Hello and welcome to this week's edition of Free Your Mind. Let's talk about it. From Lady Kendall-Jagger, LKJ. In our lives, we love the sound of music, we listen to music, and we have different eras of music that we enjoy. Or there's certain artists that touch our hearts and our minds and we're always left with questions. For me, Motown was a very, very important era to me, and I resonate with many songs going on. And after the death of Michael Jackson, you know, his life has become— how do we say— we're always looking for an answer, always looking to see what's going on. So for myself, when I'm interviewing people and looking at stuff to do, I'm bringing to the show different qualities. We all suffer with mental health, you know, it's a big issue, anxiety, etc. But one thing, as most of my listeners know, I'm half America and half here, and I do like to bring the pond across to the UK so that you can understand You know, life in a different country in music, where music is built from the studios to passion. And today I am absolutely honored to bring a wonderful gentleman on this show. His name is Kenneth Joseph. Kenneth Joseph is an independent filmmaker. He shot the Gordon Keith Untold Stories of the Jackson 5. Gordon Keith was the first executive producer of Steeltown Records that actually signed the Jackson 5 to his Gary, Indiana label before Motown in November 1967. After Gordon Keith's recent death, surpassing a year ago, Kenneth Joseph, our guest on our show this week, inherited Steel Town Records, in which the Johnny Jackson story was originated from. Now, when I introduce Joseph in a minute, as you know, the viewers, we love this general chat, open, relaxed form. So I'm going to bring Kenneth Joseph in, and first of all, he's gonna, you know, come across, and we're gonna know about him first, and let's find out a little about him and then let's hear this magnificent, um, the Johnny Jackson story. Kenneth, are you there? Yeah, can you hear me? We can hear you. It's a pleasure to have you on the show and welcome to all the listeners in the UK and around the globe that listen to this radio station and where it's live streamed and all the different platforms then it goes on. Please remember to go on to www.womensradiostation.com, and this will be heard at 8 AM and 8 PM Monday through to Sunday from the 25th of April. So we have a whole week, so if you miss it, don't worry, you can get it. And, um, you know, we're gonna go. So, Kenneth, Tell us a little bit about you. Obviously we've heard, you know, and as I've expressed to the audience, that you inherited Steel Town Records. So what was your connection with this to inherit that? Are you a family member of Johnny's, or can you express where you came from, where you was born, etc., so the audience can know who you are and how you became to own um, the, uh, Steele Town records. Okay, yeah, no problem. Yeah, I'm from a Creole background of all different nationalities from Louisiana. That's originally my background. I'm Creole, and of course I moved to the Midwest, you know, like, like, uh, in 1998. So anyway, as far as that, that's what I am. But now, Gordon Keith, uh, I was always fascinated by the Jacksons, and I always wanted to know, uh, of their history. And, uh, you know, I met Mr. Gordon Keith a couple years ago, and, uh, someone was mentioning about an article about a man that had signed the Jacksons. And to make a long story short, we connected, we talked, and things of that nature. So from that point on, uh, Mr. Gordon Keith wanted me to do a biopic of his life that involved the Jacksons, what happened, uh, in Gary, Indiana, uh, during that time of 1967 to '68. So from that, we shot all these episodes, and we had it at the time on YouTube and things of that nature. He had took me inside of a vault in Gary, Indiana. Yes, a physical vault. That had all of Michael's recordings during the time when the Jacksons were signed to Steeltown in 1967. So I was in there filming all of that and things of that nature. So in between that, Mr. Gordon had fell ill with dementia. And when he fell ill with dementia— now we're getting to the part on how I was able to orchestrate or inherit Steeltown. When Mr. Keith fell ill, his— one of his sons had took over all of the properties of the physical, uh, actual Steel Town, Michael's music. So when I noticed that, I found out that he had sold some of the songs to somebody in Asia or something for like, for $5,000 estimated, and the guy made about $1 million off of it. So when doing a biography of someone's story, you know, you have like the power, you have the rights and the contractual agreements to tell the stories based upon the what the parties have described to you of what occurred. So by that action of one of his sons, that caused me to go and do the search in Gary, Indiana, or the state of Indiana, to see if Mr. Gordon Keith had ever registered the name Steel Town, uh, uh, in Gary, Indiana, and for the state of Indiana during the time Michael and his brothers were signed to Steel Town. And, uh, it got back to me, found out that no, it was never registered, never ever in the state of Indiana or at all. So to protect Mr. Keith's story, right, I registered under my name and my production company, Pretty Boy Films Incorporated, Kenneth Joseph Pretty Boy Films Incorporated. Then from that, I created an actual logo because he never really had a logo for Steel Town. And I created that and registered that with the Trademarks Office. And then from that, we started making like promotional products and things of that nature. And from that, you know, Mr. Keith had shared with me all of these fascinating stories about what took place and who was involved. And one of them was about Johnny Jackson, the drummer. And from that point on, you know, I began to film the story. And, uh, for like years I just didn't— I didn't— I couldn't do anything with it because, you know, when you film a movie or a product, it has to go through a process, a process as far as being edited, and that costs. So at the time I didn't have any monetary gain for that until it took me like 3 years. So it just kept bothering me, um, for me to put this story out, and, um, I did. So we started on it. I found a couple of editors like last August. And then from that point on, it was like everything was talking to me in the spiritual, just putting it out there. And before I knew it, one of the members had died on the— as far as the Gordon Keith Hunt Soul Stories of Johnny Jackson story. So that's how I wind up inheriting Steel Town. So now I own Steel Town for the sake of Gordon Heath. So in a couple years, I plan to have a historical museum where we're going to tell the story of the Jacksons for their little short period of time being signed under the Steel Town roster and what happened and how they evolved wrongfully from— how they were wrongfully piloted, shall I say, from Stilltown to Motown. Yes, lovely, and that's really interesting, you know, because people don't realize, and when you're in this situation, when you are actually creating a label, doing a record, what you're doing is about the registration, your trademarks, your copyrights. It's so important that that is done, and I think, you know, for Gary, he would be very impressed with you that, you know, like you were saying, doing the museum and your honor, your, your thankfulness to this guy that basically, as I, I'm getting the feeling, took you under his wing. Yeah, yeah, Mr. Keefe was definitely like a father. He had, but he had, he had that power with everybody he met. It's just the problem is the wrong people that he met. He would always let the wrong people in his circle. Do you think he was— because he sounds obviously very much a humanitarian gentleman, and that, as you were saying, that he was taken advantage of through his acts of kindness. Yeah, I can say that to a certain degree. Uh, this again, this, these stories go back to like even Joe Jackson, how Joe Jackson was a friend of his and how they promised Mr. Gordon Keith's mom that, well, first of all, they acknowledged that for what Mr. Keith has done for the Jacksons, you know, they would never forget Mr. Keith for that. And whenever they return, they would make it and do big things for Gary. But, you know, that never occurred. And see, these stories are very powerful because for these stories, when you look at the history and the nature of the Jacksons, first off, when you go back to the history of the Jacksons, I'm talking about where it all began in Gary, Indiana. You have to go back there. Then you will see Steel Town Records. There's no way around it. When you start to legally dig and indulge, there is no way around it. But for the history of Motown, right, and how Motown wrongfully took the Jacksons away from Steel Town, right, they have never— Barry has always schooled those young boys back then what to say, when to say it, and what not to say. And so this whole thing is very powerful. Can I just cut in, if you don't mind, on that? When we're going back, so we're going— for the listeners here, you know, that we're talking about the Jackson 5, uh, and going back to where it all started, you know, with the Rolling Stones or the Beatles, you know, where they start. We're going right back to the very root where it's going. And Steeltown were the ones that believed in the Jackson 5 first before Motown. And basically, because they hadn't registered Steeltown Records and the stuff, they, they stole the Jackson 5. Is that what you're saying? Yes. And here's another thing. I spoke to a record producer of mine, or executive friend of mine, that he was asking me, he said, Ken, Did you know, did Mr. Keith ever release the Jacksons? And at that time, that was all new to me, and I was like, what do you mean release? What are you talking about? So when he described it, you know, it made sense. You know, anybody who has artists assigned to a label, it is that executive producer's knowledge and right to release them to go and sign or do or collaborate with any other executives. So when he asked that question, it just opened up doors. When you think about it, back then Mr. Gordon Keith never knew those things. He never knew that he, that he had the power to release them. He didn't know any of that. So that's, that explains how and why he was taken advantage of. But Barry Gordy knew, but why would he tell him? Why would you, why would you tell anybody, you know? So he didn't know. And so there's some investigation into that to see, uh, how long is the statutory, uh, of, uh rights last. We talk about 50 years ago, but never the fact of the matter though, again, when you think about the whole concept legally and the rightfully way, no matter how famous they were, right, they still have to pay dues to still turn records. Yes, because we're going back to the old things of the rights, aren't we? You know, I haven't cut a record, Jagger's have, Um, for people that know that. But for me, is if you've written it and I said, you know, can you help me? You know, how can you help me get this? You know, he helped the Jackson 5 in the very beginning, and they were poached, taken away. All his work has basically left him with nothing other than the memories and the joy and the love that he had for them. Because we're always searching to get that release. And I suppose now when you see artists in this day and age of R&B, you know, for instance, that desperately want to sign, you get your management company that put their 20% against it. Then they want to go on and, you know, to get the record and they're taken by this, you know, record company. And then this is where we get all these battles with songs. That was my song, you've done this. And a lot of mental stress. And anxiety. Because at the end of the day, when we look at the Jackson 5 and we go back and we go back to that place in Indiana, this was about creating the beautiful sound of music, of the music that they could produce. But in the end became puppets. You were told what to wear, where to go, what to eat. The mental exhaustion, anxiety on there to gain because you want to feed your family, you know, you want to be this thing, you want to be a bit more, you want to be famous. Every musician, you know, his joy is to be recognized and shown, but the mental health, the anxieties, you know, it leads to so many different issues and traumas, you know, from acute trauma to chronic to complex trauma which comes in. So when people are doing these transitions is why there should be these companies that allow people to first of all make sure your contract is signed, see what you're entering into, the people that are protecting yourself, because if you don't, someone's going to come and take all that away. And you may think, oh, this is a wonderful, um, deal, or what people are doing, but don't forget the person that let your hand out, that recognized you, they saw the beauty in you and encapsulated you and perhaps moved forward towards having this next step. But they also can get starstruck and become monsters, can't they? You know, and controlling. It's a massive thing mentally to go on when you just start with a passion of music. And like yourself, it's wonderful to hear the tone in your own voice. You are so passionate and resonated We're telling this story about Johnny Jackson and where it comes and where we're going to come on to, from yourself and your love for Gary King and who he was and to protect him because you were sharp. You come from a different era where we have to be sharper now. We have to be on the ball. We have to protect ourselves because we are in a world where people will harm and take that away. We have to protect ourselves. With an armor around us as much as we like it, because we have to look after our inside to make our mind well. And as you were saying, he, he was very much like a father figure to you. Yes, he was. And that's what opened doors. But before, you know, at first he would play riddles and rattles, and I would never understand why was he playing these head games. But as the more I got to know him, I understood why, because he'd been through a lot of stuff, met a lot of people, and he was done that kind of way. So eventually, at some point, he learned. And so he learned, and he began to be able to, you know, give you little bits of stuff to see what you do, like give you crumbs and play dumb and go watch in the corner and watch your actions. And like, the more he would see that your intentions were sincere, then the more he would give you more to see what you would do with more of it. And then the more you would do more the right way, then that's when bam, he would just open up. And then bam. And it was crazy. It was like God told him that one day he needed to share. And I was looking at Mr. Keith like, is this man losing his mind? What did he talk about sharing? But then as I got to know him more, I knew exactly what he meant. He started giving me documentation. And so those are the things that started to make me be very confident, you know, versus people, the Jackson lovers. Oh, you're going to get sued. They're going to come after you. Joe's going to come after you. Then common sense started to kick in and said, you know what? No one's going to come after me because defamation of character— you have to know what that means first of all. Look up that meaning, defamation of character. That is defaming someone. And what you're defaming is no evidence that what you're saying coming out your mouth is solid. So if that other party can prove that what you're saying is not solid, yes, you have defamed someone, and yes, you're going to have some problems, some repercussions. But if you know— when you know that what was given to you, a physical documentation, a documentation, that's a solid answer. The whole world could say defamation of character and you know better. You have proof and confidence that the things you have is no such thing as defaming anyone. It is evidence. And so that's what Mr. Keefe was always giving me, more and more evidence. And the most fascinating part about that is this thing goes all the way from The story about Johnny Jackson and what happened to him, to even before that, to Michael pedophilia that occurred. You see, this whole thing all starts again. You have to look at it where it all began. And most people, you gotta look at how the world has viewed the Jacksons. The media, they followed and believed the media, what they hear in the media, and what the Jacksons have grown up to be. But not, not one time did anyone ever think about before all of that, what were they truly before all of that? What were they and where were they at with, with what they were? They were little boys in Gary, Indiana. And when you start to do research on that, then that's when you start seeing the true core of who they really are and what happened to them. So this thing goes— is so huge with Mr. Keith. If he really wanted to During the time when he was going to on the Geraldo Show, he could have brought the Jackson's career down just like that with this, uh, you know, with the pedophilia stuff. And he even gave me copies of videos that I've never released yet that I will release eventually through this whole Steel Town umbrella of stories. And it's going to be— it's very, very powerful and very convincing. And it's just amazing how People get loved or seduced by the media, including myself. Every day we're blind by that. The media is never always the truth. And once you know that, you know, that's when you begin to see a different perspective. But the Johnny Jackson story is going to last 3 hours long, 3 hours and 20 minutes long, and it's going to be very, very interesting. I'll give you a little sneak peek on it. There's a live audio recording that Mr. Keith gave me of Johnny Jackson, of the drummer, confessing some things in the audio, and of Mr. Keith and this lady named Sandra who was from Great Britain. Apparently she must have flew from Great Britain, uh, in the early '80s to Gary to interview those two people. Okay, and, uh, it's in the documentary, uh, the audio. And when you hear some of the things that Johnny was talking about And this is the man himself saying it. So are you gonna play some of that on the show, or— No, um, no, I was thinking about it, uh, uh, but no, I don't think that that would be a good idea. I have those two trailers on my website, prettyboyfilmsinc.com/tickets, you know. Can you repeat that again? So for Obviously, this is an unbiased, unjudgmental show, and obviously with Kenneth Joseph, very passionate, resonant about this. It's a powerful story. Anything to do with the Jacksons is powerful, and also his love for a guy who was subject to— we think that, you know, when we're in a recording studio, these artists, that things aren't being recorded.— but if you're saying something, you're bringing in defamation of character, pedophilia, you're talking about mental health, what went on, who these people were, and in the background where this is recording going on, people bought and sold to be quiet, passed on, they make it go away because you are a product of this label to go out. So if you want to see a small snippet, and I have had the pleasure of seeing this and look forward to when this film is released. I just need the audience, as we take a breath, it's quite a lot to take in, is why we're breaking it in. This film is 3, 3 and a half hours, Kenneth. Yeah. Long. And so when you do have that passion, or for music and, and for a story, and the truth. This film brings you the truth from the perspective of Kenneth Joseph, who has filmed this all the way along with thoughts that Gary Kenneth was perhaps suffering with dementia. And people on this show, you know, I covered a 6-week period on dementia with neuroscientists, with nurses, on the person that had it, that, you know, what looked like dementia wasn't. It was trust issues. Trust where somebody had believed in somebody in the very beginning and obviously now has been hurt. So learn your trust issues are going, your natural protectiveness of the brain to shut down, protect, to open up. But in the eyes of Kenneth Joseph, he saw a boy that became a man, that became almost, in words, in Kenneth's words, as he was his son, a father figure. And in the right, and the, uh, in the legacy of Gary, Keith is to keep this and his memory alive and what happened and the truth. Out there. And by producing this film, which is going to draw so much media attention because anything to do with the Jacksons and you're telling a story going back, and when there is audio present about things that have gone on too, the naiveties in those days where people didn't register and sign in their states because money was wasn't really there. They would use that money in going on tour, different clubs, working in the power and the belief of those people to go into a record company. That then we see so many bands and that breaking up because, you know, it's hard work. People think when you're going to buy these tickets to the audio stadiums, concerts, you know, all these people, there is so much mental health pressure put on an artist. And people think that they don't suffer this, that, you know, the pressure to get out there on the road all the time when we need to sleep. We've seen it with Elvis Presley, we've seen it, you know, with the wonderful Whitney Houston. You know, there's many more great legends that have gone. Michael Jackson himself, when we go back, and I'm sure Kenneth will be showing throughout this that where they started from, what happened, you know, what was it like. We're always in search of wanting more, to know what it was like. You know, when Michael had his, um, Neverland, this wonderful circus, and going in, but in his mind still being like a child. You know, this debate will go on regarding Michael Jackson for years and everything that's gone on with that, and I can either say yes or no because I just have to sit in the middle of the fence, and where I will sit. But this show is unbiased and unjudgmental, where you have the reason to voice an opinion. And like with Kenneth Joseph coming on here to allow the audience in the UK and anyone that's listening to this on any future podcast or going around, is these audios were actually taken at the time, back before 1967. Is that correct, Kenneth? Well, this audio, this audio part here is to like during like the, the mid-'80s, mid-'80s, like '85, '87, something like that, uh, when Johnny had finally returned back home. And you know, he's actually, you know, sharing, uh, with the public, um, exactly bits and pieces of what happened. I think I could probably play a little bit of it, maybe like a minute or two or something of it. I've got an iPad. Yeah, see if we can do it. Obviously for the listeners, you know, it'd be quite interesting to hear that because it's, you know, dangling the carrot as we would say here, you know, desperately wanting to hear a little bit of that. And we will say where to go and connect on this show, and there will be another recording after this show that will come out just to remind everybody, uh, when you're tuning in to not forget to tune in when this, um, is streamed on the 24th of July this year, right? We streamed in American time, not, uh, UK time, so we must remember that. Not see that's coming out. So, um, let's take us then from yourself. We've got the idea where you come, you know, just for the audience, I'm just gonna say you went to Jersey Village High School. Yeah, yeah, Houston Tech. Yeah, and obviously your interest in the Jackson Five. Did you have any brothers or sisters, Kenneth? Yes, I have, um, on my mom's side I have one brother, his name is Guy Joseph, and, uh, on my, um, I have a sister named Shaka Khan Joseph. I named my sister after Shah Rukh Khan. Yes, so you can see the influence in your family, even from your parents, the way you guys were born, the influence of music by being, you know, like in, in the name of Shah Rukh Khan, another famous girl yourself, you know, um, and obviously the religious aspect in, you know, like the Joseph, and you can, you know, resonate with people that you are, you know, believing in the power of, you know, our higher selves. And so whilst— I don't know if you're preparing to get that ready— I just thought I would say, in 1993 to 1996, film, cinema, video studies, you took that at Jersey High School. Yeah, yeah. Was that always— obviously we know that you love music, we know that by The communication and the bonding that you had with, um, uh, Gary, um, is, uh, and, and that love. Did he have any children? Mr. Gordon Keefe, he had some children, but it's kind of— I, I know he has one son. He's a detective in Maryville. He's a captain of the of the detective department in Maryville. And then he's got a son who was a DJ, his name, uh, it was Rondell. But we— I never— that's the kind of relationship that me and Mr. Keith had. It was just like, I can't describe it, like he told me more about his children than I ever knew about the names. But did you ever meet these children? Yes, I met one of them. His name was Rondell. He was a DJ. That's the one that went into the, uh, the vault and sold all of this Michael's, uh, music to some Asian guy for $5,000. So from that point on, I— him and I spread apart. I never wanted to have anything to do with him, you know, for him to do something like that, you know, he's dangerous. So, but yes, he did let me— I did meet Rondell and his other son who was the police, but I don't remember his name. Right, okay. And, and obviously because their father's passed over a year ago How's their feelings, do you think, towards you making this film? Which, for your, your voice is what you're trying to raise and get out there, is this love of this Gary and what actually happened. And, you know, the untold stories that Gary had on Johnny Jackson. You know, you could be many people wanting to silence you. Yeah, well, yeah, of course, you're absolutely right about that. And I love the questions you're asking. How did the family feel now? It's like some of them— I've gotten a call from his grand— one of his grandsons that came out of nowhere who was in prison, and I know, you know, and all of a sudden he wants to try to like come over and take over and bully, you know, and that was not going to happen. So, you know, it's just a lot of them didn't have anything to say about it, but whenever Mr. Keith was alive, they allowed someone— they allowed apparently Katherine Jackson to tear down 1025 Taney Street. That was That was the actual house. That was the actual steel town. They allowed Catherine to come in there and tear it down, and they allowed other people who was in neighborhoods and outside neighborhoods to come and take all of this history, debris of history that was still in the house, okay? They never did anything to stop that. But then yet, once it's all done and then they hear about me inheriting it and doing something positive for Mr. Keith, now they want to have something to say. So, you know, with that, you just leave that alone. I think about Mr. Keith. I'm doing it for him. It has nothing to do with the family because the family was never introduced to me like that. It was always a business between Gordon Keith and I that led into a relationship, uh, like father and son. But for the honors of Mr. Keith and the love for him, to the family, sit back, wait, let me do what I'm supposed to do for your forefather. Yes, and I think that's coming across quite clear because Obviously there are a couple of issues here that, you know, in my world of psychology, which I have, is looking at this, you know, for the children brought up by their father would have a different relationship than yourself. That for him, he was out working, doing strong, you know, building this career for himself with a, you know, a band like the Jax. 2005 that, you know, was having a lot of attention and stuff on there, that the children be at home. And, you know, sometimes we see that relationships break down. I'm not saying that their relationship has broken down. What I'm saying is that when we are there, we feel as children, as we're growing up, that the other parent wasn't there enough due to issues. And sometimes, you know, part of it is when you're saying they tore down that house and let it go is that it wasn't about the cost of stuff in it. It feels like a sense of anger, or there's some issues, serious issues, why it just had to go. When their father passed, it had to go. They didn't want to see sight of it anymore. And hence any— I mean, that material was, um, Michael Jackson's music. All of it belonged in the early days to their father, which actually should have been kept and sold on in the correct manner and got the right money and paid back for what he had nurtured and produced to even get to a record label. Because, you know, you have to work hard even for a record label to take serious notice of you, you know. Constantly going to different radio stations to play this song over and over again, remembering to copyright it, or somebody come along and take your material. Yeah, and obviously he trusted many people and got bitten so many times that affected him mentally to play these tricks with your mind. Perhaps when he came home, he stressed— it's just, there's an issue on there. And obviously I don't want to go too deep, I don't know them, don't have permission to speak or go on it, but I'm just saying on an overall person and not going into that, is that when he came to his workplace, he see you as this guy, you know, coming in, kind of trust them, kind of not, but was opening up. So he was— because with that, you know, sometimes when people try to silence our voice that, you know, um, if you throw enough mud, it might stick. Yeah, yeah. For him, I hope you, uh, understand that, um, that expression, you know, if you're throwing enough of this rubbish, some of it's going to stick to you, you know, because people will— as you were saying, you don't have the right to the left or right of your brain and what your brain thinks, but some people blinded and may think, well, everybody can't be saying this. So I wonder, did he keep these when he went in with, um, the Jackson 5 and Johnny and everything? And then with these recordings and what actually went on in there, he kept that because if he was to go without that, by his word only, nobody would believe him. Oh my God, did he keep it in that vault? He had what they called back then, they had reel-to-reel, big old, big old tapes going in a circle. And that's where the audio was, you know, was recorded, but it was never a record yet. So he had all of that, the reel-to-reels, that the songs were pressed into a record. And, you know, when you listen at the— anything with the Steeltown story, it's so vast. It's a whole nother ballpark, you know, going into details of Michael's first recording, Big Boy. Uh, people don't know the real, you know, difference about that. It's just so— stilltown is so huge that this thing, this Johnny Jackson story is only an introduction to the world because from that, that's going to get people familiar about it and then comes the actual movie, you know, and it, you know, the actual physical movie about Johnny Jackson and Gordon Keaton and stuff like that. So yeah, it's a very, very, very— yeah, he did have, uh, he had proof. Yeah, and he has— he's got proof of the evidence, and that's, uh, and obviously it's going to be very upsetting for a lot of people to know, A, that, um, you did register Steel Town Radio, and it's yours. Yeah, you're not doing defamation of character. You're saying, um, that you're speaking the truth, you've got the evidence and you haven't stolen this either because it was given to you by Gary Keith, and you're doing this in the legacy and name of a man who treated you like a son, and through being hurt together, you helped each other through that. And, and that's why even for his family that's on there, you're trying to say, stay back behind the fence and watch the job as it unfolds. And then give me your opinion after that. Don't come at me before. Wait and see what I've done. Is that what you're saying with this? Exactly. 100%. 100%. You know what I mean? And I honor him. And he was a Black icon that was blackballed by Barry Gordy, by the entertainment industry, by Joe Jackson. And he never got the recognition that was rightfully his. Joe never even apologized, even before him dying. He could have made things, uh, minute. That just shows you the evil, uh, the true unforgiving evil of some people. You know, sometimes people reach their points of leaving this world, common sense and God spiritually makes them prepared to want to do right, to want to everything that they did wrong, clean it up because they're about to leave and make it right. It's called at peace. And he never did that. So that lets you know the the core and evilness of someone all the way to death, they're going to hold in to leaving this world with that. Yeah. And that's heartbreaking. When we look at that, what you're saying is quite, uh, quite a big, uh, question, um, for me to answer. Because when we are at death's door, many of us— is why we ask for the priest or anything, our last rites. And is there anything— once it— for people on death row, wherever We have that human right to ask, is there anything you'd like to do? Or to say, you know, you're sorry for any stuff you've done. So before you go, do you believe into the hands of God to be forgiven and to go forward with that, to leave those people in peace that they did? When people don't say they're sorry, they're still torturing the mind. When they've passed on because they haven't got peace. They haven't had that explanation. Exactly, exactly. And so, yeah, so that's what I think about Gordon Keith. That's all I want to do. And I only protected it, his name, not for selfishness. To this day, even though I did it that way, I still feel in my heart that this is not me because it's not my story. But thing is, I protected it, protected it, and I'm still protecting his story against his own family from, from, from trying to ruin it or sabotaging it. And at the ending of the day, yes, I, I want to be able to say, hey, it's done, mission accomplished. And I could look into this, you know, into the clouds with tears in my eyes and say, Mr. Keith, I made this happen for you. Yes. And you can feel that power. You can actually— when you were saying that, well, I'm sure the listeners, um, that I listen to, anybody listens to. When people speak in their tone and we have this expression, and when we're trying to bring our inner self out and, you know, when telling the truth, if your hand's on the Bible or what you're saying to go up is, I believed in you, you believed in me, you had a legacy, you had your story, and your story was being quashed. As you say, Joe Jackson himself in your words, are he tried everything to prevent, um, Gary Keith from releasing anything. And had he known, do you think, had he had known he had all this evidence, he would have done something about it and about them songs? Yeah, but when you look at the nature of it all, when something is built on lies, uh, you don't go back because then the world won't view you the way that you presented them to view you. So I put myself in their own shoes as being a teenager in high school, growing up, mama was on welfare. I remember the greatest fads and styles out, Jabo, Guess jeans, mama couldn't always afford it. I would borrow it with some of my classmates, trade what I had, or sometimes even go steal it. And knowing the thing is, if you steal things, you don't go into the area where you stole it from. You go outside of the perimeter so that, so that you can brag and boast about it. Because if you stay in the perimeter where you stole it from, somebody's gonna prove you wrong and make you take it off and say, look at— but open up the tongue of the shoe, you'll see my name on the back of it. That's how I know it's my shoe. So you would never want to go there. You would want to go to a whole new school, a whole new town, showing off what you stole and brag about it, and the world would have the slightest idea that you stole it. So that's the same concept when you look at Berry Gordy and the nature of Berry Gordy, of how he wrongfully took the Jacksons from Gordon Keith. That's the same concept. And so with that, from all those years, he knew that if the world would have known how he got these boys from Stiltown, then the world would have wanted to say, hey, give me back how I look at you now, because you're all built on lies. They're tarnished. It's tarnished. Exactly. You'll never get a mirror to shine as bright or a flower to grow so strong unless it's been nurtured, treated correctly, and, you know, built on there. That will always be a smear. There'll always be something. When you build— somebody builds a house very quickly and the blocks have not been done by strong foundations, you know, it's gonna fall. You have to, you know, look at how you treat people. So for Gary Keith, in the beginning, he believed in them. He believed that they could be somebody, and he believed, and he invested his time, his money, and his mind into bringing them there. But when he brought them to this other group, this other group abused were nasty, inflicted stuff as in to make him look and belittle him constantly and in front of the artist as if he didn't know what he was doing, as if he wasn't there, and the artist forgets the hand that puts you out there to say, "This is me." So for him, he thought, "Do you know what? Go, go and do what you want to do. I'm going to go back and get on there." because for him, his own mental health at that time was more important because he knew there would be trouble ahead. This would not going to be a smooth ride. It's a hard enough ride as it is, but you reap what you sow. If you've reaped something or stolen something, as you've said quite rightly, without it being nurtured and being kept unprotected, it will go bad. That flower will die. Yes, and you're absolutely right about reaping what you sow. Look at it now. This is the reaping of the sowing. Barry Gordy wrongfully took the Jacksons from Steeltown, and he never paid Mr. Keith his royalties. He never did that, right? So the same label, you know, you gotta look at it now, 50 years later, and evil is still there. Barry Gordy is considered evil too, and he's still there. Still kind of, you know, use spirit, but here's the thing now, things have changed. All what you've stolen and hid it from away, Steel Town, guess what? It has arose again in your face like a freight train. And we're talking about 50 years later now. It ain't a damn thing you can do but sit back and let it do its course. And that's what's fixing to happen here. Because everything that I share to the highest of my ability is from the from Mr. Gordon Keith and all that, that also, that knew Mr. Gordon Keith, you know what I'm saying? Even in the Johnny Jackson story, I wanted to share with you also, there's about 8 viewers, 8 members, historical stars is what I call them. Some of them were childhood friends of Johnny's whenever they were in the chitlin circuit all together, and then they eventually broke away. And then some of them were like Johnny's cousins. That was in the same musical career that was, you know, that shared these things that people didn't even know of. And some of them are like the first drummer's brother of the Jackson 5, and, uh, the first manager of the group is in the documentary and is going to be at the movie premiere. So you got a lot of historical iconic people, uh, telling the story. All I ever did was put it all together. And ask questions from these people that was a part of that time. How do you think, obviously Michael Jackson has passed now, his music even now for children 5, 6, they still dance to his music, there's lots of things there, you know, from was the truth or wasn't the truth, you know, for people around that area unless you have to know. What is your view, may I ask, about the Michael Jackson, the Jackson 5? Are you willing to openly say what you believe, um, happened to Michael Jackson as a small child? Of course I can say all of those things willingly. And when you look at the situation with what you do to a child It repeats itself. If a child has never been healed, that, that same intentions doesn't know— doesn't matter what level of abuse, physical, mental abuse, if they don't get any kind of healing or cleansing, meaning counseling, someone to be there for them, someone to help them circumvent all the pain, if they don't get any of that, and then with time they will find a way to hide it, deal with it, and/or it will repeat itself no matter what you do, no matter what you say. Uh, yes, uh, I would— I could definitely share those stories, all the way from, you know, the pedophilia to everything, you know. That's how fast this whole, you know, story is. Stilltown Records, Gordon Keith, The Johnny Jackson Story— these are all umbrellas and fragments of pieces of Michael's childhood fabric. Okay, every piece of it. A child is born, um, as you know, Kenneth, with your mama and the love, um, and hey, you know, I've interviewed many people over this past year, uh, psychologists, uh, criminal psychologists are going in, but the, the basic facts are nobody teaches you to be a murderer. A pedophile, a rapist, a thief, a liar when you are a child. When you are born, you are nurtured from your mother's breast and you are brought in the world and you're taught by your peers on the gang and then the tribe. If you are being abused, you will go off. Most of those people, you know, when I was speaking to Anne McKeown, and it would be a good one for people who want to understand in deeper versions with that is because if we're hurt, if we're abused or beaten, we tend to go back. Because if we step out of that water into where the water's calmer, it's not— it doesn't feel real. You have to— you try and put things around thinking, this isn't real because I'm used to that. And they feel they don't fit. So a lot of people will tend to go back because that's where they feel safe, even though they're hurt and with all that emotion. It's better to be there because you know who they are than step outside in the unknown. And this is where the teachings, like you said, if there'd been healing, if there'd been stuff to help, if that voice was able to speak, it could have been very different. Yeah, it could have been very different, and they didn't get that. And then here goes nothing with the Giant Dragon Store. People don't know People do not— I'm giving a little hint of the movie, but that's okay. People do not know that Johnny was adopted, or Joe Jackson was Johnny's legal custodian or legal guardian as well, meaning he was adopted, or he was Johnny's parental, uh, rights. In order for Johnny to travel, uh, and leave Gary, Joe had to get permission from Johnny's existing custodian or guardian, which was Johnny Jackson's grandfather named Fort K. Jackson. Fort K. Jackson was taking care of Johnny, okay? And when the Jacksons evolved into this, Joe needed to get permission or Johnny would not have left Gary. So Johnny Jackson's grandfather gave Joe the permission to be Johnny's legal guardian so that Johnny could travel. So that meant also when they weren't traveling And when they were back in California, guess what? Johnny was part of that household. Okay, uh, bits and pieces of— but Johnny died. People don't know that, uh, that Janet paid for my, uh, for Johnny's funeral. But, and, but I'll leave it at that. That's going to really blow their minds on the funeral. Jackson paid for her cousin's funeral. Her stepbrother, you want to— stepbrother, yes, sorry, yes. When you look at stepbrother slash cousin too, eventually they later found out that they were distant relatives, but yes, she, she paid for it, correct? Oh yes, I think that is going to shock a few people. May I ask you, do you— no, let me not do you, um, a really strong question here for you. Do you think that Johnny Jackson had suffered any sexual abuse? Yes, yes. And here's why. I'll share this with you. When I was doing the actual— there's another movie too, uh, uh, it's called the, uh, Murder at 2626 Connecticut Street. That's the place where Johnny was actually murdered. This was his girlfriend's place in Gary. I wound up purchasing the property once I filmed there and I was adding towards doing the film of the Murdered 2626 project. He was murdered there. And so there was some gaps of the research that I— what I was doing, it was missing. So I said to myself, I'm going to have to create because the part had stated that his girlfriend stabbed him 17 times. So when you look at the concept of somebody being stabbed 17 times, the thing is, why? That means it's a buildup. A buildup of what? Oh, I know what we start thinking about. Yeah, to stab somebody 17 times, that's rage, that's anger, that's fury, that's unleashed, courageous anger. Correct. Coming from a woman. So the question is, even from the outside looking in Even if you heard these drastic things, you still— for somebody like me has a big question mark and you can relate. Okay, now even though she did this, that was wrong, but wait a minute now, it's something that led to her doing it. She didn't just do it. In most cases, some, some women, you can find somebody that is like that, but in this situation, you was like, nah, nah, nah, nah. So you want to look deeper into it. And then I was like, he had to have been abusive because— and even though she wasn't good for him because his band members, when he returned home, he was part of another group called the White Doves. They never liked her. Even Mr. Gordon Keith told Johnny, you need to leave her alone. Y'all both need to leave each other alone because every time you guys start to drinking, you start to fighting. And he said, one day somebody's gonna get killed if you don't leave each other alone. So she never left him alone, he never left her alone. So the results was He— she wanted to murder. So as I put it together, I started— I knew I had to create some scenes of what led to her, uh, murdering him. So in my mind, I was going to create some scenes of humiliation that Johnny did to her in front of other people. So make a long story short, I had gotten a call from some lady, and she was commenting, and she was like, yeah, you think you're doing Uh, uh, you don't know Johnny Jackson. I know Johnny Jackson. And I was like, what? So my response to her was, why don't you just sit back and wait and eat popcorn like I always tell everyone that doesn't believe, right? And then she said, uh, because I was his wife. I'm like, what? So I looked on her Facebook page and I saw she was a Jewish lady, a white Jewish lady. So I'm like— her name was Susan Jackson. So for one second we started talking And she started crying and getting emotional, and she was like, you know, I don't want to talk about Johnny anymore. And she just discontinued. But about 20 minutes later, some other person called me. It was one of her friends, and she said, I'll tell you a story, but you promise you can't say anything. I said, okay, no problem. So she started to tell me the story. She said, well, it was a time when Johnny's wife Catherine was taking care of Johnny's children and his wife at the time. But in between that, she would come and visit me. Her and Johnny would come visit me. So she said, I fixed some jambalaya rice and things of that nature. And, and she said, you know what Johnny did? I said, no. She said Johnny saturated her, his wife's, uh, red beans and rice with hot sauce and dared her not to, not eat it. So from that point on, right, That was the answer to what I was thinking. Yes, he— somebody had to abuse him. So when I look back into history, it either had to have been Forkay, who his uncle was an alcoholic, but I doubted then. Come to find out it was Joe, because in the audio, uh, that Johnny mentions in this— and it is The Johnny Jackson Story— he mentions the things that Joe did to him. Which was a reflection of what he did to Susan. So yes, because in his mind, where he was abused, he knew that abuse was wrong. And you know, the abuse that he was getting from— you're saying was Joe Jackson, um, and going on— that, that child then knew this is how you react you know, you will do this. And the fighting, you know, when we look at Ike Turner and Tina Turner, you know, it was a very highly volatile relationship. And, you know, fortunately when she's told her own stories where she's gone on to going in that. We will be coming to the end of this show, part 1. Part 2, I think we will bring Ike to continue this show because we still so much to get out. So we're going to run that immediately after the week of the 25th, so we'll get both part 1 and 2 out, and then part 3 will come out just before the showing for that. So, um, for Kenneth, you know, it's very empowering. We've still got so much to say, and, um, obviously we only have an hour on this show, but we will go straight back in, into our voice, so that this will continue for the next hour to bring the final bit to say more about the story and, you know, touch on some more of these subjects that we have in here. Because, you know, we haven't even, as we said, really touched on the Johnny Jackson yet. You know, people think, oh, well, you've got an hour of these questions that go— when you actually, an interviewer and the host that you are, and I'm very grateful for you coming on this show and to express that, but we cannot leave this door open once we've entered the room and close the door, so we're having this discussion. We need to finish this discussion, which has been, you know, a lot in it, because one of my fears is, you know, and often a fear that people fear, that if you open up and you speak, the recriminations, the fear you know, and the fear for you, you know, that somebody will want to silence your voice. Because, you know, even in that rage that happened between Johnny Jackson and his girlfriend, which led him to be struck 17 times with a knife by her, as you say, for somebody, you know, when we look at forensic science, forensic profiling, psychologists, criminologists, unfortunately, you know, when we look at that, we have to build a picture up because unless you're an absolutely, you know, in the definition in science of psychopath, there is no control, they go out and do this. This isn't somebody that wasn't— this couldn't be, you know, premeditated where someone goes out and says, yes, I'm going to do that. This was an act that happened there and then, but it had been relayed back over many years of a relationship which was highly volatile, volatile in that fact, which we will be picking up and continuing this conversation as we start to open up and tell the story of the Johnny Jackson story, more about the Jackson Five. I do hope that the listeners of this show on part 1 have enjoyed it. But just for now, I'm going to say goodbye to Kenneth where we open up to part 2, which you will hear the following. Well, thank you for coming on our show. Thank you very much for freeing your mind with LKJ. Let's talk about— on a powerful story that is probably, you know, going to want to be played over and over again. Thank you very much.