Hello and welcome to this week's edition of Free Your Mind. Let's talk about it with LKJ. As the listeners have been on a course with us throughout domestic violence, sexual abuse, etc., all these different areas that, you know, affects people with mental health. And I have had the pleasure of having some wonderful guests on professional people offering their voice for your ear to listen to, and vice versa, so that you can gain some knowledge. Or if there's anything you need to, um, specifically, um, an area that is affecting you, always remember, um, that you need to reach out and to speak at Women's Radio Station is there to support, as is my show, when we bring guests on to free their mind, talk about it so that you, the listener, can engage in these wonderful shows that run. And my guest this week is Rona McLaughlin. I hope I've said that correctly. Rona is a fully qualified, accredited cognitive behavioral therapist. She works across all age groups, and she has particular expertise with and experience of working with young people in a secure setting who have experienced a range of difficulties. She has addressed issues such as post-traumatic stress disorder, complex trauma, self-harm, psychosis, anxiety, low self-esteem, and depression, as well as many more subjects that mental health affects. And Rona has been herself working in private practice since 2013. So on that note, I'm going to bring our wonderful guest in for this hour's show. Hi, Rona, are you there? I am here. Hello. Hello and welcome to Free Your Mind. Let's talk about it. With LKJ. It's a pleasure for you to bring your expertise onto my show so that people can understand, you know, the subjects that we're talking about, and the people that don't like to talk about it or are hiding for some reason. So let's just start as I do with all my guests, so we can explain who you are to the listeners, you know, where you come from, your background, etc., and so we can get our listeners comfortable, ready as you start freeing your mind of your work and how, you know, even your, you know, by coming on this show, you can help the people there. Okey-dokey. Go ahead, it's all yours, Rona. Okay, thanks. So yeah, I'm Rona McLaughlin. I am based in Scotland, the west of Scotland. I have been working in private practice, as you said, since 2013, but prior to that, prior to my clinical training, I also I've got loads of years of experience working. I work in a secure unit for adolescents as well, both male and female, and have done that for 15 years now. So yeah, loads of different experience. I do, I do a lot of training, I do a bit of lecturing, and I just like to move about the place and do lots of different things. But my main kind of core profession is psychotherapy, cognitive behavioral therapy. Wonderful. So when we look at that, Rona, and we're going to break it down, so I'm just getting a little What am I up to today? It's, you know, February, you know, I'm not searching for Valentine's gifts because Mona's show is obviously being broadcast now on the 13th of February and it's Valentine's Day tomorrow. You never know, my next segment's up after this is dating, so who knows? Perhaps I'll be searching on that. But no, on the serious note, um, You know, we're saying you've been working, um, in a secure unit. Let's just start on that. What is the age of the average person in that unit is my first question, and my second question is why are they in the secure unit? So the kind of average age is usually 14, 15, around about then, but what we can take is anybody from 12 up to 18, just the day before their 18th birthday. And we do have another facility within it that goes a wee bit later than that, but that's, that's like a step down from secure. So we get adolescents from throughout Scotland and England and sometimes Ireland as well, because their facilities, the English and Irish facilities, aren't quite as— I suppose they aren't, but they don't have the same facilities as us. I'll just keep it, I'll keep it at that. So So we get kids from all over the UK and Ireland, as I said. It can be for a number of things. So people come in through welfare, you know, perhaps neglect, abuse, you know, early childhood difficulties with their parents, etc., and has led them to put themselves at risk, which that in itself, that phrase kind of sticks in my throat a wee bit because I suppose you don't really know when you're 12 that you're putting yourself at risk. But, so we get that, we get those kind of referrals, but we also get people through the criminal justice system as well. So obviously Obviously somebody that's committed a crime and they've come to us for a period of time for a sentence or to get sentenced. But all the young people are mixed in together. So are they in like a dormitory sort of thing or is it like a prison? No, it's very much not like a prison. Actually, some of our kids like to call it the holiday camp for a bit of a laugh. It's definitely not what we try to do is what you'd imagine like a residential home setting to be like, you know, they each have their own bedrooms which they personalise themselves, they get to decorate and they choose what goes into those rooms. They have like a really big living area, there's only 6, maximum 6 young people in each house as well, so these houses are, they're pretty big. There's 3 houses in the centre but they're pretty big houses and a maximum of 6, so they've got like a dining room, They've got sensory rooms, they've got activity rooms, they've got the big living room area, as I said. They've also got courtyards, they have a massive football pitch, they've got a big games hall, a gym. There's loads of facilities, and they've got a full education department as well, which includes a working salon and a working tech room where they make things, they build things. There's so many different activities going, but there's, yeah, as I said, there's 3 different secure units, 6 young people in each unit, so they're not all in the same room together. The thing, although I'm making it sound really lovely, the key part is that their doors are locked. So their bedroom doors are locked, the corridor doors are locked, and the external doors are locked as well. So that is, you know, for them to be aware that this is your unit, yeah, you know, but the boundaries are you cannot go outside of those doors, and that's there for your safety. And because, you know, like I say, some of our criminals, you know, have embarked on the criminal edge of their journey of life, to some that have come in, like you said, under welfare care, neglect, at risk, you know. Because when I was speaking to Anne McKechnie— yeah, I hope you know my tone, and it's my apologies if it's not coming out correctly, but I'm trying my best on that bit— but as she was saying, a child of 3 does not know it's going to become a criminal at the age of 12. Do you find in— when we're looking at children specifically here, yeah, um, at the age of 12, that person that has come in, um, because one of the questions, you know, just to get back, they asked Anne was, you know, at what age does a child start coming on? She said it's very rare for a child to commit a crime. So when you get these people— I mean, obviously I'm media, so I cover these stories, etc., that go into that, um, when, you know, and people see these children, um, and they're protected by law because they've got protective characteristics, etc., that define them to go on there till working through this. And then at 18, if they were given a sentence by the judge, like if somebody had murdered someone, which we have seen some children that have committed such an act as murder and they're put in, you know, these care facilities where a lot of people think, do they go into young adults? But they're not, they're children, so they've still got their brain to nurture and to work with them to rehabilitate and to get them back into society. To go back on to a path that they know it wasn't their fault that this happened. So, like, for the people, do you find, Rona, um, that a child that has committed murder at the age, say, of 12, um, that they are in this secure unit, your job then is to find out why? Mhm. Yeah, I, I think I mean, as you said, nobody ever just ends up at 12 having murdered somebody. There's always a path or a route to that, and generally, before you've even met the young person that comes in, you do have a bit of a history, a background, where you can see the pattern, you can see the path that's led them there. And my job within the secure unit, given that it's a therapy role, is very much a non-judgmental role. So whenever somebody presents to me for therapy, whether it be whatever crime they've committed, you know, that's, that's not what I'm there to talk to them about. It's about helping them to rehabilitate and help help them to, I suppose, understand their path and why they got there. There's other things in place within the secure unit that, you know, if they're there through a sentence, those are the things that are there to determine their, I suppose, their punishment or what they should do to make that better to society. My job is very much about, I suppose, healing and helping them to build a life for themselves when they leave, that, you know, okay, that's happened when they're 12, which you know, nobody's happy about, but that doesn't have to determine the rest of their life as well as everybody else round about them as well. So it's very, very much for me, it's about rehabilitation and supporting them to not do the same thing when they leave again and helping them see a different way of life, I suppose. Yes, it is, as you were saying, seeing a different road, a different path, and to understand certain factors that perhaps it wasn't their fault. Yes, it was their fault when they committed the crime, but what led them to do that? Were they reaching out? Because it's not— when I was speaking to Rhys Rosser, who is a criminal barrister, and his view was that sometimes it's not until they get into the criminal justice system that you can actually see what is wrong with them. They didn't know what was wrong with them till that happened. And they might have been playing tough or really giving a, you know, uh, somebody in their family, they were being abused, they were being battered themselves. This is the way somebody had done that to them at the age of 12. That's how it was. And something went wrong or something that, um, where they fell and perhaps broke, you know, cracked their head. I don't know, I'm not, I'm not, uh, How do you put it? Um, not trying to narrative it down to a certain crime or a certain person. I think it's unfair. There's not enough children. Um, that's a wrong word. It's not enough. What I'm trying to express is there isn't that many murdering children in your unit, so it'd be very easy for a listener to try and home in on— was that that specific child that they read about in the media? And we have to be very careful that we don't do that. We're doing an overall, um, hours chat on what's going on there. What I'm trying to do is to see at that child of age 12— let's look at the child age 12 that enters at that first stage when you can take them in, um, that are, you know, over in the care system where, um, they are now, uh, you know, ward of the court, as we put it. There's been neglect and they are at risk. They're at risk of themselves becoming hurt. When you see a child like that, or your neighbor for instance— let me broaden that out to the listener— you're, you're, you're somebody who lives next to somebody The mother's taking drugs, she's got her own mental health issues, and the child is left at home. The child is there all day and she's out, she's out selling her drugs, she's out doing what she wants to do. That child has to fend itself. She'll come back with a bag of McDonald's, throw it in the door for them, say, 'I'll be back in half an hour.' Oh, then, but, and then she does come back., and then she's got people coming round to them in the evening, you know, having a smoke, whatever they do. Um, I've not taken drugs, so it's very difficult. I understand, you know, there are different sections and classes for it, but I'm just trying to picture this child then. The mother's come home, it's spending for itself, it's trying to look after a dog if they've got a pet, trying to do whatever. Hide in their room trying to cover it from their friends that they do, or they can hear this cry of laughter with their mother and stuff, going on to the early hours of the morning to try and get to school, trying, you know, the clothes are unironed that they put on, you know, that they're going to school, their whole dress and manner. So the neighbour, the school teacher, can start seeing this child is at risk, so they contact social services. But some People, you know, with— who have mental health issues have a very good way of masking it. So when these professionals come round to say— they can't come round and be judgmental. Everybody's house has got to be like Hyacinth Bouquet's. At the same time, you've got to be very careful when you work in this field how you address it, not to cause anger, because it could, you know, lead on to other issues. But for the child that's there looking like that, do you think this is when, um, things start to go wrong? Um, I think that that child would then be looking at his behavior itself because just going into adolescence as well, um, starting to wonder what's going on, looking. And as Anne said, she hates the word attention, so I must and that's something I'm very careful of now when she gave her explanation of that, is starting to reach out to peers to look for this tribal thing where they fit, where they feel loved. Do you find that's what happens with the 12-year-old? Yeah, and I suppose, you know, I work with Anne pretty closely and we do a lot of training together and What we tend to say, I'm sure she already said this on your show, was attention needing as opposed to attention seeking, which is the language that's used. I suppose there's a couple of parts for it for me. An adolescent, 12 upwards, going into adolescence, you inevitably, any of us, compare ourselves to our peers. We compare ourselves to people round about, and a lot of that is how you learn how to, how you want to be in society. But if you're comparing yourself to your peers and coming off vastly different, i.e., as you said, you know, your mum's not present or she's a drug user or has her own mental health issues, possibly what led her to the drug use, you know, your whole situation is completely different and therefore your, I suppose, processing, your ability to kind of regulate and process and see things round about you in a way that perhaps myself, who hasn't been through that, would be able to tolerate, they're unable to tolerate some of that and it's no wonder some of these kids are really, really angry. And what we see is the surface behaviour stuff initially. We see the anger, and that's, that's the difficult part because it's hard for people, you know, teachers, teachers and professionals, but also, you know, as you said, your neighbour. It's hard to see a young person just being angry and belligerent and displaying certain behaviours and not think badly of them. So a lot of the time they're written off prior to even being given the opportunity to explore why. They're in the situation that they're in. And professionals do miss it, you know, professionals do miss things. And as you say, you can go around to a house, a social worker, teacher, whoever, and see it, see what's presented to you. You're not always seeing the full picture. And in that moment in time, that child's continuing to get lost in that whilst building up this, I suppose, social group that fits with them. And as you say, that kind of tribal element, that social group that fits with them is other young kids that are angry. And other young kids have a lot of rage to get out and don't really know how to process that and haven't been taught how to process that, because that's the kind of stuff that starts in the home when you're really young. You know, that's your basic attachment stuff, and a lot of that is missing. So we're expecting kids who are 12 and upwards to present in a certain way, and when they don't, we're in a state of shock. But actually, they've never been taught, and it's like you and I, if you're not taught something, you don't know how to do it. And I suppose that's, that's kind of what, what I see when I, when I'm dealing with these young people. That's what I see. I see their, their lack of emotional intelligence because they haven't been taught that, or their lack of boundaries or structure or care or nurture. All these really key things that come second nature to, to me because that's what I was raised with. You know, that's, that it's that. It's seeing what's behind the behaviour as opposed to just seeing what's in front of you. But when there's a group of young people together and they're displaying those same behaviours, that can be quite scary for people too. So it's almost kind of easier to write that off as just, they're difficult, they're bad, they're, you know, they're violent, rather than, okay, well, what's going on? And it's so much easier for me because I have them in a secure unit where I've got the space to do that. You're not going to do that when you're walking down the street. No, because it can be very intimidating if these people are out, as we've seen, you know, you've got the elderly lady trying to do her food shopping coming out of Asda. Yeah. And confronted by this group of 12, 13-year-olds on their bikes trying to do wheelies, screaming, laughing, pushing about, and intimidation coming. And I wonder with these individuals that when they see an elderly person, do they not think that could be my grandma? You know, why would I do that or try and frighten something like that? Or is it them being part of the pack, the tribe? Who's going to be the funniest? It's all about the laugh. It's all about, you know, the adrenaline pumping and who's going to be the chief. Yeah, and there's also that element where having that process of thought, oh, that could be my grandma, is actually quite sophisticated. You know, that requires time, patience, evaluating the situation rather than just acting on the impulse. Which is quite often what happens. And I think, you know, when you're in that kind of gang culture as well, or, you know, your peers are displaying the same behaviour, it's actually not always about being the best or being the chief. It's a lot of the time it's about survival. And that's, that's to me what we talk about, you know, we talk a lot about kids, there's a lot of language about kids being manipulative or using the system, etc., but actually how I view it is just purely survival. And if I was in a situation that some of these young people are in, I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing. You know, what you do is you do whatever it takes to survive, and that's— you kind of almost have to prioritize yourself in a way that perhaps you or I wouldn't be as comfortable with when we're teenagers, because we haven't had to prioritize ourselves because we've had somebody to do that for us. So basically, you know, it's almost like you're let loose in the world and at the age of 12 with absolutely no guidance, and you've not got that anchor that is required to help you grow and develop and become, I suppose, a healthy, well-rounded individual. Because when you're looking, you know, as we're getting deeper into this conversation, when you look at it, we've talked about the child, you know, that's been neglected, etc. And we're now looking at children that are in this gang, if you're out, you see them, that you say it's more impulse stuff that they do, um, and then it's consequences after. So they've acted and then the consequence follows them because they did not have that thought process to go in. Um, so what about a child then? You know, we— because some of these children do come from very good homes where parenting is correct, you know, and they are told, but they just fight against it constantly. Do you still think there is a— when you look at this neighbor that lives next door to— I'm just using a neighbor because it just, you know, gives us the overall thing. So you're— I'm living next door to a neighbor who's got children in there, and there's probably 5 or 6 of the kids, they've all got their pack in order, you know, which they're doing, you know. Big brother, etc., you know, um, coming through. But you may get the middle son, and some people, it's the middle child syndrome, um, or you've got where this middle child, yeah, mum's got the dinner on the table, in at 7, you're not out, you're coming like that, and they retaliate because they want to stay out in the tribal gang friends that they've enjoyed, this comedian friend that's in there and coming around and started to get his roots in this tribal gang. And again, you see the kids, you know, um, at school. I, I was in, uh, yeah, I had some friends at school. We were at our own little, uh, niche and would go out and everything like that. But we were all built up from different parts where our families all went to different sort of, uh, employment, etc. But for this other, you know, say 12, 13-year-old, it's from a very good family. The grandparents very well bred. England, people seem very well bred. It's a— it's not a snobbery name. I do apologize to the listeners. They think I'm coming across as a snob here. I'm not. I'm just trying to— some people come from the highest levels where they go to private schooling but come home in the day. They're not boarders, come home, they're in, and then they'll meet them on a Saturday, for instance. But they're there, they come for good stuff. But when you start saying, you know, in age, no, you're home, you're not going camping with them, you're not going to do this— if they've come in, they've been punished and they've been really chastised by the father, you know, as the head of the family. But then they still continue to go on and, you know, probably start smoking a joint— that's what they call it, smoking a joint— and then they start thieving to go in there, this whole pack thing. You know, and the police start calling and say, why are you doing this? You're trying your best as a parent to do that, and they can't fix them. How does that person in that situation— what has gone wrong with that part? Well, I suppose, I suppose if I knew the answer to that, I would be a very rich woman. But, you know, there's, there's— for me, it tends to be a kind of feeling of connection or a feeling of being like somebody else or connecting to somebody in a kind of same mental state, or it could be, you know, it could be, it could happen in the space of a month or two when you're maybe not, you're going through puberty, you're going through adolescence, etc., and you're looking for that because you look to your peers for how to form your identity when you're at that age as well. So I mean, obviously we talked before about the kids that have not had great experiences, but the kids that have had great experiences, they still go through the the brain development stages of trying to find that connection, trying to form your identity, and you know, that reconfiguring that happens when you're in your early adolescence into kind of early 20s. So it is, I suppose, it's a really vulnerable time, and it's very much then about how it's handled within the home, it's very much about how it's handled within school, etc. You know, it's, I mean, I'd love to give you a more kind of comprehensive answer to that, but I would need to know each case individually because there will be, there will be some point in their life, or there'll be something that, that whether it be just simple brain development that has brought them to this point as well. You know, as you say, they might have tried a joint and they might have really liked that, and they do it a bit more, and they do it a bit more, because when you like something, you tend to try and do it a wee bit more. And that has been the thing that's led them in. You know, it could be something really simple and fleeting that then becomes quite formative for them. Lovely, thank you for that. And another question, Rhona, is do you think that parents can be too strict, you know, in their home life when you bring a child up with, you know, when they've taught them as a young child this is bedtime 7 o'clock, getting up at 6, bath time is on a Sunday. I mean, when we were, I was brought up, I was never allowed out Sunday afternoon with my school friends. Um, or, you know, because it was always right in the morning. Well, you know, you do that, but Mum was making dinner or something like that, and you'd have playtime. But then when you came in to have your Sunday dinner, and sometimes my grandma would come, but that was family time, that was family day. And no, you know, then the cousins would come over, um, you know, they would take it in order You meet your cousin and then it'd be in bath at 7 o'clock, hair wash, ready for school. Now that was very strict, you know, but to have that, um, like eating around the table, no matter what, we always ate at the table together. We was never allowed not to do that. But some people think that's too strict, um, you should allow your child the freedom to just go out, eat their food in the bedroom. And I, my views, or since then, probably because of my teaching, that you, if you eat around the table, you can see if there's any issues. You can, you can see your child if there's a problem about being able to have that freedom to speak and express, you know, by eating. You let them go off, you're breaking it up, you're breaking up the family. Some people will be screaming at the radio now saying, don't be so damn ridiculous, LKJ. But from my overall knowledge of what I've seen in my own journey is that it is better to speak together. It's better to say, I've got to go around, you know, set the table and have dinner. I know they're itching and trying to catch the train, you know, to get out and see their friends. But just so that you know they're fine, they're in there. Yes, of course, sometimes, you know, we were allowed to go out and so I'm staying at friends this evening, having dinner or stuff like that, is where you would see the different way that they would live and eat and what they would do. But that my thing is that keeps a little bit more grounded. Am I wrong to express those words? I know you're not going to tell me I'm wrong personally, but I'm just trying to say, would you think that would help the society as the listeners going in that have more time at the table with your children rather than let them just go off to their room, you know, and to keep connected even if you could only do it once a week. I think, yeah, you know, that kind of— I suppose there's a difference for me between being strict and overbearing versus that respect thing within the house as well. You know, if my mum had, for example, said, right, I'm gonna make us a nice dinner on Wednesday night or Saturday afternoon or whatever, I would respect that and it'd be like, okay, that's the plan for this week. If she was saying to me every single night, you can't go out, you can't do this, you can't go see your friends, then that's a whole other— that's two really different situations. What you're talking about is lovely and ideal, and that's bringing the family together, it's given that space to talk. And quite often teenagers are not really up for talking, so, you know, you're sitting with them and just seeing, as you say, their body language, you're getting an idea of how they're feeling, but that's quite a different thing from being a really, really strict household. So there's, you know, what I think what your first question was about, do you think the kind of strictness can also lead to some difficulties? I do, I do think it can, but, you know, I suppose there can be strict with respect and then there could be strict for strict's sake. So it's difficult again to say for a sweeping generalisation, but actually that togetherness and that unity is really, really important, but you also have to be able to grow from that. So you have to be able to go out and explore the world in your own way a bit as well, and that would allow you to do that in a safe way. Whereas if you're being constrained into the house where you're saying no, where your parent is saying no, you're not allowed out, you're not allowed to do this, you're really, really strict rules without any kind of leeway or without any kind of, I suppose, discussion or compromise, which is all skills that we need when we grow up, that, that, that will be more difficult. That is definitely more difficult. But on the flip side of that, I think, you know, some of the kids that I work with, they would love nothing more than to sit around a family dinner table and have that. You know, when we have it in the secure unit, at dinnertime, everybody sits around the dining table, and we are acutely aware of how actually traumatising that can be for some people because they've never had that before. But that's— we then work on increasing that for them and getting them more time at the dinner table and making that a more comfortable experience because it has such value. Spending that time talking and even just being in the company of other people who talk and can communicate, you learn, don't you? And it's that, it's that learned behaviour thing that's going to serve you, serve you pretty well. So we're, you know, that the strictness and the real, real stringent rules are quite different from a respectful household where there are certain things put in place, your parents ask you to do something and generally you're expected to do it, but without, without that real strict backlash, I suppose. Does that make sense? Yes, because what we're looking at is balance. Yes, absolutely. Balance of the scales. Be firm but not too, too firm. So you, as you say, no, you're in, all right, 5 o'clock, no, you don't go out. Like on a Sunday, you know, that, that was balanced because we was allowed out, you know, but on a Sunday you respect your parents. Yep, you've got school and make sure that hair's washed. And we're all there together because Dad's not working, etc. We're all there together and we'd have a game or do something like that. Mum, but as we got older, it was a bit different, you know. You wanted to meet a boyfriend, you know, at the bar or something. But I was still told to be home on the 11 o'clock bus because they knew if you wasn't in at that time, there would be something wrong. And that guidance was like fairness with that. So Yeah, we spoke about that part, and as we go through, the listener is with the 12, 13, 14-year-old coming in and the different aspects of that. Because it— I'm sure when I was doing my training for mental health, it's about 14, isn't it, that the first signs of self-harm are shown generally? Well, yeah, again, I suppose that's quite— that is general. I mean, I've seen it from all— yeah, it's just a general— I'll do a second before 14, but it can start as early as from 6, 7, 8, 9, as they're learning to and expressing, isn't it? Yeah, and I suppose actually, you know, self-harm is a bit of a sticking point for me as well, because unfortunately the reality is it is a coping strategy. It is something that helps people cope with their day-to-day life, and the flip side of that again is that actually because of all this kind of social media element where it's so much more accessible, you know, knowledge and information about this, that that can become— people seek things like that out and they're able to access these resources that perhaps I wasn't able to when I was younger, or yourself, you know. That it can be displayed in different ways at all different ages, but when we're talking about kind of cutting and burning, etc., different types of self-harm that are more obvious and then yeah, you know, it's 14 is probably, yeah, it's probably a fairly average age for when that happens. But as you say, it can happen, it can happen throughout kind of late childhood into your adolescence as well. And even into adulthood, but we're not moving there. It's just for the listener, you know, to understanding under the mental health side, self-harm is, you know, when you harm yourself on purpose by such effects as scratching, cutting, when you overdose on medication, biting yourself, burning yourself. Self-harm isn't a mental illness, but it is often linked to mental distress. Yeah, yeah. And one of the things, you know, to listen to somebody that's out there that, you know, has these feelings, that self-harm is because you're finding it difficult to cope with your mood. You did— you're finding it difficult when you're going into adolescence, you know, when they're starting their period, you know, the female start, you know, going through the changes, going not quite sure where those emotions fit or like, but having the guidance. And like you said, if you haven't got— if you've got people there that are being neglected, that don't understand it, it can leave stuff in there. You're more likely to self-harm as a young person Would you say? Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's rare that it starts in adulthood. There's usually some sign or symptom of it when you're younger as well. Yeah, yeah. But the thing being, when we're talking about the self-harm, even if there are young people that are going on to these sites, because they do know they have access, and when you have people like yourself on, and Anne, who work very closely with people, reach out. Is what we're saying to them. You know, if you— it's an emotion you're not sure about, use the internet for the positive way to find something. And there is a connection. If somebody went on your site, oh, that's who it is, and she rang up, Sarah Gullford, I heard you on the radio today, you would then know how to speak to them, are they in private practice, how to lead them into the right direction. Yeah, absolutely. And that, you know, that I think that self-harm is a very insular, I suppose, behaviour that people have, you know. It's something you do on your own for yourself, and I think when you then decide to talk about it, that in itself can be like you're almost giving yourself, giving something away of yourself, giving a wee bit to other people, and that can be a really vulnerable moment as well. So it's, I suppose, it's about the response with self-harm, you know, if somebody is reaching out, they're not expecting you to cure it for them immediately, they're not expecting you to give them a solution immediately, but how you respond to that is really, really important. And I suppose it's always about being calm and, you know, trying not to be— I suppose a lot of people, when they see cutting or burning or any of the other things you described, your immediate reaction is, 'Oh my God,' when actually If you can view it as something that's helped that person to survive. We don't want people to do that, of course we don't, but until we can give another coping strategy, we're not going to whip that one away, and we're not— it's really important that the individual doesn't feel any more shame about it. So how you respond to that is really important as well. Yeah, because when you are trying to tell someone, as you said, and greatly put, Rhona, that, you know, we were discussing, and that's with you, your private practice, I'm just trying to an overall view of different bits and picking out stuff you do. Like, you know, one of the things that you do speak in private practice is self-harm. That's why I'm touching on this as well, that for the listener, that how can I tell someone I self-harm? So after listening to Rhona, you know, and saying what you can do, and it is something from my side, you know, if you feel that it's just you. If you feel that you are the only one that is self-harming, you might like to— the people close to you, that they may not understand. You may not understand, like you're saying, you can't quite get that. But there is always ways to reach out to people. And if you need to reach out to help with your recovery, you don't have to tell somebody in person. You can write it in a letter, an email, you can make a video or audio recording for them, but don't put it onto social media because that's one of the worst things you could do. So if you are feeling like that, then write it down and leave it with a note. So you'll cry out and say, look, can you help me? How do I do that? I mean, you know, then, you know, you can look together, isn't it? Your friend or family member can go, you know, with a GP. You can talk, you know, they might get somebody like yourself where you can employ, and there's no shame or harm in saying, do you know what, perhaps you need a bit of counselling, perhaps you need it. Perhaps you as a parent think, I don't know how to address this, I never suffered with it myself as a child, I don't know how to address it, never done this, then pick up the phone and look for somebody who's an expert like yourself to work, because working with therapy will actually help. And if you don't do it in their childhood, they will take it through to adulthood, and then it becomes problems that may be created later in the adulthood that we always have to go back to childhood, and the pattern is formed. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I often think when I'm, I suppose, dealing with somebody that has self-harming behaviours, it's generally the people round about them that need the most work, because that individual knows exactly what's going on and they know exactly what they should be doing and what they shouldn't be doing. But the reality is that self-harm works in the moment, you know, it releases that feeling, and it's about accessing that, saying to the person that's perhaps telling you that they're a self-harmer, how can we help you release that feeling in a way that's healthy and like a proactive adaptive coping strategy for you, rather than stop that, shut that down, you can't do that anymore, we don't want you to do that. Obviously we don't want you to do that, but it's that reality of this is for them, this is their thing, and if we go in and just say, oh my god, this is a big disaster, we need to change all of this immediately, then you're taking away something from them that's actually helped them to survive, and that's the reality. That's what we're dealing with. So the importance of a kind of slowly, slowly soft approach with people who self-harm is much more effective than, "Right, no, we're just going to stop doing that. This is what we're going to do instead." The reality is that it's going to take time to change that, but work with the person to change it. And it is horrifying at times, it really is. I've seen some terrible, terrible things, but that person has always worked better when you've got— you've basically gone over and sat next to them. 'You're with them,' rather than 'Please stop that right now.' You know, and that sounds really— I suppose it sounds like what you wouldn't expect somebody to say, a therapist to say, because you want them just not to self-harm. But it's about understanding that actually that process of change has to happen over time. So when somebody does tell you, whatever way they choose, as you, you know, you gave a load of suggestions there which are great, it's about how that other person responds. And a lot of, as I said, a lot of the work that I do is about parents dealing with adolescents that self-harm, or partners, or, you know, like parents even that self-harm. There's— it's about that person, how they— the person that's receiving the news, how they deal with it, because that's really important as well. Because obviously, like yourself, and for any of the listeners or parents that are out there, you can access NICE, which is NICE, which has guidelines, uh, what to do. And NICE, N-I-C-E, is the National Institute for Care and Excellence, which produces best practice recommendations for healthcare providers. Now, to access the guidelines, there are two, two main ones: recommended short-term management of self-harm and long-term management. For short-term self-harming over 8s is a short-term management and prevention of reoccurrence, and that can be found at www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg16. You can then, for self-harming over 8s long-term management, again is www www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg133, and obviously you will find some help, etc. Do look if you are having these issues, and any listener that's come on to the show today with Rona, uh, Rona McLoughlin, um, if you— after the show and when it's out, then you can contact Women's Radio Station you can get in touch with Rhona. Rhona, as I said in the beginning, is a private practice. She has been since 2013, based in Scotland. But you do, you do online therapy courses, Rhona? Yeah, absolutely. I've actually always offered it, but it was few and far between. You know, I have people kind of all over the world actually, but mainly Europe. But you know, Since the pandemic, obviously, I was completely online for a period of time aside from my work in the secure unit. So yeah, it's absolutely, it's great actually. It's really been, I was quite nervous about it, but actually it's worked out really, really well. So yeah, there's a lot of online, a lot of online therapy goes on now. I have been looking at some statistics and stuff, surveys that are up regarding this online work, therapy work. And actually there's been a higher percentage of people uptaking the therapy line to help with their children to go in, and that the child feels better doing that one-to-one than being dragged along to— it's just like going to the doctor's in a room, come and pick me up like that. Sometimes they're on their laptop, they can go in their room and have their hour or half hour of guidance and counseling, etc., with you. But what if the— how would they contact you if a listener thought, I really could connect to Rhona, I really could, I think my child could, or even for them, because it's not just children you deal with, these, all these self-harm adults and um, the anxiety, psychosis, low esteem, depression. Is this in just children? You actually deal with adults. So how could they contact you if they wanted to get in touch? And then, you know what, she had such an easing voice, um, and listening to this, our show, that they can make a connection with you and say, I need to, I, I need to do that. Perhaps that will help. Perhaps if they have the child, you know, perhaps they are being a bit too strict with their child, and that's why you're getting some retaliation. Working, you know, with therapy is, is a good thing, and you look back at it in adult life and say, okay, there is no shame to speak in therapy. We will all suffer with some form of mental health during our life. Now, how would they contact you? That is the question, if you may, so that makes it easier for the listeners if they are listening to your, you know, the show? Well, I've got a website. In fact, if you actually just put my name into Google, it would come up, you know, Rhona McLaughlin and Greenock, it would come up. But my website is cbtinverclyde.com. Could you phonetically spell that out? So it's just CBT, so it's for short for Cognitive Behavioral Psychotherapy. Inverclyde is where I'm from, so that's inverclyde.com. Wonderful. It's just for anybody, you know, we all have a different dialect. When I go to Wales with my father, and people never think, "Well, how can she speak English? She's Welsh," you know. We have quite a strong accent. Just for that, so people know where they can get hold of you, Rona, with that. Um, I want to touch on now, if I may, um, post-traumatic stress disorder. And I want to ask you this question from a personal level. Um, how do you define when somebody has post-traumatic stress syndrome? The reason I ask, because reaching out to somebody and someone yourself My son, I believe, is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, okay? Although he may not admit it, and some anger moments— not angry with his wife, etc., but his whole sort of sometimes. And I said to him, okay, are you sure you are okay? Why do you say that, Mum? Sometimes you look angry in your eyes. No, no, I've been working. And then he actually opened up and went, I do struggle some days, Mum. And but obviously for me, with my therapy and all my kind of thing, I cannot advise my son other than a mother because it's illegal to do that. I can't sit him down and say, come and sit in the chair and give you an hour's counseling or something. I can't do that. I can only speak to him as a mum, but He says he's been suffering and he's actually opened up because his wife said, you need to speak to your mum, you know. And I said, I can't do that, you're going to have to see someone. But I said, I wasn't interviewing you today. And one of the reasons, saying, you know, is to pass the number on myself because he joined the army and he was on the last tour of Afghanistan. And what happened is after that tour on the last— and the stuff that he'd seen. A missile had hit his tank, and we got the call in the night, his wife, myself, and thought that he was never going to come home. And there's many listeners that would have had people— there may be listeners that are suffering from post-traumatic stress. But the reality is that this was 2014. It's you know, 2014, 8 years now, when he said this stuff. And they're taught in the army that you can't disclose this information. But he said if you'd seen the stuff, what they did, they had to fire, kill these people, then go out and collect obviously the remains because they were a human being. They have to have the respect to put it in. He said, I'm being hit. And although he said the landscape of, um, Afghanistan was absolutely beautiful. He was there, he was service to the Crown, he did that, but he's come back with issues. And he said, but you know, he's not violent to his wife, he's not violent to his friends, but inside he has to— he still sleeps with the light on. And I said, what do you mean you sleep with the light on? And his wife said, he sleeps with the light on still. I mean, that's Yeah, you know, and I said, I think you're suffering, and because I know post-traumatic stress myself, but I can't be seen to be speaking about that and telling him that way. It's why I'm talking in this format to you, for the listeners to hear. So I am speaking as a listener coming, you know, that doesn't have the knowledge, even though I do. I have to do that because I can't coax him in any way or lead him in any way other than giving him your number. But for me, I'm simply asking you a question on post-traumatic stress syndrome regarding— and the army and what he came back from. But when he came back from that tour, two-thirds of his regiment all left the army after that tour, including my son. And then that, you know, they They all threw the thing. Why do— one of my questions is, you know, when— if I was in the army or I was the mental health expert or watching out and meant to be there protecting our soldiers that are out there, why was there no help? You know, just that them— how can you let somebody come back from a situation and they're not be treated? Why was it that a whole regiment, nearly, uh, two-thirds of them had retired from that and left and jacked it in because they obviously experienced something which they're not legally allowed to, but has left them all with quite severe trauma. Yeah, I suppose, I mean, again, it's another bugbear of mine, massive bugbear of mine, you know, that our soldiers are coming back and they've had very, very— I mean, they've got combat stress, which is a useful resource, but not a lot of people access it, and I think it's because, you know, if your son was out there and in those situations, in fight and fire and all those kind of things that were happening, if he was always accessing his feelings and he was always trying to process and manage his feelings and explore what was happening and why he was feeling certain ways, he wouldn't be able to do his job. And I think they're so— our soldiers have been so finely tuned to just deal with what's in front of them, and as you say, you know, they're serving the crown, they're doing their bit, that's what their duty is, that's what they have to follow. If they were to explore anything else, then it just wouldn't work because it would actually potentially be more damaging for them if they were out there still in the situation trying to explore what was making them feel the way that they felt. So they don't have the resources out there, but because of that, when they leave the Army, they then don't have anything either. And the Army, the reality is, is not very good at dealing with mental health. I mean, it's just and be very polite here, actually, it's really, really bad at dealing with mental health. And, you know, you get these, these really brusque soldiers who have been out and dealt with horrendous things and are expected to come back and just go on with a normal life. And what we don't take into account is actually that their, their functioning is way above what mine or yours would be. So they're constantly hypervigilant, they're constantly aware, and you expect them to come back and just slot right back into normal society where those things aren't expected. And it's, it's just so hard to— it's almost like being really, really hyper and high for a duration, and then just like that you have to stop. So there's no wonder there's a backlash of how these, these individuals are feeling and what's happening to their body and their brain. It's horrendous. But because they come back and they leave the Army, they then don't access the same— any resources that are there, and they, they're really taught to, as you said, not speak about things and not disclose any uncomfortable feelings that they have. So that goes on for a period of time where they kind of, what's the word, they acclimatise, they come back and they acclimatise to normal society. They're so busy focused on that, they're not really being able to focus on what's going on in their brain. Then when things kind of calm down for them, all of this other stuff hits. So it's almost like, well, I've been back for 6 months, for example, I've been back for 6 months, why is this only happening now? When actually that's exactly when we would expect it to happen, but there's not even enough literature out there about what we call psychoeducation. I mean, you'll know about that as well with your training, but that kind of just basic information— this might be some of the ways that you're feeling, and this is why you're feeling some of those ways. And sometimes that is just enough of a lightbulb moment for somebody to go, God, I'm not— I've not lost it, I'm not crazy, I'm not mad. Because people don't feel like themselves when they come back, and then they don't understand what's happened. And that's why so many people want to go back really quickly as well and do another tour, because that's they're so finely tuned for that life now that they can't live a kind of, I suppose, normal, as it were, societal life. So what we're looking at is a pattern here, as you were saying, and was saying, that people find it's better to be back there where they understand and what's going on, and that love of their companionship with their friend, than being in another place saying, this doesn't feel right, because they don't— they can't deal with their emotions and that in there. Well, thank you for that. I will pass that number on to him and, you know, I will chat to you after the show regarding that. But just going on to that, because we are running out of time, the hour goes so quickly, and it will be lovely to bring you back on, you know, again for another show at some point, because I do want to keep this show running, as I said to Anne, throughout the whole year on specific stuff. So we have addressed quite in-depth on the young children with the secure setting today. We've really then looked at self-harm. We've just only bordered on post-traumatic stress disorder, but I would like to come back and, you know, let's have a show where we can talk about anxiety, loneliness, and depression, if you may, to get that in, because they're all different subjects that can help them to come in there. I'll see with complex trauma, etc. These are all bits that we can talk. And people think when you're listening to the show for an hour, thinking, what do you talk about? There is so much, you know, to be there. You know, and you, you know, there's courses that people spend hours and hours going on there. You can switch in and it's only a small amount of time that is given. Even an hour, you know, for a lot of people, say, an hour on the show could say so much. Where a lot of people, you know, you go onto the TV, you've got like 5 minutes just to give a brief overview. With this show allowing that hour, it's allowing people to relax, listen in, and gain some confidence, or to know that we're there and that they can call you, etc. So what I want to— what is your message? We're about— sorry to our listeners, we're basically 3 minutes from the end of our show, but I want to leave you just quickly with Rona with a message, what you would say to the listeners for this first show that you've done on women's radio station. My message would be, whatever it is that's going on for you, somebody wants to hear it. Somebody wants to know and somebody wants to help. Thank you so much for that. And you know, we can't thank you enough for Women's Radio Station for coming on. And again, it would be lovely to bring you back to deal and talk about some other subjects on there. And as I say, you know, it doesn't go away. Mental health will never go away. We'll always be dealing with it. What we need to do is bring it to the forefront and that it, you know, there's no shame in talking about it. It's better to be able to speak to someone. And but for the person that's in an office or in your office to say, I think John's not right today, there's something going on. That you are taught mental health awareness. Let's all become mental health aware that if you do see perhaps John's having a bad day, yes, perhaps he struggled through the pandemic, the bills, all these energy bills going up. But talk to somebody that may be able to help. We're going to be facing rocky roads, whatever. But being mental health aware, you can save somebody's life by being mentally health aware. And that's what, um, it's what I would like to do. You know, we are in January, everyone's got the blues, you know, from Christmas meeting, having all that The circle starts again with January, you know, the darker nights. People suffer with SAD, don't they? We're looking for some light, you know, the winter. Fortunately, we haven't had such a bad winter in all, but you know, who knows? It's snowed in April before, you know. I mean, obviously, if you're up in Scotland, we're still— though I was with Anne, uh, New Year with the bagpipes, which was wonderful, in that wonderful castle. Amazing lady and her passion like yours. You know, you're so passionate about mental health. And when she expressed that, and she did talk to me about yourself, and I'm so glad that you came on the show. Thank you. Because, you know, you've given up your time, you've given up your time. So it's not, oh, I run a private practice, I will come and then book me here. And to do it. But you've given up your time, your voice to say, you know, as you said, speak out, etc., for this. And again, thank you so much, and we look forward to having you back on another show. But for me and for the listeners, I'm very sorry, that's the end of Rona's, you know, story so far, and I hope to welcome her back shortly. Thank you, Rona, and everyone at Women's Radio Station. Goodbye.