Get Booked – Stephen Gillen, The Monkey Puzzle Tree

Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield and this is Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station, a show all about books and their incredible way to help support good emotional well-being, enrich our minds, and open our minds as well. Uh, and just another quick reminder about the incredible new initiative here at Men's Radio Station and Women's Radio Station, um, our collaboration with Mental Health Solutions in Business. To offer £100,000 of free mental health courses for NHS and frontline workers. Full details of this fabulous initiative are available both on Men's Radio Station's website and msbhelp.co.uk, so please do go and check it out and share it with anybody you think it might be able to help. Um, right, I hope you are ready and raring to get booked. And today joining me in the, in the COVID studio via Skype is Stephen Gillen, global entrepreneur, author, business and life mastery coach, and awarded peace ambassador. He is the author of The Monkey Puzzle Tree, a book that talks all about Stephen's transformation from Britain's most dangerous prisoner to a peace ambassador, which is an incredible journey from Steven, hi, how are you? Hi, hi Heather, how are you? I'm very good. You called me Heather again then, it's Hazel. Oh, sorry, sorry Hazel. I think you did that before as well. I get this quite a lot, and my ex-mother-in-law was called Heather. Oh, oh, I'm so sorry. Do you know what it is? I was— we just, we just come back from Scotland, Hazel, last night, you know, and we drove for so long from Edinburgh. It's such a long way, you know. We was there, we was doing interviews and different things, and, oh, you know, it was quite a long way. But we're rested, we're okay. Yeah, good. And also, you're based out in Windsor, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, there's been quite a few cases in Windsor because of all the tourism surrounding around there. Is everybody fit and healthy? Um, it's, it's concerning, isn't it? I mean, it's, um We just want it to, to get, to get back to normal and it, you know, for everyone to get their lives back and stuff like that and try and try and get a normality. I think, I think a lot of people are finding it hard now to, uh, you know, with a lot of stuff. Um, yeah, well, every single day is different, isn't it? Absolutely, absolutely. So we're here to talk about the Monkey Puzzle Tree, which is a bit like, um, 12 or 13 stories all in one, isn't it? If you want to just tell our listeners, um, in a nutshell— can you even put The Monkey Puzzle Tree in a nutshell? I don't even think you can, but if you can try and explain to the listeners what this book is about. It's, it's, it's a very human, human story. You've read it, Hazel. It's going to be a major film, you know, uh, with a budget of 30 million. There's, you know, there's— we're talking to real Uh, heavyweight, heavyweight actors, producers, all of that stuff are attaching themselves to the script. But, uh, that's the, uh, adaptation from the book, obviously, which I, which I wrote, which is The Monkey Puzzle Tree. It's a biopic of my life. It's a very human story. I was brought up in, in Belfast. I was born here. I went to Belfast as a, as a baby, you know. I stayed there in the early '70s through the, uh, through the Civil War there. I back to London and the East End when I was 9. I, I went through a traumatic, uh, care system. Then I got into petty crime, into very, very serious crime, organized crime. Um, I was very lost in them days. I was cast adrift. I ended up getting, uh, I'm a long sentence. I was a Category A, Category A prisoner. I went through the, uh, UK's most, uh, secure prisons and units. Um, I, um, Uh, I was away for, uh, 12 years, you know, 12 years in one sitting. I got 17 years for, uh, armed robbery, things like that. It was racketeering, all that kind of stuff, organized crime stuff. But I since, uh, transformed my life. I come out, I become a, um, uh, public speaker, um, uh business coach. I'm awarded Peace Ambassador. Last year I was nominated for the Sonar International Peace Prize. So it travels all the way through that journey, Hazel. So Stephen, towards the end of one of your stretches in prison, you were put through a rehabilitation program, quite a unique one, quite an extreme one. Can you tell us a little bit about, um, what happened and what this program was about? Um, because I was so disruptive in them days, um, I was classed as one of, uh, Britain's most dangerous prisoners then. There's a lot of stuff in the press about this, Hazel, you know, a lot of content about me and people like Charlie Bronson, for instance. But, um, What, what they was doing, the Prison Service in them days, is because they had this, uh, it was called the ghost train then, where they would send this block to block, segregation to segregation. I was on that years, you know, you know, so you'd go from prison to prison, segregation to segregation. But they've changed, you know. What they've done is they've built a £15 million special unit in Woodhill Prison that was like a prison within a prison, but it was more— it was a special unit and it was more about trying, trying to engage with the prisoners, you know. Um, uh, there were levels there, you know. So if you behaved yourself, you would get a bit more, and you could cook your own food and stuff like that. It was a lot, a lot more relaxed from the very, um, the very controlled environments we was in before— I was in before. But it seems like it was quite trust-based as well, and it definitely, uh, helped you turn your life around, didn't it? It did. I mean, uh, it was a start. It was a start for me. But, um, there was so much work to do, Hazel, really, you know, internally as well for me as a human being. There really was, you know. You have to think, um, I was imprisoned in them conditions for nearly, nearly 12 years, you know. So I was institutionalized in many ways. Now, interestingly that you say yes, of course you get institutionalized. Now Another part of your book, as I said, there's about, you know, pretty much 13 different books all in the Monkey Puzzle tree. You actually had a schizophrenic episode, which was one of the issues that followed from what you actually went through, especially inside. Now, you— I'm quite intrigued to find out what happened, the treatment you ended up You were, you were in a hospital for quite some time, weren't you? Can you tell us a little bit about what you went through and whether it still affects you now? Oh, it certainly, it certainly doesn't affect me now. And, um, you know, I wasn't in hospital that long, but it's kind of that life, that life that I was living. I, um, you know, with all of it at the end, um, you know, it was too much, you know, it was just too much with everything. And, you know, I had, I had an episode I thought people were coming to kill me, Hazel, all this kind of stuff, paranoia, all of this stuff, you know. My family— I got sectioned, you know, I was in there 3 weeks, you know, they give me some treatment. It was horrendous, really, you know, it really was, you know. But thankfully, thankfully, um, you know, I come out of that quite, quite quickly. And, um, remarkably Yeah, yeah. But it wasn't just what was happening, obviously, being in hospital for 3 weeks. There was, you know, your son's involvement and what happened before and afterwards. I mean, it's not— it's what happens before and afterwards and all the work that kind of— there must be a fear around that as well, that it's something you would have some sort of relapse. Or did you feel quite comfortable when you came out? No, it was fine. I mean, the thing about it you have to remember was, you know, Uh, as it says, as it says in the book, at the start, you know, everything, everything was thrown at me, really. You know, I had the prison, I had all the trauma of, of, of, of the care system, you know. I had the Civil War, I had addiction problems, all of this stuff. So this was part of it, was like, you know, part of the, you know, it was kind of induced by the lifestyle, you know. I mean, I've been clean now many years 11 years. But you know, back in them days, it was, it was the lifestyle, Hazel. It was all of that stuff. Well, I mean, you say the lifestyle— what you're trying to do now, where you're trying to, um, you know, trying to help rehabilitate other people and do as much good as possible, it's trying to kind of help people get away from that lifestyle and some of the trappings. Once you're in the system, it's quite hard to come out of it, isn't it? Absolutely. I mean, Hazel, look, you know, the work, the work we're doing now, as you know, is immense. We've just opened the, uh, uh, Stephen Gillen Foundation. You know, that's a number, uh, has a, has a number, and under that is three, three main initiatives. One is to, uh, educate, support, and empower disadvantaged, uh, children. Uh, you, you know, I certainly went through this. The second one is the same, to educate, support, support being the merging, empower single-parent families. This is about making the family unit cohesive and healthy again. I certainly suffered from all that. And the third one is about entrepreneurship. It saved my life. It enables people from any class or any education, any background to step forward, forge the skills, that they need to take their own destinies in their own hands, you know. You know, they get good, uh, they get good at that, and they take on staff, you know. And this helps society as well. I mean, uh, this is an exclusive, but I'll tell you, I was talking to the family yesterday, uh, this is going to be all over the paper soon, you know, and all of this stuff. But, um, our first, our first initiative is going to be with a wonderful, a wonderful young woman Rebecca, and she, um, she lost both her legs, you know, uh, meningitis. She lost both her legs. She walks now, you know, she's 22. She's just started university again, but she wants to be a surgeon. She's a terribly, uh, brave little thing, but she needs a lot of money, £50,000, to get this special, special hand. So there's going to be a lot of stuff in the news and stuff we're doing, but this is a typical, uh, typical case, you know. And through, and through Rebecca out, you know, and getting her settled. And she's a, she's a, she's a, uh, wonderful, wonderful girl. She really is. But we're gonna hire all them other people out there in the country, you know, even the world, who are, uh, who are suffering from certain things. This is the real work we do today, Hazel. Stuff like this. So that's just fantastic. It must be quite uplifting as well to be able to give back as well, and and help other people and help inspire people as well. And you do a lot of talks. Can you tell us a little bit about the work you do with Kul Mahay? Kul Mahay, yeah, Kul Mahay is, was one of the UK's most, he was the UK's then most senior Asian officer. He was a Gold Police Commander And, um, we was, uh, we've done loads of work together. Two Extremes is the main one, being that two people couldn't be more different, right, you know, in certain parts of their life. But after our metamorphosis, he left the police force as well. He wanted to do more. And we found ourselves, through the work that we was doing, and coming together, which is a wonderful thing, you know, which goes to show you it doesn't matter about the past. It doesn't matter how far away we are from each other. We, we are a lot more than has separated us in the past. Yeah, it's what you do from here on in as well, isn't it? Some people might have to try a little bit harder, but you know, um, there's always time and chances for people to do good. Um, now you did actually tell us that about the, the movie that's going to be done. It's, it's been— is it being written or directed by Kieran Soucher? Uh, Kieran Soucher, of course, you know, he's, he's the son of John, who's a famous broadcaster, and his is David. He played Agatha Christie's Poirot. Kieran— Kieran's a screenwriter. There are many, many influential and talented people on the team that really are— Kieran is just one of them. But we have the screenplay, it's been written already, and we're, we're in the process of really, really going into it and looking at the detail of it and layering it just that little bit more, which will go on. You know, it's very normal for a screenplay, but it's absolutely wonderful. Hazel, I spoke to you a few months ago and you— I asked you who you would like to play your part. Now, have you gone into casting yet? Can you tell us anything? Oh, oh, you know, I want to know. Oh no, this is the question. It's, it's a good question. But you know what? It's a hard one for me, really, because everyone says this and You know, I do know this. All the team, some very senior people, they're all talking about this and they're all unanimous that it's going to take a real, real heavyweight, you know, to carry it. You know, the depth and the maturity that they would really need is going to really stretch and pull any actor. But it's a wonderful role for any actor. You know, you have to think they have to be able to play that real darkness. But the transition in the middle goes going into real life, you know, and they tell me I'm a very complicated character, Hazel. So have you got, have you got anybody in mind who you'd like, if you could just choose anyone at all and it didn't matter whether they were going to say, you don't, you don't have to get them to do it, but who would be your ideal person to play you? It's Yeah, Tom Hardy would do a wonderful job, you know, and we're speaking to many people like that. I can't really say any more than that, but you have to understand some of these actors can be, can be, uh, booked for 2 years in advance. So we have a shortlist. Christian Bale's been, been mentioned, you know, uh, there are some Irish, Irish actors that are very, very prominent who we're, who we're talking to as well. So it's really, it's a lot of work, but I'm happy to come back another time a little bit further along and give you some more, Hazel, if it helps. Yeah, yeah, I'm just really quite intrigued. I really want to know. And there's, there's quite a few different characters in this as well, especially back in the days when you had, you know, uh, certain gang members as well. I'd be quite intrigued to some of these characters? There's been a few people. Colin Farrell, there's, you know, we're talking to a lot of people. Yeah, brilliant. Oh, fantastic. Um, and do you know roughly when it might go into production? Um, we're working really, really hard. We're at the full, uh, steam ahead with it. Obviously this COVID thing is a, is a, is a funny a funny concerning thing because we, you know, we don't know exactly where that's going to take us apart from, you know, we want it to get better for everyone. It's the same in the States because the film is going to be released in the States first, you know, you know, it's going to be a Hollywood film and then it'll come here after. So these things are very, very important, even, even, um, yeah, they're very important commercially obviously, you know, and everything else. But another thing we're looking at as well is, look, you know, we don't want to glorify violence here. We can It's not that story. It's, you know, it's about redemption. It's about all of these things. It's very, very emotive. It's an inspirational film. It's about solving them problems. But, you know, it travels through all of these, all of these areas. But we want it to be a film. We certainly don't want it to be an 18. It's not that kind of film. We want it for the broader, the broader audiences, say, like, you know, a Busta Buster kind of film. Oh, I said, you know what, I completely forgot about Buster. I used to love that film. Yeah, it needs to be that kind of, you know, it's going to be like Buster stroke Guy Ritchie with, uh, with, uh, with all the clever stuff. Yeah, no, brilliant. Uh, that sounds absolutely fantastic. Now, um, something else I want to know is obviously you deal a lot with social media and the news at the moment, especially, especially now that the monkey puzzle come out. But is there anybody in the public eye at the moment that you think is just smashing it out the park? They're just being a really brilliant example of people, somebody that we should look up to. Um, you know, I must be honest, there are many, you know, there are many people out there, they do many great works and they do many great things. But, you know, I have to be honest, I can only speak as I find, and You know, and I meet so many people and we talk to so many people, but Hazel, for me, really, darling, I'm telling you, you see, the people that really inspire me and blow me away are people like Rebecca, people like— yeah, who are, who are just the bravest little things. They have so much to contend with and they're still focused on achievement and others. That is just so courageous. It blows me away every time. And I think it's a really good message to people as well, that, you know what, no matter what life throws at you, again, sometimes you do just have to try harder, but anybody can do anything if you, you know, really put your mind to it. And I say anything probably quite loosely, but, you know, you know, we don't— life is a lot better at the moment for us to be able to go further. We're not pigeonholed as much. You know, and it, and it's really inspiring. We need to get stories like Rebecca's out so that people can aspire and go further than what people have been able to do in the past. And now, when you're dealing with inspirational people like this all the time, and it's— I'm sure that's quite cathartic and it's good for your well-being. Do you have any tips? I normally like to ask my guests for 3 tips on well-being. Um, it's definitely— look, you know, I always say if you want to be strong, be around people who are strong, you know. You know, if you want to be inspired, be around inspirational people, you know. This is the thing really, you know, it's about, it's about that consistency, but it's also about being open, being open to learn always, and being open to be teachable and not 'Oh, I know.' What do we know? You know, you know, we're on this Earth for so long and we know so very little. You know, it's about being humble. You know, it's about connecting with people. I see so much stuff with people, and these really easy things are lost, but these things are so important. Hazel? Yeah, I agree. And do you, do you read yourself? Are you, are you a big fan of reading? Excuse me. I love, uh, I love reading. I really do. Um, it's— my life is not my own at the moment, in a sense. It's just so much responsibility. I mean, there really is, you know, and we have to find a little bit of, of time to rest and of course to be with the people who we care about. But it's, it's, um, at the moment our schedules are really, really tight with everything. But it's wonderful, you know, in the right way, in the right way. But I do, I do, I do like reading. I would like to get more time to read more. Have you— so, and I know that you're quite busy at the moment— have you actually had a chance to read any books at the moment? Anything you'd like to recommend to our listeners? Um, I always loved, uh, Napoleon Hill. Think and Grow Rich. I always loved that. Um, uh, The Nine Steps, uh, of, of, of, of successful people. I always loved that as well because, you know, yeah, there are— I like them books because for us as human beings, you know, we want to be more joyous, we want to be more free, we want to be more peaceful, we want more of a beautiful experience with the world and the people we care about. This is very, very possible and more for all of us, you know, no matter what challenges we may be facing or how hard it may be at any given time. And these books, they help to unlock that for us. So I think they're, you know, they're wonderful content. Brilliant. Yeah, so you like kind of motivational books and, and how to better yourself? Well, I mean, my book, my book now, it's, uh, it's selling everywhere all over the world, you know, uh, interviews, all this stuff that I do. I just love knowledge, Hazel. I love knowledge, and I love really— I love innovators. I love, you know, I love people who are different. I love people who are adding, adding things, you know, you know, in a simple but really, really clever way. So I'm always looking out for stuff like that. Is this quite a recent thing, you think, in the last 10 years, or were you like this when you were in prison? I always, uh, I always sought knowledge, you know. I was always a seeker of truth. I was always very esoteric in, in, in the things that I liked, you know, and the things I was drawn to. So certainly I've always kind of been a bit like that. Oh, okay, that's interesting. I mean, I can't necessarily imagine you hiding out in the prison library Tell us about some of the details from when you were in prison, because weren't you in the cell next to Charlie Manson? Uh, Bronson. Charlie Bronson. Sorry, Bronson. Yeah, I know Charlie very well. Yeah, you know, I was, I was in a lot of prisons, a lot of prisons with Charlie. Um, he's a character, you know, but again, there's another side to Charlie. There's wonderful sides to Charlie. Especially now there's a lot of stuff in the newspapers and all this stuff about he's meant to be coming home. I do hope so. He's a wonderful cartoonist now, you know, he's the author of many, many books. He does a lot of charity work, you know. He's, he's, he's in his late 60s now, so I'd like to think that he would come home. Yeah, he's quite a character, a wonderful storyteller, and he's in the Guinness, Guinness Book of World Records for fitness stuff, loads of different fitness stuff. Really? Yeah, didn't you know that? Yeah. No, do you know what, I'm— because quite often when I do these interviews, people tell me about books to read or websites to go and check out, but I'm gonna Google— I'm gonna Google him afterwards and, uh, and just, just see what he's been up to. That, you know, it's, uh, yeah, put it on, on there. Uh, brilliant. Wow. Um, and, and Who else? You've known some other quite well-known prisoners as well, haven't you, Hazel? Do you have to think— I was a Category A prisoner, and they keep us all together basically. So yeah, security and all this stuff, like I said, it's, it's not the general prison population, you know, that people would imagine. It's really not. And, um, so anyone really, anyone that you would think of you know, apart from really, really bad people, them kind of people there, they're kept separate. But, you know, any, anything, um, any notorious kind of person you would have thought of that time, of that era, I would have certainly been with them or known or passed by through places where they was. So, and interesting, like what you mentioned before is that, you know, when you have been inside, you were put on like the ghost train track, which means you were, you know, shipped here, there, and everywhere. How many different prisons do you think you've been in? Oh, really? It's, um, it's crazy. I— you can only go to certain prisons, but, you know, we're talking probably, probably 30. Wow, you could start writing TripAdvisor reviews for them. Oh, please. It's crazy. But yeah, you know, some, some, you know, you'd go back 2, 3 times, obviously, you know, you go round and round, you know. There's only certain places you can go as a Category A prisoner. And do you think they are better places now than back when you were in prison? Yeah, this is, uh, this is really interesting because, uh, I think I'm going to be doing a lot of interviews on, on, uh, terrestrial, terrestrial TV and different stuff about this because the government now, they're, uh They're coming in to say that prison— for serious, serious criminals, they need to do two-thirds of their sentence. Now there's a bill, so there's a lot about prison, prison reform at the moment. Um, these places are always the same, but you know, uh, they've, they've got me down as an expert, Hazel, in this stuff to come and, you know, uh, talk about ideas and different stuff. I was talking to someone this morning, so I think I'm going to be talking a lot about these issues in the coming weeks as well. So if that— if it's asked, obviously you're classed as an expert in this field, uh, what one thing do you think needs to change? Or maybe a couple of things? Well, it's, it's a fact that there are people in prison who need to be in prison, that's for sure. We know that there are other people who are misdiagnosed, mismanaged, and this is, is unhelpful. This is the first, uh, place that needs to be looked at and get systems that don't just herd people around that cause all sorts of problems and certainly don't help society or them to make a transition to, you know, to be healthily conducive towards good things when they come out. This is one of the problems. Well, do you know what? This is the thing. This is a bit like being stuck in the lifestyle, which we were talking about earlier, is that once you have been inside, it has to be disclosed. It's quite obvious when you've got a gap in your CV, and it's quite hard to get— if you really want to reform, it is quite hard to do so, isn't it? It's not like you're gonna walk out of prison and be able to become a teacher straight away if that's your vocation. It's, you know, and it, it can be quite dispiriting, can't it? It's a monumentous problem, it really is, you know. But the fact of it is, Hazel, it goes much, much deeper than that. This is why we're working with models in the foundation, you know, which academics are— have been using all around the world, in New York, um, different cities, and they're actually getting results. These are social social parenting, parenting models and stuff like that. And we're really, really looking at that. This goes into the work that we do at the foundation. And while we're looking at a lot of root, root causes, as well as going there to give solutions to, to help everyone, basically, Hazel, this is— this, this has to be the goal, right? Yeah. And it's breaking the cycle, isn't it? And people looking out for each other. And also, you know, people can do bad things, and sometimes people don't want to reform, but those that do, there needs to be a way for them to be able to do that. Absolutely. You know, and this is one of the things which, which I just said there, the, the way the mismanagement is very, very, very, very unhelpful. I said that straight away there. Look, you know, there are people who should be in prison. We know that, you know, you have to be accountable for your actions. But for most of us, thankfully, on our journey of life, uh, it's about timing. It's about timing, you know, you know. And in many ways, what some of us, uh, may not be open to last year, maybe this year we're absolutely up the front, you know, you know, to try and do that, do you know what I'm saying? It's just really like that. Do you know what, do you know what I've not heard much about? There's been— COVID is absolutely everywhere at the moment. It's, it's relevant to everything, but you hear very little about COVID in prisons. This is an interesting fact because you would think that would be one of the worst places. God forbid they started getting an outbreak in there, you know. And I considered this, but But look, you know, we have heard there's been, you know, they've changed the regimes in there big time because of COVID you know. So, you know, what you're seeing is the same kind of thing, but, you know, you're seeing prisoners doing a lot more time behind their doors and stuff like that, Hazel. Oh really, is that— yeah, but you know what, I mean, there's, there's the humanity element of it, but to be honest, people that aren't in prison have had to stay indoors and isolate and stay away from their loved ones as well. So it's kind of— it's an interesting concept, isn't it? Very much so, because, you know, I said this, it's like, it's like a house arrest, let's be honest. And, you know, especially when we was locked down. So, you know, what you're talking about is we all lost our lifestyles and our freedoms, our normal ways of life and looking at the world and contact with other people, you know. So it gives people who would have never had any any experience of what that would be like in their lives, to have a taste of what that would be like for people in prison. Uh, yeah, and also it's the uncertainty and not being in control of what you can do and where you can go to. It's, it's quite, it's quite bizarre. And, and weirdly, quite, quite slightly in a different route, like, I've got children and they've just started going back to school, and, you know, nobody knows what to expect. But my son has a cold today and I've had to keep him off because I know it's not COVID but because he's coughing and he looks terrible, you're not allowed to send them into school. And it's that simple. Whereas, you know, he's one of these kids that really likes to, to go in quite, you know, he wants 100% attendance, he loves it, and he does actually really like school. And it's interesting that people can't live the way they want to and everyone's restricted, and it's such a weird situation for us all to be in. Yeah, this is— there's so much to this really. And you know, it's like the book, it's like I— you know, one of the main things for me in the book The Monkey Puzzle, Tria, that was firstly, there are bits of us scattered everywhere in that book. You know that, you've read it. It really is a roller coaster journey. I mean, you've said there 13 stories in there or whatever. Of course there are, but this is because I kept to the authenticity. It's a very brave book. I didn't shy away from anything. I knew the power in writing the book and getting the message out was not just to write it, you know, in the beautiful way and structure it, which I have, but to be really brave, to keep to the authenticity, and to really go for it. It's very pictorial and emotive, the style, you know. It pulls you straight in, you know that, you know. And this is the thing, it's to, it's to take the readers to experience these different worlds and what actually like. So, um, you know, we go through high security prison, you know, and there's no holds barred. You know, you've got the civil war in there, you know, you've got addiction, you know, you've got traumatic, um, uh, times in care, you know, as a child, class to drift, all that learning, all that trying to figure the world out. There's loss, there's the pain, you know, there's happiness, there's inspiration, there's success, there's great success. But you know One of the main things in that book as well is, is it's not just a book saying about all this stuff happened and it was very bad. There's a real transition in there, but it's very detailed about how I uncoded that, you know, and got to where I am today and the things we do today, or where I'm, you know, I'm happily— I'm proud of the person I am today. I wasn't always like that. I had a lot to deal with, you know, but there you go. Uh, so it is the lessons, it is the lessons that are very, very important as well, Hazel. Yeah, and also, you know, as we're saying, there's so many different elements to this book, and it just kind of exemplifies all the different contributory factors to, you know, what can be our life path. And then, you know, making that decision to change that path, it did take a lot of hard work, but, you know, we have to actually We are in charge of the decisions we make, and some of them are harder than, than others. I mean, I've said to you before, your book kind of goes up and down the timeline, doesn't it? It kind of— when you're talking about something, then the next section it goes back to a time in your life that kind of contributes to a particular story that you're telling. And it's— is that how the Is that how the film's going to go as well, where you're going to go backwards and forwards in time? That's a great question. And I've had a lot of people who's close to me and other people as well, who, you know, who's read it, who's, you know, they said, Stephen, you know what, it reminded me of Once Upon a Time in America, but different, you know, obviously like to here, to the current times and stuff like that. If you was to write it in that way, because there's a lot of backstory. And it uses that, you know, and I've written it like that because it was, it was very important to use that device for many, for many reasons. Not just to drive, drive the narrative, but to put the pieces together in a, in a clever way that revealed more and bits more all the time. Not just of the child, but of the man, and then filling in, filling in the bits in the middle. You know, tying all the bits together in the middle of why and how and what was actually going on all the way through this. The film is— the film is the same in many ways. It is. It's— it, it uses a lot of that. It does, Hazel. Yeah, right. Okay. Um, yeah, I think that'd be quite interesting because it helps tell the story, doesn't it, sometimes? A bit like— I don't know if you've seen This Is Us on Amazon Prime, but they keep on going back in history to kind of explain something that's happening in the present. Because, you know, things that happen in our past are huge contributory factors to who we are now. They shape our lives 100%. And look, you know, as human beings, it certainly— even though the past is the past and it's certainly about the present and definitely where we're going, we are tied to the past. And, you know, even as, even as the screenwriter says, Kieran, he says But look, you know, the thing was, is someone like Steven, you know, and his journey, these men, you know, are forged by what has happened to them in their younger life. Uh, yeah, most of us are, Hazel. That's the truth. Most of us are. So there is always that, that kind of tie there. And in many ways, it's about not just in real life, but even in the book and the film unraveling that, you know, unpacking that. Yeah, it's so hard to do that with such a kind of multi-faceted kind of storyline. It's not just about the prison, it's not just about the mental illness, it's not just about the rehabilitation, it's to do with the care system and, you know, families and having children and, you know, the prison system. It's just, there is a lot to, to squeeze in there. Now You have children of varying ages. Have they read the book? The older boy, he's 28, he's doing things that 28-year-olds do. He's very cool and yeah, you know, he gets it, he gets it, you know, he's very busy, does his thing, but I know he's, you know, he's very proud of his dad and that now. And the younger ones, that's a girl and a boy, they're 11 and 10. They don't really understand it as such, although they do, you know. They, you know, my daughter, she says, oh, you know, they just think Daddy's famous, right? You know, because he's got a book and, you know, he's on telly, he does all this stuff. But, um, I've tried to, I've tried to shield them as much as possible. And, um, but the book is there, and, you know, it's about honesty, it's about the truth. It is what it is. But that's a really good question because I even said, you know, I even said to the production team and a few of us did on a meeting that, look, you know, my children when they watch this are going to be, you know, are going to be so emotionally hooked with this, you know, they're going to become these people they see on the screen. So we're very mindful of what we do, Hazel, you know. Yeah, it's, it's incredible, isn't it? Because quite often You know, we want to write these memoirs and these transformative stories, and you've got to— as you said, your book is very brave— and we've got to give a lot of ourselves, but also keep in mind, you know, that our children are reading, reading these books, our families. And it's interesting, and it's— I think sometimes the reader doesn't always realize what's got to be thought about and what you're giving away in sharing this part of our lives. Yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's, um, it's quite a journey really, you know. And, um, all I can say is, look, you know, I'm a very grounded person, uh, uh, very grateful person. I'm a very courageous person. I, I don't let my head get taken by any of this stuff. I mean, I would never be where I am if I was that kind of person. So I'm very grounded. But you, you know, the more this exposure gets bigger and bigger and bigger Like, for me, you know, you understand, you see why you retreat further and further back, you know, within your own, your own, um, uh, circle. Hazel, inner circle, you know? Yeah, well, in a circle, do you, do you have anybody from your old life who still kind of sends you Christmas cards and, and you go out for the odd pint with them, or they're like, oh, not Steven, he's all in with the coppers? Do you have that kind of situation still? No, no, my life is not like that. And look, you know, a lot of that— I never, I never done anything wrong in that life, Hazel, to anyone. I played by the rules. I've done more than most. I had a good name, you know. I come out of that life— thankfully I come out of that life. Uh, it is what it is, you know. I wanted that in that life for many years. And look, you know, a lot of them old ones that are still this stuff, you know, and you know, I hear things they say fair play to him, right? You know, I mean, at the end of the day, they probably want out of it as well, I'm sure. You know, doing it and talking about it is a different thing, obviously. But look, you know, I'm no one's judge. I'm not— I'm not beholden to anyone. You know, I'm driven by what I believe to be right and doing the right thing, you know, and creating things in this world like anyone else. And that's it, you know. But my life is, you know, is so, is so different now, you know. I've built, I've built my life with my hands, you know, to be, uh, in the healthy way that we wanted it to be, that we have now. Hazel, brilliant. I mean, that's just— it is fantastic. And it's quite nice for the listeners to be able to hear, you know, that things, even when they appear to be lost they are not necessarily if you put the work in. You've been doing a lot in terms of promoting The Monkey Puzzle Tree at the moment, and I know that it's fantastic that you've— you're going through the process of making it into a film, but you've been interviewed by so many people in TV and radio and papers. Has there been one in particular where you've just gone Wow, that is a real tick in my box. There's, there's been so many, really, all, all the national papers, but not just here in Ireland. I mean, Scotland, we were standing in Scotland there, we've done, uh, 2 interviews there. That's coming out all over Scotland, BBC Scotland. Then the papers down there, they've started, all the top papers, The Mail and You know, um, it's just constant, constant. But for us now, we're, um, you know, I've been talking with New York a lot and the States. This is the latest thing. So, you know, we're talking to people like Good Morning America and things like that, Hazel. So it really— wow. Yeah, we're talking to— it just, it's, um, it keeps getting bigger. It really— there's immense work behind it, obviously, and specialist people and skills and, and stuff, you know. But But, um, yeah, it's unbelievable really. So we're, uh, we're doing a lot with the States now. And look, there's loads of press constantly that will be coming out still here, Ireland, uh, major national, um, already confirmed which has been done to come out. But there's a lot more coming really is the answer. And have you been doing a lot of it virtually, or have you been getting to go into the studio? Because this is the thing as well, all these people are trying to promote their books and do book signings and go here, there, everywhere and people just haven't been able to do it. And, you know, normally we would have done this interview in our studio in Covent Garden, but, you know, you can't encourage travel, we have to keep everybody as safe as possible, and a lot of workspaces, especially in London, with WeWork and places like this where they're all communal, or in London because it's so expensive, a lot of the rooms are a lot smaller, and it's just not feasible with with the current crisis. So everything's done virtually and people who hate tech have had to figure it out. How are you with tech? Have you enjoyed the whole virtual book tour? It's very hard for a lot of people, as a lot have said, and you know, I really want it to be better for all of us, you know, and I know there are people out there struggling with it and it's not good to see the world in this state, that's the truth. You know, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very progressive. And but, you know, it is what it is. I mean, we've been busier, you know, you know, because we're branding experts and, you know, we build brands and businesses and all that. So it's been crazy madness because so many people have had to reposition, restructure, rebrand what they're doing, go online. It's, it's, it's crazy. It's just changed so much. We do what we have to, don't we, Hazel, really, under these conditions? Yeah, it's amazing how so many people have adapted and found ways to make it work for them, and you know, what's happened with COVID has been horrific, and it's been, you know, people have had to transform their lives completely, but you know, it's forced a lot of companies to realize that yes, people can be trusted to work from home. Yes, you do get more out of people because, you know, they're not knackered from, from doing the commute or upset or dealing with mental health issues from the fact that they're not seeing their families as much. Or, you know, the work-life balance has been coming in there, and so I'm trying to focus on all the positives. People have had, especially during those that got to be furloughed, they've been getting a lot healthier, and it's, you know, you've got to try and look at the positive sides. Obviously it's very hard when you get emails from school telling you that there's a chance that the schools might be closed again. And has that come up for your youngest too? Yeah, we've had the same as everyone, we really have, and, you know, they don't really understand too much, but, you know, the main thing is people's safety. People have to live, you know, people have to live. So there, you know, there's a lot of pressure for a lot of people to reconfigure their lives because they still have the same problems, the same bills, the same hopes and dreams. Oh yeah, yeah. So yeah, is there something positive you can take from the current pandemic? Absolutely, you know, and it's a— it's just a classic example of how anything can happen, you know, at any time, you know. And tomorrow is not promised, promised to us at all. So some of the, some of the real gems that has been taken from this is that people have really been forced to go inwards, look at their own mortality, you know, how they're actually treating people, what they're actually doing with their time, you know, and what their futures actually look like, what is actually important. What is not that important, you know, what is, you know, and so this is a good thing, this has been a good thing. Yeah, it's got elements and we need to focus on taking the positive, even though obviously there are quite a few horrific negatives to the situation, but the fact is, for our mental well-being, we need to try and focus on, you know, positively attributing whatever situation we get in, in— if, if possible, use the, use the time wisely as well. You know, it's just about, all right, if you can't do A, B, and C, then you can do E, F, and G. Do that just as much. A, B, and C will come back, I'm sure. You know, you know, this is what we've done, and, um, we just caught up with other stuff, and we managed our time very, very carefully, and I I know we did, you know, we learned the lessons we was meant to learn. This is the key thing. Do you know what I remember just before, and probably about for about 6 months before, um, COVID happened, so many people were talking about how exhausted they were and how life was just spinning around way too quickly. And then bizarrely this happened, everybody had to stop still apart from the fantastic key workers out there who carried on, and it's all very well as going on, you know, about all these bankers and tech experts and whatnot, it was the supermarket workers and the bus drivers and the train drivers and all the emergency services that completely kept the world moving around, and I think it will do us all a favour to just remember who actually was was still needed during the pandemic and who was a little bit less relevant, to put it in the nicest way possible. And I think it just kind of gives us an opportunity to, you know, have a bit more grace. It is about grace, it really is. It really is about grace. That's a wonderful word. That's a wonderful word. And it's just the rushing about sometimes and all the madness of it, you know, The faster you go, sometimes we have to, then it's good. Sometimes we have to do that, but then we lose the detail. You know, the devil is in the detail, it really is. And anything's good, it's all about the details. So to slow down as well, you know, be aware of that is, is important. And things like grace and all that, they get, you know, we're not mindful of things like that sometimes when we're rushing so fast. Hazel? Yeah, and hopefully— I know I've definitely slowed down and I've really appreciated related the benefits of it. I would just— I just want to remind all of our listeners to get onto stephengilland.com, um, where they can also buy your book. But it can also— it's in Waterstones, Amazon, oh, any, any reputable bookshops, and also in Barnes Noble in the States as well. Um, and have you— are you impressed with how many books you've been selling and the responses you've been getting from people? Absolutely. It's strange because because it's sold out all the time. It's just crazy on a lot of them. Amazon are really doing the job because they're so big, but you know, it's just selling out so, so quickly all the time. You know, if you go on there and check it, I mean, our international supply lines are up so people can get it. No one's going to be deprived of the book. And you know, there are so many ways to get it online, and there's so much content online. But look, for people who who want a signed, uh, copy. And there has been so many. We're putting books out every week, and, you know, we put them out in a way that they're signed for, and we make sure that they really— they're really looked after when they get there. Uh, you know, there's a lot more other content about the story and interviews, you know, a lot of other stuff in there on, uh, www.stephenwithaphillen.com. They can go there and, um, get a personalized signed copy, Heather. And also you can get it on Kindle, uh, it's $5.99 on Kindle, and paperback, it's currently $12.43 on Amazon Prime, which means they can get it by tomorrow. So that's quite helpful, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, like I was saying, Amazon, it's, um, and the sun taking over the world is Amazon. No, you know, and, uh, that's the thing about, about the book trade, where, uh, they think they're the only game in town. In many ways they are, up to a point, but there's not, you know, there's also all the book trade as well. So there's this game between them. Oh, Maisel, but yeah, you know what, that's one of the things I missed in lockdown because my kids, um, they love reading and we used to go out for Sunday lunch quite a lot, and in the week as well, and there's a couple of my favourite bookshops. Some of them are independent, but we're a huge fan of Waterstones as well because it's run by people who also love books and they know their stuff, and you know, we would always make a journey specifically to go to a bookshop and then we'd all just sit there reading our books, and it's just better than not being on tech. You know, and we used to absolutely love it, and that was, that was part of a routine that obviously got, you know, slashed, unfortunately. And I'd like to kind of reinstate it again, but it's that whole situation where, you know, people going in, picking up books left, right, and centre, and it's just, we just can't do things the way we used to. But I can't wait to get back into that routine again and just picking up a book and actually just getting the kids to look around and hold it in your hands, and it's just, there isn't as much joy in buying. I love Amazon, I think it's fantastic, you know, you can get things really quickly, and especially during lockdown, in a way that, you know, you could get hold of things, but there's something about going out and experiencing, just actually being sociable and going into a shop and choosing your book because you've like browsed, like you would browse for a drum pad, you just look through and just see what there is, and I do miss that. Yes, the experience, it really is, it's all of it, you know, it's all of it, and I do hope it's going to get back to normal soon. I mean, it will, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm very sure, so, you know, we can get back to that, definitely. Hopefully, yeah. What is the one thing you've missed in lockdown? What are you looking forward to coming back Hi, um, I miss swimming. I really did. I really missed swimming. It was, you know, because I don't drink, I don't do none of that stuff, you know. We work really, really hard, but, you know, we like the, you know, the steam room and the gym and stuff like that, and being able to chill out and have some, some of the healthy stuff. And just, you know, that was really hard. I must be honest, missing that. Yeah, wow. Did you know what? It's quite interesting because I really miss going out to restaurants, and then as soon as they started opening again, I was like, ah, but I also miss having really low credit card bills during lockdown. So it's quite interesting. Yeah, yeah, the restaurants, I missed that too, you know. Good, you know, just going out with friends and that, you know, and having a wonderful bit of food, you know. That's one of our things too. So yeah, that was crazy, that It's kind of getting back to normal, isn't it? Yeah. And so we are— I mean, we've just got a couple of minutes of today's interview. I can't believe how the time has actually flown by. What do you want to tell our listeners? What do you want your— the listeners to get from your book? Why should they buy it? Because it's a human story which has got unbelievable traction all over the world, constantly in the national press, and it's going to be a major Hollywood film. That's not, that's not by chance. It's because this is a very unique story, human story, that takes, takes the reader through worlds that they wouldn't have been, been before, but in a really authentic, informative, brave, and emotional and entertaining way. They really love it, and they really identify with all the stuff I certainly go through. Hazel. Brilliant. And people need to read it before it comes out, um, as a movie, because you should always read the book first. Oh, absolutely. They'll be missing it if they don't, really. You know, it's not a lot of money, but the experience and what they'll get from it is really worth it, I'm telling you. Well, thank you so much, Stephen, for joining us here on Women's and Men's Radio Station. Please do send my love to your partner, the lovely Daphne. And, uh, and I, I I wish you well, and please do come back and tell us, and I want to hear who's going to play you as soon as you know. Oh, thank you guys, really lovely to be here. Thanks for, thanks for having us. Hi to all the listeners. All right, thank you very much, Stephen. Good luck. Bye.