[Speaker 2] (0:00 – 6:24)
Hello, this is Anna Kennedy and we’re talking All Things Autism. We have a busy show for you today, lots to get through. So what have I been doing?

I’ve been doing so many different things. I’ve been meeting myself coming round the corner. As I was saying that they used to say in the northeast.

So before I speak to my guest, exciting news. One of our charity ambassadors, Kieran Lee, unveils his debut album Acronyms, a soulful and R&B journey. He’s been a past guest on women’s radio station.

He has been working so hard on this album for quite some time and he never ever thought he was going to get there. But he did. And he’s got CDs as well.

So if you’re interested, all the information is on the charity website. So just to let you know, he’s embarking on a soulful journey. Kieran’s musical journey began with releasing the heartfelt track Letting Go, which featured on a compilation album supporting our charity.

The launch event at the iconic Hard Rock in London marked the start of Kieran’s ascent into the spotlight. His exceptional talent caught the attention of Jay Rock from Big Brothers, leading to a collaboration with their hit song Baby Boy. After a period away from the music, Kieran is returning with a renewed vigor to speedhead the launch of his debut album Acronyms.

So it’s amazing. You need to listen to it again. All of the information and how it came about is on the charity website.

Just to remind you, www.annaKennedyonline.com. He’s got such an amazing voice, Kieran. When he sings on stage, you can hear a pin drop and I can feel it in my gut when he sings.

He’s just amazing. I just don’t think he knows how good he really is. I’m just talking about Autumn’s good talent as well.

Don’t forget it’s happening in October. It’ll be here in no time. So we have chosen our performers.

It was so hard. We’ve had them from all over the country and overseas. What we managed to, you know what, we got to 30.

We’ve popped it really hard to get to 20, but we managed to do it in the end. But I always say, please apply every year if you weren’t successful. It’s not a competition.

It’s a showcase of talent. So it’s happening in October, our 13th year, and it’s at the Mermaid Theatre once again. It just lends itself so well for us and for all our performers and their families.

And something exciting, I was so proud of Olivia Slatter, someone who I actually put forward for the Diana Award, which she got that, I think it was about two months ago now. But she was invited to number 10 Downing Street and she was invited to a round table discussion. And I went along to support her.

So I’ll just read a little bit about, she’s just written something today that I’m going to be sharing on the charity website very soon. So she’s saying that her night was very slow. The night before was feeling so many different emotions.

I was actually tempted to cancel as my nerves and my head were getting the better of me. I only had three hours sleep. I know how that feels, trying to function for the day.

It was really muggy when I woke up and muggy weather makes me feel claustrophobic and panicky. I was scared of missing the alarm for the wake up call. So I thought, if I stay up, I won’t visit.

I carried on getting ready, cuddling my little dog, Macy. I took Macy up for a walk at seven to clear my head and I had a cup of tea and tried to figure it all out. I was really nervous about getting on the train, the movement of the train, the people who might be sitting next to me on the train, binding the right coach.

By that point, I walked down to the train station and I was meeting her at King’s Cross St Pancreas. I could see like when she saw me when she got off the train, it was just like, phew, there’s somebody I recognise because it’s quite overwhelming. All of the sounds, it’s just really, I know when I take my son Angelo, he finds it extremely difficult to go on to the train.

So once we got there, basically we sat, there was about 30 people around the table. We were with Miles and Miles is, he works with the Prime Minister. There was many people there because Olivia is, she’s 25 now, I think, and she’s got a diagnosis of autism and ADHD.

She really struggled at school and she was also homeless, but she’s turning things around. She set up something called It’s Olivia’s World and I speak to her almost every day. She lives on her own now and she’s an opera singer.

So she’s an amazing young woman. She’s got a lot going for her. She said, thank you, Anna, for making the experience calmer and better and taking the time out of your family life and your busy charity.

I hope I made the autism community proud. She most definitely did. We had a chat with the education minister was there and hopefully some positive things will be coming from that meeting.

So we’re keeping our fingers crossed. So again, just to remind you about the Autism Hero Awards. Once again, we had so many nominations coming in from across the country and overseas.

So the judges will be getting together on September the 14th at the Cumberland Hotel. And they are going to have the tough choice of choosing three finalists for each of the 10 categories. So that’s all the finalists will be traveling down to London in November to the Cumberland Hotel, which is near Marble Arch, a lovely hotel where they will get a three course meal, a welcome drink.

There’ll be entertainment and then the winners will be announced on the night. So that’s an exciting. It’s just so lovely, the Hero Awards, but it’s a bit of a tearjerker.

So everyone needs to bring their tissues. So I am so pleased to introduce to you Alfonso Archer, a good friend to the charity and an amazing gentleman. So Alfonso pursued a master’s degree in music therapy from the University of the West of England, where he achieved a distinction.

His dissertation centered on the profound role of music in aiding black men’s recovery from prostate cancer treatment. Today, as a music therapist at Venture Academy, Venturers Academy, sorry, he collaborates with a multidisciplinary team of occupational therapists, dance therapists and psychotherapists to provide a holistic student support. Welcome, Alfonso.

[Speaker 1] (6:24 – 6:35)
Oh, hi there, Anna. Yes, it’s wonderful hearing about the autism dot talent and the Hero Awards. It’s just so inspirational to hear about that.

It’s amazing.

[Speaker 2] (6:35 – 6:54)
Oh, it’s lovely. It’s like two of the highlight events that we have of the year. The other one we also love is the autism expo when people come together, speakers and we can support families.

So before we talk about autism, before we talk about the work that you do for our listeners, who is Alfonso?

[Speaker 1] (6:54 – 10:34)
Who is Alfonso? Alfonso, I’m, gosh, I’m a music therapist, but before that, you know, I started life in the north of England, growing up in Derby actually, with five other siblings, so six of us. So my parents came from Jamaica, so they’re one of the, I guess the Windrush generation, they like to call them, in the 60s.

And so I was born in Jamaica, but three months old when I came to the UK, so grew up in Nottingham, most of the time in Derby, that’s where I lived. And, you know, through that time, you know, music became something that became my passion from a very early age in church. And, you know, so I grew up, you know, playing piano and guitar in church and then went on to have lessons.

And, you know, from there I discovered I was actually quite bright at school, so I was parachuted into the top group and went on to actually get to university where I did a degree in psychology and sociology as my first degree. And then, you know, growing up, you know, I grew up with a father with schizophrenia, so it was quite a tough childhood. And that actually inspired me to do my first dissertation, which is actually on ambiguities in the diagnosis of schizophrenia amongst ethnic minorities, which sounds quite heavy.

But, you know, even now there is still a lot of ambiguities in diagnosis of schizophrenia with people of colour. So that that really kind of helped to shape my thinking. And from there I went on to graduate and become a welfare officer for the first few years of my career, working with young adults who are on remand and helping them.

If they weren’t convicted, then I just helped them to reintegrate back into society by finding them, helping them find work or access to benefits and support, etc. And then, you know, from there I was very young and wanted to make money, so I actually went into the IT world and spent over 25 years in IT. AI selling software, etc.

and did very well in that area. And then from there, a big life event, you know, I actually was diagnosed with prostate cancer myself. And then that kind of inspired me to change direction and really connect back with who I am and my music.

And that’s how I kind of morphed my career into teaching, first of all, started doing a lot of teaching. I always used to teach library, but actually did that full time, teaching piano, guitar and drums, you know, from my studio. So you’ve been busy then?

So really busy. So my life is kind of, music’s always been central to my life, you know, right from a very young age. And it was something that I used to block out the noise, you know, with the father, with schizophrenia.

It was really chaotic and actually quite traumatic. So music has always been central in my life as well, you know, right from young age, right through to now as well. So in a nutshell, that’s kind of who I am.

[Speaker 2] (10:35 – 10:46)
So could you talk to me a little bit? You touched on music therapy. So music therapy for children with autism and do you work with adults as well or is it just children?

[Speaker 1] (10:46 – 11:25)
I work with adults, yeah. So I ended up, from my teaching, I ended up working in a school which literally opened up in 2016 in Brisbane. And that was for children with a primary diagnosis of autism.

And so my work is literally, most of it now is with Ventures Academy, but I also have private clients as well who are adults, you know, with autism and, you know, mental health challenges as well. So yes, both children, adults, yeah.

[Speaker 2] (11:26 – 11:49)
So what inspired you to focus specifically on working with children with autism? And can I ask you as well, growing up, could you remember reflecting back thinking, oh, that person probably was on the autism spectrum. I always ask my guests this, if they say, oh, most definitely I can remember people thinking, oh, they might have been a little bit eccentric or they might have been fixated on certain topics.

Can you remember?

[Speaker 1] (11:49 – 14:14)
Yeah, absolutely. So I have a son and he, you know, he’s now 30 and he was very good at football. And actually, like a lot of parents, you get drawn into becoming this dad on the sideline at the referee.

And actually one coach turned around and said, why don’t you do it? And then that’s exactly. So you were one of those.

I was one of those, but became a lot better when I became a coach. So I ended up coaching their football team. And in fact, just thinking back to your question, and it was it was during that coaching, naturally, that I noticed that there were lots of children that I didn’t know it at the time.

But there was something, you know, they weren’t. So something different about certain children that I was coaching and, you know, either they couldn’t move their foot in one direction and I had to, you know, do a lot more kind of hands on, you know, with the consent of the parents to hold their foot. So do a step over and things like that.

So I remember then and also because that work in coaching got me involved in working with the school, which was they entered the field. And it was especially a school for children with ADHD and so on. So in return, I used to coach a lot of the children at the school as well.

And that’s when I noticed there were certain children that were fixated on certain things. But I wasn’t told that they were autistic at the time, thinking back and also having now working for Ventures Academy because the head actually came from that school. And now when we talk back about certain children, yes, they subsequently went on to get an autism diagnosis.

And also some of my private clients that I was teaching piano and guitar, again, there were certain children that were really fixated on either one instrument or just used to practice a hell of a lot, you know, more than normal. And again, thinking back and subsequent to speaking to their parents, they went on to have the diagnosis of autism as well. So I noticed it in football and in music as well.

But at the time when I was working with those children, no, I wouldn’t have said, oh, yes, that person is autistic. I didn’t even have a word for that or wasn’t really that aware of that definition back then. So, yeah.

[Speaker 2] (14:16 – 14:23)
OK, so you spoke about Ventures Academy. So is that a school that specifically for children that are autistic or neurodiverse?

[Speaker 1] (14:24 – 14:50)
Yes, exactly. Yes. I opened up in 2016 the only school in Bristol for children with a primary diagnosis of autism.

So they’re all come on a referral on an EHCP, educational health care plan. And so in 2016, you know, I was invited to come and there was a child there. In fact, we know this child mutually.

His name is Lakili.

[Speaker 2] (14:51 – 14:51)
Oh, yes.

[Speaker 1] (14:52 – 18:06)
And, you know, Lakili was a brilliant pianist in the head who knew me from coaching. So look, why don’t you come and have a look at our school? And by the way, we have this child who’s brilliant on the piano, taught himself from YouTube.

He’s really good, but we don’t know how good he is. They invited me to come in and have a look at him and to see if I’d be interested in teaching piano at the school. So I went in and met this child, Lakili.

And within 20 minutes, it was evident that he was just amazing. I mean, I could just play three, four, five, six, seven notes on and he could just name them without even looking at the keyboard. And it was just incredible.

So I went on to just get a short teaching contract to really try and develop him because he was brilliant pianist. But his technique wasn’t that good because all his teaching was self off the Internet, YouTube, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, he played what he could hear regardless of fingering.

He just made it up. So so I kind of came in just to apply some classical discipline just to get his fingers going. And it was just through that work that I then started to notice through a play therapist, actually, that came into the school one week.

Guy called Matthew Hempson. And he was invited to, you know, he used to go into the school twice a year. And he just asked me to come around and work with him that week when he heard I was working with Achilles.

And from that week, just amazing things started to happen, you know, where, you know, I grabbed Matthew’s guitar. So let’s try this. Let me try this and grab this drum.

And I noticed that I was able to interact with the pupils in a way using music and just bringing other things outside, you know, bringing other things out of them. But Matthew said, well, how did you do that? And at the end of the week, Matthew just said, look, you know, you’re a music therapist.

I said, what is a music therapist? And what were these children doing? So I mean, there’s a child, for example, you know, Matthew was trying to get each child to sing their name, you know, just use going around with his guitar.

One child just wouldn’t engage. So I said to Matthew, let me grab your guitar. And I don’t know why I did it.

I just I just started playing this kind of a Greek kind of on the guitar and just jumped up and started just stamping his feet to the rhythm and I speed it up and he says getting faster and faster. And but intuitively, I was starting to do things that seem to connect with the children. I seem to have a way of, I don’t know, just just kind of just getting inside, bringing things out with the music.

And that’s when Matthew started saying, look, you know, you’re a music therapist. And that’s that inspired me to really check out what is a music therapist and started do the research. And I didn’t I wasn’t even aware at the time that you could actually do a career in music therapy.

And that’s really what ignited my.

[Speaker 2] (18:06 – 18:12)
How long does it take to become a music therapist for people listening in that might think, go on, I’d like to try that.

[Speaker 1] (18:12 – 19:14)
Yeah. And I really would encourage anyone with a passion for music. It’s a three year master’s degree.

And, you know, if you’re a mature student, you don’t even need to have a first degree. So, you know, work and life experience would help and count as well. So it’s a three year master’s degree part time, which means, you know, one day university and another day on placement.

So so it is hard work. Don’t get me wrong. You know, there’s a lot of introspection as well through having to go through over 50 hours of therapy.

So it really kind of pulls you apart and you kind of come out redefining who you are. So it’s a really amazing process over three years, you know, learning about using the music, different music therapy techniques, et cetera. But also a real journey of self discovery as well.

So I’d recommend it. It was it was life changing. I found it absolutely life changing.

[Speaker 2] (19:15 – 19:32)
So we were at a brief chat quickly before you came on and we were talking about virtual reality and they are playing a role in music therapy sessions for children that are autistic. Share with our listeners a little bit about what we were discussing and how it can play a role.

[Speaker 1] (19:32 – 24:25)
Yeah. I mean, so in my in my sessions, you know, I I like to say that there’s a music therapist. I use a range of instruments right from traditional instruments by traditional.

I mean, you know, your guitar, your piano, you’ve got drums, triangles, you know, those are what I call traditions. But also I bring in, you know, technology. So, you know, I’ve got iPads that you can create music on.

I use, you know, you mentioned virtual reality. Even an example. And why do I bring in VR and things because my because of my I.T. background, you know, when I was working in I.T., that got me very interested in software and technology. And I thought, you know, let me bring in VR. And the reason I did that was that several of the children that I started working with very early on not only had autism, but they were selectively mute. And there were various children that just didn’t respond to traditional instruments like a drum, et cetera.

But then I just thought, you know what, how can I engage this child, you know, not want to bang a drum? So I started to bring in the iPads with different instruments on it. And then I one day I brought in I was working with a young child and he he’s got he’s got a carer in school because he just can’t sit in class for more than five minutes.

And he was highly dysregulated one day. And I had a VR headset in that day. And the and the head actually came and knocked on door.

So, you know, can you come and see this child? He was out the front in the reception area and and and he was totally dysregulated on the floor. And and so we managed to get him into the room.

He came into the room with me and and and what I did with him was I actually put him on the moon. Literally, so honestly, it was literally like that. So I, you know, I explained to him that, you know, I asked him Mr. Space and astronauts and and that alone that seemed to kind of looked at me in a way. I think what’s he talking about? So I invited him to the moon. And so what I did was I got him to sit next to a keyboard.

And then there’s this brilliant app, which is developed by NASA. And it’s literally the moon landing. And, you know, literally five minute short things you got walking on the moon.

And I wonder where you come reentry back into Earth and so on. So anyway, so I put this child onto the moon and and then in front of him, there was a keyboard and I had some cinematic strings. So I put him on the keyboard and as he was just reorientating himself, I was just playing some music there.

And I just put his hand on the keyboard just to encourage him if you wanted to say, you know, you can create these sounds as well. And it just turned into this moment of, again, it just just intuition really. And he was just in that environment for about six minutes, totally absorbed.

And just pressing all these notes on the keyboard, just creating his own kind of soundtrack to this world, just walking on the moon. And the head walked to the door and then he grabbed his class teacher. When I looked around, it was about four or five teachers thinking, wow, this child has never sat still for a few minutes.

Never mind five, six minutes there. Yeah. And that’s what really inspired me to start exploring it more on that one.

And and then I started using VR. So I use it a lot now, but but more for clinical reasons. So, for example, I’ve used it with several children that are selectively mute, for example, and I had one child with a Polish parent.

And we didn’t even know that he had any English capabilities, but I put him on again onto the moon. And literally within six, seven minutes, he started to say, space man, astronaut. And then we did a reentry and he was saying, I can see Africa.

And in music therapy, we record. So I just recorded the audio of what he was saying and shared it with his parents. And it was just like a light bulb that came on.

You know, it kind of just seemed to unlock something. And from that, you know, that kind of unlocked speech. And he went on to full speech several months later, but he just used that technology.

So so it’s kind of a so I like to use these cutting edge technologies because I think it’s a you know, it brings in some kind of disruption.

[Speaker 2] (24:26 – 24:26)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (24:27 – 26:00)
Into the session, something different, you know, and and that’s you know, that’s what I how I like to use some of these more cutting edge technologies. And also a lot of children, you know, you know, we see all the time that they’re all very technical with the phones and all that kind of stuff and things like that. And, you know, there are some children that get a bit fixated on, you know, they want the VR, the VR.

So so I’ll try and avoid it in that situation and use it more purely clinical than the children that just want to just play on another device. So so but yeah, absolutely. I’m finding using these technologies or the iPads with apps like these apps, like something called Thumb Jam, which gives you lots of virtual instruments.

So like cellos and drums, you know, but they’re all on pads on the iPad. But but for for, you know, for children and adults, for example, you know, with with some kind of disability, they can’t use their fingers, you know, they might be able to just use one finger or just to swipe fingers across and and actually create, you know, cause and effect very easily. If it’s challenging for them, for example, to, you know, with coordination and things like that.

So the technology actually brings more inclusivity. You know, I think more options and music, you know, to bring more people into music as well.

[Speaker 2] (26:00 – 26:51)
So yeah, I love how creative you are and how you think out of the box. And when you talk, you can I can hear the passion in your voice. So yeah, no, I think children will be lucky to have you as their teacher.

So let’s talk a little bit about because obviously you’ve been involved in various fields with welfare. You’ve just spoken about it and music. How these diverse experience contributed to your approach as a music therapist.

You’ve touched on it a little bit. Is there anything else that you want to share? And also the people listening in, there is going to be an article on the charity website so you can can read a bit more about what Alfonso is talking about.

And there’ll be a few links on there that, you know, that he’s spoken about that you can click on and say it might be suitable for your child or you might be a teacher might want to use it in the classroom.

[Speaker 1] (26:52 – 30:26)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I’ll certainly give you a list of things that I think parents that’s easy. And I think it’s all about accessibility and making it easy.

But I think in terms of what’s influenced across the careers I’ve had, you know, from the welfare. I mean, I think what that brought was that that ability to listen and empathy and, you know, working in prisons with young adults. You know, it’s really taught me to just shut up and listen, basically, you know, because sometimes, you know, you can kind of make assumptions about people.

And that job, you know, having that job, you know, 22, 23, very young, you know, and working with adults that some of them were in there for murder or, you know, quite serious things. And you kind of really start to learn that, you know, it’s some of it, it’s it’s environmental, situational, that why they’re in there. And you really learn to develop empathy when you’re in that kind of doing that kind of work.

And then, you know, with the experience of working in the industry and IT, that really taught me a lot about how to connect networking and how I could use the power of bringing people together and contacting businesses to help. You know, because you always kind of need money or trying to get money from or to help with charities and pull things together. And it really developed my skills to not be scared to try big things, you know, to go and talk to a CEO in business and see if I can bring their expertise into the world of welfare to help out and things like that.

So I think all of that has really helped. And then, and that really helped me, you know, when I started working with Ventures Academy and not just Ventures, I worked with several other schools for children with autism. And the industry, working in the industry just taught me how to kind of cut through the politics of organizations, which you get a lot of that in schools.

And it’s, you know, just saying, look, it’s all about the children, isn’t it? You know, sometimes you’ve got all this politics going on and you kind of can lose sight of the fact that, you know, we have, you know, children here that their needs, you know, we need to be thinking about the needs of the child. And you can get so caught up with things like, for example, Offstead and all these stuff when these people come in, you know, and you can lose sight of the fact that, hang on, we have children here, that their needs need to be met.

And so when I set my business up, you know, that’s all I do. I’m self-employed. And my business is all about making sure that I turn up every day in school and I work with children with autism, either one-to-one, in small groups.

And I try and keep away from all that politics because I’ve found in business, you know, there’s so much of that stuff that just gets in the way of doing the real job. So I think, does that make sense?

[Speaker 2] (30:26 – 30:36)
Oh, definitely. And also I’ve spoken to teachers where they just feel strangulated by the paperwork. They say it’s not about teaching anymore, it’s about getting out of the paperwork.

Exactly, yeah.

[Speaker 1] (30:36 – 31:16)
And I’m self-employed and I can cut for all of that. And I just run a business which is all about my music therapy or creative play through music. And I try and just leave all of that, you know, to other people to do that, you know, and just concentrate on the work of being with that child and following their lead.

It’s child-led, you know, all the work I do, you know, I never tell your child to play the drum or play the piano. It’s how they come into the room and approach an instrument and then the work starts from there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2] (31:16 – 32:02)
I always remember when we were, I touched on earlier at the beginning, we were talking about Kieran and when we were recording Baby Boy. And obviously, there was a lot of waiting around when you’re recording a single and why they’re doing various bits. But the guys hadn’t come together as such.

We spent a few days, you know, working together to get this. And then all of a sudden, they just started jamming together and they’d never done it before. And it was just like the parents were just like in awe and they were having so much fun and it sounded amazing.

And everyone was dancing in the end, in the room. It was just that was like the best bit of the day for me. Yeah, so much.

But you could see they were getting so much out of it. And it’s the smiles. And yeah, it’s just like, yeah.

[Speaker 1] (32:02 – 33:41)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that jam that you defined there in music therapy terms, that we know we call that, you know, if I was going to use that clinically, then, you know, that improvisation that develops. Yeah, there are so many clinical things going on there in that improvisation that is just unfolding.

And you don’t even have to be a musician. And one of the things that, you know, I like to say to everyone coming into music therapy is you don’t have to be a musician. You don’t have to even love music to come into music therapy, because it’s just a process of having instruments available on which you can express.

So, you know, there’s no judgment. You know, once you’re in the room, and you’re bashing away on the piano, I’m not judging. And that’s one of the things that, you know, I really try and get across to pupils that it’s not about how it sounds, it’s the process of just And it’s what you get out of it as well.

Exactly, exactly that. And it’s that, and it’s through that process of how a child approaches an instrument and, you know, they might be quite nervous for the first four or five sessions. You know, I think about young girl I worked with who selected me mute, coming onto the drum and suddenly, you know, after 15 minutes in the first session, she didn’t want to touch an instrument.

Took her 15 minutes to really set a piano and just even press a few notes to now coming into the room and within 30 seconds, you know, she’s on a whole bunch of jam bass and she’s bashing it really loud.

[Speaker 2] (33:42 – 34:01)
It’s a trust thing as well, because our children and our adults, some of them, you know, may have been bullied or whatever’s happened during the early years, the trust thing is a big thing for our kids and our adults. Once they can trust you and they feel safe, so much then develops, I’ve seen it, a firsthand experience.

[Speaker 1] (34:01 – 35:04)
Really, I know what you describe in there with that trust is that you said, you know, when you’ve got this trauma, you know, these, you’ve got these broken attachments and what we do in music is, you know, and that’s a great thing about music as well, is that sometimes you just don’t have words, you don’t have language to, you know, you can’t describe these things and you don’t need to use words. You can just use that music to develop trust, that mutual bond just through music and repairing these attachments. You know, we started to do things that a mother or father would do with a young child, you know, this copying, this matching, this mirroring, and these things then kind of help to repair these broken attachments and create that safe space again, saying, you know, and that child starts to feel safe again through just playing and just improvising and, you know, you’re even copying and mirroring each other. And that’s what we’re doing, you know, through that whole improvisation in music therapy.

[Speaker 2] (35:05 – 35:26)
If you don’t mind, obviously, you touched on earlier about your health challenges, like the prostate cancer you spoke to me about, and then it was brain AVN. How did these experiences shape your commitment to music therapy for individuals who were autistic? And are you okay and in the clear now, if you don’t mind me asking?

[Speaker 1] (35:26 – 38:48)
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, you know, I was out, I mean, I had a great career in IT, and then I got this diagnosis of prostate cancer, and I was really lucky that I caught it early, and it was something that I knew very little about. And in fact, I discovered that my father, who’s passed away now, not from prostate cancer, but I discovered from my sister that he had prostate cancer himself, but he never told us about it.

And that’s something that really shocked me when I learned about that. And then they went on to discover that, you know, one in eight men will get prostate cancer. But for black men, it’s one in four.

And so that really opened. But I caught it early. And essentially, that was a defining moment in my life where, you know, I thought, I’m not going to die.

But you know, I thought, what am I actually leaving to the world? And it really brought me back to my work when I first started after I graduated, doing that work as a welfare officer. And I really loved that work.

It was so rewarding. And I thought, you know, I’ve got my music and that, you know, and it just all kind of came together. It was that epiphany moment where I thought, you know what, I’m not going to die.

I’m going to recover from this. But what, you know, where is my life going? So that was a big change.

And then literally, you know, within nine months, I also got a diagnosis of something called an AVM, which is the arteriovenous malformation of my brain, which is like a kind of a clot, a tangle of blood cells they discovered, again, really early. And so those life events is really transformational for me. And it kind of said to me, look, you know, you’re not going to die.

You’re going to recover from this. And it actually inspired my career as a music therapist. And it was, you know, discovering Ventures Academy and working children with autism and discovering that I actually had a talent for working with children with autism.

And it was life changing because it’s just become my passion. You know, when I met Lakili discovering his talent, you know, and then we actually sent I remember seeing an advert for that. I think you’d sent out for, you know, for children with that.

In fact, it was Tristan, the head of Ventures Academy that sent me this email. He said, look, you know, there’s a thing called autism got talent. And then and that inspired me to put Lakili and two other pupils forward and Lakili was got selected.

And then he went on to perform autism got talent. And that just, you know, what was amazing there was we had this pupil that was phenomenally talented suddenly entered autism got tired. And that gave him a real focus in terms of what we’re going to play.

And he put together a great set. And, you know, it was a brilliant night. And that actually that was an amazing thing because that he was about about eleven back then.

He’s now he’s now sixteen. Can you believe this? I know.

[Speaker 2] (38:48 – 39:00)
I remember from Lakili that when he finished performing, he could see he was really in the zone. And then when he got this standard innovation and everyone was clapping, he was smiling and he kept bowing all the time.

[Speaker 1] (39:00 – 39:10)
Exactly. He kept bowing. And, you know, but from that, I mean, that very first performance and then he then subsequently came and did autism got tired.

I think another two occasions again. That’s right.

[Speaker 2] (39:10 – 39:11)
That’s right.

[Speaker 1] (39:11 – 39:15)
And then and then he met and he met Katie Price in Harvard.

[Speaker 2] (39:16 – 39:16)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (39:16 – 39:30)
And then they they asked to feature because he wrote this song for this second performance called Autism’s Got Talent. It was an amazing song. And then he was contacted by Katie Price to use the song on her show.

[Speaker 2] (39:30 – 39:30)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (39:30 – 39:54)
But that went on to actually that just gave him so much comfort. He actually changed his life doing Autism’s Got Talent. And just in terms of his confidence, because from there, you know, he’s now went on to not only just do things in school, but he now organizes all the music, not just for his church, but for all their national conventions as well.

[Speaker 2] (39:54 – 39:57)
Yeah. In song as well, didn’t they?

[Speaker 1] (39:57 – 40:11)
That’s right. Yeah. So so so, you know, it’s been a real journey just kind of watching him grow and grow and all that confidence to develop and perform.

And it’s a fantastic platform to showcase talent.

[Speaker 2] (40:11 – 40:22)
It’s just they always say you have to be there to experience what I’m talking about. And when you gave a talk at Brunel University, you showed a video of him play the electric guitar. He’s amazing.

[Speaker 1] (40:23 – 41:33)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

He’s gone on to talk to the play guitar, bass and drums. Yeah. And he’s just brought all that together.

So so it’s just wonderful to see, you know, to be part of the school where I can see the children grow. And, you know, I remember some of my children that were selectively mute. I’ve been working them since nine years old.

There’s one young lady and I can mention her name because she went on to win an award. Sanya, you know, from nine selectively mute with autism and then singing for the first time in my session after three months. And then just working with her, developing her confidence.

And, you know, she went on by the end of the year to reading a poem in assembly. But then she got to 16 and she left a couple of years ago now. And it’s just wonderful to see them get, you know, from nine through to 16, start moving on going on to college.

And, you know, not only having full speech and that confidence, but, you know, it just I sometimes have to pitch myself and think, you know, that it’s through music, you know, that these things are happening, you know.

[Speaker 2] (41:33 – 41:33)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (41:34 – 41:36)
And it’s wonderful. It’s my job.

[Speaker 2] (41:36 – 43:05)
I remember a young girl because quite a few years ago before Autism’s Got Talent was born, it was one of the seeds of it. And I met Debbie Moore, who is the founder of Pineapple Dance Studios. And I was that woman of the year and she sat on the next table to me.

So I went up to her and just said, I’ve got this idea. I’d love to do a dance DVD for children who were autistic, but something that’s really cool where they’re doing tutting, popping, locking, all that sort of thing. Everything I’d seen was like, you know, not really up to date.

So he said, oh, she introduced me to Maggie and then we became friends. And then we created this thing called Step in the Right Direction Dance DVD. And James Hobley was in it because he was chosen as one of the finalists, seven in Britain’s Got Talent.

The Hoff took a shine to him. But he was part of the DVD that I did as well. And then this young girl and she hardly ever spoke at all.

But she wanted to be part of this, the dance DVD. So, you know, we put it together and everything. It took quite some time.

But then when the DVDs came out, her mom said she carried it with her everywhere. She went in the back of her rucks. She was so proud of this DVD.

And then she started speaking more. And mom said it was because of the confidence that had given her. So it just shows you how powerful something like music or dance can be for our children.

[Speaker 1] (43:06 – 43:08)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (43:08 – 43:34)
So let’s talk about your master’s degree in music therapy. So talk to me a little bit about that. So if somebody wants to do a master’s degree, what does it actually entail?

How long does it take? I know you touched on it briefly earlier. And talk to me a little bit more about the research on music in aiding black men’s recovery from prostate cancer treatment, if you don’t mind.

[Speaker 1] (43:34 – 46:36)
Yeah, well, so the master’s degree. And one thing I’d like to get across and where music therapy is actually really changing because the world of music therapy is, you know, if you were coming into it many years ago, you know, it was kind of very classically based. And, you know, a lot of people coming in through conservatoires or that kind of highly proficient reading music.

It’s changing now. So you don’t have to be able to read music, for example. I mean, I read music and I got through the whole audition process.

But for example, let’s say you’re a really good pianist or a really good drummer or even a DJ or a rapper. You’re just brilliant at what you do with music. You know, you can apply to become a music therapist because essentially what they’re looking for is people that have that relationship not with music, but also have that ability to connect with people.

So all those things are really, really important, you know, if you just brush away the academic thing. But then because it’s a master’s, there is an academic side. So, you know, you’re going to go in and, you know, learn a lot more about psychology.

You’re going to go deep on trauma because a lot of our work is trauma informed. So that’s really important to understand that. And also, obviously, you know, we work in a diverse society.

We need to understand diversity, working with people of all different backgrounds and diversity in terms of, you know, we talk about neurodiversity. So we go deep into all those things there. And then obviously underpinning that is a lot of theory around psychology and different therapeutic techniques.

You know, you’ve got obviously going back to Freudian, transference, counter-transference. So you’re learning a lot of the technical side. But psychology and attachment theory, you know, we touched on that earlier.

So there’s that whole academic discipline and everything around counseling that you’re going to learn as well. But I think I mentioned it earlier, but a big part of music therapy as well. For us to be able to take people through therapy, you really need to understand yourself.

And I think that that was a real massive eye-opener for me, you know, having going through personal therapy, something that I never thought about personally. And with hindsight, you know, looking at growing up with a father with schizophrenia, that really unlocked a whole loads of stuff that I was carrying that I hadn’t worked through. You know, everyone thinks I’m OK, but you then realize, actually, we all need, you know, would benefit from therapy or, you know, a good person that could really have that empathetic approach.

[Speaker 2] (46:36 – 46:38)
Yeah, I think you need the right person, though.

[Speaker 1] (46:38 – 46:39)
But you do. Exactly.

[Speaker 2] (46:40 – 46:50)
Yeah, I think, you know, I must admit, I tried counseling one, but it just didn’t do anything for me at all. I tried. I really tried.

But I just, I just, for me, it wasn’t the right person for me.

[Speaker 1] (46:50 – 47:00)
Yeah, it’s the right person. I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s having that relationship, you know, with the right person that you feel safe with.

[Speaker 2] (47:00 – 47:00)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (47:01 – 48:11)
So the course, yeah. So you got that academic side and then you got placements where you will, you know, go into different settings. So I worked in a couple of, for two years, yes, I was in NHS.

So I working with patients with dementia. I worked with what you call functional neurological disorders. So people with, you know, all kinds of challenges around things like complex epilepsy, strokes, Parkinson’s.

Yeah. And then and then I worked in psychiatric side as well with a patient with schizophrenia. I worked with a lady with a glioblastoma with only 14 months to live and using music as end of life.

So we ended up doing songwriting and creating this beautiful piece of music where she played the cello on the iPad. And I played guitar if she recorded it. And it was something that she shared with her parents.

[Speaker 2] (48:11 – 48:11)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (48:12 – 48:56)
You know, so you really get deep into the work on placement. You’re doing the work with supervision. So, you know, so you go through lots of supervision and lots of deep reflective practices here where, you know, you’re really being challenged to be critical and reflective about the work, about you.

What are you bringing into the room? You know, and there’s a lot of trauma that you’re covering as well. So you know, the work is deep in terms of the supervision.

And so it really changes you. And I went into it thinking, nah, this is never going to happen. And within a year, you realize, you know, you’re crying, you realize, you know, I never used to cry.

[Speaker 2] (48:57 – 48:59)
Yeah. It’s supposed to be a certain type of person.

[Speaker 1] (48:59 – 49:00)
Sorry.

[Speaker 2] (49:01 – 49:03)
You think you need to be a certain type of person?

[Speaker 1] (49:03 – 49:25)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

You have to be someone that can be deeply reflective and have that eye and empathy, et cetera. So that ability to be reflective and open up and talk. And yeah, not many people.

Yeah. It’s a certain type of person that can do this kind of work. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (49:25 – 49:30)
Maybe I suppose not take your work home with you because then maybe you could get depressed as well.

[Speaker 1] (49:30 – 50:13)
Yeah, absolutely. So there’s a real big part to learning to look after yourself as well. That’s a big part of it that I’d like to understand, you know, all about, you know, your triggers as well and what you’re bringing in and how to do that, what we call self-caring.

You know, how are you going to get rid of that? Because, you know, when you’re doing the work, you’re actually, when you’re becoming that empathetic, you know, you’re actually, as much as you can say, feeling that pain as well. And you’re taking that on.

So you need to clear it somehow, you know, through self-care. And that’s what becomes really important part of the work as well, that self-care.

[Speaker 2] (50:13 – 50:37)
So talking about self-care, because this is women’s radio and we’re always promoting mental health and wellbeing, what do you do to help you switch off so that, you know, you can relax? And I know, I know somebody like me, I find it hard to relax. What do you do to help you relax, to switch off, to recharge your batteries, whatever you want to call it?

[Speaker 1] (50:37 – 53:50)
Yeah, that’s exactly why I call it recharging, you know, self-clearing, really important. So there’s a lot that I do and that I’ve learned. So one of the things, my biggest thing, and there’s something actually, so there’s something I discovered that I’ll share with you and I’ll drop some links into this.

So there’s something called, I monitored something called my HRV, my heart rate variability. And that is, so we all, everyone knows about heart monitors for training and, you know, getting fit and all that kind of stuff. But there’s something called heart rate variability, which is all connected with your, your autonomic nervous system.

And this is all linked into trauma, fight or flight. So we all have this fight or flight response and stress responses. And so I’m not going to get too technical, but essentially the heart rate variability is the only biomarker that measures stress.

So you can literally strap yourself up to like a chest strap and then use an app on your phone and it can tell you just how stressed you are. And so for me, if I’m, if I’m really stressed, I’ve discovered to me the best things for me that I love to do would be to go for a walk. So I live in the country.

So I go out, I walk, you know, as soon as I walk up my door, I’m surrounded by cornfields, by greenery. So I love to just walk for a good hour and then, and then also breathing. One of the biggest things you learn and everyone should learn this, the breathing.

And this is something that Western medicine has now discovered that the yogis knew over 2000 years ago. And this is what we see in this real, what they call this mind body connection coming back. Because Western medicine just always focused on, they’re just medicalised and just given this prescription.

But now they realise stress. The biggest thing you can do for yourself is to breathe. And it has a major impact on your autonomic nervous system.

So the minute that you’re really feeling that stress, simply learning a breathing exercise like breathing in for, breathing in for four and out for six seconds. In for four seconds, out for six. It has major calming effects on the brain and brings…

How slow do you have to do it? So if I was doing it with you, I would say, in two, three, four, out two, three, four, five, six. In two, three, four, out two, three, four, five, six.

And you really feel it through your lungs up and then just empty it at that pace.

[Speaker 2] (53:51 – 53:54)
When you breathe out, do you breathe out through your nose or your mouth?

[Speaker 1] (53:54 – 54:40)
You can breathe in through your nose and breathe out through your mouth. Or you can vary it. But just doing it at that pace, in for four.

And what they’ve scientifically found is that has major calming effect on your whole nervous system. So one of the things I do very often is if I feel really stressed and my heart rate variability showing that I’m stressed, I will always, always do my breathing exercises in the morning and in the evening. And I’ll do that for 20 minutes.

And it really, honestly, you have to try, it really does bring… I couldn’t do it without four o’clock this morning.

[Speaker 2] (54:40 – 55:17)
Do you know what, Angelo, sometimes it’s hard because obviously he’s 30 years old. He’s an adult that’s got minimal verbal skills. But when he’s in that really high sensory, no matter what you try to do, dull the lights or whatever it is, he’s just the high pitch squealing who really gets to you.

And he’s like, it just goes on and on. And then it got to four o’clock this morning and I thought, my brain is going to burst. And I don’t know how it is for him because obviously he can’t tell me.

But that’s the time that I find it really difficult. And obviously you’re at a low ebb at that time.

[Speaker 1] (55:17 – 55:18)
Yes.

[Speaker 2] (55:18 – 55:28)
You’ve been constantly listening to this high pitch squealing, manic laughter. It doesn’t sound like he’s in pain. It just sounds like he’s in ecstasy.

[Speaker 1] (55:28 – 55:30)
Yeah, I get that.

[Speaker 2] (55:30 – 55:41)
And it’s really draining. And when you’re listening to like that, it’s hard to try and relax yourself because you can’t relax him and I can’t sleep unless it’s completely quiet.

[Speaker 1] (55:41 – 56:23)
Well, you’ve hit something else you just mentioned there. And I do this with lots of my pupils and all these breathing exercises this day. They’re able to do that.

And then also, obviously for me, and you just mentioned it as well, sleep is key. So the biggest thing that, you know, within two, three days of not enough sleep event, you’re really starting to hit some real serious things there in your body and your whole autonomic responses. You need sleep.

So these breathing exercises helps a lot to get you to sleep. So I’ll do my breathing exercises. I may try and sleep, you know, try and get your seven, eight hours if you can.

[Speaker 2] (56:24 – 56:28)
It just can’t happen for 30 years. I don’t know how I’m still standing because I don’t know how.

[Speaker 1] (56:28 – 56:30)
Yeah, because it will.

[Speaker 2] (56:30 – 56:34)
It just doesn’t need it. It needs a lot of sleep. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (56:34 – 58:13)
But the body, we do need it somehow if you can get that. So, but for me, so, yeah, the walk in the also green. So there’s something called there’s a Japanese word called shinrin yoku, which means basically forest bathing and human, the human brain.

Our the mammalian brain. We have this mammalian brain that still exists. Even though we have a high prefrontal cortex, you know, we’re obviously highly developed now beyond what animals can do, but we still have this animalistic brain that causes all these stress responses, fight or flight.

And human brain, we are, there’s something called, there’s a term called biophilia. We have this propensity for nature. So because of that, so the minute we go out or we hear water, so we see trees, we see green, it makes us start to relax.

So that is so it’s so important that we just try and tune in to some of these animalistic responses that’s built into our brains. We are built to look at nature, to hear water and start to feel relaxed. So it’s important.

So that’s what I like to do. I get outside, walk, do my breathing, look at nature, even just looking at plants or, you know, people say you’re tree huggers, but there is something in tree hugging and Japanese have a term for it called shinrin yoku, which means forest, which means forest bathing. So those things really, really important.

[Speaker 2] (58:14 – 58:30)
Thank you. We’ve been talking about so many different things today. A fascinating person.

I will have to get you back on again. So I just want to say thank you very much for joining me today. And if people want to follow you, where can they find you?

[Speaker 1] (58:31 – 58:46)
So I’ve just literally just launched my website called Living Well Through Music. And so I’ll put a link in. I’ll share a link for that and then you can find me on Instagram and I’ll share a link with that as well.

[Speaker 2] (58:46 – 58:46)
Oh, brilliant.

[Speaker 1] (58:47 – 58:50)
And then you can get in touch with me through that.

[Speaker 2] (58:50 – 58:52)
You’ll have to write a book.

[Speaker 1] (58:53 – 59:08)
Yeah, I’m actually looking to do that as well. That’s good. The two projects that I’m planning there and I’m working with Dr. Kate Jones on a project around selected mutism. So I’ve done a lot of work.

[Speaker 2] (59:10 – 1:00:07)
Keep me posted. I’m interested in that. Obviously, I’ll love to share it on the charity website.

And we’ll put your website as well on our resources page. But yeah, if anyone’s interested, obviously Alfonso will have an article up on the charity website so you can read all about him and any of the links that he’s spoken about. Once again, I just want to say thank you so much.

Thank you for bringing Akile to us as well. He’s such a lovely young man and also his mother was so lovely. She just really got a lot out of the show as well.

So thank you everybody for listening in and keep following what we’re doing on the charity website. We’re updating the latest news page. So it’s www.anikennedyonline.com.

And if you want to follow Alfonso, it’s Living Well Through Music. And please do. He’s got a lot to offer and a genuinely nice man.

So thank you, Alfonso. Take care of yourself.

[Speaker 1] (1:00:08 – 1:00:09)
Thank you. All the best, Anna.

[Speaker 2] (1:00:10 – 1:00:13)
Thank you. And all the best to everybody. Keep going one day at a time.