Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry I could not travel both and be one traveller, long I stood and looked down as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth; then took the other, just as fair, and having perhaps the better claim because it was grassy and wanted wear, though as for that the passing there had worn them really about the same. And both that morning equally lay, in leaves no step had trodden black. Oh, I kept the first for another day, yet knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I should ever come back. I shall be telling this with a sigh. Somewhere ages and ages hence, two roads diverged in a wood, and I, I took the one less travelled by. And that made all the difference. That's a poem from "The Road Not Taken" by Robert Frost. Within us all there's a uniqueness. The Greeks called it the daemon, or your personal genius. It is that calling, not necessarily religious, but a calling to go in a direction. And as we take that direction, we know that it's our life's path. It just feels right. It's that stream the soul's energy that encourages us to move in a certain way and make certain choices. That is the road less traveled. Socrates is reported to have been inhabited by a daemon, which is— which in crucial moments warned him what not to do. Goethe credits his daemon for his poetic and scientific feats. The poet Rudyard Kipling wrote, when your daemon is in charge, Do not try to think consciously. Drift, wait, and obey. Carl Jung stated, "There was a daemon in me, and in the end its presence proved decisive." In 1871, Nietzsche confessed to an acquaintance, "I just don't seem to have a compass to tell me what I'm destined for, and yet looking back everything seems to fit so well that it's as if a guiding spirit had been showing me the way." Given the ubiquitousness of these reports, it's not surprising that the word vocation, a commonly used synonym for the word purpose, means to be called. Or as Jung explained, who has vocation hears the voice of the inner call. It's his inner man. And so it is the legendary belief that he possesses a private daemon who counsels him and whose mandates we— he must execute. And as James Hillman in his book The Soul's Code tells us, sooner or later something seems to call us onto a particular path. You may remember this something as a signal calling in childhood when an urge out of nowhere, a fascination, a peculiar turn of events struck us like an annunciation. That is what I must do. That is what I've got. That is what I've got to have. This is who I am. It is in that phrase, this is who I am, that the daemon can be found. When you know who you are, both limitation and freedom exist side by side. I'm Dr. Maria Kampinska, a psychotherapist and businesswoman, and in all my years of meeting people of all ages, and some I work with as a therapist and some I employ, This young woman today has stayed in my thoughts and in contact with me over the years. I am full of admiration for her because of her drive, compassion, determination, and focus. When we met, I was on the Women in Business Board for the Duke of Edinburgh Award with Sophie, the Countess of Wessex. She came and gave a talk. She was eloquent, resolute. Her far life was not one of privilege, but somehow she shone. She was 17 with a young baby. She had then, and still has, an inner light that draws people towards her. She works hard and studies hard and raises children. She really is the modern woman. Some people have an amazing talent that is creative, like singing, or artistic, as in fashion or the arts. And some, like my guest today, has the ability to turn young lives around, which is the quiet gift, the the gift of communication, the gift of true connection. How do I know? Because she turned her own life around at the age of 16. Let me introduce Emily Stevens to tell her story. Welcome, Emily, and thank you for taking time to speak to me today. Can you just give everybody a little bit of an insight into your background? Sure. Thank you for that. That was lovely. So my background, I guess, I'm not sure where to start, but I didn't enjoy school, so school was never something that I was going to pursue in terms of college, and I didn't gain qualifications. So when I did become pregnant at 16, that was kind of my path. As you were talking about paths, I had no path before that. There was no understanding within me of where I was going to go or what I was going to do. So became a mum and, um, sort of ever since then have just navigated that really and, uh, you know, pulled from support around me to try and figure that out. And yeah, and then it all— I mean, there's a million things to talk about really. There are millions of things. So let's, let's talk briefly about your background. At the age of 16, you were pregnant, I remember you saying. So give me an idea of what your environment was like. What was your home like, your parents, and what was your physical environment, your social environment? Okay, so I grew up in a sort of community called Fresdonia, which was— so I lived in a property with my parents and my sister, who— and they'd gained their property through squatters' rights in the '70s. So I grew up in a kind of hippie environment that was, you know, rebellious and collaborative and everybody knew each other. We all worked together in this community. So I was brought up with a lot of independence and a lot of strength with a lot of amazing women around me and men, but very amazing women. And was very much brought up to, you know, make my own decisions and be confident in my thoughts and where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do. So It was a real big shock becoming pregnant. It wasn't something that was planned in any way. It wasn't something anyone had expected. So, and at the time I was living with my parents in our council house and I'd finished school and I had no plans for the coming year. So I'd found out I was pregnant in September, so I kind of should have already made a plan. I should have already been going to college or doing something and I hadn't figured out what I was going to do. So in a way that was kind of like, okay, well, I'll just do that then. And this is the thing, this is, you know, everyone's been bugging me to figure out what I'm going to do, so I'm just going to have to— Yeah, that moment of decision. Yeah. Okay, just before we go into that moment of decision-making, because I know how big it was and how important it was for you and, you know, how well chosen— there you are, 16, people underestimate teenagers. Some people underestimate teenagers, let's put it that way. But what was your social life like? Where did you hang out? What were— what did you do for fun? A lot of hanging out at the park and, you know, drinking WKDs and doing general mischief. I wasn't particularly sort of, you know, unruly or off the rails. I hung around a lot with my sister and her friends, so they were a bit older, And we did just— I mean, our main thing was going ice skating in Queensway Ice Bowl, which was kind of where it was at at that time. I had a couple of really close friends, and I was with my son's father, who I spent most of my time with. I guess we were attached at the hip, and we spent a lot of time in, like, the local pub. And with his family or with our friends and just generally milling around with not much purpose or not much to do. Okay, and do you think that was what— that school, um, just didn't cater for that? What was going on at school? I mean, I'm— this isn't proportion blame to school. I think it's very difficult nowadays, uh, because we're changing so fast and even faster now, but this was at the beginning of the turn of the century, which is a funny thing to say, but it was. But, you know, why did you feel that you didn't have a direction? Was it because you didn't know, you had no choice, or where you'd— or could you just not find it for yourself? I think I always felt in school, um, that I, I never really belonged, and I never really figured out what sort of social group or, or who I was. I think I've always had this real battle with myself of being like this hippie child, you know, running naked in the forest, mixed with this person who's actually quite materialistic. And I like money and I like doing things properly, you know, the way the normal life is. And I've always had this weird sort of disconnect with that because it's difficult to do both. And I've always been sort of the most commercial one in my family and the one that everyone kind of looks at and thinks, oh my God, she's so, you know, she's she's just bought new shoes. It was all a bit wild to them because, you know, my mum used to make our clothes and nobody cares at all what they look like. So I think going to secondary school, suddenly everybody cared about everything and everyone was so judgmental and I wasn't used to that. And I think at that I struggled to try— I tried too hard to fit in with that and to find out who I was within that, um, and that resulted in me not really having true friendships and just generally struggling. And then with the education side, I always felt like I had left primary school, like I'd gone into Year 7, and that everyone else had been on some, like, tutoring course over summer because everyone seemed to know what was going on. And I felt like, oh my God, what is anyone talking about? Like, I don't get any of this. Um, and it— in— when I started my first degree, that I was dyslexic, and I think that that potentially was where it went wrong. I just wasn't sort of catered for in the way that I learn, and I just sat there being confused for years. And do you think that's why you got into a relationship? Quite, you know, was it quite a long-standing relationship? Yeah, I'd known him since I was 11. He was best friends. So I think, I think it was kind of more of a natural thing, maybe not the reason, but definitely a part of just, um, a natural sort of we're, you know, we're that age now and it's, it's everyone sort of getting in relationships and, and getting together and so we just did that. Yeah, and, uh, how long did you stay together for? Um, we were on and off from when I think we first went out when we were literally like 11 and we broke up because he threw my peanut butter sandwich on the floor and I remember that so clearly. Um, and then we kind of got back together when I was about 15 and stayed together until we're about 19. Right, so your life has totally changed, which we'll come to, but you then find you're pregnant. How was he with your pregnancy? How was your— what's his name, by the way? Robert. Robert. How was Robert with the pregnancy? Um, he was just, I think, just completely shell-shocked for the whole thing. Um, I don't think he knew. I think it was really difficult for him, and I, I kind of reflect on this a lot, is how he just really didn't have a choice in the matter, and he didn't, and I didn't really ask him or worry about what he thought. I just did what I wanted, and I always think that, and we have these conversations now about how hard that must have been for him as a 17-year-old to have absolutely no control over such a huge life decision. Like, at least I got to make the decision, yeah, and he didn't. I was taken away from him completely, and And he's really struggled with it. I think he just didn't know what to do, what was expected of him. He wasn't ready to grow up. So that was part of our sort of relationship problems from then on, were to do with me really suddenly becoming an adult and him not really being there yet. And how were your parents? They were, you know, obviously not very happy about the situation. They were sort of erring on the side of, am I going to have an abortion? And that being kind of an obvious answer. Not that they like that option, but it was a bit ridiculous to think that I could have this baby, and it was so unexpected. And so there were those discussions around what the options are. And that's it. And they were easy— were they easy-ish to talk to about it? Um, I think they were. I wasn't. I think I was in a really sort of just horrible teenage stage where I didn't even really treat them as people. They were just these, you know, people that sorted out a place for me to live, and I didn't really communicate with them. Much at all. So you're saying that is so— because my children are now growing up, but anybody who's had children, and when you work with children, you get that. And when you were, you know, a teenager, you get that equally, you know. You— their parents are there, but you not quite don't have the same relationship as you do later. But you then decided, you said, to go to make the decision. And how did you make the decision to whether to have an abortion or keep your baby? So my dad had organised for me to do a counselling session. My dad's a counsellor himself and has always been involved in that kind of sector. So he was really keen on me getting professional help to make a decision, you know, really figuring out what I want, because I was also unsure. It wasn't that I wanted this baby and everyone was telling me to have an abortion. It wasn't that at all. It was that I was sitting there going, oh my gosh, I do not know what to do. This is too much. And I was kind of letting the weeks go on, just not talking about it. And my dad was like, right, I've booked you an appointment, we're going. And we went in our VW Camper to like an abortion clinic that also does counseling. And I had, I think, like an hour session with a counselor. And that, I think that was life-changing, really. I think I've never looked back on my decision and wondered what if, because I feel like at that time I was really given the tools to make a full and final decision about what I wanted. And I don't know how I ever would have come to that conclusion without any worry or doubt without that session. Tell us about that session, because it sounds such a powerful session, you know, that one moment, if you like, that one hour that in a way changed your life, didn't it? Yeah. And I think it went the opposite way. So everyone thought I'd go to this counseling session and realize I was being ridiculous to have an abortion. But I don't remember sitting there and discussing things. I don't remember what was said or what they encouraged me to think about, but I remember her saying to me, "It just sounds like you've made up your mind." Uh-huh. And me going, "Yeah, I have." And her saying, "Would you like me to call your dad in so that we can have that conversation together?" And did you? You did? Yeah, so Dad came in, you know, she sort of said, look, Emily's made a decision, and I told him, and from then, you know, it all changed. I think they just accepted my decision. My dad paid for me to have a scan, so we saw the baby on the screen and got a printout and everything. So it kind of, you know, once I made my decision and everyone thought, okay, no, she's going for this, then we probably got to get on board. Yeah, and, um, but that is part of your nature, isn't it? Yeah, do what I want kind of nature. Yeah, as I said in the introduction, there's something that drives us to that decision-making process. You weren't following the norm, you weren't following actually what everybody else potentially could have done at this age, because having a child at 16— in fact, when I was growing up, to have a child at 16— people got married, had kids at 16, That was common, but now it's very uncommon to do that. Definitely, you know. And so you were going through all your hormonal change, the oxytocin, everything was kicking in, but your parents were now on board and yeah, this is it, this is what you're going to do. Yeah, exactly. And it was, you know, I think everyone, everyone then stopped seeing it as a negative thing and started looking forward to it, which was nice. It was after quite a while of of it being this real sort of negative atmosphere and nobody really wanting to talk about it and it being this awkward thing. It then became like at Christmas, everybody bought stuff for the baby and I bought me some stuff now being a mum and stuff. So that was the kind of, I think around Christmas was kind of the turning point where everyone, I started to feel like I was being accepted again. Yeah. And now you had somebody else to look after. Yeah. And what was that like? How was the, you know, sort of your baby boy went— what's his name again? Luke. Luke. Little Luke. So little Luke arrives into the world. Now let's not pretend, and let's— I don't want— you don't have to go into any detail, but having a baby is a major event. It's life-changing. It changes you physically, it changes you psychologically, it changes everything because you now have to look after somebody else, don't you? Yeah, first, the first thing you think about, your child. I think, like, for you, but I think that age and with that little sort of life experience, I think I hadn't, I hadn't really experienced much freedom, you know. I hadn't been on holiday, I hadn't been out clubbing, I hadn't been able to fully make my own decisions, you know. I lived off pocket money from my parents, and, um, and I think I think in some ways I found that easier than me having my children at 30 and 33, because at 30 and 33 I had to give up so much independence because Luke was now, you know, getting older and he goes to his dad's. And so I've always still gone on holidays and had, you know, been able to work freely and, and, you know, meet all of my needs, whereas I didn't really have much expectations back then and I didn't have any expectations of money, so when I, you know, did live off benefits, that was the most money I'd ever had. So it wasn't, it wasn't as difficult as when you then take a pay cut to go on statutory maternity leave because you're used to earning thousands a month and then you get hardly anything. So I think that's quite an interesting, as you say, that juxtaposition between having a baby at 16 and now you've got 2 more children where you've had to make those changes, haven't you? Yeah, and I think the main— I guess my mum always said that she didn't want me to miss out. And my mum's an incredible woman and my dad also an incredible man, and they are the most loving and supportive parents. And my mum always said, okay, if you're going to have this baby, I'm going to do whatever I can to mean that you don't miss out. And so there was times where my parents sat in their VW camper with Luke while I was sitting in the pub with my friends, obviously not drinking, but, you know, having a lemonade. And I was coming out to feed the baby every half an hour because I was still breastfeeding and he wasn't in much of a routine. And I think, you know, things like that are probably frowned upon now, especially now I work in children's services. If I heard that story, I'd be a bit concerned. But at the time it was great and it was what I needed. Yeah, and you know, maybe, um, we'll come to the children's services for in a moment because that's your new world, isn't it, where you're going into? And yeah, that's the work you do. So we'll come to that shortly because it's become systematized where when you look back, your parents were very intuitive. They understood what you needed and they understood what Luke needed. And in fact, what's the difference between them sitting at home or sitting in the camper van if they're together? And they sound like quite switched-on parents actually. And it was all with the aim of me continuing to breastfeed and have a life, which I think you can't, you know, you can't put a price on that. I think I'm really pro-breastfeeding, so if that was the difference between me putting him on a bottle so that I could keep my sanity and still go out with my friends when he was, you know, 6 months old, I think that was the— it's about, I guess, compromise, making it work. Yeah, but what's so wonderful, that's, you know, because you know how important that early stage of development is for a baby. Definitely. You know, and we're going to come to that in a little bit more detail because of all your training and studying. You've become, you know, an amazing woman and you're doing such wonderful work. And there you are with this young child, yet with your parents supporting you like that. It sounds such a good idea that we should encourage more of that. Because they had, as I say, that instinct, that understanding of what it takes, but also what you needed to not resent having Luke or having any child in your life. I think that's— it's not whether it was Luke or somebody else, it's any child. Because as you say, if all your friends are going off and doing stuff and you're not joining in, that sort of moment of, oh, I wish I could do that, would have played a little bit of a part in your life. And actually, that still happens, doesn't it, in people's lives? Now. Of course, yeah. And that's because they don't understand and perhaps don't have that greater parent unity and support around them to explain what it all means. I just think the community and the— and, and having support is— I think I've always accepted help. I've never had a problem with sort of asking and accepting help. And I think that is part of the reason why I've been able to be, you know, to get to where I am, is because there was no shame in me saying, actually, I really need a break and I need someone to take the baby for a while. Yeah, and your parents would be there to help you. If not, you'd go. And how involved was Robert? Um, yeah, he was really involved. And, and I think, you know, part of the really sad thing about what— so I moved out, um, and I was placed an hour and a half away in temporary accommodation, and I was told no one is allowed stay there and that I have to stay there every night. So I was, I was there from when I was pregnant. So I was in this really horrific studio flat in a really horrible area, um, in Edmonton by myself. I was living off £30 a week, um, that social care were giving me because I wasn't old enough to claim benefits. And, um, and I wasn't allowed to be with Robert. And that was really, really hard. And it was all for sort of, you know, the long-term gain of trying to get our accommodation sorted. But it was horrific. And to be told that I wasn't allowed to be with anyone and I was completely put in an isolating situation when actually I had a really loving family, really supportive family, and a really loving partner who wanted to be involved in his child's life. So there was just so much wrong about that situation. And then I sort of campaign almost, that really hounded them to say, this isn't right, you can't do this to me. And so they put me— they brought me back to the area and they put me in supported living. Uh-huh. What is supported living? It was like a— it was called, uh, it was like a family support unit, and it was this amazing sort of converted mansion in Notting Hill Gate. It was absolutely beautiful and the staff were incredible, um, and they— and I had a beautiful flat within it, so that was, that was amazing. Um, and the staff taught me to cook. They sort of checked up on me enough to make sure that I was doing what I needed to do. So they would come in and sort of check if the house was tidy, and sometimes it wasn't, and they'd say, come on, Emily, what do you need to do to get it tidy? So they kind of really instilled those daily chores and those things that you really need to make sure you're on top of, which I'd never really had to do before. I just had to sort of hoover the stairs once a week or something at mum's house. Yeah, it changes, doesn't it? But again, Robert wasn't allowed there, so it was another thing where, you know, Robert would only really see Luke if I came out and we'd go for a walk, or we'd go to his parents' house and spend time with the baby. But he was kind of relinquished of any major responsibility because I was breastfeeding. I had Luke with me every night. And he, Robert, was never allowed to be part of the normal, you know, family unit, which is really sad. Okay, so let's flip forward to where you are today and then go into, with your hindsight now, into what you would have changed for you at that age. So let's just go through where you are today, what you're doing, what you've achieved. Okay, um, So I think all my achievements started from doing Duke of Edinburgh, which is how I met you, and doing volunteering with that led to career opportunities. So I've done quite a few jobs now, but, you know, the young mums group that I started at when I was pregnant, they offered me a job as a youth worker and trained me to be a youth worker. So that was the sort of start of everything.. And that was the start of my path, you know, because I still had no idea what was going on and what I was going to do. So they trained me up to be a youth worker, and then through my volunteering for DfE, I started with a small community interest company who then supported me through my first degree in youth work, well, in formal education, youth and community work. So completed that with a first, which I'm very proud of. And what was that degree in, and what was your dissertation? Ah, so the degree was Informal Education, Youth and Community Work, so basically a youth work degree. And my dissertation was an evaluation of sexual health information and advice disseminated through texts. Ah, very interesting. Or apps, really. It was about young people texting for information. Around SRE. What did you find, just out of interest? What was your finding? Um, that, that they don't really use it. Yeah, so it was a project that we were— that was funded and that I was, um, that I managed, and we were struggling with engagement. And it was, it was a weird time because, um, it was sort of when apps were coming out, so there of, and it, but it was before everyone had an iPhone. So like, it was when kids really either didn't have a phone or had a rubbish Nokia. So there was a lot of things that it just was a bit of a weird— I think if we did it now and did it through an app, then it would work great. And I think there are companies that are doing similar things. Um, at the time it was a bit of a struggle. And yeah, the kind of research came out was that it just wasn't really something that young people were interested in. Oh, that's interesting. So you are now doing another degree, which we'll come to, but what was your experience with the Duke of Edinburgh Award? Because we're both big fans of the Duke of Edinburgh Award. And, you know, sort of that's how we met, which has been a joy. So tell me, what was it that the Duke of Edinburgh Award gave you, and how did you get onto it? My young mums' group called Break for You in Kensington and Chelsea, that was run by Connections at the time, was an incredible place to be. It was where I learned to be a mum and where I gained all my best friends that are still my best friends now, who were bridesmaids at my wedding. And that group was very connected to the local DVE coordinator, Louisa Guthrie, who again got nothing but amazing things to say about— she changed my life. And so she's kind of introduced us to the idea of doing DRV and we all just kind of went along with it. I was really interested because I think that did, you know, I have gone camping, we had our VW camper growing up and that was very much, you know, I'd never been abroad or anything, it was always just like camping in Wales for 2 or 3 weeks over summer, so the camping thing didn't worry me or scare me and it was sort of the group work that was the most difficult, I think. The kind of working together as mums and the fact that we took our children. So we were the first people to ever take our children with us on our Duke of Edinburgh expeditions. So yeah, I remember seeing photographs of you with Luke and pushchairs, you know, pushing them over the grassy hills and so on. Yeah, I did my bronze when Luke was about 4 months old, Silver when he was I think 3 or 4, and Gold when he was 6. And did it because it gave you a route, you know, did because you could aim for something? And you're very determined and you're very, you know, determined— I don't want that to sound without compassion because determined has got bad press, but you have got this ability to do things, to change things, to make something happen, and that's such a wonderful ability. So was it helpful to know that you've got all those steps, that you can achieve something? Yeah, I think that's what it was. I think one of the best things about it is that it's— you, you have to achieve so many little things to then achieve the overall, so you always feel like you're, you know, you're achieving and that you're moving forward. So even when things are really hard, you've ticked that off 'now,' and then you just need to tick off a few more things and you've done it. And I think coming from somebody who— I didn't get GCSEs, well, I got like 3 GCSEs, so for me the fact that DofE is recognised on a CV as, you know, the equivalent to GCSEs and A-levels was huge for me. You know, that was a way of me achieving that meant I didn't have to go back to college because that was just not going to happen. So it was definitely, yeah, it was a new, a different way of achieving that really fit with the way I wanted to learn and, you know, the way I wanted to progress. Yeah, and as you say, those small things, but you were able to choose the small things that you did. Yeah, and our young mums group was so, oh my gosh, I mean, thinking now about what we were offered and the opportunities we were offered is mental. So for our skill, they paid for us to do driving lessons. So I learned to drive through my young mums group, through Duke of Edinburgh. I mean, that's unheard of now. It was probably— it cost an extortionate amount of money. Wow. But yeah, that's my skill. So, um, it's incredible really, isn't it? Yeah, it's fabulous as well that you, you were given that, because it's— once you learn to drive, that's such a big deal, isn't it? Yeah. And now I've moved to Peterborough, which in London it wasn't such a big deal, but now in Peterborough, every job you, you have to drive. There's no you know, it's on the job description. And we're not going to go talk too much about the Duke of Edinburgh Award, but did you meet the Duke himself? Yes, I did, yeah, and loads of other amazing people. So after I did the— well, throughout my experience, I was asked to come do speeches, you said, which is where I met you. And I've had some amazing experiences, you know, doing speeches at Breakfast at the Ivy and all the palaces and done speeches in front of celebrities and royals, and that, that's been absolutely amazing because that's, you know, not something that I would have ever thought that I'd be doing. Um, and as a result of that, I've just met so many nice, kind people that have opened up other opportunities for me. Yeah, but also you have this, as I said in my introduction, you have this way about you that draws people to you. You have got that natural gift that you have been exploring, and you were put on the right path really because of Luke in a way, that you became a mum and everything opened up, but you made that choice at the same time. I think it's a mixture of, you know, Luke started all of this. I don't know, I have no idea, and every speech I've ever done for DAV I say I've got absolutely no idea what I would be doing with my life right now if I hadn't had Luke and I hadn't have taken him with my DAV and I hadn't have done the young mums group. Everything I have comes from that. It all stems from those things. And it's, I guess, I just think about the lack of services and resources in the current climate. And I think, how on earth is anybody supposed to achieve what I have achieved? Which is, you know, I've achieved a normal life, you know, just a an average normal life where I don't have to worry too much about money and I have what I need and I'm happy. How is anyone supposed to get to that point with the amount that you have to struggle as a young parent or a single parent or somebody, you know, living in poverty? How are you supposed to get out of that with no resources to help you and no opportunities that, you know, just like Simple Groups or, you know, Legs Up I just, I, I, I managed to— I think this all happened at the right time. It was a very difficult, different political climate. There was money, a lot of money put into education and into getting people into work. Um, for example, when I was on benefits and when I started working, um, there was a government scheme where you got an extra £60 a week on top of your benefits if you stayed in work. For a year. So, I mean, £60 a week was a huge amount of money. That was sort of 60% of my income. So it was, you know, just to be given that, and the idea was that after the year they would stop that payment but that you would be in full-time employment, you'd be established, and you would be able to get pay rises. And that's exactly what happened to me. So I think, you know, there's so many little things, so much support around along the way, so many people that have been involved, but also so many so much government schemes that I was involved in and just happened to be there at the right time, pregnant at the right time, you know, a hot topic. There was a real hot thing about teenage parents and paying for childcare for when you go to work and things like that that just aren't around anymore. Yeah, so we'll come to that in a minute. Just to finalize with the Duke of Edinburgh Award, because, uh, sadly the Duke passed away last year. Yeah. And he was such a big character. Yeah. He went through such a difficult childhood himself and came up with this idea with somebody else, and the name escapes me, but, you know, to create this for young people to climb up. And I went to a number of prisons actually with Prince Edward to look around, and there were a number of prisoners who also said it was the Duke of Edinburgh Award that enabled them to turn their lives around. And I think hit the nail on the head, those small chosen sort of skills that you were able to pass, to master, if you like. So you mastered those skills and you got an award, and then you were able to move on. And I think that's such a wonderful way to actually see life and to be able to engage with life, whether you're doing the Duke of Edinburgh Award or or not, just to say to yourself, if you have to self-manage, right, let's master this skill, and once I've done that, I'll do that skill. Because a lot of people are suffering, in my opinion, whether it's in business or whatever, that they see the big picture but don't know how to get there. And it's those small steps that you're talking about and skills that enabled you to move on to where you are today. Now, you are doing another degree at the moment, so you've already got one degree And you're now in the— you've got 2 more children, so let's talk about the degree and your children. Okay, so I've been working in youth offending for the past few years since I moved to Peterborough, and which I absolutely love, but then the opportunity came out while I was on maternity leave to apply for an apprenticeship to become a qualified social worker. So I've obviously always been interested in things in this sector and especially working with teenagers. But I've kind of got to the point in my career in youth offending that I couldn't have gone any higher to be a manager or I couldn't have been paid anymore unless I was a qualified social worker or an equivalent degree like a probation worker, things like that. So I decided to go ahead and apply for the apprenticeship and got it. So that's what I've been doing since September. Is going back to uni one day a week, working full-time four days a week. Ah, and your subject, have you decided on your dissertation this time? So I don't actually have to do a dissertation, which I'm pretty pleased about. Yeah, I bet. So it's because it's so much of it is on-the-job learning. So I've got to do a few assessments as you go along and a lot of evidencing and a lot of reflections, a lot of things where my manager or my practice educators have got to sign off that I can do certain things, but no dissertation. Oh good, so they give you certain criteria that you've got to meet? Yes, exactly, yeah, the social work standards. So as long as I've kind of ticked off that and shown that I've met all of those by the end of the 3 years, I've got to do a couple of placements Yeah, so I'll qualify in under 3 years. Okay, so what's the difference? You look at— what's the work that you do with young offenders, and what will be the difference to your social work? What will be the different work that you do? It's a good question. I don't know if I fully know the answer yet. I'm kind of learning so much on a daily basis about children's services and the differences. I think working with teenagers has been just a sort of natural skill of mine because I very much remember being a teenager and I have a teenager and, um, and that's where all of my training— and I've worked since I was 17 with teenagers, so all of my practice wisdom is with teenagers. Um, so moving to children's services and focusing more on families and focusing more on, you know, what parents can do to try and improve children's behaviour and what they can do to better meet the needs of a child has been really interesting. And I'm, yeah, still very much at the beginning of learning what that all means and definitely not decided where I will go in the long run and where that qualification will take me in terms of a career. So how old are your other two children? And you're with a new partner? Yes, so I'm with— well, new, but I've been with him for 9 years, I think. Yeah, not quite so new. Married 5 years, I think, and we've got a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old. Ah, how lovely. And you're juggling all these and able to study. How do you do that? Tell us about your systems that you have in place before I go into the detail of young people? My current system is just to completely wing it and hope for the best. I recognise that system. I'm planning to put a system in place. I do have one system which I love, which is I joined the gym, a really expensive posh gym that I absolutely love, and I go there very regularly to study and to work out and go swimming and go in the sauna and things like that. So that's like my way of getting through it all, is I get to have time away from the kids, which I really like. I'm so sorry to hear that. But yeah, I get to go to the gym and have time to myself and study, get work done. So Emily, who looks after the children when you're doing that? Either Luke, he's quite good at because he's now 16. Yeah, um, or, um, during— so just when the pandemic started, so about May 2020, my mum moved in with me and my husband, um, to help basically, because I was working from home, pregnant, um, with a 2-year-old, which was the hardest thing I've ever done in my whole life. You imagine? My goodness. Yeah, so mum moved from London and moved in with us, and we built her an annex in the garden. Ah, lovely. Yeah, so it's kind of gone back to— I mean, I just, I just don't know how people bring up children without help. And, you know, my help's always been my mum, so without that, I don't know how. Yeah, what's wonderful is you've got a trusted help with the mum. Yeah, you don't have to, you know, 90% of the time. I know there are some bad mothers out there. Unhelpful or can't be there, or, you know, there's so many reasons why some people don't engage with their parents for various reasons. But when you've got mum, you don't have to speak, do you? You know you can trust your mother with your children. Yes, she knows she's better at sticking to their routine than I am, so sometimes that's good. And your partner is okay with all that? Oh, definitely. I mean, my mum is so unintrusive And we've also been brought up and always been around, you know, our way of being is by saying what you want and saying when you don't want something, saying when you do want something. So we're all very direct. We, you know, if we're annoyed, we'll say we're annoyed. If we don't want someone around us, we would just say, I actually just need some space right now. You know, I'm going to go to my room. So we're very good at saying, you know, if I say to Mum, can you help me with the kids? She will say no. If she doesn't want to. So we're all very good at saying what we want and saying what we think. And your father? I haven't asked you about him. Dad lives in a field in Norfolk. He lives in sort of a sustainable community with a group of friends and is living the dream, growing vegetables and being— Oh wow! Yeah. So not too far. So, um, here you are, you've worked that out, and I totally agree with you. The family being split up is the worst thing that could happen. Yeah, it was a time actually, it changed in the '70s. I couldn't quite work it out. I also was brought up on a council estate, and my parents lived— there were 6 of us in one room actually when I was born in Paddington. They were refugees, and so 6 of us had to all live and breathe and eat in one room for a number of years. And when we moved to a council house in South Oxy, just outside Watford, it was like the castle. But, um, we all knew each other on the council estate. We were the only Polish people there. But in the '70s, the rules were changed, because up until that point, if you had a family, you could all live close by to each other. You could say, oh, I want my family to live on this council estate with me, and then it changed, and I think that's a bit of a disaster. Yeah, I agree. And I moved to— I got my first permanent council place, it was again an hour away from family but a lot easier to get to, in Surrey Quays, and it was a block of flats that had been commissioned by Kensington and Chelsea, so everyone that moved in there— we all moved in on the same day— and we were all from Kensington and Chelsea, so we all had some kind of connection with each other. And no one knew each other, but we all kind of knew of each other in some way. And there was loads of young mums, and they just kind of shoved us together, and it just worked so well. We just all made best friends. We all helped each other with the kids. We, you know, did, um, shared school runs. You know, we all had each other's children when the other ones were working, and it was just incredible. And that community, and that— and I think you need somebody to pull that together, and you need somebody to kind of say, you guys should help each other. Yeah. And in a way, you're going to be in the most perfect position to do that and have an influence, perhaps. And— but you are very influential, and I think after this next step, you'll begin to see how influential you are. But can I come back to youth offending? And I think it's such a powerful area to be working in. What are the problems nowadays with young people that you've encountered? I think one of the main problems is around county lines and, you know, drug dealing and people being— children being exploited. Okay, can you go into that? Give us a bit more detail because you're in the thick of it. Yeah, so we're all, you know, sometimes we can see it and I hear about it, you know, or if I'm doing therapy with a young person, but you don't really get into it as much as you have. So can you give us more detail around that? Yeah, sure. So, I mean, so many of the cases that we work on, and I know in London it's, it's way worse than it is up here, are just around, you know, young boys that have been been forced to carry drugs. You know, it starts off as something really innocent, starts off as people saying, "Oh, come and, you know, chill with us on the weekend," or, "Oh, come here and we'll buy you some drink." So it all starts off playing on young people's sort of vulnerabilities and the fact that they want to fit in, or the fact that maybe their parents don't have a huge amount of money to get them designer clothes or get give them the lifestyle that they would like. So it all looks really glamorous and people get sucked in, and then they get, you know, threatened and forced to stay. Okay, so that early stage is being sucked in. Can the parents do anything? Who can do something to change that, that moment? I think it's— I mean, I think it comes down to things like local services in terms of youth clubs and things like that. The closures of all these youth clubs means that young people don't have safe places congregate. And so they look for community in other ways, they look for things to give them a thrill in other ways. And there needs to be excitement for young people, there has to be opportunities for them to positively engage in the community. And in terms of parents, it, you know, it can be really boring sitting at home with your mum and dad. Out, they want to explore. That's the nature of teenage. And it's really difficult for parents to find, you know, a balance between letting them out and to enjoy their, you know, enjoy freedoms and make decisions, and making, and, you know, making sure that they're safe. It's pretty impossible. And that's a kind of a battle that a lot of the parents we work with are facing. And I think all, you know, the main One of the things that we suggest is for them to create a safe space at home, create a space where they can, you know, their children can speak to them if they're concerned. There's so much of the issue is around young people owing other young people money, and that's, it's really difficult because often these children are from families that they don't have any money. So, you know, if you're from a really well-off family, you can pay people's debts. You can say, right, you know, if you need £200, we'll pay it off. Off. That £200 to these young people is, you know, and then that escalates. It goes up to £3,000, £4,000, £5,000 before you know it. Now let's, let's put this into perspective. This did not exist in the same way as it does today. This is really, as you use that term, it has escalated beyond belief, hasn't it? Yeah, it's so common now. So common, and people know and they're tapping into it. How did they know? How do they get this? Who starts it all off? Who benefits mostly from this? Um, adult males. Yeah, yeah, they're running businesses, you know, like, like you would run a multi-million pound organization. That it's just another, it's just another business, you know. They have complete ways of working there. They know exactly what works. They have promotions for, for clients who are, um, interested in using crack. You know, they, they send out literally, like, they have marketing strategies on how to get these drugs sold. And, um, I, you know, there's a couple of sessions I've done with young people in the past around transferable skills and the fact that they have been running lines, or they've been at least, you know, in a, in a midpoint in these, um, in this, uh, hierarchy, that they've been managing people, they've been, um, in charge of safety They've been in charge of promotion and marketing, they've been in charge of budgeting, they've been, you know, there's so many skills that these young people have that are transferable to being entrepreneurs, but there's a lack of services that are willing to engage them and help them fulfill that. Okay, but can you just give us an idea, explain the terms running lines and county lines? What does that mean? Just basically running drugs from one place to another. So taking drugs from, say, say, Peterborough to London or something. So that would be running a line between them, and then in London, them giving it to somebody else to sell, or them selling it themselves, and sort of, yeah, being in charge of getting rid of that amount of drugs. So that's been organized, as you say, is very entrepreneurial, and if you transfer those skills, that would make these people brilliant entrepreneurs. I totally agree with you, but this has grown. How, how long has it taken for this to grow? It doesn't sound very long, because if you look at abroad, you know, sort of the drug runners, you know, that's all been there sort of from South America to America, and so on, and obviously it's from Europe over to here, you know, that's quite sophisticated that these things have just developed. Yeah, I don't know the answer to how long and how, you know, quickly it's developed. I know that it is becoming such a common thing that everybody knows it's happening, you know, all young people know somebody that is running, and I think it's become quite normal. And then the people who do get entrenched, it's just becoming increasingly impossible for them to get themselves out of that situation. And do they stay in until they're a lot older, or until they go to prison, or until they die? Because I know people get stabbed. All of those, yeah, all of those things. And I mean, even, even going to prison, that doesn't necessarily wipe the debt that you then owe, you know. If you get caught with all of those drugs or if you get robbed of all of those drugs, that's then your debt to pay back. Ah, you, you have to— even if you're caught and you're taken to prison, you have to pay that back. So that hangs over you forever. Exactly. And so that's how they get, you know, they call it trapping because they get trapped in it and there's no, there's no way out because they can't pay that off. And then so they have to keep working to pay back the money, and then they've got to try and break even, and then you know, it's a disaster. So once people are in it, it's really difficult to get out. And then I think, as, you know, the police are getting better at investigating and better at catching people, then the ante of having to recruit more and more young people is, you know, they're having to recruit so many more young people so that they can be dispensable. Yeah, and you know what's so interesting is you've shown the sort of organization here that is the unspoken organization of what goes on, but it is an organization. And there is an understanding— people have a really sort of negative view of, you know, young Black teenage boys that are drug dealing. It's like, it's not them that are the problem at all, you know. It's not the teenager's fault, it's not young people's fault that this is happening. They're just trying to get by. It's, you know, this is run by sophisticated adults that are the problem. And that— and absolutely, the young people are caught in this, on sort of this hidden mesh of traps. Yeah, that they're just caught in. So how can relationships work? How can children grow up like this? We've, we've got a team, um, up here called the Safer Relationships team, and they're doing incredible work to work with people that are involved in County Lines or local dealing to try and build relationships, to try and encourage them to be able to speak out about what's happening and do what's in their power to support those young people to get out. And that's small things like that, that have very small, limited funding that are going to make the difference. But there's just no— and more funding has been announced that it's going to be going ahead, but I think it's not enough. Nothing's ever enough. And, you know, it's— it's— that's almost the hot topic at the moment. But then that takes the view off, for example, children's services. But actually, if you don't support parents to put better boundaries in place and you don't support parents to, to work with their with their teenage children and, and do a really good job raising their self-esteem, then those are the kids that are likely to be recruited when they're older. So the money needs to be spread out for everything. Yeah, so that's interesting because we haven't got a great deal of time left, but parents— it's, for example, with you, you— people might say that you have this wonderful ability, which you do, to communicate, and I've always known that, and we've you've always talked about it, and that's fabulous that you can communicate. It's not so much self-esteem as it is being able to speak out. Do you think your parents gave you that ability when you were younger? Yeah, definitely. That was ingrained in their parenting, and, and that was a conscious decision for them. So they, you know, they knew from when they were pregnant with us that they wanted to parent in a way that would, um, make us independent adults. And I think they probably regretted that at times. I'm sure. Speaking out and being outspoken. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that didn't do them any favors when I was like 14. Yeah, but you'll have the same. It all comes back, Emily. Yeah, but no, it's going to be fun. Our own kids are always fun and, uh, amazing people. So, um, what would you like to see? What would you like to see implemented or changed? There must be a change of organization that could happen. Happen, that you now with all your experience, your own personal experience and what you've seen, what would you like to see change? I think, I mean, I'd like to see a lot of change. I think, I personally think that the right way to go about it would be to stop emphasising sort of local government funding and start putting pressure on businesses to support local communities. I think that's realistic. I think that, you know, there should be some kind of levy, there should be some kind of expectation for local businesses to support towns and cities. Okay, let's say, because I'm sorry to rush you, but imagine the businesses did that, what would one thing that you would change that would be major? Just individualised support for you know, all of the marginalized groups. Okay, one-to-one, so that they're really looked at individually and given that real understanding. It's much like PBL, isn't it? Yeah, given what they need to achieve to get out of this, you know, this trap. And, you know, I cannot tell you how much more time I would love to have had to talk to you, Emily Stevens. You are such a joy to reconnect with, and this has been an amazingly informative and actually very, very interesting and joyful discussion. Emily Stevens, thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Maria Kempinska, on Your Mind Matters. Thank you for having me.