Free Your Mind With LKJ – Nick Inge, Whistleblower, ITRUST APP

Hello and welcome to this Christmas and New Year special of Free Your Mind. Let's talk about it. This Christmas period and New Year, the episodes will run concurrently. So my guest this week is the wonderful Nick Inge, and he'll be on over Christmas and New Year. So for the listeners today, I'd like to introduce this wonderful gentleman. Nick Inge, who after graduating with a BA Honours in Economics, Nick spent a gap year travelling around Australia, Hong Kong, and China, where he met his wife before returning to the UK to begin training as a Chartered Accountant. Quickly realising this was not the fun-filled, dynamic, and interesting career that he hoped it may have been, he changed tack completely, and in 1994 he joined Kent Police. He soon developed an interest in plainclothes policing and specialism in recruiting and handling informants. Not long after, he specialized in serious crime and counter-terrorism policing. This involved working alongside MI5, MI6, as well as the National Crime Agency, managing informers that were pivotal to a high-profile operations tackling terrorism, domestic extremists, serious crime, and corruption. He was promoted to sergeant in 2008, and after a brief stint back in uniform at Medway, including being a custody sergeant, he spent the rest of his career managing teams involved in all aspects of informant handling. Nick retired from the police force in June 2019. After this date, he now, um, has an app called the iTrustAssure. So I'm going to bring this wonderful, um, gentleman in that we're going to talk about his career with the police, what this, uh, iTrustAssure means, whistleblowing And, you know, did this affect, you know, mental health? You know, was there any mental health issues through having such pressure on a person to deal with this? How do they cope with that? How do they cope? And hopefully Nick is going to send us in this next hour's journey of a wonderful insight to a mastermind to be able to deal with so empowerment that is put upon one's head as a police officer, and obviously, you know, somebody that's created an iTrust app. So I'm going to bring him in. Hi Nick, are you there? I am, Jags. Thank you for having me on the show. Really nice to be here. Thank you. Yes, wonderful. So Nick, you know, I'm sure our listeners will be very intrigued with the guests that we have on, you you know, over the Christmas and New Year and kept this as a nice special for them as we look, you know, back at your career and about whistleblowing. And also, you are a published author, so we'll talk about those two books as well, if we may. And come in, but can I take you back to the childhood so we can actually bring out who you were as a child, schooling, etc., like that? Because, you know, people do suffer bullying, they suffer different aspects. Do you— did you have any of these issues yourself. So, um, I believe you were born in Southampton. Yeah, I was born in Southampton in 1969, a long time ago, last century and all that. And my dad was in the army, um, we moved around quite a lot between the UK and Germany, um, so I had a bit of a disruptive education in terms of being the son of a, of a soldier, um, and then Like I said, we moved between the UK and Germany, and then at age 11, um, I was packed off to a boarding school in Dover in Kent and spent the next 7 years studying there. Left when I was 18 and realized that I'd had a very, I suppose, closed education in terms of not seeing much life outside of the Army, being a, you know, sort of a soldier. So having realized, I suppose, that there was more to life than just a military upbringing, I took a gap year because I didn't really know what I wanted to do, to be honest. I just thought, well, I'll see what, what happens. So I did various jobs. I worked on the hovercraft between Dover and France when it existed. I taught in a boarding school near Oxford for a couple of terms as a supplementary teacher, I suppose, helping out, mainly setting up chemistry lessons and, you know, supervising library periods. But I soon got thrown into, you're actually teaching religious studies, which I'd given up at, you know, my third year in Old Money. And then I traveled a little bit in Europe on the train, and then, yeah, did various bits and bobs, and then went off to Newcastle Poly to do— when it was a poly— to do economics, which was more of a drinking degree, to be fair. I came out of there with a 2:2 after 3 years and took another gap year because I still didn't know what I wanted to do. And yeah, went traveling, like you said, in Southeast Asia, well, Australia and Hong Kong and a little bit in Brunei. So yeah, in terms of my upbringing, it was very varied and I didn't really settle. I suppose that's because of the upbringing I had, and that's no disrespect to my parents who are still around and I love them dearly, but Yeah, it was very disruptive, and I suppose it made me the person that I am now in terms of the resilience, I suppose, because you don't really settle and you don't really make very close friends, because every time you do try and make friends, you're often at another school. So, um, I suppose it made me relatively, relatively independent from a very early age. Yes, and for people that don't understand that, you know, like the boarding school, um, was that Dover College, or did you go to the Duke of York's? Duke of York's, yeah. Yorkshire. I know a few of the, um, Major Mike Carlson, etc., and the wonderful— he married a lovely head teacher over there. So I know quite a few of them, the English teachers too, and that from, um, there, because obviously with the military school, and my son, uh, was military, and obviously with, um, his daughter, you know, obviously going Dover College, etc., like that, you know. So it's very different when, you know, you are working with the army life, etc., that goes on. And quite right, like you're saying, because you're taught a different mindset, aren't you, when you're brought this way, where everybody else is going to standard secondary going on. So it is difficult, you know, when you're making friends and to go on to do it. But it obviously taught you how to be quite isolated and to work in your own zone. Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, you do have to become very independent at a very young age and very resilient because there's lots of issues in terms of they haven't got your parents around to speak to on a regular basis. I mean, the internet didn't exist then, so it was all writing letters. And so you had to be very, like I say, resilient, independent, which made me the person I am now, I suppose. And in those years, you didn't realize that when you're in sort of formative years, and it could be quite harsh harsh environment to grow up in. I mean, it was all boys. Yeah, as I know myself, the Duke of York's Military School, every Sunday up, you know, marching, doing uniform on, doing that, you know, the swimming. And then, you know, it was very, very strict, but great, you know, great, you know. And people always wonder, you know, what goes on behind those walls. But, you know, when you have to get up and march, you've got the church. They're very strict, but it teaches you discipline, doesn't it, in one way. But discipline with loneliness, you know, you're waiting, you know, then to go off to, you know, when Christmas and that comes to go off, you've got that wonderful carol service they hold, don't they, in the church, etc., there. And yeah, you know, there are many occasions on that side. But when you look at that, and when you look at other friends, you know, for my son and stuff, you know, he made friends with somebody that was outside of school, you know, etc., and was great, you know, but my son didn't realize why, because you just, even if you lived in the area, you still had to walk because you were military. Whether your father was based in Folkestone, Barrackshire, you still had to go to that school and you could only go home in the holidays. And people, you know, and friends around didn't understand that. So yeah, it's difficult, like you're saying. Did you find that hard, Nick? You know, when people are listening to the show, You know, you're saying that, you know, with people, you know, when they think of the families and, you know, we all love our parents that have done that and working very hard and dealing with this, you know, for the education and going through the East Lothian, going on obviously because they do push a lot of sports and they're very competitive, the Duke of York's Army, with being a military school and obviously the rugby, the netball, and, you know, got to be the best of the best, you know, they— which they include, because obviously um, with a family background, etc., that you were doing. So do you think that discipline and what you had, um, made you decide to become a police officer? Yeah, I think so. In hindsight, it definitely gave you those qualities that you need as a police officer. Um, it does. And I'm not, I'm not a hard man, but it does make you quite hard because you have to be that way to get through that type of schooling. It's changed a lot since I was there. You know, it's, you know, boys and girls and there's less of a military angle on it. But yeah, I mean, in 1980 when I first went there, we were marching to breakfast, parades every other Sunday, very military coming out of the 1960s and '70s. And yeah, not really much outside influence in the school. And I remember, like I said, going to Newcastle Polytechnic and thinking that, why didn't people march to breakfast? I thought that was quite normal, you know. And my friends are thinking, what sort of environment you've been brought up in? But at the time, it was what it was, you know. You didn't know any different. And, you know, into my— I mean, they've changed the, the grading to the school and the, you know, the terminology in terms of the school years. But we used to have to go into Dover in school uniform. When you can imagine, we were, we were like sitting ducks to the local, local teenagers who thought it was a good laugh to try and wind us up. But we thought very much of it. Very Pentecostal part. You remember on Saturday morning when you were still at school, you know, in Dover College, you know, saying all the usual, you're going there, and then the local secondary school were ready to, you know, the bullying, the fighting they used to go through. I don't know if you experienced that, but I know for ourselves and with my son and that, you know, there was quite a lot of that. You have to be careful. And then him becoming a soldier as well. Was very hard for him as well, you know, because your mind is— you're of a different mindset. Yeah, it is a different mindset, and you— but you don't know any different, if that makes sense. I think if I had experienced, in inverted commas, a normal school, I could have compared and contrasted. But when I didn't know any different and everyone's in the same boat and they're all from a background where their dads were in the army, literally, there was— you were— there was a sort of a spirit of us against them, I suppose, to a point. And when you've got that military— but I mean, obviously weren't in the army, but we're in the— they had a CCF, Combined Cadet Force, and it was that sort of, well, if it's not, if it's not, you know, the, the full-time soldiers and then it's reservists, then it's us going to get called to the Falklands. It was, it was that sort of mentality, which was quite absurd. But it was, yeah, very much a— I say esprit de corps, a wrong expression— but it was very much the Duke of York's, we're the Dukeys, and you know, we're going to try our best, and that hasn't changed. And that's a good thing to have because you strive to be the best. But like I say, there's a balance in life sometimes. I soon realized there was a life outside of the school, and that's no disrespect to the school because that's what it was. But, you know, there was certainly my— in my world, there was definitely, definitely a what's over the fence and what could life be like outside of military environment. And that's what I sought to, to find, I suppose. Yeah, completely. Because where it has changed now, like we're talking about, like with Dover College, you know, some of the children can go You know, so people are in the military, they'll go, for instance, to Dover College, you know, from the age of 4 up, and then they have that choice if they want to go to, you know, the Duke of York's, or they can go into mainstream, you know, and do that. It depends on the individual that's going through, although if you are military, it tends to be pushing more forward onto that. But obviously, as you say, you know, when we're looking at a mindset that's coming there, For you to go and see, you did, there was tackles, you know, and stuff that was in there. So you wasn't really bullied or anything like that. You just, this was what you did and you did that every day and marched, you know, say to breakfast, say you did your uniform going on and that's how it was, your free time, et cetera, to be the best that you was. And what it seems is from that grounding of your education at that small age and going through, although quite lonely, it empowered you to be, you know, a strong individual. Obviously in your bio you're saying, you know, if you wanted to be an accountant, that's very dry, um, job, you know. A lot of people say that, like, an accountant's a very mindset, aren't they? Very driven to be sitting punching these numbers all day. But obviously was no dynamics or that there for you, is obviously wanting that and joining the police force was like going on the beat, you know, bringing this set about, bringing law and order. To the streets and doing that in, in what you were bringing from that school. So, and obviously then going into being a plainclothes officer. Yeah, I mean, like I say, in hindsight, the school gave me that discipline that I wanted in the rest of my life, I suppose, and, uh, and the routine which the police gave me, which I didn't realize when I was at school that I'd even think about joining the police. I mean, the Chartered Accountancy thing came along because I got my degree in economics and I thought well, that was just a natural fit. But there's more to life than just natural fits when it comes to what I thought economics was going to lead me into. And I've got a very chatty, lively, gregarious sort of personality, and I can't change that. And I suppose, I mean, I've got plenty faults, but one of my strengths is I can chat and I can make— I'm no comedian, believe you me, but I can sort of make light of certain situations. And I suppose that's what got me through school, because you play to your strengths. And I'm not a hard man. I'm not 6 foot 7. You know, kicking in doors like some people are in the police and firearms and the roughy-tufty side of it. I never was at school, but I suppose I can chat and I can listen, and that's what qualities got me into the plainclothes covert policing role, because I enjoyed listening to people, recruiting people, getting information out of people, and striking up a conversation with complete strangers and recruiting them and then getting their— putting their trust in me. And I suppose that goes back to my schooling where you had to make friends very quickly, you had to strike up conversations with strangers very quickly because that was the environment I was brought up in. I suppose that's what qualities they— that schooling gave me, and I took that into the police. Not that I set out to become a plainclothes copper or go into that world, but it just happened. And you know, that's what the beauty of life's about half the time, isn't it? That you don't know. Hashtag you never know, which is— I'll come into World You Wise later on, which is my social enterprise which I co-founded with a fellow called Trevel Henry. But you don't know what's out there, you don't know what's around the corner, and certainly when I joined the police, I just thought it was about uniform, driving around, walking around, you know, arresting people. But there's far more to policing than that, and I think that's what the beauty of the police does for people in terms of a career option. I mean, maybe not so much now because it got cut back a lot, and I know they're expanding again now, but certainly in a provincial force, like Kent, you know, there's a range of opportunities, maybe not as big as some of the big forces like the Met or Greater Manchester Police, but there's lots of opportunities within the police, and I suppose that gave me the variety in a career but still having that sense of belonging like the school gave me and the Army gives people. I mean, the police is not the Army, believe you me, but it gives you that sense of belonging to a large, organized, disciplined organization. If that makes sense. Yes, completely, because, you know, and it's that family unit, isn't it? And when you have something like the police force or the army, etc., you are one large family in, in that section and going through and working, you know, diverting off different journeys and roads that you'll have there, which, um, you know, like you're saying, coming out from uniform into being a plain clothed police officer, you know, and there must have been a lot of pressure. There must be a lot of pressure on yourselves, you know, obviously for people outside of the police force, you know, you've got all these demands, you know, targets to hit and everything like that, which is pressure yourself. And, you know, you see a lot of police officers suffering from post-traumatic stress, stress, sorry, syndrome, etc. And obviously they, you know, they get hurt, and but everyone thinks that, you know, they're all corrupt and they're going off and doing— which, um, I don't believe so. They're doing a job like everybody else goes to work. They're going to work and doing their job at the end of the day. That's what they're doing. When you went to work, you was doing that. But being playing close in intelligence, obviously that, you know, took you on a more in-depth Am I correct saying that'd be more in-depth? I suppose any role in the police is in-depth when you get into it to a certain extent. It's certainly not a special role. I mean, I always said when I got promoted to my teams that if you think you're special just because you're in plain clothes, the hardest job I think in the police are people in uniform working, you know, early, late nights in town centres and dealing with all sorts of horrible incidents. And then having to deal with another horrible incident and then going home to their families and partners, and if they haven't got any, they've got to go home by themselves and then go back the next day with all the different pressures that come with that. And then it's cumulative in terms of that building, and yeah, it's a tough job, and I don't think people realize it when they watch the TV. Just like a lot of emergency service jobs, and lots of jobs to be fair, but particularly the police, where you've seen the worst of life all the time, you don't very rarely get praise because the public expect you to be doing that job catching the baddies and sorting lots of different issues out. I mean, you go, you know, from one call which could be a domestic-related incident to a, you know, a traffic accident to a shop, whatever it might be, and you're going from job to job to job to job to job, and then all of a sudden, right, then you've got to stay on late at the end of your shift and you're tired and you're cold and you're hungry, and then you've got to do all that again the next day. And then it is a full-on job, and I don't think people realize just how pressurised it is. I get that in terms of, you know, the emergency services, but there's a lot of pressure in the police. And certainly, yeah, I mean, there's good and bad in every organisation. I've worked with fantastic people and there's lots of friends of mine still in the job. I mean, I could still be in the police if I hadn't retired at age 50, but I chose to come out when I did because I want to do something else in my life. But there's lots of amazing people in the police doing a really, really difficult job. There's a few bad apples which you come across in every organization, but certainly the police, it really goes against the grain for me. And I did everything in the police to the best of my ability, you know, to the highest quality, I'd like to think, and worked hard. But what gets me and got me, I suppose, was the element of corruption in the police, which is not widespread at all, but there's certainly an element of people who, when you find out, when you're running informants into corruption who are not swimming in the same, in the same direction as everyone else, put it that way, that's unfair. And that, you know, you think, 'Hold on a minute, this is more than money, this is about pride and doing the right thing.' When people are plainly going out their way to scupper what you're doing, certainly in a very sensitive role, it really sticks in the throat. Because when you join any organisation, you think it's all going to be fantastic and a great career, and you just get to the point where, I mean, I got a bit sick of dealing with that side of it and maybe it not being investigated as fully as I thought it should be. That's not my prerogative at the end of the day, that was other managers, senior managers, who made that decision. But I think sometimes when there's intelligence to suggest certain avenues of investigation should have been pursued and they weren't, and I won't say any more than that, then that really goes against the grain. And maybe that's one of the reasons why I got out when I did. Be very careful when we're talking in in these areas like that. But when you are talking about the corruption and stuff like that, I mean, for the Metropolitan Police, you're saying about the general public, and when we have that awful, um, murder of the wonderful Julia— she was lovely, you know— PCSO, that's coming up. So obviously we can't talk too much about that, um, because obviously there's a trial and media law, please accept like that, and, you know, Everyone's got a fight to go on there. But we can talk about another gentleman that obviously has probably horrified and put a lot of shame onto the police force, which you probably had many discussions with. The gentleman, Wayne Cousins, on the Sarah Everard. Yeah, I mean, obviously absolutely abhorrent and disgusting. And, you know, he was caught right and rightly so and sentenced, and, um, he's going to spend a very long time in prison. Um, I was a reporter on that, um, you know, when I was at Clapham and all, you know, and the police and all the shouting and everything that was going on there, you know, the wrongs and the rights, you know, that were going on and the anger that was come on there. But, you know, people feeling this anger towards the police, but, you know, not everybody is like that. That was, like you say, he was one bad apple. That obviously was in that, um, in the force. But when you do profiling, as you know, um, and you can tell me that I've got forensic, um, science and profiling, you need to do stuff on that. Um, I've got criminology, advanced criminology, criminal procedures. I've been very interested on it. And the reason I took those exams, and that was like when I was, you know, covering Sarah Everard, when you were interviewing somebody I like to get onto the same platform, and I don't know if that's how your mindset came as well. If I'm interviewing somebody and I need to look that person in the eye and they're looking back and to understand, you know, what they're doing, I'd love to get in there and have an interview with that gentleman. And who knows, you know, I wanted to actually find out what does that— obviously with mental health and everything going in there, and it is hard and it is a hard job. But don't tie everybody with the same brush. And, you know, I was talking to— I just finished a two-part interview with Dr. Ashok Jansari, and one of his things is he had to, you know, the poisoning situation that he had, he was brought in on that, you know, talking about face recognition, you know, how the brain brings it on. And they're working very much now with the Met Police, that, um, with rehabilitation, that they can work with these people. Because he believes that people as children, you know, they may have had a brain injury or something like Fred West. Fred West was perfectly, you know, wasn't— didn't turn to crime until he was 19, but he'd had a head injury. And they're believing it's, um on that reason, you know, that the head injury was on there. You know, a bit like somebody has a tumor, there's stuff on there. But obviously there's medical, there's policing, there's profiling, and so much to anything when you're building and dealing with this. And I have family members that are, um, in the police force, but they've retired now. One was, uh, one worked at, um Paddington, uh, that was the terrorism. Is that Paddington? Paddington Green? Yeah. Um, and, you know, specialized. And then he became Chief Superintendent of Kent Police, but he's retired now. Um, and then, um, my cousin, you know, he ran a team of 40 people in Wales, you know, doing training and everything like that. And he's now doing my web design. He's a fantastic web designer. He's retired. Like you, you've gone into a different sort of avenue and dealing with stuff like that. And they've worked very hard and committed to it. And when I was speaking to him the other day, he just said it just angers him that, you know, people have lost their trust in somebody. But is this where the whistleblowing comes in? Because you've got two books, um, haven't you? You brought out— so if you can explain, if I may just jump a little bit to the viewers and listeners to this, that you now published also after leaving the police force. Because was this whistleblowing on the police force, or, or these rotten apples, or, or, you know, just so that you can express to the listener what your two books are about, which I've read, which are fantastic. And very truthful, very honest. And you can buy them on Amazon, and I would recommend anybody to have a look at these two books. And it's not about you coming on here just to sell your books. You're talking about mental health, we're talking about the police, you know, we're all under this, um, attack, you know, through our lives, through different stuff. But it's getting that balance. So I just want to just give a little head, if I may, just to go on to This Whistleblowing in Jeopardy, they're the name of your books, so I think it's quite a nice time to talk about that to the listeners so they can understand, and if it does relate to the police. Does that fit well with you? Yeah, absolutely, Jags. Yeah, thank you. So basically what happened was, I mean, I spent most of my service, um, running informants, recruiting informants, and managing teams that did the same. And I'd always had this— I suppose it's my economics drove chartered accountancy, business head, thinking, do you know what, I'd like to run my own business at some point. And, um, using the skills that I'd picked up in the police, um, in terms of informant handling, realized there was a growing need in the corporate world outside of the public sector for people to be heard, i.e., whistleblowers. And taking that, like I say, skill set from being a handler in the police looking after criminal whistleblowers and knowing the psychological pressures that they go under, as well as being on the other side as a police officer knowing the pressures that you go under managing those sorts of people who are talking from issues such as shoplifting through to counter-terrorism and what have you. So the full gambit, and that's not talking it up at all, but that's just reality of what happened. And realising, like I say, there was a market outside for protecting people. So I set up my limited company, I Trust Assurance, in 2017 as a dormant company with half a view on potentially going at age 50 when I could do, um, and then with a view of writing a book. Well, now I'd hardly read any book, sadly, um, which I, you know, I'm ashamed to admit since I left school. But I thought, you know, if I write a book, I'd love to be able to leave this planet with something that I could actually say is mine. And, you know, I'm no builder or designer. I've even hardly put up shelves, Jags. But I thought, if I leave this planet with something that I could write down, it was— if I was to keel over tomorrow, people go, you know, Nick Hinge, hopefully he's half decent human and he's written something that might help inspire one person to be able to call out the truth. In the same way, I used to recruit informants saying, look, you know, you know what's going on, um, and we would really like to help, you know, you in terms of keeping you safe and giving you reward. This is criminal whistleblowers, as it were, informants. But doing the same, well, same thing in the corporate world where, you know, people are experiencing bullying or racism or sexual misconduct or witnesses, you know, to fraud or theft or corruption, and we can keep them safe. So that's what I did. I wrote the first book, Exposing the Truth: Whistleblowing Uncovered, which is a journey for people who have either not made a disclosure yet, they've made a disclosure, and they're in the middle of that journey, as well as people who've come out the other end and all the reasons and the emotions that they feel in that process. So it was meant to be, and it is, a guide, a crutch for people to lean on, because it can be a very lonely place. And when I was dealing with informants in the police, you know, it can be really— well, it is a very, very lonely place. And the only people they can really offload on, because they don't want to tell anyone what they're doing, is the two police handlers, or the number of police handlers that look after them, sorry. But in the corporate world, you know, if we can create a platform, a digital platform where people can believe in that and trust that platform for them to call out wrongdoing in the workplace, and then, you know, so be it. And that's what we've done. So the first book is about that journey. The second book— so the first book is a non-fiction, the second book's a fictional book, complete fiction obviously, Jag, based on experiences that I'd learned about and felt whilst I was serving officer. So it's all fiction, like I say, but it's, it's helping people, it's empowering people to tell the truth but keeping them safe at the same time. Now, when I do presentations to various groups, the first question I ask people is put your hand up if you've ever been a grass or a snitch, and very few people in the room, funny enough, do, those that do very bravely admit to their colleagues, friends, that they have spoken up, not whistleblowing because whistleblowing is a very negative term, spoken up as being very brave and trying to create a positive narrative. And I say to them, look, you're very brave and I'm glad that you shared that tale and your honesty about putting your hand up, but with all due respect, everyone in this room has probably grasped someone else up somehow or somewhere in their life to another person where it might be a teacher when they're at primary school, but as— or to their parents or whatever about their siblings who might not have done something quite right in the home. But as you get older, you're less inclined to do so because you, you don't want to be seen as that pariah amongst your, your, your, your peers in your company. Because if you do, then the stakes are higher because you could lose your job because they'll, funnily enough, make you redundant, or you'll get ostracized and you want to leave. So, you know, it's the whole empowerment angle of life really, and speaking up and the mental health angle where, you know, a problem shared is a problem halved. And, you know, I'm not a counselor, don't profess to be a doctor or anything like that at all, but you know, by speaking to people and getting it off your chest, that's one of the biggest, biggest pain relievers you can imagine when you're burdened with something that you know about but you have to offload. But if you haven't got that escape route in terms of knowing where to turn, then where do you go? And it eats you up. And I say commonly that what happens in businesses is that people know something, they don't know what to do. If they don't offload internally, anonymously, then what happens is they end up going off sick a lot of the time, or they'll change roles because they can't bear to let— to see the ongoing issue that it is. Or they become what I call the internal terrorist, so they get their revenge another way, or they stay silent and nothing happens at all, and they— and it just eats them up. So there's a, there's a whole— and you see it on the news all the time, Jax, at the minute. I mean, I look out for it because it's my world in which I work, but there are stories virtually in the press every day about people calling out wrongdoing. And if company doesn't get it right internally and create healthy— a healthy speak-up culture, what happens is people nowadays are very, very happy to go on social media and go on to platforms like Glassdoor and basically berate the company that they work for, or are working for, or have worked for, and before you know it their headlines are hitting the papers about racism in cricket, for example, or issues in PPE in the NHS, or bullying in whatever it might be, you know, and companies being encouraged to create this healthy speak-up culture because what happens is it's a nice environment for people to come into work, and they don't feel stressed going into work, going home from work, offloading on their partners, friends, and family, and it's just a better place to be. And like, like, you know, like I said, it's not a great place to be as an individual when you know something and can't offload. And if your company supports you by providing a very, very effective mechanism by which you can speak up, then, then they're on to a good thing, because there's lots of issues in, in certainly the labour market at the minute where there is a lack of labour in lots of different industries, and if they can encourage people to come to work for them because they have got this lovely work environment, but nice working culture, then they're going to attract certainly a younger generation of people who want to go and work in those organisations. They don't necessarily want to go there for the money. They want to be happy when they go to work, not earning a massive, massive salary, but, you know, absolutely hate going into work because they're worried about being bullied or the pressure's too great. They want to go into a nice, nice environment, and who doesn't? And that's what we've done by developing our app, and this is not the hard sell for the app at all, but we've done it from a perspective of our experience as ex-covert police officers, our experience in business, and our experience in terms of speaking to businesses and finding out what they want. And the app is certainly not a tick box for any regulator that an organisation might belong to in terms of having to have something where people can speak up. There's plenty of organisations that don't have any whistleblowing policy, let alone a mechanism So we've created it and designed it so that it engenders the trust in the user, so they're more inclined to want to speak up rather than going, 'This is a telephone hotline, where's your evidence? This is just effectively two cans and a bit of string.' Our digital app is far more than that, and, you know, if you give me a chance in 5 minutes, I can talk through, if you wanted to, how the app works in more detail. But like I say, it's not the hard sell, but we're very passionate about what we what we do, and there's a lot of provenance and research gone into why we're doing it and what we're doing, and it's really going down well and being very well received. Yeah, completely, because, you know, we are looking at business where we go to work and we want that trust. And as you were saying, the mental stress— if you know that you're going into work and you're doing your job and you're doing it to your best ability, but you know the other person isn't quite doing it— like, for instance, if you're on a building site, you know, people are working in the office and they know someone is breaking that health and safety law and thinking, oh, I don't say anything because they'll know it's me. And they have that pressure, and if there was an accident or like all silly things or a major accident, and somebody has to have that mental pressure that's going on, you know, saying, but if I speak up, their life would be hell, you know. And for doing that, but what you've created is something that is quite private, if I understand this correctly. So if you are at work, say you're on a building site, for instance, and this is— I'm hoping I've got it the right way, but I'm hoping the listener, if I use this as an example, can put it— and I would like to try it across in certain sectors of the work. But like, if I was working in the office and perhaps I was admin, you know, secretary in there, But I knew, and I looked out the window and saw these guys, you know, doing something on a roof. You know, they were above 2 meters where health and safety should, you know, ensure that your hard hat, what you've got to wear, you know, and not the scaffolding. They're putting windows in, there's no scaffolding. If I say anything, they'll know I was the only person here at that time and could see what was happening, so I can't go home. And then perhaps the next day you went back in, you still kept quiet, somebody fell and hurt themselves, and, you know, seriously, and then they lost themselves, you still couldn't say anything. On your app, could you report that on your app that this is happening? But it would be a way that that person, you know, wouldn't then suffer because, you know, with informants or anybody, if you're telling the truth and you're going to out somebody you're going to get a lot of, you know, emotional stress back. So that's why you're saying some people would leave and go, 'Do you know what, I can't work here anymore, I'm going to work for somebody else,' and this carries on. Is that what your app does? It takes that fear away? Yeah, absolutely. So if we sort of go right back to how the app was being designed, the onboarding process, the client buys the app for their staff to use to report to us as a third party what the issue is. So I always said that we haven't got much competition in terms of speak-up mechanisms in the market at all. And but if you don't get it right from a user perspective, the user doesn't— the staff member doesn't trust the system. They're not going to report anything. So in terms of KPIs, the client thinks there's nothing more because they get no returns. What's the point of having the system? So the system is built so the user has the utmost trust in the system. When they, when they link into the system, the system doesn't record their mobile number. That's all they have to give. They don't have to give any real details at all. No IP addresses are tracked, so they have absolute faith that they are in the most secure environment in terms of keeping their anonymity. They have the choice when they go through the process in the app itself of stating if they want to be known or not, but that's not a given. They can make that choice. But what happens is, with our experience in covert policing and managing informants, we can keep them safe in terms of how the information that they provide is given to their, their organization. So if it's a very tight circle of knowledge, for example, we can ensure that the wording that the client gets doesn't come back on identify the source of the information, i.e., the user. When it comes to evidence, and this is, I suppose, what differentiates us amongst the vast majority of other people in our arena, but there aren't many at all, like I said. What happens is on the app you can either take a photograph, you can take a video, you can upload a document, you can upload a voice note, you can take anything in terms of any recording so that when the client, i.e., their employer, gets this disclosure, they've got evidence on which to work. So say, for example, In the case that you just highlighted, Jag, so there's someone looking out of a window and sees a building site and sees unsafe practice, what potentially we could do is put a report into the client to say this has been going on for some days or weeks. And what they do is instead of it coming back onto the user, i.e., the staff member who's reported it, because they're going to be anonymous anyway, the client can then go do a spot check on that site and catch the people in the act. So there's more than one way to skin a cat, excuse the expression. So it keeps that source safe, and that's only employing the tactics and the skills that we learned whilst we're in the police. So in the police, you know, if someone's going to report, I don't know, for the top of my head, you know, a burglary is going to take place and there's only a few people know, there's ways of dealing with that that protects the informant. In the same way you can do it in the corporate world, and the person that's, you know, going home at night with that pressure of, oh my goodness, when am I going to say say something or not. They know that they can offload and make a disclosure knowing that they're going to be kept safe, which is an absolute bonus. And for the client, it means that they're getting told the truth and not, you know, potentially dealing with a death on their site or in their building, which is going to be far worse in terms of obviously the Health and Safety Executive, in terms of what the reputation of business is going to be like, what their clients are going to think. You know, all these issues can be dealt with at a very low level. And we say the app is a dashboard for the business, it's like a dash— sorry, a dashcam for the business. It's a way of seeing what's coming over the horizon, as it were, and dealing with it, nipping it in the bud. And not only have we created a platform that people can speak up anonymously about less savory things in the work environment, but they can also— and speaking up is more about— is more than just uncovering and reporting wrongdoing. Speaking up is about having the courage to speak out about lots of different things in business. So we've created inside the app a button where people can suggest a change, for example. So it's like an electronic suggestion box. They can also praise the organization anonymously if that needs happening. You know, they could have had a great Christmas party or something along those lines, if it happens this year, obviously. Or they can praise someone who should be getting praise, who's not being recognized. And also the client can customise one of the buttons as well. So certainly in the construction industry, we've got a client that's customising the button in terms of near-miss reporting function, which then means that when the user, i.e., the staff member, has the app on their phone, it means that they are not just using it as a tool to report wrongdoing. They're seeing it as a tool to report lots of other things, which is a positive as well. Which is great. We don't want to see it as a toxic tool, we don't see it as a toxic app, we don't see it as a toxic hotline to grass your mates up. It's more than, it's far more than that. It's about empowering staff, and like I say, we're not a medical profession, we don't profess to be, but that whole ability to go on your app in the middle of the night at the weekend when you're not at work and you think of something, oh, do you know what, I'm gonna, or you're in the middle of a building site, you know, it's blown a hoolie and you're not going to go back into the office for the next 3 weeks because— and then you're thinking, what's that? You've got the ability on your phone to do it there and then anonymously. If you want to, you can, like I say, decide that you want to be known because some people want to be known if they're going to praise someone or suggest a change or whatever it might be. And some people don't mind being known as the person that reported the bully or the racist because you know, they're maybe a bit thicker-skinned and less worried about what the consequences or what people might think of them, because they might be coming to the end of their career or they might be moving jobs and they don't care, they've had enough, they're sick of it, they're going to go, "Do you know what, I'm going to report this because it's been going on for too long," and— or they might not be the victim, they might be the witness, they might have been confided in by a colleague who said, "Look, I've been the victim of this, this, and this, and this," and then go, "Do you know what, I'm gonna do something about it now because this can't continue," because the person who's the victim is too scared. So there's lots of different reasons why and lots of different ways in which we've created the app. So it means that the user can actually have complete faith in it and believe in what they're using. Yes, exactly, because this app, when somebody's reporting, you're saving lives. I mean, let's take for example, if you'd retired 10 years ago, That app could have saved 4 people's lives. For instance, with the Gleison Colliery disaster, 4 people— Charles Breslin, David Powell, Philip Hill, and Gary Jenkins— were killed when a planned explosion brought a fatal flood into the mine. But people and the miners had been complaining earlier about water coming in. You know, this was, you know, serious stuff. And then the mine owners were cleared. You know, there was manslaughter charges brought, and they were cleared of this. But there's still, um, people are still going on. It's still, you know, obviously we've just had the 10th anniversary, haven't we, in September when this happened. But when things are going wrong, if people, instead of saying this wasn't feeding back to the mine owners, and they were saying if they had known about this, they would have dealt with it. They didn't know this water was coming, and that's why they were acquitted. But there's still a lot of anger and everything on there, um, you know, and obviously with the rescue people that went in and, and dealt with that, that is why in construction, etc., now if you see something, you— there is— you can prevent a disaster, and you're actually doing it, and it's a lot on your conscience what you're doing. But at the same time, for the lady, you know, that's almost lost everything in that, you know, with all her legal fees, saying, if I'd have known that— and her own mental health is still being— to sort of— poor people died because of this, that had there been at all— and just go through that, perhaps it wasn't fed back, is what she's saying. There are a lot of things in Wales still, you know, about this, um, tragedy that As I say, if somebody put on that, you know, this water was seeping through, it fed back, and they could have done an inspection. I know in hindsight and everything like that, and it's great app that you have now that could prevent that, you know, in these private mines, you know, that are going on. And you are going to save somebody's life. So for the listeners who are in something like that, you have to think of the risk and coming forward. They don't mentally have that in your mind, go on to this app and deal with it. Because sometimes the owners don't know. When you're working in a big industry, Nick, you know, and something's going on there, you know, to say, you know, somebody who's disabled or somebody's playing a practical joke or leaving something that can cause— because of disability inequality, you get bullying, you hear all these subjects going on and reporting. As you've been the owner of your company, many organisations are horrified to see this happens because sometimes your organisation is so big, so we have these huge HR departments, etc., trying to deal with everything, and you don't know. But if you know, then you're happy to do it because you don't want to have somebody's death on your hand, you don't want an accident on there, you don't want to break the law, but you're If you're the CEO of a large organization or even small ones, it happens in there. Being honest and truthful and go on the app and do all this. And also the way you've done it so that they are covered. So you think, if I go on that, the way that you word it, it's gone. They would never know it wasn't me in the office. It could be somebody that walked past and seen that, you know, that taken a wrong turn into the, you know, the yard. Oh God, I've come in the yard, I should have taken the turn before on the industrial estate. Am I correct in saying, you know, in reading that? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And also as well, I mean, for a company that employs it or deploys it, sorry, or both, it means that outwardly facing for their clients and future employees. They are seen as an open, honest, and transparent business to do business with, and who doesn't want to do business with that sort of organization? And what it also means is that if they have a very effective Speak Up mechanism, it means that people in the organization are less likely to do anything that's wrong. So it's a win-win. It's harder to argue against having it than it is for it. Why wouldn't you want it? Because you want to be seen to be open and honest and transparent. You don't want to be dealing with issues when, you know, tragically people die because of your organisation's lack of ability in terms of health and safety, for example, and all the repercussions that come with that. You want to be able to say, I've got this insurance policy, I've got an app which I'm willing to, you know, deploy amongst my staff because I want to hear them, I want to hear their voice, I want to hear their suggestions, I want to hear about near misses because I don't want to be dealing with tragedies. And I think, why wouldn't you want to have it rather than either nothing at all, like some people or some organizations have— and I can't believe in the 21st century they don't have anything— or they just have literally a telephone hotline which is outsourced, and you're thinking, well, what is the point of that? Not saying nothing against them at all, but if I was the user, would I be really using that sort of system? And I just don't think that, you know, I mean, you look at apps, I mean, everyone's on their phones nowadays, everyone's on their, on their apps doing all sorts of different things. It's not even if it's going to be a suspicious activity, someone's on their phone making a disclosure, and even if they are, on the app itself it doesn't store the disclosure so that if anyone actually forced someone to use their app, they would never even know that they've actually used it to send a report because it doesn't store it on the app. And they could always say, well, I was suggesting a change, or I was positively praising someone, or I was whatever it might be. So they're covered both ways, and, you know, I'd like to say that an organisation would— I don't see why they wouldn't want it to be honest, but that's just my very biased opinion because it's our app and we're very proud of it. No, but I totally agree with that because, as you were saying, when you go into your, you know, for your interview, you come with what you bring to the table with your CV and your, you know, what you're going to bring to the table in your interview. It's nice to think when you look up and work— oh, they've got their health and safety up. Who is the first aid officer? Who is this, you know, who's dealing, um, you know, with those sectors on that? You know, if you have an accident, major accident, but you've got your first aid thing, and then you've got your insurance policy, public liability insurance. Why wouldn't you have this? We are confident and happy for you to report if you see anything, because we are— our priority is our staff, for our staff to be protected and well coerced and knowing that if this is wrong, if somebody's cut their finger, you would go and report it in the book, not, oh, I don't want to be that, and with the insurance company and you being sued. Because, you know, people say we've become very Americanized in that, you know, before you slip at work, you know, did they have the, you know, non-slip type sign up? Did they have this? And companies have rose to that now and gone and covered themselves with that. So why are you not covering yourself with that bit extra? And for all those companies that do, I praise them completely, because every staff member knows you are honest and your integrity as a company, and you look after your staff, you're there, you don't want accidents, you don't want to have that. You're all people with a conscience. Yeah, absolutely. And I go back right to sort of, I don't know, the beginning of why I decided to start iTrustUp, and, and, and the, the buzz I suppose I got out of recruiting informants, knowing that if I recruited someone who maybe hadn't got an inkling about reporting criminal wrongdoing, and on the back of it we created some information that led to the start of Operation Whatever It Was, and then people got arrested for whatever crime they were committing. In the same way, that was the sort of buzz I got out of that, the dopamine fix I suppose. In the same way that creating a digital platform, well, which people can report wrongdoing and it helps just one person— I know it sounds a bit cheesy and a bit sort of up my own bottom sometimes, but It's like, you know what, we've actually done something that people can actually believe in. They've used practically, and it's about that empowerment for me without getting off on it. But it's that we've actually done this from with a blank canvas. We've thought about it. We created something. Someone's actually believed in it and used it who I've never even— I'll never meet. We've managed to report and it's gone through to the client and someone's life's been saved or whatever. And that's not over-egging the pudding. And, you know, that's the buzz I get out of it. That's the passion. And in terms of the first book, Exposing the Truth: Whistleblowing Uncovered, you know, if that book— and it has, I know, because we've had the testimonials— but, you know, if that book has resonated with people, or one person, that's actually inspired them and motivated them to speak up about wrongdoing in the workplace because they've read something that I've written down and scribbled and made a few notes on a few years ago, that's the buzz I get out of it. You know, that's You know, the money obviously helps in terms of, you know, making life a bit easier, but the buzz you get out of it, someone going, thank you very much, you've got off your bottom, you've done something about it, and I've actually believed in it. And I suppose, you know, without getting too excited about life and stuff, that is what drives me. And, you know, like I say, right at the beginning as well, we've got a social enterprise called Worldie Wise, and it's— we've got 78 volunteers who go into schools across Kent and a bit further afield now who give their Worldie Wise Advice to young people about their world of work and careers and life, and if it can inspire, and it has and it will, and it, you know, it's doing it at the present, in the present, sorry, in terms of, you know, one person gets some inspiration at age 16 to 18 about their life, and in 30, 40 years when, you know, I'm maybe not around anymore, um, and they've gone, you know what, that was a really good thing that that person came into my school on something called Zoom that might not be around in 40 years' time. And they inspired me to become whatever I've done or helped me in this part of my life, which I never thought I would do when I was listening to them when I was in my class or in an assembly because I wasn't academically able or had a disability or had something going on at home or whatever it might be. And that person said, you know, you can make it, you can do what you want in life with all the right characteristics like resilience and leadership and communication and all these sort of things. That's what— that's the buzz I get out of it, genuinely. And it will do forever, I think, because that's That's why I do it. That's why I joined the police, I suppose, because I want— I remember sitting in my interview in the police and they said, why do you want to join the police? Well, it's wrong that, you know, an old lady crosses the road and gets mugged and her handbag gets nicked by someone who runs off with it. And if I could help catch that person, regardless of what the courts do or the reasons why this person does it, but if I could actually help stop that person or prevent that person from reoffending, then that's the job done for me. And I suppose that's the essence of who I am in it, you know, without sounding like the new messiah, because I'm certainly not, but that's what drives me and that's what I get the buzz out of. And, um, it's not about the money, generally isn't. I get the buzz out of— if I could get paid for creating nice opportunities in life and platforms for which people can speak out, and I do obviously, but you know, that's not the main driving force. The main driving force is doing good. And that sounds cheesy, Jags, and it shouldn't be, and it doesn't mean to come across like that, but that's what— that's why I get out of bed. And, and also as well, I mean, we had our first Worldie Wise convention a few months ago in September, and we had 25 people come who hadn't met each other before, what we call our ambassadors. And I said, there's a big difference in life between doers and sayers. And, you know, I'm very much hopefully seen as a doer rather than just a say. People talk a good job and you've written books and, you know, people say, oh, everyone's got a book inside them, but everyone, you know, wants to start a business. Well, there's a big difference between talking about it and doing it. And hopefully, you know, in our world of iTrust and World Device, we're actually doing something about it. And if it all went crazy wrong and 2 years' time and at least you've given it a go. And we're making great strides and we're very pleased with the way it's going. But that's what it's about for me. It's like, you know, I said, right, I'm going to take a gap year after I left school. Well, I did a gap year, right, I'm going to go to poly. No, a lot of people make choices in life, but there's lots of choices people make that they might not want to make necessarily. Let's go to the easy route. I mean, setting up business, as you well know, it's not easy. There's lots of pitfalls and bumps in the road, and I've had quite a few so far. And you, but you know, that's part of the journey. And when I went backpacking, you know, that didn't all pan out like I thought it might do. Who knows? I didn't know how it was going to pan out, to be honest. I fell over in a pub in Sydney and smashed my front tooth in the pub called the Henry IX and ran out of money and ended up in Hong Kong and worked as a cocktail barman in Hong Kong and met my wife. She was backpacking with her friends. And here we are, so 22, 23 years later, having been married with two fantastic children. And that's life, isn't it? And that's the journey we're on, just trying to make a difference. And in our own little world, we're not going to change the world, but if we can make a little little pinprick in terms of, you know, a difference on this planet. That's what it's about for me. Yeah. And what you have done— and what I'll say, we're just about to close on the interview now. That hour's gone so quickly when we're talking and then continuing going on. I will bring you back later next year to see how things are going. But I have to leave the viewer with this. When you do— and the listeners, you know, when you go on to www.womensradiostation.com and you'll find out how to find, uh, Nick, you know, um, and iTrust and Google, etc. But this gentleman, for his legacy, he said, you know, when he goes off and leaves this planet to be somewhere, Nick Inge's legacy is about being truthful, honest, and mental health. Because this app He's saving more people than he actually realizes with what he's created here because of saving lives, putting, you know, that person so they can speak out. They don't go home with this mental pressure. They work in an environment, in an office, that where the— your boss is proud to be part of this iTrust. And so for myself, is to any employer out there: are you going to be part of iTrust? Do you want your employees to see you're honest and truthful? Do you believe in not just putting the plaster on the finger but keeping the plaster on the whole of your workforce so that you do have credibility? And that's the main thing. But most Mental health is real. When you're operating a company that, you know, is putting mental health pressure on your staff, you are not going to get the best out of your employee. So be truthful, be honest, look at iTrust. And if you need any more information, Nick Inge, which you can get on Google, or check this out on on www.womensradiostation.com. And it is not sales— this is about truth, honesty. This is about a gentleman who's been honest and truthful all his life, so he's hardly going to be building an app that is out there just for money. And because he's a man of integrity, and you can't buy integrity, but you can buy manners and credibility and class. And with his honesty, his legacy will always be remembered for this iTrust because he saves lives. He frees the mind. He allows people to talk about it by being using that. So for that, thank you very much, Nick, and thank you to all the listeners for the show. Thank you and goodbye.