Free Your Mind With LKJ – Sasha Cole, John Thornhill, Mojo Dementia App

Hello and welcome to this week's edition of Free Your Mind, Let's Talk About It with LKJ. As the listeners have been aware, I have been highlighting dementia, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc. Over these last few weeks, I had a wonderful guest called Terry Scaife who came on. He was a mental health nurse that explained from her side of 30 years dealing with dementia and patients with Alzheimer's, etc. And for all the listeners that listen to that show, had the in-depth insight from Terry and about how carers and families needed the support. I have some wonderful pleasure today to introduce John Thornhill and Sasha Cole, directors of Mojo. This is a new app that has been created to help, um, and is designed to help families. They will both go into depth regarding this. John Thornhill, Director of Mojo, as well as Sasha, is a Director of Mojo. John has been at the forefront of e-business and online development since the late '90s. Founding numerous startups and corporate venturing initiatives. He has featured regularly in the mainstream media and spoken at thought leadership forums including the Royal Institute for International Affairs and the British Retail Consortium. In 2008, John changed direction and founded Pincios I may have said that wrong, but John will correct me on that later in the show when we bring him in. The award-winning London tapas bar chain struck by the comparative lack of technology in the hospitality sector and increasing impact of smartphones. He spent several years developing Centralise, Centraliseportal.com, a next-generation management system for hospitality and retail, which launched in 2016. In 2019, John met Sasha Cole whilst on holiday in Ibiza. Sasha spoke of her philosophy and practical approach to dementia, and specifically the lack of support for the wider family network who so often bear the burden of primary care. John realized that his existing technology could be modified to recreate a revolutionary 330 degrees dementia support system connecting all those involved in the care of a loved one through an initiative portal and app. From here, the concept of Mojo, MojoDementia.org, began. As John says, most of us have seen the effect of dementia on the patient But Mojo is for the family, for those whose daily lives are dramatically altered by the practical responsibility and emotional impact of a loved one's dementia diagnosis. Until now, there has been little help available for them. We believe in their philosophy and ongoing support and technology will find and make that difficult journey less challenging and more joyful for everyone involved. Sasha Cole, as Director of Mojo Dementia, is, um, somebody that has been involved in care for the last 15 years, working initially in a care home for people living with dementia. Her career progress within a range of healthcare environments before moving into training and assessment roles. Through her experiences, Sasha became concerned by the lack of support for the families who, unlike with other illnesses, are often obliged to bear the burden of daily care with almost no external support or guidance. As Sasha puts it, Having worked in dementia-related fields for over 10 years, I am acutely aware of the lack of support for patients' families. Our aim is to share the load, reduce the stress, and uncover more crucial opportunities for moments of joy. In this context, what could be more important? It is about the ongoing flow. Is it easier for us to think that a person who has dementia than for your loved one to think like a person who hasn't? Although our realities may not always align, the emotional response is what counts. After all, isn't laughter the best medicine? In August 2019, when Sasha met John, who recognized the potential to apply Sasha's practical or philosophical approach to a wider community using technology as a platform. This progressed to creating Mojo with many features. Mojo supports the families of those with dementia throughout their journey. It is my absolute pleasure to bring in, first of all, John Thornhill, director of Mojo. Hello, John, and welcome to Free Your Mind with LKJ. Let's talk about it. Hi, thank you very much for having us on. It's my pleasure. Could I ask you, John, just to express to the listener, you know, you're obviously— this is, you know, a bio on yourself that I have expressed to the listener. Can you just give us your adaptation of what you're doing with the launch, etc., and working with Sasha, um, so that the listeners can understand a little bit more. Of course. Um, well, Sasha and I met, uh, just over 2 years ago, a chance meeting on holiday, and we were having a conversation about what we did work-wise. And Sasha, I was immediately struck by her— she was heavily involved in care and she had a particular passion for trying to help the families of those living with dementia to cope with this awful diagnosis, and it really resonated with me. I have family who have sadly passed away from dementia. Sasha does as well. In fact, everybody in the, in the business that is Mojo, every member of the team has had some direct experience with the disease. But as I say, Sasha was talking to me about how she felt there could be a lot more help for the families, whether that's the primary carer, a partner, or a son or daughter, or even, you know, trying to explain the changes that dementia brings. And so understanding this philosophy, essentially Mojo, which is the name of the app, is short for Moments of Joy. And Sasha, what really struck me was she was talking about people seeing the funny side. And at first I found that quite difficult to process, I suppose. Is there such a thing as a funny side to dementia, which is, you know, a degenerative long-term disease that affects all of society on a very profound level? But then I think you start to realize, well, if that's the case, what choice do we have? Do we want to approach this with a positive perspective, trying to make the best of the situation, or are we going to resign ourselves to a purely negative experience for everybody involved. And so Mojo is two things. It's a philosophy around dementia care and how it should be applied, and Sasha will talk more about that. Indeed, when she explained to me her views, I sort of tested them, if you like, through some other friends who have family members with dementia, and immediately, well, very quickly, they came back really gushing about how positively about the impact that this approach has. So firstly, it's this philosophy about how we approach the disease. But secondly, it's an app, an app that is designed to give practical support in about 12 or 13 different ways to every member of the family. So yeah, and I'm sure we'll expand on that shortly, but in essence, that's where we are. Thank you, John. That is, I'm sure as the listeners are listening to that, is very powerful from where this began, you know, this, you know, with Sasha's experience working in the field. And by her working in the field and her knowledge and meeting yourself to create something that is Moments of Joy. Moments of Joy now through this app that any listeners or people who are listening that know somebody that is dealing with the disease of dementia, there is help there. And thankfully And it's come from somebody that Sasha Cole has worked in this field. And as you said yourself, and anybody that works at MoJA have all lost somebody or dealt with anybody that has had dementia. And through this has enabled everybody to sit together, hear Sasha's views, to say, I've been there, I've seen it. Like the nurse, Terri Scaife, that worked on the field, as I call it, you know, working, you know, on those wards, trying to deal with how to express support when the person goes home. That Sasha is so passionate about this, and her passion through not just doing a daily role, going home when she's worked in this care home, etc., that she went on to learn and get her own mind to progress with training, assessment roles, etc. But her voice, her voice needed to be heard, and it's absolutely wonderful when you have somebody with that much passion to say about that. So it is my pleasure now, if I may, to ask Sasha to join in and, you know, give us her, um, update on who she is, why she did this, and then we, you know, can be going through on that side. So hello Sasha, welcome to Free Your Mind, Let's Talk About It with LKJ. Hello, thank you for having us today. No, absolute pleasure. And as I said, you know, dementia is something that's very strong. You know, we will be talking about families, etc., like that, which, you know, just, just, you know, explain yourself to the listeners that, you know, your time working, you know, in the field, expressing that, how when you worked with families and, you know, this passion to actually approach John, you know, and bring this together, if you may. Yeah, sure. I mean, John covered quite a lot to begin with, but one of the main things that I did find as my time in the health and sector continued. When I was carrying out the assessing roles and going to 4 or 5 different care homes a day, I was observing the families and just seeing how lost they looked. And within the care sector, the carers are very busy, so to speak, which is no fault of their own. So they don't really have the time to sit down with the families and support them and tell them what's happened that week. So what I found was they were really missing out on these crucial opportunities to create these moments of joy. And that really struck me as to that little bit of knowledge could really, you know, maintain this relationship for a lot longer and then for them to feel a lot more supported. But there was nothing really out there. So this is why we created Mojo, to give them the tools and for them to understand and monitor these behaviours and work as a family, as a support network, really. So that's— but I mean, this is through many, many years, and then also watching both of my nans being diagnosed and watching the symptoms and the impact it had on my family, that really did push me to, to see what we could do together with the technology and then the knowledge of the care industry. Yes, completely, because you have seen firsthand, you know, as the director, one of the directors of Moja, you have seen that Can you explain to the listeners your journey, if I may ask, if it's not too personal? You know, when you're looking at moments of joy, is your path and your journey you had with your nan, you know, you know, because obviously that was, you know, that led a lot of passion into you wanting to do this and for other people and other families. Because for that family that's sitting at home now that is listening to you, and John, to think we've got this app. But for yourself, with your nan, can you just explain that, you know, can we talk about a week in the life of somebody with dementia from your insight, if that's possible? Sure. I mean, if we go back to the nan situation, if I look back now, the symptoms that we observed, they were a lot longer in the— she was more advanced, a lot more advanced than what we thought at the time. So not recognising her husband, for example, that goes a little bit further down the line in the stages, whereas this was our first initial, what we thought, symptom of something that was wrong. And then obviously she got progressively worse, and my granddad supported her the whole time and didn't want her to go into a care home. So throughout the journey, that was hard to see. And then my mum became a carer, so again, that was very family network involvement there. But in the day of the life, it is very challenging in the sense of the, you know, the behaviours that they carry out. And being close to somebody makes it more difficult, whereas, you know, being at— having the caring background, if I wanted to go and see somebody with dementia, you're kind of disconnected, but you're there to do a job, but you obviously care. But when it's family, it does make it more difficult, and you do try and bring them back to the here and now because you want them to remember you, you want them to 'be here with you.' That's not to be encouraged because that ultimately does create a barrier, and it's about meeting them where they are. And this is really vital to validate how they feel and for them to feel comforted in that moment, because during this, they truly believe what, you know, what they're saying. So, like, these illusions they may be having, and if you are to challenge them on this, this becomes you know, a real problem and can be aggressive behaviour. So it's all about having that patience, understanding, and listening to what they're saying. Uh, not necessarily the— it's more about the emotions, not necessarily the words. Um, and it's just having that, like I say, the patience and the knowledge to understand, um, and support them through this, because it is hard for the whole family, but it Like John said earlier, we have two choices here. We can, you know, make the most of it and create a better journey, or we can challenge these areas that we're not sure on, which ultimately does create a disconnection in the relationship. Yes, yeah, can I join in there in the conversation? I think it's important to bear in mind that I think the terrible thing about dementia is that typically it's a 7 or 8 year journey, and unlike most other terminal illnesses, it's the wider— it's the family and wider family that has to bear the burden of care. And so I think what we're trying to do— quite often, as Sasha was describing there, you will find one primary carer in the form of a family member, usually an elderly husband or wife. And I think there's a real opportunity this current moment in society with social media and also, you know, quite an active younger generation that wants to get involved in a caring way that we may not have had in previous decades. And so combining the sort of positive commitment with the technological enablement and then this philosophy that it doesn't have to be always a negative experience or every moment doesn't have to be negative, I think it's bringing those three things together into hopefully just a more contained approach to this very real experience that every single person who is, let's say, 50 or below today will have direct experience of, because 1 in 3 people by 2050 will die from dementia. So in terms of how we develop that as a philosophy, I think Bear in mind that the 7 years have very different stages, and so in the early stages it's very much about practical advice, knowing what's coming down the line and encouraging— quite often the loved one will be the person encouraging the other family members to get involved here and say, look, you know, things are going to change, we need to be ready for this. And the Mojo app, for example, gives a bunch of professionally produced checklists, really practical things to need to know as things change over the years. But I think as you get Further down the line, and also again Sasha can expand on this one, but we have a really interesting way of approaching care reporting, which is we've developed sort of 20 dementia, sort of key dementia indicators that are understood in the healthcare sector and put them into the app in a sort of one-click reporting system so that if you're spending time with your loved one, it's really easy to log changes, whether they're sleeping less well than they were last week or, you know, whether their memory has deteriorated or not. And of course you then get to the later stages where actually interaction with your loved one becomes much more visceral, I suppose. It's— I think the difficulty that people face, especially younger people, children especially, as they're dealing, facing somebody in this situation, is normal communication doesn't apply. But if we can sort of, I guess, draw a comparison with a baby, you can have a meaningful, positive interaction with a baby without them necessarily recognizing who you are or having shared memories. You can still provoke either a positive or negative reaction. And the philosophy of Mojo is to look at different ways across all those stages. The first stage is practical advice. To the later stages where it really is trying to hold on to those last few memories, but seeing that inevitable journey can be approached with help and the right attitude in a much more positive way. Wow. Well, I must say, for myself, John, listening to that in-depth explanation for the people outside, this is absolutely a tool that I will see that really is opening up a world for people where you are connecting, putting that in when you're seeing those changes, as you said, throughout, and being able to log this. Is the app, may I ask, easy to use? You know, for some people who are not— if you're looking at your grandma who's 70, 75, saying, oh, how do I do that? Is it Is it easy to use when they download the app, etc.? Is there someone in the family who could assist to follow? So yeah, it is very easy to use. We've taken the time to simplify the app for that reason exactly, and we're aware that obviously the older generation aren't as tech savvy. However, we have found that during lockdown that they have gone that way a bit more for the communication side, but all the features are very easy to use. It's very self-explanatory, and we do have a support on the app as well, which, you know, if they did come across any issues or any problems, that we'd be able to support them through that as well. Marvellous, marvellous. So, you know, if we go look back, obviously because this new technology now, which is amazing, this is going to open up a completely different world for families. If we look back at your time, as we were saying, in the care homes, how it happened then, when you said the carers that were on duty are busy, etc., but for the families going on there, so could you just explain a little bit different how they would have coped then to now, how you believe will change with this app, and people before, when, you know, we need to talk about in the care homes, the families in the care homes, if I may, if we can express on that side and how it will work in there as well. Yeah, okay, so at the moment we are fully focused on the families. So with that in mind, I mean, phase 2 would be going out into the care homes and making it a little bit more adaptable, and in that way that would be more towards like having a manual, a manual that they never had. So that would then talk them through what's happened with the behaviours, any triggers, any, you know, activities that they've really disliked liked, all of those key things that, you know, will save time and any, um, any potential, um, conflict, so to speak. But I mean, the reason why we've done this is to reduce the stress. So for example, when somebody gets diagnosed, you've got this, you know, a whole array of medication, um, which can be hard to keep track of. So we've created the medication alerts so that we, you know, we can reduce that stress. So we get the, um, the reminders, you know, the, the, the missing, um, medications and also the prescription log, and when they're due to be renewed. Things like this, you know, that again reduces the stress immediately. We also touched on care notes a little bit earlier, and that again has the key dementia indicators. So a family wouldn't usually think to log this vital information. Might have a challenging day, but that for them is the norm. However, in the care industry, we— it's a legal requirement for us to do these care documents, and there is a reason for that. Also because of, you know, it it does build out a journey and it can show triggers and behaviours which can be reduced just by having that knowledge. So again, this really does log exactly what's happened and encourages them to see differences in— so this could be to do with medication effects, side effects, for example, and then this could potentially help the GPs. So we're also reaching out to professionals as well, and it makes the family's life easier having that knowledge and that understanding. Throughout. So do you want me to touch on the other features that we have? Yes, is the app different for everybody, or is it just one app that, you know, because everybody's different, aren't they, with their stages of dementia? Is it different for different people? John, do you want to take this one? Sure, I think, okay, the best way that I can explain this to you is to effectively think of it as your loved one having almost a Facebook profile, but it is dedicated specifically to members of the family or carers who are invited to join. And on there you will have— we've got, as I say, about a dozen different features. So if your loved one is in the early stages, then they may well, as Sasha just mentioned, medication alerts. And quite simply, that is every time a medication medication is due, then every— so every member of the family who wants to has the app, and when a medication is due, the loved one or their primary carer will be reminded and they'll confirm that it's been taken. If for some reason that confirmation isn't received, then the rest of the family will be aware because they'll see on the app that the medication hasn't been taken, which can either be— well, it can be an implication of a number of things, but it's very good information. Then if we— as I mentioned earlier, we have the checklists which are Probably something that early stages, perfectly likely that the loved one would engage in that themselves, because you've got things there like funeral decisions and power of attorney and stuff that needs to be an open conversation with somebody who is capable of understanding the nature of the decisions that are being made. Now, as we get sort of further down the line, stages 3 and 4, give you another example, we have a feature called Memory Box. And the idea there is that family members can post photographs of the loved one and themselves, you know, throughout time, okay, going back, you know, literally going back through the old family scrapbooks, or a meal that you just had yesterday, as seems to be the popular, popular thing at the moment. But by putting all of these things into the memory box, firstly, it's a way of sharing information in real time with your loved one if they choose to look at it, whether you're there or not. And of course, particularly during COVID that has been especially important. But from a treatment or a management point of view. What it also does, if you imagine this, this memory box has, let's say, 20 different pictures of Sasha aged from 2 years old to late 20s-ish as she is now. The point is that one of the symptoms of dementia is often that you lose facial recognition of family members, and by having a photograph or several photographs of the same person on the app in your pocket, going through time. When you're spending time with Granny and you're trying to say who you are or who this is, you're able to show her photos of that person evolving to the person that they're seeing in front of them now. And so it helps them to recognize, okay, right, I remember little Sasha, okay, that's— and it's sort of piecing things together. And that particular thing we think will really engage with younger users who are very Instagram savvy and enjoy sharing, and it's really a good way to encourage communication on that level. Then we have sort of more features that are aimed specifically not at the loved one, which is care and support guidance, ways of everything from information about the different medication and side effects to creating a dementia-friendly home to how do you tell Grandpa he can't drive anymore. And these are the very real and very diverse challenges that families face on a daily basis. And as you mentioned, alluded to earlier, as part of the launch of MOJO, we're doing an event next week where we've teamed up with a legendary cartoonist, a guy called Tony Husband, who I met by pure chance about 5 years ago, and we've kept our contact details. And it's— there's a series of cartoons, and they all have a message about dementia, but also with a slightly humorous take on it. And so This is all part of, I guess, the cartoons are a reflection of some of the key issues that are faced, and in many cases it is the family that needs to work out how to deal with it, not the patient. And so speaking in a language that they can engage with, or better still, processes that they can engage with, is the first step in just joining together. Well, a family should be joined together, and therefore so should the care journey. Yes, completely. Right, absolutely. And I think I threw a lot of information at you there. Sorry about that. No, no, no. And actually, because for the listener that is listening to, they need to hear this information and hearing from yourselves that have created that. Like you were saying about the medication, it's a big factor because it does affect— I mean, I have a dear friend whose mother is actually going through dementia at the moment. And you know, when she comes home, she cries and trying to— and she had to make the decision to put her mother into a home. She could not cope with trying to do that, the emotional, and when her mother would get aggressive or pinch her or hurt her with doing it and say, you need to take your medication, you need to do this. And with her not having that support, So, as she was saying, she had a huge difficult task of dealing with medication, trying to get prescription. They would do the prescription wrong. Was this right? Was that right? Trying to put everything into its place as it was, and had she taken it? Then would go home and say, "I don't know if she's taken it." Then, you know, when her father would call and say, "Mum's not well," you know, "so we've got to get the doctor out." And, you know, as you were saying, because she hadn't taken her medication, this had side effects, ended up being in hospital, etc. So that even just that one specific part of that app that alerts when it's taken, it's confirmed that it's taken, is a lifeline. You know, when you're in hospital, you know, the lady used to come around with the, you know, the nurse came around with your trolley and they'd sign the card. 'You know, but you didn't know at home if they take that or what's on it.' So it's having control, it's still having the control and allowing the family and the person suffering with dementia control still. As you were saying, that would then alert that it hadn't— someone say, 'Hey, what's happening here?' You know, we're going in on that side. That's quite right. Sorry. With that app, that's what I'm trying to get my understanding back, and I'm sure the listeners too, well, they're probably chatting as families at home saying, have you heard this radio show? Have you heard these guys saying about this app? Is that this app actually works? It's taken into consideration the whole journey. It's looked at stage 1 to stage 7, you know, it's, it's looking at every aspect of somebody who has dementia till when it, you know, for the 7 years as you've expressed, that there are important questions to be asked, Sasha and John. You know, people, if you are that family member, how do you go, how do you express that as a group, as a family, if you've got a brother or sister, etc.? Who is A, the primary carer? How are we going to do this? How— we've got a jigsaw here. And we have to complete that jigsaw. What I believe that Mojo Dementia app does is the full picture. It connects every piece of that jigsaw of dementia, and then you get your full picture. And in that picture is the support and going on, you know, as you're going through there. Like when we, you know, we have to talk difficult decisions And one of the things that you said you've got on there is the app that is, you know, when you've got to talk about power of attorney, you know, funerals, etc. And in my conversation with Terri Scaife, that was something that came up on that interview I did with her and said, you know, as a mental health nurse dealing on the ward, who had power of attorney, etc., how they were going to do this. And etc. is important. And I believe, and it's something that I haven't done— I've arranged all my funeral, I have everything done, but I totally forgot about the power of attorney. So whilst you're in your right mind and you're in stage 1 or 2, having that power of attorney, you're setting your wishes down exactly what you want, doesn't cause confusion later on. So by having that app, you can gently bring in and talk about that so that everything's in there so you know. It's a difficult journey for any family to go. When you see your peer, your parent, or, you know, going through it and reverting and going back, am I quite right in saying? Because there is 1 in 3 of us by 2025 that they say is going to suffer with this, you know. It doesn't matter if you are a bank manager, a care worker, a shop assistant, One in three of us will suffer with this. It's why, as you know, a great friend of mine is Baroness Susan Greenfield, and her research into the brain— well, she's researched into Alzheimer's dementia and Parkinson's— you know, her study of the brain and of the conscious mind everything, you know, empowers her to try and look for treatments, etc., on there. And on that same platform from her, I have to put Mojo up with the Baroness on that platform for what you've done, her research and her treatment. But what you guys have created is a miracle, and that's all I can say. Because when my friend knows that this is coming, she can now check they can check on everything with the photographs sitting there that you can just pull up. You haven't— you've forgotten the box that you've left at home with the photographs— going to sit with mum or dad or aunt or, you know, brother, sister, etc., and look at those pictures because so they do remember you. Because, you know, in my journalism and what I do in there, you know, we came across the report of a gentleman that every every Friday would don his suit on and his tie and would kneel down and propose to his wife every day because she would forget. But every week he did that out of routine, and her face and her joy, they would open up. And what you've created on that app is moments of joy. You've captured that in that app to be able to, you know, put your photographs in, like you were saying, like like the young Sasha Colman would like, that, "Oh, I remember that," and you're going back on that journey with them. I mean, outstanding, guys, absolutely outstanding. Thank you, that's lovely to hear. Just on the subject of, obviously, lots of the terms of how do you turn technology into moments of joy, and I think you've nailed it, exactly what we're hoping to achieve. And you mentioned time traveling a moment ago, which is the term that we use where— I say time shifting is the is the term that the sector uses for dementia patients when they believe they're in some other year. And one of the— I guess fun may be the wrong term— but one of the more entertaining elements, we have this thing called Time Machine. And so when you set the app up, you put in basic details about the individual family members. So where your loved one lived between certain years, what school they went to between certain years, what university, what jobs. It doesn't take very long. It's only very small amounts of information. And then that combined with all the photos that are put up in Memory Box. If you're with your loved one and they time shift and you get the impression that they're back in 1975, in the Time Machine part of the app, you put in 1975 and it will bring up the top 10 songs for that year, the top 10 films for that year, news headlines, and also how old was your loved one at that time, where did they live, what were they doing for work, how old were the rest of the family. So it makes it much easier to get into a position of comfort with them and join them on that journey almost by playing those songs and showing photographs of that time. It helps the carer to join, as Sasha beautifully puts it, you know, to join— well, sorry, Sasha, how do you beautifully put it? Well, to join them on their journey really, and that's what we were talking about earlier, is just promoting meeting them where they are. Exactly that, that's what I meant. Carry on, please. But it's, I think that's, but as we said earlier, and it's normal and it's natural for the families to try and bring them back to here and try and make them recognize, but that isn't going to work unfortunately. And it doesn't matter which kind of role you're playing, you could be, you know, an old friend called Nancy, but as long as you're having that connection, I think that's the most paramount thing about it. And just creating those moments of joy and the memories that you will gain from this. And that's where the, you know, the funny side could come into it, you know, not laughing at them, but we're being with them and being present and maybe role-playing, so to speak, but you're still maintaining that connection. And that's what we're all about, is creating those moments of joy with the knowledge and with the features and to support them throughout the journey. Exactly. Because, like, may I just, um, because what you were saying was capturing laughter. Laughter. We all need laughter. We need this positivity than the negativity and going through. Because it is difficult, because obviously, you know, when you're looking, and you were saying, in between 1975 to 1990, etc., those different areas that bring it in, and keeping the truth there, because it is still a journey that you've gone through, and losing— because, you know, obviously with dementia, it's, you know, the neurons are damaged, you know, and this is what's happening, so the signals are not getting across that they normally do, and they're losing where they're damaged, etc., going through and recapture that to, you know, hold on to these memories. And, you know, with the laughter, like you said, is not laughing at them, you're laughing with them, you're laughing as a whole family together and expressing that laughter. When, you know, you first had your prom, you know, and your dress and going out there, that grandma saw, and something funny may have happened there. We were laughing. Do you remember, Granny, when this happened? Oh yes, my dear. And then perhaps, you know, 2 hours later, that's forgotten. When you're going, when you said, oh, you know, when, say, your brother came, Granny, did you remember that? And they didn't have that, like, what's that, my dear? What's that? But having that, you are redoing the role play, as the gentleman is doing when he's proposing every week. And doing the, you know, the role play and keeping memories alive. So you are keeping your own family together in this awful time and remembering everything and also gaining strength for your own mental health. Because you know, for these families that are doing it, they're suffering with their own mental health issues with this because, you know, to see that loved one hurts, it causes pain. But what you're actually does, Jo, with Moments of Joy is you're showing the world that yes, there's pain, but you know, and that pain hurts, but you're showing through Moments of Joy with the Mojo dementia app that love is real. And the reason you know love is real, because you've got to feel that pain, understand pain. So by going into that app and opening up when you're looking at, yes, it's painful, yes, it hurts, But that love shines and that laughter shines through with moments of joy with the Mojo dementia for that section. You know, that's how I perceive it. Do you think I'm on the right level for the listeners to go, or can you express either of you, whoever wants to join into that, so we express a little bit more on that joy, keeping this journey for people, you know, in the family, so you're strong because it's gonna hurt when you walk in and Granny doesn't remember you. Sash? Sorry? Okay, I'll take that. Yeah, I think you've put it absolutely beautifully, and actually hearing somebody else speak about it is quite— I'm finding this quite moving in a way, because we spend our lives thinking every element of this, of Mojo as an app, and you know, we've stared at screens 16 hours a day for 2 years, and it's been an incredibly laborious and quite painful at times process, because any, any technical development is. I mean, that's, that's the thing. And so you get to the point— it's not that you can't see the wood for the trees, but the feeling that we had when we started it, the reason why we are doing this, it's really very rewarding to hear somebody articulate beautifully, but more importantly feel the kind of the truth and the reasons why we entered into this in the first place. And the fact that it translates that well, or at least it has with you, is fantastically rewarding for us to hear. And I think that in terms of the listeners and the different messages for them, the point about Mojo is that you're right, that this is such a massive burden on any family, generally speaking, particularly one person. And what we're really trying to do here is to spread that burden, because if it becomes more entertaining and interesting for grandchildren to get involved in the care, then they will, you know, posting stuff to Granny or whatever. But I think the other thing that people who are caring for a loved one at this stage who are listening will understand very much is that there are so many different stages, and one person will be hearing this and thinking, yeah, I can, I can use that 'bit' next week when I see Grandpa or Dad. But somebody else will be thinking, well, try sitting, you know, walk a mile in my shoes and find the moments of joy. And it's very important that we recognize that. And of course, also it's important in terms of the early stages that the disease by its nature, although it's progressive, it's not linear. And so it's sort of fragmented. And so you have to— your loved one will have their freedom, will still be there in many ways, probably for the first 3 or 4 stages. You cannot take away somebody's independence, and you wouldn't want to. And so it's getting this balance where the Mojo app is helpful to both the loved one in those early stages and the family across the board throughout. But it's that kind of balance about at what point at what points does it become about the loved one and what points about the family. And as you say, I'm thrilled the way that you just summed it up, because if that's how you've understood it, then it feels like we've done a reasonable job. Definitely. Thank you for that. Yeah, I really enjoyed listening to that as well, because like you said, John, it has— we spent 2 years on this, and it's great to see To hear beautifully described, and you've seen the benefits of it as well immediately, so that is beautiful. So thank you for that. One of the things that it reminded me of when I was just talking then about the different stages, a lot of the funny things happen actually, you know, during those early stages, and the loved one can laugh along too because they're aware that they are coming in and out of different elements, if you like. And in fact, at the event that we're having next week, which The Moments of Joy cartoons, we're also premiering a short film with Sir Tony Robinson, and it's called Joe's Journey, and it's about an elderly guy, and he goes out for a walk, and he's disorientated. So he, when he leaves the house, he's going to see his mum because he thinks he's a youngster, but the guy's in his probably late 70s. Nobody's going to stop him leaving his home. He just at that moment is in a different place. And he goes along this journey and meets different people, and eventually the outcome is there. But what shines through, on his journey he meets 2 or 3 individuals, and people can tell that this older chap is somewhat confused. And there's an— people, at least awareness of dementia is increasing to an extent now that actually, you know, people do want to help. And one of the things we have, which I think is a very practical solution, is we have everybody, every loved one has a Mojo badge, well, a couple of badges actually. And if they go out for a walk, they can wear the badge. And if they do become confused or lost, any member of society, anybody who wants to help in a shop or anything like that, they can go onto the website and enter the unique number that's on the badge, and that will immediately send out a message to the family network. Giving details of how to contact whoever's helping them, where the location of your loved one is. And that's just a very practical solution that hopefully deals with the reality that it's different stages. And some people, you know, some people are living with the stage of, okay, Granny's gone out for the day, we don't know when she's going to come back. And that is a terrifying prospect, as terrifying perhaps as taking your young grandson to see her and she doesn't recognize him. You know, it's all about, as you said, the different stages and trying to do what we can for all of the family at those different points. Well, just expressing for that part, was that bad? I don't know if you actually realize even what you've just created on that part. As a news reporter, live news reporter, as well as being a radio host, I'm called out many times with our camera crews when somebody— you're having a Sunday lunch, for instance, and everybody's there. You think that Grandpa or Granny have gone to the toilet and they've wandered out. Then what happens in another role, they're searching desperately, where have they gone? Everywhere, where have they gone? And they've walked along the road, and it gets to the point that these people are cold, they haven't got a jacket on or anything. We'll come across it. So for us in news reporters and emergency with the police, etc., you know, it's highlighted very, very quickly, news and media to Ghana. So helicopters are up, etc., if they're not found, searches, you know, we use all forms of social media to get there. But for everybody and every listener that is listening to this, please tell a friend, please tell your neighbor, if anybody is wearing a Mojo badge, it's not a charity badge just for this this has a unique identification number. That will help save a life, because if you are the person that walks past this person in the street, think, oh, like, they do look disoriented, you could give that— that could save hours of news reporters, search teams, families going out. Because this is real, this does happen. Granny can walk out if they're at a certain stage. And then the horror, as if, like you were saying, of a child going Please, I must say to every listener, tell somebody, tell somebody. If you see somebody in that interaction, if you're that shopkeeper, wherever, you can save a life by doing that. Because if it was cold or even hot, they could walk out and disorientated, walking to the road. That hand, that invisible hand of support, you could help everybody. And by creating that even for the emergency services, they could link that in much quicker. It's so important. And very, very important factor of this app that you have created is the protection, the security, you know, the, the whole, um, shield and armor that you are putting around, you have encased around that loved one of support. And that badge is support. And wow, well done guys on that as well. Thank you. We have tried to think of every element throughout the journey too, and that's it. We just want to give the families peace of mind and create moments of joy, and that's what we're about, definitely. Exactly. And by doing that, like we were saying, creating moments of joy that you do still want to have an afternoon with Granny, making it as normal as possible. You know, to do that. And there is fear that comes with this. There are different things that happen and, you know, which is going on there. Like, for instance, if you've just got Granny and Grandad at home and using, you know, switch between Granny and Grandad, you know, it's no preference to it will happen more to Granny or to Grandpa because they will deal with their dementia in different ways at different you know, and their journey through this. But like the neighbour, if your grandfather wants to go out and just have 10 minutes respite, knowing that the neighbour can see this badge, know that you've gone off, say, "Oh, he's just popped out, we're going to do this," or I can sit with them and perhaps grandpa's getting a bit agitated or anything like that, they can also contact you, come back, or contact the family. It is a support. This app is a massive connection of invisible hands that generate— so each piece of this jigsaw puzzle that connects this whole picture, but this picture is of somebody, somebody's life, somebody who needs independence, are entitled to have that, are entitled to feel this love, and connection, and as a family, a whole connection, support, helping doctors, help that the medication's been taken, helping emergency services, helping loved ones, helping neighbours, helping that same person there. This app is, as I said earlier, a miracle, a miracle that has been needed for so long for these sufferers that are on that, and for me I'm overwhelmed, actually overwhelmed, and in what you guys have created, because as John was saying, you spent 2 years with your team trying to tell a computer what to do, trying to tell that computer to feel emotion. How do I tell that computer to send out laughter? How do I get it, that computer, to understand passion? How do I get that computer to understand the person's inner core, believing and support. This computer then comes out and becomes real. And what it does— oh my goodness, I can't thank enough Sasha for your meeting with John in Ibiza, and you guys and your team. And I'm sure every listener and people, you know, Dame Judi Dench, Baroness, um, Greenfield, uh, Russ Kane, our radio station, everybody around, and that launch, and for the cartoons, everything that you have done, and the timing, and to make sure this is correct, as you said, you're overwhelmed to hear this back. You two guys and your team, you have created a platform, a platform on a nice open road where you can be free, you can walk, you can connect, you can talk freely in your group if you've got to make these difficult decisions as a family, that you can open up, you can speak about this because you have the technology there on the app. So if your brother was saying, "Oh, I don't think Granny's that far," have a look because the app controls and shows everything because the app is telling you. Granny has got this little bit further. It's telling you, it's a whole picture, and you can go into each section and then discuss it in your own times and help and go. I'm overwhelmed, guys, absolutely overwhelmed. Thank you so much, that is amazing to listen. Thank you. Honestly, I felt really moved by hearing that back. I really appreciate that, so thank you. You should feel moved because You have created moments of joy, and in your legacy— we all have a legacy in life that we want to leave. You know, when we have to go, we don't know what's going to happen to ourselves. Either you, John, or I will end up with dementia. There's 3 of us here, you know. One of us in this, that conversation's gone in, that we know, having that call, is that expression of that app. You have given joy to everybody that's in that family, that when the carer is busy, they've got to come in, they're dressing Grandma, they're not doing it. You have put the connection on because there is worries with that as well. When you're saying about security, when somebody knocks on the door and says, "Oh, I'll come and get your paper," is there a financial part to that, may I ask? Yeah. For instance, you know, like for the funding, one of the things that we do find is abuse. So in the form of abuse, abuse factors on the abuse, meaning that, you know, somebody— you, you know, as a news reporter, I come across some of this, which is really heartbreaking. And say Granny said, could the next— somebody said, well, I'll bring you a newspaper, and they hand over £20, the newspaper's £10. Sometimes people do it a couple of times, and they are vulnerable, they are vulnerable, you know, and coming in and they've handed over more. Is there anything in that app so that family can see what's happening in the spending, the financial or is that— in that sense, actually, that's a really good idea. Yeah, that is. I mean, yeah, I mean, we haven't got any— so we've got the Support Centre, we've got various topics in there. Financial abuse, we will be touching on like a podcast and things like that, but it's not in there at the moment, which we can also add. But so, I mean, that is something definitely to be look out for, but One of the things that I think, you know, if it's possible with what you have created, is this bit that is there a part in there and you've got power of attorney, etc., for the family. The family know there's this whole banking system that you could put into the bank account. You know, you can go online. So if Granny has had to pay something, okay, you know immediately so they're not being abused, or, you know, it happens. Yeah, I think that's Right, that's a really good idea actually, because it would allow basically linking the app to the— to a banking app, and you wouldn't need full access. You could simply have an alert when certain transactions, unexpected repeated transactions or whatever happened. So thanks, that's a really good idea. We'll build it into the— yeah, hang on, Granny's had £200 gone out. You as a family, you go, why have you taken that? And for receipts, you know, you can bring in that that part to it that will help. So they're, you know, to help their vulnerability, so they're not keeping lots of cash at home. They don't need to. There's a way that you can do this that links you to— this is what Granny needs to do financially this way. But you can do it, you know, if you fast the payments on their bank and etc. Just a suggestion, guys, because you've created a miracle here. The only thing that we didn't touch base on was how do we prevent them being abused physically you know, in the care, you put everything in to touch on everything. It was just that little bit I wondered what had happened on there. But we are coming to a close. That's a great idea. It goes so quickly, doesn't it? So if I can ask John, we've got 2 and a half minutes before the show shuts down and I close it down. So if I can just give you, you know, this last, say, 45 seconds to yourself, just to give your message out for that this listener? Well, I think, I think you've already articulated it so well, but in the end, the message that I would give is if you have a loved one who is living with dementia at any stage, just go on to our website, it's mojodementia.org, see what the features are, understand, because if nothing else, it will give you guidance to the questions that you need to ask yourselves. There's a free trial available for the app as well, and so, you know, see if it works for you. And we just hope— it's a new launch, so as we said, we're 2 years in. We hope that it gets the reception that it's having so far with yourself. And yeah, that's— thanks for having us on. Yeah, and Sasha? Thank you. I just wanted to add one last thing as well, because we have focused solely on the families here, but we do have a sign-up for people that early diagnosis, so that they can go on and monitor, you know, their own medication and maintain their independence as well. So I just wanted to add that bit on as well. So it's for, you know, the people that have recently been diagnosed that maybe feel a bit daunted by it all, as well as the family for the later stages. So it does have that aspect as well. But yeah, so thank you so much for having us on. We just want to remove the stigma and just find a more positive way to navigate through this journey together, really. So yeah, thank you so much. No, it's been great because, you know, dementia is something we need to talk about. It's going to take me a good couple of hours to wind down from this wonderful app. And my, my voice, if I can, will excel across to everybody. And as I will say again, where we freed our mind, let's talk about it. This app is freeing the mind, it's freeing the mind, it's helping the mind. You know, the people behind it have been powerful injection of to create this. It's just overwhelming. Remember, you know, go on there, go and have a look what John has said, you know, or if you need to contact them at any time, you know, you know, there is a support network on there. There is a free trial. But most— and again, one of the other messages, remember that badge, remember that unique. If you see Mojo, there isn't, you know, Mojo in this is the moments of joy. You know, which you're creating. And, um, you know, I thank you both for coming on. I'm looking forward to coming to the launch. It'd be my pleasure. But for now, thank you for joining me on Free Your Mind. Let's talk about it with El KJ. Goodbye.