obviously Kindle has its own light. I mean, maybe an audiobook would be a good idea. I do like my audiobooks actually for when I go for a run or for a walk, but I have actually just put one of those lights into my basket for in the night because I I don't want to read on my iPad because my Kindle is on my iPad. I think that's too bright for in the middle of the night. But, um, I do find— and because the thing that I have been using is the torch on my phone, which again can then suddenly let you go down the rabbit hole of social media. So I have just put one of those lights— they're only about a fiver as well, which is brilliant. They're very reasonable and they're, they're incredibly useful because you can sort of hunch yourself up round it with a duvet, and it's quite cozy. And sometimes the cat comes, and she knows Mike is asleep, and she'll creep up, and we'll both huddle over the book. So I think it's worth thinking of something like that. And the other thing, of course, is getting out, walking or gardening. I mean, I'm not a huge walker. I have friends who go on 10-mile hikes and say, "Oh, come along," and I I immediately sort of recoil. But a nice gentle walk for an hour or so, perhaps up a hill somewhere, just to stretch the legs. I think walking is tremendously important. Fresh air, different perspective, getting out of the four walls, especially during what's happening in the world at the moment. I think— so you didn't need any forewarning. That's— I think those are fantastic tips on, you know, just how to trying to ensure we have good mental health, mental well-being. I mean, I like to change my books up, so, you know, I read a lot of self-help, fiction, non-fiction, and comedy. And I do know, I try and— sometimes if I read too much self-help, I'm over-analyzing what's going on with my mindset, and that's when I go and search out a comedy and just kind of —big the brain a little bit. Yes, you need a— and it's, I think, change of, of pace and a change of mindset, don't you? And I mean, laughter is the best medicine, isn't it, really? So— oh yeah, the amount of times I've been sitting around a pool on holiday and I've been giggling uncontrollably to myself, and I do kind of let it go a little bit too much, and the kids are absolutely appalled by my giggling to myself. Well, kids are always appalled by what their mothers get up to. But I mean, there are some— you do need— I wouldn't want to read nothing but historical fiction. I mean, there are things like that Adam Kay book, isn't it? This Is Gonna Hurt or something? Oh, yeah, This Is Gonna Hurt. About Ian Smith's work as a doctor. And I mean, it's It is pretty brutal, but one has to say it's a real belly laugh of a book. And you've got someone like Bill Bryson, his stuff is very entertaining. Well, actually, I think that Adam Kay, he's going to be going into the West End soon with one of his shows, and he did The Night Shift Before Christmas as well. I read his book quite recently and it was hilarious. And then right at the end it turned quite serious, just to really kind of bring it home why he wrote the book. And I thought that was quite important what he did. Yes, I mean, I did feel, I did hope that perhaps he sent a copy to all the members of the cabinet with his compliments, because it does enlighten people about the need for reforms in certain areas. Especially with what's going on at the moment where, you know, we don't get to see what's happening on the front lines. And I think it's fantastic that what he did is he wrote a book that was entertaining and really drew people in. I mean, the majority of people have read the book because it got such incredible praise. But what he's actually doing is really highlighting important issues within the NHS. Yes, yes, it's an important book, although you wouldn't immediately consider it as such. I mean, it's probably a Booker Prize— perhaps it ought to be a Booker Prize winner of the future. Well, I think he's definitely being rewarded for his work. It's so incredible. He was actually— he was doing a tour of all the local theatres as well, and I had friends— I didn't actually get to go myself, but I've had friends who've gone to see him, and his stand-up is hilarious, and he's gone from being, you know, a gynae doctor to stand-up comedian, which I think, you know, weirdly that's probably quite a natural progression. Pretty massive switch. I have to say actually, Hazel, that perhaps another thing on the list, if you'll allow a fourth one to squeeze in, is a sense of humour. I have a rather a dark sense of humour, but I do find that it's an absolute lifesaver to have a sense of humour when things are a bit grim. Yes, completely. I do have quite a dark sense of humour too. Mix into that the fact that I am Northern and I have that Northern sarcasm, as do my children. And yeah, it is. And the actual process of laughing and smiling completely changes the receptors in your brain and I read somewhere recently that even fake laughing can actually help. Did you know that? Yes, actually you're right. I read that— I think maybe it's stopped now, but there were people who did laughter classes. You would go into a room with a group of complete strangers, and the leader would get you all to just force out laughter. I'm not quite sure whether I could do that, but— I couldn't, but I like the idea of it. I mean, it's nice that someone is trying something entirely new. I'm not sure that the northerners would go for that. I mean, being a proper northerner myself, I mean, I'm from Northumberland, so that's, that's pretty northerly, isn't it? That's proper north. Proper north, yes. Well, I'm Huddersfield, so— Oh gosh. Yeah, exactly. Not quite in the same league as Hadrian's Wall and all that. No, but it's a good, you know, proper West Yorkshire lass. Yes. It's interesting how, I mean, I've lived in London for nearly 20 years, and as soon as, you know, we travel up the M1, as soon as we get to Sheffield, I, you know, I turn around to the kids and I say, right, drop your H's, add some T's in there somewhere, and please, when they ask you what you want for dinner, don't say wagamamas and a brioche. It's just not going to go down very well. Yes, yes, yes. Well, I was transplanted when I was about 4, so I haven't got a Geordie accent, but my, my mother had a Geordie accent which she would revert to when she went home. But when she came back down south, she sort of soft-pedaled it, mainly because people can't understand. I mean, my, my father was Scottish and my poor husband could never understand him on the telephone. He said I used to just sort of grunt and say, "Mm, yes, mm, yes," and hope that was the right thing to say. Oh no, I mean, I have been to the pub with my brother, who, all my family live up north, and I've thought, right, I've got my northern twang back on there, and I'm really, you know, positive that he's not going to take the mickey out of me, and within seconds they're like, "Oh, Hazel, stop it with your southern accent." 'Know your roots.' I'm like, 'I thought I was being northern.' It's never good. I think you need to give him a knuckle sandwich or something. Yeah, I'm going to. I'm going to say, 'Maggie says this is what you should have.' Oh, incitements to violence. Well, you know, it's how we show affection up north. I do have another question for you. Again, it's off the cuff, but I think you're absolutely going to smash it. Who do you admire in the public eye? Who do you think is really making great waves and just is a good person to either listen to or just is a great example of somebody in the public eye at the moment? Oh, I don't think I can answer that. I mean, really, I mean, people I admire I mean, in the writing world, I admire Hilary Mantel because she made historical novels seriously considered again. I mean, as far as females are concerned, Michelle Obama is pretty high up on the list. Yeah, someone one would absolutely adore to sit opposite a dinner table with, just to share a bottle of wine and cheese board with. I would love that. I don't, I mean, I don't know. You've already smashed it out of the park, I think. Michelle Obama and Hillary Mantel, there you go, you've done it. Okay, right, right, fine. Well, I might, I might sort of throw in the lovely chef on MasterChef whose name at has completely gone out of my head, and she could cook a dinner for us, so. Oh wow, yes! So I'm just having a look now, so is it the female one on MasterChef? Yes, she's a lady of colour. Okay. Incredibly brilliant cook, and she doesn't take any prisoners. Oh, I love that! But do you know what, I think that's something as well that has been fantastic in lockdown, is the Great British Bake Off as well. Things like that. I just— Comfort food, comfort food is good. Yes, 100%. Um, yeah, and then it's just— I'm gonna— do you know what, I've watched MasterChef this time and I'm having a go. I do, I do worry when I watch food shows, I'm just constantly hungry. Oh well, yes. And then I can think, oh, I want the restaurant Sorry? It makes me feel guilty a little about my, my own efforts being not as good as they should have been, but however, it's pleasant to watch and it's low calorie just watching it. It is just watching it, but I know for a fact whenever myself and my son, we watch Great British Bake Off, we are hungry all the way through and we snack all the way through. It's just, it's mouth-watering. Maybe Michelle Obama Hilary Mantel and myself could share a chocolate fudge gâteau. Ah, yeah, that— see, I knew you'd be able to see— you've not only told me somebody who you admire in the public eye, but you've actually created a whole evening. There might be a bottle of wine involved as well, of course. I was hoping so, to be honest. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself as well? Well, when you get to a certain age, there's rather a lot of backstory, isn't there, really? I mean, I suppose I come from the era when girls of working-class background were expected to become shop girls, nurses, or secretaries. So I ended up at a secretarial college and was a PA in London for a number of years until I, until I married an engineer and was whisked off to darkest Peru for a couple of years. That was one of the occasions where being able to read was very important because my engineer husband was going off up into the mountains with jeeps and horse riding and things, and leaving me in a little pueblo on the coast with nobody else speaking English, nothing much to do except to read. But I did start writing a diary then, so I think that probably put my feet on the path. You see, Writing's quite cathartic, isn't it? Yes, yes. I mean, I would hope that some of your listeners who might struggle a bit, especially with the lockdown, they might think about trying to write. You get the idea that, oh, are you going to be a writer and get published? But you don't actually have to get published. I think I think there's something very positive about keeping a diary or trying to write a bit of poetry. You can tell yourself that nobody ever needs to see it, but if you put things down on paper, it does give you perspective about your life, and you might well look at it a week or a month later and think, that's, that's quite interesting, because I I was struggling then, but I feel better now. Or, well, things weren't that bad then, so, you know, I can make it like that again. And you can, you can possibly learn things about yourself. And who knows, you might write a bestseller as well. Well, I think that one of the things that I like to tell a lot of my friends actually is that if they're considering, if their head is going I'm completely overloaded with thoughts and feelings. If you write that down, you can help order those thoughts and feelings, and it is hugely cathartic. And yet nobody has to— you don't have to worry necessarily about what you write and how you write it, because nobody has to see it. This is why people do journals. There's a fantastic book called The Life Edit by Sarah Adams where she says even just 15 minutes of writing can kind of help you with your mental health and help you process your thoughts. And there was a lot of people in, during this pandemic, who have been struggling with sleeping. And I definitely suffered with the same. And if I wrote for 10 or 15 minutes before I went to bed, it was like I was clearing my brain out of all these all-encompassing thoughts that I slept so much better because I wasn't sitting there with them, with these words and thoughts rolling around. Because they were down on the page, and once they're on the page you don't need to worry about keeping them up there because you know you can always reference back to them. And I think that's an excellent tool, and what you said about, you know, whatever you write, it doesn't have to be published, it doesn't have to be for anybody else's consumption, it's just a process. I think also, Hazel, that maybe if you feel angry about something, You could possibly take a sheet of paper and let it all about— possibly about a relationship or a situation. You could write it down unexpurgated on a sheet of paper and really pour it all out, and then you could burn it. Oh yes, that might well help you to sort of exorcise a few demons. Or you could write two columns with all the positives and all the negatives. If you're thinking, "This is a situation I can't live with any longer," you could write down all the things like, "I can't cope with this, this, this, this, this, this." And then on the other side, you can think, "Well, there must be some pluses," and root out a few pluses. And you might find more than you think. And when you look at the balance, It might, you know, it might clear your head rather. Well, it's thought ordering, isn't it? I find it so helpful. I mean, this is going back to when I was saying that I like to sometimes sit in a café or a bar and write. I'm missing being able to do that. Now, I'm just thinking, you've managed to release your debut and you've done incredibly well and you're getting some great feedback. You released your book on— is it the 29th of April was it released? Well, it was a slightly different date. I think the ebook Kindle book came out on the 29th of April, and I think the paperback came out on the 1st of May or something, just to be different. Yeah, why not, why not. But so you didn't get to do the usual book tour and the book signings as maybe you'd hoped you could do when you were putting these publishing dates into play. What was that like for you? Well, I'm not sure whether it wasn't a relief in a way, because it is quite time-consuming. There's another female writer that I might just throw into the mix, Margaret Kirk, is a writer, she writes Highland noir about a police inspector in Scotland, and she's been published for a couple of years now, and she goes to talks and things. But I imagine having to sort of drive out to different places and give a talk and drive home, it's probably time that you could be spending writing. And with the internet, one can try and make contact with that. There are definitely— there's been some incredible book publicists and indie publishers out there coming up with very nice and creative ways to still— because the thing is, with the book signings and doing the book tours, it is all about, you know, creating some interest in your book, and especially for those that aren't 10 books in, it's a little bit harder. But I think you've managed to bypass that, haven't you? Because your book is doing very well. Well, it's not doing too badly, but I mean, I did miss out. I had a plan to sort of really hit the bestsellers, but unfortunately my husband was not very cooperative because we were talking about publicity and I said to him, "Of course, if I were to do something really dramatic and get on the front pages of all the papers, that would sell my books, wouldn't it?" Oh, and he wouldn't let you? "If I attacked you with a meat cleaver, that would pretty well assure I'd get on the front pages." But he declined to cooperate. I think that's really selfish of him. Self, self, self. So yeah, I don't know, there you go, helping him, supporting his career, and you're stuck left, right, and centre with only reading to do and writing to do. And yet when it's your turn to shine, he won't just take a quick knock on the scalp. I think it's— I mean, actually, he's, he's, he's pretty handy and he's useful. So his ironing is brilliant, actually. He's a new man. I'm very proud of him. That's interesting, actually. Well, at least you're managing to get him to be useful. To be fair, you could have probably got on the front pages of many papers if you could prove that he was a man that was good at ironing. Or is that not supportive of men? I don't know. It is quite difficult, isn't it? I hate ironing, so it's It's a, you know, marriage made in heaven, isn't it, really? I hate ironing, he quite likes it. Oh, that's just bonkers. I mean, I'm actually single. He's really picky about collars. Wow. Did you do that thing where you made sure you did the ironing terribly so that he'd have to learn? Hazel, how could you suggest such a thing? Is that a yes? I decline. Can I take the Fifth Amendment or whatever it is? You can do it, but even though we're not in America, we'll just let it fly. That's not a problem. Problem. I mean, personally, what I do is I tend to wear clothes that are a bit too small for me so that the creases kind of stretch out when I put them on, because I'm not against ironing. Every time I've ever ironed, I've burnt myself. Mm, yes. Well, the last time I did some ironing, I got distracted, managed to knock the iron off the ironing board. It then landed on the dining room carpet because I was watching something on the box, I think, in there. And we have an iron-shaped burn on our dining room carpet now, so— Ever reminding your husband that he better keep up with his good skills in the ironing department. He's a treasure, he's a treasure. He also is very good at finally reading my drafts. In the early days, he was frightened because he thought he wouldn't like it and he was afraid he might end up in the spare room. But when he finally did read it, he decided that it was reasonably good and everything was fine. Oh, well, that is a relief. Do you know that if he'd have said, "Yes, dear, it's lovely, I really, really like it," would you have known if he wasn't telling the truth? Well, that's a bit like when you're looking at dresses, isn't it? 'Yes dear, it's right.' He doesn't call me dear actually, but no, it was quite genuine. I could sense the relief in his voice actually. 'Thank God I like it.' That must be quite a relief. Can you imagine otherwise? Were there any other struggles while writing this book that you want to tell our listeners about? Well, I think I would have struggled if I didn't belong to a writing group. So I would like to forcefully encourage anybody who thinks they might write, or writes and feels they'd like to write better, to find a good writing group and join it, because constructive criticism from people is invaluable. And if you get And I mean, obviously you need to choose your friends. You don't want people who are going to tear you to shreds. But if you get 2 or 3 people saying gently to you, "Well, do you really think that your butler could have succeeded in murdering a retired general with a blunt butter knife?" then you need to listen to them. Yeah, I think, and also it's people that are in the same boat as well. So I guess if in your reading and writing group, yeah, that they're more encouraged to be honest and you can also reciprocate. So yeah, that's fantastic. That's what we've said all along, support. Get support from friends and other people. Brilliant. I think that's really good advice as well, because, you know, here on Get Booked, I like to talk about the books that the authors that come on the show have written and to get their opinions on the whole process. And there's a lot of people I know that listen to Get Booked on the basis of, you know, they want to see, get advice from people who are doing well. I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting to you today, Maggie. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for inviting me, Hazel. You're very welcome. Have a good day. You too, and I can't wait to read the next book. Oh, thanks. Bye. Goodbye. Are you feeling anxious? Online Therapy 24/7 is here to help. 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