[Speaker 2] (0:02 – 6:56)
Hello, this is Anna Kennedy. We’re talking all things autism and Yes, busy busy busy as always so lots going on and obviously a lot of parents as well They’ve had half term and Angelo’s been off as well for the week So we’ve done quite a bit of walking and then I’ve been trying to work as well from home So I’ve actually been talking to quite a few families and parents That have their businesses and they’re running them from the home and they find it quite difficult sometimes To work from home when their children are off or their adults are off and trying to keep them occupied Trying to go for walks and trying to catch up. So burning their midnight oil at both ends so we are working at the moment on anti-bullying week and month and obviously a lot of the children are going back to school and I I Still get contacted by parents where children are fusing to go back to school I’ve spoke to a few actually this morning where they don’t want to go back to school because of bullying and obviously this is Really an early stage of some of them at their first academic year or their secondary school academic year so what I’m saying is that More training needs to be put in place in schools because training is key in my opinion And we’re not talking about a one-day training session.

It has to be ongoing and please Listen to parents as well because obviously they’re living at 24 7 with their children and with their adults and Autistic children are seen by their parents and carers as vulnerable to bullying So we have our campaign and it’s been going for quite some time now. I started it or something like 2012 I believe it was and I started with the NSPCC and I was working with the anti-bullying Alliance and it’s called give us a break And I have worked with schools. I’ve worked with colleges I’m trying to make them aware of bullying and also sharing autistic students experience and most of it seems to be happening at break time So what I’m saying is please provide and positive activities that keep them safe So whether it’s drawing whether it’s music Whatever it is that the child might like so you’ll give them a job to do not in the library or whatever it is that so it’s the lunchtime is a little bit more focused and It seems to be working well with some schools and because as we know our students best work with structured activities and There’s lots of information on the charity website So if you look at on the events and check out give us a break and all the information is on there So that just to remind you our charity website is www.anna Kennedy online.com if you want to follow us on social media find out what’s going on And I’m on there all the time sometimes from there I was on there half past four this morning because Angela was awake So it’s at Anna Kennedy one on Twitter Anna Kennedy online on Facebook and act Anna Kennedy OBE on Instagram so check out the charity website as well because we’re constantly doing various different workshops and one of our Autism consultants who’s autistic Paul Isaac. He’s amazing So he and every sort of other month does a workshop for us and then we invite guests to and we sadly have had to postpone the autism hero wards and that is because of Families worrying about traveling down to London in the next few weeks. So we postponed it until March and 19th, I believe it is Again, check out on the charity website and you’ll see all 36 finalists that would have been traveling from all over the country And I believe we have a couple from overseas as well that are coming along and that have been shortlisted So that is now going to be changed to March just to remind you as well about the autism passport I spoke about it a couple of weeks ago It’s very popular and the charity sponsored the passport and it’s been produced by autism anglia Of which I’m an ambassador So the passport helps you understand my autism and how to make adjustments for me And basically it’s for when you go to appointments, so you don’t have to keep repeating yourself Because obviously might meet various different professionals and it has all the information about yourself How can you help me things that can affect my ability to communicate? characteristics of my autism Stress-reducing methods that make and may help and support me So there’s like tick boxes and even a little bit about taking a deep breath and to end the exercise to help you relax So this is available on the autism anglia website It’s if you download it, it’s free But if you want to purchase the actual book so it can carry around with you it’s a little bit more robust made on card and it’s one pound fifty and Definitely, it’s been used quite a lot by a lot of families that I’ve recommended it to just want to remind you as well about one Of our charity champions has written a book from a tier to here It’s taken a quite a few years years to put this book together, but during lockdown, she had a little bit more time So she decided that she wanted to Finish the book. It’s about her son.

Aston who’s one of my charity ambassadors and all the funds go to the charity So the book was written originally as a form of therapy and she was struggling with Aston as she was growing and she found herself being lost in her poetry So again, this is on our autism charity website We have a little shop there But you can also see the give us a break t-shirts if you’d like to purchase a t-shirt or a cap That’s be kind and they’re all supported and I’m one of the ambassadors for born anxious, which is Organic cotton and label-free Clothing. So all of that is on the charity website lots of information Marla who’s one of my charity champions She’s amazing.

We constantly chat in and we constantly talking about articles that can be uploaded onto the website And that is happening every single week. We’ve just today uploaded an article about pets about dogs and about autism So yeah, lots of interesting stuff on there. So today My guest is in us is now I hope I pronounced that correctly and I She’s an engineer by background with a PhD in engineering from UC Berkeley, California In us has a colorful career that spans engineering Media and entrepreneurship and throughout her career.

She has always tried to make a positive impact in areas that she is passionate about women children education and Innovation so welcome in us and it’s lovely to hear your voice again because obviously we met over a couple years ago now I think yes.

[Speaker 1] (6:56 – 7:11)
Yes, indeed Thank you so much for having me on the show and it was it’s a really a pleasure to talk again You were so kind and to accept our invitation to visit us where we worked to yet pre kovat When life was totally different.

[Speaker 2] (7:11 – 7:38)
Yeah It was great to have your in to hear your insights about our products our plans what we our inspiration and our vision for what Sarah Thank you, so before talking about what Sarah before talking about awesome anything like that So let our listeners hear a little bit about you so they can get a little picture about who in us is and why did you? choose engineering

[Speaker 1] (7:39 – 10:06)
brilliant, well, I’m A wife and the mother of two lovely children a teenager and the preteen So not not that young anymore, but it’s lovely to have this family I’m an engineer by background just because I loved anything to do with stem really I loved science mathematics And that’s where I I saw myself Giving adding value to to the world to my community and the world around me But then after a successful engineering career I felt that they could add more value and make a bigger social impact if I work in broadcast So I my heart yeah and planned and worked hard to join the BBC and worked at BBC Arabic to report and present on social issues I Was there for seven years?

Okay, and how I Loved it. I I I loved it. I it was great to connect to people and to talk about issues that really really matter to them and especially I’m very passionate about As you said about women issues about children about education and how people can develop through education and empowerment so After that and due to some personal Personal A Personal situation actually challenging situation for me trying to find support for my son to help him with his social and communication skills It was it was a challenging journey, but luckily it was successful and it was very rewarding I decided to you know what to go back to somewhere in between engineering and and media and to set up a Sarah To produce games and other media to help children develop their social and communication skills And I co-founded it co-founded a Sarah with my husband to do that Okay, old Sarah is the the first three letters from autism and Sarah like in Latin Sarah S-e-double-r-a is incubator. So for us we thought that what Sarah could be an Incubator for children on the autism spectrum and to help them grow and strengthen the roots like like like Any incubator until they they are strong enough to function on their own.

[Speaker 2] (10:06 – 10:10)
Okay. Okay So how long did it take you to put out Sarah together?

[Speaker 1] (10:11 – 10:47)
We set it up in 2019. It was an idea for more than a year because I was also reporting and getting more and more interested in how technology and how the Digital world can be a supportive tool in all in everything in medicine in education and in everything and I I thought about it for more than a year me and my husband and then by towards the end of towards mid 2019 we decided to set up a company and to start working on it full-time both of us

[Speaker 2] (10:47 – 11:06)
So was it a bit scary thinking that because obviously you’re going to give up your job and then sort of Put all of your energy into this company because I know, you know, it’s exciting to say Hey, i’m going to start my own company But the reality of it is it can be quite stressful. So how how was it for you and your husband?

[Speaker 1] (11:06 – 12:03)
You are absolutely right. I mean Taking the decision was the easiest bit It’s It’s really thrilling it is um, I love it. I love the challenge I love I love taking the risk and it is a big risk, but I think that We we managed to be realistic in our expectations and despite Being realistic.

I think that our expectations were always on the optimistic side that whatever we thought we could do in Three months would take like nine months So yes, it is it is risky and I think we just the the best thing to do is to take it One day at a time and that’s what we really do focus on what we need to do today and to to get To make the the most out of it Um, but I really love it and I I think I thrive on taking this risk It because because of them because of what it is about Yes I think

[Speaker 2] (12:06 – 12:32)
Some people do thrive on stress. Yes, and probably probably, you know, that’s more than I do but So and how many are in your team So tell me a little bit about your company and also do you mind sharing about google startup and is that still going? And what’s involved just in case someone might be listening in and thinking oh, I want to start my own company Oh, is that something that I could get support from?

[Speaker 1] (12:33 – 14:32)
Oh brilliant. Yeah, I mean, I think we we wouldn’t have done We wouldn’t have come so far without the support we got from different incubators different Business support programs and also grants from the government. So The when we started we were supported by um a women in tech in women in social tech actually Support program which was basically for women startup led by women who are working in the social impacts field Okay, we do uh having After six months we applied to to join google for startups again in one of their very competitive women women Led startup incubators and we we luckily we got accepted We got excellent excellent kind of support for like six months intensive support for six months that was just pre corona pre-covid and that made a huge difference for us in terms of the Of the way to think about having a startup.

I mean, it’s great It’s lovely to have an idea of doing something useful and something with a great impact but to make it a reality it’s it’s a totally different story or like how to have to Formulate your goals how to have a plan to achieve them and and all that Afterward, we also got a couple of grants small grants from the government. One of them actually was To in response to covet and that was in 2020 In response to covet and our our application was to develop a game to help teachers support children who are at home during covet who are children with special educational needs who are Losing out on the training that they receive face to face at school on how to understand social situations and how to read facial expressions and social skills in general

[Speaker 2] (14:32 – 14:39)
So when you apply for a grant, is it a long process? And how long do you have to wait before you find out whether you’ve got the grant or not?

[Speaker 1] (14:41 – 16:16)
Well, it is a long process. It is very competitive and you need to really answer the questions that the In the grant in in that that you’re required to answer in the application. It takes around 10 weeks For it to be assessed and then you might get it or you might not So having having a grant is a very competitive process like you probably the chances of success are less than five percent If you have a good case and you really know what you’re doing and you have you’re backed by science And you’re backed by all the documents that you need.

Okay, your chances are much higher and and My my Co-founder and husband is much better. It’s much better than me doing this. So he knows how to form I’m the the maker.

I produce the Games and and he is has clearer idea of how to write this put this in writing And we were we were lucky to have gotten this grant which helped us develop our first product actually. Okay Um, so so we this kind of support is amazing in the uk and we are very grateful to have received it to be honest be the the money you get from a grant and the The other types of support that you get from incubators and accelerators, especially focused on products that that have social impact right, okay, so The grant well, how long did that last for for about six months? Uh, six months and then we it was extended for three more months.

So we applied to extended to have a bigger a richer game Right.

[Speaker 2] (16:16 – 16:29)
Okay. So what was the gate? Can you talk a little bit about the game?

So obviously we can’t see it and I I have seen it within the very early stages So for our listeners, can you describe what the game is and what it aims to achieve?

[Speaker 1] (16:29 – 18:43)
Okay, this very first game it is a game an educational game that helps children read facial expressions and we do this through More than more actually more than 800 puzzles about 18 emotions different levels of difficulty of the facial expression and we do it in on different characters with different facial Features so that you can see for example happy or angry or a surprise on people who have different shapes of mouth different shapes of eyes even the I mean the whole there’s a lot of variety in it and the children go through this It’s a game really but it’s also a structured program of helping reading facial expressions with That that’s moving up and more Becoming more and more difficult very gradually and there’s a lot of repetition in it So one for each for example emotion the child Goes through like five levels from just being introduced to the emotion to playing and to checking which The correct facial expression and choosing the right facial expression and so on it’s um, we also made sure that imogami that’s the name of the of the Of the game where which comes from emotion and you know origami or the japanese are so we thought it it’s The child is sort of building a face from their understanding and they’re detecting any emotion so This is imogami You also made sure that it is color blind friendly that it is that the colors are not too strong because this can Especially for children autistic children strong colors can can be too much for them we we’re giving the the children the chance to Design their own characters so that they can Based on their preferences. So the characters they can choose from different sets of skin colors hairstyles um everything like eye color so that they can Make it them theirs I remember that part of it actually.

[Speaker 2] (18:43 – 19:00)
So how did it feel? Did you put a pilot together and then how did you test it to make sure obviously I you asked me to come in to Have a look and obviously I gave some feedback But what other what other feedback did you get and what other? Um studies did you before you sort of progressed knowing that you were on the right track?

[Speaker 1] (19:01 – 20:15)
Yes, we we went through four four cycles of design tests design tests design tests and from day one we we collected We collected people’s opinion as as you said You also participated in that of course with covet it became very difficult because We used to test at schools. We would go into schools and and See how children interact with the game Right and because of covet that became impossible so what we did was um connected with parents and asked teachers to connect us with parents at their schools and through these parents are really The there were the conduits that connected us to their children. So we would send them three sets of um Of feedback forms and would ask them to kindly fill the forms once Upon the when the child sees the game for the first time and then They’re playing it and then finally after playing it for two weeks and how They and the children feel about the game and whether they were benefiting from it and we also invited them to send us Photos and videos if if they would let us do that, of course keeping everything private when we receive it

[Speaker 2] (20:15 – 20:22)
So what sort of age group were you looking at and what sort of cohort of children? Were you then speaking to our families of children?

[Speaker 1] (20:22 – 20:54)
Okay, we were looking for it has been designed for children in um in primary school So and and of course depending on the ability of the child and where where they are But it’s mainly for primary school children. And the most of the children that we tested with were seven eight years old Just because that was the the interest that we got from schools. So yeah, so year three and year four and also some some in year two And we had such an as as old as year six.

[Speaker 2] (20:54 – 21:04)
So that was yeah So what sort of feedback did you get from? Families, children’s Staffs, can you remember any of the feedback and some of the changes you had to make?

[Speaker 1] (21:04 – 23:12)
Yes. Yes I mean, of course one of the changes was to change the logo It’s funny, but the first logo had Two eyes and the mouth and for some children that was scary Right. So we took away the eyes and the mouth from the logo.

So and they found it they found it simpler also the The characters at first we we had them not just the character The way we set the game at first we had it in three levels Introducing emotions and then testing emotions in a simple test and then testing emotion in a more difficult test And the feedback we got is while children enjoyed playing every puzzle it became repetitive after a while And that because that we were just doing too much in one level and then too much in a second level That they sort of forgot Okay, what we did was Mixed and match for every level so that for every so they are practicing the same emotion over a much longer period of time This this is one thing another feedback we got was about the dashboard from teachers and and parents I forgot to mention the dashboard. So this is an educational game that is able to Give the teacher the teacher or the adult Feedback and progress report of how the child is performing. Okay The dashboard that the teacher can access anywhere really Would was a bit complicated So we try to put in everything like how on average how many times they are playing how long they’re playing every day and Comparing different emotions together and it was a bit too complicated.

I think we’re trying to overdo it So we simplified it after the getting feedback from teachers and parents and now it’s a lot more visual and Teachers can see the progress of the child on a bar chart So how many puzzles the child has mastered how many puzzles the child is still struggling with So it and and because because it has become more visual it’s much easier for them to understand to interpret

[Speaker 2] (23:13 – 23:24)
So was it harder for you because of covid and then not going into schools to try and Progress the idea did it slow it slow the process down a little or was it still on track?

[Speaker 1] (23:24 – 23:58)
Um, it it has it has slowed it down I mean to try to to reach parents and to to form a community it wasn’t as easy as like Arranging to go into a school that schools have already agreed with That’s what that’s what on one side on the other side. I think that the value of the game was appreciated more Okay, it was yeah, it was developed in response to covet right and it was it it is It allows teachers to connect with children So I think that that on the other side, I think that they saw more value in it and the need for it

[Speaker 2] (23:59 – 24:21)
So obviously this game is to try and develop social and communication skills So how can you do that using digital apps when children play alone because obviously they’re not mixing with other kids Um, obviously they are now but at the time Um during covet everyone was at home and it could have been mixed with their siblings, but it was very limited

[Speaker 1] (24:21 – 25:38)
Yes, yes, you are right and this has been a real challenge to be honest and we we thought about it a lot Should we go digital but we feel that digital is the future and children Like digital and they like it really engages them a lot.

It appeals to them a lot more than than the regular practice and We we found that games in particular will allow us to give them give them some useful information without feeling that they are going through a tedious lesson of Detecting emotions and and allowed us also to add mini games so that they feel rewarded So it it it wasn’t easy. It wasn’t it wasn’t easy, but we also decided to make it balanced by putting A limit or a lock on the game so that the child cannot overdo it Okay, he gets too indulged in it and Giving the parents or the adult the choice or them the They had this decision to either unlock it or increase the session time So the session or even reduce the session time the session time that by default is 30 minutes now and they can Either adjust it to what they think is suitable for the child.

[Speaker 2] (25:38 – 26:05)
Yeah Okay. Yeah, i’m gonna ask how how was it for you? Um working from home um And trying to progress the game, but then you’ve also got two teenagers at home that needed your support So how did you do everything?

Did you find it? Again stressful that was it affecting your well-being? What did you do to so that you didn’t burn out if you if you know What i’m trying to say?

Yes.

[Speaker 1] (26:05 – 27:44)
Yes. No, it it has been stressful. Covid has I think was stressful to everyone and I mean as a mother the I know that my my biggest responsibility is really taking care of my children and The what we tried to do both me and my husband and we I think it was a shared responsibility is to make They a lot more structured structured as we can to That was the biggest thing and we also shared the responsibility like Between me and him and we knew that for example if I need to be Doing a testing session with the product that he needs to be around it.

It was a lot two children luckily my older is Is older so some things we she would be in charge of but with with my son There was a lot of work to be done and I think the younger the child the more the more Impacted they have been by covid and they’re able to cope with the online learning out of interest Yeah, that’s that’s one thing and getting them to sit down and to I mean In class they will have to be there but online they don’t have to they don’t have to be on And with zoom session if they find that it’s really not that interesting So yes, we we try to complement with other activities things that That were more interesting to to my son the thing that he really really missed the most Most was he he’s a bit musical and he he did some Guitar lessons that he really missed out on

[Speaker 2] (27:45 – 29:00)
so Well, the thing is online learning is not for everybody, you know, um, it’s you know I I’ve spoken to so many families where the the children Are just like they just found it so difficult to learn online and to keep focused Um, so it’s just not for everyone. So it you know, it’s it’s for me.

It’s about Looking after their mental health and well-being why get them more stressed? When you just got to do what you got to do day to day and and um, yeah I I spoke to so many parents and I said in the end It just wasn’t worth all the aggravation and the stress and the tears and everything that came with it. So let’s talk about um Our children and autistic children a lot of them like my own sons have their own specific interests How can you have one game or an application?

that appeals to Autistic children and individuals. So say for example, my son is his paleontology Dinosaur or whatever it is. Um, and obviously I speak to lots of other families where you know that they’re very specific interests How how did you get over that hurdle of creating a game or an application that appeals to all of them?

[Speaker 1] (29:01 – 30:20)
Well, I would say that that’s another big big big challenge and that I I cannot say that we have 100 Overcome it to be honest. We are trying our best and the the thing that this Proved to us and and has made us very very aware Of co-designing and you being more as user-centered as we can and getting a lot of feedback and also Personalizing the game so for us adding the personalization of characters was a key thing Yeah For children so that they really really design their own the characters they they like to play with also adding some elements of allowing them to be creative and to to to choose the colors of certain of parts of the game like the design of the map of the game or the The level map so we have a level map and houses within the level map we we reward children after Finishing each level by designing it. So these are things that That choices and the more choice you give a player in general not just autistic children any Any person the more engaged they are with the game and also trying not to to to make it to vary it as much as we can Yeah for now talking about the game.

[Speaker 2] (30:20 – 30:42)
So what if you have to encapsulate the game in us in a in a snapshot What what is the game? What what are they what you’re trying to achieve? Obviously you’ve spoken about facial expressions, but is it that they can Create the game themselves.

So it goes the way that they want it to go or is it got a specific Can you sort of explain a little bit because it’s not clear to me. What is what is the object?

[Speaker 1] (30:43 – 31:18)
objective of the game Okay, so the game The game is designed to help children read facial expressions and be able to detect emotions on others Right and also to read social cues. That’s the in the advanced advanced levels. Okay, and Within the game the child for example can choose Where he wants to see the game played in a candy land or in a in a fun land Right.

So fun land like a with a theme park for example and or a candy land where there are lots of candy designs and Okay stuff like that.

[Speaker 2] (31:18 – 31:25)
And then So can I just say if i’m starting the game now, so say i’m a child and i’ve choose candy land. Can you talk me through?

[Speaker 1] (31:25 – 34:16)
What I need to do like just so just so a little bit so people can get a bit of a grasp on how to do it Okay, so The child will will be faced with imogami imogami logo Which is is inviting them to choose their land and once they choose their land actually they can change the land afterwards But for now you chose candy land And then you start a first level in the first level. There is a wheel where the child can choose to play the wheel okay, and then he A certain emotion pops up and then this emotion he sees the emotion on four characters, right? He doesn’t just see it He’s interactively removing facial facial feature to put on the face so that he can read this emotion Okay, he sees in four different characters Then he goes back to the wheel and then he plays the wheel again And the wheels then could come up with an emotion could come up with a magic wand where they can create their own characters Okay, or at starting level two could come up with a character on which he is being tested or like playing a puzzle of choosing the right facial expressions to Present a certain emotion, right? And we we get the the even the for example the smile At first would be very exaggerated so that the child is surely understands This is happiness and then at a more difficult level The smile would be a lot more subtle. Yeah, and we go on with each emotion from introducing it to Testing it to afterwards and the higher levels seeing it in a situation For example seeing the family’s dog sick And then what emotion would that trigger in the family or one of the characters make more sense now for people?

Yes thank you, so But that’s I mean, this is one One social skill that we are we have focused on emu gami on but what for us is this is just one skill we are working more towards more interactive games like using speech recognition and we have actually just start today is that we are kicking off a Six months project in order to develop a speech Speech module within emu gami so that the children are not only detecting the facial expressions or reading social cues They are also saying and we talking to the game about these Situations. Okay, so if the child is a little bit more profoundly affected and doesn’t have good verbal skills would be suitable Yes, I mean there it is As long as they can understand The the emotion.

Yes, it will be because they don’t have to speak.

[Speaker 2] (34:16 – 34:20)
It’s a choice So if people want to check it out, where can they find you?

[Speaker 1] (34:21 – 34:54)
We are Www.emu gami.com. Did you spell that just Yes emu gami emo gami gami Www.emu gami.com or they can go to otsera and check our our games page Www.otsera a ut f e r a.com and check out games Yeah, I want social media as well We are on social media. There is emu gami game one word emu gami game It’s on social media and and otsera.

[Speaker 2] (34:54 – 35:10)
Otsera same name of the of the company already also social media Okay, so um, so the products so Can you is there any specific products? Um, so you’re talking about facial expression. Is there anything else?

I think the products yes

[Speaker 1] (35:10 – 36:25)
Will we are now as I told you we’re kicking off today a product to add speech speech recognition module to the game And using this module we will be we are planning another game that is um another game that is Full interaction like where the children are practice having conversations from the simple hello to asking about their About what they need really and that’s another that’s one for um That that involves speech, but we’re also starting another game.

That is That is um for children to practice Just and to try to recognize certain things like like I don’t say like visual You for example seeing an apple or an orange and trying to say apple orange to help them. Just Practice saying different things around them. Okay.

Okay. All right Yeah, so this is the this is also so these are the two products that are in the pipeline for 2020 2022 sorry 2020 So we spoke very briefly about the team So these if there’s a husband and wife there’s yourself and your husband.

[Speaker 2] (36:25 – 36:27)
Is there anybody else involved in the team?

[Speaker 1] (36:27 – 37:19)
Yes Yes, we have our lovely jane who is our subject Subject consultant. She has been teaching children on the autism spectrum for 20 years teaching them social skills She diagnoses for autism and she’s a core member of the team really and she has Put a lot into designing this the content of the game, okay and so besides jane we have two developers to We are developing on something called unity, which is very a game platform game development platform. So we have two developers we have three artists Okay.

Yeah, three artists. One of them is an artist slash a game designer and This is the this is really the team and we are we are a small team, but everybody is Believes in what I think believes in what we’re doing.

[Speaker 2] (37:19 – 37:55)
And that’s a very an important thing before anyone anyone joins us is that If you were able to see in the office and now So obviously you were when you were working together in the office before covid you were all working together Chatting to each other. What sort of difficulties have you found by working remotely? Because as i’ve said i’ve spoken to people where they find it difficult to work remotely working on their own in the home Some people like they bounce off each other when they meet So what sort of what’s worked for you and what hasn’t worked for you?

[Speaker 1] (37:55 – 39:16)
Well, I mean I totally resonate with that for me I really get energy from working around people and I think collaborative work suits me a lot and unfortunately I don’t have this now, but I we’re trying to we use We are almost together but online digitally. So we’re all on zoom or google meet or whatever And we’re we have the camera on as much as we can So we feel we’re together in the same in the same room And in fact, we have like we designed rooms so we would tell each other let’s meet in the main room So I we’re trying to make it feel like An office, of course, it isn’t it doesn’t and we we all know that and some of us really like it I think developers like it. They like that they can focus that’s quiet where they are when they want to be and I think the art team is is more of the let’s get together kind of people and for for me and the other struggle I think from about working from home is that things get Mixed up you you don’t know when to stop working and when when it’s family time This is for me the biggest challenge to be honest, and I don’t know how I cannot say that I sorted it out that

[Speaker 2] (39:18 – 39:40)
You find it because you work with your husband all the time and then you’re at home and you know There’s no there’s no space that you know There’s no you time because i’ll talk to you a little bit more about what you do for your own mental health and well-being But do you find that working and living you know Under the lines are emerging. Do you find it?

Do you find that sort of sort of side a bit difficult?

[Speaker 1] (39:41 – 39:58)
Yes, I I in brief. Yes, it is difficult. And I think that Our children keep telling us you’re always talking about Sarah.

You’re always talking about Sarah and it just happens and you I keep Promising myself, you know what this week that would be it on 5 p.m. That’s it.

[Speaker 2] (39:58 – 40:30)
It is not easy I must say yeah, I think when you’re passionate about something, it just takes over your life sometimes as well. So Can you recall? Um, this is what I was going to ask you about children.

So when the children are using your Is there any specific case that you remember that you’ve just thought oh they’ve really got it Without giving that out any any any child’s names Yes, actually a child brings to you that just think oh i’m doing the right thing i’m on the right track Yes

[Speaker 1] (40:31 – 41:24)
Actually a child was playing it with his grandmother and he In the evening and the next day in the morning So he was looking at different emotions and he he’s just five not even five almost five and The next day he he told his mom I don’t say his name. But anyway, let’s say it was john.

It’s not John is angry today and She was above She was really over the moon that he he managed to detect the emotion just by By relearning it learning it learning it that he managed to express his his emotion and he he never used to do that Oh, he’s angry or of his Excite he wouldn’t say it. He would be more physical but For him to express his emotion just verbally that was for me. That was lovely

[Speaker 2] (41:24 – 43:02)
It is amazing because obviously with our children because I remember when my boys were young obviously they’re adults now, but my Elders and patrick even though he’s very articulate he used to find reading emotions quite stressful And he likes at that time When he was like five six seven years old he was really into thomas the tank engine, which is obviously A big used to be a big thing for children on the spectrum A long time ago and some children still like it, but he used to say to me Um gordon’s got angry wheels and I used to think why is he saying why would he say that? And the reason he said gordon had angry wheels was because the steam was coming from the wheels So his interpretation was that gordon was angry because steam was coming from the wheels of the trail So and that and that’s the way and sometimes he used to say to me he wasn’t quite sure whether I was happy Or whether I was sad, but obviously now he gets it because obviously with Setting up the school that I did hilling demand they used to work on Constantly on emotions on social interaction role play all those sort of things which really can help But uh, he just when he was a lot younger I hope that was something that really sticks out for me that he never Knew sometimes whether I was happy whether I was sad So um, and that can be quite stressful as well for the individual and also, you know for the family members so, um something like you’re creating sounds like You know, they can really help a family and help with emotions And I think the earlier that you work with children as we know early intervention is crucial I think it can really really help and i’ve seen that in in in lots of different schools.

Would you agree? Yes.

[Speaker 1] (43:03 – 43:55)
Yes Actually, thank you for raising this issue because for us we don’t see This game or other any other game we’re working on as um, a substitute for support We just see it as a way to provide support earlier and make it a lot more accessible Yes, this is this is it really and for us And this is one thing we were really lucky that we managed to get some support. But for many it’s it’s uh, It’s a postcode lottery really that you’re in the right place at the right time But not everyone has has this and it’s not always available And and this is How we see such games and we really believe in early intervention Not just not us because we believe it it’s not like it’s proven by research The the earlier the intervention the better and every day counts Yeah, that was definitely so if you

[Speaker 2] (43:55 – 44:01)
Could in hindsight and you would just start to do this project now What would you do differently?

[Speaker 1] (44:03 – 44:12)
Excellent question One thing is that we would we will Design and design and design and design before we start developing.

[Speaker 2] (44:12 – 44:12)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (44:13 – 44:46)
Yeah, because Like you know what we we design develop tested design develop tested There must be there are other ways to design and test before you develop and spend a lot of time developing and then going Just again and we we basically the first version we we scrapped and we started all over again That must be frustrated after all that work It was and you know What the thing is after a while you get we also get attached to the game or your product any product So like you find this torn. Oh, it is good.

It is good. No, it doesn’t know we got

[Speaker 2] (44:51 – 44:51)
So

[Speaker 1] (44:51 – 45:54)
So that’s what you would do differently yes, this is why that’s one thing we would do differently yes and um, I think we would have brought uh in-house team earlier so at first we tried more than once with different prototypes and we had We agencies work on it, which is good and good provided some good value as prototypes and by prototype, I mean like um A very very small product. That’s not really a product It’s just to test whether this will appeal to this what you’re providing will appeal and will be useful to to people and We would have this would took us some time at the beginning But you know what at first you feel oh my god investing in having people in-house.

That’s a lot Yeah And but then you realize you need that in order to build to build something that you can grow and you can build on Okay, so Yeah This is uh, I think these are lessons that we learned.

[Speaker 2] (45:54 – 46:01)
Yeah So we recommend um If someone was thinking of starting up a company, would you recommend that they do it?

[Speaker 1] (46:03 – 46:12)
If if they are not too afraid of failure and they can take risk, yes Okay. All right. Yeah, if they are if they don’t mind risk.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (46:12 – 46:18)
Yeah So where do you see this company? Developing in so say let’s say five years time.

[Speaker 1] (46:18 – 47:59)
Oh brilliant um, well I I hope that in five years time that we would be serving more than a hundred ten hundred One hundred one hundred thousand children Okay, and that about ninety percent of them are happy with the product at least ninety percent So this is like this is what we imagine every day to keep us going We will be serving a hundred thousand children in the uk alone. Yeah in in five years and hopefully What about hope? What about over?

Yep, and more multiples overseas, but we want to serve the uk first I mean just just we we want to make sure it works here we and it is It gives value to the to the children to their parents to schools and to the society in general. So we’re hoping that Those children will be happy will be will gain social communication skills will have more self-confidence and their parents will be less stressed about where the children are and their Their potential and whether they will be achieving their potential and that schools will be have will have less burden and be able to serve more children with the limited budget and All that will be reflected on the society. Of course, that’s the dream and hopefully you will be part of of Achieving that Not just by emu gami. I mean by a suite of Of games that help children from with various and different needs on the spectrum.

So from Games that help them with very basic skills to games that help help them with More advanced and more sophisticated interaction.

[Speaker 2] (47:59 – 48:10)
Well, I hope you achieve that goal Um, can I ask which parts of the country have been interested in emu gami? Have you found that it’s been certain parts of the country or has it been a bit sporadic around the country?

[Speaker 1] (48:12 – 48:43)
We have I mean we’re based in london and we have received the We have received some interest from london, but not just not just london really we have people who have been asking Asking to try it because now we have a launch Launch offer for schools to try it for 50% off and we received multiple interests from outside london from from cambridge from the north from near birmingham and We it’s not just it’s not local.

[Speaker 2] (48:43 – 49:26)
No, I think it’s everywhere Okay, so let’s talk about because this is a program about mental health and well-being So what did let’s talk about what did you do before covid? To help with your mental health and well-being because obviously during covid and during lockdown and all those horrendous times that we had people couldn’t do certain things that they would normally do And to help with their mental health or well-being So what did you do before and then what did you do during? Lockdown to help you to keep going and to help motivate yourself to help your well-being to help your family’s well-being There’s a lot of people always like to listen to that.

Oh, what did what did they do? How how did they do it? How do they motivate themselves?

How do they keep going?

[Speaker 1] (49:27 – 49:55)
Well, I before covid it was social events. I love to meet people socially like from From um, that’s that was for me the the highlight of my month or whatever whenever we we meet Socially. Yeah, and also I did some dancing not like you but you know A lot more basic.

I I did some rumba and some salsa classes I love that Dancing is the best medicine.

[Speaker 2] (49:55 – 49:58)
I just love dancing. Are you watching strictly?

[Speaker 1] (49:59 – 50:21)
I do and i’m I have I mean every day this is our family ritual That’s all it watch strictly on saturday and then on sunday and cheer and have different favorites So who’s your favorite at the minute? Oh rose. Oh She’s I reckon she’s gonna win you I I hope so.

I hope so. My son hopes so.

[Speaker 2] (50:21 – 50:39)
My daughter was so sad that the judy left yesterday Yeah, I think she was poorly wasn’t she so she wasn’t she didn’t have as much time to practice, but she yeah Character, but I like I like to watch how they progress I love the costumes as well And she said she lost like a stone and a half in the in five six weeks.

[Speaker 1] (50:39 – 50:43)
That was amazing She she was happy. I love that. She was happy even leaving.

[Speaker 2] (50:44 – 51:18)
So you see yes, she shares the experience Rose how amazing it is that she cannot hear the music. She’s following the body movement Yeah, and he’s obviously learned a lot working with them Rose and what they achieve together because you tend to forget that you know, she is deaf Yes, that she’s producing that Fantastic dancers and I just and obviously it helps that she’s an actress and the way she expresses herself It’s just and i’ve just seen on across social media as well where they’ve said oh just give her the glittable

[Speaker 1] (51:20 – 51:36)
She’s amazing she’s inspiring I really love her yeah, yeah, she’s she’s really an inspiration and I really hope she wins but but there are so many talents this this year.

There are there are and I love the um Oh, you’re you’re honest.

[Speaker 2] (51:37 – 51:48)
I love him I like his um Official expressions and the way he dances as well and obviously tom fletch is doing really well Um, uh, there’s there’s a lot there’s quite a few of them. I can’t think of you.

[Speaker 1] (51:48 – 51:59)
My son. My son is is a big fan of wreath Oh, yes. Yeah, so we’re we have a it’s a collection here Oh and um aj she’s amazing.

I love her.

[Speaker 2] (51:59 – 53:04)
Yes. Yes. Yes.

She is. She’s very talented. My god She is a very attractive lady.

She looks fantastic in the costumes as well And obviously i’ve been there and i’ve seen how they put the costumes together and vicki who’s the lady who creates them She’s such a lovely lady She’s so down to earth and I managed obviously to go into the where they make them all and watch them do it And obviously I you know, i’ve danced on theirself. So lucky that i’m the only person in the public that’s actually danced on Strictly, but um, I don’t know why they didn’t do it again But they seem to think it cost too much money to put on the show that we did Uh, yeah, I don’t know why but it was just and we’ve kept we’ve still all kept friends as well All six of us that did it. So that’s amazing and obviously phil Um my main compare at the charity, so we still work together and still talk to trishner and all the others and heather So yeah, we that was just a one Yeah, it was it was amazing So, um, obviously then, um During covid then so did you still dance at home?

[Speaker 1] (53:05 – 53:38)
Well, if I can I do sometimes well, I yeah, I like to dance at home here Like you always say they say dance like no one’s watching exactly exactly and i’m originally from egypt So I do belly dancing as well, which I love I love to learn how to do that It’s easy Well, if you if you’ve been watching people dance it for since you you were born it is easy But I think I don’t think it’s difficult. I think it just needs some practice If you if you know how to dance romance, I’ll say probably won’t be able to that’s

[Speaker 2] (53:39 – 54:01)
The ladies they’re just so I love I love their costumes as well i’ve got a thing about costumes I don’t drink I don’t smoke so I have one bison it’s clothes So So now so so after you know, obviously hopefully we’re coming out of Covid but it just seems to be dragging on

[Speaker 1] (54:01 – 54:24)
It is my daughter had it like a month ago And at school, it’s it’s not easy at school. There are many many other girls having it But yeah, but it’s it is getting better and i’m happy that more people are Having hello Yeah, I can hear that.

They have vaccinations yet having vaccinations.

[Speaker 2] (54:24 – 54:39)
Yes, so Okay, so back to um otsera. So let’s just to remind people if they want to Um look look you up and and find out where you are and what you’re doing and how can they contact you? So, um, what’s the website again?

[Speaker 1] (54:40 – 55:21)
It’s otsera is Www.otthera.com a-u-t-s-e-r-a.com and on social media We’re also otsera And actually if the the contact us by email or on social media mentioned the show mentioned just say We heard you speaking to anna. We we’re happy to give them a 90 day free trial of the of the games for parents And and for schools, I told you that we already have um, we have a launch offer now 50 offer schools and special offers for special pricing for children who Are part of a school and yeah, and emu gami itself has a website Uh website www.emu gami.com.

[Speaker 2] (55:21 – 59:33)
Okay, so if you’ve missed that and you haven’t found a pen or whatever it is that you’re looking for Um, if you check out the charity website, um ina is going to write an article for us And she’s going to put all of those links In the article and then you can check it out and then hopefully, um get some of those discounts So that sounds exciting. So just to remind you about the charity again, it’s Www.anna kennedy online.com. I will be sharing it as well on social media So it’s at anna kennedy 1 on twitter Anna kennedy online on facebook and at anna kennedy ob e don’t forget to check out our events And remember the hero awards has been postponed now till march So if you wanted to come along to that we’re still selling tickets, but it won’t be happening until march and that will be at Um the chelsea harbor hotel.

It’s such a lovely event. You’ll need tissues because it can be quite emotional, uh, we still got one or two, um sponsorships, so if people would like to um be a sponsor for one of the categories because there’s 12 Categories plus two special categories. So there’s 14 in total.

Um, I think we’ve got two left Um, so if people would want to sponsor, um, and then you will be um, get a three course meal You’ll be able to present the um award To the winner and you have your photograph on the red carpet and then your logo will be in On the press board where the celebrities come along and then obviously your logo Will be on the charity website with a short by or about yourself and the link so if you’re interested in that There’s um check out um the contact form and just um Send it to uh, one of the girls and they will pick it up just to remind you everyone’s a volunteer at the charity as well So even myself everybody volunteers because we’re all very passionate.

We’re all very driven We’re either parents carers grandparents or autistic adults Um that are my ambassadors, uh charity champions Or patrons and I just wanted to quickly share about this book that was sent to me It’s called this is our lunar verse written by sarah casement And it’s violet introduces us to her big sister luna and the wonderful way that she views the world showing us different Doesn’t need to be scary. It’s such a lovely book and I love the colors Um, it’s got purple in it. So I love purple And um the was illustrated by far rushi.

I hope I pronounced that Correctly and it’s dedicated to her daughters luna and violet for showing us true friendship has no boundaries You make me smile every day I love you both more than words to my husband tom for always supporting you supporting me. Sorry. I love you A special thanks to everyone at rayburn that allows for their continued support and not forgetting my sisters or for coming up with the title Luna verse so i’ll just give you a first page It says this is my big sister luna and luna is so much fun Luna plays a certain way away.

She likes it done I love to play with luna and luna loves it too. Although she cannot say the words. I know it to be true And there’s lots of different Some really lovely illustrations in this book So it’s a really nice book to share either with siblings Or even in a school primary school definitely a suitable book So if you’re interested, just check it out on amazon and you can purchase it from amazon.

So I just wanted to say In us it’s been lovely talking to you again because obviously it was a couple of years ago since I First met you and it’s lovely to hear how everything is progressing how the team is building and how you manage to navigate Working from home. So thank you for sharing it with me And again to to remind everyone if you want to read a little bit more, um, check out, um the website Which is www.orsera A-u-t-s-e-r-a Dot com So thanks so much Oh, thank you and best wishes to everyone because obviously I met some of the team when I was there and um, yeah Keep going keep me posted on how everything’s going Thank you.

[Speaker 1] (59:34 – 59:36)
Anna. Thank you. We will do Thank you.

[Speaker 2] (59:36 – 59:49)
Thank you everybody. Um, and thank you for listening in keep going one day at a time will soon be christmas And uh, yeah best best wishes and lots of love. All right, then.

Thank you very much everyone. Bye. Bye now.

Bye