Mother’s Hour With Carolyn Van Beers – Post Natal Depression Uncovered

Hello and welcome to Mother's Hour with me, Carolyn Van Beers on women's radio station. Well, this show may only be a few weeks young, but mums, you have spoken. And today's show is especially for all you wonderful mums out there who've been in touch. It all stems back to the reaction we got from our very first ever Mothers hour show. We taught mum's mental health after a survey by Emma's diary revealed that for every two mums out there, one will suffer with depression and anxiety. It was a very revealing show and boy, did we hit a chord with you. I was literally inundated with emails and responses to the show and I want to thank each one of you who took the time to write in to me with your very touching stories. After all, that's what Mother's Hour is all about. And if you haven't actually heard that show yet, you can listen to the podcast. It's available on the website womensradiostation.com. just click on my picture. So, yes, many of you who wrote in, the main point of interest was postnatal depression and it did generate so many questions. So today this show is called Postnatal Depression Uncovered. We're really going to get stuck into this topic and hopefully answer many of those questions that you asked in your emails. In the latter part of the show I'm going to be taking a look at the non pharmaceutical ways of treating postnatal depression, looking at the new discovery of feel good chemicals, natural highs that can help with postnatal depression and stepping into the world of self help treatments. To help me with this, I will be joined by the fabulous Lucy Da Silva, a psychotherapist and a mum of a nine month old baby. Lucy is actually suffering with postnatal depression at the moment. But first I want to start the show by talking to a GP whom I'm hoping can explain to me exactly what postnatal depression is really answer your questions and what treatments are out there for postnatal depression today. So welcome to the studio, Dr. Narangela Button, welcome. Thank you so much for taking the time to come into the studio and talk to us. Thanks very much for having me, Carolyn. Lovely. I should probably explain that not only is Narrangela a working gp, she's also a mum to three little ladies, three girls. And I should probably point out that we do actually know each other. We do. Our kids go to the same school. They do indeed. So yes, I want to talk to you as a GP now and basically ask you what Exactly. Is postnatal depression. So postnatal depression is a type of depression that many parents can experience after childbirth. Usually kicks in after about one month, but it can occur anytime up to a year after childbirth. Wow. And how common is it? It's extremely common. So actually I mentioned it affects parents. I know this is women's radio and we'll mainly be talking about mums, but it can affect fathers, it can affect partners. So I think that's really, really important that we acknowledge that as well. But actually it can aff. 1 in 5 women, 1 in 10 women. So it's such a common, common condition. Well, that's very comforting to know that you're not on your own, because a lot of it can feel very, very lonely, which we'll come to later on. Why do some people get postnatal depression and why do other people not? The causes aren't really completely clear, but we do know there are so many factors that come into play. If there's a history of mental health problems, either before pregnancy or during pregnancy, that increases your risks quite substantially. So I'm talking about previous depression, anxiety, panic disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, post traumatic stress, any of those conditions will increase your risk of postnatal depression. So actually, it's really important that if you are pregnant and you have had any of those conditions, that you do speak to someone about it, because then you can have a closer eye kept on you during pregnancy and after birth as well. By someone, who do you mean? Your doctor or your doctor? Your midwife as well. You'll be seeing your midwife on a very regular basis during pregnancy and you can keep in touch with your midwife as well. And your doctor should be aware as well of the conditions that you have been suffering from and also will keep a close eye on you as well. A lot of people who have had mental health in the past, I mean, I know we are opening up much more these days than we ever had before, but. But because of the stigma, because you don't want to look like a bad mum, because you don't, you might. And you're pregnant and you want to create a really good impression, you might be too scared to say that to. What would you say to those women? There's absolutely no reason to be scared of approaching either your midwife or your gp. You know, we're trained to recognize the signs. We're trained, we're there to help you and we can access all the help that you need. So there really isn't any reason to Be frightened. And please, I would advise anyone, if you have any concerns, even if you know, you're just a little bit worried about it, do come and see us. So it's not our fault there's nothing we've done. Absolutely not. You know, if we didn't get out enough in the first month, you know, it's nothing to do with that. Not at all. Not at all. There are so many causes. Like I mentioned about previous mental health issues, there are also other social factors. If you have little or no support from family or friends, you may not have a great relationship with your partner. You may have had a really traumatic birth experience. I think we all have expectations of having a beautiful labour and we have our birth plan and everything else, but quite often in reality that doesn't come out. And sometimes when reality and expectations aren't quite the same, that can also trigger off postnatal depression. So you got baby back at home and you're having a bad day. How do we recognise that this could be postnatal depression? Because from everything I've read, early detection is absolutely key, isn't it? You're absolutely right. It can be tricky because a lot of the symptoms as new parents are the same as the symptoms of postnatal depression. And those I'm talking about the extreme tiredness, the lack of energy, the difficulty sleeping. I think all of us as new mums can relate to all of those symptoms, but they are also symptoms of postnatal depression. Depression. But if you have any persistent feelings of just feeling really sad, not having difficulty concentrating, you can't make decisions. You may be wanting to withdraw from your friends. At a time where you want to see your friends, you see your family, you want your family to be involved, you might want to withdraw from them and isolate yourself. In extreme circumstances, you can have really dark thoughts, like wanting to harm yourself. You may have thoughts of harming your baby as well. And those are very extreme circumstances. And in those circumstances you really must seek help straight away. In very severe cases, and this is a different condition altogether, you have a condition called postpartum psychosis. And in that condition you may have really strange thoughts coming into your head, thoughts that really don't make any sense at all. Give me some examples. So you might have thoughts about your partner is someone else, or you might imagine that your baby is actually not your baby. Those are called delusional thinking. You may have hallucinations where you're hearing voices, you're seeing things. That's postpartum psychosis. It's rare but it does happen, and that really requires specialist treatment straight away. So if you have any of those symptoms, you really must seek help. But I'm going back to that thing again that we talked about just a minute ago, which was so many mums are so frightened to not expose themselves, but they're so frightened that people will be wagging a finger at them, judging them and possibly, you know, even taking their baby away. I mean, I've actually got some figures here from Emma's diary who did this original survey on how many mums are suffering with depression. Yeah. And in that, over 80% of mums actually thought they were unable to be helped. They didn't think it was because it's not. They're not bleeding, or because it's not something you can actually grab in your hand, you know, like a typical illness. They kind of think, oh, well, I can't be helped. You know, it's just me being a bad mum. And they're blaming themselves. And so many mums, 90% of mums, felt that they shouldn't go to their GP, that they would be wasting the GP's talent. Now, what would you say to that? That's so not the case at all. Mental illness still does have a massive stigma, which is really unfortunate, but honestly, there is so much help available. Those feelings of guilt are really common. But. But really, you won't be treated badly, you won't be judged, your baby will not be taken away from you. There is so much help that's accessible and it is so important that you get help as soon as possible. Well, let's talk about what kind of help is out there, because you've talked about quite a big range in the postnatal depression kind of spectrum, if you will, from mild to more like having a bad day but not feeling very positive. Two more extreme cases. What would you say are the first steps, if anyone's listening today? Well, you know, it's very, very common for mums, new mums, new parents, to feel a bit down, feel a bit blue, and that's what we call the baby blues, and that's extremely common. I think most parents will experience that, and that's really common for the first two weeks. But actually, if those symptoms persist so. So longer than two weeks. So if you're feeling really sad, really down, I think the key thing is you need to talk to someone. Okay? That's really important. And that might be a friend, it might be a member of family, it might be your mum, it might be your sister. Talk to someone and Talk about how you're feeling and then it is really important that you come and see your health visitor or your GP to access help. And if you're ringing up, the doctors say, and you're like it says in the recording message, if it's urgent, press this. And is it urgent? I mean, what do we press in that section? There are obviously different degrees and it really depends on how you're feeling. But if you really feel that you want to speak to someone quite quickly, then of course I don't think any GP will mind if you use an urgent appointment. Of course there's pressures on the system, but postnatal depression can be really quite severe. So it is really important that you access help straight away. Right, okay. Well, we're going to come back in a few minutes and talk a little bit more about exactly what treatments are offered on the nhs, what your GP will do for you. And we're going to be talking later on in the show about natural highs, self help therapies and non pharmaceutical approaches to your mental health. This is Mother's Hour with me, Carolyn Van Beers. If you do want to get in contact with any of the subjects that we're talking about here on the radio station, it's carolyn and@womensradiostation.com we'll be back in a few minutes after these messages. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on Women's Radio station. 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We're talking to GP Naranjala Button. Thank you again for joining us. And we were just talking about what is postnatal depression and the symptoms to look for. Now can we talk treatment? So if I was to make an appointment and come and see a gp, what treatments do the NHS recommend? Well, firstly, there are things you can do yourself, but I think we may touch on that later. But initially we're talking about medication. There are antidepressants that you can take, especially if you're breastfeeding as well, that's safe to take when you're breastfeeding. So antidepressant therapy will definitely be an option for you. If your Depression is felt to need it. Yes. So that's what I was going to ask you. Obviously there's medication, but as a doctor, when do you. What. How extreme is the postnatal depression before you prescribe? Every case is different, so it really depends on the patient. So it really depends on how severe the depression is, their previous history. Have they had depression before, have they responded well to medication before? So it really is a case by case basis. Just because you go to your GP doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be put on medication, because there's other options available. But medication is just one treatment option and it can be taken safely after delivery. And when you're breastfeeding as well, presumably from a doctor's point of view, you will look at the patient and think, are they going to do self help or am I better to prescribe this? Because that's going to be a safer way for them to get. Absolutely, absolutely. So you've all seen got talking therapies as well, and not everyone is keen to do that. Not every person is keen to talk to someone else. They might be a bit closed off and might just come in and they want their prescription. You have to gauge every situation as it comes, basically. So I'm going to stay with medicating at the moment. What are the antidepressants that you give to a patient who has postnatal depression? So the main group of medications are the SSRIs, so that's the commonest group of medications. We don't just use it in postnatal depression, they're commonly used in depression, commonly used in anxiety, panic disorder, sort of all those conditions. So they're the commonest group of medications. And what do they do? So basically they do work on the hormones that are released in the brain, but they do have their side effects as well. And that's just something that it's really, really important that we explain to our patients about, because those side effects are very common and usually they wear off after a couple of weeks or so. So you might just have some nausea, some agitation, which sounds a bit odd. We're giving it to you for anxiety and everything else. But sometimes you can feel a bit more anxious, restless, a bit agitated as well. You might get a bit of dry mouth, a bit of dizziness as well. But most of those side effects do tend to wear off after a couple of weeks. And how do patients feel? What's the difference? You know, how do they feel? Because some people say they feel quite numb and other people say best Thing ever. I think a lot of patients say that they just feel that their anxiety lifts calm. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's really important to realise that these medications are not addictive medications. I think that is, you know, one of the issues that people feel that they're worried about. They're not addictive medications. You can easily come off them. With help and support, we can wean you off them. Some patients might need to be on them for a few months, some patients might need to be on them for a year. In some circumstances it might be a bit longer, but it's not something that you necessarily need to take for life. Yeah. So usually within the year. And would you say six months? It's difficult to put a time span on it. Every case is different. I mean, I would say it will take months for things to get better, if not a bit longer, but it may take a few months. But postnatal depression in most cases will get better. And what is the success rate with medicating for postnatal depression? It is good. It's good. And especially when you use it with other therapies as well. Absolutely. You've got a very, very good chance of making a full recovery. That's brilliant. And that's so good to know, because in the scheme of things, six months, a year, to get yourself fully better and to start enjoying motherhood again is just so. Absolutely. It's nothing in the scheme of things. So that's medication. If you were to recommend to a patient that they take medication and they say no, what do you do then? There are other therapies available, so they might be interested in one of the talking therapies. And the main one we use for postnatal depression is cognitive behavioural therapy. So we would offer that as well and we would refer them to a therapist for that. Describe exactly what that is. So cognitive behavioural therapy, it's a type of talking therapy that can help manage your problems by basically changing your negative thinking. So it focuses on your current problems rather than focusing on things that may have happened in your past. And that suits a lot of people because a lot of people may not want to drag up things that have happened in their childhood and everything else. So cognitive behavioural therapy looks at your problems, analyses your problems and then looks at how your negative thinking affects what is going on in your life. So somebody comes to the gp, they've got postnatal depression. Do you then refer them to a specialist? Presumably we would refer them for psychological therapy, yes. And then what happens is they will be seen and triaged by a cognitive behavioural therapist and their treatment options are offered to them. So you have lots of treatment options. It might be a one to one session, it might be a group session, it might be telephone cognitive behavioural therapy as well. Depending on what they think you need. According to. Depending on what you need, but also resources as well. So I know that the waiting list for cognitive behavioural therapy in most parts of the country are horrendously long. So actually one to one therapy isn't always a quick option. Sometimes group therapy, which a lot of people say, well, I'm not so keen about talking about things in a group but actually there is evidence that people that do have CBT in a group setting actually do better than those in a one to one setting because you've got other people to bounce ideas off. So actually if you're in a situation where you're offered group C CBT and it's going to be quicker than one to one, I would actually advise. Take it, take, take that, take that. I had no idea that that was even an option. And you would normally go, no, I'm not opening up in front of everybody. But that's so interesting that in actual fact, probably when you get there it's really cathartic. It's really like, oh, we're all going through it. Yeah. You know, it's like a big group. It's almost like, you know, social life. Absolutely. And it's. CBT is very structured as well. So there are actually. You can actually do it yourself. So there are lots of books that are available, there's apps that are available as well. Like I mentioned, telephone, cbt. So because it is so structured, it is possible to do actually work on it yourself. Well, that's very interesting. Now with talking therapies, obviously, is it six weeks? Is it, you know, okay, let's do the waiting time. How long are we kind of looking to wait? It varies from different parts of the country. You can be waiting six months, sometimes even longer. Right. For one to one. Okay. One to one. Yeah. So yeah. So definitely go for the, the group therapies. Now with the. How long would you say get this therapy for? Is it again, it varies. Some places will offer you six sessions, some places it's longer. So it depends on the area. Usually it's 6 to 10, sometimes a few more 6 to 10 sessions would probably be the norm. So it looks like there's quite a lot on offer. And what other. Are there any of the psychological therapies that are out there? So you would talk about counselling as well, which is when you are actually talking about what's happened to in your past, your relationships, everything else, just getting everything else out in the open again. It doesn't suit everyone, but that isn't available as well. And some GP practices might have an in house counsellor where you can be seen relatively quickly. Ah, see, that's great to know. What else do the NHS recommend for postnatal depression? So there's lots of things that you can do yourself. So self help talking. It's so, so important to talk to friends, talk to family about how you're feeling, talk to other mums as well. When I had my eldest 13 years ago, I didn't know any mums in the local area and I contacted the NCT National Childbirth Trust and they put me in touch with other mums in the area who had babies of similar ages. And we used to meet on a once a week basis. We used to meet for a coffee, have a giggle. We became really good friends, we'd swap stories, have our kids birthday parties together. And even now, 13 years down the line, those women are still a really important part of my life and they definitely got me through what was quite a difficult, challenging time. So just reach out to other mums because we're all in the same boat. Yeah. And also go to the little baby clubs that are on because again. Absolutely. Yes. You might see her in the mum, her life might look perfect. But she's probably going through what you're going through, isn't she? Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. And the other thing is just accepting help. If your mother in law wants to come over and do your washing and cooking for you. Yes. Please just grab that opportunity, grab that help when you can. What other self help? I mean, we're going to talk later on in the show, especially to Lucy, about self help therapies. What else did the NHS recommend? So we would always say having a healthy balanced diet will help reduce your risk of developing postnatal depression, but also reducing your symptoms. There isn't anything specific in your diet that has been definitely shown to help, but we do think that a healthy balanced diet will help. We do know exercise is a big thing, so actually doing some form of regular exercise as well as being good for your physical fitness will improve your symptoms of postnatal depression. Wow. And lastly, if you have got postnatal depression and you're looking online, that can be dangerous, but it also can be quite good. Do you have any recommendations of, say, websites that someone could go to. Yes. So the NCT National Childbirth Trust is a really good source of information. The Apni association for Postnatal Illness have a live chat option. They do 10 till 2. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Any others that you would We've got the Pre and Postnatal Depression Advice and Support pandas and they also have a helpline as well. And they also do a fantastic podcast as well and I'll give you some details of that in a little while. Okay, so we're going to go to some more small messages right now, but when we come back we are going to be looking at natural highs and ways you can self help for postnatal depression. Welcome to the Women's Radio Station Supporting women's well being Women's Radio Station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. 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Get in touch with me@empowerandenrich.org and let's change your future together. Hi, I'm Carolyn Van Beers. Please join me for a brand new show here on women's radio station. It's Mother's Hour. If, like me, you're a mum juggling far too many balls and dropping most of them, this is definitely the show for you. We'll examine the highs and lows of motherhood and make sure you laugh out loud as we take on this challenging role together. With spoonfuls of advice, incredible stories. It will be refreshing, honest and funny. Look at being a mum. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help. Visit turntous.org.uk welcome to the Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station can give voice to your brand. With a wide range of sponsorship opportunities, including individual programmes, we can tailor your experience for you. For more information on how you can sponsor a show, go to womensradiostation.com Women's radio stations supporting women's well being welcome back to Mother's Hour here on Women's Radio Station. With me, Carolyn Van Beers. Joining me in the studio today is GP naranjellibutton and also Lucia Dissolva. So this part we're going to be having a look at a definite shift to non pharmaceutical ways of treating common mental health conditions such as postnatal depression. And we're going to be looking at the fact that a lot of these self health treatments are actually being recognised by the medical profession. Narindala was talking earlier about the fact that the NHS do actually prescribe self help therapies as one of the ways that you can really make yourself feel better. And the thing about these is you can do it today, you can do it immediately, you don't have to wait. Shortly we'll be talking to Lucy, who is a psychotherapist by trade, but she's also a mum currently suffering from postnatal depression. She's obviously a big advocate of talking therapists and will be giving us her top three self help therapies in just a short while. But I thought I'd kick this section off with my personal experience of postnatal depression and how I used a self help therapy that really did help me enormously. I had triplets and the doctors did warn me at the time that I might get quite bad postnatal depression. It's very common with multiples and the hormones might come in very, very quickly and I should be quite, you know, mindful of that and boy did it. Okay. So I was expressing my milk. I was about two months, month and a half, two months in. And I was in my bedroom and we have a little Victorian fireplace and I looked into this fireplace and this dark feeling came over me. It was so powerful and I just felt so. Oh, down. A feeling I'd never had before. I couldn't see any light at the end at all. I kept trying to think of happy thoughts. Nothing felt happy. I felt really, really sad. And I walked downstairs after I finished expressing and I had, fortunately, a maternity nurse who was just happening to be holding all three babies in one arm as I was coming down the stairs and I just said, I feel really dreadful. And she looked at me and she went, I think I know what's going on here. And she put the babies down and she came back and she said, okay, this is what you're gonna do. I think you might have the beginnings of postnatal depression. You're gonna go out, take your son to his play date. I had a four year old and you're not gonna come home. You're gonna drive around in the car and you're gonna sing to every song that comes on the radio or put your favorite CD in and don't come back for an hour. I'm like, oh, so strict. But I was feeling it's never gonna help me. I was feeling so, so sad. I thought, it's never gonna help me. Anyway, I did it and a couple of great tunes did come on the radio and I did sing and I did feel a little bit lighter. I got back and said, how are you feeling? I said, yeah, a bit better. She said, okay, I'm going out in the, with the babies. I'm gonna have a little walk around in the pram. You're going up to the shower and you're going to do the same thing. Sing, sing, sing, sing, sing. And I did. I was singing my heart out in the shower. And I can actually tell you, I remember feeling when I got out the shower a bit better. And it was remarkable. I was like, I do feel a bit better. And afterwards we talked about that and she said, you know, in her experience being a maternity nurse for 20 odd years, she really did find that if she could recognise the onset of, you know, these feelings, which is hard when it isn't as pronounced as mine, I was lucky because mine came in all in one surge. So I really recognized I was feeling bad, so could do it immediately. But I think, you know, that singing that we did that week really well, it definitely, definitely helped me. And since then. So that was about six years ago, Trust me, I'm a Doctor is a TV show which performed an experiment and that has proved that singing can release natural highs. Very exciting stuff. So they took nine volunteers. Okay. And they wanted to Test whether singing and dancing released natural highs, which are called, by the way, endocannabinoids. I think I'm pronouncing that right. Is that right? Ni. That's correct. These are chemicals and they are. They've only discovered them quite recently. Which are feel good chemicals that come into your blood system after you've done exercise. And in this case, as we'll find out in a minute, singing and dancing. So the experiment was nine volunteers, four different days, four different activities. Singing, dancing, cycling, and a controlled activity designed to have no effect, in this case, which was reading boiler and dishwasher manuals. They did each activity for 30 minutes in the same room at the same time every day. They tested their blood before and after each activity to see if there was any change in the release of these feel good chemicals. And the results. Very interesting. So. So the controlled activity, reading the boiler and dishwasher manuals had almost no effect, very little increase in the endocannabinoid levels. And actually put the nine volunteers in a worse mood because they actually filled out a questionnaire afterwards and said how their mood was cycling well, that on average the group's natural highs levels in their blood increased by 19%. And the questionnaires said they didn't report much of a mood increase. Minimal dancing, that went up by 21%. And this time it was accompanied by an improvement in the group's mood. But right at the top of the list is singing. This showed the biggest increase in the endocannabinoid levels of 42%, double that of dancing and cycling. And it was also linked with a great mood improvement. So there you go. Singing is, you know, designed to improve your mood or actually improve your mood. I'll come to the doctor now. Could you ever imagine prescribing singing? I think it's just such a fantastic idea. And actually there is clinical evidence. So there was a trial that was done and it was published a couple of years ago now, I think, which showed that women who sang with their babies in a baby group actually then are symptoms of postnatal depression. They recovered quicker than those that didn't go to a baby group and sing. So, you know, singing with your baby has definitely been shown to reduce your symptoms of postnatal depression. Wow. See? Who knew? Now coming to Lucy. Welcome to the show, Lucy. Hi, Carolyn. Hi. Last going to get a chance to speak. Yay. So have you had any experience with singing and has it brought any joy to your life? Yeah, well, I mean, pre baby and post baby as well. So I'm actually a trained singer, so I have been singing myself for years, since I was really young. So I know the benefits of singing on my own in front of people and how it can affect me and how it can affect others. When it comes to having my. My baby, I. I mean, it took me a while to recognize that I had postnatal depression and ask for help, but singing was one of the very first things that I did with my baby. And that was. I think it's because I had a past of singing myself, but I'd. I'd looked forward to having a baby for so long so I could sing to her. And it's a really good bonding experience as well, you know, to have with the baby. And also, you know, like, the doctor said that, you know, going to the baby groups and singing in the baby groups, you know, and having that community feel with other mothers as well was something that I did as well. And so singing has also been a part of my journey as well. Definitely, yeah. So, mums, you've heard it there first. I'm going to recommend. I think we all will. As soon as you finish listening to this fabulous show, go online, look up your local choirs, get with a choir because they have to take you. And it doesn't matter how good you are at singing, it will get you out the house, it will get you meeting other mums, and it will make you feel better, as we just heard, with these lovely natural highs that are there. And I'm also going to recommend that today you make a playlist. That playlist has got to include every song that just makes you go Mamma Mia. I'm gonna recommend abba, George Ezra. Great, great for singing along to All My Children. Do that as well. George Michael. How about you, Lucy? Have you got any songs that you belt it out to? Definitely, yeah. There's one that's come to me mind that is. You know, when you think about childbirth and having a baby, there's the plethora of massive emotions. Bohemian Rhapsody is the most amazing song to put on and sing because it's like six or seven minutes long and it's all different types of music. And one. One song that. That was my go to. Big range. Big range going on there. Yeah. And you can also do the microphone with that one, can't, you know? Or the air guitar. Yeah, guitar. So let's go to the doctor. But who's also a mum. Oh, I'm loving a bit of Sia Chandelier at the moment. I'm driving my kids insane. Just Playing that over and over again. It's such an anthem but I just love it and I just sing it at the top of my voice. Do you do any singing? I actually used to belong to the choir in the village. Yes. And it was great for a feel good factor. Absolutely. Definitely recommend it. The choirs are fantastic. They make you smile as well. So singing, there's your first one. Very similar because it releases these natural highs is exercise. So that's our second self help therapy that all three of us, we were discussing before the show is very, very important if not only to get your body back into, you know, pre baby but also exercise can really, really release those natural habits. Highs that have been shown to really improve mood. We're going to come back in a few moments but do you have an exercise regime that you follow? Yeah, I do, Carolyn. Yeah, so before I had my baby I used to do CrossFit which is a combination of lots of different types of exercises. And you can, you can train before when you're during pregnancy, obviously, obviously safe, safely and then post pregnancy, you know I went back and. But what I did initially was walking and running. Okay, well we're going to come back and talk about a few more of the possible exercises that you can take up even if you've had an operation and you had a C section. Lots of exercises that we recommend here. We're going to go to a short, short, short break now but we will be back with more self help therapy for your postnatal depression. Welcome to Women's radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on women's radio station. Hello and welcome to future classic Women awards with me Stefania Passamonte on women's radio station. 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We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@media mattersforwomen.org you're listening to Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter @WomensRadio station. That's WomensRadiostn or Facebook Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programmes. Welcome back to Mother's Hour with me, Carolyn Van Beers here on Women's Radio Station. We are right in the middle of talking about natural highs and self help for postnatal depression. We touched on singing, which releases these natural highs into your blood. We're now talking about exercise again. It releases these endocannabinoids. I'm getting really good at saying that. So impressive. Which are these feel good chemicals, these natural highs that are released into your blood after you've done exercise. Lucy, you were just telling us about your exercise ratio, which sounds quite extreme. It can be. I mean, I did it before. You're talking about pulling weights, aren't you? Yeah. Well, that's a Combo. It's a combination of lots of different things, but resistant weightlifting. I mean it sounds crazy but actually it's so, so good for the body. And that doesn't have to be really heavy weights. For me it was just light to start with and then obviously coming back post baby as well, you know, it can't be too heavy. So. But that, that's what I did, that's what I went back into and that's what I did also up until a certain point when I was pregnant as well. Also I did a lot of walking, I did some running. But there are also worth mentioning there are gyms that have creches that. Yes, I was going to say how do you do that with a baby? Yeah, so. Well, I mean the gym that I go to, it's a very family orientated gym and, and you can take your baby with you to the gym. A lot of CrossFit boxes are very family orientated. I can't talk for all of them. But my gym that I go to, they allow me to bring my baby with me. I'm so lucky. But there are gyms around the country that also have creches. So you can bring your baby with you, you can take your baby to the creche. They charge whatever, I don't know how much it is, but it's not a lot of money. And you have that hour to yourself to, to go and do a class and spend time with other women in the class and be baby free for an hour, which is so important, really important. And if you know we've talked about in a previous show a lot about your post baby body weight gain making you feel bad and actually making the postnatal depression even worse because you're not feeling good about yourself. If like our previous guest, you do find the gym is the place for you walk to the gym with your baby and you've done so much exercise that day, you're gonna feel so great. Even if you like me, you had a C section and you're really limited to what you can do. You can definitely walk. It's fresh air, it's good for you. So the doctors in the house, do you do any exercise and what do you find helps you? I do, I run. I started running a few years ago and it started off as just, you know, occasional run here and there. But then I found that it really did help. I haven't suffered from depression or anxiety, but I have the everyday stresses like everyone else. And it really was, I found going out for a run was my me Time. So I then developed it a bit more, started to do a few half marathons. I've run a couple of marathons now. Having those goals really keeps me going and really helps me, and I absolutely love it. Why did you choose running? Because I could just put on my shoes and just go. I knew that for me, going to a gym, childcare, everything else, I would have to think about that. But actually, I'm an early bird. So during the week, I get up, I get out there before my husband goes to work, before the kids are awake and I'm out. And yes, that doesn't suit everyone, but for me, it was really convenient. And it's free. And you're getting the natural highs that we've just been talking about that are all over this show, which we're all loving, whether it's singing or running. Runners High is very common, and for years they didn't really know what it was, and they have now discovered that it is these feel good chemicals that are responsible for these wonderful feelings. And you do feel quite euphoric when you've done your run and this sense of achievement. A few tips. So. So if anyone was to, say, go running or start doing exercise, would there be any tips that you would offer to get them started? Well, you know, you can use the apps that are available, which are brilliant apps. Yes, absolutely. So, you know, if you're worried about. You've never run before, right from the beginning, couch to 5k, go for it, go for it. And you are also saying you listen to music and podcast. I do. I do. Which I don't. Which could be my mistake. I. I find it keeps me going. Sometimes when you're thinking, oh, no, do I really have 20 minutes more to go? Just. Sometimes you can just be taken away by a podcast. Some people like listening to, you know, thinking their own thoughts, which is absolutely fine as well. But I love listening to podcasts and various stories, but also music. Sometimes when I'm having a particularly different, difficult run, I'll put my music and I will just feel like I'm on of top, top of the world. And I think if you're just starting out, go and invest in some really nice running gear, some really nice stuff that you enjoy putting on that you feel okay in. And it, you know, it's looking at you every morning because it needs to be by your bed and it's looking at you every morning. You're like, yeah, I want to put this on. And that is an investment because running is free. Get yourself some good shoes. And like you said, a few good podcasts and things like that. I mean, I'm a really nosy parker. So when I lived in London I used to just love going out and having a little bit of a nosey hello, what am I up to? Da da da. And I would quite enjoy that. And for me, what really helped me with the running was I found it was the way I lost the most weight. It was very good for getting my baby body back, my pre baby body bike. And also once I got my gym kit on, I felt like I'd done the run, it was just getting into my gym kit which is why I now try and do it in the morning. Not always successful, but there are a few good tips that I fit there for you. And like you said, if you are thinking of going to the gym, you know, look up the ones that have questions. Yeah, absolutely. So they, you know, they're gonna be ones there. Right. So we've done singing, we've done exercise. Lucy, you are a psychotherapist. What would be your, what's your big one that you find is a great self help treatment for post examination? So I mean I can speak, speak from a personal perspective and also a professional as well in this. So I'll sort of combine that the both, both of them. I found it actually quite hard recognizing that I had postnatal depression. And Dr. Button said earlier about how people who have had potential mental illnesses before or difficulties, for example, PTSD and addiction, and these are two things that I, I'd suffered with. So I kind of knew that I might be prone to it happening but it took me a while to recognize the sign. And you know, now my baby, she's nine months old and I've only recently been diagnosed with postnatal depression. So there was a part of me that thought, you know, that frightened, you know, to go to the doctors and also thinking, well, because of your past. Because of my past and also the fear that, you know, what are they going to think? Are they going to think that I'm going to start being, you know, drinking loads again and is my baby going to be in danger? And when that's not how it manifested at all for me. Talking about the exercise, how it actually manifested for me was that control around the food and the, you know, hating my body, you know, and having that body dysmorphia come up again. And it's been very, very painful for me to experience that rearing its head again. So I have been referred for psychotherapy treatment which I think is for me, that's the best way. I'm quite good at vocalizing how I feel. Obviously I've learned how to do that. So I'm quite lucky in that I'm going to be able to hopefully come out the other end by doing talking therapy. But what I would say in the initial sense would talk to someone that you trust, your husband or a good friend and usually another mother is a good avenue to go down because they can really understand how you feel and what you're going through. I will always be an advocate for talking therapy. Yeah, definitely. And Sherry. And you know what? When I had the triplets, me and my husband got into quite a tricky stage after the maternity nurse left and we were on our own and all of a sudden it was that blame game. Like, I have changed so many nappies today and you're doing nothing and I'm doing this and we all do the blame game. And if you, you don't talk about that and decide to become a team, you will move further and further away from each other and you become lonely then. And we literally had to sit down because we had three babies and that's a lot of nappies to change and that's a lot of getting out the house. And you know, the fun had to start when we woke up because it wasn't the getting there that, you know, because that might take us all day. And we came up and it's hysterical. We came up with these slogans, One team, one dream. Teamwork makes the dream work. We'd literally say them and then we started to have fun with it and then it became fun because we became a team. And my husband with my first child used to do this thing where he would change a nap and go. And I'm like, will you stop it? And I would just literally go, I'll just change the nappy because I can't bear the noise. Funnily enough, when we had the triplets, the noise stopped because he couldn't, he didn't have enough breath to do it on all three of them. So, yeah, yeah, you just get to know your partner and his little getting out of this, getting out of that. But I cannot recommend enough talking to someone, particularly your partner and becoming a team, because if you're a team, it's fun again and if you're not a team, it really, it's not the same. Gosh, we are hurtling towards the end of the show and I just want to grab a couple more little self help tips off you, Lucy. So we just talked about talking and sharing and becoming a team with your partner. What would be your last one? We've got about a minute left. So what would be your. Well, I had an emergency C section, so I couldn't exercise properly for a while because I was in a lot of pain. I would recommend going onto YouTube and looking up post C section exercises to do. It can just be breathing, but you will feel like you're doing something and with the right breath work, you can really release those. That the word that you used earlier, the endorphins, I'm gonna say, but that really does work. Natural hammers. Yeah, that's easier. Okay, so do you have any. Do you have the name of the. If you just go onto YouTube, just type in post C section exercises and there's so much on there. That's what I did. Absolutely brilliant. And ni, you just talked earlier about if people have got postnatal depression, just to wrap it up, go and see your gp. Absolutely, absolutely. You know, you don't have to feel guilty or anything else. We are there, we're trained and we're there to help you. So don't feel bad, you're not going to be judged. Just come and see us. That's wonderful. Thank you very, very much to my guest today. You've been absolutely amazing. If you've been listening to the show and you've been touched by any of this or you have any friends who you think might be going through postnatal depression, get in touch CarolineWimmynsRadiostation.com Remember, this show will become a podcast so you can recommend people to listen to it after it has gone out. I'm going to give you a couple of websites now that you can go on. The NHS do an absolutely fantastic section on postnatal depression, from symptoms to treatment. Emma's Diary. Also do a really, really good podcast. I'll see you next time. Welcome to the Women's Radio station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station is all about diversity from a opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website, womensradiostation.com for more information. Hi, I'm Liz Van Linden, a UK travel consultant for Hazelmere Travel. People come to me as they want unique experiences and a personalised service. This happens from the moment that they inquire till they come back home. I work with luxury tour operators. You can contact me on 078-254-12112 and Liz spelt L I S hazazelmaertravel.co.uk I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? 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