Future Classic Women Awards – Monique Kongtruadroke

Hello and welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station, the program where we search for the most amazing female artists on the classical panorama. Today is a very special San Valentine episode. I mean, it's gonna be this week, so we're quite excited. And our guest, so it's Soprano Monique Clon-Troisdroc. Welcome back, Monique. Thank you so much, Stefania. It's good to be back. Yeah, we, we heard Monique back in November. Yes. And with the Barefoot Opera. And today you're back to present us with some very new special project of yours that goes perfectly with Saint Valentine. And that is, that is Juliet Song. So it's a classical crossover song which I recorded in, in Thailand. And, you know, it's kind of like an experiment, a new experiment mixing opera with some electronic music. So, and so how did you get this idea of, I mean, is this your first crossover? Yes, it's my first. Yeah, it's my first crossover song. And I was actually inspired by the Fifth Element movie. You know, yeah. When, you know, when the alien. Yes, the alien. Yeah. The diva song. So it's, it's that one was taken from Luthier de la Marmoire and then they did something with it. And so I was like, oh, I want to create something similar. Similar. So I took something from Capuletti e Montecchi by Bellini, just the melody. And then my friend Bruno Brugnano, who is a very well-known composer in Thailand, he helped me. Is he Italian or Thai? So he's Italian, but he's been living in Thailand for a long time. So I want to go to live in Thailand. It's really beautiful. I had a friend going there, he's actually from Thailand, but he's also American, and he was posting this picture over Christmas and I was like, oh, Yes. With the beautiful beaches. Did you go to Thailand for Christmas? Oh, I was there for like 2 months for visiting family and concerts as well. So it was beautiful. I had like also a little tour in the island of Phuket and then in the north of Thailand in the mountains. It was really beautiful. Did you preview your song there? Yeah, but it was mostly like some more classical things, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Now, how do you think it's important to do crossover? Coming out, let's say, from the concert hall and doing things that are really crossing over to different styles, probably to different audience? Yeah, I think it's quite important nowadays because I think the opera world has got to be renewed in some ways. And so especially for the young, you know, the young generation, they always think like they can't really relate to classical music, even though it's, of course, it's not. Like that, because opera, we talk about usually the themes which are timeless, but then maybe, you know, the language is a bit different. And so by mixing, you know, the sound of opera with some new sounds, I think it's kind of like, it's a language that more people can understand, mostly young people, I think. So you are a young person, a young soprano. Do you listen to other style of music? I listen to many styles of music. I'm actually very much inspired by any world music, any folk music from like the remote, you know, countries in the world. I find that quite inspirational because it tells you about the history of the people and it's like you get really into the soul of the people of that country particularly. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there is something that always touched me when I've been talking with Russian friend of mine or people from the ex-Soviet Union. And when I was saying to them that I was Italian, they would have said, oh, you know, we love Italian music. And I've been there hearing, you know, music from famous singers from the '70s like Celentano. Yes. Che poveri. Riccardo Cocciante. Absolutely. And they always told me, and I think it is true because I love, for example, apart I'm not from Russian classical music, but I'm crazy about the Russian poetry and Russian novels. Um, there is this connection between us and them of— because Monique is half Italian— there is this connection of being so passionate and so strong about, you know, expressing your feelings. Yes. Um, did you feel any other connection, similar connection, with other countries or having studied, you know, popular music? I'm very drawn to Brazilian music, you know, and I mean starting from Fado and then Brazilian as well. So, okay, so Portuguese and all the Latin American countries, but also, well, some Eastern European for some, you know, in some ways. And also because this is a very long story, but my mom comes from a part of Calabria, which is actually from the ancient Macedonian people. So they have like their folk music, their language, their traditions. And also that's why I feel kind of like drawn to this type of music, you know. Yeah. Okay. That's very interesting. All right. Now, where did you record this Juliet song? I recorded it in Bangkok in the studio of my friend Bruno Brugnano. And yeah, so we, you know, he wanted to— he actually never listened to the original piece. So I just went there and I recorded just my line, my melody line, and then he made everything else on top of it, which doesn't— of course, it's kind of like, you know, a new original thing. So I'm too curious to listen to it. Then let's listen to Juliet's Song by Monique Clongrode. Clongrode. I know it's hard. Oh, quante volte, oh, quante, ti chiedo ai cieli e a Dio in nome tuo e alla nostra Oh, quante volte, oh, quante, di chi ho l'occhio piangendo. Laura respira intorno, mi sembra un tuo sospiro. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie May Is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being and we're talking all things autism. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Meg Matthews and I'm Carolyn Van Beers. Join us for a brand new show on Women's Radio Station. It's the Meg's Menopause Show. Yes, for the first time on radio there's an a show dedicated to the menopause, a fresh new approach where we inform you of all the choices and treatments that are out there. Supportive and empowering. This is your show. So join us every week with a host of celebrity guests, our very own resident doctor, where we talk about everything menopause. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishcon. I'm a birth doula and mum of 3, and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show, From Tummy to Mummy, here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything fertility, pregnancy, birth, and baby related, right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. My name is Ingrid Marsh and I host the Radical Wellbeing Show, supporting women's wellbeing. On my show, I bring you ordinary women like me and you who are sharing their unique stories. Women who have refused to be defined by their pains, to be silenced by stigma or crushed by stereotypes, and who are taking back their power. And together, our mission is a simple one, and that's to inspire you to kick away the roadblocks too, to don your wings and be the person that you were born to be. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover, and mental health advocate, and you can listen to my show Get Booked here at Women's Radio Station daily at 5 AM and 5 PM. Throughout my shows, we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chat to authors, publishers, and book enthusiasts, all with the theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well-being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch at presenters@womensradiostation.com. Join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. You're listening to Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women, and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter @WomensRadioStation, that's Women's Radio Station, or Facebook Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to Future Classic Women Awards on Women's Radio Station, the program where we search for the most amazing new female artists on the classical panorama. Our guest today for this special Valentine episode is soprano Monique Clonck Troadroc, who's back from the last time we met you on November. Yes, with the Barefoot Opera. We didn't have enough time to talk just with you, and we took the occasion of this fantastic new single. It's actually— there was gonna be a video as well coming coming out, right? Yes, the music video is already prepared. Fantastic. We're looking forward to it. It was— I was dancing while I was listening to the Capuleti-Montecchi aria. Um, what's that? Um, let's tell the people that they don't speak Italian. Yes. What's the text of the song, Juliet's song, talking about? So basically, in this, uh, in this aria, uh, she's longing for Romeo. So it's kind of like a, um, melancholic song. Yeah. And she's saying, uh, how many times I have dreamt of you and how I long for you because you're far away. And I can, in the breeze of the air, I can, it seems like your breath and the rays of the sun seems like your face. So it's quite poetic. It's quite beautiful. Now a question, very personal question. What do you think about St. Valentine, for example? And I explain you why. I have a daughter, she's 5 and a half, and we're gonna have today the baking competition for San Valentín. So we prepared cupcakes with hearts on it, and my daughter was like, why do we do that? What is it, San Valentín? And it's beautiful. I love children because they experience everything for the first time, and it's everything so new, and you have to explain, you know, why the sunshine, why the air You know, why the wind blow, and it's so beautiful and poetical in a way. And, um, and I told her, you know, that you're supposed to love people every day of the year, but on Saint Valentine, it's a special day where you actually give out the card and you make an extra effort. Now, there are people, friend of mine, although they are perfectly in a couple, because often, often, you know, it's the people that they are single, they hate someone. Yeah, I know, actually, um, they think, you know, that's a silly tradition, although Saint Valentine is actually a real saint. Yes, yes, from Italy, from middle of Italy. And, um, so what do you think? What's your take on Saint Valentine? Saint Valentine, well, like all the, um, you know, the holidays, it's kind of like you have like two sides. One is the materialistic side, which, you know, like all hearts and, you know, it's a buy a present. No, I'm not talking about that, but you know, It's a bit like Christmas, it's like a duality. So for me, because I really believe, yeah, in the beauty of Christmas, and, um, you know, Valentine is like the celebration of love. Yeah. So I, I just take it in that sense, um, kind of like a universal— it's— I think it's cute to celebrate, um, yeah, but spreading love. What I don't like is, of course, like, uh, you have to do something on that day, so you're kind of like feeling forced. But I would say, like, whether you're in a couple or not, I think it should be kind of like a universal thing, not only for couples. Yes. So for friends, like, who are single, you know, and for people who are single, just like celebrate the love that you have in your life with other people, your family, your friends. That is what is happening, you know, in the Anglo-Saxon culture, actually. So in Italy, it's mainly about your beloved one. Yeah. Like husband, fiancé, whatever. Yeah, secret love. But in here, it's actually about making a card for your teacher, for your parents. So that's super cute, I think. Now, if you had to choose an opera, um, that most represents— that you would like to, um, associate with Saint Valentine. Oh, with Saint Valentine? What could be. I mean, for example, for ballet, my— the only one for me is Romeo and Juliet by Prokofiev. That's the most beautiful. That's my— I'm in love with that from forever and ever. Although it ends up badly because they both die. But other than that, I mean, we heard the aria Juliet song from Capuletti and Montecchio. That is the opera from Yeah, it's Bellini. It's by Bellini. Yeah. Yeah. It is one of the most romantic composers of opera. And of course, Capuletti e Montecchi. I mean, the story of Romeo and Juliet has been, you know, sung and heard and listened to in many different versions. So starting with Mr. Shakespeare, of course. Yeah. Other than that, it's funny because most operas unfortunately have like, you know, they're really dramatic and they have not a happy ending. I would like something— And they're all about love, isn't it? Yeah, but it's like love and like suffering, which is not, you know, always like that. It's not supposed to be like that. Maybe Elisir d'Amore? Yes, I would go for something more comical. So even Barbara of Seville, you know? Oh yeah, totally. Barbara of Seville or Elisir d'Amore. So something like more positive. I adore Rosina in Barbara of Seville. She's so cheeky. I mean, yes. And also we associate usually opera with, you know, like really dramatic endings. And you have all these women heroines who kind of like suffer or, you know, they sacrifice themselves for the lover. And I'm like, oh, maybe no, it's not always. Okay, now the next song we're going to listen to is not a very funny one, actually. Not very romantic. So it's Handel. Yes. "Che sento pietà." Would you like to tell us something about this aria? Yeah, so this is Cleopatra, who sings about another Julius Caesar. So it's from the opera Julius Caesar. So it's not, yeah, it's not a, you know, it's not an happy ending. Yeah, it's not an happy ending. But I love this piece because I think it's like one of the masterpieces of Handel, and you can just feel in the music all her feelings. It's really I think it's beautiful. Let's listen then. 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Yes, I mean, we're talking about St. Valentine. I forgot to ask you, I mean, St. Valentine is an Italian saint. Yeah, what about your half, your Thailand? This off. Do they believe in someone? Do they have something to do with Valentine? I mean, it's a faraway land. They, they, they culture, they celebrate, I think, in the most, um, commercial way, which is, you know, they, they have taken this. Yeah, they have it. It arrived there, but yeah, they take it from the West. So, you know, it arrives with all the hearts and chocolates and stuff like that. And flowers. And flowers. Yeah, flowers. I want the flowers. We are more interested in the soul of it, you know. My husband is always laughing. I mean, I get all these messages from my girlfriends where, you know, you're saying to the boyfriend or husband, oh, I don't want anything. And then they actually come with nothing. Once I made such a big fuss, I was like, I don't want anything, but I want flowers. I need roses now. He had to go out and get them. Yeah, because when we say we don't want anything, in reality we want them to think about it without even saying, you know. Yeah, yeah, but you know, it's more the jest, you know, it's more the idea. So I mean, roses doesn't take that much, you know, and you can get them for £4 at Marks Spencer. Yeah, even one rose. Absolutely. My daughter, every time she goes shopping with my husband, she sees roses, she's like, "Ma, can we get flowers for mommy?" Oh, that's so sweet. You see, she's like really— Oh yeah. Oh, once we were passing by a jewelry shop and she saw a ring similar to mine and she's like, Papa, can we buy that one for Mama? That is so sweet. Like, that's a very good daughter. Yes, darling, continue like this. Although, you know, as a pianist, I can't wear rings. So it's enough my wedding ring and then I have an extra one from my grandma. But that's it. Do you wear any special jewelry? I'm quite minimalistic, not usually, but if I do wear it, it has to be quite chunky. The opera one, the proper— Yeah, really dramatic piece. Like once for a concert, I have an Italian friend who is a jeweler, and he has made especially for that particular concert production, he has made like a headpiece which incorporated some Thai style into it. It looks like a pagoda thing, and with half of it like coming all over my face, like to cover half of my face, it was beautiful. Yeah. Oh gosh, you're so lucky you have such fantastic friend. I mean, you were talking about your friend who made the animation for the video. Yes, the— for the more, um, techno, more kind of like a disco remix version. So that song, Julia's song, will have two versions. So one will be the operatic crossover, and the other one would be the proper techno. Yeah, kind of like Dua Lipa, if you like that type of, um, although Dua Lipa doesn't sing in the operatic way, of course. But yeah, so talking of which, do you have any compilation that you would make for Saint Valentine? Any special list of arias that you would particularly choose for a Saint Valentine evening, or Oh, I have so many songs in my mind at the moment. What I can think of is, of course, some lovely operatic arias. For example, Caro nome, I love that by Verdi from Rigoletto, because I mean, that's kind of like a very, you know, the start of love, innocent love. She has just seen this guy and she's just in love with him. The Duke of Mantua. She doesn't know he's the Duke of Mantua, the naughty guy, typical. Exactly. But she thinks it's, you know, a poor student. And so she starts this aria singing, "Gualtier Maldè," you know, that's his name. Oh, this name, which evokes so many things. Yeah. So that's one of my favorites. This is such a dramatic opera. I mean, since I had my daughter and I watched the opera, I could not cry thinking about the father the moment he realizes he's killing his daughter instead of killing the bad guy. Oh, yeah. That's really terrible. It's the most shivering and, you know, contemporary as well. It's something that you know, that type of feeling that you would have for your daughter and of her with her— for her lover, for the naughty boy. How many times we find— I mean, not me because I'm married, but when you were young. Yes. How many times you feel— fell in love with the idea. Yeah. Of the perfect prince, and then instead, and it's the Duke of Mantua. Exactly. That's, that's the one we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Second song, what would What would that be? Well, it's another somber one, but I really love the music. It's Ophelia in Hamlet by Thomas. So it's a whole scene, actually it's a mad scene. It's a mad scene, it doesn't end nicely, but I just love it. And I would say also like, oh, there's one, 'Pur ti miro, pur ti godo' by Monteverdi. Yeah. From 'In coronazione di Poppea.' I think it's a beautiful duet. It's one of the most sensual duets that I can think of for opera. That you wouldn't think about being sensual in the Baroque era. Oh, but they are really. They are very. They are. Actually, we were interviewing two weeks ago an harpsichord player, Petra Adjučova, and she was telling us about how Baroque is very similar to jazz actually with improvisation and so modern and yeah. Exactly. Because you have like all the variations. And the people used to improvise and have also kind of like competitions between singers on who could improvise, which today we call ad-lib, right? Yeah, ad-lib. Today they ad-lib. At your pleasure, as you translate. Okay. And the next one? The next one. I also love art songs. So there is one particular one by Liszt, which I really love. It's Au Cange d'Or, and the words are taken from Victor Hugo. Poem, and it's about Petrarch when he sees— I don't remember her name. What's her name? Laura. Laura. So it's kind of like an apparition of Laura in his dreams, but it's also, it's very dreamlike, but it's quite sensual as well. I mean, yeah, well, love goes with sensual at the same time. Passionate Italian, you know? Could be platonic, but not on St. Valentine. Even though Petrarch love was very platonic. Absolutely, yeah. And the last one that you would say? So I would go to completely a different thing, which is not operatic, but it's one of my favorite songs anyway. It's "Conto da Palavra," and it's by Lassa de Sela, which was, unfortunately she died very young, Yeah. Um, half Canadian singer-songwriter, half Canadian, half, um, I think Chilean, I'm not sure. Uh, but it's just, you know, really beautiful song. And wow. Well, next time we need to make a recording of all these songs and we play them. We do a competition for San Valentine. I really love it. Now the last song, actually I forgot to say, but my favorite one The nonplusultra, if you like, it's 'Ama Mi Alfredo'. 'Ama Mi Alfredo'. Oh, it's very romantic. 'Love me as I love you'. Yes. And it's so short, but it's so intense. And I have in mind Callas when she was singing this aria, and I cannot not cry. Yes. Funny enough, after the first date I had with my future husband, he put on Traviata with Pavarotti. And I was like, because I'm from Modena and Pavarotti is deeply in my heart. Yes. Together with Mirella Freni, who died yesterday. Yes. So sadly. Such a fantastic career and beautiful voice. Yes. Anyway, the last song, I mean, the last song of this session is going to be Queen of the Night from The Magic Flute by Mozart. And that's completely a different style. Let's listen to it. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Judy May Is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being and we're talking all things autism. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Meg Matthews and I'm Carolyn Van Beers. Join us for a brand new show on Women's Radio Station. It's the Meg's Menopause Show. Yes, for the first time on radio, there's an entire show dedicated to the menopause. A fresh new approach where we inform you of all the choices and treatments that are out there. Supportive and empowering, this is your show. So join us every week with a host of celebrity guests, our very own resident doctor, where we talk about everything menopause. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishcon. I'm a birth doula and mum of 3, and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show, From Tummy to Mummy, here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything fertility, pregnancy, birth, and baby related, right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. My name is Ingrid Marsh and I host the Radical Wellbeing Show, supporting women's wellbeing. On my show, I bring you ordinary women like me and you who are sharing their unique stories. Women who have refused to be defined by their pains, to be silenced by stigma or crushed by stereotypes, and who are taking back their power. And together, our mission is a simple one, and that's to inspire you to kick away the roadblocks too, to don your wings and be the person that you were born to be. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover, and mental health advocate, and you can listen to my show Get Booked here at Women's Radio Station daily at 5 AM and 5 PM. Throughout my shows, we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chat to authors, publishers, and book enthusiasts, all with the theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well-being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch at presenters@womensradiostation.com. Join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. You're listening to Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women, and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter at Women's Radio Station, that's Women's Radio STN, or Facebook Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to Future Classic Women Awards on Women's Radio Station. Today on this special, uh, episode on Valentine Day— Valentine week, because it's going to be on Thursday— uh, we have soprano Monique Clontra-Droch. Um, Monique, so we've been listening to your favorite, uh, um, aria so far, your fantastic new single that will be released soon, um, of Juliette's song. And I can't wait to be able to see the video, actually. And, um, this is now the last session of our interview. Um, it went too fast, to be honest. For me as well. Um, what I want to ask you, I mean, um, we talked about the video with, um, uh, the main, uh, crossover song, and then there is another video actually that is coming on, uh, with animation, right? Yes, because there's this friend of mine who is really into manga illustration, and so I asked her to do a music video incorporating images, like video images of myself, and she created a character, like a manga character of myself, which is so cute. Like, it's really, you know, it was really fun to do. Can't wait to see that, to be honest. And then you were talking about about your friend who created this incredible hat piece for your concert and this other friend who is this composer who made the arrangement and the crossover of the aria of Capuletti e Montecchi. How important it is to have friends outside opera? Yes, it's quite— yeah, no, it's quite important because as artists, I think I'm always like looking to collaborate with different, you know, visual artists, actors, dancers. One of my dreams is actually to have, you know, mixing opera with art installations and dance. I know, you know, it has been done before by many companies, but, you know, we're always looking for new ideas and new exciting things. Opera doesn't have to be only in the theater. Absolutely. And not only like, you know, very static. It's, you know, an evolving thing. And it's anywhere, really. Yeah. I mean, I know that a lot of— I mean, classical music is with us since we are children because it's in all the children's songs from Disney, you know. Yes. Apart from Fantasia, that is a classic one, but there is so many others. There is a beautiful one my daughter is watching that is by Xpaniel. With opera. Yes. Oh, have you seen that one? And I think that's phenomenal, you know. I remember the— is the Valkyrie. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really funny. And it's so important to know, to realize, and actually it's been used, um, I'm a big fan of, um, um, Santana, and there is an album that came out years years ago. It's called the Corazón Espinado, and I was listening to the song the first time, and I was like— and I was singing the song although I never heard of it. And then I realized it was actually made on Brahms' Third Symphony. That is one of my favorite ones. That's why I like it as well. Oh, so many, you know, rock song and that they are made on Chopin Prelude or whatever. Exactly. Bach. And, um, so it is there, it's just, you know, disguised. And I think if people were more honest saying, you know, this is a fantastic— yeah, maybe people would be less afraid. Yes. Of listening to actually the original version. Exactly, exactly. You know, like, there's also like A Stranger in Paradise. Yeah, take my hand, I'm a stranger in paradise. And that comes— it comes from, um, us. And now that you sang it like that, I totally recognize it. Is that, um, the Liebes— um, um, no, this one is like, um, it's from the Russian opera. It's from the Russian opera. Okay, Russian opera. And it's actually a choir piece, but they made it into this, you know really beautiful romantic song. Now, what would you think? I mean, it's not of everybody to be attracted from so many different styles. I mean, did you ever think that you would be one day recording a crossover song? In a way, I mean, in a way, yes, because my background is like really diverse. And so also the fact that I started studying opera a bit late in my life. So I guess the influences that make my musical taste at the moment, they come from really many different sources. But of course, it's beautiful to be able to, you know, release my first single, and I, you know, I hope that to make more things which are original and, you know, mixing different genres and, you know, with a positive message because we really need something positive. Well, yeah, absolutely. Well, the last song of today is going to be Tornami a Vagheggiar by Handel. From which opera? From Alcina. Alcina, yeah. And you are singing in this moment, what are you telling about? So this is Morgana, which is the sister of Alcina, and they're both Sorceress. So she's in love with this guy and she's actually, she wants to woo him back to love her. But she doesn't know that the guy is actually another woman in disguise. No way! So an opera with a twist. Or if you like, for a more modern, open-minded audience. Yeah, but see, she doesn't know, you know. Then let's listen to Tornamia Vagheggiar by Handel. Wow, and this was Torn Me Apart by Handel with the fantastic Monique Cloncour. Clown Trois Droquets. Well, if you have any questions that you would like to ask to our guest or nomination for our Future Classic Women Awards, please email presenters@womensradiostation.com or tweet us @WomensRadioSTN. A big thanks to our guest Monique for the great chat and the beautiful music played today. Oh, thank you so much, Stefania. It was a pleasure to come here again. It's always really nice to have a chat with you. You're more than welcome. You've been listening to Future Classic Women Awards on Women's Radio Station Live. Every day at 10 AM and 10 PM London time. If you want to listen to it again or catch up on our previous program, you can head to the presenter page, Stefania Passamonte, Future Classic Women Awards on womensradiostation.com. Happy Valentine and thank you for listening. 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