Both C.G. Jung and Sigmund Freud chose myths to underpin their theories. Jung felt a kinship with the story of Parsifal and Freud with Oedipus, both powerful and totally contrasting aspects of the father-son relationship. Parsifal healed his symbolic father, whereas Oedipus was jealous and murdered his father. Both myths echoed their own father-son relationships, which permeated throughout their work. The psychology of both myths is fascinating. Parsifal is one of my favourite myths, and I believe a myth of our time. Joseph Campbell was a master of mythology, having written his world-famous book 'A Hero with a Thousand Faces.' It was heralded for the hero's journey, which became a template for many films, the most celebrated being Star Wars. The hero's journey, or the monomyth, is now the common template for stories that involve a hero who goes on an adventure, is victorious in a decisive crisis, and comes home transformed. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska. You can find me on www.mariakempinska.com, and this is Your Mind Matters. When I practice psychotherapy, it's clear that every client has their own story. Every story is fascinating and revealing, and once we recognize our own story, it can act as a guide. And for those who like astrology, it too is a combination of myths. I often give a longer introduction and could go on, as there's so much to say on this topic, and it's one of my favorite areas of knowledge. Today I will continue this theme with my guest, Dr. Anastasios Gaetanidis. Who holds a string of accreditations: a BSc Honours in Psychology plus an MA and PhD in Psychoanalysis. He is a font of all mythological knowledge as well as a professor at Regent's University teaching counselling and psychotherapy. As his name suggests, he is Greek and mythology clearly is in his blood. I'm truly excited and delighted to say welcome to Dr. Anastasios Gaetanidis. Thank you, Maria, and thank you for joining me today. Uh, I know how busy you are and you have lots of clients as well as teaching. Thank you. Yes, can I just start right off the gate before we go into your own background? How does mythology help the individual and how do you use that in your work? Um, I think mythology itself can be become very enlightening, and it helps to give a direction and a point of identification with people that feel quite lost sometimes, and they need some guidance in their lives. And I think mythology can provide this framework for them, a narrative with which they can identify and lead their lives to points of transformation and change. So when you deal with the client, and, uh, do you actually point out that their lives are similar to a certain mythological story, or do you hope that they can find it? I think a little bit of both. Sometimes they are the ones who suggest certain myths or certain heroes they identify with from mythology, or I point to certain mythological figures that they might identify with. And of course psychoanalysis is full of examples of myths and mythological heroes that can be used readily, you know, and they are readily available. Yeah, it's such a shame that people don't read so much nowadays, actually. Yes. I don't know if you find the same thing. I have people— I've actually had somebody who came in and took a photograph of my bookcase because he couldn't believe how many books I had. And I thought, that's weird. But now we can access everything, even online, which is fabulous. Can we go back to your story? So how did you end up in England? Oh, well, the official story is that I came here to study and I stayed, and, you know, I found work and I got married and developed a family here. But This is the official story. The unofficial one is I was trying to run away from things that were quite painful, and, and in order to find some refuge in another country, which was Britain, and, and develop a different kind of life from the one I was offered and the conditions I found in Greece. So This is the unofficial story, and running away from a painful family environment and a very small city, and coming to London and finding my own sort of way of being and creating my own circle of friends and a family of my own. And how did you find that? Did you— my parents were immigrants, but you're directly an immigrant. And how did you find being accepted here? I think for me it was really a kind of blessing that I would be able to be accepted for who I am and, you know, what I had to offer, whereas there were not, you know, conditions of worth placed on my sort of contribution. Whereas in Greece I felt, and in my family environment, I felt that this lack of acceptance, recognition. So that was the reason that I felt welcome here, and I found a kind of refuge for— and a career path and a way of being that was amazing and wonderful. I felt really welcome and really accepted, and And I still feel that way, although things have changed over the recent years. You know, I still feel very much accepted and very much part of this country. Is that because you've gone into psychoanalysis and counseling? So does that in itself give us a pass to be any, you know, sort of from any country? I think partly is that. I think I found my own sort of specific niche, and I think psychoanalysis and psychotherapy provides that environment and that home. In many ways, it felt like, you know, looking back at it, it felt like there was no other way that I would have gone apart from following this path, which is, which is, you know, really weird because I always, as a teenager and later on as a young adult, I wanted to study psychology and go to psychoanalysis. It was like a desire for me, and when I did, when I became a practitioner and actually I taught psychoanalysis, psychotherapy at the university, it felt like I was coming home. It was a homecoming. Yes. And what did your parents do? What was the expectation when you were growing up? My parents were, you know, they didn't even finish primary school. They were, you know, they were— my father was self-employed. He had his own little business selling perfumes and cosmetics, and that was his. My mother joined his business, but she was very much looking after us. And they didn't have any expectations for me being educated or being involved in psychoanalysis. That was very much matter of the schooling and the influence I had at school, which gave me a ticket out of, actually, of my family. And the interest I developed, I developed in school and with friends that I made when I was a teenager. Yeah, that's so interesting because my father told me when I was a teenager two things not to do. One was go into entertainment and the other was to go into mental health. And I did both. And you know, I do think there's something in, uh, the boundaries that your parents set, in a way, the expectations they set, because it does help you find your own way. Because if that's where you're going to go, it's like that water, it's like the water is going to go where it has to go. Yes, yes. You know, and that's the same. Um, and somehow, did you feel you had to leave Greece in order to do that? Yes, very much so. I think it was, uh, it was for me was a way of finding my own fate and assuming my own agency and my own autonomy fully, as fully as it is possible of course, because we are not always masters of our own houses as we know from psychoanalysis, but still is allowing me to make the choices and decisions that I had to make independently from my family and my family's sort of expectations, which was to follow the family business and to carry on with that. But for me, it was, it was, it was more imperative that I followed my own desires and my own wishes. And that's why I had to find my own path in, in a kind of contrast to the expectations of my family. So do you have siblings as well? Yes, I have a younger sister who has taken over the business from my father. Oh great, and is she quite happy doing that? Yes, she is. Yes, she is. And that works for her? Although recently in Greece, because of the austerity and the crisis, the financial crisis, things have been really tough. The pandemic didn't help, of course. Yeah, I do wonder whether Greece because it was the epicenter of culture, wasn't it? At the center of civilization. How the Greek people must feel about being where they are at this moment in time. And, you know, so I quite like the rebellion they went through a little while ago. Yes, I sort of felt that for them. I mean, my background's Polish, as you know, and, you know, I, I quite like a little bit of righteous rebellion. Yes. Um, and that's quite healthy. And I do feel for the Greek people and the Greek culture. Um, actually, one— when I sort of left home, I did end up going to live in Crete for a period of time, um, and worked out there, which was fascinating. There is something— there is a different energy, isn't there, in Greece? And I, I hope it regains its autonomy and, you know, gets back to, you know, bringing out all its cultural riches so that everybody can see those and that they can feel it themselves. Money, uh, sometimes is always a difficult part of our world, but we don't want to go into that subject just yet. Um, but psychoanalysis— there's different forms of therapy. Most people don't understand this, and they think a psychiatrist and a counselor and a psychotherapist and a psychoanalyst and a psychologist are all the same people. What made you go into psychoanalysis? Is that because you went into it yourself? I think one of the things that made me go there is, is I'm always interested in the things that we want— we don't see directly, things that are invisible, things that are not quite obvious, and, and but for some reason they determine us behind our backs and And for me, it was very important to look for what is not said, what is not seen, what is not obvious. And for me, it was always— but also is the one that really provides a lot of, a lot of interest for me and, you know, motivates my interest and my curiosity. And that's why psychoanalysis was of interest. I remember my— there is a scene in a movie, in a Greek movie called, you know, The Spice or something along these lines. And in this scene, there is a grandfather who says to his grandson, you have to look for, you know, you have to look for the things that are not seen, but they give taste to food, like spices or like salt. Salt, you cannot see it, but it's the thing that gives really a real taste to food. So look for the things that other people don't see but you can find. So that was my motivation, in a way, to look for the things that both give, you know, a different flavor, a different spice in our lives. Sometimes which can become too much and actually can spoil the food. Yeah, but also on another level, we cannot live without them. Yeah, and isn't it, you know, even Freud said sometimes, even though he's— when he did in his analysis of dreams, which were always sexually based, you know, sometimes the cigar is just a cigar. Yeah, there's no other symbolic meaning. And I quite like that too. Yes, uh, you know, it's like the psychological puzzle, isn't it? I love that because it is a puzzle, ourselves or others. And who did you go into Jungian, or was your analysis in a Freudian school? Um, I think I had multiple sort of analysis. One of them was Freudian, Kleinian, and the most recent one I have is more relational, and I would say inspired by Jung as well. So there is a more sort of a different flavor from the original, more classical analysis that I had, which actually, as a practitioner myself, I moved away from the classical Freudian model. And I'm more inspired by relational psychoanalysis. And actually, I have— I trained in relational psychoanalysis in New York the last sort of 5 years, and it's part of the way I practice right now. And can you go into that a bit more? What makes it different? What makes it different, it moves away from this one-person psychology, which is the intrapsychic conflicts that, that take place between the id, ego, and superego that Freud describes, and they move the emphasis in what happens between the therapist and the client, the analyst and the client. So it's more in the subjective two-person psychology focusing on the processes, the unconscious process of communications that they move from one person to another and back again, to the transferences and countertransfers that take place within the, within the, the relationship. And instead of focusing so much on the intrapsychic one-person psychology, the Freudian, the Freudian model is based on. So you can actually bring yourself into the room Do you— can you divulge aspects of yourself? Yes, yes. Thank God for that, because I think we're out of that time, aren't we? People want to know who you are in the therapeutic relationship because that gives them the strength to know that they can overcome whatever they're overcoming. And is it, um, that is so powerful and so important? I do think we are in a time where people need more and more guidance. Than ever before. Are you finding that in your work? I do, I do. And actually what I find which is very powerful, it's the moments of meeting and moments of connection that people need, where you're meeting them not as an expert or as a figure of authority, although they also sometimes need some benevolent authority in their lives. But I think what, what is required is meeting them in your own vulnerability and being able to to make yourself vulnerable without being afraid of that and meeting them in that moment. And that makes all the difference in the world when they are able to meet and connect in that moment with you, with people who are very scared and very vulnerable themselves. And I presume over this past 2 years you must have had taken a lot of that on board. There were so many people that were so afraid And did it make a difference that you were dealing on Zoom or by telephone? I thought at the beginning would be, would be really difficult, but actually I found that, you know, this gave me the opportunity to reach out and connect to people that normally I wouldn't be able to, you know, because of geographical distances or, you know, because of the reality of the pandemic, which was impossible to meet in person. So in the beginning became a kind of a necessity, but then gradually it had its own benefits and, and also provided a level of connectivity that it wasn't, it wasn't possible before. So I was quite grateful for technology and the ways that we are able to meet these days, and also had provided access to therapy to people that they wouldn't be able to give access before, which don't live in London, they live in other parts of the country, they can't get access to quality therapy, and now they could. And I think it's, it's, it has a kind of almost democratizing effect, and, and, you know, can spread therapy to parts of the country or parts of the world sometimes that it wasn't accessible. So I think it makes what the dream of psychotherapy for more people possible again. Yeah, and also I found that it actually, as you say, enables you to reach people that may not have this style of therapy in their own culture, which I think is fascinating because although they might know about it, is how do they access it? And this has sort of broken down that barrier. I found it quite interesting, the difference between interpreting what the client wants via Zoom or phone to actually seeing them. And, um, but it's often you can not quite see them in the way that they actually are in their body shape and so on, which is apparent when they come into the room. But all those things you can work with, which is very— which is very powerful. Um, and when you were going through your own analysis, uh, how long did you have to go through that? At the beginning, I had, uh, uh, 4 and a half years of analysis with, uh, 3 times a week. And, uh, recently— and then that was part of my training. And then I, I recently, I had a twice a week therapy that I ended before I started my second training, relational psychoanalysis. And I continued while I was doing it. Now I'm 7 years into this, but I'm doing it as part of my own development and my own sort of self-care, more than anything else. It's something that is part of my life and part of my self-reflexivity and self-care. I think it's terribly important, but it's also difficult to find— it's important to find the right person, isn't it, that you can relate to, especially on that level? And therapists do take a lot on their shoulders, don't they, with clients? It's also terribly important to have a view where you can actually, as they say, not quite carry the clients into your own personal life. And I think it's important that— but also it's important that, you know, to realize that we will be affected and we will be influenced and we will influence and affect others. Especially our clients, and it's not always possible not to carry it. So you need to find ways through supervision, through your own therapy, to take care of yourself and manage, manage your anxieties and your own pain that you feel when you are with people who are in a lot of pain themselves. So it's absolutely crucial that we find ways to take care of ourselves in order to be able to take care of others. But do you find also— they always said this in the training, and when you read books, they say it. And it's absolutely true that sometimes your clients will reflect a part of yourself, will come in with the issues that you actually— not that you've submerged or resisted or anything— that just needs to come to the fore for you to deal with. I, I think, I think that's absolutely true. I think sometimes we get the clients we deserve, and, you know, and if we need, we need— it's because we also need to get something. And in that sense, we become co-travelers in the journey that is required for both the therapist and the client. And it's very important for us to be able to recognize that and recognize our own vulnerability in the process, that we are also in this journey. We are not just standing outside of it or simply observing it. And I think that's terribly important to know that, that, you know, sort of we are all here sort of together in that respect, because otherwise we wouldn't be here. I think— I don't think people very often try, you know, sort of giving them an understanding that we are part of this human condition. And I think, you know, so everybody— there's a lot of people who are trying to, um, take over the role of whether you believe in God or not, that sort of mystery of life that we all come together. And scientists are trying to sort of take over that side of our lives, which they never will. And I'm really pleased to say that. I don't think that we want to have everything proven because, you know, as soon as they start proving one thing, they'll find mystery in something else, which is fabulous. Um, so you do your own development and you see a number of clients, and is there— I'm going to ask you a couple of, you know, easy, easy but interesting questions. Is there a TV program that you think reflects therapy, so if people have never been in therapy, they can understand what actually happens. Is there something that you've watched you think, oh yeah, it's quite like that? I think there was, uh, you know, there was In Treatment. Yeah, it was brilliant, wasn't it? That was really good. Although it also showed the therapist who was going through his own problems, his own difficulties, and how this affected his work, but also how it improved his work on certain levels, but also negatively affected it on some level. But the treatment is one— I think the, the one that recently is taking place, which is Couple Therapy, I found it really very interesting with Orna. I can't remember your surname. She— it's a very interesting program and portrays therapy very favorably, because usually the portrayal of therapy in the media is very, very negative. And It doesn't show that therapy can actually save lives and you can make people really get in touch with very vital aspects of themselves that can sustain their future and give them hope in times of despair. And I think, you know, I think what Orna does with these couples is very useful and portrays therapy in a very positive light with all its difficulties and It doesn't give an idealistic view of therapy by any means, but it's very realistic but very positive as well. Yeah, because I think we need that, because a lot of people have today have been sold the story of, you know, oh, take my course and I will transform your life in a weekend's course. And I think I've got mixed conflicting feelings about that. One is that, you know, oh yes, you know, that at least that opens the door for them to understand that it's not the end and there's so much more to us. On the other hand, I feel that they've been cheated a little bit. Yes, because there's, you know, that they— I actually had a discussion with somebody about, uh, Jung's, uh, idea of individuation, and this chap was saying, but individuation means you achieve perfection. And I said, no, wholeness doesn't mean that you're going to be perfect. It means you just understand that you're not perfect, in which areas you're not perfect. In and the triggers and so on. And once people understand, you're never going to be perfect, but you can strive towards understanding yourself better. Do you agree with that? Absolutely. I think, you know, on some level, this ideal of perfection is an anathema. It's actually— it makes people suffer unnecessarily. If you accept the idea that you have to be good enough, and there is a certain level of incompleteness that is part of life, that, you know, we have to strive for, for, you know, for something that fulfills us and satisfies us, and, you know, but not for this sort of illusory perfection that creates unnecessary suffering and makes people more neurotic. Yeah, you know, and, and I think this is, this is something that needs to be, you know, to be avoided at all costs. I think perfection is is the enemy of good enough. Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, sort of for us as human beings to strive for that actually is a bit— I think it actually can spoil life. Because if you think you're constantly striving for that instead of striving for the enjoyment of getting there or finding a new aspect of yourself and trying to come to terms with that and putting the piece of the puzzle together of yourself, If you're looking for perfection, you won't find those extra elements to yourself and what you can do in those areas when you're going along for the ride. Would you use comedy in your therapy? I think there is a lot of use for humor in therapy. I think I find it very— because sometimes, you know, it's very difficult to give certain aspects of full interpretations which I sometimes avoid. There are painful truths that if you find a way to give them with a little bit of humor, they become more palatable. And I think humor is a very crucial aspect of the therapeutic relationship. If you're able to have humor and be playful with it, you'll be able to offer sort of some very painful truths to your clients without without having to resort to an unnecessary seriousness, which can actually become very heavy and very, very difficult. I think, you know, for therapists to have humor is absolutely crucial. And I do think, because when I meet people, and it's easier slightly for me because I'm both in the entertainment world as well, so, you know, as soon as you say, oh, you know, I'm a psychotherapist, it's like, oh no, don't analyze me. I said, of course, come and sit down, you know, let's, let's do this now. But, you know, I think that it's all having a joke around that area, making them feel more at home, that it's easier to talk and unveil yourself through humor is fabulous. Yes, because it is that, you know, parapraxis, the slip of the tongue. And if we can identify that and play with that a little bit more, that can be very healing and much more interesting in life. Mm-hmm. And I think for me, it's again, it's how you use different ways of bypassing some defensiveness, you know. Humor is very good at that. And I think we need to take away the seriousness, I think, from the whole enterprise of self-knowledge. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, sort of the world is difficult enough. That's chaotic. And although you can't make order out of the external chaos, at least you can find some humor in actually that paradox, because that's what humor is about, isn't it? Yes, it's taking those two conflicting areas and actually making them funny. Yes, I agree, I agree completely. So do you— how do you find that your work affects your family life? I think I'm lucky enough to have been married to a therapist, and so we are, we are both in the same profession. So she understands my own sort of, my own life and my own, my own work because she does the same, and we have a deep respect for what we do. But it does provide a lot of Sometimes when other— my clients' lives take priority and the work takes priority, and sometimes the personal life suffers, then you need to be very careful not to bring back the balance. And we can get absorbed with, you know, the pain of others and forget that we have our own suffering and our own pain that we need to focus on. As well as our own fun and our own enjoyment that we need in our lives to, to not, not always focus on the, on the client's problems and the therapy and the seriousness you mentioned. And there is, there is other parts of life that you need which are fun and enjoyable. I know that, and they can be found in relationships, in the relationship, and which sustains it and nourishes the relationship, and not just the serious painful suffering, but So it's— that's the way it affects. But I think we can, you know, I was able and lucky enough to strike a good balance between the two, between the seriousness and suffering and pain that happens in— and I witness in my work and the fun, engaging, enjoyable part that I find with my wife and my friends. Yeah, I think that's so important, isn't it? I mean, when you look at Freud's life, I mean, he used to analyze his daughter all the time, didn't he? That did worry me when I was reading that because, you know, sort of, she almost never came out of his shadow. Absolutely. And she paid the price for it. Klein analyzed her own children, and, you know, look what happened to them. Yeah, you can't do that, can you? You've got to be so careful. About that. But Klein, I think, is often underrated. Yeah, in her work, I think it's so powerful what she did, and, you know, immense in the work that she did. But somehow I think people shy away from her. Klein, if anybody who's listening, is very much dealing with the young age group of greed, anger, early stages of rebelliousness, really, and independence. And it's very powerful, isn't it? I love her work, actually. I think it's the way it was written in those days. I think if it was to be written again, it would be in a slightly different tone. I agree, there is— there are a lot of important aspects in Klein's work that we have to take seriously. And, you know, and actually there is a lot of— there's a lot of hope in Klein's work, despite the fact that people see only the depressive position as the only representative of your work. I think there is She talks about gratitude and people forget that. That there is a development moving away from this depressive position to, which is the position that you accept, you know, you feel remorse for the damage that you've done to others, to feeling grateful that others exist in your life and feeling this gratitude, you know, filling up your life and feeling enjoyment from this gratitude that you have. Important people that you can depend on in your life, and they can depend on you. And do you think, uh, the spirit of the spiritual nature with which Jung brought in— do you— how important do you think that is in not only in your own life but in your own work? I think, you know, I think for me Jung's contribution of the collective, of collectivity, and the sense of spirituality he brought is is widening, you know, seeing, seeing, seeing our lives being widened and broadened into, into the spiritual and direction is very important. I think there is something about the collective unconscious and that is, is really crucial and gives another dimension to the work that I'm doing at the moment with my with my clients, and myths are part of that. You know, mythology serves to get us in touch with that collectivity, with that collective unconscious, I think, which is very crucial. So before I ask you which are the myths that actually impacted on your life, tell me about your view of mythology. Why is it so important? I think mythology I think what has happened is there has been so much emphasis in our times in terms of the Enlightenment tradition and modernity that— excuse me— that focused on rationality and science and explain rationally things using consciousness and rationality as the means of explaining the world. That became quite totalitarian and in itself, you know, tried to take away the mystery from the world, disenchanted the world and took away all this mystery. And I think on some level, you know, mythology in itself can become very enlightening about the mysteries in the world and the ways that life is not rationally explained all the time. And there are elements of it that are unpredictable and difficult to imagine. So, you know, so planning ourselves in this— planning our lives in this absolutely rational and logical way doesn't always work. The future is unknown and we need to keep it that way. And I think mythology helps us understand that and how the hero's journey is always something that is not not predicted from the beginning. The narrative is, is open. Yeah, I did, um, I think I mentioned this to you, I did something called Speak Your Mind, which I'm going to do again, and I've spoken to you about doing that and, um, taking out these stories to the public in a far more informal setting. Because, uh, and when I did one of these actually just before COVID started, this was in January 2020, uh, and I was explaining the hero's myth of things are thrown at you, you are put into a crisis and you have no idea why or how to get out of it, and something comes from within that enables you to overcome this. And as I just said, and we all know, you can't go through a crisis and come out without transformation. That's the fire, isn't it, that transforms you. And I think, you know, a number of young people love hearing that because they can now see a future. Not necessarily a rosy future that we were talking about a short time ago. Yes, come to my course and you'll find Nirvana. No, but they understand that life can throw things at you that, that, as they say, the curveball, the incident that will change your life, the event that will transform your life totally. And you know that you can pick it up and run with it, and then something good will come out eventually. And it— you might have to go through a number of different problematic areas before you get there. Absolutely. Yeah, but understanding that it's happened before, and a myth means that it— this has happened before, and this is a route that people have taken in the past, so it's not new. And I think it's sad that it's not being taught at the moment, that they need to sort of grapple to find that that something, that template, if you like. I think that's why TV and film are so powerful. But coming back to this, what are the myths that you identify with? I think it's the myth of Odysseus for me. And I think talking about the hero's journey, that's a journey and a half, isn't it? With all these challenges and difficulties and various encounters along the way. Yeah, can you just give a brief synopsis of the story of Odysseus? Well, Odysseus— of the Odyssey, yeah. Yeah, Odysseus was a king of Ithaca, and he was recruited to go to the War of Troy, you know, and spent 10 years there. And he was the one who invented the horse, the wooden horse that was was given as a gift to the Trojans who they brought into the city. And of course, the Greek army was, Greek soldiers were hidden in there while everybody was drunk thinking that the war was over. And they won, they came out and they slaughtered them. And then he paid the price for that because the gods punished him for the hubris that he committed. Exactly. They gave him, they, you know, in his return, his return journey back home, they gave him all sorts of trials and tribulations, you know, and he had to stop in different places, meet several challenges before he was eventually able to, and was tried and tested, before he was able to return back to Ithaca and meet his son and his wife. And reunite with them. So it's a journey, it's a kind of myth of homecoming, but the homecoming that is by any means is not straightforward. No, but I love that, you know, the whole point, as I was explaining it as well, is that, you know, after he had won and been very instrumental in winning the Trojan War, it's like he stood on the edge of the sea saying, look at me, I did this, And I think that resonates with so many people. Yeah, look at me, I've done this, I've built a company, I've, I've, you know, just won the lottery, I've done this, and I— aren't I amazing? And the gods were, really? Let's see how amazing you really are and take you on a journey, you know, that you have to actually— now that your real journey begins. Because as you say, you know, we are in a world where human everybody's experiencing that. I am amazing, you are enough, you are fantastic, you know, you have something in you which is, you know, the best thing since sliced bread. And then suddenly something happens and they fall off that pedestal and, uh, graze their knees and sometimes lose an awful lot more. And that's where the struggle begins. Yeah, I agree. And I think that was the struggle for Odysseus. And he— there are different parts of the story that are so meaningful to me from beginning to end. I think you mentioned at the beginning Parsifal and Oedipus, but Odysseus gives us a different version of paternity as well. Yeah, father. He was, you know, the— his relationship with his aunt Telemachus is the one that send him to war to start, because when they came to recruit him for the Trojan War, he pretended to be mad and that he— in order not to join, not to be able to avoid joining the army. He didn't want to be recruited by his fellow kings, and he pretended to be a farmer, you know, using, you know, using a kind of ox to farm the land. And then they put in front of the ox his son, Agamemnon, one of the Greek kings, put the son in front of the ox and say, if he's really mad, then he wouldn't recognize his son and he will try to, you know, he will kill him or he will, you know, he will not be able, but Odysseus, you know, saw his son and avoided. So out of paternal love, He returned, he joined the Greek army in the Trojan War to avoid killing his son and protecting his son. And then I think there is something about his love for his son that kept him going and wanting him to return back to Ithaca as well. Of course. I always thought that that was also one of the instrumental sort of aspects of the relationship he had with his son. He didn't want to just leave him behind thinking that his father would never return. And that's what kept him going and eventually made him return. And also it keeps the child going. Yeah, you know, the longing for the father, whether they do return or not, there's always that longing. And I do think that's why these myths are so powerful. The reason I was saying about Parsifal being, uh, only because I use these— I use Parsifal in my PhD Yes, because of the healing component that Parsifal, you know, sort of to the symbolic father, there's— we need that so much in our day-to-day world. And I'm a big fan of the male, uh, using humor to actually heal their own pain, their own traumas that they've gone through. Yes, because I don't think we come into this world unscathed. Everybody goes through something. I often have clients that say, oh yes, but I know people that have had much worse than me, you know, I've not been abused, I've not had this, but there's always pain somewhere and they have a right to that pain and a right to explore that. Yeah, and, and for me this, this aspect of the father-son relationship, you know, there is a version of the myth, I think, that Telemachus then sets off on his own journey, but, uh, you know, and he moves and he He has his own adventures. And in many ways, this happened in my own life, and I identify because my father was a refugee from Asia Minor and moved to Greece. And so it feels like I had to— and he had to find himself in a new country, which also was his country, you know, because he was a Greek living in Asia Minor, but he had to, to leave because of the, of the political situation there. And then, and then he moved to, to mainland Greece. And then for me, I became an immigrant in my own, in my own turn. I went into my own journey, find my own way. So it feels to me that this myth resonates with me on that level as well. But on many other levels, there is, there is, you know, one of the famous sort of points in the narrative and the story of Odysseus is the meeting, you know, where he meets the sirens, you know, and the sirens are calling him, right? Yes, and don't they just? But he ties himself to the mast and he has— he puts, you know, wax into the ears of his of his companions, which they row very fast, but he's the one who listens to the songs of the sirens. And he, but because he's tied to the mast, he is not tempted to go and see them and find them. Of course, will mean his ultimate destruction because that's what sirens did. But you see, I always, I was always puzzled how someone can listen to the song of the sirens and not want to go back even later on, right? I always thought, how is it possible to listen to this magical, wonderful song which actually speaks directly to one's soul and not wanting always to return back to that? Oh, isn't it? There's other sort of stories, and I think this comes from India, that area. One of their stories is the most beautiful woman that when you actually end up being with this beautiful woman. She actually sort of— I was going to say dissolves, but that's not quite the term— but she turns into this old lady that's in the, in the coffin, and she falls to pieces. Yes, you know, you take off the mask and that's what she is underneath. And that's another wonderful story to sort of add. I, I shouldn't be saying that really about myself, should I? But, you know, it's fascinating. Also, you mentioned this story of Orpheus, the myth of Orpheus, which is so powerful again. Yes, yes. Can you just give us again a brief— Yes, well— —review of the story? Orpheus was married to Eurydice, and Eurydice died and went to the underworld, and He was a, you know, was a wonderful musician, played the harp and sang like, like, you know, his singing was divine. And he, he went to the underworld and he played the music to the god of the underworld, Hades, and, and who, who gave him the permission to take his wife out of the underworld and bring her back to life, to the world again. And, but he had to promise that he will not have a look or take a peek at her while they are ascending back into the world and onto the world. And well, you know, what happened is just before they were ready to, Orpheus couldn't resist and he had a second look. He turned and looked at his wife, Eurydice, and Eurydice was lost again. And you see, this was always a puzzle to me, you know. How was it possible that for someone who is able to regain the love of his life and bring her back into the world, How is it possible to have a, you know, to want to take a second look, right? To see her again and, you know, and then lose her again forever. And of course people don't understand what it means to lose someone and how you often hear from people who've lost someone who's dear to them and they love them dearly, only if I can see them for a second, then I can lose them again. And that's what Orpheus teaches us, that loss is so powerful that you just, you want to have a close look, even a small for a second, then you can lose them again. How many people have heard saying that who lost people who are their spouses or, you know, or friends, so that if I can only see them again only briefly and then I can lose them again. And I think, you know, people, I never quite understood it unless until I experienced loss myself and then I got it. And you got it. And how did you cope? Uh, it was, uh, it was hard. Therapy helped, my therapy, and friends, friends, having people who remembered with me and are able to serve the— and of course, you know, having, having my wife now who is able to understand and help me and and support me and make me feel, you know, loved again. It helps a lot. Yeah, because that is— when you lose somebody, especially a partner, a wife, a husband, it's so intense, that love. To lose, it becomes— it's not like, you know, divorce has its own connotations, but to lose somebody again is— is when they're so young It just leaves the scar, doesn't it? It's so deep. It's very different, but you know, but you see, you know, if you have someone who really loved you, uh, and really you connected with them very deeply, and then you carry that love, and then you will be able to give to someone else. That love doesn't die, you know. That's what love does, you know. It makes you feel that You can, you know, triumph over death and continues. It is the only thing that remains. Yeah, the power is— well, that's why there's so many songs on this. Yes, the power of love. The power of love. And then you can give it, it can be given again to someone else. Yeah, it heals you because if you felt loved and you feel love, you know, you'll be able to give it again. And you, you know that You can be generous with love. Yeah, and love has to be generous. Yes, love and creativity, absolutely the same thing. You've got to be generous. They're not greedy, and they're not— you know, you don't have to give of yourself, you know, this unrequited love is not necessarily what we're talking about, but a true reciprocal love is where I think everybody wants to head for, don't they? Yes, I mean, this level of mutuality and connection, if you find it and you feel, you know, you don't lose it. When someone— just because someone dies doesn't mean they don't exist in your life. No, and they have to be very, very deeply, and they, they very personally, and they give a different meaning to your life. And also bereavement itself. Um, years ago, I don't know what the tradition was in Greece, but people used to wear a black armband Yes, yes. I quite like that. I think we missed that because it was an outward sign of someone's internal sort of grief. Yeah. And, and we don't have that anymore. Yes, we, we have to actually come out with our grief instead of having something symbolic that people can recognize that someone is in grief and respect it and actually, you know, have, have empathy and compassion, compassion, you know, suffer together in a way. With them. And I think there were moments both in the Jewish and Greek tradition, moments throughout the year that you have to actually come together and grieve together. And I think collective grieving is very important. And that's what, you know, I think Jung's idea of the collective and how you can, you know, souls coming together and grieving together is part of that collectivity. Yeah, totally. And I do think talking about the person that you've lost is so powerful. And allowing the person who is grieving to talk. Yes, because it just enables you to make sense of the trauma of losing somebody, but also how do you accommodate that? Because it's such a— it's still a mystery, isn't it? Yes. For me, there is a wonderful book by Stollerow, is an American analyst who experienced loss, he lost his wife. He's talking about how grief can find a relational home, how you can meet, and for that you need other people who know what grief is and able to provide this home for you. And I think for me, I was lucky to have friends and to have who provided this comfort for me. And of course my wife now, who is able to know this and provide this grief and, you know, find a home for it, which was very important for me. If you don't find a home for this grief, then you feel exiled, you feel alienated, you feel that you are not part of this world, because that's what trauma and grief does. And do you think that's why people create charities or create— give to something and help others? That's a really healthy, you know, sort of healing manner to deal with the grief that you can actually— you do encounter at times. Absolutely. And, you know, I think people make themselves, you know, create environments and to provide sort of, to provide support for others who go through the same experience. And of course that makes them also find a home for their own grief. Yeah. Because, you know, grief can be very alienating, especially with people who don't know it. And they usually, there is nothing more unpleasant than the grief of someone else. You know, people feel very, very sort of peculiar when they face grief. They feel that they don't want it in their lives. But I have news for them, is, you know, the statistics are against them. If they live long enough, the statistics are against them. They can lose somebody close to them, absolutely. And we've just got to enable that. And the richness of that relationship actually transforms into something else. It doesn't have to be lost forever, and nor does it have to be lost for a new partner? No, no, no, no. And actually, you know, I, you know, because with, you know, because I learned how to love and how to grieve, I'm able to do that again. And I feel it feels very important to me. And love is what saves the day, you know, always. Yeah, the true love. And I do think we're given bad, you know, love is given sort of bad press, if you like. I think people are trying to find it in all the wrong ways, in all the wrong areas. But that's, you know, sort of such a long conversation to have there. Yes. But, um, we're coming to the end of this. Can I just ask how people can find you, Anastasios, when they want to come to you, or if they want to join one of your courses or something? How do they find you? Um, it's— they can find me in the different directories. You know, whether it's the BACP or the Counseling Directory. I have my own website. Type my name, Google my name, and find my own website. Let me just spell that out for anybody. It's A-N-A-S-T-A-S-I-O-S. That's your first name, Anastasios. Gatanidis, which is G-A-I-T-A-N-I-D-I-S. That's great. Thank you. And yes, it just means that people can talk to, you know, sort of that young men need men to talk to. Yes. And, you know, and, and I also have worked with men who need this type of guidance, and also, you know, young women. Yeah, they do. A figure, a male figure that they can trust and they feel safe with. And to be able to process whatever is happening in their lives, because there is so much violence and abuse these days in the world, to, you know, that is happening from both sexes towards each other. Absolutely. It's not just one-sided. Yes, yes. And I think, you know, the biggest mistake people can make is to think that only men are violent. But it's so important if you've had a male figure that has been disturbingly abusive to go to— I went to a male a number, a couple of male therapists myself, psychoanalysts, and it was so, it was invaluable. Yes, yes. So, you know, and also sometimes you might need a female, but very often to find a male that you can talk to, that you resonate with, that can be compassionate but also have wisdom and knowledge. Yes, I agree. It's very, very, very valuable and can guide you back home. Mm, yes, that's the— that's the— how do you get back home? Yeah, absolutely, and feel comfortable with that. So we're just finishing, and I would just like to say we will be doing more of this. I don't know when, but I'll announce that about mythology. I do think people want to know more about mythology. I do think there are a lot of films out there that, you know, are based on these mythological themes. And not to be scared to talk or look or find them. But can I just say, Anastasios, thank you so, so much. I've been looking forward to this interview for so long, and thank you so much for allowing me to interview you on Your Mind Matters. This is Dr. Maria Kempinska, and speaking to Dr. Anastasios Gatolides. Thank you. Thank you, Maria. That was a pleasure. It was a real pleasure. Thank you.