[Speaker 2] (0:02 – 4:21)
Hello, this is Anna Kennedy. We’re talking all things autism and I’ve been a little busy bee yet again and people are still talking about autism score talent, which was amazing. Everyone’s still buzzing, messages from families, messages from adults, messages from the audience saying, oh, you’ve just like really motivated my son or you’ve motivated me to want to enter for next year.

So if you’re interested and you want to show us your talent, please, please send in your auditions to www.annakennedyonline.com for 2023. I can’t believe it. We’ve been doing it for 12 years and we’ve had performers from all over the country and overseas.

So send in your auditions. The closing day is May 1st and then October will be our 12th year at the Murmuth Theatre and also I’m collaborating with Daisy Chain and I’m a patron of Daisy Chain and that’s in the Northeast. So they’re also going to be doing autism score talent, the Roadshow.

So we are collaborating together. So if you live in the Northeast and you think you might like to enter and perform at the Global Theatre in Stockton, which is an amazing theatre, I went to visit just a few months ago and it’s lovely. So if you would like to enter, please send in your entries.

So just to remind you www.annakennedyonline.com and all of our information and news, updated news, newsletters, past newsletters is all on the charity website and if you’ve got some resources that you feel that should be on there, please send them to us and we will update the resources page. Talking about resources, just to remind you about the autism passports. I was just talking to a couple of parents about it and it’s just been translated and for Ukrainian families can even imagine what they’re going through in Ukraine.

It’s a passport, it’s a booklet, you can either download it from Autism Angry website or you can actually purchase the book and it costs £1.50 up to £2 I think with postage and packing. Lots of useful information that you can fill out and carry around with you and then you can take it to appointments instead of having to keep repeating yourself. So just to also, this book’s, I’ve had it a little while, but I was sharing it with a couple who, one is neurotypical, one is Asperger’s.

Get it from the Jessica, sorry, Jessica Kingsley Publishers website. It’s called Asperger’s Syndrome and Long-Term Relationship. Really useful book.

So there’s a little quote at the back here saying during her 14 years of marriage to a man with Asperger’s, Stanford has explored many of the intricacies of how the AS condition affects a couple’s relationship. She examines how autism spectrum behaviours may be misinterpreted without a solid awareness of the condition. Stanford’s book provides a wealth of solutions and offers comforting understanding to the increasing number of similar couples by exploring autism spectrum traits.

Step by step she shows how understanding the intentions, motivations and reasons behind certain behaviours can lead to better communication, relief of tension and ultimately to a happier, more mutually fulfilling relationship. Just to remind you the book, it’s called Asperger’s Syndrome and Long-Term Relationships written by Ashley Stanford and available on Jessica Kingsley Publishers website. Lots of useful books on that website.

I have a very, very lovely guest with me today. She’s an executive director of a multi-academy trust of special schools. She’s based in Greater Manchester.

She’s also a member of the advisory panel for Children’s Viewing for the British Board for Film Classification. She has accrued knowledge, skills and experience of what works for children and families from a career spanning higher education, local government and both the European Parliament and the House of Commons. Welcome to you, Dr Shirley Woods Gallagher.

How are you? Thank you very much and very well Anna. It’s good to be here.

Thank you so much. Before we talk about autism, before we talk about anything else, who is Dr Shirley Woods Gallagher? Who are you, Cheryl?

[Speaker 1] (4:21 – 4:52)
Oh wow. I’m a middle aged woman from the north of England. I’m a mum.

I’m a wife. I’m a friend, sister, mother and cousin and I’m very passionate about inclusion and I have been from a super young age. So yeah, that’s kind of me in a nutshell.

Oh, so have you got a family? Do you have any children? Yeah, I’ve got a 15 year old son who’s dyspraxic.

So we’re very new and divergent in our house.

[Speaker 2] (4:53 – 5:01)
So I believe you were diagnosed autistic. If you don’t mind sharing, can you tell me a diagnosed and what was the process like for you?

[Speaker 1] (5:02 – 6:08)
Sure, I was late diagnosed aged 49, just at the start of the pandemic. I’d realised about six months beforehand that I probably was, but it took me six months to refer myself in because it felt such an enormous thing to go through the process and it required an awful lot of unpicking around myself. But it was huge that the week I was diagnosed, it was two days before my dad died of COVID on a COVID ward.

That’s okay. I lived nowhere near my mum and I was in the clinically vulnerable to COVID category. So it wasn’t as though I could pick up the phone and even have a conversation with her on her lived experience on her journey because her world had already been blown apart by her husband dying at the start and me potentially dying before there were vaccinations.

So I think it’s there to say the late dying notice and the processing of it was a real slow burn in my birth family.

[Speaker 2] (6:09 – 6:23)
So if people are listening in and think that it might be on the spectrum, what was the process like for you? Because I know it’s different from everyone also it depends on the area where you live. So what would people need to do?

So did you go to your GP first? How did you approach it?

[Speaker 1] (6:24 – 8:53)
I’m very lucky where I live in my bit of greater Manchester and you can actually self-refer. So I filled in the self-referral forms and as anyone who goes through the process, you get triads reasonably quickly at that stage because you kind of want to screen you in or out for further assessment and there are over 60 questions to ask you and if you have a score of around 18 out of this particular tool you’re considered not to be autistic. If you score 33 or more you’re screened in they probably are going to assess it and I scored 44 and actually because the pandemic then began that was in the February they phoned me up and said would I be willing to do it all over the phone on WhatsApp video rather than needing to be in a clinic and I did and we did it that way.

So in a weird way the pandemic probably sped up my late diagnosis. So did they have to go through your background? Did they have to speak to you mum?

No I think because I was 49 at the time and I was able to recall all kinds of history around my own childhood because I’ve got such a great photographic memory that there was more than enough you know that I used to climb out of the cart, I used to be sensory seeking and go around sitting on everyone’s knees as a toddler looking for a cold earlobe to hold while I was at my phone. I would refuse to read certain things, I would chop the ends off certain things, I would push people away and say I do it myself, I had difficulties with speech but in hindsight when you look back you kind of go oh that was quite obvious and I felt very very different when I was four when I started school but I didn’t have an understanding of why I was different at four, I just knew I was different.

Got any siblings? Yeah I’ve got two older brothers. Then how did you get on with them?

I think it’s fair to say they didn’t want a little sister tagging along behind them and this was the 70s after all so you’ve got a whole heap of misogyny thrown in there as well and I wasn’t a typical little sister I was like a tomboy one and I did have you know my quite obvious in hindsight you were a divergence that made it really the embarrassing little sister so yeah they didn’t really have much to do with me until I became a much older teenager.

[Speaker 2] (8:54 – 9:02)
So did your mum when you were growing up did she thought you’d see anybody because she thought oh I’m not quite sure you know I don’t need any support here?

[Speaker 1] (9:04 – 9:51)
No she just accepted it in the in the 70s and if you think about my kind of my mum and my dad’s generation my dad would have been 80 this year you know they were war babies when they were sort of like born during the second world war both you know both sets of grandparents were involved with the war on both sides of my family on the front line whether it was nursing or in the armed services so I just think there was a kind of you know get on with it and she’s a bit different but we just get on with it and it was sort of like that’s surely that’s that’s just how she is which in a way is accepting but in another way it kind of meant that I learned at a very new age that I was completely socially unacceptable.

[Speaker 2] (9:52 – 10:20)
Okay so I was going to talk to you about school so what was it like for you because sometimes I’ve spoken to families where their kids just about cling on if you like at primary school and then once they get to secondary school that’s when the difficulty started when you know they’re going from classroom to classroom and homework there’s just so many things that you know a child who’s maybe on the spectrum finds difficult so can you remember what you found easy and what you found difficult?

[Speaker 1] (10:21 – 12:29)
So I thought my years of being in an infant school I found easier because we were non-uniform where we were a groping wiggens so I could go in any combination of outfit I put together however it locked off out and that was brilliant for me but I hated the school dinners and I used to give them away to have a young girl called Catherine who was very starving next to me every day and that felt like the right thing to do as well he was a five-year-old but then when we moved to Preston when I was in my junior school years I found that incredibly hard because we had a pee kit we had a school uniform that was a traditional shirt and tie we had to wear pencils inside for walking around with the wooden floors we had picking shoes for outside and I found that very restrictive but I could take a packed lunch so I finally ate lunch but then the transition to secondary school I mean to say I went and bared it would be a bit of an understatement I hated all of the transition points between classes I did not understand the whole social communication aspect the dating side of it the very strange friendship cliques and then those days thankfully in the early 80s you could go home for lunch and I lived around the corner from secondary school so I used to literally be home within two minutes and literally watch rainbow neighbors and the solvents in that order and exactly that order and then go back to school and how is that I don’t think I could not have coped with the county that much time at all all the playground did you make any friends at all I’m kind of I was friends with the people who sat next to me or need to me yeah when I left school there was you know literally no one’s queuing to sign your shirt on the last day or anything like that and it did get bullied from older year groups for being quote unquote weird and strange I hate bullying I’m just like oh

[Speaker 2] (12:29 – 12:48)
yeah speaking to somebody who’s being bullied and now because they video it and put it on TikTok I just can’t understand anything like that why would you want to do that it’s just like no no no what what what subjects were you good at and what subjects were you not so good at and what

[Speaker 1] (12:48 – 14:05)
subjects did you really like um I really liked history I thought it was really really interesting I still to this day don’t understand chemistry just literally don’t understand one single word of chemistry just goes in one ear and out of you yeah well I used to really enjoy maths and doing this sort of the equation side of it and it was quite straightforward right right or wrong and I was spectacularly bad at PA and then I’ve never had an assessment for dyspraxia but I wouldn’t be surprised if I didn’t have a profile that included that I still can’t throw in the catch and it’s like it’s like the family joke with my husband and son now when I’m wrong I look like Phoebe your friends you know that’s me you know I am no natural sports person and I was always the last to be picked for sport so but I was saying PE was absolutely shocking at high school because it’s just like a popularity contest isn’t it it’s never put me off fencing I love you know fencing with foils and sabers I go running I go to the gym I love hiking I will have a go at cricket I’ll be the worst person you’ve ever met on your team but I’m having a laugh doing it and I just um so you know if anyone’s thinking top tips I used to hate cross country because

[Speaker 2] (14:05 – 14:18)
you used to make you do it in any weather yeah why are we doing this remind me why we’re doing this so um how was exams being prepared for exams did you did you get through them okay

[Speaker 1] (14:18 – 15:20)
I think get through is that is the phrase I used to have so much incredible anxiety about exams and I always used to sit on the bedroom floor was felt grounded sat on the floor rather than a chair and I would try and get all everything that I needed done because I was the last year that did all levels so there was no assessment it was that endpoint exam yeah and I would memorise it photographically on a page what I needed to just regurgitate within the exam but I would be a car crash and I got so superstitious about my my school jump that I took it in all the way through to my finals of my university degree that I needed that jump with me because that was my looking thing and I needed four big barrels because they were also lucky tools but I was like car crash um but I you know it was kind of like at the time it was kind of expected that seven point assessments and cramp cramp cramp and I look back now and I think you could come in at least you said you used to literally throw ups outside the examples with

[Speaker 2] (15:20 – 15:40)
yeah I remember out my GCSEs and all the rest of it that was in 1976 when it was so hot it was just we still had to wear our uniforms and everything it was just so hot in the hall that was one thing I remember I hated it um so what so after you finished your exams did you go

[Speaker 1] (15:40 – 17:46)
into college what did you do yeah I went I went to an FE college because there was no sixth forms where I live and that and because it was such a big FE college for people all over Preston there were loads of other young people who didn’t know anyone there or didn’t have any allegiance says um and there were clubs and societies around interests so a great passion of mine then was kind of like the environment and also I found out that something called apartheid existed and I was absolutely disgusted so I set up an anti-apartheid group at my college and I’ve met some friends then they’re still my friends now she is later so I kind of think school was an absolute right offer for things like that but at college you had a commonality of interest and it’s interesting I’ve spoken to my late diagnosis to those people who found me you know at 16 and they were like oh you were you were always quite quirky you were always quite out there but you were always a very kind person and you were always massively intelligent and caring for others and looking back it’s kind of obvious now but none of us knew anything yeah there’s no information in the public domain in the mid 80s also no not at all nothing at all so from college did you go to uni I did and then went on to university yeah to do an graduate degree and a bit like college you could huddle around interests yeah mine was all about campaigning about everything and social justice and I really enjoyed going out and socializing and more so the dancing and listening to music and just going right I put my drink down in the nightclub and I danced for three hours because I can’t I can see in my head the choreography of the dances that I’m doing and I’ve made lots of friends there and yeah I met my husband in my final year in university it was great but the first few weeks we’d read for I remember going to freshers events and just being mute and people saying say something and me just shook my shoulders and literally not having the first clue of anything to say yeah yeah my

[Speaker 2] (17:46 – 17:58)
husband when he went to university because he’s got Asperger’s and diagnosed 2012 and he hated like that you know when you start university and you’ve got all these like get to know each other

[Speaker 1] (17:58 – 18:12)
oh he couldn’t think about it I still can’t think of anything worse than someone saying oh here’s a social a social event good luck with that I’ll be busy washing my hair though

[Speaker 2] (18:12 – 19:23)
yeah I remember as well when he was um Trainsby’s Liston and a Barristan you had to go to so many dinners and you had to go there to get your points and um you could take a guess so he used to take me and we just used to eat really quickly and then he found his name at the register and then he dragged me out like because he had to do it so it was just like but yeah I remember going to quite a few notice why I was going to these things so um how old were you did you say you were 49 when you were diagnosed I was totally honest I’ve known some 51 now so it’s been a bit of a whirlwind so why did you feel did you think right I think I need to go through the process because that this is a few things that I’ve spoken to adults before and they’ve gone to the jp and they just said why do you want to diagnose because you’ve got through life for this long why do you feel that you need to have it oh yeah oh I’ve had that debate with my GP yeah yeah people say I just want to know I know I just feel like I just want to know I don’t want to do anything with it I just want to know so how was it for you why did you want to um go through yeah so then the penny

[Speaker 1] (19:23 – 21:03)
started to drop looking at EHCP needs assessment autistic girls in my job and I kept thinking yeah yeah yeah that’s normal yeah that’s not as I’m gonna I could have been there I think about autistic oh my god I’m autistic so it was an almighty kind of wow how would you ever deny this to myself wow this is huge and this genetic isn’t it autism so I’m not the only one in the family either so but as I said to the GP after I’d been diagnosed because I just wanted to know if it was on the sister she says well why is it important I’m gonna I think it’s someone in the 60s who’s come and requested what’s the point you’ve got through your career when you’re missing the whole point it’s about well-being so my whole life I’ve always thought I experienced certain levels of anxiety you name an angry book at their podcast video on anxiety I have read it you you name books on depression and I have read them and actually I now know that an awful lot of what I thought was anxiety is sensory difference and sensory overload and that knowledge is power and that knowledge is really power enables me to make really really healthy informed choices about how I’m able to navigate myself in a world that isn’t always designed for sensory difference and that’s really really more well-being is really really important the NHS is full of well-being know yourself take better care of yourself and that includes knowing more about how your brain functions so for me I always say it’s the greatest well-being so I have ever had in my entire life and that everyone should be allowed to self-regulating self-care

[Speaker 2] (21:04 – 21:09)
do you think the public find it harder to acknowledge someone who’s autistic that is

[Speaker 1] (21:09 – 23:37)
articulate as you I I get I mean you’re gonna cringe now and so are people listening but I have I’ve had everything like what you you don’t quote look autistic which I always sit back in my chair and go help me understand someone who is autistic looks like and I don’t fill that gap for them I just sit my way or I get the but I didn’t know you were autistic you hide it so well so yeah I do think it is fair to say the public have some well not all the publics that’s a grotesque generalisation but some people have some really bizarre ill-informed ideas about what it means to be autistic and you know technically my my diagnosis says Ashburn just but I would never bother you know I would absolutely cost myself has been there because I play a broad community a fabulous neurodivergent people and our allies and we’re stronger together well better when we link arms and I won’t I refuse to other I refuse for anyone to say but you’re one of the the bright ones or the high functioning ones because they don’t know what I’ve been through they don’t they don’t know what I have chosen to articulate or share or not if I if I just give an example of a sensory difference in pregnancy I almost died having my son so I’ve got an overstretched heart valve because my blood pressure was so high not just having him but in the aftermath afterwards yeah and he was born five weeks early as a result and my liver was failing and my kidneys were failing yeah and I was put on an award and I ended up experiencing PTSD symptoms in supermarkets 12 months afterwards by the lighting thinking I’m back on the operating table yeah that’s right I’m strapped at my shoulders my elbows my ankles my wrists to stop me from fitting while I had them and I think what I thought was some sensory overload yeah if I was experienced that’s completely undocumented anywhere till I’ve gone back to my GP and said okay 40 years a year later do we not think behind me to update my record do we not think we might need to let the hospital yeah you know same line in my son’s life know some of this because it’s not planned into maternity care at the moment

[Speaker 2] (23:37 – 23:42)
is there actually a book on autism and pregnancy because to be fair I haven’t really seen one of you

[Speaker 1] (23:42 – 24:01)
no but I am writing a book I think one thing I like about reading so much through this is like there were massive gaps where the the old female experience around child childbirth perimenopause menopause and others is just undocumented territory because it’s not been

[Speaker 2] (24:01 – 25:20)
in the lancer or something I’d say almost like it’s taboo yeah oh totally yeah that’s good though that yeah I think that’s good I think that’s what you should do because I haven’t seen I’m not saying that they aren’t that out there but I haven’t physically seen a book on autism and pregnancy so because I had a difficult pregnancy with both my boys I clampsy and toxemia for both of them it was just like body is just not meant to be pregnant yeah I had Patrick really really early like uh weeks um early so he was only three pounds and then Angela I was in hospital for like the last sort of 11 12 weeks of my pregnancy it was just awful so yeah so we’ve touched on sensory differences let’s elaborate on that because I know that a lot of public that are out there that are not familiar with autism that how sensory difference can really impact like I was just chatting to you just before we came on just to say that my son Angelo it was quite profoundly autistic you know got really more verbal skills had really real huge sensory overload this morning and it took some time for him to calm down so I just don’t think a lot of the public understand how it can impact on our children and on our adults so can we sort of talk a little bit and elaborate on that

[Speaker 1] (25:21 – 29:33)
sure so I mean I deliberately shared on the social media platform the other week here’s a sensory cracker walk around with at work and deliberately like which I know would blow the minds of some people I used to work with who you know only just recently find out more artistic and that that that was one of the probably the most commented on posts I’ve had from really seeing new people and other organizations where I said here are my earbuds and I can cancel all noise out because I’ve got bionic ears so I can’t just hear your conversation with me in a busy train station I can hear everything I can hear the brakes on the trains I can hear the people in the kitchens in the cafes I can hear every conversation and I can’t disaggregate it I really wish I could and that the fluorescent lights in somewhere can trip the migraine for me so you know I look like I’m trying to do the corner of oak I’m walking around in shades in places because that that works for me and then I have such a strong gag reflex people can think I’m rude if I go in the gym or something it’s the ones in its valley and I would literally be sick or I’ll gag so I’m very often it’s like I’m a Victorian lady I walk round with essentials or bits of perfume in my hands or in a kickback and I rub them on the back of my hands put them under my nose to try and override a gag reflex from from that and also I’ve got parts of my body that if you just touch them even slightly convulse such as the degree of sensitivity around it so I can go I can get off a train and think god this has been bad but I’m taking care of myself I’ve got earbuds on I’ve got you know I’m smelling my perfume things I’ve got my shades on and I’ve been reading whatever and I would get off somewhere at a train station and it’s like bam I’ve been I’ve been published from all sides because of the lights the sounds the smells and just the sheer unpredictability of all the different directions everyone’s walking in it’s hell I know so even when I do all that my arms will come out to almost be tucked in at my elbows and my arms will start flapping right until I’ve left the train station even with shades earbuds perfume and it’s and it’s and now I think god I look so autistic and then I think yeah because I am and that’s okay and that’s okay and if people are looking and gawping at me I’d rather they did it to me than they were doing it to a young child who’s trying to navigate the way through life so yeah that’s just you know one example and I’ve started saying to people now I’m really sorry I know you really really want to meet in the city centre or you really want to do something somewhere I can’t do that I’m not going to force myself to do that this is where I can meet you and these are the reasons why so which type of places you meet in like coffee shops or like the smaller ones yeah yeah small ones quieter ones ones where it’s a bit more less urbanized I mean if I come down say to London for that British border film classification I’m all right because it’s a five o’clock train six quiet at the minute I get off London Houston there is no way I’m going on the London Underground I’m almost dark with my arms flapping out shades on buds on the works which doesn’t really fit with the London Houston crowd and dark straight for the black cabs and getting the black cabs so I’m square because I can cope with that me is one driver the windows are down fresh yeah I can cope with that do you drive I do I do I used to I used to for years get the training and out of Manchester and I look back now and I say my god I used to be so stressed by the time I landed at my desk so stressed I never really knew why and now it makes complete sense and the first time started driving around it was like how relaxed am I whenever I do work and it’s just me completely controlling the the temperature the lighting the smells everything within the car and it kills me because it’s so environmentally friendly at the same time I have a real conflict so it’s not very environmentally friendly but it is for me in a way so what kind of jobs have you had in the past and what

[Speaker 2] (29:33 – 29:38)
worked for you as a job and what didn’t work for you as a job yeah I kind of think rather than the

[Speaker 1] (29:38 – 30:42)
role itself what really worked for me was company culture right and so I would say the first time I felt home at home at work was when I just turned 30 and I got a job at the city council in Manchester and it was all about a social model of inclusion because we just got the commonwealth games funding city after the IRA bombing and it was just you know it was just some inclusive the whole workplace when it came to race and sexuality gender identity it was well than starting somewhere and people thinking she’s a bit weird or a bit of a geek or a bit of a swat or a bit strange and she works too fast we have to tell her to slow down which is what people used to say to me other jobs they actually went oh my god where did we find you you’re brilliant and it was the first time I would say in my life at age Thursday anyone of that she said oh my god you’re brilliant you’re on our team we come with us and crack on with all these different jobs

[Speaker 2] (30:42 – 31:23)
you’re brilliant the first time I felt included oh that’s good I like to hear things like that that’s really good that’s like my son’s really settled where he works and absolutely thought prime workplace which is because they just get him and they like when they know when he needs time out and when he needs to maybe go for a walk or it’s been there for four years now and um yeah I know they’ve been bringing it with him I just can’t thank them enough for you know he’s got good days he had bad days but they just know him so well there so so long you said you were like him on a member of the advisory panel for children viewing the british board of film classification what does that actually mean it means that we we go

[Speaker 1] (31:23 – 32:49)
down to London three times a year and they talk us through classifications of various films that are for a you know aged 18 and every time we have a meeting we’ll watch one film where it’s a bit of a gray area okay and we will we’ve all have training in this is what this is what say violence or swearing would look like for a PG or a you or a 12 or 12 a or a 15 all right so and then we talk about those particular areas and then we also talk about current things we’re all watching at the moment as well but I absolutely love it I’ve always been very passionate about film um and it was it was an online interview again during the pandemic and I was thinking oh they’re not going to want me you know having to do it over the phone you know because we had problems with wi-fi connections in the p district that day and you know and I had all this imposter syndrome I’ve just been diagnosed autistic I bet they google that and I bet they don’t want me but they’ll be polite about it they were the complete opposite and they couldn’t be more um like really empowered and embracing you know great you’re from the north of england great you’re from a you know a lower socioeconomic background great you’re autistic you want you’re on our team because representation matters so I love it I absolutely love Patrick who’s the chief executive at BBSC he’s so inclusive you’ve got quite an impressive um

[Speaker 2] (32:50 – 33:07)
bio here that you’ve written so you’ve got uh the doctors in political science but you also supervised um social work dissertations for students to completion and develop the concept for health and social care apprenticeship degrees so what’s that all about yeah

[Speaker 1] (33:10 – 34:45)
I always say if you have to know remind my dad my experience my lived experience of autism it’s big heart and big brain um so the political science was I got to my through my undergraduate degree and I struggled on that transition into work because I just didn’t understand the world of work and so I carried on studying alongside working um and then as part of my work in Manchester you could see that was really good at innovation works you could literally you know like roll me a ball and go here’s the subject you know nothing and go and find out about it and I would go big go home do that big analysis stuff come back and say this is what we could do differently in the social work space and they trusted me with that so yeah I was seconded into a university to do some reform on social work degrees and I was asked to look at some of the crises that we’ve got in health and social care right and level three qualifications and how could they apply to apprenticeship degrees and that’s how we would be born out the health and social care apprenticeship degree work which is now one of the most successful and then you do and it’s part of the Mary Seacole on HS leadership program as well so I’m very proud of the way that some of the kernels of some of the things we’ve kicked around as ideas have then you know gone really really big and that’s so I tell everyone that I say you knew what I did before you knew it was autistic so if it said autistic on my job description you know my job application now right at the top don’t you don’t scream people out because think of the talent you’re screening out so I’ll always select that one round and I know what I’ve known a long time now.

[Speaker 2] (34:46 – 35:04)
So talking about education because obviously you’ve got a background in education obviously because you’re the executive director of Multicademy Trust at special schools how did you get into that and what can schools do better for our autistic children?

[Speaker 1] (35:06 – 39:06)
Yeah I’ve been in the sort of the field of send for about four or five years now very passionate about about inclusion I always have been just through this particular prism and it was it’s really there’s a lot we could say about send green paper and the reforms come with the implementation of them but I genuinely you know children get one shot at their education and one shot at the childhood and it’s really important they have an inclusive experience that builds on their strengths and that springboards them onto a meaningful future whatever that means for them and whatever’s right for them and so yeah I’m very proud I work for a Multicademy Trust we’ve got 11 sites across two bits of Greater Manchester for about 1700 students aged from 4 to 31 and quite a lot of them have an autism diagnosis.

Yeah well we’ve got one particular school our Hollywood Academy which is purely an autism diagnosis for children aged 4 to 19 but we’ve also got autism resource spaces within some of our other schools and our learning centre and our adult daycare provision as well and so yeah you can there’s plenty we can do in this space and there’s plenty around inclusion but I do think mainstream schools really really do need to do far more on inclusion and especially after the pandemic the amount of dysregulation around our children and young people returning post pandemic with sensory overload with social communication issues with gaps in early years because everything was closed in their formative years is huge. I was at a DFE conference a couple of weeks ago and they were saying in the last three years alone the expenditure behind this block for SEND has gone up by 31% which is huge which is huge and but the rhetoric at the same time is you know less special schools more in mainstream and you know less need you know more mediation less tribunals for education health and care plans but certainly when you’re in the specialist sector what you will often then say are families who’ve had I’m sure you’ll appreciate this in your viewers are real fine just to get the basics in place and that’s that’s just not good enough and we’ve also done some really big conferences in Greater Manchester with the Mayor Andy Burnham a couple of weeks ago he’s got an old traffic football ground and we kind of laid down the gauntlet and said well we can we can work really really hard with our students to try and get them work ready but work has to be ready for inclusion as well so then the national unemployment rate for adults who are disabled and with their LD or autism diagnosis is five percent which is it’s well it’s just a disgrace isn’t it it’s not a particular bit of right advantage to two percent but our trust overall we’re on 20 so we’re proud that we’re doing some things really really right and in our social emotional mental health provision we’re on 60% in paid employment so we’re very proud but it’s not all of the young people and we want all that employment and internships and apprenticeships and higher education whatever that pathway is to be sustained beyond them being with us in our trust because we’re you know we’re 1700 children young people in Greater Manchester alone there are 25,000 children and young people on education helping care plans and DFE say that the SEND register which was always 10% of the education population for years is now currently on the 15% on the SEND register and we know not everyone who has need will necessarily be on that register.

[Speaker 2] (39:07 – 39:26)
No I’m just going to say that very frustrating do you think it’s got worse since the pandemic when it’s over do you think everything do you think everything’s you know been a lot of cuts that have been going on and you know first let’s say first people to get the money cut is usually disability.

[Speaker 1] (39:28 – 40:29)
Yeah I would say I mean today and I’ve published it online and I can send the link round to a Greater Manchester disabled people survey that was undertaken during the summer and it’s the largest one of its kind we’ve had in the UK for a while and this was before the economies tanked in the last month with the you know the various changes and prime ministerial changes and you know 60% of disabled people are worried about how they’re going to eat how they’re going to heat the houses they’ve changed how they’re living they’ve experienced it’s got seven 27% of left work because of disabling barriers at work and this is before winters are really upon us so yeah the cost of living crisis is creating a real real impact with hungry children hungry young children and how we can tolerate that as a society has been good enough for our young bodies still growing and our young minds still growing just burns my mind.

[Speaker 2] (40:30 – 41:31)
It’s just like it’s a degree it’s a disgrace a national disgrace that we have hungry children and we’re going to be cold as well in the winter because it’s like they’re deciding when they need to put the heating on or the it’s just like what what is happening we need some stability in this world as I keep saying and yeah it’s just like it’s just we’re in a scary world at the minute and I’ve said that if I was young and I was to have a child I’m not quite sure if I would have a child at this time because I just think it’s too scary the world everything that’s going on you know cost of living our government is just like what’s going on what is going on but hey because we’re living in a in a in a in turmoil what do you do to help you relax so we’re all about mental health and well-being on women’s radio station so what do you as you know I like dancing and exercising walking so what do you like to do to help you relax and just be sure not mom

[Speaker 1] (41:31 – 42:10)
not worried I think there are a number of things one thing I like doing is going for a walk and I live in the bee district so it’s easy to get out and have a good walk and if I find that my mind’s racing I really like listening to desert island discs yeah I like having that little window into oh so what’s influenced you and oh what works would you take a while while I’m doing that I’ve really I’ve really got into cooking during lockdown whether I eat it or not is completely incidental but I find something very relaxing about here’s a recipe right you need to time a few things you need to need to cook something right I’m a big sensory thinker so I’m all over

[Speaker 2] (42:10 – 42:40)
the perfume counters for me perfume it triggers migraines for me I cannot go anywhere near a perfume cabinet I remember I went to Harrods once and I walked through I had the worst migraine for four days oh wow going to die it was just yeah so for me it’s very very light perfume I use it for myself but I just can’t walk through perfume departments so hey different for you then I always go to the gym

[Speaker 1] (42:40 – 43:02)
generally go to the gym four or five times a week um although I can’t walk through the door and think I’m rolling my eyes at myself I’m always feeling a lot better within half an hour and the end of things thinking and yeah I do not look like I’m in love island like half the people in there but I think you know what they’ll just swing them in town I’ve shown up you know

[Speaker 2] (43:03 – 44:21)
yeah my husband’s like that he likes to go early in the morning like he goes six o’clock he leaves the house because he doesn’t like it when there’s a lot of people there he’s not in all this posh gym gear he just wears a raggy old black t-shirt and black john that’s what he likes he likes to go at that time because there’s only one in there he said he can’t bear all these poses I’m in there at 5 30 for exactly that reason yeah it’s whatever rocks you bought so yeah as I say it’s important for us to take time out and you probably know that I’ve got the campaign take five because parents have got kids on the spectrum tend to sometimes forget about themselves and they need that time out you don’t want to have burnout and I’ve spoken to quite a few parents recently that have had burnout because they’re so focused on their children trying to juggle jobs trying to juggle everything that’s going on as you’re talking about the cost of living it’s just a bit stressful so whatever it is that you can do you know just have with a glass of wine if you’re into that or a few candles or whatever it is that rocks your book and you could just be you not think of anything even if it’s for five minutes it’s just to sort of settle yourself if you like put your own yeah

[Speaker 1] (44:21 – 44:26)
not shaky ground so it’s like you post those videos of dancing don’t you

[Speaker 2] (44:29 – 45:10)
I think I’m going to say or whatever I’m not but yeah I think they want to do someone’s going to walk in the office when I’m doing it oh dear but who cares you know when you get you get to a certain age you just look I don’t care you don’t like it so I was just going to ask you know when you’re diagnosed so late because I’ve spoken to individuals as well how did your family take it thank you mom your husband because I have spoken to some where they’ve said oh they just think no I can’t see it you know I don’t know why you’ve done that type of thing oh well you always thought of something but so so what was the reaction if you don’t mind sharing no it’s fine I think it’s fair to say

[Speaker 1] (45:10 – 47:07)
it’s been a very mixed bag okay my husband knew it was massive for me to go and get late diagnosed right and I didn’t tell my parents I was getting late diagnosed because they needed for me every day worried and I thought I can’t manage their anxiety of my own yeah so I told my uncle Philip who’d taken my aunt Marianne for her late diagnosis so he knew the system yeah so they were on they were on page if you look at me no longer it’s possible he’s a bit like yes not surprised um so my son we were we were honest about being at a late diagnosis but they’re so different they’re age groups so you know he’s dyspraxic half his friends are autistic dyspraxic dyslexic right you know what I mean people are gender neutral gender fluid it’s a very very open-minded scumbit ghost it could be quite complicated yes and he didn’t but and I know he was a bit like yeah mom come on it’s kind of obvious isn’t it yes I mean he was literally but you’re so autistic how can no one not realize this about you so he had great insight I think it’s fair to say my mom’s been on a learning journey because and probably because it was mixed with grief not seeing me shielded she was very much like um how could I not you know I couldn’t have known psychology didn’t exist when you were younger this didn’t exist when you were younger and I had to have been no one needs to apologize we didn’t know what we didn’t know you know what I mean no one could have known what we didn’t know at the time and the important thing is just having compassion for where I am right now and moving forward but I think it’s fair to say my older brother and him his or eldest brother and his wife seem to have had a how would I delicately call this a strange reaction right a strange reaction where it’s kind of um but unbelieved um and I’ve always been dramatic kind of and it’s kind of gaslit of something else so I just have to have healthy boundaries around that okay so everyone’s got a family member who’s late diagnosed out there listening to this thinking

[Speaker 2] (47:07 – 47:23)
amen I know you mean my family yeah um I know some people that once they were diagnosed some of them that they’re older they’ve lost friends through it and I just think well why she’s not she hasn’t changed she’s not any different it’s just I have had those conversations with one friend

[Speaker 1] (47:23 – 48:04)
where I wasn’t I didn’t see it come in and we were sat around a campfire and it was a wagging finger on my face from someone I’ve known for 25 years going I’m really angry at your therapist and you know you know that kind of going it’s pitchfork from the last around around the campfire I’m looking behind me going have a mist have a mist where the fight is here why are you angry I’m angry that they diagnosed you autistic how dare they I know and I I had to really compose myself and just go I am proud of my identity and I have compassion for the journey that I’ve been on so how dare you think it’s just for anyone to just give me the comfort and helping me know myself better

[Speaker 2] (48:04 – 48:44)
and I just remove myself from the situation okay so um yeah I have known somewhere they’ve lost friends and I find that quite sad even like um with reference to vaccinations that so many people just like you know what time friendships are like 20 30 years and you know because they’ve obviously got a difference for finish just accept you know that we both think differently but we don’t certainly not I just don’t get it why people fall out over things like this but hey that’s to them so if you could look back and look at if you could have done things differently what what do you think that you would have done differently do you think might put a diagnosis earlier do you think it was the right time now

[Speaker 1] (48:44 – 50:25)
I kind of think you can’t change what’s been and gone can I can’t change any of that and you know and you and I sat up and I like a late diagnosis courtroom where I lived and you could see that we could all get tied up in knots on an individual things that might you know are trauma for autistic children when you look back in hindsight and I just decided to make peace with myself so I decided to sit down one day with a piece of paper and write for you or me a letter and it took ages to write and it’s probably one of the shortest letters I’ve ever written in my life but then I’m just thinking why we’re finding it so hard to be compassionate to myself where does that come from and actually this is a really great learning opportunity around self-compassion so I I am I’ve even said I don’t think I get picked up now I don’t think I would have been picked up in primary school because I would have been the quote shy girl who’s a bit strange who talks to the adults more than children but she was delivering really really high academic work therefore she wouldn’t get any agency peace so we won’t bother with it because she’s not worth the funding I genuinely believe that wouldn’t be picked up I think if I was being picked up now it would be a very confused 10 year old me 12 year old me googling things on tiktok on youtube and finding videos and going that’s me right that’s me and me telling the adults around me that I think I’m autistic what do you think of social media that’s just a mixed bag isn’t it yeah it’s a mixed bag it’s like a double-edged sword isn’t it on the one hand you can find lots of great empowering information and on the other oh my god there’s some serious trolls out there

[Speaker 2] (50:25 – 50:54)
there are some really serious trolls just speaking to um a parent a few days ago um as I was saying about you know bullying and what have you and it’s just like it seems like anything goes on there it’s just like some really nasty stuff I’ve seen where parents have shared it with me or individuals have shared it with me it can have a really long knock on effect on that individual and I just say block block them just don’t think with them just block them as I said no no

[Speaker 1] (50:54 – 51:50)
oxygen and publicity yeah you know I got trolled online I did buy a welfare rights officer of all people and not all I posted was end of this end of the term so proud of the students the trustees everyone go enjoy you know your son it was literally that innocuous and someone on a block delete you’ve recorded it you um you are normal you are normalizing autism and most autistic people work you need to stop all right screenshot deal with this block deliver so then I thought I’m going to own that so I had a t-shirt made that says normalizing autism certain environments now it’s going yeah I am I am good and if I make people feel a little bit uncomfortable it needs to feel a little bit uncomfortable someone you’ve seen yeah and not in a horrible way good because it kicks the doors through for more vulnerable children and young people

[Speaker 2] (51:51 – 52:01)
so what what other stuff are you doing to contribute to the autism community would you say that you’re doing and what would you like to do one of the big things was I did a big hustle

[Speaker 1] (52:01 – 53:27)
around greater Manchester combined authority to put on that working skills conference deliberately and I could have just done that and just talked about all the fantastic students and what we can do and I did that to a point and then halfway through I just had a big slide that said a bit of the biopic is is a bit of my career you know European parliament baby I’ve seen various lovely photographs and things and I’m going why am I telling you this why is it really really boring and then we went to the next slide it was a giant selfie of me in a t-shirt that says woke up autistic again I’m born anxious and I just looked out the audience now and I pretty much did because I believe in badass leadership honest to God the faces of some of the people sat there were not expecting it because they were not expecting it so I just think stuff like that in a public environment or even if it’s day to day with our students walking around going I’m autistic too and I do this job what do you want to do in life let’s make it happen for you just that representation is just so incredibly powerful and everywhere I go now I must get three or four things a week where someone tells me about I think my husband my wife my child my son my friends autistic can you help me or I’m from you know the latest one was I didn’t I didn’t work out so I’ve got in contact with me I’m nowhere near Edinburgh we want to continue a divergent in employment policy can we talk to someone said that you know what we need to do so just everything like that yeah the people want to find people on

[Speaker 2] (53:27 – 53:32)
social media or find them with our website or a blog where can they find you yeah they can find

[Speaker 1] (53:32 – 53:59)
me on LinkedIn I have an open profile on there and I link various things to podcasts videos blogs on there and at the moment I am in the process of writing the book as well which isn’t a text I’ve said to everyone it’s not a textbook it’s not all the facts and figures it’s just capturing essences and life stages of my lived experience of autism with a real think of it there and I always say I rock my autistic identity like a cool pair of boots

[Speaker 2] (53:59 – 54:31)
and that’s the title of my book all right that’s a good one I hope that you’re going to send me copy oh yeah now can I ask you I mean you probably know I’ve got a petition going around at the minute yeah I got over 12 000 signatures I thought it might get more actually but hey maybe I need to push it a little bit more but um a lot of parents that I talk to the question at the back of their mind is who’s going to look after my son or my daughter or my one when I’m no longer around

[Speaker 1] (54:31 – 55:21)
so does that absolutely resonates for those we we have a provision um for our younger adults um once they reach 19 and their education health care plans end and they become health and care plans and we are the biggest fighters around transition what’s the plan around transition and the fact that I’ve worked in social care in a local authority really helps us as a position as a trust around really putting some challenging support into what is the long-term planning around that so yeah I completely back your campaign because you know our fantastic young adults will become middle-aged young adults and parents and carers need full support and to have that assurance that you know the fabulous grown-up children are going to have a fantastic life when they’re no

[Speaker 2] (55:21 – 55:34)
longer here are there many books out there for that people have written that are a lot older and autistic sort of in their 60s 70s I’ve seen people to kind of do small blogs don’t they and

[Speaker 1] (55:34 – 56:04)
then share them and they have like readerships of a hundred things like that I’ve seen stuff like that I genuinely think that one of the best books I’ve read is autism in adults by a little reading he’s amazing he’s great and that’s it that’s a great one but that’s part of the spare on that I wanted to write a book myself because it’s like I’m looking for a book I’ve found older women like diagrams you didn’t mean that had children and didn’t there when you know what I mean and so forth and there’s nothing I thought I’m gonna do it myself

[Speaker 2] (56:05 – 56:17)
well that sounds good I don’t see why not so what what were the things that you want to achieve in your life we’ve still got a few minutes left so have you got like a bucket list of stuff

[Speaker 1] (56:17 – 56:46)
that you still want to do my biggest bucket list would be and that my you know that my child’s happy I think all parents would say this wouldn’t they go back to your position that my son you know gets through his GCSEs his next phase of college and whatever he wants and that my big bucket list is like can we just sort out the economy so everyone can eat and stay warm you know my bucket list is quite minimal at the minute I’ll be happy with that

[Speaker 2] (56:47 – 57:19)
so can I ask you how do you find holidays because I’ve just recently spoken to my son as well talking about going on holiday and he’s now talking about he’s always been on holiday in this country so he’s now talking about going on his own abroad and it just like fills me with like you know because yeah you know it doesn’t matter how old your your board is you know whether they’re 10 15 20 30 you still worry about them so so what what’s holidays like for you and did you ever go on holiday on your own

[Speaker 1] (57:19 – 58:21)
um well but with friends if you know what I mean when I was older but I’m a creature of habit I like going back to the same places I like knowing that I’m staying in that same cottage on that same island and I don’t know where I am day to day because if I’m not I’m having to youtube video you know google map you know to know to know where I’m going and what I’m doing and if I’m going somewhere like I went to New York and when I went to the combined authority which is a fantastic experience but I just didn’t sleep seven days as a consequence because I was so wired from the journey the transport the interactions everything we were asked to do from in a work capacity there and the sensory overload so yeah I just I just have to take it easy if I’m going somewhere new but having said that Anna and I will send you a link our young people were funded through the Alan Turing project to go to Chicago to Apple headquarters and lots of them are near a divergent and they have the time of their lives so I’ll send you the link

[Speaker 2] (58:21 – 59:47)
oh yeah I’d love to see that yeah because um yeah Patrick’s talking about various it’s talking about Berlin he’s been talking about the Dominican Republic and I’m thinking oh and it’s also paleontology all of his interests and I thought oh I wonder if this might guide the tools where you could go so it’s a little bit you know such a dual set in the Jurassic coast I’ve been there loads of times you know absolutely there so um yeah we’re we’ve got a minute or so left so um just people to remind that you’re on LinkedIn so people can find you and is it just under Dr Shirley Woods hyphenated Gallagher correct yeah so it’s got G-A-L-L-A-G-H-E-R are you on any like Twitter or Instagram or anything like that um I couldn’t bear Twitter I think I lost his eyes all right okay all right well thank you for taking the time out talking to me it’s been really interesting and keep doing what you do and you’re amazing and um yeah so people can write um sorry read about your article that you’re going to share with the charity website just to remind you it’s www.anna Kennedy online.com there’ll be a bio there some of the links that um show’s been talking about so you can catch up so that’s difficult sometime I just want to say keep going everyone I know everything’s in turmoil at the moment but hopefully we’ll get there one day at a time so thank you everyone and thank you again show thank you take care bye bye