Hello and a huge warm welcome to a brand new show here on women's radio station. It's Mother's Hour. Yay. Sorry about the voice. I was screaming at sports day on Sunday. But anyway, I'm very excited to bring you this show to all you mums. In fact, before I introduce today's very special guests, I think I better introduce myself and maybe tell you a tinsy bit about my Mother's Hour. So yes, I'm Carolyn, I'm a mum of four, a TV and radio presenter by trade and previously a stand up comedian. Although I don't think I'm very funny since having children. Uh huh. I guess time will tell on this show. Yeah, bear with me girls. So I got pregnant with my first child, either very drunk on my wedding night or at some point during my honeymoon, probably quite drunk, which doesn't bode well because there was a doctor in the house. But yes, nine months later, out popped this little baby boy after a four day labour. Yes, four day labour. And although I was thrilled, I was definitely shell shocked. I kind of, I don't know, I kind of bumbled through the following few months, almost like in a misty fog. I didn't quite know what I was doing and what I was, I was looking for some kind of guiding light I think. But yeah, I kind of settled down a bit, got through and then we tried for a second baby and nothing happened. And I got really, really, really sad and very desperate. I mean, so much so that my husband worked away and I used to drag our little baby boy to wherever he was and drive up, arrive at 11 o' clock at night, say, okay, come on, let's do it and in bid, try and get pregnant. So yeah, it was a sad couple of years but eventually I did get pregnant with a second child and it was triplets. Yikes. I know. So yeah, that was very, very tough, you know, I mean, amazing. And they were all healthy, but it was very, very difficult time. There were days when I really thought I'd just never make it through. Lots of holes I was dipping into all the time going, ah, can I make this, can I do this? But I, I did get a lot of help along the way and through others sharing, I feel like I'm not just surviving but I'm actually enjoying some parts of motherhood now. Well, you know, most of it. So yes, I'll tell you more about some of my hilarious escapades with triplets as we go on through mother's hour, through the weeks. But that's me in A nutshell. But it's that idea of sharing and talking, the one thing that kept me sane that I do want to bring to this show. Mother's Hour. Doesn't matter how many children you've got, I think the feelings and emotions and the highs and lows of being a mum are exactly the same. And we can learn so much from each other. Sharing our stories, however brutal, scary, joyous or funny, it's really important to share. So I guess that's what you can expect from Mother's Hour. Sharing, inspiring and motivating each other. It's going to be a very honest look at motherhood as well. Yep. There's no such thing as super mum, not having any of that. I just want us to talk, to laugh, to cry and to scream together. So the show will be one hour and we'll take a different subject each week and we'll have experts in the field and hopefully a mum who would like to share her story with us. So, yeah, it should be very revealing and exciting. The last part of the show will be a bit of a no holds bar where we just have a funny little delve into the reality of being a mum. Hilarious truths, huge dollops of advice from my guests and top tips on how to make your life just a little bit easier and a little bit less mundane. The mundaneness, wow. Yes. So apart from listening, I want you guys to get involved. This is a show where you, the listener, are just as important as my guests and I want to hear from you. And in fact, if you want to get actually come on the show, please email me. It's CarolineWensRadiostation.com that's Carolyn C A R O L y n@Womensradio station. Tell me about your journey, tell me your story and yeah, let's maybe get you in on the show. Very exciting. So that brings me to today's show and to my two very special guests. We're going to be looking at mental health today. We know it affects one in four people in the uk, so today I want to find out what the situation is with us mums and mental health. New research from Pregnancy and Baby Group Emma's diary has revealed that for every two mums out there, one of you will have had some kind of anxiety or depression or feelings of isolation and loneliness. And that is pretty staggering. So that's what we're going to look at today. How are our fragile minds? How are we getting on? Are you maybe suffering from postnatal depression and you don't know it how are you coping? And what can we do if we're not coping? So, please welcome to the studio Dr. Catherine Hollins. Hello, Dr. Catherine. Hello. Can I just call you Katherine? Please do, yes. Welcome to the show. You are a parent, child and family psychiatrist, is that right? Yes. And psychotherapist. Wow. Okay. And also in the studio, we have Yasmin Camilla, who's a mum who has suffered with mental health and postnatal depression. Is that right? Yeah, that's right, yeah. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Okay, so if I can start maybe with you, Catherine. Looking at this, the findings of Emma's diary in their survey, My Mind and Me. It is quite revealing and quite staggering that so many mums are feeling so fragile. Yes, it is. And I think it's great that Emma's diary is pointing this out with their survey. And it's something that those of us working with women know from speaking with mums and with pregnant women, just how hard it is and how many people can feel anxious or worried or down and yet find it very hard to share and tell people, because of a sense of shame, that they ought to feel better than they do. And to really. To really be able to name it and share it is something that's hard. And I'm so glad that we have this chance today to talk about it and think with women listening about whether they might speak up and share it with somebody. So this is a report that's been done in 2019. Is this something that's happening right now in our lives, or do you think it's always been there, but we haven't talked about it, perhaps? I think there are lots of different strands in there. I think it's always been a big change, hasn't it, becoming a mum? And the transition is huge, personally, in terms of our identity as women, especially if we're moving from maybe working and then having to be completely available to a baby and responsible. That's a massive change for all of us. And then you bring your own history and your own experience of being parented and what that was like, and whether that sets you up in a way that feels good or a bit complicated, or whether you have a traumatic birth. There are many things in the mix that might make it difficult, but I do think we live at a time in the 21st century in. In this country, it's not the same everywhere. We might come onto that. But in this country where there's a lot of pressure, isn't there, around how women should be as a mum? Absolutely. So you Mentioned not talking super mum in this program. And I'm glad you said that because I think we all feel like we are supposed to be super mums and just do everything as if it's very easy. Whereas actually it's relentless. Really hard work being a mum. And you know, we grab moments of joy, don't we? And I guess in my role, it's when people really feel they don't have any joy that I want to try and reach out and say, please share those feelings. So there is something very lonely, I think, about the 21st century right now, isn't there? And if you do look back, say 50, 60, 70 years ago, if you had a baby then your family unit would have been around you, you might have lived on the same street and you had that direct support. Whereas I was in London, my parents were in Lancashire. Yes, I think that's a huge part of it that we have this nuclear family structure mainly, don't we? And we don't have mum near. And the number of times I meet women who haven't got mum nearby. Now, of course sometimes they don't have mum nearby because actually it's not working for them to be near mum or mum isn't alive anymore. But actually in those old situations, yes, we can't be rose tinted about the old days. But having a support network, having people around you in the community where you might leave the baby or leave the kids whilst you go and do the tasks that you need to do, a sense of sharing responsibility. Whereas we're in a situation now where there is a real experience of sole responsibility, isn't there for mums? At the beginning we have this setup of here's a baby and especially with the first child, here's this child that you're learning how to be a mum and they don't speak back, you're having to learn a new language and see what they're trying to say through their body and their needs. You've got all this to learn and a lot of it, you're doing it on your own as a mum, aren't you, in this culture? And so one of the biggest things I'd like to say to people is really think about in many creative ways how you create a support network. If you haven't got any relatives nearby or friends, what could it look like? Who can you do a bit of give and take with so that you create something that feels, feels a bit more like a safety net under you. Holding on to that fact that we did have that years ago in a Different sort of way and we need it. That in a way is my biggest treatment message, if you like. You know, I'm a doctor, psychiatrist, psychotherapist, I'm also an anthropologist. You look at different cultures, you look at different experiences, actually support having people you can do things with. Being accompanied in your experience as a human being really matters. It makes life better. And that is such good advice, especially because my next question was going to be social media. You know, a lot of mums are, instead of reaching out to friends, they're looking on social media and comparing themselves. And surely are you seeing that as a bit of a danger? I am seeing that and I'm seeing that right through the age spectrum. I'm seeing that for mums and for younger and older kids and couples and Instagram, the perfect site of how you look. All of these issues, these things don't often help. One of the experiences I've had is that on working on an app with social media of trying to kind of get hold of peer support, that peer support really matters and we need to hold on to that. Hold that thought. This is great advice. Thank you very much. We are going to go to a very, very short ad break now but please do stay with me where we're going to be talking a little bit more to Dr. Catherine and also having a look at Jasmine Camilla's story. Welcome to Women's radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on Women's radio station. Hello and welcome to future Classic Women awards with me Stefania Passamonte on Women's radio station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's radio station supporting women's well being and we're talking all things autism women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Falguni Desai of Action Coach. Are you a business owner with more than five employees? Do you want to grow your business? I'm a London based business coach who helps small and medium sized businesses to grow and make a profit. 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Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover and mental health advocate and you can listen to my show get booked here at Women's Radio station daily at 5am and 5pm throughout my shows, we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chat to authors, publishers and book enthusiasts, all with a theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch at presenters@womensradiostation.com join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@mediamattersforwomen.org you're listening to women's radio stations supporting women's well being. Women's radio stations creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter. Womensradio station. That's womensradio Stage or Facebook Women's radio station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to Mothers Hour here on Women's Radio Station. I'm joined by Dr. Catherine Hollins and Yasmin Kamila and we are talking mum's mental health. There's been a lot of talk in the press recently about mental health and we want to have a look at your mental health. How are you feeling as a mum? We were just talking earlier, Catherine, about social media, the pressures to be super mum and the fact that that can be really quite damaging and you don't realise how sad and bad you're feeling when you've looked at those perfect pictures. Because no one's life looks like that, does it? No. Exactly. And that actually social media be a real put down, it might make you feel a lot worse about yourself. The way perhaps we can think about using it is for peer support and Emma's diary is part of a wave of sites trying to really think about how to support people, to share with other people what their experience is. But I think at the end of that sharing, it's then to go and meet someone real. You know, text a friend, go and meet someone, join a group. If you're someone who feels you can do that, make it real and face to face. Use social media as a springboard into something else, is what I would say when, as a mum or whether you're a young mum or, you know, you've got toddlers, when do you know you've got a problem or when is it just a bad day? Yes, I think it's a difficult question that. Because the experience of becoming low or sad or anxious comes upon someone in all sorts of different ways. And in a way there's something about how do we listen to ourselves and to what we're feeling and be honest with ourselves. That's perhaps a first step to say, I'm not getting any joy in this. I'm not sleeping, I'm not eating properly, I'm not enjoying my child, I'm feeling like I'm a terrible mum. Maybe even having thoughts that your child would be better off without you, maybe having scary thoughts about your child. These things are all pretty common. But people feel like they're the only one who is having those experiences. If those are your kind of experiences, if they're tipping into feeling like they're taking over what it's like to be you right now, that's when it's really good to reach out to somebody. Emma's Diary have put together a mental health spectrum on their website, which might give you an idea of just asking you a few questions to think about where you might see yourself right now. But I think that would be very helpful. Well, I hope so. And I hope in a way that there's something about not. Not having high expectations of yourself the way that we all do of if you don't feel good, tell someone. You don't have to wait for something awful to happen to you, you don't have to feel terrible. Yeah, none of us have to feel that. And I'm always struck, talking with people, that there's such a feeling that I'll never get better. No one can. Nothing can help. And the research, in fact, that Emma's diary did in the survey shows that so many people don't reach out to us for help because they think, well, what can help? Can anything help? And in actual fact, a lot of women, most women who have postnatal depression do come out the other side. Absolutely, absolutely. So it is to go and get better. You can get better, you can get help. There is help available. It's good to reach out and ask. Pregnancy and postnatally, anxiety and depression are pretty common. And talking treatments can really help. You know, they change our brain, therapy changes our brain, medication changes our brain. But we might need different things depending where we're at and what actually we need. Your GP or health visitor might be a good person to speak to, but you might actually need to start with simply talking to someone you trust, which might be a friend or family member or a peer support. How do you do that? Because you're so frightened of looking like a bad mum. You don't want to. You don't want to say that because it's all such a show, isn't it? And a lot of women don't want to say it because they think, well, maybe my baby will be taken away from me. And that then is really a scary thought. And actually, that's not what usually happens. That happens so rarely. And to know that your baby needs you and your baby loves you, your baby wants you, that's all they want. They don't want a perfect mum. They want a mum who is trying to work out what their needs are, trying to respond. And babies have so many needs, don't they? They are. When they're just newborn, they're actually trying to feel alive, they're trying to stay alive, and you're trying to help them stay alive. That's what you're doing as a new mum. And so all the feelings the baby has, that's what they're projecting into you. So that's partly why we feel so intense, so full of feelings, because we're managing all of their feelings as well as our own. And we're exhausted. I mean, it's an extreme, extraordinary job we're doing as mums. Well done, everybody. Exactly, exactly. And it was interesting. I don't know whether you saw the documentary the other night that Louis Thoreau did on the four mums that were. It was Mums on the Edge. That was the title. Yes. But that was where. I hope we can reach out to some mums today and say, actually, no, don't get to that point where you literally have to section yourself or go down, you know, maybe. Well, if you have. If you didn't watch the program, a lot of these women actually went into the doctor's surgery and said, you've got to help me. They were really at the Point of. And that's good. They did ask for help in the end. Yeah. And I think a couple of them, their partners actually had suggested it. But what we're saying today is, you know, go on to an online sign, like Emma's diary. Yes. They have this amazing section called My Mind and Me, which is under the wellbeing section. And it really does, like you say, it's got a spectrum, a spectrum that you can see where you are. And that could be a good starting point, couldn't it? It could be, yes. And also, in this particular research document, it said that only one in ten mums would ever think of going to the gp. Why is that? I think that's linked to that sense of guilt and shame about whether or not. Stigma. Yeah, stigma. It's also, I think women are worried that medication will be suggested and a lot of women don't want medication, so they think, well, what else will I be offered? And the gps have on their Royal College of Psychiatry of General Practitioners, Royal College of General Practitioners website, a toolkit for perinatal mental health with some really good advice for GPs. So there is advice there to help GPs and health visitors suggest things to you and it's really good for you to go to them and say, I would really like the opportunity to get some treatment. Talking treatment. There's some wonderful things like parent infant psychotherapy, video interaction guidance, which is called vig, some parenting programs that are really helpful that make you feel better as a mum and that helps your mood, like circle of security. There's things like Brazildon, where you can get to know your baby better with a particular type of interaction called the nbo. You know, there's so much out there and the problem is, in our country, we're still getting enough resources for that, but please ask, and we want to support you through saying what we think might help you and you will get to a better place. Do you know, when I had triplets, because I had three, it was very obvious that I was overwhelmed and struggling and so a lot more people came to me. It was a lot easier for me to say, I'm not coping, because I had three. And so in some ways there was no stigma with me because I had three, but I was probably going through all the same emotions. So I think, you know, any mums out there, if you actually did just say to your friend or somebody else, I'm feeling like this, they're probably going to come back to you and say, I'm feeling the same. And that's a starting point. What should we do to help ourselves on that? So what do we do to seek help? We talked about going online maybe and seeing where you're up to at first, but definitely go to see your gp. Yes, yes, yes. Go to see your GP and let them know that you're struggling and really say, I need some help. Choose a GP who you trust to go and visit and see what they can help with. If necessary, go back with a friend or a partner if you feel that you're not quite able to accept. Explain and see what's possible. And what if, say, you have to wait three weeks for your appointment at your gp? I mean, can you say it's urgent or is that not definitely say it's urgent. You know, babies can't wait, can they? No. And mums and babies can't wait. And that's good to know because you don't feel like. Because there's not blood pouring out my ear, that you can say it's urgent. It's urgent and it's really important to say that. And if necessary, get someone to say it for you so that you can do it together. It's so intense, isn't it, when you're feeding a baby, let alone trying to manage feeding and sleeping and sleep deprivation, of course, is a massive part of all of this, isn't it, for mums? And that can tip you into feeling like you can't manage or feeling overwhelmed. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. I'm sure with triplets you knew that. But I think, as you said, this is an ordinary experience for all of us. And of course, the other thing is that one of the things Emma's diary found out was about resentment and about these feelings of jealousy about what everyone else is getting on with in their life. And how do we actually find a way of recognizing it's a stage we're in? You know, it's embrace being a mother at this point with this baby, because they're going to grow up and be a bit different in six months time. Well, even in a month, even in a week. And that resentment or feeling towards your partner about what he can do because he's carrying on as if normal. For example, if you have a partner or your friends or your mum, remember, there is something about that this is a stage, you're in this light at the end of the tunnel. What will help you, what support will help you to kind of enjoy it and be kind to yourself. It's a big change becoming a mum. You might have stopped work, the economic balance might have changed in Your household, all these things have changed, really. And resentment isn't so much a mental health issue, but it can be something that builds up inside you. So it's good to recognise that initially and that is really good advice. When you say it's just temporary, we call it, you go into the tunnel, but you'll come out again, it's temporary. And you know what? I think something really helpful to think about is think about time changing before you have a baby. You're in industrial time, you're on deadlines, you're perhaps working, you're doing all this stuff. When you have a baby, you need to shift into horticultural gardening time. You need to provide a rich, fertile soil, water, sunshine, and then let your baby grow. Be interested in your baby because your baby will show you the way and what they need. They might be very sensitive, they might not. They might be a baby who cries a lot, who doesn't sleep, who never sits up when you're expecting. Let them be who they are and some of your pressure and expectation on yourself might just drop away a bit because you can just be where they are and delight in this little one as they are. What do you do when the expectation is on the or the reality isn't as you thought it would be? How do you cope with that feeling? That's grief, isn't it? It's the grief of having lost something that you were hoping for or not. How it was and how is it that you might then again, name it, name your feelings. It's all right. It's ordinary. We lose things and we gain things all the time, don't we? To really recognise that it's actually. This is part of being human. It's okay, you'll get there. You need support. But, Katherine, I'm gonna have to stop you right there. Thank you so much for coming. Will you come back? My pleasure. I would love to. Thank you so much, Carolyn. All right, we'll see you in a minute. Welcome to the women's radio station. Supporting women's well being. Women's Radio station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website, womensradiostation.com for more information. Hi, I'm Liz Van Linden, a UK travel consultant for Hazelmere Travel. People come to me as they want unique experiences and a personalised service. This happens from the moment that they enquire till they come back home. I work with luxury tour operators. You can contact me on 078-254-12112 and Liz spelt L I S at hazazelmeretravel.co.uk I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. Many women want to be smarter with their cash, but just don't know where to start. @empowerandenrich.org you will find a host of options to help you take charge of your finances and learn how to put your money to work for you in an easy, affordable way. Get in touch with me@empowerandenrich.org and let's change your future together. Hi, I'm Carolyn Van Beers. Please join me for a brand new show here on women's radio station, its Mother's Hour. If, like me, you're a mum juggling far too many balls and dropping most of them, this is definitely the show for you. We'll examine the highs and lows of motherhood and make sure you laugh out loud as we take on this challenging role together with spoonfuls of advice, incredible stories. It will be refreshing, honest and funny. Look at being a mum. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntousous.org.uk welcome to the Women's radio station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station can give voice to your brand. With a wide range of sponsorship opportunities, including individual programs, we can tailor your experience for you. For more information on how you can sponsor a Show, go to womensradiostation.com Women's radio station supporting women's well being. Hello. Welcome back to Mother's Hour here on Women's Radio Station. I'm Carolyn Van Beers and we are talking Mum's mental Health. Today, we've been having a really, really good chat to Dr. Katherine Hollands about how you can recognise that you do have depression or anxiety. And we're now going to chat to my other guest in the studio, Yasmin Kamila about her battle with depression. Yasmin is 33. She's a full time working mum. She's a blogger and I would say certainly had her fair share of mental health issues. Welcome to the show. Hello. Thanks for having me and thank you for coming on and sharing your story. I think we can gain so much from sharing, which is a lot of what Mother's Hour is about. So, yes, I'm very pleased you're here. So let's get straight in. And it's actually a happy story before we start. It is a happy story because you are. I'm in a really good place now. Exactly. Yeah. It's a happy story. Lovely. Yeah, that's what we like. Okay, so, yeah, when did you first acknowledge you just weren't feeling okay? So I've got two children. One is six and one is almost four. And it was actually when my second child was around six months old that I finally realized that I needed to seek help. But in hindsight, I was definitely suffering after my first child as well. And I had just ploughed on and just assumed that this was what mum life was and it was going to be tricky and I should just get on with it. What kind of things were you feeling? So with my first child, I felt like he didn't really like me. He liked everyone else more than me. So we had a really tough time. Start with feeding, you know, managed to get breastfeeding to work out in the end. But at the beginning it was really, really hard going. So a lot of our time was spent doing difficult stuff. But then when he would be handed to another member of the family, he'd be really happy and smiley and make little gurgly noises and we just didn't have what I felt was much of that. I'm sure we probably did, but it just always felt like he was happier when he was with other people. So you were a bit overwhelmed? Definitely overwhelmed. He was, you know, quite a tricky child. He woke every hour. Now we know he has allergies, so it's likely that he was suffering from the allergies when he was a baby and really struggling to sleep. But my nature is just to plow on and get on with things. So I think even in this instance where it was really difficult, I just carried on. Wow, so you then had your second child. Yeah. And how long were you along in that before you really started to. Yeah, so in a dark place. So I think, you know, our world kind of was turned upside down in many ways with the second child coming along. My first was used to his nursery routine. Obviously I'd been back to work in between. And when my second child came along, I stopped work a couple of weeks before she was born and my son stop nursery as well. So for all of us it was a massive change. Obviously then second child into the family as well. She was a bit poorly, she had allergies, which is how we worked out my sons. And as a result she demanded a lot of attention. And my son generally just didn't take so well to the fact that my attention was, you know, having to be split, which is probably really common. But I struggled on for, I would say, sort of six, seven months before I actually started to say, I think that there's something wrong. I'm not feeling like this is okay. And it had got really bad by then. I didn't leave the house for a couple of months. And the difference with this, because I think I thought postnatal depression was all around your baby and your feelings towards your baby. But actually a lot of my resentment and anger was towards my older child. And I think because of those feelings I just didn't register that it might be postnatal depression. Gosh. So you're at the six month phase. You're feeling very dark. Angry. Yeah, very dark, Very angry. I, I did unfortunately get to the point where I genuinely thought my children would be better off without me. But until before getting to that stage, I was thinking, oh, maybe I just need my son to go and live somewhere else. Which, you know, I can say it now and laugh because, you know, we have such a good relationship and I am in such a better place. But at the time I obviously had great fears that if I tell anyone how I'm feeling, my kids might be taken off of me. And I was wondering what was wrong with me, but not coming up with, you know, maybe I just need to go and talk to somebody. Maybe I need to tell someone that I'm feeling like this because I was really scared. So that, that is such a big thing. And I think there's going to be quite a few mums out there who probably feeling like they can't say exactly that kind of thing. Yeah. But that's okay, isn't it? Because that's just part of the imbalance that's going on. Exactly. Yeah. And if you. At that time. And it's not going to last forever, you know, it's. It's just what you're. What you're going through. Exactly. And very quickly after I. So what I actually did in the end was kind of get an emergency appointment. Interesting. You know, just saying it is an emergency. And I, at that point knew it was. Went into. My doctors broke down and said, I can't do this, something needs to change. Okay, Describe that day for me, though. Describe morning. Where were you? I was at home. I'd been at home all day. I had been just trying to make everyone have a nice day because that was what I was always trying to do. And it was quite. Yeah, it was just quite a difficult day in general. My daughter's allergies were really bad. My son was probably bored because it was around the time when we'd spent a couple of months just in the house because I was too scared to go out. And it just felt like everything I was doing wasn't, you know, right for them. I was trying my best and they were unhappy and I was crying and crying. I remember sitting on my bed, just completely ignoring them for half an hour and crying. And they came to talk to me and my son was articulate at that point. He was going on for almost three. He said, you know, what's wrong with you, Mummy? And I couldn't even respond to him. And then I called my boyfriend and said, I can't cope, I can't do this. And he was like, I'm on my way home, but I'm not going to be home yet for a while. He was on his way home from work. It was around like 4 or 5pm and I just rang the doctor and I was like, I just need to see a doctor. And luckily they literally just said, just. Just come straight away. And I just walked in, saw a doctor, but I didn't. I didn't feel immediately better, but I was really pleased that I just told someone because I had mentioned things to friends and family in passing, but I think that people quite easily just shrug it off, as, you know, it's just difficult being a mum of two. It's just difficult being a mum. So, yeah, it was very brush under the carpet. And I actually did have one family member comment that it was a really bad idea that I'd gone into the doctors in such a state, because that's not going to look good. So, you know, it is interesting how people's views are still kind of. Just get on with it. Well, we've just heard from Catherine that that's not the case, that nothing's going to happen to your children. They're actually going to embrace the fact that you have come forward and said, hey, help me out here, I'm not feeling great. And so you went to the doctors and what treatment did they. So what did you have? Was it anxiety? Was it depression? What was going on? So they didn't. That day, they didn't. They didn't try and diagnose anything. They just spoke to me, asked me how I was feeling. They said they definitely wanted me to see. To talk to somebody quite quickly. But in the meantime, they strongly suggested I start taking some medication, which was one of the reasons why I was putting it off, because I was breastfeeding. I thought, I don't know if it's safe, and all of these thoughts in my mind. And they gave me the one that they believed to be the most safe for breastfeeding. And I just took it because at that point, I knew I just had to take advice and listen to the people around me that had a clearer view of what was going on than myself, because I was kind of so in it. So I just started taking the tablets and I was fast tracked. And I think within a week or so or even less, I had a call and had a telephone assessment to start some cbt, which is cognitive. Yeah, cognitive behavioral therapy. Right. Okay. Now, just before we get on to that. So they gave you medication? Antidepressant? Yes, antidepressants. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And did you feel better after those? So they took a few days to kick in. They can take a couple of weeks for some people, I think, but they did start helping me within a few days, just sort of boost my energy levels. And I felt like. Because anger was one of my really biggest feelings, it just took the edge off, and I just felt like I could breathe a little bit more. And then, you know, it just felt like small steps forward every day after that. Wow. Okay. So you now taking the antidepressants, you're feeling a little bit better? Yeah. And then you phone counseling, is that right? Yep. So I had the talking therapy over the phone. It was once a week for six weeks. And they also sent some packs that I could read in advance of the sessions and kind of do some self assessment so that I could get a real good picture of how I was feeling to make our session the most valuable in terms of the time I had with the therapist. And did you find that. Would you have rather been in a room with someone? I would have preferred face to face because the difficult thing for me was that I still had my two children around. I didn't have any childcare or help. They were both with me all the time. I didn't really have any friends that I could, you know, ask to look after them. And that's most months. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so that was tricky for me. And you're still stuck at home, aren't you? Yeah, exactly. And I can't. This is so silly, but I kind of felt like if they give me an appointment that I had to go into, it would be okay for me to ask for someone to look after my children. But because I was at home I just sort of muddled through. But actually it was the same appointment. I could have still asked somebody, but I'm not one. Definitely before, not very good at asking for help. I recognize that. Definitely. So, okay, so you got some therapy. How long did that last and did it help? Yeah, so it definitely helped. It was six weeks. It helped me identify some of the real key things that were happening. And so a lot of it was like it was actually obsessive compulsive thinking. So if I don't, if I go out, this might go wrong. That might go wrong. So it really helped me identify some of the things was doing and start to think about how I could change them. But I did, I definitely wasn't totally okay at the end of those six weeks. More would have been helpful. Okay, well we're going to come back and talk to you in just a few minutes time and more about how you're feeling now and how your journey's come through. We're just going to go to a quick ab break but do join me where we'll be talking a little bit more to Jasmine and getting some top tips for you, you mums out there. Welcome to women's radio station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on women's radio station. Hello and welcome to future classic Women awards with me Stefania Passamonte on women's radio station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at women's radio station supporting women's well being and we're talking all things autism. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Falguni Desai of Action Coach. Are you a business owner with more than five employees? Do you want to grow your business? I'm a London based business coach who helps small and medium sized businesses to grow and make a profit. I will help you identify the strengths and weaknesses in your business and then work with you to improve it using a structured framework. 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Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Thanks so much for staying with us here. It's Mother's Hour here on Women's Radio Station. I'm Carolyn Van Beers and I am joined in the studio today talking about Mum's mental health with another mum, Jasmine Camilla, who's been very honest and shared her story. I think it's just amazing that, you know, you got to the point where you had to literally get an emergency appointment. We were just talking about when it was that Yasmin went to get help, you got help, you got some, prescribed some antidepressants and then you had the six weeks of telephone therapy. Yeah, that's where we were up to. Yeah. So it definitely was helpful. I think I'm quite lucky in the sense that I'm quite a reflective person. So I got a lot from it and then I continued my own kind of trying to keep it up, trying to change behaviors, trying to challenge my thoughts. But I think had I had more sessions it would have been really useful. Obviously it's just sort of challenge on resources available and stuff, but it was a turning point for me to just have a therapist point out where I could challenge those thoughts. So you had anxiety and that was in your obsessive compulsive behavior, is that right? Yeah, exactly. So give me some examples. So my obsessive compulsive disorder was more around the thoughts, so there's like two sides to it. So it's behavior and thought. So actually what they were saying was that my anxious thoughts were obsessive compulsive. So I would. Obviously I talked a little bit about not going out for periods of time and that was mostly because my 2 year old was misbehaving and I felt like I couldn't keep that under control and that people were judging me. And basically what would happen is I'd stay in and then every day I'd think, right, I'm going to try and go out and today. But if I go out I might see that mum who I'm sure gave me a funny look the other day and if she sees me again then this will happen and it just continues on and on and on and you could carry on going until the world explodes in this chain of thought. But yeah, so that was. And it's real anxiety. Yeah, real anxiety, yeah. Gosh. Because a few weeks ago there was a documentary with Nadia on the BBC and it actually, she talked about her anxiety and I would have never known. I thought she was this perfect mum, perfect person. And she was so honest. And she explained those feelings that you were just talking about. Yeah, Just being completely paralyzed in a way. Yeah, yeah. And then not be able to do that next thing because of all the what ifs, I think in a completely different way, but I probably suffered a little bit from that in some ways too. People were very used to seeing me doing lots of different things. I've always, always worked really hard. I've always had side projects. I've always been really busy and kind of managed it all. And probably on the face of it, people thought I was managing it all with the kids as well. So I definitely think that when I was actually saying I'm really, really not coping, people were just like, oh, you're just having a bad day for once in your life. Because usually I kind of present as really positive and happy and so now you are feeling better. Yeah. How many years ago was this? So my daughter will be four in July, so I guess kind of two, two and a half years. Completely clear of those kind of feelings. But I definitely have to keep things like this in check because, you know, otherwise you can come back. Exactly. And you just. I just think having been through that journey and understanding a bit more about what my anxiety is like and how it presents then, even now when my children are a bit older, I'm just aware of it and I definitely wouldn't ever, if I was feeling that bad again, I wouldn't leave it that long before telling someone or asking for help, that's for sure. Well, that was my next question. So we've got mums out there probably listening to your story. What would be your advice? Just 100% talk to someone. Find someone you feel comfortable or just safe talking to. What if they're in the point that you were. They don't even want to go out the house. I mean, what about social media? We've talked about that. That could be quite damaging. But surely there can be some quite good things on social media and actually there are some real positives. And as I mentioned with my first child, I definitely think I suffered from postnatal depression and I didn't seek help and I didn't get any help, but I did get better. And that was through forums of like minded mums or parents who were sharing openly. Honestly, they were kind of closed networks and I could ask for advice, I could genuinely say how I was feeling without the fear of being judged. And I don't think I had that many friends around me who were in the same place as me. You know, lots of them hadn't had children yet and so that was my way of finding some people that I could reach out to. And I definitely got better mentally after my son because of the help from social media. And you do have to switch off to all the glamorization of things, but there is so much good stuff, stuff to be had as well. Yeah. I mean, when I had my first child, we didn't have all these Instagram accounts where everyone was posting ridiculous pictures of the perfect family. Yeah. And so I didn't really have that. But you know, since having the triplets, I'm like, oh, everyone's having a good time and I'm not. And you know, I'm stuck when I've got, you know, too many children, so that is a. It is a horrible pressure. And if you are feeling a bit damaged, just stay clear of it for a little while and try and use sites that are going to be a bit more nourishing for you. Yeah. And cherish you a little bit because it's an important time. And as the doctor said before, it's such a short period of time. Just try and maybe realize that. That your life is just as good as anyone else's and, yeah, concentrate on being a mum, really. Yeah, exactly. And it really is. It's a point in time. I definitely feel now my kids are a bit older, that I'm sort of starting to have my old identity where I'm doing things for myself. Bit more creative. But I think with Instagram, Instagram probably is the biggest one because you see pictures of these amazing lives. I think everybody just needs. Needs to remember that you can just unfollow anyone who's not making you feel good. Yes. You don't have to follow all the celebrities or all the big Instagram accounts just because everyone else is. It doesn't really matter. It's not going to affect your life if you don't see what they're up to today. And you know, I say that as an Instagrammer, you don't like if, if something me or anyone else posts on Instagram isn't making you feel good, or you just. Or you just think it's just not a reality, let alone yours, just unfollow them. You don't need to see it and then use it for yourself in a way. You know, when you do have a good day or you do get a nice snap of you and the kids, put your picture up, whether you can keep your account private. But then as well, it's such a nice thing to look back on of the nice moments, even if they feel few and far between, that there's that positive side to it. Use it for yourself, not for. For the others. I mean, we talked before, didn't we, about the Louis Thoreau documentary, which was talking or looking at mums who were on the edge. And there was one mum on there who was really on the edge, I would say of all the mums, she was really. She was not in a good place and had very suicidal thoughts and actually did try to commit suicide. And then she talked about Instagram and she actually said, I posted these pictures, these beautiful pictures of her baby and to anyone else, it would have looked like she's happy. Look at her lovely baby. It all looked perfect. And she was kind of commenting on how that perfect world just really scared her, didn't it? Yeah, yeah. And really triggered some of those bad feelings that of feeling inadequate and, you know. Yeah. So switch them off. Good advice. All right, well, listen, thank you very much for sharing your story. It has been very revealing. We are in that end part of the show where we're doing top tips, advice, anything you can give out. And that was a great bit of advice that you gave there. Is there anything else that you would like to share today? Just really just remember that it's a phase in time. It feels like forever at the moment. And also, once you come out the other end, there are some points in time that you might think were absolutely horrendous. You may just look back on them fondly. There are moments when I was on my knees crying, and I can laugh about those now. You will get to that. You know, you will get to that point where it isn't all just a wave of bad times. You'll remember the good bits. That's great advice. I also think planning something, if you've got something to look forward to, whether it's with your family, just a walk. Just a walk. It's something that's there and it breaks up that monotony and that cycle that you sometimes get into. Sometimes you just need to get out. Yeah. Especially because. Yeah, I think mums instant reaction is to isolate as well. So committing and just showing up and doing that one thing, one baby group, one walk, or whatever it is you've said you're gonna do on a weekly basis, just getting out and doing it will make you feel so much better. That is excellent advice. Another thing, and I'm gonna go into this on another show. Sing. Instead of going on Instagram, get your Alexa or get whatever it is, your favorite track, get your baby and sing. Because singing actually releases endorphins and chemicals in your blood that make you feel happy. So if you are. You know, I'm not a doctor, but it really helped with me. There was some crazy moments and singing really did help me and just lift. It just lifted my mood. So, yes. Now, before we go, because we're very near the end, can you give me your. You're a blogger, aren't you? Yes, I'm a blogger. How can we look you up and find out more about your story? So I do have a blog, so it's yasmincamilla.com Yasmin's Y A S M I N E There's an E on the end most people don't have. As in Yasmin Le Bon. Yeah. And I'm also on an Instagram under the same name, so. Instagram. I post daily. Really, really honest. I try to share the good bits and the bad bits. Okay. And if you have been affected by any of the subjects we've been talking about today, anxiety, depression or even just the resentment, do try out Emma's diary, that's www.emmasdiary.co.uk and go to the wellbeing site. And if you would like to get in contact with me, maybe you're a mum and you've listened in today and you'd love to get in contact. I would just love to hear from you. I'm caroline@womensradiostation.com we've got lots of future shows coming up. Guilt, postnatal depression, who does what, the Blame Game, Back to work and how to be successful, even if you're a mum. So we will be coming back to you very soon. Thanks for joining me. Welcome to the women's radio station. 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