Get Booked With Hazel Butterfield – Judy Bartkowiak, Understanding Children & Teens

Are you feeling anxious? Online Therapy 24/7 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 020 753 5080 and check out our website, onlinetherapy247.com. Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield and this is Get Booked. For those of you that aren't regular listeners, this show talks about books. Imagine that, with that title. Uh, we predominantly talk to authors about their new releases and the process of writing, going into detail about the topics covered, the mental health and well-being elements, and just discussing tips and giving you the extra special insight into a different book each week. And this week we're going to be talking about Understanding Children and Teens: A Practical Guide for Parents, Teachers, and Coaches by Judy Bartschkoviak. It's a fantastic book that really does break down so many different elements, and it was written in 2020, so there is reference to our current pandemic, and it's for coaches and practitioners, and there's so many different issues that kids have had to deal with throughout this year that it really is an invaluable book. It's now time for me to say, Judy, hi, how are you? Hi Hazel, lovely to meet you. Yeah, in our remote studio. It's so great to have you on here, you know, I've been reading this book and it's been interesting as well because both my kids have been going, "Oh no, she's gonna be asking us to do this, that and—" And it's— I've really enjoyed it and it's not— even if you don't have children, I find it's a great book just to understand ourselves and how we were as children and and just, you know, because it isn't just for parents, it is for coaches and it's for teachers as well, isn't it? Because teachers have had to deal with a lot of different issues this year. Absolutely, yes, they have. And I just, I mean, this book now is so dog-eared. I've turned pages back. I've had the kids, like, I've been sitting in my room because I find it a lot easier to read in my room because it's away from distractions, or I've got a little garden room, and I've been saying to the kids, taken it in turns depending on whether I was speaking to my— whether it was something I wanted to try on my 10-year-old or my— who's going to be 14 tomorrow, my eldest. And it's like, "Kids, kids, come in!" "Oh, what now?" And a lot of the practical exercises that you've given in the book, I've kind of tried it out on them because I like— I mean, this book is about empowering children, isn't it? Absolutely, you're right there, yes. And I find that, I mean, they're quite assertive children and they know that I read a lot of books that are similar to this, that are well-being focused and mental health focused and focusing on therapies as well. And they are quite good at kind of, you know, understanding the intricacies of what happens in their brain. But I've really enjoyed trying some of the exercises out on them and just kind of asking them what kind of person they thought they were. And there was a section in the book where you tried to reframe situations on, you know, how best to ask your child to do something. And some are visual and some are auditory and some are more practical and kind of— I found it interesting saying to my children, how would you prefer me to ask you to clean your room? Question, yes. And they gave me the answer and then you could see their face drop as soon as I did it. I was like, okay, so now 'Now that you've answered this question, I'm giving you the power to have me telling you to do something in a way that you've chosen as your preferred method.' That's really helpful for them. So, I mean, there's so many sections. I found it— I found— I mean, where do I even start? Do you know what? I'm so excited to talk about this book because I've been working through it so practically. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and why you came to write this book? Gosh, 3 hours later. I suppose really in a nutshell, I've been training coaches, therapists, NLP practitioners, hypnotherapists, and so on in NLP and EFT for years. NLP for 10 years, EFT for 2 years, nearly 3 years now. And that to add to their practice, being able to understand children and teens. And I decided that this year in January, before I knew anything about COVID I decided I'm gonna put like everything I know about working with children in a book. So initially it was— the idea was really to spread the word wider because, you know, I train people all over the world, but of course, you know, there are time zones, there are people working full-time, you know, and people who can't afford the training. Well, that's not that expensive, but you know, people who feel that they could do it from a book. So I wanted there to be this thing that was going to be, in a sense, a manual for them so that they could work with children. The idea being to spread the word, give more people these skills. So I was writing it beginning of January. Then COVID happened and clients— because I see children and teens all the time— moms were phoning me, 'Oh, what do I do? I can't cope with this homeschooling. They're shouting at me. I'm shouting at them.' my partner's upstairs trying to work and he's saying, "Keep the noise down," and I'm phoning the teacher and, you know, there was just absolute— there was just so much anxiety, anger, the low self-esteem issues were coming up because mums were sort of saying, "Well, I'm pretty competent at work, but how come I can't, you know, help my child with their maths?" And so this was just exploding all over the place. And so I decided, you know, this book needs to be for parents and teachers as well. So I went back really to the beginning. Well, I hadn't written much by that time. Obviously we were talking like March, weren't we? And I'd started in January. But yeah, I had to rewrite chunk, whole chunk of it, really aiming it at parents and teachers, which I had done before. I have a book called Be a Happier Parent with NLP that came out in 2011. And so I had written for parents and teachers before, and obviously trained and worked with parents and teachers. But this was really now broadening the whole remit of the book to encompass all. And that was in a sense quite difficult because my focus was much more on how to work with children and teens as opposed to being a parent too. So I needed to really spell out in many ways some of the exercises so that a parent who wasn't trained in any sort of coaching would be able to do it. And it's so heartening to hear that you've been practicing on yours. So, yeah, absolutely. Well, the thing is though, I'm a single parent, so I'm the one that kind of dishes out all of the instructions and makes them do this and that and whatever. And they see their dad every 2 weeks for the weekend, and they're allowed their computers and iPads continuously. Oh, I've heard this before, yes. So I'm the one that forces them to do this and that and whatever, and I'm the one that asks them to put their washing away and to to make sure that they're well behaved. You know, their dad, if he sees them every 2 weeks, he doesn't want to be bringing them up on their manners and this and that and whatever. And I appreciate that, but I am the bad parent, as are most lead parents. Even when the parents are together and in the same household, there's quite often very strict kind of one's in charge and the other one kind of maybe is away a bit more. And, you know, we do know every single teenager out there thinks that all their parents does is just get at them. And so I found it quite interesting, and we have been more stressed, we have been more kind of under a lot more pressure, and there's so much more that we're losing control of. The kids are kind of discombobulated, they don't know what's happening from one day to the next, whether they're going to get football training, whether they're going to be told that they have to suddenly isolate, and it is all very confusing and you know, myself, I felt like I'm losing control. And when I have got OCD, so when I feel like I'm losing control, it drives me a little bit potty anyway. And, you know, certain bursts of anger like you talk about in the book. But my eldest teen, my eldest son, I don't, I can't even find out what he's doing at school because it's all online. So I don't get to see any books or anything because they're not allowed to hand anything in. And it's all a bit, and he's, but he's also combined that with the fact that he's at that teen stage where, oh, just leave me alone. I don't need to see everything that I'm doing. You read the chapter on the drama triangle then? Oh, do you know what, I actually, we were at the bus stop yesterday, we're about to go and do our Christmas shopping, our annual Christmas shopping where they all kind of go off, we're in the same town together, but they go off and do their own things and I give them a credit card. And so we're just sitting at the bus stop and I went, "I was reading about the drama triangle this morning and I think I'm the victim, you're always having a go at me, so which out of you two would be the persecutor and which one would be the rescuer?" And they're like, "We're all the victim." and it was quite interesting. But, you know, parents, we are feeling like we're failing them just out of guilt because, you know, they can't have their friends over for their birthday, they can't, they can't go out and do things, they can't just have a friend over just for all the usual bits and pieces. And we're feeling guilt for so many different reasons, whether we're tired or worried about finances or the fact that we're not differentiating our home and our workspace. Because we're working from home more. It's just, um, it is a bit crazy. We don't know from one week to the next whether your kids are going to have to suddenly start isolating, and it is hard. And what you were saying before about cost-wise in terms of therapy, um, people are worried about— you don't just have one therapy session, you need to commit to quite a few. So it's— we know it's quite a big, um, outlay and commitment. So the fact that people can do this from a book which, you know, people can get hold of for £11.99, takes a lot of the pressure off. And it is practical, it's full of examples, it's full of exercises that I've done. And I didn't do all the exercises with my children because some of them weren't relevant, but I definitely turned the page back so I know that when I do need to, I can go back to it. It is— I have found it helpful. But there's one thing that I've always done with my children, which I think is one of the one of the best elements of your book is about giving them the choice. It's not a case of, will you do this, yes or no? It's how would you like to do this? And I think that is, that's so important. The fact that kids' frustration and their hormones, you know, a lot of it is to do with the fact that they feel like they're not in control. They're not in control. They're 10 or 13 or whatever. They're not allowed to make these main decisions. But we need to focus on the decisions that they can make. Absolutely. If I can just go back though, Hazel, you said about, you know, the commitment money-wise, just to clarify that. And what, what NLP, EFT, and to some extent CBT does is actually quite quick. It's not like, say, coaching where you come and you talk about it sort of week after week. Actually, the sessions I do with families are 4 to 6 sessions. We have an hour and a half session as sort of let's, let's check out what's going on here session where we use the sand tray, which is in the book. And what they do is they create their world using a sand tray. Just even your boy of 14 would really quite enjoy it. And they use dinosaurs and shells and Moshi Monsters and aquatic creatures. And they create their world, their home, their school, you know, both parents' home. And then we talk about how they would like it to be. So NLP and EFT, they're all about how we want things to be. Rather than the absence of the problem. It's about what we actually want. And then they recreate their world in the sand tray as how they want. And then we discuss what, you know, what we're specifically going to work on. And then we divide that between either 4 or 6 sessions. Usually the 6 sessions would be where I have a session with mum or dad first, then 4 with the child, and then one with the mum and dad to finish so that they can carry on the work. Book. Because if you think of the drama triangle, I don't want the child to be in a sort of codependent relationship with me. It's about empowering them. So the idea is that the techniques, the exercises in the book are exercises that mums can do, dads can do with their children, and that children can do for themselves so that they can actually— especially things like EFT, the tapping, You know, I show children how to do that in the first session, and they're tapping from day one on whatever it is that's coming up for them. Do you know what? When I— because the book is all about lots of different approaches, and it explains, you know, the details behind it and how to actually do the different therapies. When I was reading about the tapping, which I've not heard about before, I I basically found, I went onto YouTube and I found this fantastic 9-minute video of this woman going through the whole, you know how you explain all the different areas that you're supposed to go through, like the karate chop area and things like that. I did the whole kind of 9-minute, I call it a workout. Um, it is, yeah. I felt really relaxed and I know it's a bit, it's a bit similar to hypnosis, isn't it? Where you focus on a particular topic and you work through that. And when I was feeling a little bit stressed, I did the video again and it, it really helped. And the whole book, I mean, I, I, I might, I write notes when I'm reading books all the way through. And the main thing that kept on coming to my mind was Teach a Man to Fish. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And the tapping, I couldn't believe that tapping could actually help that much. It just, it really calmed me down. And, and so, and, and I know that they do meditation and things like like that in school to, to kind of bring people's mindset— focus their mindset. People, I mean children. But you said they do tapping as well, and I don't think they do at my son's school, but I think they need to know about it. Absolutely. And it's so easy to do. The, the tapping that they do in schools is mostly silent tapping, or what we call global tapping. But the silent tapping is just the— obviously the teacher will introduce it to the children during a sort of a lesson. It won't be just sort of thrown at them, but just an explanation of what happens and how to do it. And then they say, right, from now on at registration, we're all going to do some silent tapping. And all that happens is the teacher then just taps on the karate chop point. The other— the children all then follow, and they, they think about what it is that's going on for them that moment. It might have been an argument they had with mom or dad in the morning, or they didn't have time for breakfast, or they missed the school bus, or something like that. So they just start tapping on their karate chop point, and then when the teacher starts working through the points, they just follow. But silently, they're just tapping. In fact, I'm tapping as I'm saying this. You know, just tapping on whatever it is. You know, Mom was in a bad mood, Dad shouted at me, didn't have any breakfast, feeling hungry. And you just tap through what you're feeling. And the idea of that is that it puts them in a learning state right at the beginning of the day. And they do it again after the lunch break or after any break. Or if the class seems a bit disruptive or whatever. And what they find in the schools where they're using tapping is that children are using it with each other in the playground. So say if somebody's been a bit— you know, one child's been a bit mean to another child. I mean, it happens quite a lot. You know, somebody will go over to the child who's feeling a bit sad or looking a bit sad and just start tapping with them. Again, nothing needs to be said. And that's so in tune with the idea of the empowerment of the child, because the child is then taking responsibility to tap on what their issue is rather than somebody saying, What's wrong? Can I help? What happened? And then you've got to communicate it in a way, a certain way, as opposed to actually just getting on with it and just tapping for tapping on it. And in fact, I, I do a preschool parents course, and in fact, I was writing the module over the weekend for the preschool course on the Drama Triangle, and they've already learnt the tapping. And it's very much about being able to help babies and toddlers, you know, right at that really early age of helping them be able to get themselves to sleep. You know, I have a lot of clients who, who say to me, you know, my child's still coming into my bedroom, but, you know, they're 8 or 9, or calling out at night, and another mum has to sit outside the door. She chooses to do that, you know. And whereas, of course, if you teach children how to self-soothe, then you— then they can You know, they can, they can get themselves to sleep very easily. Tapping's great for, you know, for all of these things. In fact, it'd be hard to think of something that it doesn't work on. I think it's fantastic. And actually, if you think, I was thinking about this, you, I was thinking about children with special educational needs and disabilities, and you quite often see them tapping, and I'm assuming that's a tool they're being given to help themselves soothe. I don't know. I think that the tapping that they're doing, I'm not sure that it's EFT tapping. But, you know, if it's tapping on a meridian point and if they're tuning into what they're feeling, then it will work. Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, as you say, self-soothing, it's all about empowerment. Excuse me. And I found that a lot of the exercises are, they are about changing the mindset and empowering those. And I've done some of these exercises myself. And you know how it was quite a big thing a couple of years ago and people still do it now to write 3 positive things that you're focusing on the positive rather than the negative. And I think it's page— one of the first pages that I kind of creased back was page 7, My Skill Wall, where you're focused, you're getting children to focus on what they're good at and what their friends say they're good at and how they— what makes them feel good. And then they can focus on that, and that's like giving them a toolkit. Absolutely. And that's one of the reasons why it actually worked so quickly, because they come into me and they sort of start off their sort of session with all the things that are going wrong, all the things that are bad. You know, they'll say, sort of, I've got this anxiety, I've got this, I've got that. And actually, as I was describing about the Sand Tray, focusing then on what do you want, because the opposite of anxiety is not, not anxiety. The opposite of it is actually what they want. And, you know, when you're working with a child as a parent, teacher, or a coach, you know, what is their word for what they want? And it might be brave or confident or cool or, you know, popular, you know, whatever. That the opposite of anxious isn't calm. And but children will say, I have anxiety, or I have anger. You know, they'll, they'll focus on that thing they have, and the parent will focus on the thing that the child has that's negative. And what happens is that the more you focus on the, on that thing that is wrong, the more evidence you'll see of it. So, you know, if, say, you know, you're sort of thinking about your child all day, you know, and thinking, oh, I hope it's gone all right, hope, you know, nobody's been mean, I hope they haven't this, or hope the teacher hasn't that, and you're sort of focus, focus, focus on all the things that could have gone wrong, and then what happens is your child sort of walks through the door and you have that sort of face on you like, oh, was it all right, how was it? And what you're telling the child is, I'm really interested in what went wrong. And when— so this is why things can move quite quickly. When parents realize that and you talk to them about that and they actually change their own frame, like, I'm hoping they're having a really good day and really looking forward to seeing them, and, you know, can't wait to hear sort of, you know, how sort of, you know, such-and-such thing went today. They greet the child with a sort of, you know, much happier sort of, you know, how did it go? The child is then given the sort of the cue, if you like, that, oh, mum wants to hear what went well.. And when they, they then start getting into that pattern. So during the day, something goes well, oh, I must remember to tell mum about it, or dad. So, you know, there's an awful lot that we can do very, very quickly just by focusing on what went well. And, you know, even with people with, you know, children that I work with, teens working with sort of eating disorders, when they focus on what they're not eating, you know, that you get more evidence of it, whereas focusing on what small amount they have been able to eat is really positive for them. Them. So in lots of different ways, and you know, times when we feel brave, times we feel confident. Working with one girl who is really working towards being able to put her hand up in a lesson, and you know, so she puts it up once, I mean, that's something to celebrate. We're not focusing on all the times she didn't put her hand up, or the fact that she finds it hard. Focus on what you do do well rather than what you don't do well. I think I I read a book recently about who— that highlighted the fact that you will often notice what you're looking out for. If you're looking out for people smiling at you, then you'll see people smiling at you. If you're looking for people that are scowling at you, that's all you'll ever see. And it is about changing our mindset, and we have had our equilibrium kind of punched in the gut a bit this year, and we— it's very hard, and it's something that it's like learning to ride a bike. I mean, you've got, you know, you've got with anything, going to the gym, lifting weights, you've got to practice to kind of make it easier. Mm, absolutely. But it's nice that you're given tools on how to make life easier for yourself. And just sometimes it's a case of realizing what a difference it can make if you have these tools. There was this fantastic exercise where, you know, it's common sense, and I've actually been using this myself. It's common sense, but I didn't know it. Common sense isn't very common, is it? I'm going to read out this exercise because I absolutely love this, and I'm going to use this next time when my son's kind of struggling with something. So the exercise is to do with the child. Ask them to hold their non-dominant arm out at the side of their body. Tell them you're just going to push it down. They don't need to resist. It's not a strength test. This is just to give you a sense of what resistance would be there normally, a control if you like, then let them return their arm to where it was. Now ask them to think about a really happy time, getting a good mark or making a new friend. Push their arm down, they will be much stronger. They return their arm to the starting point. Now ask them to think about something a bit sad, such as getting a bad mark or mum telling them off. Push their arm down, you'll find it much easier to do. The arm is the same, your pressure is just the same. The only difference is their thoughts, the power of positive thoughts. And that's such an easy exercise. It can be used with so many different things. Absolutely. It's all in the body. The mind and the body are one. They're connected. It's a, it's a bit like the eye accessing one as well, where you look up to your right and imagine what something will look like when you're doing it well, and look at your ear level to the auditory, um, as to what it's going to sound like. And then look down to how it's going to feel. And what you're doing is like a mental rehearsal. And it's just amazing how when we actually imagine ourselves doing something in the moment and doing it how we want to do it, you're creating a possibility. Whereas if you just focus on not being able to do a thing, then, then you won't. You know, what's— who is it? Henry Ford, who said, if you think you can do a thing, you will, and if you think you can't do a thing, you won't. Yeah. Yeah, really simple, but it's so true, isn't it? It's— but it's so hard. I can— I, I do know that, you know, these things take more practice for some, some, but, you know, we are all different, and the, the variety of different therapies and practices and exercises and examples in this book means that there's something for everybody, don't you think? Yes, that's the idea really, and, and that's how it has to be as a coach, obviously, because You know, I have different, different ages and different, different types of children. Some will want to, you know, be outside and moving if they're kinesthetic. They don't want to be sitting there. Somebody else might want to do something visual. We might do some drawing. We might do a crystal timeline. Somebody else might want to do something else. You know, you, you really go with what, you know, what their preference is because they're going to be more invested in, in, in the process. Well, yeah, exactly. And that's the thing, that there were some chapters that I read and I thought, you know what, I find this really interesting, but I know that this isn't going to work with my children. I know that I wouldn't be able to get my teenager to do the kind of forced laughter. Oh, Mum, just leave us alone. Why can't you just read some fictional book about romance? But, you know, every child is different and And you know, as you said, there were 3 different kinds of children and how they prefer to be taught or spoken to. And was there a particular chapter that you loved writing the most? I suppose probably the art therapy because it's— I think what I love about art therapy so much is when a child says to their parent, I really need help with something 'cause I don't see children unless they are actually wanting to change, that they want to do something about it. I don't have children, like, brought to me by a parent. So they've said they want some help. They come in expecting to sort of sit and be asked questions, and when they come in and they see sort of glitter glue and felt pens and paper and sand trays and dinosaurs and— Lego, that you could just see them saying to themselves, I'm going to enjoy this, and that's what I want. And you automatically then reframing this whole, oh dear, I've got a problem, and they're in victim, and they're, I need help, and this is awful. Immediately you've reframed it to, to, this is something I'm going to enjoy, I'm going to have fun, I'm going to learn something about myself, and I'm going to, I'm going to make it, I'm going to make changes. And in that very first session, they, they learn enough to make initial changes. And they, you know, that after the first, you know, hour and a half sort of introductory session that we have, they already have got some ideas. And so is the parent, because the first session is with parent so that they can, you know, they can work together. And then the first, you know, the first session just with the child, they've already made made changes. They've already put a few bits together and joined up the dots, and they're noticing their own patterns. So, I mean, I remember one boy, in the first 15 minutes, he used the word 'just' so many times, you know, 'I just scored 2 goals,' or, you know, 'Oh, it was just 60%, just this, just that.' And I said, 'Do you realize that the word— you know, is this a pattern? Do you use this word a lot?' 'And his mum said, oh yeah, he does actually.' And she hadn't really noticed because you don't really, your own child perhaps. And I said, 'Do you realise that the word just is minimising? You're sort of making little of what you've done. I mean, 2 goals, that's amazing.' And I said, 'What I'd like you to do for a week is just to notice when you do that and change and say the sentence again in a different way.' And when I saw him a week later, He said, "Oh, I feel so much happier. I feel so much more confident." And, you know, within the 4 sessions, he was getting better marks at school. He was, you know, talking to more people. He was just feeling so much more empowered, so much more confident. Because he— whereas if, say, somebody has got more of an anger problem, the word "just" is really useful there. Because, you know, if they get really angry because somebody you know, hasn't talked to them that morning. It's just one morning, it's just one person. Or if they've got, you know, sometimes do work with sort of sports, you know, elite sports children. I mean, they're sort of, you know, youngsters. And, you know, if they get sort of like a temper tantrum on the football pitch because they, you know, they missed a penalty or they missed a goal or they missed something or other, and they stamp their feet and they shout at the ref, and if they get sent off, they can't then play in matches and things. But when you teach them that actually you can use the word 'just' in a really positive way— it's just one goal, it's just one whatever, just one double fault— so just one simple word can make such a difference. And it's— sorry, no, it's just reframing The words that we use is so powerful, especially when, oh, I always do this wrong. No, you don't. You did it wrong on Monday and you did it right on Tuesday. Okay, okay. Um, it's, it is so powerful, and I do try and kind of drill that into my children as they do try and do it to me as well. You never pick your stuff up. Yeah, we do. Yeah, once a week. Um, but it is, it is quite interesting. And going back to what you said about the art therapy, I I have my son's friend who I also speak to quite a lot, started therapy and it really didn't work and it was starting to make him really upset that nobody could help him. And then eventually they suggested art therapy and it just sparked different neurons. It just— it's the same with writing, isn't it? The actual typing is different. Actual writing forces your brain to you know, be sparked in a different way, as can art for some people. And this child who was going through, um, the gender transformation was extremely upset that nobody could even help. And now, because of art therapy, he's finding a way to actually vocalize or express what he's going through. Absolutely, yes. And there's so many people that just give up at the first— if, if what has— is known as a traditional therapy, it's not working, there are hundreds, thousands of different therapies out there. Absolutely. And with art therapy, remember that the language of your subconscious mind is image and color. And you can— so, and also with the art, it takes you back to your sort of younger self, your younger child self. So, you know, sometimes giving, say, a, you know, a boy of 14 some Lego Serious Play and saying, model of what friendship means to you, You know, they're totally delighted. But if you ask them about what's, you know, how do you feel about making a friend, they've got to verbalize it. But I can tell by what they do with a model, by the color and knowing what color connects to what and the emotions. And in any case, I would ask, you know, tell me about the green, tell me about the orange, tell me about the red. And, and that's using clean language, which is explained in the book as well, that we sometimes put our own map of the world onto the child's map. Map. It's not the same. I mean, you know, green to me may be different to green to you, you know. And so it's what, what does that colour mean to them? So they're— I always get— I remember reading a book by Janna Moore called Shine Brighter Every Day, and she talks about what receptors are kind of sparked with different colours and different foods. And so whenever I think of art therapy and what what the different colours mean. The reason that McDonald's and Nando's and all these and KFC use reds and yellows is because they're what spark certain receptors to make us a little bit more drawn to their product. And so it is quite interesting when you kind of break it down that no, no logo or any colour that's used in any advertising is just because it just looks pretty. There's a lot of reasons behind it, aren't And the same with the colors that we wear, the colors they wear. They all relate, you know, to the chakras. And, and also it can tell you quite a lot, and it can help people to wear a color that is actually their happy color. I mean, obviously they have school uniform, but they can wear their happy color, you know, underneath their school uniform or in a pocket. I actually— my son wears odd shoe— odd socks to school, and he's my youngest, he can get away with it, that they're supposed to be dark socks but they're really not that bothered. But it's because he likes to express something, and it's very rare that he'll wear black, grey, or white socks. He'll wear bright blue, and quite often they'll be odd because he— that just makes him happy and it gives him, you know, he just enjoys it. Yeah, well, bright blue is about communications, he's expressing himself. Yeah, yeah, he loves it. I mean, I quite often do it as well, especially if I feel like I need a bit of a pick-me-up I make sure I don't wear matching socks. But to be honest, I've got to be careful what I say on this show sometimes, because I think some therapists would have an absolute field day with me. But I did, I got very excited about when you were talking about clean language. I quite often had to put the book down and rethink some of the phrases that I use. Can you just explain to our listeners the concept of clean language and how parents can use clean language with their children? Well, the cleanest language is silence. Yeah, where you just give them a look. I find that works quite well. I'm sure we all have a little range of looks that our children know very well from, you know, from babyhood. I mean, the children look at our face from being a tiny baby, from when they're born, they're focused completely on our face. So we can do quite a lot with our facial expressions. So if we do it with intent rather than perhaps not being aware of how we're looking. And then asking, I'd say the next cleanest to silence and the look is probably the quite deliberate questioning look, where you're sort of, "Hmm." That's a good look. And then there's a "tell me more" sort of look. So using those sort of body language, because remember, body language is much more, you know, we notice that so much more than what's said. And looking at them, of course, when we're talking to them, rather than being in another room, which I think happens quite a bit. And then after that, it would be simply to repeat the last word they said. So if you want to have a go, just sort of saying something to me, and I'll I'll demonstrate that. Oh, what should I— oh, you've put me on the spot. Sorry, something you might say to one of your children. I have asked you to pick up your pants from the bathroom floor. The bathroom floor? Sorry, it should be something your child might say to you, shouldn't it? Oh, okay, okay. Why won't you— oh, oh, oh. Oh, okay. Sorry, I've landed you in it. You have, yeah. Sorry, so say if your child says to you, "Why should I brush my teeth?" Ha! Yeah, go on. "Your teeth." You know, in a sense you're not saying something, but what you're saying is— probably not a very good example— but what you're saying is, "I hear you, and I'm just back at you, your teeth." So you've just repeated what they're saying. Or if they're saying, "I just can't do this maths homework." "Can't?" or "Your maths homework?" So you're sort of in the space with them, responding to them, saying, "I've heard you." And instead of saying, "Of course you can," where when you say, "Of course you can," what you're saying is, "You're also wrong. Not only can you not do your maths homework, you're actually wrong in thinking you can't do your maths homework." maths homework. Well, you're projecting, you're projecting a thought onto them, aren't you? So it's rather than— so the clean language is just trying to not put an opinion or a thought. You're just trying to engage without actually imposing anything. So you're, you're trusting, you're accepting their map of the world, you're in, in their map of the world, but you're not invading it. So you're not changing it, you're just accepting. This is how you— I accept that that's how you feel right now, and it's interesting that you feel like that. And of course, we can add on things the hypnotic embedded command where you might say, and when you've done your homework, I'm wondering what snack you'd like. So then what you're doing is you're assuming that they will do it by saying the when. But really, with the, the other examples, back to the Clean Language, is tell me about. So tell me about the— tell me about what it's like when you can't do your maths homework. So you're using their language, keep with their language. So tell me about what it's like to feel like, I can't do my maths homework. What will you do after? Or who does know, who can do your maths homework? When will you be able to do your maths homework? I don't know why I'm picking on maths. They seem to find a struggle with maths. That's mirroring, isn't it, as well? So you're using their language in a questioning way. So tell me about, what's that like when, When will you be able to? So you're not contradicting them, you're asking, you're inviting them to tell you a bit more about it and to delve a little bit deeper into it. See, we're quite a sarcastic family. I was brought up up north, so it's kind of ingrained in my psyche. And what I quite often say to my oldest son is, I will say, when you're walking the dog, can you think about what you would like to have for dinner? So instead of, please, can you walk the dog? Dog. Yeah. And I do quite often now, he realizes what I'm doing and he'll go, "I don't know what I want for dinner because I didn't get a chance to walk the dog." And I'm like, "Right, okay." He's finding ways around it. That's very, very ingenious of him. Yes, it's clever at the same time as it is annoying. You can admire it and yet be annoyed. Yes. I'm so inspired by your ability to turn back my own behaviour on you. Sounds as if there's a lot of laughter in your home. Sometimes, yes. It can be quite frustrating as well, especially when— I mean, I'm lucky that the 10-year-old hasn't learnt how to use too much of my sarcasm and my kind of conditioning against them. But my oldest is very in tune, bless his little cotton socks. But yeah, I do find that I've been a victim— not a victim, maybe a victim— of not using enough clean language with my children. Yeah, I think a lot of parents do make— we make assumptions, don't we? Because we know better, we're older, we're wiser, and we think we know them, so we make assumptions. And that's really the dirty language bit, where we assume something things. So when, you know, "You're deliberately annoying me," well, they may not be, you know. So we sort of think we know, so we make assumptions, we summarise things, we pracy things. So, "What you're saying is," you know, whereas that might not be what they're saying. So it's just about being a bit more respectful perhaps and giving them the chance to have another go at understand— you know, at saying what they want to say. You know, so you might say, 'It sounds— it sounds— could you just, you know, could you just talk me through this again? Can you just tell me more about that?' So you're asking them to explain it a bit, you know, a bit differently, you know, to try another way of doing it, because it could be that maybe even in so doing they're understanding more for themselves. What I did find interesting as well is, is the difference between how we speak to our children and wonder why we don't get the same respect as we do when we speak to our friends. Yes. Or our work colleagues, and yet they're completely different. You know, if you want a work colleague to do something for you, you go up to their desk and they go, hey, how are you doing? Could you do this for me please? Or could you assist with this? Whereas at home we might shout from the living room 'Can you bring him a hot water bottle?' And then you wonder why you're not getting the same response. That's right, yeah. And also we might think that they won't. You know, a lot of parents when they're talking to their children, they say the same thing day after day, knowing that they won't do it. And of course the child knows that, and you know that, and yet we say it. So why do we do that? And, you know, one of the sort of presuppositions really is if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. I was just about to say that, and you use that quite a lot in your book, but it's brilliant. It's like, why are we banging our head together going, "I ask you to do this every single time and you never do it." Well, we need to try a different way then, and we need to try a different approach. Yes. What would happen if you didn't say anything, you know? I remember there was one One mum that I was talking to in a— it was in a sort of a mum's workshop that I was doing, and she said that it was a sort of course, and she said that her son drove her mad. I think it was sort of same age as your oldest, that he just left his dirty clothes all over the floor of his room, and she said, he just leaves all the clothes on the floor, he just expects me to pick them up and put them in the washing machine. So there's dirty language as well as dirty undies. Because she's assuming that that's exactly what he's doing, he's just dropping them there, Mum will pick them up. I'm sure that wasn't what she was thinking at all. So she said, "And every time I shout at him and it still happens." So I said, "Well, what would happen if you didn't, if you just closed the door?" "Oh," she said, "I hadn't thought of that." Anyway, she did do that, she just walked along the corridor closed his door so she didn't have to look at it. And she said the next time her son was sort of mentioned it, he said, 'I haven't got any clean pants.' And she said, 'Well, you should have put them in the wash then.' And he said, 'Oh right, what am I going to do?' And she said, 'I don't know.' And he never did that again. I like that. I mean, I did something very similar with my son one's sports kit as well, that he'd left it in the bag. And I was like, well, that's down to you then, isn't it? I have asked you a million times, you can't— I've told you a million times not to exaggerate. Something like this, something my dad used to always say. What I do do as well, if my eldest, you know, teenagers, they like to spend at least 23 and a half hours in their bedroom a day. And my eldest will quite often come to get some squash and then go back into his room. So if he hasn't done something that I've asked him to do, I'll hide the squash. Ah, yes. And so that he has to actually interact with me. Yes, that's a good one. Yes, I remember writing little notes. I remember once actually with my son, he didn't put his dishes away in the dishwasher, so I put some Post-it notes from where he would sit to the dishwasher with arrows on pointing to the dishwasher. Oh, sorry. That's actually something called coaching with humour, which I didn't put in the book, but that's something, you know, perhaps the next book or something. But, you know, it is something that we can do is when we reframe something and find the funny angle on it, because children are so much more responsive I wrote a message for him once as well, a poem on the loo, because he kept missing the loo. And I sort of put a poem on the, on the flush thing, on the— what you call it— the cistern, to do with that, and about sort of, you know, making sure he aimed it correctly and put the seat down and flushed and stuff like that. And he thought that was really funny. But worse than that, he said, what if, what if one of my friends kids had seen it, and I said, well, there you go. There you go, you would have been embarrassed. I did actually do one talking about coaching with humour. I'm getting— I am, as I said, I do have OCD. There's certain things I can't have in the house, and my son every day always leaves his outdoor coat thrown on the floor and leaves his uniform on the floor, and there's various kind of sweetie wrappers and things like that. And it's the, it's the, well, the main 3 things that I always get annoyed with. So the other day And I'm sure you can imagine, having had teenagers, um, how annoying this would have been. I sat in his room with my book, and I sat there and read it on his bed so he couldn't get on it until he'd done everything he was supposed to do. But to, to put his coat away, it meant he had to leave me unattended in his bedroom. Trust. Well, that's the thing, he didn't want to do that, and I knew that I would be able to stay there longer than he'd be able to hold out. So I stayed in his room until he'd done everything he was supposed to do. And I said, next time I come in here and I find everything out of place and not put away where it was supposed to be, I'm going to bring my book back in and I will read for as long as I want to until your room is the way I want it. Do you understand? He's like, I don't want you in my room. Like, well, there you go, you know what you need to Yeah, well, I mean, whatever works really. We did have a standoff for at least 20 minutes, and then he realized he wasn't going to win, and he— I think he wanted to text somebody, and he couldn't do that if I was near him. That's right. I mean, it is about boundaries, isn't it? It's, it's about, you know, and these sort of— some of these sort of things actually can create illnesses as well, you know, migraines and headaches is usually connected to boundary issues. If you're somebody who can't say no or won't stand their ground and get their needs met, like, you know, by you sitting on his bed with your book, you were saying, no, you've crossed a boundary, that's it, I'm putting my foot down now, you know, and this is how it's going to be. So you're expressing your boundary, but a lot of parents find that quite difficult to do, and as a result, when we have boundary issues we get headaches. And it's the same as if you squash down your anger and don't actually express it, you know, express your needs. You can get indigestion. That lower back is connected to, you know, low self-esteem. You know, our body has a message, has messages for us. So quite often, you know, not so much with, with children, but with mums, when I'm working with mums, we'll work on some of the things that are going on for them which are being expressed through their body because they can't express express it perhaps in words to their children, or don't want to shout at them, or don't want to do this or the other, it all just builds up in their body. And then we get told off for when we actually end up exploding for something simple, like they didn't empty the dishwasher. That's right, because we've gone from victim to persecutor in that moment. Yeah. There's so many other questions I want to ask you based around tips and that you could provide for other listeners as well. But there's this section on page 128 that I mentioned at the beginning of the interview about the 3 different examples I gave to my youngest son about how he'd prefer to be asked— oh yes— to tidy his room. So there's the auditory option, which is, "I've told you 10 times to tidy your room, you're not listening." Yeah. The visual one, I've 'Just look at the state of your room. I can't see any clear carpet space at all.' And then there's the third option, which is, 'Will you just get a move on and get that room sorted? Otherwise you won't be able to find anything.' And that's kinesthetic. Yeah. And it was actually the third one that struck with my son because he does get panicked when he can't find things. Mm-hmm. Yes, so he'd be kinesthetic. I mean, they don't— they may be more than one thing. I mean, I'm auditory kinesthetic. I'm very weak on my visual thing, which is probably why I didn't want to look at myself on the screen. So I'm not particularly visual, so asking me to look at something, you know, I perhaps wouldn't notice it. But you would be two of them, probably auditory-kinesthetic. Some people visual-auditory, some are predominantly kinesthetic, which perhaps your son is. But when they're kinesthetic It's doing words, action words that you need, like get, as I said, like get a move on, get up those stairs. Or if, say, mentioning about brushing teeth, you know, how fast can you brush your teeth? You know, which— and, or even just asking them to be curious. When you brush, when you brush your teeth, do you brush from left to right or up to down? Or just asking them a question about the thing that they're doing. So yes, and of course you can combine all three. You can. I think it depends on the subject matter as well. Does, yes. Now I do ask, there's a few questions that I like to ask all of my guests on Get Booked here at Women's and Men's Radio Station. What would be your 3 top tips on mental well-being, keeping in mind that you're a very active person, aren't you? You, so I think I kind of know how this is gonna go. You were— you're into cycling and tennis and walking and dancing and everything, so I think it's going to be a little bit physical. But what would be your top 3 tips? I would say to be fully present in what— where you are right now, to be fully present. To be fully present in the moment rather than thinking what you're going to have to do, what you've just done. So like, I'm— moment I'm talking to you, Hazel, I'm totally 100% focused on you. When we're 100% focused in the present, we're not imagining what might happen or what has happened, which is where anxiety tends to lie. And anger can be like, I bet he hasn't done that, you know, you're thinking ahead. So yes, being fully present would be one. Checking in with your body as well. So I suppose, yes, physical— just check in with your body. What are you feeling? You know, you're feeling any tension around your shoulders, because that can be about responsibility. So maybe just, you know, give them a bit of a jiggle and a move and just think about, is there something I'm not— you know, some— is there some way that I need to address some aspect that I need to feel responsible for? It's my mum's birthday this, this week, so there might be something a bit on my left shoulder because the left side is the female side. So yes, just checking in with my body. I also use essential oils and I use meditation and mindfulness. So probably around meditation, mindfulness, being fully present. Those are the things I'd say. Look after yourself. You know, it's like, you know what they say in aircraft— not that we've been on any lately— but, you know, put your own oxygen mask on first and then see to your child. You know, check how you're feeling, you know, before you go in and rant at the child or be upset by something that they've just said or something that they've done, like leaving a coat on the floor. Just check with yourself, you know, how important is this actually? You know, do I want to make a scene about this? Is this important enough Is it important enough, really, in the whole scheme of things? Just to sort of, just to check in with yourself first. And if it is, then fine. But then once we've checked in with ourselves that yes, it is important, then you're going to approach it in a calmer way than if you're just doing that automatic thought. You know, I mean, CBT is all about, you know, what is your automatic thought? You know, have you catastrophized? Have you generalized? Would somebody else make the same, you know, think the same as you? You know, just catch on to that automatic thought and just sit with it in the present and just think, okay, just, you know, would somebody else make such a fuss? Why is it so important? Is it really this important? What other thing could I do instead? You know, I do quite often— we all lose it, it's just human nature— if I feel that myself or my children are about to lose it about something, I say, right, go 'Go and take 5 minutes and then come back and think about whether you really want to carry on down this route.' But I also say that, you know, if you do lose it, if you do say something that really wasn't very nice or that you reacted irrationally, again, go off and think about it and come and see what you want to do to rectify that. I mean, I've done things where I've shouted at my kids and, you know, sometimes they deserve it, sometimes they don't. And I will make a point of saying, 'Actually, do you know what?' I apologize, that was way over the top, I shouldn't have behaved that way, and we kind of talk it through. But likewise, you know, my kids will do the same. And if you fly off the handle and you recognize that it was your issue and you apologize, I think it's worth its weight in gold. Absolutely, you're spot on. And that's, you know, I talk in the book about modeling, and what you model for your children is so important. The fact that you're able to be the sort of, you know, the bigger person in a sense and say, "Hey, I got that wrong." And what that does is show them how to do the same thing, and that's what you want, absolutely. Yeah, it's nice to also read books like this and sometimes, you know, realise that you're doing things right as well as finding different ways to kind of carry on as well, because, you know, we don't get everything right, but we don't have to either. Can you imagine if we were perfect? How hard would that be for our children to live up to? I think I'd have loved to, in another world, come back as your child. I think it sounds like it sounds quite fun. Well, can you tell them that? Anyway, another thing that I like to, to ask my guests is, is there anybody in the public eye at the moment that you think is smashing it out of the park in terms of being in somebody to watch and to admire? I know this is— there's some interesting ones, and it depends on whether it's been to do with whether it's somebody who your children see, or whether it's— I mean, for me, I like the likes of Fearne Cotton because I think she shows her vulnerabilities very well, and, you know, she doesn't always look perfect. But she's got quite an honest vulnerability to her, and when so many people look up to her, I think that's fantastic. But there's people, you know, in politics as well that are— I'm trying to think. I mean, I've just been watching The Crown, and, you know, it might be a contentious thing to say, but watching the episode of how the Queen was with that intruder, Fagan— I don't know whether you've been following The Crown— you know, somebody broke into her bedroom, which would be absolutely freaked me out. And started telling her about what it's like for people who are struggling, who haven't got jobs. You know, this goes back into the '80s, I think, when people didn't have jobs and they were struggling. His fear makes him do terrible things. And yes, and she was so calm and genuine, seemed genuinely interested in him. And I just thought, you know, you are really— that That is just so amazing to have. Well, that's humility, isn't it? Fantastic. Do you know what? I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting to you, and again, as ever, we're running out of time. Please do go and get Understanding Children and Teens. It's just— search it everywhere. It's on Amazon especially. Thank you so much for chatting to us today, Judy. My pleasure, my pleasure. And hopefully we'll speak to you again soon. That's great. Do support your local bookshops, please. Are you feeling anxious? Online Therapy 24/7 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 0207 553 5080 and check out our website, onlinetherapy247.com.