Get Booked – Penny Batchelor, Her New Best Friend 090821

Hello, you are listening to Get Booked with me, Hazel Butterfield, for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. Today we have on the show Penny Batchelor. Who writes domestic noir thrillers with secrets, lies, and lots of twists. Her debut, My Perfect Sister, was longlisted for The Guardian's Not the Booker Prize of 2020, and her second, which we're going to be talking about today, Her New Best Friend, published on the 5th of August of this year by Red Door Press. Her New Best Friend is a twisting tale of intrigue and deception, the lengths a mother will go to in order to protect protect her children, and what happens when your worst nightmare as a parent comes true. Now, I love The Perfect Sister, as did so many others, and I have been storming my way through my preview copy of The New Best Friend, deliberately not finishing the book until after our chat so there were no spoilers, because I get super excited. Regular listeners will know that. Now, I must introduce you Tupenny, hi, how are you? I'm brilliant, thank you Hazel, and hello everybody, and thank you for having me on the show. I'm so pleased to hear that you're enjoying the book. Oh, I absolutely love it, I love your style, and my kids know that they're going to be ignored for the rest of the afternoon because I know what I'm like sometimes, I get so excited and tongue-tied and I have to stop mid-conversation because I know, oh no, I'm gonna do— release some spoilers or something so you know the point at which I'm at, and I can be speaking to you in a way that the listeners can have the same amount of intrigue, because I'm not sitting there going, "Na na na na na, I know what happens." I know what you mean, because it's really difficult for me to talk about this book without giving anything away, so at some point I might just have to shut up and say, "Well, read it to find out." My previous one, My Perfect Sister, that was a bit easier to talk about because sort of things happened a bit later on, but you get pretty much straight in the action with this one. So I will try and reveal what I can but not give anything away. I shall be sitting on my hands and doing a zippy. Well, it did get to a stage because obviously I read the first one and that changed so much throughout that you kind of, you could talk about it without making, without giving away too many spoilers, whereas this one halfway through I kind of knew that if I mentioned anything from then on, it kind of gives the game away a little bit as to what direction it's going to go in. Now, I know that you're very kindly going to give our listeners a little bit of a preview of the book, which I'm super excited about. And do you want to just let everybody know what they're going to be hearing? You're going to be hearing the first 2 and a half pages of the book, which is something that I can give away. Yes, it's right at the beginning. Do you want me to start now? I'd love you to, yes please. Thank you. Well, just to set the scene, the book is written from the perspective of Audrey. She's a mum in her 30s with 2 children, and she's in a park with those 2 children. I didn't turn my back on the pram for much longer than a snatched handful of seconds, a few heartbeats, but that was all the time it took for my 5-year-old daughter Antonia to turn on their heel and dash after the fluttering wings of a yellow-breasted great tit in the local park. Seconds. Ordinary passages of time which on a regular day we don't think twice about the passing of, or maybe even long to pass by more quickly. A few of them, however, as every mother knows and fears, is all it takes. Antonia, I anxiously call out, don't run off. I let go of the pram's handles and try to walk as fast as I can to reach my daughter, who is heading in the direction of the trees following her quarry. Come back! It has felt like such a long day, as if 24 hours have passed before 3:30 PM. My voice cracks slightly when I try to prevent my usual sing-song mummy tone from turning into barbed impatience. Having short legs seems to make it more difficult today for me to catch up with my child, on whom my husband James and I always impress the importance of staying close by when venturing outside the home. Easy to say, isn't it? But not so simple for easily distracted children to do when something has caught their eye. Antonia turns when she hears my name, and I see the expression on her little flushed face betray her internal debate on whether to continue her wild bird chase or come back to me. I win. Antonia starts to do as she's told and run back to me when we both hear a shout coming from near the pond at the centre of the municipal park. Instinctively, I turn back to the pram. It's not there. My heart beats ferociously and I sense the acrid taste of adrenaline in my mouth. For a split second, I'm frozen. I stare down towards the bottom of the path the three of us walk on nearly every day. A soggy small blonde figure is pulling a pram out of the shallow area of the pond. My pram. Time freezes into an icy shock until I scream, 'Wilfred!' in fear. I reach for Antonia's gloved hand and pull her as quickly as I can towards the pond. Most of the water is surrounded by a low concrete wall adorned with the usual detritus of crisp packets and drinks cans visitors couldn't be bothered to put in a nearby litter bin. But this small area where ducks paddle and wait to be fed isn't. Instead, there is a little sorry patch of grass between the end of the paved sloping path and the brown sludge that the pond's waters gently lap against. "It's okay, I've got the baby!" shouts the soggy figure, a woman wearing a now-wet hooded long black puffer jacket and bright peach lipstick. That makes her resemble a portly penguin. "The baby's all right!" A high-pitched wail punctuates the end of the sentence, Wilfred expressing his displeasure, a noise I've sighed at so many times in the middle of the night but now couldn't be happier to hear. At last I reach the pram, dragging my daughter with one hand and stretching out for my son with another. Wilfred is still tucked in under the knitted patchwork blanket my mother-in-law made for him. He's safe. Oh, thank God he's alive and evidently still has good use of his lungs. But what have I done? How can I have put him in danger, this little boy who means the world to us all? That's it. And Penny, how fantastic that a lovely stranger was there just to randomly help and be the Good Samaritan that she is. Yes, well, it's always good when strangers help out, isn't it? You know, you can rely on people's good nature, or not, as the case may be. It was interesting when I was reading this because I've got 2 children and I've been there, you know. There are— I don't think I know any parents who haven't been struck by dealing with tiredness and paranoia and imposter syndrome when something happens, and sometimes, you know, You do things automatically. You don't know whether you've remembered to put the brake on your pushchair or— there's so many things that you do and then some busybody who has an opinion that just makes you feel quite small. And this is what young parents have to deal with all the time. But what this book deals with is when there's so many other people turning screws and, you know, playing on those feelings of insecurity insecurity and throw in a good old dosage of jealousy as well. And that's, that's your next novel, isn't it? It is. I had great fun writing it, yes, because I like writing domestic noir because I'm very well behaved in real life, but it's nice, nice to be like what I could do if I wasn't. And so I can have all those feelings and all those experiences on the written page. You can live vicariously through your characters. Yes, you can. And quite often actually, the worst characters who are the most fun to write. Oh, completely. Yeah. What's one of my favourite things that I like talking about or posting on my book-related socials is, you know, the person that reads and writes fiction gets to live so many different lives. That's true. I mean, that's one of the— I mean, I'm an avid reader myself, and the beauty of fiction is that you can see parts of the world or experience sort of different lives that you have never done in real life, and you can see the world through different people's eyes as well, and, uh, and also have a very good time whilst you're doing it. Oh yeah, completely. You can have some serious fun with it, uh, and I kind of feel like you did because there's so many so many different characters in this story that I've come across that I just, I mean, I'm sitting there just going, I kind of think I know this person, that's so-and-so in my friendship group. And it kind of, it focuses on the importance of friendships as well, and especially when Audrey, the main character, talks about a friend of hers who struggled with fertility and kind of had to let her go for her own mental health and mental well-being, which basically And particularly, you know, this is something that's happening so much at the moment, and it's very hard for people. I mean, Audrey, the character, she struggled with fertility as well. And it's interesting that you've approached these topics and how I can see it. I mean, I remember when I was struggling to get pregnant with my second child and all my antenatal group were getting pregnant you can't help it, but it's that natural instinct to kind of be extremely jealous. And, you know, her friend had to cut herself off from Audrey to kind of protect her own well-being. And you refer to it as like, as a heartbreak, because it is. I, you know, when friendships have failed for me, it's been like something you've had to grieve. And you touch on so many different elements. Now, one of the main elements that I want to talk about, about this book, where you only slightly touch on it, and it's only referred to occasionally because it's not particularly relevant to the story, is ability diversity. Yes, that's right. I don't mention it straight away in the book, although there are a few little clues. In that extract that I read out, I mentioned Audrey's short legs, and Audrey actually has restricted growth, which she was born with, a genetic condition. But again, I don't mention it straight away because, well, it's not relevant. It's part of who she is, but the book isn't about what it's like to have a disability. It's a thriller. But it's really important to me to recognize the diverse society that we live in because I'm, um, I was born with a physical disability as well. And when I read books right from being a child right up to now, I've very rarely seen anybody like me in those books. I mean, Scope, the disability charity, says that 1 in 5 of people in this country have a disability as it's registered by the— as is under the government's sort of guidelines of what a disability is. And we very rarely see them, or we think of disability as being something for old people or something that's perhaps hidden away, not something that people might want to read about, dressing, that kind of thing. Where it's not like that. We are part of society and that's why I wanted to include different characters in my thrillers. In this book there's also a woman who wears hearing aids. Again, that's just, that's just who she is and she becomes good friends with Audrey later on in the book. So I just think it's important to recognise diversity in terms of disability, race, sexuality, and class as well. Class is a big theme in this novel because that's the modern world that we live in, isn't it Hazel? Well, it is completely, and what I did like is that you highlighted some bigoted opinions. Now, there are bigots out there, there are people who just don't understand, there are people that are scared to ask, but the more that there are books like yours, whether you just write about it and you just kind of address certain bigoted comments. I mean, there was the element of when you were looking to adopt, when Audrey was looking to adopt, and somebody got annoyed because she was quite happy to have an able-bodied child, and somebody else was like, well, why? Why would you? And she got really nasty and actually quite bitchy and she was dealt with appropriately. But people either have ridiculous ideas or they're too scared to ask in case they offend, and it just leaves people not knowing what the hell they should be thinking. And, you know, it's— I get, I get it's tough if people just don't want to offend somebody and say, oh, by the way, you know, what is the issue, or what is your disability? But, you know, what would you say to people who think like that? Well, firstly, I would say, well, why do you want to know? Is it relevant? Would you want me to go and ask you? Would you like to visit your GP for it? You know, have you got piles, high blood pressure? That's your business, isn't it? So unless you really need to know, say for example you were inviting me around to your house for dinner and you wanted to know any access requirements I might need to get in your house, then Well, think about, yeah, do you need to ask? Are you just being curious? Are you just being nosy? But if you do need to know, then just ask politely. I'd much rather somebody did it that way than sort of went around the houses or went asking somebody else behind my back or something. But as you say, the more that these— the more visible that disabled people are in society and the more we do appear in telly and books and things, the less of an issue it is really. And we're still at this stage. I mean, I remember, I'm old enough to remember the 1980s when people of colour were rarely on telly, and when they were in dramas, they were stereotyped as the drug dealer or the, um, the— or it was a historical programme and they were the slave. And quite rightly, people were up in arms about that and It's got much better now, hopefully, for— Times are changing slowly, but yes. They are. But still, when you see a disabled actor on telly, it's still, "Oh, look!" And I've heard anecdotally about TV producers, they'll say, "No, we won't commission a drama with somebody with a disability in because we had one last year." Just ridiculous things like that, as if there's a quota and we want 5 of the population. And also, I'll just add that, of course, there are many conditions that are invisible to others where people may need some sort of adjustments or extra help, but you wouldn't know by looking at them. So we've got to remember really just to have courtesy for everybody, everybody, because you don't know what they might be dealing with at that time, particularly with mental health as well. Just be kind, just treat other people the way you would want to be treated yourself. Yes, and also just to reiterate what you said before, why is it any of your business? I mean, yeah, you know, just treat people nicely and with kind and warmth no matter what. You never know, and even if you do ask, sometimes people just think it's none of your business and don't want to ask your questions. And you know, people are naturally inquisitive, but you know, people are so incredibly busy in their own worlds, and it's— and everybody's completely different as to how much they want to share and how much they want to be out and about. And do you know what I found absolutely gobsmacking is when you were talking about Tina and how you'd— I keep on saying you— when Audrey Audrey, yes. That's my next question because I'm wondering how much you've kind of based her character on you because you did just say before that you are a little bit, you like to kind of keep yourself to yourself and be, you know, a little bit of a homebody which is very Audrey. But you relate, you talk about Tina, about how you bumped into her and she couldn't, you thought she was being funny with you because she didn't acknowledge when you apologized and then you found out that she's wearing hearing aids and that unless she can see your mouth then— Audrey's mouth, you know what I mean— and then, and I thought, and it was the first time that it had struck a chord with me because I'm so busy and we're so busy off in our own worlds that we forget about other people sometimes. What about all these people have worn masks for the last 18 months? Well, exactly, I mean I've got personal experience of that because I also developed a hearing loss in my 20s and I I can't hear anything, well, virtually nothing on one side, and then I've got a hearing aid on the other. And in the past when I worked in offices, that did happen to me, that people occasionally that didn't know me thought I was being a bit rude because they'd say something and I wasn't looking at them, so I didn't hear them. So if they said good morning or something and I didn't reply, they thought, hmm. And then they might— I know in one case this chap mentioned it to a friend of mine at work, and she explained, she said, oh, she won't have heard you, heard you. So tap her on the shoulder or make sure that she's looking at you. So yes, that came from personal experience, but with the masks I found it so much harder to communicate with people because I can't lip read. I can sort of tell from people's eyes the kind of thing that they're talking about, so if their eyes are twinkling, you know that they're saying something funny. If they look a bit sad, you know they're saying something serious, but it's really hard to actually work out out the total gist of the conversation. So sometimes I've just had to say, 'Look, can you just pull your mask down a bit?' Or I have to, if there's something really important that needs to be said and I'm not with my husband who can relay it to me. And there's also, I know that there were some masks on sale that did the job but were clear. I was in, I don't know what they were made of, and that was to help people lip read. But it's just the sort of thing, I guess you don't think about it unless it affects you. Completely, yeah, until it's in your arena. I mean, I felt quite ashamed when I suddenly realised while reading that section, I was like, this just— because we were so busy talking about how, you know, the masks were steaming our glasses up or giving us spots, or we just weren't used to it and we were forgetting them, that we completely forget about anybody and everything else, don't we? And it's natural, I guess. We do. I mean, everybody's— I know everybody's found lockdown really tough, and we're all pleased to be out, out and about again. But, uh, well, without getting on my soapbox, Freedom Day, July the 19th, wasn't Freedom Day for a lot of people. It actually meant the opposite for people who, who still have health problems, who still have to be careful about COVID because, you know, as Sajid Javid, the Health Secretary. Sajid Javid, yeah. He got it again, didn't he? And he'd been double jabbed. And I know people who've been double jabbed and have still got it, and they haven't— thankfully they've not been hospitalized, but they've still been pretty poorly. So I mean, I know quite a few people who've got low immune systems and things, and now basically back in the home having to shield again. Because there is no legal requirement for other people to carry on wearing masks. And then also there's no legal protection for your job either, that if you choose not to go in because you're worried about your health, well, you've got no leg to stand on anymore. So that's not got anything to do with the book, is it? But it's all these things just to go along with— we live in our own little worlds, and it's just really interesting to actually see the point of view from somebody else's world from time to time. I disagree that it's got nothing to do with the book because I think what the book actually addresses is just trying to educate people that everybody has different lives, different opinions, wants, needs, restrictions, abilities, you know, and to be a little bit more open-minded. I think the book, that's one of the core themes that goes through the book. As I was saying to you off air, this is the joy of reading. It teaches people, especially fiction in an entertaining way, how to think outside the box and to educate your mind. And also I hope it shows us that for all our differences in the world, there are some core things that we've all got in common, like the need for love, like the urge to have children and the protective urge, the need for friendship. All these things that we're just human and that we've needed them since time immemorial. And so we're all the same in those ways, you know, despite any class or health or social differences. Yeah, we all have these kind of primeval urges as well to nurture, or there's jealousy, and you know, there's themes that are in the most modern books that age back for thousands of years. Yeah. Now you were saying about Freedom Day and being out and about or still shielding. Now you've got quite strong links to the writing community, and, you know, whenever there's something— I mean, I absolutely love the writing community on Twitter, which I think you're quite heavily involved with. Everybody's extremely supportive of each other, and when a book comes out, it's not like, "Oh no, their book's better than mine!" No, let's sing and dance and shout about them and support them, retweet them, like them, send reviews, review each other's books, you know. I know quite a lot of you send each other your books in alpha and beta to kind of help each other out, which is fantastic, and quite a lot of you then got to get together at the Harrogate Crime Festival. We did, yeah, there's a bit of a story back to this because my first book, My Perfect Sister Came Out out last May, right in the middle of lockdown, and I saw on Twitter that there were a group of people who got together called, who called themselves the Debut Twenties, and people who were having their first book out that year. And because we wouldn't get a chance to meet each other or go and do book signings or whatever, this community was formed. So we've got a big Facebook group, we're also on Twitter, We have Zoom chats every week, which is brilliant. 5 o'clock on a Friday, get your glass of wine, and, and you'll sort of not only have a laugh, but we really help each other out with any plot difficulties or what have you, any questions when it comes to, um, the business of publishing and agents and things like that. And also, as you say, support each other. We say a A win for the D20s is a win for us all. And at Harrogate, actually, one of us, a chap called Trevor Wood who writes crime, he has— He's the Newcastle guy, he did One Way Street, One Man Street, and he's got a third one coming out, hasn't he? He has, he's brilliant, and he was up for the Theakston's— I'm not exactly sure of the correct title— but the Theakston's Crime Book of the Year Award. There were 6 people shortlisted, so we were all there well, quite a few of us were there to cheer him on. He didn't win, but he did very well getting in the final 6, and he got a lovely tankard trophy that's engraved, and he made very good use of it in the bar tent afterwards. I bet. But book Twitter, I mean, it's brilliant. It's work— being— working as an author, it's It's very, it's solo, you're very alone and you need to be to concentrate on the book that you're writing, but it's fantastic. It's a bit like the water cooler or the lunch hour room where you'd go to have your lunch sort of thing, so you can chat to other people and network and, you know, it's brilliant. I've got so much time for other writers, particularly people who were just starting out, because I remember what it's like. It's that you think that you've got to, you think you've made it by getting your first book, and in many ways you have, but I was given some advice that actually you're at the first step of the ladder because you've got so much to learn about the publishing industry, and you're only really as good as your last book. So you've got to keep growing as a writer and keep building. And that's where we're all there to sort of support each other when we have those dark days in writing and you think, "I'm never going to be able to finish this. What's going on?" And tell each other, "Of course you can. Just bums on seats, get on with it, and you'll come to that conclusion and work hard enough and your book will be great." So I'm quite intrigued because I know quite a few people that are in the, like, D20 group, and you were all of a very similar kind of level, I think, that, you know, I've read quite a few of them, they're all absolutely fantastic. And it's, I think it's so much harder for debut authors because, you know, until you've written 3 or 4 books, you don't get the big publishers, you don't get you know, all the major magazines writing reviews unless you've got, you know, 300,000, 400,000 followers. And yet the majority of the books I've read from that group are a damn sight better than some of the ones that are getting the number one slots and, you know, are from very, very popular authors. They're fantastic. And it's just, you've just got to work a little bit harder and make sure you're part of a really good support group just to help each other. Reach the audiences, and I think that's fantastic. You do. I mean, one of us said that when it comes down to actually selling your book, when you're an author, your work is finished in a way when it's all your edits are done and it's gone to the publisher. And yes, there's stuff you can do yourself, like being on Twitter and Facebook and having a website and stuff, but It's the actual marketing spend that the publisher gives it that will actually correlate to how many copies you sell, assuming your book's decent and it's not a load of rubbish, which it pretty much wouldn't be if somebody's wanted to publish it. And publishers— not necessarily true. Sometimes you have some really famous people out there and their book, they sell lots of them and they're terrible books, but because they're very well known and they're a celebrity Oh well, after this, when we're off air, you tell me which ones you mean. I'd love to know. I'm not bringing nothing on air. Yeah, I digress. Spending— publishers, the big ones anyway, tend to decide which books they want to be their bestsellers of the year and then throw the marketing budget at it accordingly. And obviously the more they've paid out in advance for a book, the, the higher marketing spend they're gonna allocate to it because they want to make that money back. So I bet Prince Harry's gonna have a massive marketing budget for his book when it comes out. Of course, it's, it's all— there's also a side to it about working hard with indie bookshops to try and get your name out there and get the word of mouth success. So we're all there for the ups and downs for each other in the, in the D20s on, on Book Twitter, and it's been great. Oh, when, when I was at Harrogate, I saw all these just amazing authors, particularly the thriller authors, which is the— I'm more thriller than crime really, and I was such a fangirl. I just, uh, I went up to one of them, but some of the others I just thought, no, they're too famous for me to go and approach them and say hello, you know. I feel like such a plonker going up, you don't know me. Birds, I love your books. I did see quite a few of the lot that I know that they're all together. Some of them had managed to get a few selfies with the likes of Richard Osman and whatnot. So it was— my friend actually, one of my best friends, is moving to Harrogate in the next week and a half, and I'm like, right, can you book out, make sure that I'm staying at your house next time it's the festival, because I want to be there. I want to be surrounded by all these writers. I'm planning on going next year. I actually William, I got Richard Osman's book then signed for my mum, and he's 6 foot 7 and I'm very short, so I said to him, I said, "Oh Richard, I think we're the tallest and the smallest people in the room," and do you know what he said to me? He said, "Well, we've got to be good at something, haven't we?" I love that. Yeah. Oh wow, that's just fantastic. Fantastic. Is there anybody in your writing group that's just released a book that you've read and you definitely want to signpost that to me to make sure I read? Well, my fellow Red Door author Emma Scullion, E.C. Scullion, has written the second in her trilogy and it's called Evaders. Oh, I've seen that. And it's brilliant. If you think of Jean Le Carré, it's sort of an international heist com spy thriller. And I'd like to tell everybody on this radio show that, um, Emma and I are going to have a joint book launch, um, and the— it's going to be hosted by Trevor Wood, who we've just been talking about, um, a Crime Jagger winner. And it's going to be on the 19th of August, 8 PM. It's on Zoom, and to— it's free to go. There's going to be some giveaways and hopefully lots of fun. To book at your place, you have to go to a link which I will, will be on my website, which is pennybachelor.co.uk, and I'll put it in the news section. If you look at, uh, Twitter, Thriller Women on Twitter, uh, well, it'll also be on there because Emma and I, we, we set up a blog called Thriller Women where we interview other female thriller writers. I was going to ask about that. It's like your, your co-blogger Thriller Women launch, where we get to talk about our books instead of interviewing other people about theirs. So if you can make it, do come along because we'd love to have you. I'm just having a look on your website, pennybachelor.co.uk, where people can follow you on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. All the links are on there, so it's nice and easy. Um, so did you say that the link for, for the 18th— no, the 19th of August is on there now? It will be by the time this goes out, yes. There you go, right, I'll just post this on there. A little bit of a spoiler, this isn't live. Yeah, there is, and I just want to point out to everybody as well, they can go on to thrillerwomen.co.uk to have a look. I mean, I keep on meaning to reach out to Emma, or EC Scullion as she's known on her books, because because everybody just waxes lyrical about her books, and I really need to get in on the action, I think. She's brilliant, and also, I mean, that's been something that's wonderful that's come out of being an author, because with us being in with the same publisher and our first books came out within 2 weeks of each other last year, we just, we got to know each other and, and started a really nice friendship that we're always WhatsApping every day. She lives abroad at the moment, um, so we haven't been able to meet up in person, what with all the lockdown and all the travel restrictions, but it's wonderful to have made a really good friend out of all this awful arc. Yes, I mean, there are definitely— I like to focus on the positives of any situation, and although it's been pretty challenging over the last 18 months, some fantastic things have come out of it, ways that people people have started speaking to people that they didn't normally get in touch with, or they've realised or appreciated other people more. And one main thing that's happened because of COVID is people have started reading more, and I think that's fantastic. People finally had the time to do it, or they needed to do something that kind of entertained them while they were shielding or in their solitude. So it's good to focus on the positives of rather dire situations. I do, I have got this question written down that I really want to ask you because I did keep on referring to Audrey as you. How close to Audrey's character are you? Well, I hope she's not me at all. I mean, I have restricted growth myself, although it's a different medical condition from Audrey's. Parts of her character and her experience are informed by my own. But no, she's very different from me. She's very quiet, quite solitary, not particularly sociable. But then, you know, I know quite a lot of people like that who are quite introverted and lovely people, but they, they're much happier in a small group than they are at a big party or whatever. But there's another character in the book, without giving away any spoilers, called Claire, and I think I'm sort of half Audrey and half Claire. Claire's very— okay— and quite outspoken and quite straight-talking. So I've got Audrey's sort of homebody, quite happy sitting at home, you know, watching telly with her husband kind of thing, and then Claire Claire's down-to-earth, call-a-spade-a-spade sort of side, although I hope that my character is not like Claire's, although she is quite. Well, quite. I do love asking this question because there are, I mean, I don't know if you know of Hannah Clare Tovey, but there's so many people with these fantastic characters and sometimes the main character that, you know, even accidentally, you kind of put a bit of yourself into that character. And I remember asking another author on the Get Booked show how much she was like the main character in the book, and the book was called Mother's Love. And I said, you know, how much are you like the main character, and how much is your mom like, the mother character, and she brought her daughter into the interview with her, and the actual author said, "Oh no, nothing like, nothing like at all," and behind her back her daughter was going, "It is! Grandma's horrible!" That's so good. Funny. I mean, I'm French, it's not me, but I mean, the funny thing was with my first book, My Perfect Sister, a friend of mine from university, he read it and he said, "Oh, I recognize all the characters," I know who you've based them on. I haven't based them on anybody, they're just made up. And he was adamant that they were people that we were at university with, whereas that had never crossed my mind. So I suppose maybe subliminally there are, perhaps there are bits in there or experience I've had or turn of phrases or something, but it's not meant to be. I mean, I deliberately try and make my characters not based on anybody because I wouldn't want to offend anybody, and I choose names that aren't of my nearest and dearest as well, because I would hate to make somebody a murderer who's actually me in real life and then them say, "How could you do that to me?" sort of thing. I'd love it. I'd be like, "Yeah, I want to be the really sassy murderer who really just—" I do, I do like, I do like that question because it's amazing how many people either intentionally or not write the main character so similar to themselves. And I didn't actually ask the question of one of the ones because even off air, I mean, literally, I could predict what she was going to say next because I'd read two of her books. She was very sweary, very funny, and very sarcastic. And I was like, I don't need to ask that question. You've written these books based on you. But I do love that just because we're not always I'm always completely conscious of sometimes the way that we do some of the characters. But I did, yeah, I mean, I've still got the end to, I can't wait, I really do, I really can't wait. Luckily it's just started raining, so I can't even go out and finish the gardening after we finish doing today's show. Well, you've only got one more to go, Hazel, and there are lots more twists and turns to come. Come. But every now and again I deliberately, I deliberately put cliffhangers in and twists and turns and little shocks, so what you think is going to happen— Well, you did the same with The Perfect Sister because you kind of felt like at the beginning you knew how it was going to go and then you completely threw that up in the air and you're like, oh okay, don't assume anything, and then it goes in another direction and then you throw another spanner in the works and then, you know, there was about 8 or 9 different tangents in The Perfect Sister where you just, in the end, I just like, well, I've just got to accept that I'm not going to predict how this is going to end in any way, shape, or form, which is what I'm looking forward to and what I expect. Although I saw at the beginning of the book that you've kind of dedicated it to your husband who's helped you shield, and also what you said off air is that he also helped you figure out how to get a man drunk. Vodka? Yes, yes, there was a scene, again I won't give any spoilers, but a certain character wants to get a man who doesn't normally overdo the beer rather inebriated. And so I said to my husband, right, what can I do? And he said, put vodka in the beer. And I said, well, wouldn't he notice that it was it wasn't, you know, didn't taste normal. And he said, well, just say that you topped up a different beer into an old one without washing the glass out. And so I did, and there you go. So, but we don't have any vodka in our house. You're not allowed it now in case he thinks you're trying to get him drunk every night. So I am keen, what's going to be, what's going to be the next? I mean, I'm sure you're already either thinking or have put pen to paper for the third. Can we have any little ideas of what's going to be the third book? Oh, I have. My trouble, Hazel, is that I've got so many ideas, but it's finding one that's got the longevity in it to get to 80,000 words, really. And I'm good at coming up with what we call the inciting incident, which is the sort of thing that sets it all off at the beginning. But again, it's coming up with all the twists and turns later on. So I actually started three, and I think I know the one that I'm going to carry on with. The other two are still there on my laptop just waiting for me to have some inspiration about what the twists and turns can be later on. But the one I think I'm gonna go with, it's about six friends who, when they'd finished, um, their finals at university, one of the group of friends died. And 20-odd years later, they all gather in a hotel that's a detox, digital detox hotel. It's in the middle of nowhere and it hasn't got Wi-Fi. So they all gathering there to remember this friend, uh, and as you would guess with my writing, it's not some nice happy occasion where everybody has group hugs. It's, uh, some sort of, uh, rather murderous Things may occur, but that's all I'm going to tell you. I can imagine though, can you imagine how agitated and murderous people would be if they weren't allowed tech? They'd all be coming down off their kind of tech high and they'd be absolutely losing it. And the worst thing is, is we are so reliant on tech that when something happens, we don't even know how to cope with it now. If somebody has an accident, we Google what we're supposed to be doing. We need to phone the paramedics, you know, even emergency services. We use our mobiles. We don't have to worry about finding a phone somewhere, or the good old days when in a haunted house somebody cut the phone lines. And we can do pretty much anything and everything with our phones. But if there's no tech— Yeah, and I thought, well, what is the modern equivalent of somewhere that doesn't have phone lines and things? I thought digital detox, because it's, it's an up-and-coming thing where people will pay to go somewhere where they can't sit and be on their laptop and on their phone all day. So as a device for a thriller writer, I think that's great. And actually, what you said about us being addicted to our phones, it reminded me that this morning I'd got a letter that I needed to, to post pretty quickly, um, to my publisher with some signed bookplates, uh, and I, I switched on my laptop because I wanted to find out how much how much it costs in stamps to send it. And my Wi-Fi was down. Firstly, I thought, oh my word, I hope it comes back for this interview. But I couldn't— how am I going to find out how much a first-class stamp cost? Because in my book, it doesn't have the— my book of stamps, it doesn't have the price on. Anyway, the Wi-Fi did come back in about 5 minutes later, but it was that sort of panic. I mean, what did we do? 5 minutes of panic, yeah. Walk to a post office to find out these things. I can't remember, and I'm the generation where, you know, I got to 18 before the internet really sort of came in. So I don't know what it's like for people who've known it all their lives. It must be pretty scary. So get to the Digital Detox Hotel and you'll have plenty more things to worry about than the price of a stamp when you're there, I'll tell you that. Wow. I mean, to be honest, I mean, I I use tech a lot. My kids have had to use it so much because they've had to be keeping in touch with their friends, their family, their dad, and even the homeschooling. And we're now so used to it, it's hard to kind of scale it back a little bit. And I use it a lot because most of my interviews, a couple of the other radio stations I work at, their studios are now open again, but some of the ones the ones that are in the centre of London, they're not reopening because, you know, up until a month or two ago it's still a bit of a ghost town, and they just didn't want people to be confined into a small space. So I use, you know, all my socials to keep in touch, to promote, to speak to people, and the only time I really don't get to use tech is when I go on holiday with my children because it's the only time time I don't need my phone. If I don't have my kids with me, then I need my phone in case something's happened and they used to be able to get in touch with me. And I find it ridiculously liberating to just kind of lock the phone and the iPad up in the hotel room and go out for the day. God forbid if something happened, and you know, but it's a fantastic feeling and we just don't embrace it enough do we? Because we're scared and it's sod's law that something will happen. I mean, tech's a two-way thing because over the lockdown so many things have gone online like plays and people having group meetings on Zoom, and for me as somebody who finds it physically quite difficult to get around, it's been amazing. It's been so much more inclusive to be able to go to all these gatherings online and see everybody and not have to miss out. But then on the other hand, you just get, you get so worn out by being on Zoom all the time. Yeah, when I was in Harrogate, I didn't take my laptop, so I only had my phone with me, and I deliberately, um, rarely went on it. I only had it so I, I was in a WhatsApp group with the other, um, authors that I knew that were going, so we just needed to know where everybody was going to be to meet up because we were in different places. But I've— my husband and I have got a holiday booked coming up in a month or so, and all I'm taking is my phone, but I'm switching it off. And maybe we switch it on in the evening just in case there's some sort of urgent phone call from my family or something. But I, I cannot wait to have that separation. And you just find you waste so much time because you go on Twitter and it— we've just been talking about its benefits for writers, but then you click on this and you click on that and then you end up reading something else and an hour's gone and you think, the rabbit hole, I've done something with that. I could have written 500 words in that time, or I could have phoned a friend or something. But it's so easy just to waste so much time and so difficult to say, I'm only going to spend 10 minutes doing 10 minutes, that's like the unicorn of tech time. Yeah, and they make it addictive, don't they? So you want to keep staying there and keep looking at different, different posts and things. So I've got to try and be very strict with myself because Twitter is very good for procrastination when you're writing and you're putting off writing something because you're not quite sure. Well, there's evil little Bots in the program that was aired on Netflix about a year ago that showed when people were losing interest and they were kind of, they were like, oh no, they're losing interest. Quick, quick, show in quickly, have a popup that's to do with something they were searching 2 hours ago through the cookies and da da da da da. Keep them entertained, do this quickly. Offer them a free package on Candy Crush or whatnot. And it's just, it's very evil. I must say, if you're gonna go on holiday and not use your phone, Penny, how are people gonna know how much of a good time you're having if you're not posting it on Instagram? I'm not gonna tell them. I'm not gonna tell them. I'll post when I get back. But personally, I'm not too keen on people who, when they go on holiday, are always putting up pictures of how wonderful it is, because I sort of think, yeah, we get the picture. We're at home not doing anything special, you know. Don't overdo it. Pitmate sort of thing. Well, there's a fine— sorry, carry on. I suppose something when I get back, but not whilst I'm there. It's just going to be me time, I think. Can you imagine that? There's a fine line between sharing the odd snap and spending so much time on Instagram showing people how much of a good time you have that people think, can't be that good if you're on your phone all the time. Exactly. It's like in the olden days when You used to go on holiday and people would just used to walk around with their video cams strapped to their face, and you think, well, you're not seeing anything because you're just looking through a lens at it all. Yeah, you know, sit down, appreciate where you are. And that's the same with, with social media, because putting, you know, if you take some snaps and there's a nice one and put it up, fine. But if all you are, all you're doing is looking for some— a nice view to put on Instagram. It's, it's a bit sad really, but I, I'm quite old-fashioned now, so I'm sure people who were 20 would probably have a different view. Penny, it's not called being old-fashioned, it's retro. Oh, retro. Oh yeah, I'm retro. Yeah. Now you've obviously, as you said, you've had to shield, um, quite a bit, and your husband helped you do that. You spend a lot of time writing, which can be quite isolating. You must have some good hints and tips on how to keep a, a good level of mental well-being and, and positivity and something to kind of spur you on. Have you got any tips you'd like to share with our listeners? Sleep is really important, I think, is not pushing yourself too far. Recognising when you need a break. There's a difference between procrastination and actually your body and your mind just thinking, I need some downtime now. I know the sort of British work ethos is just keep going, keep going, but we do need to look after ourselves as well. We need to make sure we get our sleep, we get our exercise, we eat quite well and have, have some balance in our day. So sometimes when I've got deadlines, yeah, I work work pretty late and sort of push myself a bit, but then my body, my body tells me when I've gone a bit too far because I just get really tired and a bit run down. So I know to take a, try and take it easy then for a bit and whilst I recharge my batteries. And also with the sociable side, because you know, it is a very solitary profession. It's always having something to look forward to, and in the days when I was shielding, that might be a Zoom call with a friend or something like that, or thinking, right, I'm gonna watch a film tonight with my husband. But now we can actually start seeing people again, it's putting something in the diary for the weekend to meet up with some friends for a drink or something like that, so you know you've got something to look forward to and a sort of treat for for the hard work that you put in. I like that, yeah, just it's self-care and appreciating, knowing what, what bigs you up as well, what kind of boosts you. Chocolate. Now an important question here is, are you dark chocolate or milk chocolate? Oh, milk. I don't like dark chocolate and I'm very picky about my brand of chocolate as well. Um, it's got to be Dairy Milk. Oh, thank goodness. Yeah, it is. I mean, you know, milk with, with salted bits in. Is it salted milk? I can't quite remember what it's called, but that is delicious as well. But, um, I'm quite a cheap date because all your fancy posh chocolate, nah, you know, with all the bits in, you know, nuts and strawberries and Just give me a bar of Dairy Milk and I'm happy. I mean, I am very much, if it's milk chocolate, it's got to be Dairy Milk. Don't give me your Galaxies, don't give me your Thorntons or your posh stuff from Marks and Spencer's. It's got to be Dairy Milk, but I do prefer dark chocolate and that I can be a little bit more flexible with. Well, that's good because that means, you know, if we've got a box of chocolates, you have the dark ones, I love the milk ones, everybody's happy. Bing bang bosh, I'll see you at Harrogate. Now we're running out of time, as ever we kind of storm through our hour with this being your second time on the Get Booked show for Men's and Women's Radio Station. We've loved having you here, but before we finish today's show, I would like to ask you, as we were talking about increasing ability diversity within publishing, are there any other other brilliant disabled authors out there that you would recommend? Well, I'm in a group from the Society of Authors, and there's a subgroup which is a group for authors with disabilities and chronic illnesses, and there's loads of great authors in there. I don't actually want to mention any names because I'm not quite sure who particularly might want to identify in that way. But there are, yeah, there are some great ones, some brilliant authors out there, and I hope there will be many more in the future. Because I just want to say that, you know, writing about disability, I'm writing from my perspective, but there are so many other perspectives. People with different conditions, people of different ethnicities, from different countries, stages in their life, like that. And so there's room for so many more stories to be told, and I hope they will. Because I write my thrillers where disability just sort of happens to be there, but there are room— there's room for more gritty stuff as well. So yeah, keep writing, and if you have a disability or an illness and and you want to get writing, please do. There are loads of helpful people out there on Book Twitter who can point you in the right direction and writing courses and things and who can have your back. So get writing. And if people want to hear a little bit more about women who are writing thrillers, they should pop over to thrillerwomen.co.uk. Yes, it's a criminal— no, it's a criminal— it's a crime not to read them. I was reading some of the ones on here, and there's quite a few on here that I'm really looking forward to getting involved with. And I think it's really good having a site where two fantastic authors have come together to write about other people's books as well. I think it's a really good combination, and I'm so glad that you've come up with that pairing. So go and check out thrillerwomen.co.uk, and of course, all our listeners should pop over to pennybachelor.co.uk and go and check out the news section and sign up for the event on the 19th of August, which is going to go out at 8 PM. And although they need to read Her New Best Friend, they should, they should give your first book a go as well, shouldn't they? Yes, My Perfect Sister. It's the story of Annie, who when she's 30, um, circumstances come together that she goes back to her childhood home that she's not happy to be in because when she was 5, her elder sister went missing and was never found. But then at home, Annie, um, starts to wonder what did happen to her sister, but is it safe for her to find out. Dun dun dun! Go and get the book and go and find out. Thank you so much, Penny, for joining me here on Get Booked. Thank you all you listeners for listening into our conversation, and I can't wait to speak to you when the third book gets finished and published. Thank you, it's been a pleasure. Thank you everybody for having me. You are very welcome.