[Speaker 2] (0:01 – 2:44)
Hello, this is Anna Kennedy and we’re talking all things autism once again, and we’re promoting well-being and looking after our own mental health. It’s very important as parents and carers that we look after our own well-being because, as we say, you can’t pour from an empty cup. So my guest this week, actually just to let you know that it’s been a very busy day for me today because obviously autism’s got talent in the coming up and it’s just everyone’s excited about it and also I’ve got a bit of a surprise today to say that I’m one of three women out of hundreds of nominations that has been finalist for the Women of the Year on The Lorraine Show on ITV.

So yeah, it’s just like I wasn’t expecting it all. I thought I was going for a tour. So I’ve met two wonderful ladies and we’ve already started a WhatsApp group so we’ve started chatting so we will be meeting up very soon.

So yeah, so it’s fantastic. Tired again, as always, you know, as we say, looking after our own well-being, my son Angelo is suffering with toothache and as you know, the parent and a carer, autistic children and adults, it’s quite difficult to get appointments. So I’ve been told there’s an eight-month waiting list for Angelo to have a general anaesthetic.

So he’s suffering at the moment, so I’m trying my best to get it pushed forward as soon as possible because if you don’t keep pushing, you’ll never get anywhere. So my guest today, and I hope I’m saying this correctly, is Florence Weber Zunag and she is a certified CPPC and ICF empowerment coach who works with neurodiverse women, both cis and trans and non-binary people in both group coaching and workshops to help them find their introverted path, reach body positivity, neutrality, get focused and achieve their goals. I spoke to the lovely Florence on Instagram.

I’m always speaking to people on either Instagram, it’s Twitter, it’s not Twitter now, is it? It’s X Facebook, the new one thread. So I always meet lots of interesting people across social media and before I am basically going into any more detail, let’s welcome Florence.

So welcome Florence, thank you for joining us today. Hi Anna, thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much Florence.

So before we talk about anything to do with autism, neurodiversity, body positivity, tell me a little bit about who is Florence?

[Speaker 1] (2:46 – 3:28)
Yes, so as you can hear, I’m obviously French. I moved to the UK eight or nine years ago now and I think in terms of cultural differences, it opened a lot for us in terms of understanding different people from different backgrounds and we loved it. Since we’ve had two kids that are foreign too, so we’re obviously very overwhelmed, very busy.

I think I’m an optimist who struggles a bit to stand back and wait, which goes nicely to what I do now, which is being a diversity and inclusion consultant.

[Speaker 2] (3:29 – 3:37)
So what did you do before you were a diversity inclusion consultant? Did you have other type of jobs?

[Speaker 1] (3:38 – 3:44)
I spent more than a decade working in media and advertising and I think I hated it for pretty much a decade.

[Speaker 2] (3:46 – 3:53)
Oh dear. So you decided to go into this line of work now, so how long do you have to train?

[Speaker 1] (3:55 – 4:39)
Yes, so for me, it’s been kind of an upside down journey on that. So I started really, I mean, I knew that I loved leading teams and helping people grow and making sure that people can work together and all of that. So I started to train as a coach and as a facilitator first, which is depending on which route you take, it takes a few years.

And obviously like the more you get as you coach each other, you’ve got as well like clients when you’re training and so on. So you connect a lot with your values, the difference you want to make in the world and all of that. Then yeah, as I did that, it made sense for me to really focus my business on diversity and inclusion.

[Speaker 2] (4:40 – 5:00)
Okay, so can you remember growing up, if you, you know, might have been students that were in your class that you thought that now thinking about it, they were neurodiverse or they were diagnosed autistic, can you sort of remember students that were in your, you can? What sort of things can you remember if you don’t mind me asking?

[Speaker 1] (5:01 – 5:27)
I remember, you know, like when, when like the kind of social rules that are implied, but not too nuclearly stated and that there’s a child who doesn’t necessarily follow it and everybody’s like, Oh, that’s odd. And now obviously in hindsight is what I know now, this is something where like, well, this is obviously someone who was neurodivergent or autistic. And it’s just, yeah, that lack of awareness in schools and workplaces, et cetera.

[Speaker 2] (5:28 – 5:47)
So how do you juggle two children under five and working? Because obviously there’s a lot of parents that, you know, now that they need to work because everything going on in the world, you know, cost of living and all the bills are increasing tremendously. So how do you juggle?

What do you do to keep yourself sane and to keep going?

[Speaker 1] (5:50 – 6:38)
It depends on the weeks. There are some weeks that go brilliantly where I’m quite, quite good at, you know, like getting what I need for myself. And some weeks are a bit more challenging.

Something that I find very helpful is setting intentions. Because when you know exactly what’s your intention for like the day or the week, it’s much easier to run everything by that. Every time you have to make a decision or if you feel you’re falling behind or anything like that, it’s just much easier.

For example, my intention for today was just make the most of that Monday. And it sounds like very broad, but it means that, you know, if there is something where I feel like I’m getting frustrated or I feel a bit overwhelmed, I’m like, well, we said we’re going to make the most of that Monday. It really helps with my mindset.

[Speaker 2] (6:39 – 6:50)
Okay, that’s pretty structured. So what are some of the areas in the workplace that neurodivergent people can find more difficult? So what would, in your opinion, what would you say?

[Speaker 1] (6:51 – 7:33)
So there is, yeah, everything about the rules, there are kind of implied, but not clearly written. So it goes from, yeah, the job description that will say things like, ooh, fast-paced environment, rather than saying people overworked to just really the uncertainty about how things are going to be run in the context of like a day in the office, the sensory overloads, which can be quite isolating in itself, but especially the lack of understanding of colleagues who might, you know, you know, that’s very famous quote from Einstein about judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

[Speaker 2] (7:33 – 7:34)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (7:34 – 7:59)
It’s a bit like that where, you know, sometimes when I’m intervening in companies, there might be someone who’s like, oh yeah, but you know, we’re in client services and that person should be more this or more that. And my answer is always, what are they delivering? What they’re meant to be delivering?

Yes. Okay. Then there is no problem.

It’s just you who needed to understand that different people operate differently.

[Speaker 2] (8:00 – 8:11)
So how did you feel going into your first company and talking about what neurodivergent people need in order to be successful within whatever the employment role that they’ve been given?

[Speaker 1] (8:13 – 8:59)
I think it’s always a difficult one as well. I mean, I was quite lucky that the first few companies that I talked to, they were open to having that discussion because sometimes there are companies or organizations who are more doing anything right to diversity and inclusion for like PR purposes. And as soon as you start to have like difficult conversation or need to change processes, et cetera, then they get a bit defensive.

But yeah, I was quite lucky that I got to talk to team leaders who were willing to hear and understand and to figure out together what were ways that they could make sure their communication was friendly for all employees, neurotypical and neurodivergence.

[Speaker 2] (9:00 – 9:12)
Okay. So what do you look for when you first go into a company before you start presenting training or whatever it is that they’ve asked you to do? So what do you do first?

What do you look at in a company?

[Speaker 1] (9:14 – 10:14)
So it depends a bit on the approach from the company. Sometimes they’re going to come with a very clear issue they want to focus on. So it can be, yes, we know we have neurodivergent employees or we know we have neurotypical leaders who are really struggling to make the reasonable adjustments for the neurodivergent employees.

So we kind of have a starting point there. And usually I always kind of recommend to have like that kind of double approach, one which is the awareness piece, which is for everyone. And another piece as well, to make sure that the people who have been marginalized in the company, so in that case neurodivergent employees, get as well something that’s just for them.

So it can be about helping them ask for what they need, or it can be about resilience or, you know, protecting their mental health. It can be kind of anything, but just to make sure that it’s not just about the awareness and waiting for people to catch up to make their lives better.

[Speaker 2] (10:15 – 10:32)
Do you think a lot of companies are worried about asking, first of all, about employing people who are either autistic or neurodivergent because they’re worried it’s going to have a cost implication on the company. Do you think that is still the case or do you think things are getting better?

[Speaker 1] (10:34 – 11:10)
I think some companies are definitely getting much better at it. And when it comes to like, you know, direct line managers, I think this is probably where people are a bit more worried because they don’t necessarily understand what that would entail. A bit like, you know, when you have a company that’s only looking to hire people with a certain type of degrees, sometimes it’s hard to be like, well, you don’t need to hire someone with a younger version of you.

You’re going to be fine with someone who’s not necessarily neurotypical. So it’s more in terms of like the mentality, I would say, of line managers, most often than not.

[Speaker 2] (11:11 – 11:24)
Can you give me an example of, without giving anybody’s name and who they are, that something that’s really worked well, and something that hasn’t worked well, and the reason being why it hasn’t, that’s if that makes sense.

[Speaker 1] (11:26 – 12:35)
Something that can be challenging is when you have employees in a company that basically are showing signs of autism or being neurodivergent that are not officially, at least not known by the company, are not officially autistic or neurodivergent. So then there is the expectations of people around them of about neurotypical expectations, such as, oh, I briefed that person on that task, and they didn’t really understand what I said. So it’s, you know, those small things, and then we can, from that point, we can move forward and be like, actually, you shouldn’t assume that they’re going to do it, you should always assume that you need to be as clear as you can be, that you need to follow up in writing, that you need to be crystal clear when people are going in meetings, what is expected of them, when they’re supposed to be the ones talking and sharing their points of view, etc. And it’s, so it’s kind of a shift in mindset, but for people that are committed, it’s really great to see.

[Speaker 2] (12:36 – 13:28)
Yeah, I know my son, he likes to know exactly what’s expected of him and what they expect him to do. So maybe like a weekly worksheet or a daily worksheet so that he can look at it if he needs to refer to it, you know, and obviously the certain tasks that he’s got to do once a month, the certain tasks that you might have to do weekly, the certain tasks that you might have to do daily. So when he first started, it wasn’t really, how can I say, specified.

So he was getting a little bit overwhelmed, but now he knows what’s expected of him. So say, for example, he knows he has to cover the whole site once a month for a certain job that he does with health and safety. So it just, I don’t think people sometimes realise that because they know what needs to be done, that it’s not necessarily picked up that quickly from our young people or adults.

So I think the more you specify it, the better it is for them. Would you agree?

[Speaker 1] (13:29 – 13:38)
Yes, 100%. And I think sometimes there is that perception that, yeah, being clear is only going to help certain people.

[Speaker 2] (13:39 – 13:39)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (13:39 – 13:43)
For example, neurodivergent people around, but actually it helps everyone.

[Speaker 2] (13:44 – 13:44)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (13:44 – 14:19)
There is something that’s called the three P’s when it comes to setting up meetings, which is purpose process payoff. And if you send like a meeting invite telling everyone, this is what we’re going to talk about. This is how we’re going to talk about it.

And this is what is the expected outcome for the meeting. Everybody knows everybody is fully aligned with what’s going to happen. They know exactly what’s expected of them.

And at the end of a meeting, you’ve got like clear guidelines and it doesn’t again, not only help people who are neurodivergent, it helps literally everyone in that meeting.

[Speaker 2] (14:19 – 15:15)
Yeah, I always remember when it was lockdown and they were working from home, Patrick found, my son found that quite difficult. But what helped him was them having teams meetings with the group on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Because sometimes in his mind, it’s out of sight, out of mind.

So with them having the teams meetings on Tuesdays and Thursdays, that really helped him more than I think that they realized. So there’s various different ways that you can help our adults in the workplace. And it just doesn’t cost anything at all, really.

You just got to think out of the box. So can you talk to me more about adaptations that neurodivergent employees can ask for? So can you give example, because sometimes people don’t know actually what they need to ask for.

[Speaker 1] (15:16 – 15:21)
Exactly. Yeah. So this is technically called reasonable adjustment from a legal perspective.

[Speaker 2] (15:22 – 15:22)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (15:22 – 15:35)
And it can be a lot of things. It can be things around your physical environment. So for example, some companies have what they would usually call like libraries, which are rooms where there is no noise.

[Speaker 2] (15:35 – 15:35)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (15:36 – 16:07)
And people are not meant to talk, et cetera. So if you need to be in a quieter space, you can. Or in companies that usually do hot desking, you can ask to have the same desk every time you come into the office.

You can ask to work from home more. And it can be as well different things such as assistive technology. If you need any kind of additional support there, that can be very helpful.

Or you can ask for what’s called workplace needs assessment.

[Speaker 2] (16:08 – 16:08)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (16:09 – 16:29)
This is when basically you’re not too sure about what it is you need or you’re not too sure how to convey it. And this is a third party entity that usually is used into working with people with your condition. And they would be assessing your workplace and your kind of immediate team to be able to make a list of recommendations on your behalf.

[Speaker 2] (16:29 – 16:43)
Okay. What about interviewing? So this somebody’s going for an interview for a job that’s neurodivergent or they might have a diagnosis of autism spectrum condition.

What advice would you give a company with reference to interviewing people?

[Speaker 1] (16:45 – 16:56)
So first of all, always making sure that their job description is crystal clear that there’s nothing that leaves room for interpretation, that they share questions ahead of time.

[Speaker 2] (16:56 – 16:56)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (16:57 – 17:08)
How many people are going to be in the meeting? How it’s going to be conducted? Just anything about really being clear and giving people that kind of heads up is really helpful.

[Speaker 2] (17:09 – 17:41)
And being flexible I would say as well because some people, because you know yourself when you go for an interview for a job, the emotions that you have, the anxiety, you know, you want to make a good impression. But then I think they need to be a little bit more flexible, say maybe the first meeting could be via the telephone or it could be online or it could be whatever it is. I think, do you think companies are getting a little bit more flexible with the way they interview people now?

Or do you think they’re still like, no, they’ve got to come in, they’ve got to meet the whoever it is that’s part of the team that’s conducting the interview?

[Speaker 1] (17:43 – 18:32)
I think there’s like a big shift that’s been happening since COVID on that, where everybody got used to having to work remotely. So now they’re more flexible for interviews as well. Very often now at the bottom of job description, you can see that, you know, if you can ask for adjustment for the interview process, which is great to see.

There are still some pushbacks, like when you tell a company, you have to send, you know, questions and interview structure ahead of time. Some are going to be like, oh, but you know, we’re in a client servicing business, we need to see how they react in an unknown environment. But being with a client and interviewing off to very different situations in terms of context and stress, etc.

So this is, yeah, could be that some companies and organizations are still getting used to.

[Speaker 2] (18:32 – 18:58)
They are. But we’re moving in the right direction with a lot of companies, personally, I feel, but it’s just very small steps. So yes.

So talk to me about a workplace needs assessment, because a lot of people have heard that term, whether they’re autistic adults or neurodivergent adults, they don’t actually know what it entails. So could you sort of break it down so that they know what to expect?

[Speaker 1] (18:59 – 19:28)
Of course. So you can, you can basically directly ask your HR team, say that this is your, the condition that you live with, and that you would like to have a workplace needs assessment conducted. So you have a better understanding about, you know, how to best perform your role.

Because when we are talking about reasonable adjustment, this is the idea that, you know, helping remove the barriers for you being able to perform your role.

[Speaker 2] (19:29 – 19:35)
And when’s the best time to ask for that? Is it when you first start your job or wait till you settle in a little bit? What would you suggest?

[Speaker 1] (19:36 – 20:23)
I think it would be more like when the person is more comfortable to ask for it. Because it can be quite daunting. So some people are going to be, are going to have no problem to ask for it right away.

Some people will prefer to like be a bit more comfortable having met the HR person first, and then being able to ask. It varies a lot. Ideally, yes, of course, if you can get into the company and ask, that’s fabulous.

But maybe as well, you’re getting a later diagnosis in life. And then that’s it whenever you’re comfortable. The only thing that I said to always keep in mind is that they do assess the physical workplace, as well as talk to some of your colleagues.

So this is probably, I think, one of the barriers for people asking for it.

[Speaker 2] (20:23 – 20:33)
Okay, so what sort of questions would you be asked in this assessment? For example, to the actual individual themselves, and what sort of questions would they ask their work colleagues?

[Speaker 1] (20:35 – 21:22)
So it’s always about trying to understand exactly what the role entails. And also what are the what are the ways things are usually conducted for everyone. And when the when your company is bringing in a workplace needs assessor, this is someone who really specifies in your condition.

So you wouldn’t have someone come and do the workplace needs assessment for someone who’s autistic, if they usually only handle people with physical disabilities, for example, it would always be someone who knows exactly about your condition. And then this is what this is what they would base their recommendation on the physical environment, the exact job that you do, and the exact setup in terms of working with other people, etc.

[Speaker 2] (21:22 – 21:29)
So what sort of things could they do to the physical environment to make it? Obviously, it depends on each individual, but could you just give some examples, please?

[Speaker 1] (21:30 – 22:08)
Yes, so there is things such as it being a bit more predictable, changing as well your your working pattern. So maybe you are in the office, when basically it’s a bit quieter, and it’s any terms of sensory overload, it can be managed a bit easier. It can be about moving your desk at at a floor that’s a bit, you know, again, quieter, and that helps you focus, or it can be just like more working from home as well.

If basically your workplace is in such a state that it’s really not conducive for you performing your role, then that’s as well part of the recommendations that they can come back with.

[Speaker 2] (22:09 – 22:51)
Okay, because I know with my son, because he’s in an open plan office, he says that there’s a lot of chitter chatter in the background. But in his words, it’s pointless conversation. So he finds it distracting.

So they allow him to wear you know, earphones, or and he can listen to a podcast as he’s working, or listen to music, so that he drowns out whatever it is that’s going on in the background. So that really helps him. He just said, and sometimes when he forgets to take his ear pods in, he’ll ring me me or message me, you’ll just sit on mama forgotten my ear and I always say to him always keep a spare pair in the drawer because he says I just can’t concentrate because he said they’re all just talking rubbish.

[Speaker 1] (22:53 – 22:58)
This is one of the things that’s yeah, cheer defenders or godsends.

[Speaker 2] (22:59 – 23:25)
Yeah, so yes, that’s, that’s something that so that’s something that can work. Yeah, so what about, say, for example, that somebody who has got a diagnosis, and they’ve applied for a job, but they don’t want to share their diagnosis because they’re worried about discrimination, which I’ve heard a lot of adults have had in the past. So any tips and advice for that?

[Speaker 1] (23:26 – 23:57)
Yes, of course. So it’s always about making sure that that you know, you’re comfortable when applying somewhere. So there’s a lot of things that you can do if if you really this is a job you really want to go for, but you’re obviously like worried about discrimination.

If you disclose your condition, you can ask for for like, what are the diversity and inclusion policies like, or you know, if they have a diversity and inclusion officers, you know, it’s the kind of question you could normally ask in an interview process.

[Speaker 2] (23:58 – 23:58)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (23:58 – 24:09)
And usually that helps get some form of understanding of whether or not the company is kind of working on it. And if you’re going to at some point feel comfortable enough to disclose your condition.

[Speaker 2] (24:10 – 24:16)
So what makes a good diversity and inclusion policy in your opinion? What should they be looking for?

[Speaker 1] (24:17 – 25:15)
So it depends a lot as well on the size of the company, but they need to have they need to have something in place and in an ideal world to have everybody feeling included. So they would usually have a clear strategy for it, rather than, you know, setting up random awareness session, etc. Usually they would have like a proper, a proper strategy for it, even if they don’t necessarily have a full team for diversity and inclusion.

At least, you know, they have a form of strategy. And this is something they’ve worked on. And you can really see the difference when you’re asking the questions to some companies, some companies are going to be, Oh, yeah, we’ve got, you know, that employee resource group, I think, or Oh, yeah, maybe we’ve got a diversity and inclusion officer.

But I don’t really know what she does. So often as if you start even basic questions, the answers you’re going to get, you’re going to see, you know, if the full company is really on board with it, or if it’s just like a checkbox exercises for them.

[Speaker 2] (25:15 – 25:19)
That’s the thing. And also, at no point having a policy, no one’s read it.

[Speaker 1] (25:20 – 25:21)
Yes, exactly.

[Speaker 2] (25:22 – 25:49)
It’s not like collecting dust on the shelf or, you know, sitting on the computer, you know, I would say that giving policies out to people start and work, I would I wouldn’t give the policy straight away, in my opinion, because I just think it’s a bit too overwhelming to read policies as well as starting a new job. I’d probably say this is my own opinion, but I think they need to start being the job for a few weeks. So then when they read the policy, it makes more sense.

That makes sense to you.

[Speaker 1] (25:50 – 26:20)
Yeah, because sometimes, you know, you might start a job and realize that actually, there is a quiet space for you to work in, or you can work from home whenever you need. And that’s in the end, you might not need to ask for that much adjustment. Yeah, this is another thing.

Or you might end up having a line manager who’s fabulous, and really just open to your suggestions and just agree with whatever you say you need. So it’s why it varies a lot from organization to organization.

[Speaker 2] (26:20 – 26:32)
So when you are contacting human resources, sometimes that can be quite daunting for someone who’s just starting a new job. What’s the best way that you can navigate a conversation with the human resources team?

[Speaker 1] (26:34 – 27:42)
Yeah, again, always make sure that you do whatever you feel more comfortable with. So if you prefer to talk directly with the human resources, rather than with someone in your team, then you can try to ask around and be like, oh yeah, in HR, who do you find most helpful, in HR? Who did you ever have to talk about?

You can try to gather information to be like, okay, I get a feeling that that person is the one who I might be more comfortable with. And then make sure as well that where you decide to communicate is a way that makes you comfortable. Do you prefer to have a face-to-face coffee ketchup?

Or would you prefer actually communicating per email? Would you prefer like a phone call? However comfortable you want to be, just make sure that you laid it out clearly before you do that.

And also clarify what will be the ideal outcome for that conversation. Is it just to let them know and kind of kickstart a process? Or do you have very specific expectations of that interaction?

[Speaker 2] (27:43 – 27:56)
Okay, so sometimes you may be asked to do an occupational health assessment as well as when you first start your employment. Could you explain a little bit about what that actually involves for somebody listening in?

[Speaker 1] (27:58 – 28:01)
Yes, so it’s very, this is something that tends to be much more top line.

[Speaker 2] (28:02 – 28:02)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (28:03 – 28:47)
And can be a bit somewhat less helpful. ISO companies do it where it was basically just a very short form to fit in that didn’t even involve having to do it with someone else. And this is something that will very often focus on your physical health rather than your health as a whole.

So it can be things about, you know, making sure that your screens are at the right place compared to your eye level. So you don’t strain your neck and those kinds of things. So this is something that can feel a bit not supportive enough based on the kind of needs that you might want to express.

[Speaker 2] (28:48 – 29:21)
So when you’re obviously in the workplace and you’re getting used to everything and then, you know, you’re having meetings, sometimes they can be a little bit tricky because obviously you’re in a meeting with people who might have been there for a long time and you’re just a newbie. So what tips and advice would you give to somebody with reference to formal meetings or even large working event meetings? I know my son finds the bigger the meeting, the more people that are there, the more he tends to switch off because there’s too many people talking at once.

[Speaker 1] (29:23 – 30:25)
Yes, 100%. I think trying to ask for what you need is always great. It’s not always easy, especially as you said, you’re new to a company, but you don’t have to ask to everyone for what you need.

So if the meeting is held by someone you know, for example, you could always ask, are you going to follow up with some notes after the meeting and action points? Or you could ask before the meeting starts if you can record it. Now on Google Word documents, you have a function for like voice to text.

So same thing if you know that things are going to be said, but as you said, you’re going to be in your world and you’re not going to necessarily be able to take actions from that. That’s another option. There’s now as well on many software such as Teams, the option to have it transcribed after it’s been recorded.

So there’s many different options. So it’s always first thought off could be like, what exactly do you think you’re going to need?

[Speaker 2] (30:26 – 31:23)
Okay. Now, especially now, and I’m talking from speaking to families and autistic adults within the charity, we’re living in very, how can I say, uncertain times. So it can be quite overwhelming for a lot of families.

And I know sometimes it can be quite overwhelming for my own son, you know, affecting their mental health and wellbeing. So what tips and advice would you give for somebody say, for example, they’re going into work on Monday or Tuesday, whenever it may be, and they’re just feeling overwhelmed by everything that’s going on or something might have happened at the weekend. What’s the best way of dealing with it and speaking to someone?

Because obviously they’re, I’ve spoken to some people that they worried about losing their job because of the way they’re feeling. They actually do like their job, but it’s just everything’s just getting on top of them. Have you got any tips and advice that may help people?

[Speaker 1] (31:25 – 32:26)
Yeah. Having a list for when you’re feeling overwhelmed can be really beneficial because when you’re in the eye of the storm, it’s really hard to take that step back and go, what do I need in that moment? So if you can make a list ahead of time about the things that help you, no matter what it is, if it’s, you know, like going in the bathroom just to be alone with the other defenders for a few minutes and recover.

If it’s going for a walk, whatever it may be, have a list not only for yourself, but also if you have one of your colleagues who you trust, that you can share with them. So at some point they can be like, oh, I can see that you’re a bit withdrawn or I can see that it seems like you’re stressed. Just wanted to say, have you tried number two and four on your list?

Or would you like me to go on a walk with you or whatever? Just having that list that you can craft and put together when things are fine can be really helpful.

[Speaker 2] (32:27 – 32:50)
So what’s acceptable to put on your list that a company would say, yeah, that’s fine. You can do that. And so say, for example, you’ve got somebody and then they go for a walk and then they come back and then they’re doing a little bit more of their work, and then they’re still feeling overwhelmed and they feel that they need to go for another walk.

What would you say companies would accept? Because obviously then you don’t want people worrying about, oh, shall I go for a walk? I’m not coping very well at the moment.

[Speaker 1] (32:52 – 33:33)
I think this is very difficult and really depends on one line manager to the next. You might have one that’s very mental health aware. And we take however many walks you need today or even take the day off if you need it.

And you might have one who’s going to be more strict and much less understanding. So it’s about striking that balance. And obviously depending on the company size, sometimes even talking to HR, she said that if your current boss is being too rigid, it might be that maybe there’s another team that is a bit more mental health aware where you might thrive.

[Speaker 2] (33:35 – 33:42)
So the role that you have, what sort of questions do you get asked by companies? What’s coming up all the time?

[Speaker 1] (33:44 – 34:53)
Yeah, a lot of questions actually. A lot of things around awareness and a lot of things around reasonable adjustments and a lot of pushbacks in that sense as well. Because it’s in that 9 to 5 grind culture thing where everybody had to get burned out to prove their commitment to the company.

Sometimes people are a bit frustrated out of that and they’re struggling to be flexible. They’re struggling to understand. So there is that loads of follow up questions in terms of when you say, oh, this is how you could do things to be more inclusive.

Oh, but how come? Because we’ve never done that before. Oh, yeah, but it’s not fair to the neurotypical employees.

So it’s really about sometimes trying to take it with understanding where they’re coming from, trying to understand where they’re coming from to help them and pick it a bit. How come you don’t just want to show compassion to your colleagues? What’s standing in the way of you being more understanding and compassionate?

[Speaker 2] (34:55 – 35:17)
Okay, I’m with you. So what do you feel about working from home? Do you think it’s beneficial for our neurodivergent young people or adults?

Or do you think it’s going to isolate them? That’s what I worry about isolating them even more.

[Speaker 1] (35:18 – 35:57)
I think that’s definitely a balance. And also depending on the working environment, because again, you have companies that are being very flexible, and it can be a nice balance. And then somewhere, it’s going to be a bit more difficult.

So I’m all for people being able to make the decision for themselves. I think this is the challenge when now you have companies that are mandating an amount of days a week in the office. I think this is too much and really infantilizing.

I think we need to trust people when they say that this is what they need.

[Speaker 2] (35:58 – 35:58)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (35:58 – 36:25)
What do you prefer? Oh, good question. I think some kind of mix is really nice because obviously there is something with the face-to-face interaction that can feel very different and where you can feel more connection, but also to the point that you’re so made, like the cheater chatter in the office when you’re trying to get stuff done.

[Speaker 2] (36:26 – 37:15)
I must admit when it was lockdown, I was just all zoomed out. There’s only so many zooms I could do. I actually prefer meeting people and sort of speaking to them face-to-face.

Obviously now with women’s radio, now everything’s on Skype, but I used to love going into the radio station and meeting our people. I was going to interview. We used to have a coffee and a chat, and then afterwards we’d have another half an hour or so and just saying, how was that for you?

It was just that interaction. That’s what I prefer. I know a lot of people quite like Zoom, and I know obviously it’s been beneficial so you don’t feel so isolated, but I must admit, probably a little bit like you.

I like a bit of both.

[Speaker 1] (37:17 – 37:43)
I think there’s also that problem where a lot of people are expected to do the same 9 to 5 that they would do in the office, even though in the office they would be interrupted every 15, 20 minutes by someone working up, saying hi, people chatting next to them. I think the working from home should be much more flexible than it is in its current form to actually be as beneficial as it could be.

[Speaker 2] (37:44 – 38:59)
I know that with having an adult son, he’s 30 and quite profoundly autistic. I take him to the college and drop him off. I’m quite lucky that my office is just around the corner from the college.

What I do is I drop him off at 9.30. I come into the office, and then if I have meetings, obviously I go after meetings, and then I pick him up at 3.30, and then I work from home, so I’m doing a bit of both. That works for me, and sometimes if my meetings go on a little bit longer, I only get seven hours rest back per week, which I probably could do with a bit more with the lack of sleep that I have, but say Tuesdays and Thursdays, for example. Angelo doesn’t come home till 6 o’clock, so if I’m going into London, I don’t have to rush back so quickly to get back home to pick my son up.

That’s what works for me, and I’m grateful for that. There are different ways of working, and basically it’s what suits you really, isn’t it? I just think since COVID now, a lot more people are more comfortable working from home.

Let’s talk about neurodiversion people setting up their own business. What’s your opinion, and what have you found?

[Speaker 1] (39:01 – 39:53)
I think when you’re in employment, a lot of it is about being forced into a mold, like the 9 to 5, the lunch break at that time, the meetings, whenever. The lack of flexibility can be very challenging, but equally it provides that kind of structure that some neurodivergent people really thrive on. So when starting your own business, it can be equally fabulous and daunting, but there’s now so much tech that can help with that.

There’s something that’s called motion that helps with organizing your whole calendar, which is like an AI-powered tool. What’s that called again? Just the people listening in?

Motion.

[Speaker 2] (39:54 – 39:56)
It’s M-O-T-I-O-N.

[Speaker 1] (39:56 – 40:36)
Yes, exactly, and basically when you use that, you set up the task that you have, etc., and motion basically organizes it in your calendar in a way that works better and that helps with your focus. As I was saying as well, the fact that now on Google Word, you have that voice to text. If you’re a person that is struggling a bit to put words to a page, etc., that can make it easier, etc., so there’s just so much tech now that can really help, and I think sometimes we’re just so stuck in our ways that we don’t necessarily use all of it.

[Speaker 2] (40:38 – 40:39)
What’s your opinion on AI?

[Speaker 1] (40:42 – 40:54)
I think it depends very much on what this is about. Personally, I’m using a chat GPT regularly when I’m trying to find, for example, a title for a workshop.

[Speaker 2] (40:55 – 40:59)
My husband uses it. He finds it useful.

[Speaker 1] (41:01 – 41:19)
It can be really good, especially when you feel a bit stuck with that. When you’re like, I have got a workshop, this is about this, this, this, and then can you give me 10 IDs for a title? And this is really helpful when you’ve got your own business, especially in that you’re a bit crunched with time.

[Speaker 2] (41:20 – 41:38)
It can be quite stressful having your own business as well because then you’re responsible for everything. Would you say it would take maybe a type of person to start their own business because it could get quite overwhelming and then, obviously, cause a mental health breakdown?

[Speaker 1] (41:41 – 42:38)
Yes, but there’s so many people that end up being stressed in employment to the point of burnout. I think it’s maybe more about how much does employment work for you that kind of pushes you towards setting up your own business. And then there’s always like, if you were looking at launching your own business and you type, for example, business incubator near me or business grants near me or things like that, or business mentoring near me, any of those now, there are so many options.

We’re really in that era where it’s really exciting to be able to set up your own business because you can have so much support and be talking to so many other entrepreneurs that have situations that are either widely different to yours or actually very similar. And it’s really exciting.

[Speaker 2] (42:38 – 42:43)
The people that you’ve spoken to that set up their own businesses, what sort of businesses have they set up?

[Speaker 1] (42:45 – 43:52)
Yes, so I’m part of a few things and through that I definitely met people that have done some things that are very different. For example, in a business cohort that I mean at the moment, there is someone who has a business which is about using a type of mushroom to do sustainable packaging, which is really cool and completely at the other opposite of what I’m doing. There’s someone who launched a skincare brand, someone who works on an e-learning platform, someone who became a dear friend of mine who created a very diverse and inclusive dose.

So there is really like… Yeah, exactly. And it means also that there is also a lot of industries that you’re going to be hearing from and sometimes like, oh yeah, they seem to say that that works well in that industry.

How about using it for my industry? Oh, I know they do that there. Maybe this is something that I could adapt for my business.

This is really exciting.

[Speaker 2] (43:53 – 44:09)
If people want to find you and look for you, so you’re the founder of the diversity in the boardroom, which is all about working with businesses to help them foster supportive, inclusive work environments through diversity and inclusion initiatives, especially for those who are new or diverse. So if people want to look for you, where can they find you?

[Speaker 1] (44:10 – 44:38)
So they can find me on Instagram at diversity in the boardroom, on LinkedIn and the diversity in the boardroom, and online on www.diversityintheboardroom.co.uk. Okay, so do you write weekly blogs and do you do workshops that maybe people can tap into? Yes, 100%. There’s a workshop that I particularly love that’s called You’re Not Lazy, You’re Just Stuck.

[Speaker 2] (44:39 – 44:39)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (44:40 – 45:05)
And in that one, we go through, you know, what we’ve been told lazy means, but all the other things that usually hides behind that word, that very judgy word. And how, you know, we like the right tools in your in your kids, you can basically crack on and people leave that workshop with like a very clear roadmap about what they’re going to do next to go where they want to go.

[Speaker 2] (45:06 – 45:11)
Okay, so where can you see yourself in about five or 10 years time? Have you got ideas of what you’d like to do?

[Speaker 1] (45:13 – 45:53)
That’s a great question. I think, yeah, definitely developing what we’re doing more. I want to set up a few, a few e-learning courses on my website that I would love for companies to be able to use as part of their onboarding process.

Because very often when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion, it’s like an ongoing effort. But if every time you’ve got someone joining, they have to complete that course, you really can ensure that you’ve got that very base of understanding and of equity being fostered in your organization. So that’s one of the exciting things.

[Speaker 2] (45:53 – 45:56)
So you’re working on your own? Is there a team up here?

[Speaker 1] (45:58 – 46:09)
Not a team per se. I’ve got a fantastic PR and a fantastic SEO expert. But in terms of the actual delivering of the workshops, it’s just just me for now.

[Speaker 2] (46:09 – 46:10)
Okay, do you enjoy workshops?

[Speaker 1] (46:12 – 46:25)
Yes, very much so. It’s fantastic as you see people who can be somewhat strangers at the beginning of one being like sharing some deep things by the innovative. Yeah, it’s really beautiful to see.

[Speaker 2] (46:26 – 46:31)
Can you just name some of the workshops that you do so people might listen in, might think, oh, I might tap into that.

[Speaker 1] (46:32 – 47:21)
Yeah, I’ve got one that’s called Lead Like an Ally, which is about more inclusive practices. When you’re leading a team, there is one who is build your own resilience toolbox. And here again, we go through quite a lot of exercises to figure out some tools that you can create for yourself and tap into when you need it.

There is and it’s kind of always growing in terms of the workshop base, because obviously companies have different needs. People have different needs. So every time that I create something ad-hoc for a particular situation, I usually try to replicate it.

So it works for more people. And for John, I’m putting together a 30-day challenge for change, which I’m very excited for as well.

[Speaker 2] (47:22 – 47:31)
So you’re a busy bee. So how can we navigate entrepreneurship when neurodivergent?

[Speaker 1] (47:33 – 48:13)
And I think, again, I mean, I know it sounds very, very easy, but knowing exactly what you want from your business and what you’re doing it for, there’s the trap when you start your own business of overworking yourself and doing crazy hours and working every single day. So I think if you started your business because you wanted to be able to have a better work-life balance, be more flexible around your needs, then that’s something to have at the forefront of your mind before you even crack on. I think that’s really the thing about starting your own business, the fact that there is no more rules can be a bit detrimental at first.

[Speaker 2] (48:13 – 48:23)
So if you wanted to pitch your business idea before you really got into it, where would you pitch it to? How would you go about doing that? And what sort of information would you need to share?

[Speaker 1] (48:26 – 49:31)
So first, I guess it depends as well on your financial situation. Of course, some people can be like fully on it, some not necessarily, but always try to look for any kind of support that you can find around you. Even if you’re just at the ideation stage and that you didn’t register your company or anything like that, just look for it.

And you can use as well apps such as Blinkist, for example. What is that? Blinkist, B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T.

And what is that? This is an app where they do basically audio summary of books. So when you’re starting in business and that you’re trying to figure things out, it can be really helpful to be able to listen to those kind of snapshots of what to do when it comes to that aspect of the business, what to do for that.

And it can be very helpful to show you the direction where you need more information or where you’re like, oh, actually, I might rather delegate that bit.

[Speaker 2] (49:32 – 49:54)
Okay, so to pitch your ideas, is there a specific forum? I suppose you’d need to be careful as well so that nobody else would steal your idea. So where’s the best place to pick and who to pitch it to?

I just wondered if there was some sort of forum and then maybe you’d have to sign an agreement to say you wouldn’t steal their idea. I don’t know. I don’t know how it works.

[Speaker 1] (49:54 – 50:03)
Yeah, so it depends a lot on where you’re looking at. But for example, there’s a lot of things that all kind of government-backed scheme.

[Speaker 2] (50:03 – 50:03)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (50:04 – 50:30)
And in that case, you know, the only people that are going to technically see your pitch or hear about your pitch are basically people that are working for that particular government entity. So the chances of them going away with your idea are a bit slim. But equally, you have to like submit a whole folder about what’s your business about, what’s your idea about, etc.

So there’s kind of record of that as well, of you submitting it.

[Speaker 2] (50:31 – 50:43)
Do you think banks, sorry, I was just going to ask about funding. You know, do you think banks are more open now to help you opening more businesses? And could you recommend where to find the initial grant to start off?

[Speaker 1] (50:44 – 50:58)
Yeah, yeah, 100%. So again, there’s lots of local loans. So definitely something to have a look at, grants, etc.

See if there’s something in your area. And there’s as well a government-backed scheme that’s called starter loans.

[Speaker 2] (50:59 – 50:59)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (51:00 – 51:15)
And this is something where you can get up to 25,000. You have to like fill in an application, etc. But this is really something that’s like to make sure that there is more people that can, you know, get into business.

And that’s really like a good one to go for.

[Speaker 2] (51:16 – 51:39)
Okay, so obviously, we’re a program about mental health and well-being. So we need to look after our own mental health and well-being. So I’m going to ask you, what do you do to look after your own well-being?

Having two little ones, trying to run a business. What do you do to keep yourself sane?

[Speaker 1] (51:40 – 52:18)
Yeah, so I haven’t been too good with that recently. But I’ve put together a list of quick fix and longer things when I really need to like relax and regulate my nervous system. So on my quick fix things, it’s like things that take like 30 seconds or less.

Like, you know, deep breathing doing the plank or like jumping jacks, just so I can get, you know, back where I need to be. And longer things or things such as making sure that I do find a way to run three times a week. I’m renovating a doll’s house at the moment.

[Speaker 2] (52:18 – 52:19)
Oh, are you telling me about that?

[Speaker 1] (52:21 – 52:38)
I just got a doll’s house on eBay and you know, just the process of, you know, finding the tiny furniture for it, painting it, et cetera. It’s very soothing and relaxing. But then the following day, my four-year-old and my two-year-old are almost smashing it to pieces.

[Speaker 2] (52:39 – 52:48)
When is it ready? When is it going to be ready, mom? Or is it something where it’s just for display purposes only, or is it for them to play with?

[Speaker 1] (52:49 – 53:02)
No, they play with it, but they’ve got access to it. So if I’m painting something in it or that, you know, I’ve got to glue something in it, I do it in the evening. So by the morning, it’s all dry off and they can, yeah.

[Speaker 2] (53:03 – 54:37)
Yeah, it brings back memories for me because I remember when I was about four or five years old, there used to be a gentleman across the road from where I lived and he used to make doll’s houses. And I remember I said to my mom, I wanted one for Christmas and he made me one for Christmas. I was just absolutely loved it.

I don’t know what happened to it in the end, but I just absolutely loved the doll’s house and used to like make stories up of things that were happening and use little, you know, people or whatever it was that I had. But I just remember loving that doll’s house. I remember I had a red roof, it was made from wood.

It was very clever, this gentleman. So I think it’s good for creativity to make stories and what have you. So memories apparently.

Say that again. And the memories apparently. Yeah, definitely.

I can picture it now. You know what, I haven’t thought about it for years and years. And you’ve just made me think about that.

I remember I had a red roof and it was like white wood that he’d painted and all the little furniture that was in it. I absolutely loved that house. So yeah, thank you for reminding me.

You might get orders now of people bringing in, saying, can you ask her to make me one? There’s another business idea for you. So yes, and you talked about jogging.

I’m running. I couldn’t think of anything worse. I tried it.

It just doesn’t do it for me. I prefer dancing. I do love my dance and I do love some burren exercise and I just think it’s a good stress buster.

So once again, just to remind people, if they want to find you, where can they find you?

[Speaker 1] (54:39 – 54:46)
So on diversityintheboardroom.co.uk, when you can see as well the list of upcoming workshops and so on.

[Speaker 2] (54:46 – 54:47)
So when’s your next workshop?

[Speaker 1] (54:49 – 54:52)
There’s going to be, there’s a date pending end of November.

[Speaker 2] (54:52 – 54:52)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (54:53 – 54:54)
Although you’re not lazy, you’re just stuck.

[Speaker 2] (54:55 – 54:55)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (54:55 – 55:04)
That’s quite recently. Are diversityintheboardroom on Instagram? And yeah, diversityintheboardroom as well on LinkedIn.

[Speaker 2] (55:05 – 55:24)
Okay. Are there any books that you could, you would recommend or booklets or website links that for people listening in that might think, oh, I might try my own, setting up my own business or, oh, I’m not quite sure what to ask my, the HR team to make things better for me. Is there any sort of links that you could share?

[Speaker 1] (55:26 – 55:49)
Yes. So when it comes to neurodiversity, I mean, neurodivergence in the workplace, there are two people on LinkedIn that are absolutely fabulous and who are called P T Wambi. W H A R M Y.

Yeah, I’ve seen that. And, and Ellie Middleton. Yes.

They’re, they’re absolutely fabulous. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (55:49 – 56:14)
Ellie’s on the Jack website. Just ask a question website because she did what basically we were asked to do a hundred questions they asked us. So Ellie did it.

And then I did it myself as a parent carer and also married to a man that’s on the autism spectrum. So it’s been really interesting talking to you. We’ve got a few minutes left.

Is there anything that you would like to share that I haven’t asked you.

[Speaker 1] (56:17 – 56:40)
Yeah, just, just mentioning as well. If there’s anyone who is a woman who is a late diagnosis or a woman who thinks that yeah, she might, she might be autistic or might be neurodivergent as a whole. I think you just know that it’s valid and that many women who have been taught so well to mask as they grew up, that it’s only coming up now.

[Speaker 2] (56:40 – 57:04)
And I know there’s a lot of people who are complaining about people getting, you know, their self-diagnosis from TikTok, but yeah, whatever you, you know, so much stuff on social media about that same people getting their own diagnosis from TikTok where some of it is not such good information that they’re picking up. Yeah, it’s a bit frustrating. I think social media can be a good thing, but it can also be a negative thing.

What’s your opinion?

[Speaker 1] (57:05 – 57:14)
Yeah, I think it’s definitely, it’s definitely a balance, but if it helped like a lot of people kind of considering it, I think it’s definitely great.

[Speaker 2] (57:15 – 57:26)
So out of interest, do you get more, what type of people do you get that approach you for advice or would you say it was more female, male, neurodiverse?

[Speaker 1] (57:28 – 58:09)
Yeah, a lot of, yeah, way more women for sure. Okay. Especially when it comes to the one-to-one work that I do.

Then for companies, very often women as well, not always, but I’d say probably 80% women, because yeah, very typically, you know, people who are working HR department, diversity and inclusion team, well, a lot of them are female. And then in terms of neurotypical versus neurodivergent, I honestly have no idea. I would say, I would say probably a somewhat even mix, but as it’s not necessarily a question that I’m asking.

[Speaker 2] (58:10 – 58:10)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (58:11 – 59:03)
Yeah, not sure. We have a thought of writing a book. Yes, kind of.

But there’s like a lot of different things, probably the workshop that is about leading like an ally might be one that I would want to turn into a book. Surely because even from like the 10 years where I’ve been employed myself, I’ve seen so many leaders who had, you know, the simple opportunity of showing how they were learning and how they were unlearning, but never really took that chance. And I think that, yeah, if we could have more neurotypical leaders who could be like, this is who I’m following on Instagram.

And this is the book that I’ve read this weekend that really opened up my understanding towards the people who lived experiences that, yeah, don’t want to be a much better place.

[Speaker 2] (59:04 – 59:47)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for talking to me. It’s been really, really interesting.

And if you’ve missed some of the links that Florence has been talking about, they’re going to be on the charity website. If you couldn’t quite grab a pen or you didn’t get the information quick enough. So just to remind you, it’s www.annaKennedyonline.com.

If there’s any great resources out there that you feel that should be on our resources list, please send them in to us, or if you’d like to be one of my guests on All Things Autism, please write into the charity website, or you can contact Women’s Radio Station. So I just want to say everyone, please take care of yourselves one day at a time, everything that’s going on, and really look after yourselves. And thank you again, Florence.

It’s been lovely.