Hello and welcome to Women’s Radio Station. I’m Dr Annette Greenwood, life coach and author. And on today’s show, Dr Annette talks, we are discussing a very sensitive topic for many listeners.

For many, a cancer diagnosis can be the most devastating news. So my guest has chosen to share her empowering journey she lovingly calls, laughing with cancer. My guest today is an amazing woman, Annie Heikune.

Annie is an engineer by training, a two-time cancer survivor and the founder of VAN, the world’s most positive platform for people affected by cancer and for those striving to make a difference. Annie has an MBA from Oxford University, Sayad Business School, MPS in Natural Resources Management and Policy from State University of New York and Cerosa University, New York. Annie is also the founder of the Annie Heikune Cancer Treatment Support Foundation and has previously worked with the World Wildlife Fund, United Nations and other international organizations.

For her work and leadership activities, Annie has received numerous awards and the most recent one is the Women of Arts Award, Changing and Impacting Lives Share Award 2023. I just want to welcome Annie and say what a huge achievement this is for one woman and to be the founder of something so amazing as well as surviving cancer, not just once but twice. Welcome, welcome Annie to this show, it’s so lovely to have you today.

Hi Annette, thank you so much for having me. I’m super excited to discuss this, we tried this once didn’t we and we had a little bit of a technical blitz, so here we are again going through your amazing journey and I’d like to, if you’re quite happy to do this, just share a little bit about, well there’s your vision and your mission with VAN, if we could go back a little bit and if you’re happy to share about your, some of your story and your cancer diagnosis because this is such a very emotive subject for many people but women in particularly who may have had breast cancer or have just been newly diagnosed. How did it happen for you and where did that kind of take you on your journey? Yes of course, well thanks very much Annette again and so well you know just to say I had been, well I used to be and I’m currently am quite you know a hard-working person and I had a lot of goals and one of those you know like it was in my list, on my list and in 2015, in April of 2015 I got accepted into the MBA program of, at Oxford Science Business School at Oxford University and I was so excited really that my goal and my dream was going to come true and I was preparing to come to Oxford, the plan was to come to Oxford in September of 2015 and in July of 2015 I went to a hospital, it was just a just a shake-up and it turned out that I had, that I had like late stage breast cancer so my plans changed and certainly well my doctors told me that I couldn’t travel and that I had to take my time, take a time off and get treatments which I did of course I got in touch with the Oxford team and I told them the news so they kept my place and said look recover and come to Oxford we are waiting for you so that’s where my journey started so I’ve been in treatment on and off since 2015 and I started my chemotherapy back in 2015 and soon my story became public and because I was, I was talking about my experience and my friends actually came together to do, to do a campaign and this soon has you know it became, it became a campaign to, to impact thousands of people not only in you know in one place but in a lot of countries and I realised that there was so much that I had to learn first of all about, about that disease and I had no idea before it and I learned about the experiences of other people and, and their families going through cancer and a lot of people reached out to me I would say hundreds of thousands of people, more than one thousand people who reached out to me and said look we’re following you, we’re following your journey and and it seemed like my, my life became, my life and my you know my journey, my battle if we would so say, it would say so it became, it became their battle and there was, there was unity and there was so much in the meantime you know understanding and mutual understanding and connection with those people and there were certainly a lot of, a lot of stereotypes, I realised there were a lot of stereotypes around, around cancer and then what I did is that I, together with my friends we started to work on projects in order to break those stereotypes literally.

So in 2016 I finished my treatments, my active treatments and I was ready to go so I came to Oxford, I did my MBA successfully while being on treatment, I was still receiving some treatment and in 2019 my cancer was back, I had recurrence and after my second diagnosis, the recurrence I started developing VAN, the current company and yeah I’ve been, I’ve been working on it since then. That’s a huge, huge change in your life isn’t it because you are a young woman and so to kind of all of a sudden be diagnosed with late stage breast cancer as well, it wasn’t in the early stages, that must have been a huge shock but what I, and what I hear about you is that you’re not seeing cancer as the enemy are you, you are from my understanding and our discussion you’re respecting cancer not hating it, now that’s a difficult mindset to get into isn’t it for somebody who sees it as a disease but as a disease that’s attacking the body and that they’re, you know you are fighting it and I hear all the time where people say about right so we need to kill this, we need to do this and that almost sounds like you are, you are waging a war doesn’t it, am I interpreting that right? Yes very much so you know and right from the, right from the beginning my approach to this you know to to the diagnosis was okay we’ve we’ve got something new in here let’s see how we can you know how we can understand it and how we can go through it so right from the you know first couple of minutes when when the doctor told me that hey this is this huge, this is a huge tumor that you’ve got and I had no idea because I had this very active life and I used to do hiking and anyway but that probably was some sort of you know just a reason or a sign if you need to take to take a break and and reevaluate my life and you know see what I can what I can do differently and absolutely I don’t look at cancer as my enemy and I don’t look at it as you know as a disease that I need to kill and I need to fight it that we need to you know we need to battle it so hard this is this is the enemy this is the it’s like I hear many people say that this is the enemy of the sanctuary this is the worst thing that can happen to people and I disagree and I disagree for first of all for a very simple reason is that while we don’t know you know we don’t have the full information to all information we don’t know 100 what happens when we get cancer we know how you know how cells react and how cells work there are different types of cancers so we can’t you know generalize it for for everything but one thing is clear is that those are our cells cancer cells are are in our body they are part of us and we can’t go against them we can’t hit them we can’t you know have this negative attitude towards our own body it’s not it’s not going to help us and I’ve said that for a couple of times is that we can’t succeed in what we don’t like uh if it’s a career let’s say we’re doing a job we can’t you know have a successful career we don’t like that space if we don’t like what we’re doing the same goes to our health instead of hating what we need to do first of all you know to understand look inside okay what what has been going on with me and what I can do in order to help myself and if I have this attitude and I’m also reserving treatment with now and now we have high quality treatments available then the chances that I’m going to succeed and I’m going to recover it’s quite high and I in terms of the battle in terms of the fighting this disease I do believe that and I do use you know fighting sometimes but what I mean by saying it is that being on treatment sometimes requires you to have this kind of the approach and understanding that you know you will suffer you will have some side effects from treatment so you need to wake up every single day knowing that yes you need to you need to eat well you need to have enough liquid you need to go for a walk you need to exercise you need to be active and positive and that’s and that for me that’s what the battle every day means it has a different meaning than at all and you know it’s it’s not the battle and the fight against my body and against this disease it’s it’s something that reminds me that I need to you know I need to leave my every day and just take it easy and keep that positivity and that must be difficult at times and what I find so interesting as well is obviously with my background in coaching and you’re working with women at different levels and when you say to them about you need to go inside yourself and do some searching which it sounds like that’s what you did it was you went inside yourself it was almost correct me if I’m wrong a bit like a spiritual journey where you were doing some soul searching about what you could change in your life maybe as you were saying there you were reflecting on it and what you could do differently how did that play out for you was it a case of you you know you did the soul searching maybe you meditated or something else and these things these insights were coming or is it something that you were having to consciously think about if that makes sense yes so there has been a lot of a lot of work that that I’ve done and most of it you know has been has come actually naturally so and right from from 2015 I well one thing I need to I need to emphasize on it is that the first couple of minutes when when I was told you know imagine I’m in a room with my you know with my mom who was with me that day and and the doctor is telling me how you we found this tumor and it wasn’t the exact diagnosis but they said you know they found something it looks like yeah it’s cancer and and something changed in me I can’t explain but I I kind of went back and I’ve realized and I’ve analyzed instantly in my mind things that were so that I thought were so important for me before before those wars before that you know the diagnosis I realized that they were not important and things that I remember things that I you know carried with me and memories and they were not important anymore what really was important is it was my was my family and my mom was there and I saw that she was she got quite emotional when she when she heard that you know heard that news I thought about my life and what is it that I would like to do and I haven’t that I didn’t do but by then and I would like to accomplish what something really changed and that the process started right from from 2015 and then when I when I received you know when I connected with my friends and people it came it came to me and I felt that attention I felt that support and there was there was a lot of work that was that was done naturally and I based on well and I realized that the impact that fortunately my story was was having on other on other people and I figured okay then it means that I have some job to do I I can help those people I can represent them and I can I can talk about those issues and I can talk about those problems and and and when I came to Oxford and you know this was a new appearance for me it was the business business arena business people and I had to deal with with those people in the meantime to make sure that you know I keep my spirituality in place and there was some meditation or something you know just not more you know kind of formal meditation that I would do but I would certainly take some time off and when I have the have the opportunity I take that time off and I and I reflect and I think about things that I can I can focus on and I can and I can change and I can analyze and understanding that what I should do is I should focus on things that that I can change that are in my control I shouldn’t try to control everything because there are things that are out of my control and spending energy and spending you know time on things that I can’t change especially doesn’t make sense so the I would say the cancer has helped me so much first of all to to understand myself to grow personally and well of course you know professionally because the whole period the whole journey has helped me gain skills and knowledge that I’m that aren’t applying in my current job at my current job and in some ways listening to what you’re saying there it’s been a transformative cancer has transformed you in your life if you approach it with a different attitude and just on that you were saying earlier about how fit and how healthy you were some people might be listening and they might be thinking well what’s the point then what is the point of me looking after myself and taking care of being fit and healthy if you can still get cancer I may as well just state McDonald’s every day or whatever it is you eat or continue to eat junk food and drink heavily because it won’t matter but I don’t believe that to be the case from what you’re saying being fit and healthy has actually helped you part way on that journey am I correct absolutely yes and we certainly we don’t know why why I got that cancer because it’s not in my family uh James it’s not coming from you know from my mom or from um you know it’s not in the family so there had to be some external factors or whatever or whatever happened I I don’t have the you know the information we don’t know yet but me being so so active and having the healthy lifestyle helped me so much in my recovery process and I reacted to treatments quite well I I was able to you know stay active I my my mental health strange it was mentally you know I do believe that I was strong that I’m and I do believe that I’m still mentally strong and and those are interconnected um so if if I was just you know someone who lost her hope and gave up and she she didn’t you know she didn’t have she would she would give up easily and she would she didn’t have the goals that I know it’s I um I had done probably the the the whole process would be different and I again I don’t want to undervalue the the you know the importance of of treatments of of of the um of the therapies and of course there are important part of you know the recovery from this disease but I do and I do think simultaneously that we need to um we as individuals we need to have you know our our mental health state our approach our attitude towards the the diagnosis towards our health are also important so it’s the just two factors combined can have an impact on you know on our recovery and I’ve seen I have seen um people who there were seven treatments with me and we had completely different outcomes me who was so you know I don’t want to repeat but you know so active and positive and so on and I was able to recover and go after my goals and I knew at least one person who was on stress he was stressed constantly every single day and especially when I would see her during chemotherapy treatments or in the hospital she actually lost her hope and we had the same diagnosis we we had the same you know we were going through the same the same treatments the same stage and she she had different outcome and she had to kind of repeat her treatments so it’s a different story so it does really matter how we how we approach things and how we define the problem how we define a challenge we we as a you know as individuals we decide what we how we can how we can face and and what we can do with that particular challenge we it all depends on what we see uh you know to me there is no problem there is not a definition of problem there is a definition for me uh of you know something that happened let’s call it are not a challenge or let’s give it a different word and that something has come to teach me something that I can there are there are two options I can either learn from it and I can take it a lesson and um I learned it I learned about it and then I go you know and I move on or the second option is that I you know just give up and I get affected so much by it that I get I get stuck in there so so there is a lot of uh certainly reflection there is a need for a little reflection and um and uh understanding our you know our mind and and yeah just deciding what what what we should do when things like that happen to us so there’s a a couple of things really stand out for me here um which is about the holistic side of it the holistic care along with the treatment that you received as that that mindset change that you need to have in order for you to be able to cope and get through this and one of the things that um you said about problems do not exist it’s how we see them that makes a difference and I just love that quote and it it kind of brings me onto the little bit about the fear you know the the word fear the word cancer instills fear into people in general doesn’t it so as you were saying earlier that that first two minutes you’ve got your mum with you she’s upset there must have been an emotional response in you because you weren’t expecting it I’m guessing or maybe at this stage you were but that that fear will be present in all of us for something like this and it’s how we manage that fear we can either let it overtake us and eat away for once the better word or you can do what you’ve done you can change your mindset you can be positive you can keep a healthy mindset despite how you must have been feeling because you must have been feeling awful at times but that has all helped you and it also what inspires me as well is and I’d like to go on to van in a moment but you’re talking now again still all the time talking about your goals what is next for you before we go on to van or is van around what is your next step your next goal what is your vision and mission for the future does it encompass van alone or are there other things that you want to achieve yes well and I thank you very much for that so van is my you know is my is part of my future it’s it’s it’s the it’s the company that I’m building and I believe that it has the potential to to change a lot in in cancer care and cancer research space and help people affected by cancer millions of people and help motivate them so van is part of my it’s it’s it’s immediate but in the meantime you know a long-term goal as well and of course I have um you know other things on my list and and I believe that they will go together with van so I I established van I started to work on van right after my second diagnosis and it’s a funny story and I left you know telling it is that when I when I went to see my doctor for the I had the appointment and I had no idea that I had that I had cancer again that they found a tumor and I was in the in the meeting room and my doctor came and read you know the papers with all the paperwork and the test results and said look um I need to tell you you you need to start the chemotherapy again we found we found the tumor I wasn’t thinking about about cancer and I wasn’t scared of it and also especially that I went through it and I had that attitude right from the beginning but what I was thinking about is okay I had this idea of van I had the idea of developing a company and developing something meaningful and impactful this I thought okay this is the right time for me to start building this company and that’s what I did and while my doctors were preparing my treatment plan I was literally designing the the business plan and I said I applied for the Oxford University Innovation incubator program because I was a Oxford alumna and they had resources and opportunities for oxonians to to to be part of the you know the incubator program and of course if the business plan the business idea really made sense so that’s what I did I accepted into it and I started building a van simultaneously I would simultaneously together with my treatment so I would go to the hospital which received my chemo on the same day I would go to the incubator we had a co-working space and yeah I’m just I would continue work working on my um on van and the staff and people that you know the staff at OUI the Oxford University Innovation the incubator the people who I I worked with they saw that happening they saw you know that I was I was very committed it it was my passion and it is still my passion and this is this is how I built van I tested it in emergency departments and in hospitals I would talk with my fellow cancer patients clinicians nurses and and I believe my approach was well okay I am on treatments and I’m going to recover you know why don’t I in the meantime use my time wisely and see what people say about about this idea and soon from from a project they became a company and I knew that while van is my passion and while I’m also a spiritual person I do like to think of it that there is there is a lot that I can you know that I I reflect and I think differently in in the meantime I realize what I’m building I’m building a company that has the potential to help so many people and make a difference and within that the company van I’m intrigued I’m intrigued to know what van stands for but um if you’re happy to share that with us also you’ve got this community now haven’t you and you’ve had this ongoing from when you had your diagnosis and people heard about your story so I’d like to to know more about the community that you you’re working with and serving and how van helps them and I know you’ve got an app I know very much about that so I know there’s like two or three things there but is there something specific that van stands for um well well nothing actually that’s specific but van is is meant to uh kind of it needs to open a new path for for innovation and it means positivity in the meantime but it doesn’t have this direct meaning such only that we could translate that word uh from or into but um and I very much hope that in the future van would is going to be associated with you know the positivity and and with inspiration when the company goes and you know becomes um an an organization that a lot of people in different countries know about um yes there was a community and there is still a community of people who have been very much following my my journey from years ago and we’re now building that community and we’ve um so we’ve basically our product our offering the offering of van is a digital platform it’s a it’s a mobile app and soon we’re going to have also the web app so we’ve gone through testing we’ve done our prototype the minimum viable product we went through beta testing successfully and we released our app literally a couple of months ago in in uh in june and so what is really unique about van is that well it it’s such a fun and positive tool first of all it it has been designed to help people who’ve either been diagnosed or who have been through cancer they’re in remission it helps people to you know to take some time off from from sold a hospital and kind of the hospital and um and and the environment that reminds them all the time about about their disease and it it it has so many positive elements in there first of all we provide helpful information about treatments diagnosis clinical trials if they would like to learn about we use trusted sources we do our own research most of the time and i mean the information currently that we offer it’s uh we do desk research and we we provide our findings to to our users we provide also updates and news and on the on the you know on the spice interesting facts that people would like to probably learn about which they should know we we provide also informal nature and art therapy something informal because it’s not a medical device it’s not the formal therapy that we do but what would be what we offer we have a page in the app it’s called sea of tranquility that’s that’s what it’s called now so we post beautiful images of animals or nature and landscape and so on sombu will also have artworks presented there works of artists from from different places the idea behind this is just to make it available to the user and they can they can just scroll through it then and enjoy their time and we know that positive things and and research research shows that positive things and positivity and colors they they can help heal and we also offer in-app surveys so those are short questioners that cover currently we have four surveys and we’re going to we’re going to add more uh more things on the on the app and we cover topics that have been emphasized by uh you know by other people that it would be good for us to learn about the experiences of other people so we plan to analyze the information and see what are the important insights it’s something that we’ve introduced recently is the is a dashboard but basically provides instant data instant stats statistical i wouldn’t say it’s kind of deep statistical but it’s a it’s a data that shows the user based on their survey questions where do they stand compared with other other users how their experience is similar to other people which is i think fascinating and we plan to build this future a future more and make it more personalized in the meantime we we have we have a unique tool part of our as part of our app it’s called make smile so basically what it does it allows the general public uh people regardless of their health and situation they can be just like regular people and not not connected to cancer at all so they can dedicate their activities to someone affected by cancer from from our users so for instance if i want to go for a run this weekend or i’m going i go hiking or i do rowing or kayaking or i bake or i paint whatever i do i can choose that option just pick the option on the app and write a nice message saying hey uh you hope you are well and i’m doing this run doing this 5k or 1k runs for you and dedicating it to you we are with you even if you don’t know me but sending all my love and positive vibes your way something like that it can be a different message but and i send that message this can be very powerful for the recipient for the person who’s going to receive that message that person may be in bed recovering from from their treatments or that person can be can be in a you know in a in a better place in terms of i wouldn’t say in a better place but let’s say they are not even in treatment but they are in permission but they need some sort of inspiration they you know nice things can always help and there is no right or wrong time for it and uh we can we can make such impact with that with just one simple act of kindness especially that it’s free of charge and it takes literally probably at less than a minute or it depends you know what you write or what you’re you can also attach an image but the idea behind this tool and the idea behind van is actually to provide the information make it available the information and all those tools to the to the users who will help find them helpful but in the meantime to unite people from around the world come together help one another for for a better future to you know to make a change and it can be done it’s easy it’s yeah so it doesn’t matter where you are in the world are they because you can you can log onto this app and as you say you can be doing anything it could be baking you could be gardening you could be um as you say out maybe out in nature or with animals and sending your inspirational message to somebody who really could do to receive it because being on the receiving end of something positive as we both know is very uplifting and inspirational so there’s also something about that energetic exchange isn’t there that that positive energy we all know sometimes you walk into a room and it feels really flat and you think oh my goodness this is just not good you can walk into another room where there’s a room full of people who are uplifting and being positive and that lifts your spirits so what you’re doing here then isn’t it as i’m listening to you talking there’s a scientific side of it where you’ve got the support of the medical profession as well you’re doing all the research into it and that’s all valuable all of it and then you bring it back to the basics of make smile where somebody who may be alone because not everybody on their cancer journey has family members do they and to receive something like this it’s truly remarkable and as you say it’s something so simple and you don’t have to have a diagnosis to be to be doing this so for anybody listening out there you know it’s just a case of is it a case of downloading the app and then just cracking on with it and doing something positive a random act of kindness to lift somebody else’s life up indeed yes and it’s it’s very simple to do and it’s and by the way you know when when the user when you when you download the app you don’t have to provide any personal information you don’t have to create an account in order to use the to use the app there are some tools that you can get access to you know if you if you have an account but you can use that tool and use you can use the make smile tool without even an account if there are people you know who are who may not like to you know who would like to explore it and who would like to use and it’s quite easy to do and we we have a as part of a dashboard that you know that I’ve mentioned we’ve introduced quite a fun a digital reward system so basically depending on the more smiles you you dedicate the more smiles you sign the more people you make smile the more kind of your status changes so we currently have like a kind heart donor of smile a motivator so it it reminds you like okay the more good you do to people it reminds you that you have a kind heart it says that hey you’re you’re doing well this is you know you’re moving forward you’re helping people and and we are very grateful to you and that could be another type of motivation to you know for for for people and um and and what I would like to actually ask uh people is that there is no need to be scared of you know of rude cancer I know people who might be afraid of it who may like to avoid and like healthy people and I say um oh I would like to be I’d like to be away from anything connected to your cancer board because I don’t want to get it I don’t want to get cancer I I’ve seen people I’ve met people who have that kind of an approach we we’re actually breaking stereotypes we we’re making a difference there is no need to be scared of we’re doing something very fun in the meantime we are realizing and being a you know a cancer survivor myself and um and and then advocate myself I my heart goes for everyone who’s been affected by cancer and who’s gone through treatment I know it it may not be easy and but this is this is the solution that we that we are offering uh the positivity and support one another understanding what we’re doing and understanding the core kind of the you know the challenge or or what we are dealing with but we can’t make a change if we you know stay scared and we we have the sphere all the time uh because and by the way one quick thing on it I would like to mention is that the the idea of make small tool has come from my personal experience when I was very well I would say you know the treatment phase that I was in 20 in uh in 2015 my friends and people that I didn’t know they would come together they would organize a lot of events hiking activities concerts and and they were pained and they would dedicate it dedicate those activities to me and I realized oh wow this really helped me in the meantime to kind of inspire me it made me feel loved and supported and the love and attention that I received from from my family from my friends and from other people now I wanted to share with other people who will who will benefit from it so it’s so this this tool has been based on my own personal personal experience as well so it comes from a place of authenticity doesn’t it and and personal experience and the thing you there were you talking about you know you found me and your friends who supported you and I’ve a few conversations and you know that I’ve got a family member who was recently diagnosed with cancer yes hello the way he was told in my view wasn’t probably the best way he’s an older person in a hospital bed on his own nobody with his family present and then as a family once that diagnosis has been given you’ve got to kind of pick up those pieces there seems to be an almost where it’s very clinical how people are told and maybe this was just one example and in other cases it’s not the same but it’s very black and white and there seems to be no bigger picture looked at so for for me as a person I am my support is very positive and optimistic and you’re talking about their future and saying you know doing things like qigong with them you know positive energy into their bones where it’s apparently spread to and it’s even if it’s just that one thing and you have got like you say you’ve got family and friends who are supportive that is so nurturing isn’t it that is so uplifting but what about people who don’t have that support that family and friends so somebody who’s newly diagnosed with cancer where would they begin would you say yes you need to speak to you is it your oncologist or whoever you’re working with at the hospital but then reach out to you or to van to then form part of that journey of recovery would that be the way to deal with it yes absolutely and one of the reasons that we’ve we’ve involved we are including the you know this interactive kind of tools within the app within the platform and the style that we have the you know the approach and every detail has been designed considering the you know the needs of other people based on experience and what would help other people yeah i would recommend that you know people who have been diagnosed or people who don’t have the support and maybe they’re away from their family or their situation is a bit different which they can reach out to me um first of all as an individual as a fellow as a fellow patient as a you know someone who’s gone through it and they can um i would strongly advise them to to join one to to download it from the google play and app store it again it’s not invasive at all and they can give the try and we plan to develop this further this is going to improve so much in the future become the plan is actually to to become the number one tool for everyone affected by cancer and who can go there and get the you know get the support that they that they need but it’s a very sensitive topic and we need to be aware of well it’s a very sensitive topic in terms of you know the support of the people that have because again not everyone has the has the network because of different reasons again and people can be private they may like privacy they may not like to share you know their experience with other people and people have the right to do that we can’t you know we can’t force them and there are people who are more you know who like to speak about their story and share their story and people who just like to be there and just keep keep privacy and what i would strongly advise everyone regardless again of their of their health situation whether they they they have they have cancer that have been affected by cancer they are healthy or they know other people who who have cancer just just be kind to one another you never know what that person is going through you never know and being kind and you know you don’t you don’t have to do anything special just saying hello how are you just sending a nice message to someone that you know you know may may need that or may not need that that that’s what probably we need and um on on a daily basis and um and van has come actually and van is one of the one of the solutions that that we provide it spreads love and and positivity and um yeah just take care of you know one another and um and be well and i can certainly feel that love and positivity for you you know from you for other people who who may be struggling or or suffering and there’s something there again about people being afraid to reach out to somebody who’s got cancer because they don’t know what to say they don’t know how to approach it um and it’s almost like that that fear that barrier is there and so they don’t do it and like you were saying they don’t want to go into a hospital ward because they don’t want to catch it and they’re all myths aren’t they that they are you’re dispelling all of those and you’re saying reach out it’s it read a reach out to somebody who’s got cancer there will be everybody will be in a different place on their journey no two ways about it and the thing you said earlier about people wanting some privacy not everybody wants to talk about it some people just want to live with it deal with it but i would i would like to think maybe i’m being idealistic here that the majority of people would want that support they would like to reach out and something that really touches me is about the is it the sea of tranquility that you were talking about that really speaks to me because i know some people who would dismiss this and i know some medical people who would dismiss it and they say it’s absolute rubbish it doesn’t work but putting yourself in a sea of tranquility or artists pictures in a in a place where you feel safe and nurtured surely that’s got to have a positive impact on you in mind body and spirit yes yeah so that’s the that’s that’s the idea behind sea of tranquility and uh and it’s it’s it’s it has come to uh again to emphasize the need for us to to see things that especially in this you know digital era that we that are often you know i know i know many people who used to be so close to nature but they are not now close to art that they are not now and we bring that your nature and we bring art closer to people who aren’t able to go there and who aren’t able to you know go to our exhibitions so go and have some time out so the positivity is part of something that we that we certainly need and uh you know regardless of where we are uh health wise but yeah and i very much hope well that you know one is is is uh is gonna is gonna help people and uh and a lot of people and especially that as i said it’s not invasive people have their privacy there we don’t we don’t track them we don’t and do all the weird stuff with their with their data or with their personal data so they can they can have their privacy as uh you know and use the app in the meantime and if you do because you’re a human being like all of us and if you do get a day where you are feeling maybe a little bit deflated something’s happened or you’re just feeling unwell how would you manage that would you kind of remind yourself that it’s okay to have days when you don’t feel well or it’s okay to take time out to rest and recuperate you wouldn’t be beating yourself up with a stick and saying right Annie i need to be at this i need to be on these 24 hours a day how would you take care of yourself now knowing what you’ve been through and having all those little tips and techniques that you have in your own life yeah yeah yes of course um i’m a normal person and i’m a human and there are times when i do feel like look i this is this is enough for today and i need to take uh kind of a time you know off so i think what i’ve what i’ve started doing right after my diagnosis is is is to understand my limits so before what i would do is that i would push it hard i would i wouldn’t pay attention to okay if i’m tired i’m going to do this like i used to work on several projects simultaneously and now i realized okay i can’t like i know the limit this is the limit this is how much i’m going to do and it’s quite a lot anyway during the day but when i feel like okay this is i need to rest then i need to rest and uh what i also say you know and i and advise other people and friends as well it’s okay to say it’s it’s okay not to be okay if you have a feeling like all right i’m not it’s not feeling right i’m not i’m not okay today it’s that’s fine you can’t be 100 percent every single day if that’s if that’s the feeling that you’re getting if um um if you feel something is wrong or maybe this isn’t the right time or you wouldn’t like to do that particular activity then that’s okay just take a take a time off take a day off or uh and um and you know uh recover and whatever happens remember that those are temporary things it’s it’s important that you stay focused um and again but it doesn’t have to be intense um it’s important that you leave your your life you know your day to the just just enjoy your life and and just keep keep going and what helps me uh in the meantime is that uh i’m uh for me family values are very important i i have a very close contact to my family and my friends uh and when i i know uh like when i want to uh uh when i want to talk with my with my family or with the people that are close to me i you know i just connect with them and it’s important that every person just thinks what is it that helps them when they need support and there will be people who will just go out and go for a hike or be in nature or watch movies or connect with other people and just find your inspiration and find your um you know source of of feeling that helps you and that um that’s about being kind and compassionate to yourself isn’t it it’s about not beating yourself up because you don’t you know you’ve got 10 things on your list that you were going to do that day and you get to a point when you go no enough’s enough i’m leaving that until tomorrow now some people call that procrastination and in many cases you you we both know there are areas where we can procrastinate in our lives but if we’re listening truly listening to our bodies and nurturing them and taking care of them having a rest is the thing that will energize it again you know it will give you a mental break from everything um it gives you that downtime to just recoup and there are days where they’re busier than others and i know from experience when i go gosh wow i seem to have been at it full day then the following day i’ll pull back a bit so you’re balancing that out aren’t you and one of the things um i just wanted to touch on as well and i’m smiling when i’m when i’m thinking about it is about laughing with cancer um and it because it’s such a serious topic isn’t it that idea of the laughing with it how on earth we laugh with we laugh with cancer i’ve just got my eye on the time we’ve got two minutes left but i’ll give us a reminder in a bit as well but how on earth do we laugh with cancer what are we laughing at are we laughing at cancer are we laughing at something on the tv or on a podcast how are we laughing well you find a reason to laugh that’s that’s very simple i guess just keep it keep it you know take it easy and just realizing that hey you you can’t help yourself if you’re just like states or series all the time and be scared and stressed all the time and think about you know every single minute that i know like you know like you just you just take it easy have fun laugh if you have cancer or you have other stuff that’s going on it’s uh you’re gonna help yourself so much and don’t forget don’t forget about you don’t forget about that positivity and again doesn’t have to be toxic positivity you need to feel it from you know from inside life life is really good you’ve got just one chance you’ve got just one life this is this is the life that you have been given and just live it that’s live it live it to the fullest oh gosh we’re now in the last sort of 30 seconds coming up to and i can’t believe this hour has gone so fast on a one of the things that i wanted to share again before we go is problems do not exist it’s how we see them that makes a difference and i just love that i wanted to say huge thank you to annie today for coming on and inspiring us please check us out at women’s radio station remember you can find us on instagram twitter facebook linkedin thank you for tuning in to doctor net talks and until the next time sending you all love and blessings goodbye