Future Classic Women Awards – Women Veterans

Hello and welcome. Hello and welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station, the program where we search for the most amazing new female artists on the classical panorama. Today we're actually having a very special episode of Future Classic Women Awards with two wonderful women: Dr. Lauren Godier-McBart, who is a Senior Research Fellow at Anglia Ruskin University, and Patricia Price, who who is an Army veteran. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning, um, Lauren and Patricia. Um, today is going to be a very special, um, uh, episode on Future Classic Women Awards. We're gonna listen to music anyway, but it's gonna be music related to, um, the military life of women. And, um, Lauren, you lead a work for the Veterans and Family Institute for the military social research on women's inequality. Tell us, at the Anglia Ruskin University, tell us a little bit about this research and how you met with Patricia. Patricia is a former female soldier and she's currently an independent advisor and assessor for the Royal Armored Corps and the Global Veterans and Families that is. Okay, sure. So, uh, yeah, so as you say, I'm, uh, I'm a senior researcher in our institute which is focused on, um, specifically on looking at the impact of service on veterans. And the research program or research stream that I run particularly looks at the experiences of women during military service and the impact of that, or that that has then on their civilian life going forward. Um, so in particular, at the moment, I'm looking at some research around women's access to support provision after service, so things like accessing mental health care and specific services for veterans and how well those services are, are tailored to women, or not, as the case may be. And I'm also involved in some research around the experiences of women during service, particularly looking at things like sexual harassment and sexual violence. Which are unfortunately quite prevalent. But, um, but Patricia and I met when, um, Patricia was doing a master's with us at the university focused on, um, focused on veteran studies. And Patricia has now been quite heavily involved in some of my research, so supporting the research that I'm doing around women's access to sport provision, both in terms of you know, using her lived experience to support the delivery design and the interpretation of findings of that. But she's now also working directly on one of the projects with me as well. Wonderful. Well, Patricia, um, I mean, so you started your undergraduate and then now your master after you finished your career as a military woman. Yes, I mean, my, my career as a, you know, part of the military was, was a few decades ago, but between then and now, um, I brought up children and, and grandchildren, and— but it never left, you know, my connection. And I don't think it ever does. Anybody that's ever served, male or female, will tell you that bond with your colleagues remains for life. And I also have had siblings and other family, so quite large family, and quite a few of us that are military or ex-military. So there was always this connection and always this interest in what happens, not just whilst you're serving because that's quite prescribed and you know exactly what happens when you're in and what you're there for, but afterwards I decided that was the kind of research thread that I wanted to pick up. So my undergrad was psychology, but I didn't want to be a therapist. And then Lauren and the team at Anglia Ruskin were running a course that was specifically directed at veterans, and so I transferred from psychology to veteran studies, and absolutely loved it and continue to love it because it all, it's all so relevant. I've sort of moved into more female studies purely because obviously I have, I have a step ahead in that because I am one. And yeah, it's, it's very important for me personally, but also for friends, former colleagues, and current you know, colleagues as well. Yeah, that the lived experience is heard from those who have lived the experience. Absolutely. Well, you know, the Women's Radio Station is a station that has been founded by a man, by the wonderful Howard, and it's— it was for support on mental health of women in any sector. And my program in particular, Future Classic Women Awards, is a program about the mental health and experience of women in the career of music. And the career of music somehow has the discipline that is not far off, I guess, from the military discipline. Is that sort of formamentis where you have to have a training that is an everyday training and have to be, you know, a total focus and clear on what you're doing. And is impacting a lot your personal life in terms of having a family and growing a family, particularly when you are soloist touring around the world, um, playing and singing opera. There is a lot around that, and I'm pretty sure this is something quite, um, impacting to be a woman in the military life, um, you know, having the opportunity to— I mean, does it happen that you get married when you are in the military service and you get pregnant and have children, or that happened after, for example? You see what I mean? Yeah, I mean, that's a That's a really interesting area, actually, and Patricia has her own experience around this, but you absolutely can get married and have a family whilst you're in service now. However, there are, as you say, similarly to, you know, to your experience in your occupation, there are a lot of barriers and challenges that are associated with that, and women are still leaving service most commonly because of having children or for family reasons. And also, quite interestingly, women who serve in the military are very commonly married to other service members, and this creates additional challenges, as you can imagine, around having a family and balancing two military careers with, you know, childcare, deployments, and things like that. So there are whilst, you know, there are no, I guess, policy-related obstacles to getting married or having a family in service anymore, there are still really significant challenges with actually managing that for women in particular. Absolutely. Well, you know, I can tell you it's the same with music. A lot of musicians are married to musicians because the life of a musician is not an everyday life that you go to the office 9 to 5 and then you have your weekend free and the evening free. You know, you're working in the evening, you are, or you're traveling for concerts. So myself as well, you know, before meeting my husband, who is not a musician, and everyone is quite surprised about that, they were, you know, I thought, you know, no one would understand my need of practicing when you go on holiday or the fact that you can't go on holiday because you have a concert or you have a tour, etc. So for you it's the same. I mean, I don't think there is Christmas, isn't it, or Easter or Mother's Day that you can take the day off if you are on duty or if you are, for example, on the front. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, Patricia. No, that's okay. I was just going to add there that you're right about it being very disciplined and that your career must come first. A military career is a 24-hour-a-day role, exactly like being a musician and committing to your profession. And so yes, things have changed now, and there absolutely is a sphere within which anybody, male or female, serving in the armed forces can consider having a career and having a family. When I served, it wasn't like that, and in fact that was the reason that my career ended. And there was no choice in that at the time, it was just you know, the policy— that was what the policy was at the time. So yeah, there were several obstacles and challenges, but it was as it was. No, no, no, please finish. I was just going to finish by saying that, you know, when it comes to making those choices and all of the checks and balances you go through before you come to your decision, that's changed over the last few decades. And women are in a position where they can consider one or the other or both. But it was very different, and I guess that's the similarity there, the thread of similarity between a musical career and a military career. Now, you know, about that, you know, of course, particularly now with the war, you can see the role of a military person is not the role of a musician, the career, of course, in these very moment, the importance of a musician compared to the importance of a military, uh, person. It's, um, it's, uh, not balanced. You see what I mean? There are similarities in the dedication, in the mission, in a way. Um, my mission, for example, personally, was to share the beauty of music and harmony and get people together through music and bring peace through music as well. And, um, your, your ambition, probably you should say that why you decided to become a military, but I'm pretty sure the majority must be something again about, uh, peace and keeping the, um, the harmony among everyone and not allowing, you know, what, what's happening right now, for example, and defending who cannot be defended. Um, so there is something though that I think it could be similar, and is the fact that, for example, musicians majority comes from a musical family. So somehow it's in the family, and the family knows that type of career and push you into that one, together with the talent, of course. Did you have the same experience? Because you mentioned that you, you have siblings and family that are in the military. Yes, at the time. I think it's a very common reason, exactly as you say, why people would that, you know, choose to join the Armed Forces. I had 4 older brothers at the time, 2 cousins at the time, so there were 6 people ahead of me, all related, that were my original reason for thinking this could be a career option for me. And that was even before I was old enough to, to take up that— up as a, you know, have a military career. And I wasn't at all bothered by the discipline, because, you know, our household was quite disciplined anyway. And once you've grown up sort of witnessing that, it didn't hold any— you know, I wasn't daunted by it. It didn't hold— there was no trepidation. I knew what it was once I wanted, once I'd made the decision. And I think that that's also been part of the trigger for the research, you know, coming all through the decision-making process going, having the career. And, and yes, it ended before I would have naturally wanted it to, but I, I was in a position where I made a choice. Yeah. And there is discipline in choice and decision-making that, that follows through into capturing the lived experience of, you know, in our case, you know, female veterans, female, females in the military. And in your case, for females in a musical career. And I think it's important for the reasons for joining, although now there may be a sphere within which war, in inverted commas, is a much more common word, it's talked about more. I think we've come through a few decades where it wasn't something that would be your reason for joining, And I think there are women now who have, you know, the word and the construct and the concept of war and going to war for females is more solidified in our communities. And so girls, women don't see it as primarily, you know, what my career involves in the military. They see themselves as 21st century professional soldiers and and they can have a career, they can have both a family and a career, which is quite different to when I joined. So yeah, I think it's important that there are military musicians as well. Yeah, that's very true. And they do, you know, have both of those conflicting things, so the career as a musician and the career as a soldier. And being a female and potentially wanting a family, you know, all of those things come into play, and it's important that through research we capture those things. Well, why don't we then listen to the march, the WRAC. What does it mean, WRAC? Do you know? It's the Women's Royal Army Corps. Ah, there you go. Which is what I would have joined and which no longer exists. Yeah. All right, so performed by the staff band of the The Netherlands Royal Army Corps. Fantastic. And this was the Women's Royal— the band, the staff band of the Women's Royal Army Corps march. Um, so Patricia, actually, um, I wanted to ask you, how important was music in your military life, you know. Um, there is, uh, music has always been entangled with the triumphant march, with, of course, the song for the fallen. And, um, you know, and, um, it's something that, you know, my father, for example— and that's very funny, talking about the musicians, uh, military professional people— my, my father, when he had to do the military service is when he was young, and we're talking about the '70s, um, he was supposed to— that's— he was sent— they had the selection of the best musicians and they were sent. So my dad got sent to the military academy, Modena, is like the West Point in Italy, um, because he was gonna then perform at the concerts and the military bands, etc. So he, he had to learn all the skills when you're in the military service, but his main duty was to practice and perform for the various celebrations. So how was music in your everyday life in, in the military service? Gosh, I'm not sure I can pinpoint the importance of music to everybody serving, male, female, because because it plays such a crucial role when you are training and preparing for training and going through training. Music is a common thread throughout that, so whether you're listening to music whilst you're getting your kit ready, or if you are, you know, practicing your fitness, that you would have earphones in and music would be playing. Even the privilege of listening to the staff band practicing was something that everybody was excited about. And of course, it's entirely appropriate that it's emotive because exactly as you say, you know, you are celebrating with music, or you are, you know, remembering or recalling, you know, perhaps those that have fallen, or if you're marching to music, it just elevates. Everything. It was hugely important. And also, when, you know, when there was activity, military activity, music was a way just to step back a little bit. The importance of being able to slightly detach into something very— as comforting as music, its familiarity, its comfort, its memories, You know, it's hugely important for mental health and well-being. Music plays a huge part, whether you're civilian, but particularly in the military. It's a great source of comfort. Yeah, absolutely critical. I think as well, it's part of— it forms part of the traditions that make the military. And that's such a huge part of the military, are its, you know, its historic traditions and conforming to those. And I think music plays quite a big part in that. Absolutely. Well, you know, I was, um, I was thinking about the role of music during the pandemic. And, um, the military, you know, is not just used in war, is used also in, uh, peace mission, is used in so many— when we had the storms, you know, in helping, or the disasters, you send in the military as well. There is so many roles and that the military is doing today. So, um, the music as well, it's, uh, it's something that is accompanying so many different aspects of life and, uh, and jobs in general. So yeah, so I wanted to ask you, um, Lauren, how, how did you decide to, to enter into this specific field of research? How did that happen? It wasn't a straightforward decision, I would say. So my, my background, similarly to Patricia, started off in psychology more broadly, and then I did my doctoral research focused on psychiatry, particularly eating disorders. So my interest, I guess, in kind of women's mental health started there. As you know, eating disorders are much more prevalent in women. And then I joined the, the Veterans and Families Institute straight from my doctoral research, um, more by, um, more by chance than choice, I would say, as it's, it's based where, where I'm from in, in Chelmsford in Essex. Um, but I, I began to, to realize just the lack of research and lack of focus on women in the military context as, um, as I went, you know, up on doing research within the veteran field. And I'd say probably about 4 years ago, I began to kind of look into this and realize that, that women just didn't— hadn't really historically had a voice in this country in, in regards to research, but also just generally in terms of, as I said, things like support provision being considered in terms of their needs, what their needs and how they might differ from male veterans. And it's been suggested, and I think quite a good way of summarizing it, really, that women feel kind of hypervisible in service. So they feel that their differences as a minority within military service are hypervisible and then invisible after service because of the kind of lack of, lack of recognition that women have served or the contribution that they have actually made within their military service. And so I think since And, you know, since realizing that there was this massive gap in knowledge, I've kind of been chipping away at trying to do research in this area. And in the last few years, we've seen quite a welcome increase in focus in this area, and we've been able to get funding and start focusing on elevating women's voices, really, and considering what their needs might be. And don't you think it's quite astonishing where in the 2022. So we're very far off, and the women have been in the military service for a long time. If you think, even the Queen was in the Second World War, you know, uh, serving. So she's a veteran, if you like. And, uh, and, you know, and how is that possible that in so many years only now we are talking about this? And you're talking about the UK. What about the rest of the world? I don't think there is much more research in the rest of the world either. Yeah, I mean, it's a similar state of affairs in most countries. The United States have a lot more focus, a lot more research. They have a lot more money for research because, you know, they've got their established Veterans Affairs, Veterans Health Administration focused kind of government departments that have been there for a number of years, and we haven't had that until recently. But there was, there was a paper that was published a couple of years ago that found that only 2% of veteran research internationally mentioned women at that time in 2019, and even less than that actually focused on women. So you can see that there's just been such a significant lack of focus on women until now. And as I say, we are seeing an increase now, but as you rightly say, it's 2022, and that's incredible really that we're, we're only at that point now. I think just to add to what Lauren said, I think it's recognition of the contribution that's lacking. You know, there's no reason why a soldier isn't a soldier, whether they're male or female. However, it's not about assimilating to the dominant culture and just becoming invisible, you know, you are one of the boys in inverted commas. But it's also accepting and acknowledging differences. And, you know, you don't— it's not all about equality, it's also about equity. And it's important that those differences are not hidden, you know, they're not covered and ignored. So I think it is important, you know, the research is hugely valuable because the type of research that Lauren doesn't— I'm privileged to be involved in— comes directly from those women. That's the bit that was meant to— the link that was missing. And it is a global trend. There is a global theme of, you know, a lack of those lived experiences and those voices coming through to direct what comes next, and also to set the appropriate context for the next veterans that come from the armed forces, females particularly. Um, I think males will benefit from female veteran research as well, um, and females more so, hopefully. Well, absolutely. There is, um, you know, there is something more specific that I think needs to be considered as well, is the fact that, um, when you think about veterans, you don't think about women. You normally have the picture of a man, isn't it? Um, so when, when you talk to people, Patricia, uh, does it come out that you are a veteran, and do they look at you surprised, or— Very interesting that you asked me that. The reason I say so is, um, my experiences and coming from the military to bring up a family You can't— you— I can't speak for every female veteran, obviously, but in my experience, it was, right, I'm not that anymore, I must switch to being this. So being a mother and my duty as a mother and wife were what took precedence. So I didn't mention to anybody my military background. And through doing the undergrad and the master's and the research and connection with Lauren and the Institute the university. That's a question I've been asking myself. How— why haven't I? I'm very proud that I'm a veteran. I'm very proud to have served my Queen and country and to have worn the uniform. What stops me? And it's a question that hasn't got a short or a quick answer, because identifying as a veteran is a source of pride, but how that is perceived by anybody I identify as a veteran to is what determines whether I tell them or not. I suppose there's this perception that the listener— I have no idea of measuring what they consider to be a veteran. And exactly as you said at the beginning of your question, when you think of a veteran, you think of a male, you think of somebody perhaps older. I don't want to be offensive to anybody. Yeah, but you think of an older male that has a particular look, a particular picture in mind, and I don't fit that. Yeah, I mean, sorry, I was just going to add to that to say that Patricia's experience is quite common when you speak to women veterans, and women are shown in, you know, to be less likely to identify with the veteran label than their male colleagues for the reasons that Patricia's just outlined. There's this public perception of veterans as an older male who, you know, served in World War II, or alternatively, you know, men that have seen combat, because there's a lot of media— or there was a lot of media interest around that in terms of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts. And also women talk about being mistaken at you know, commemorative events, remembrance for female relatives rather than veterans. So, you know, it being assumed that they are a widow that's wearing their husband's medals, or that they're the daughter of a, you know, that their granddad served. So there does seem to be this, as I said earlier, this invisibility of women within the veteran community that seems to be impacting on their identity as veterans. But interestingly, women that, that Patricia and I have spoken to within our research have also talked about not being able to identify as a civilian fully either, because of the, um, because of the, the culture of the military and how, how much that, that kind of discipline, that ethic, that, that being within that changes you, makes you feel different. So they're not, they're not identifying as a civilian either. So sitting in this kind of limbo between them really, which seems to be a fairly common feeling amongst women that we've spoken to. Well, I have to tell you a story. I had a friend, musician, and she was blonde and beautiful. She looked like, you know, an actress from La Dolce Vita, and she had all the men falling at feet. Really, it was incredible, this woman. And, and she was the proper, um, stereotype of the blonde, beautiful, stunning musician as well, talented. She had it all. Um, and then once I was in a big, uh, moment in my life and I was very sad and I was really crying, and this girlfriend, she told me, you know what, let's just go shopping for shoes. And I thought that was the most stupid thing she could ever say, you know. I thought, you know, this is a very dramatic moment for me. I'm very seriously, deeply, you know, concerned and sad and everything. And she's like, let's go shop for shoes. So we went out for shopping for shoes and we had a coffee in Oxford Street. And, um, and I thought, you know what, actually she's right, because my life is so serious. It's so— that sometimes you need that. And it wasn't stupid at all. It was that type of, you know, being completely off and light in the sky. And that was what I needed that very moment. So I guess coming out of the military, I don't think you have that many moments like this in your everyday life, isn't it? And then meeting with people like my wonderful friend that maybe tells you, let's go shopping for shoes. And you think, you know, having that type of mindset that, that's, that's not appropriate or whatever. Um, did you manage to adjust to that and then go shopping for shoes, for example, and go and just have a coffee? Well, I think that's two very different subjects because I can't wear shoes. I have no problem. But leaving the military, there is a serious point to answering your question there. And the thing is, once you assume your military identity and everything around you confirms that identity, and then you are thrust into the civilian world and that identity is forcibly removed, it's like having a coat that is comfortable, it's warm, it's protective, you know, you're in a military family, it's not just just joining an organization, it is a family. And to forcibly remove that, and you, you've already removed your coat as a civilian to become part of a military family, so you've detached from your former civilian self to become your current military self, and then you are thrust back into the civilian world where your identity is completely different to the civilian that joined. So they're exactly as Lauren explained, there is this sort of identity gap where it's, it's, it's not possible for a time to identify as, as anything and anyone. But whilst you're, whilst you have this place where you're, it's not quite, uh, it's not an easy process to assimilate your new identity, um, It's then about taking the time and the process, and that's when, you know, a lot of females, especially friends that I know, say that they really struggled with their mental health because identity is important to everybody. Yeah, you don't have the— you're under health surveillance from the minute you're born, and there's a huge pile of data linked to your clinical well-being, your mental health, your physical well-being, everything to do with you as an individual. Which kind of drops into the ether when you are in the Armed Forces. Then when you come out, it doesn't naturally follow you, so you don't even, you know, pick up all of the different parts that made you a civilian before you join, aren't present when you try to pick up your civilian self and identity for yourself when you leave the Armed Forces. So yeah, there is this assimilation process It's not just identity, it's cultural. You don't even quite identify as a civilian female because the females that are civilians around you don't seem the same. They don't think the way you do, they don't behave the way that you do, they don't conduct themselves in exactly the way that you do. And that's because you, you're kind of going between two things. So you are now a veteran, also a civilian. You're a veteran civilian. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can very happily shoe shop for days on end, and do, if you could see my collection. But we can go together and have coffee. But in order to just— I struggle to just leave And to then pick up on going back to going for coffee with friends that were civilians, you know, when they wanted to talk to me about civilian things, it was a strange concept. It was difficult to contextualize with this new identity, which, you know, you need to let go of to become your new person, your new self. All right, well, I'd like to listen to now to a piece that is quite relevant with what is happening now in Ukraine. And this is a Ukrainian composer called Mikhail Skoryk, and it's a piece called Melody, and this become a sort of national hymn. It's one of the pieces that is performed all the time when you want to represent the Ukrainian music, and in this case is performed by the Kyiv Classic Orchestra. That is the orchestra that we saw defying the bombing and the shelling in Kyiv, performing in the square, in the Freedom Square in Kyiv. So let's listen to, uh, Skoryk melody. And this was the Kyiv Classical Orchestra performing, um, Skoryk melody. Um, so we saw the Kyiv Classical Orchestra— I remember it was on all the news the very first days of the war in Ukraine, performing in Kyiv, showing that they were defying what was happening in that moment. And I'm personally connected— we had before other episodes of Future Classical Women Awards where I interviewed my students from the London Performing Academy of Music in Ukraine, stuck there trying to come here. We're doing a big work to rescue them and to make them to continue their studies here. But what is worse is that I listened to this piece when I was in Kiev in October for a festival when we, you know, because I'm partnered with the Kiev Conservatory and the Kharkiv University. And the professors performing this piece, they are now in the front working. Uh, you know, for the war. Um, they had to swap their instruments to get the, the arms and go and fight alongside men and women together. And, um, this is something that doesn't belong in the frame of mind to a civilian, you know, to take a gun and shoot another human being in the face. And in that case, I don't— I'm sure the survival instinct will kick in. But it's something that can, um, destroy mentally anyone. So to you, Patricia, as a veteran, what was your feeling when the war started? What was your feeling? What would be your comment and advice, of course, thinking about these people having to, to, to take their arms, trying to defend themselves? And even worse, you know, there is also so many veterans that we heard that they enlisted in this special army to go and help the Ukrainians, who of course are not, you know, they're fighting against a giant that is the Russian army. What were your thoughts? It's very— it's so moving. That piece of music, by the way, was just so evocative and so moving. And I think it has a strong connection with how I feel because, you know, first of all, to be a civilian in those circumstances and in that environment must just be harrowing. My heart goes out to every single, you know, person, every single citizen, every Ukrainian everywhere. As somebody with a military background, you know, I would have gone through training to be able to look at a conflict situation very differently to the perspective or the outlook that a civilian would have, you know, doing their patriotic duty and being called as a musician or as a mother, a brother, a sister, you know, just to be a civilian being called and feeling like it was my duty to to answer that calling will be a very different thinking and thought process and, you know, conscious decision-making process to go through than, than for somebody who has any military in their background. Because when you're in that environment and you're being trained, it becomes second nature. It becomes— it almost is innate to remember your training and to— and the reasons why You went through your own conscious decision-making process to join the military. So for civilians to take up arms and to, you know, be in a defensive position, I just think there will be an, you know, a wave of mental health challenges ahead. Particularly for those that survive, go back to their families, and try to go back to some way of life, because life will never be the same. Yeah, yeah, go on. Sorry, I was just going to highlight as well, actually, you know, pulling it back to the, the female serving, um, angle here. There's— I, I've been looking actually quite a lot at, you know, Ukrainian women in the military recently with everything that's, that's going on. And a lot of Ukrainian women, um, stood up who were, you know, civilians in normal jobs, stood up and volunteered back in, uh, 2014 when, when Russia annexed Crimea, and many served on the front line, often unrecognized as well, or not officially enlisted because of the laws that were still in place at that time around women serving on the front line. And there's a really, really interesting documentary, if you get a chance to look at it, called The Invisible Battalion. Um, it follows, I think, 5 Ukrainian women who volunteered at that time. Um, and, you know, as I said, a number of which were then not officially recognized for their roles. There was a particular woman who served, um, I think 2014, 2015, until she was 5 months pregnant on the front line. Oh my God. And was then subsequently— I mean, she was given a medal for what she did, but subsequently was recorded as being the head of sewing and fixing for the military. Because of the laws that were around women officially serving in those positions. And it also shows, as Patricia highlighted, the then impact of that on some of those women, really, really, really poor experiences of returning back to their civilian jobs and trying to then— and their civilian roles. Yeah, returning to their civilian role mother, sister, wife, exactly, auntie, cousin, all of those things. It's very difficult to respond to a call to arm, which is, you know, a very deep calling. You're talking a situation that most can only imagine, being in a situation where it is life or death. Yeah. And then you get to a point and it's all policy-driven. And whilst you are handshaked, you know, they get the handshake and you get the medal, you literally then just go back to what you were doing before. Now there's massive impact in there on many different platforms, you know, on how that will affect that individual, but it's often forgotten that it's not just the individual once you've sent that person back to an environment that is completely different because they will see it through a very— through very different lens and ask them to behave as they did before, the impact of that on their families and their communities is where you don't often get— and this just, you know, sort of solidifies the value of Lauren's research— is that you don't get what that experience is like from that person, that they don't really have much of an identity. You call for veterans in research, And you get low numbers because you have to define what a veteran is first. If it just means you've served, well, that's, you know, there's probably millions. I mean, there are globally millions. But to further define that and have it apply to a female who has once held arms and is now holding a baby, it's very difficult to ask that person to, you know, assimilate this identity of veteran and then come forward and give us your lived experience. So there are quite a few challenges and imbalances in there that hopefully, you know, from a research perspective, will be able to support improvement too. You know, I think maybe it's because I'm a musician, I'm particularly sensitive I'm too sensitive, to be honest. I cry all the time. Um, since, uh, you know, I cry when I'm happy, I cry when I'm sad. I'm always crying. It's pretty bad. And particularly, you know, I was talking with my students and I got to see them for the first time, and I just couldn't keep my, my, my tears. And it's awful because you want to support them and show them that you're strong. And, um, and there is something you just said, you know, the fact of holding a baby. I remember when I had my baby, um, the feeling of the miracle, you know, of giving birth, of giving life, of creating life. It's incredible. And thinking about taking away life from a mother perspective, how do you do that? You see what I mean? This is, um, and, and I have to say and give all the honors to my female professors who have been helping me so much in keeping contact with the students and bringing them over. Um, I feel, you know, the strength of women, um, having this power of, um, fathers as well, you know. I don't, I don't think any war would have ever started by a woman. Somehow I have this kind of, of idea in my mind that women that give life, they would never think about, you know, going and destroying the life of so many others, women, the mother and children. I don't know. I think, I think there is definitely this sort of level of emotion attached to everything that we're talking about that needs acknowledgement. Yeah. And exactly, you know, the picture of a mother holding a baby, and that person, that lady, that individual having once held a weapon where her baby then is, is a striking image. And it's not without justification that we respond emotionally to that. And I think if we can capture that and be able to record those experiences, we have an opportunity to improve things for all women coming behind those ladies, behind those soldiers, behind those mothers. I can't stress enough, you know, I know that we're talking in terms of music and we're sort of trying to find similarities, differences, and acknowledge all of them. I sang professionally at one point in my life and I sort of dove into that and was obsessed with it and it was a source of calm and comfort for me. And I can't imagine the transition of that Ukrainian female soldier coming back to her civilian world. You know, I don't know what music would soothe what she must have gone through. I don't know what music I would suggest that would soothe any of what she's going through or going to go through. But I would suggest, you know, that in the form of research with females, we're never going to get a final picture, but we have to try. Well, I think your work is so important, and I'm very grateful to you for what you're doing, because This is such an important job, and I'm sure similar, um, and I hope you, you don't get offended if I say that, but it's very similar to other very, you know, demanding jobs like policewomen or women in the NHS working, you know, to saving life. So it's, um, it's something that, um, on the female point of view, it's true that, you know, we're talking so much about equality and being the same, but it's also true that we are different and we have also different way of responding to, um, the body is different, um, you know. Yeah, that is absolutely true. I think it's also worth saying as well that within, you know, women aren't all the same as well. We're all very different to each other, and I think there is a tendency, and it's it's probably because we haven't, you know, there hasn't been that focus on women. So there, and there is now, which is great, but there is a tendency to lump with all of, you know, all women veterans into one category and say, what, what is that experience? So I think the next step is for us to start looking at what, you know, different groups within that experience, um, what different experiences are through, you know, different subgroups as well. You know, looking at taking a kind of intersectional approach um, at looking at that, because you've also got other kind of minority communities within the military and veteran spheres that have also not had a voice or much research. So, um, you know, the LGBT community, um, the BAME community as well. There's just so many different kind of— and you obviously, you don't want to start, you know, cutting people up and putting labels on them, but these experiences are going to be very different. Yeah, absolutely. There is definitely a cultural lens that needs applying as well. You know, it's the BAME community, LGBTQ, EDI, all of those things. And it's not just about equality, there has to be some measure of equity in there as well. You know, the research about women's chances and women's access to service, not just mental health services but all services, and accessing support and where that comes from. You know, why they do and why they don't is important. We have, we have, you know, generations of females becoming, you know, moving from serving to civilian And we, we haven't yet identified how best to support them. Equity is important because that means you have the same chances. It's not that you get the same things, it's that you have the same chances. You're on the platform, isn't level, the platform is adjustable, it's flexible. Equity isn't about let's all have the same thing, yeah, everybody get the the same everything. It's about acknowledging those differences and making the system and the process and policies flexible enough to adjust to accommodate everybody, female particularly. Absolutely right, absolutely right. Now, last question, Patricia. You said you have children and grandchildren, and does any one of them is in the military service or is planning to go to, wishing to? Follow Grandma. It's funny because my son did at one point have aspirations for military service, but, but chose a different direction. And oddly, even the siblings that served and family as well, none of our children or grandchildren are serving or have served. Okay, I don't know what that says, but they all know about all, you know, our military backgrounds and service and history and everything, but none of them have chosen that as a career option. Well, I see my daughter and now the similarity with music, and she loves the piano, but she doesn't want to learn it because she knows it's too much work. She would have the talent But you know, and everyone is asking, so do you play? And so she goes and she's so show-off with a simple song that she learned just to show off. But then she knows it's a life of dedication, and, and I think you need to be born somehow to do, um, that type of career. What do you think? Um, I don't know. I certainly didn't think I was born to it. It was the pride, it was the whole effect, the influence of my siblings' service on our home life. So when they came home on leave, seeing how proud my parents were was part of the trigger. And seeing their response to how proud my parents were was part of the trigger. And so over those years when I was you know, going from being a child to a young adult, watching and witnessing that. And then I wanted to learn, so they had me pulling boots and ironing uniforms, basically treating me like a servant. But it formed part of what's necessary, you know, the discipline that you need to be able to be a soldier. So no, none of my children decided— I think it's part of exactly what you said, they watch the hard work and the discipline. Oh yeah. Not now, not for me. Not thank you. I'm gonna buy shoes. All right, well, a big thanks to you, to Patricia Price and Lauren Goddard-McBath, for this amazing conversation today and for the beautiful music that we had a chance to play today. You've been listening to Future Classic Women Awards on Women's Radio Station, live every day at 10 AM and 10 PM London time. And if you have any questions that you would like to ask to our guest or nomination for our Future Classic Women Awards, please email presenters@womensradiostation.com or tweet us @WomensRadioSTN. And if you would like to listen to it again or catch up on our previous programs, you can add to my presenters page Stefania Passamonte, Future Classic Women Awards on Women's Radio Station. We're gonna conclude our interview by listening to a very special piece is The Great Gate of Kyiv, from the picture of an exhibition by the Russian composer Mussorgsky and performed by the Ukrainian National Symphony Orchestra.