Future Classic Women Awards – Christina Cooper

Hello and welcome to future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio station, the program where we search for the most amazing female artists on the classical panorama. Today we have a very special guest and it's Christina Cooper. She's a performance coach and a mentor and in particular, she's the president of the new W.E. wPTA Performance Psychology organization. That is a new organization transforming the musician's health, mental health. Welcome, Cristina. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. Tell us about the. Shall I call it WPTA or the World Piano Teachers Association Performance of Psychology? It's quite a mouthful, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it's a long. It's quite a mouthful. But we are an association of the World Piano Teachers association, an independent chapter association, actually. You are trained. You trained the Royal Academy of Music and the Juilliard as a double bass player, right? That's right, yeah. That is an incredible career. We had Chichin Wonog, who a couple of years ago, I'm aware, yes. Yeah, yeah. And I think that will be such a special, special instrument, isn't it? It really is. It really is. It's one of those kind of neglected instruments, although it's definitely becoming more popular now, I think. But it's certainly an unusual instrument, isn't it still, I guess. And you're also a pianist? I am also a pianist, yeah. So what came first, the double bass or the piano? Good question. Around about age 7, I was given this tiny, tiny little keyboard for Christmas. And you cannot imagine the excitement that I had because I just was. I had the urge to play something musical. Wonderful. And so there I was presented with this keyboard and a Teach it Yourself book, and I went absolutely crazy with it. Wow. And my parents at the time couldn't afford lessons, so I very much just got to work, taught myself how to read music. I. And, you know, each year the keyboard got slightly bigger as I started to progress, improve. Yeah. And, yeah, it wasn't until age 10 that somebody came into our primary school offering bass lessons. Oh, really? And they happened to be subsidised by the county council, so we were able to afford them, which meant that then I started having lessons. And then, of course, then it just took off from there and I overtook the piano. Oh, wow, that's an incredible story. I mean, it's a beautiful story. Proper Christmas story, if you like. I mean, it's something that we know. There is so many children out there that wish they could learn the instrument. There is others that are not students, including mine. I can Tell you that they're so lucky to have a teacher like me and maybe you. And they don't profit. I mean, they come back to me when they're at university and say, oh, I wish I was more serious students now. I miss the piano, for example, and others like you instead, that they had to teach themselves. But as you can see, I mean, if there is a will, there is a. Oh, yes. I mean, it really was a passion because we didn't really have music playing around in the house. My parents weren't musical. No one in our family was musical as such. You know, they had an appreciation for music, but no one was playing it and even listening to it, to be honest. So actually, classical music. You were not exposed to classical music? Oh, very much. I remember hearing it in assembly at school, yeah. Oh, really? And my dad had a very small collection of vinyls. And of those vinyls, I just remember picking out of the. Out of the selection Beethoven sonatas. And it was in particular, moonlight and Pathetique. And I just was. I would play them over and over again and just be transfixed by them at a very young age. I don't know what it was about them. There was something in the drama. Oh, yeah. In the. They seemed slightly strange to me as well. Yeah. In some sort of appealing way. Yeah. Well, it's. It's something that we're gonna listen to later. Actually. The Pathetic Sonata is one of my favorite too, you know, and there is nothing. You know, I've read somewhere that actually classical music is everywhere, particularly in the children cartoons, for example, the. All the big music for Cinderella, Frozen, whatever, is not pop music, is all a kind of symphon with violin. I have friends, actually, from the Los Angeles Opera that they've just recorded the last track of the Frozen 2 movies. So somehow you don't realize you're exposed to classical music. But classical music is all around, isn't it? That's right. Yeah. And I think that's great because, you know, that some people could say, well, young. Young people can't appreciate, or they don't know how to appreciate or access classical music. But is that really true? I don't think so. I don't think so. Absolutely. Well, how did you then decide to start this new organization, the wpta Performance Psychology? Yes. Well, that is a very good question and quite a long story, but I'll try and put it in a nutshell. No, we can talk later. I mean, we can just introduce it. So it happened organically. I had to give up playing the bass unfortunately, due to a chronic pain issue. And also I had actually burnt out mentally and physically. And that led me on a path of exploring the mind and how the mind works, because I'd always had a particular fascination with that. And then shortly after speaking at the World Piano Conference earlier this year, I was approached to set up an independent association within this particular niche that I had started to working. Okay, so you, you had some studies in psychology or. I trained as a cognitive hypnotherapist and a performance coach. Perfect. So what is specifically a performance coach? Performance coach. Okay, so it's quite a broad term, but we're, you know, we're looking at working with, in my case, working with musicians and helping them to overcome psychological challenges in order to perform at their very best and in fact above what they believe they're capable of as well. Let's say. When you were a student, did you ever have some kind of training on that? No, no, nothing, Nothing. So you were kind of, you know, taught just how to perform at your very best. And now whatever else is around, the mental impact of performing on stage in front of the audience, the stress and the pressure. No, unfortunately I know things are changing and there are, you know, certain places are looking at this, but certainly when I was studying music, there was no, there was nothing really around, you know, how to even how to deal with performance anxiety, how to deal with the stresses of going out there and having, and making a career of being a musician. Well, let's talk some more later. First we listened to some Chopin nocturne number four in F major. We chose this nocturne tune because there is a double phase to it. So it starts with a fantastic, uplifting ethereal first part theme and then suddenly there is the turmoil that you would have internally in whatever moment of your life. Sam. Sa. Sam. Sa. Sam. Welcome to Women's radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on women's radio station. Hello and welcome to future classic women awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on women's radio station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at women's radio station supporting women's well being and we're talking all things autism women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon. I'm a birth doula and mum of three and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show From Tummy to Mummy. Here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything fertility, pregnancy, birth and baby related right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. My name is Ingrid Marsh and I host the Radical Wellbeing show supporting women's well being. On my show I bring you ordinary women like me and you who are sharing their unique stories. Women who have refused to be defined by their pains to be silenced by stigma or crushed by stereotypes and who are taking back their power. And together our mission is a simple one and that's to inspire you to kick away the roadblocks too. To don your wings and be the person that you were born to be. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover and mental health advocate and you can listen to my show get booked here at Women's Radio Station and daily at 5am and 5pm throughout my shows we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chapter authors, publishers and book enthusiasts, all with a scene and aim of supporting women's emotional well being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch at presenters@womensradiostation.com join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Do you want to be a doula? Would you like to support families through pregnancy, birth and the postnatal period? Do you have qualities of compassion, listening, caring and empowering? At Nurturing Birth we offer approved doula training courses across the UK which are facilitated by an award winning doula. Here you will learn more about the support you can offer, explore the doula role and think about how to set up your business. No need for previous qualifications. Find out more@nurturingbirth.co.uk. You're listening to Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter @WomensRadio station. That's WomensRadiostn or Facebook Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to future classic Women awards on Women's Radio Station. The program where we search for the most amazing new female artist on the classical Panorama. Our guest today is Christina Cooper, performance coach and the founder of the WPTA Performance Psychology. This new organization transforming musicians mental health. Actually you just launched the website and is an organization where any musician can sign up. Exactly. Yeah. So it's for all classical musicians, primarily classical, but we are also of course open to non classical musicians. Jazz as well, of course, but even pop and rock. I'm sure they go through even more if you like. Absolutely. So yes, we just launched the website and the membership platform actually is going to be central activity of the organization. What would be part of the membership? What would be the advantage of being a member of this association? So the membership is. The idea is that it's an ongoing platform for musicians, particularly aimed at students and young professionals just starting out. And the idea is they can sign up and you know, instantly download lots of free resources in key areas. And we're looking at different areas, a broad range of areas including stress, anxiety, performance anxiety, dealing with pain and injury. Because that's something that, you know, it's. I'm not sure how much provision there is out there for it already, but it can be a huge part of any musicians career and also developmental side of things. So we're not just about support, we're about developing musicians to, you know, into entrepreneurs. I saw that. That's very interesting. Yeah. And so yes, a part of what we're offering is free resources. There'll be free monthly webinars and also a members forum which will be anonymous, which I think is important as well. So musicians can go there and you know, connect with each other, connect with professionals as well who can, they can discuss issues they're having with. We're also going to be running professional workshops and programs for musicians to sign up for again around those different key areas. Absolutely. How much if I can ask you, it's. I mean it comes from your personal experience, if you like. And so I think you developed these organization thinking about what you needed at the time and you had to source yourself. Yeah, absolutely. So when I burnt out as a musician, I was experiencing an immense amount of pain, physical pain. And that had a huge psychological effect on me. One of the common one is like a tendonitis for example, when you play, I remember a lot of a friend of mine, they had in all the instruments really experience tendonite. That is when you're too tense, you use too much the tendons, they get used up and then you can't perform. And if that's your only job, you can't do anything else. That's a problem. Yes, exactly. So you're really feeling lost, isn't it? Exactly. So yes. I think I didn't know where to turn. I had many, many different investigations with that. But I came to the conclusion that Actually, it would be best for me to stop piano. You know, obviously that was always a huge passion of mine, but very much in the background, I used this opportunity to then focus on piano. Not wanting to make money from it, but to have that as my performing outlet and to be able to enjoy it from a different perspective of not having to make money from it. What do you mean not making money out of piano in the sense of performing. So you're not performing? I perform, but I'm not performing to make money. It's a very different feeling for me. Absolutely. Well, it's kind of a freedom, if you like. Because when there is the pressure of having a big cachet, for example, I can tell you as a soloist, when you go out there, there is so much, you know, and people pay a ticket to come to watch you and you want to be the best. Absolutely fail in that moment. And you can imagine the depression on bigger name that they have bigger cache. And we're talking about very big one. And I remember for a while there was someone without making names who was cancelling constantly his concert last minute because he just couldn't make it. And that's when the Horowitz is one of the famous person as well. He retired from his performing career because he had break down on stage fright. And you get this big hole of memories. It doesn't have to be necessarily physical pain, but could be mental pain. That's right. That's right. And that's precisely what I want us to be able to help musicians with. Because, you know, again, something like performance anxiety, it's still very much a taboo. Absolutely. You wouldn't want to admit to your colleagues. I have this issue because, you know, when we're looking at orchestras, for example, particularly as a freelancer, when you are playing in an orchestra, it's like your. Your colleagues are waiting for you to mess up. Oh, really? Because there's so much competition for the spaces. Wow. For the work. Okay. I never thought about that. So much high pressure that actually you can feel that people are waiting for you to. The energy is definitely not positive. Not positive energy. No, no. I'm not saying it's always like that, of course. But in your experience, or at least it's something you felt like maybe there is others that they don't feel that, or maybe they don't mean it. But you know, not necessarily. But the reality is there is a huge lack of work. So this of course creates a huge strain on musicians, mental health. And that together with the state of the economy, the state of politics. Everything else plays into this and plays into musicians fears about primarily how do I make a living out of this? Because you know, they're not doing it for their own enjoyment purely. And many lose that enjoyment. That was their number one passion in life because they had to start making money to provide for a family to forget about buying a house. Oh yeah, yeah. And particularly for musicians that live in London and many do, it's incredibly hard to make enough money. And that's where again the entrepreneurial side of it comes in. It's so important for musicians to be able to have lots and lots of different things that they can do. Of course some musicians will be very successful as a soloist alone. But to be honest, even then they're likely to be doing some teaching as well. They're likely to be doing other bits and pieces and have many different skills. And I think not only is that vital, but it creates a very, very rounded musician then. Absolutely. Well, the next composer we're going to listen is someone that is very famous for his mental breakdown and that's Robert Schumann. Did you get an inspiration by looking at his story? For example, apartheid didn't end up very well but he willingly self admitted into a mental asylum and then he died there a few years later. But you know, have you been searching other famous composers that still made a name even if they had a mental issue? Gosh, so many. And actually, you know, when I had to narrow it down today for the four composers that we're looking at that we're hearing, it was quite tricky to narrow it down because when you're looking across the board there were so many composers that struggled. Well, let's listen now to Schumann from the carnival. There is actually his two alter ego that are Eusebius the meaty one and Florestan the very passionate one that. Sa. Welcome to the women's radio station Supporting women's well being. Women's radio station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to see celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website womensradiostation.com for more information. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. Many women want to be smarter with their cash but just don't know where to start. @empowerandenrich.org you will find a host of options to help you take charge of your finances and learn how to put your money to work for you in an easy, affordable way. 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We're live today with Christina Cooper, performance coach and mentor, president of the WPTA Performance Psychology. Cristina we were talking about this incredible necessity, if you like need of talk about mental health for music because people don't, particularly the audience, they only see the appearance of it. They might get it through the music that we're playing. Most probably. For example, I was playing the other day, I was practicing at home and my daughter, she's five, she had a little Friend coming over for a playdate. And I had to perform to practice because I have a concert this week at actually the Schumann House. That is the. In Bonn is the mental asylum where Schumann, we were talking before went and died. So it's gonna be a special concert. But I was playing one of the. Actually the soundtrack of this radio play that is the third romance, Apost 21 by Clara Schumann. And the little girl, she first I performed Schumann list the wigmon. That is the piece that Schumann dedicated for the wedding to his wife. It wedding present. So that's full of love. And the girls, they just started singing. They were so in love with it. You know, although it's quite passionate with Liszt. But, you know, that came out to them. And I love playing to my daughter because she's so little and so innocent. So really comes out the real meaning of the music. And when I play the Third Romance, that is the soundtrack of this program. Her friends came to me and she said, can you please stop? This scares me. It was too dramatic for her. She never heard something. So. So you see, so the audience can get something out of the music. But in reality, when they see the performer, maybe they see the beautiful dress, they see the passion, but they don't see all the mental. How do you say, when you're fragile. Absolutely. No, I don't think they do see that. And it's an incredible pressure for musicians, particularly soloists, but obviously not just soloists. Now you told me in the orchestra too, exactly. To go out there and whatever's going on in their life also. Yeah. Go and perform and you know, you could have just lost someone very close to you and have to step onto the stage and you want to do a good job. So, you know, how can we hold ourselves together during those times, but also how can we channel that into the music in some way that's safe for us and obviously not wanting to lose control, but for it to be a safe channel for those emotions that we might be experiencing. And I think that's when we, you know, you're talking about that heart to heart connection. It's the heart to heart connection between performer and listener. And ultimately actually that's right at the heart of why I'm doing what I am doing now. I want and I believe that music is ultimately about connection. Yeah. It's about connecting one heart with another and experiencing being human and experiencing the more spiritual nature of our existence as well. And I think that as you were mentioning, you know, with children, they. They experience that there's so much in the Music that's so playful, they're just wrapped by it. And that's something that I want. I want to help musicians get to the point where actually they. They're free from the baggage of insecurity, because that's primarily what stops that heart to heart connection. When we are out of connection, we. We lose that ability to, you know, we're in our heads, basically. We're insecure. We're worrying about what people are thinking of us. You know, one of, I think the next composer. Not the next composer. The very first composer we listened to Chopin, you know, he hated public performance. He hated it. And he feared. Insecure. He feared judgment. That made him feel very, very insecure. He felt intimidated by the audience. So successful, he was. So imagine if you're not successful. Exactly. So this is the thing that will be multiplied. Yeah. Yes. So going back to what you were saying, you know, audiences don't see what's going on underneath the show and the, you know, of the black clothes and everything and the concert hall and the glossy piano or whatever it might be. But actually, when we connect in that space of a concert hall or wherever it is, even if it's something very informal, there is that knowing this is. I'm a human being, this is another human being. We're sharing our humanness. Yeah, exactly. That's something actually often has been told to me that somehow we look like superhero, superhuman when we are on stage and we're doing these virtuoso pieces. Liszt is one example of the transcendental. The transcendental studies, they're so difficult that you transcend to the sky and you are not human anymore, isn't it? Absolutely. It's that. It is a feeling of not being human, actually. But actually there is still that part. Exactly. And that's what's so exciting about live performance. It's the human element. If there wasn't that human element, then what. How would it feel? You know, we wouldn't have that feeling of what if they fell off that, you know, that arpeggio or. Oh, yeah. And that's happened. Actually, there is one question I always ask in the last part of the interview is a funny moment or embarrassing moment. And there is plenty of. To show the human side of the performance, you know, the backstage of it. Absolutely. On stage. On stage. Many, many of those. And I, you know, I have many of those too. And actually the interesting thing is, and in speaking to other musicians about this, this particular subject, the moment of making that mistake or having that, that slip, quite often, you know, that's the connection part, because it's the audience seeing, okay, this person isn't superhuman. I am closer to them than I thought before because there can be that feeling of putting them up on a pedestal that is actually somehow as it is because we normally play up on a stage. So we are seen up on a pedestal, isn't it? Well, the next piece we're going to listen now is Beethoven, the one that inspired you to become a musician. That is the pathetic sonata, the first movement. Sam. Sa. Sam. It. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to future Classic Women awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being. And we're talking all things autism women. The possibility opportunities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon. I'm a birth doula and mum of three and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show From Tummy to Mummy here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything fertility, pregnancy, birth and baby related right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. My name is Ingrid Marsh and I host the radical well being show supporting women's well being. On my show, I bring you ordinary women like me and you, who are sharing their unique stories. Women who have refused to be defined by their pains, to be silenced by stigma or crushed by stereotypes and who are taking back their power. And together our mission is a simple one. And that's to inspire you to kick away the roadblocks too. To don your wings and be the person that you were born to be. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover and mental health advocate. And you can listen to my show get booked here at Women's Radio station daily at 5am and 5pm throughout my shows, we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chapter authors, publishers and book enthusiasts, all with a theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch@presentersomensradiostation.com join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Do you want to be a doula. Would you like to support families through pregnancy, birth and the postnatal period? Do you have quality of compassion, listening, caring and empowering at Nurturing Birth? We offer approved doula training courses across the UK which are facilitated by an award winning doula. Here you will learn more about the support you can offer, explore the doula role and think about how to set up your business. No need for previous qualifications. Find out more@nurturingbirth.co.uk. You're listening to Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter @WomensRadio station. That's WomensRadio stn or Facebook. Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programmes. Welcome back to future Classic Women Awards on Women's Radio Station. Our guest today is Christina Cooper, performance coach and mentor, president of the WPTA World Piano Teacher Association Performance Psychology, a new organization transforming musicians mental health. Cristina, we've been talking about this fantastic project but actually I know you have another big one in the pipes. I do, I do. So since January I've been writing a book and it's interesting because the book keeps changing and it started off as a book around performance anxiety and helping kind of self help book with that. And it's now I've changed titles three times so we'll see how long this title sticks. Okay. And I've cut the book in half from what I last wrote on it and rewrote that whole section. Oh, wow. So it's, it really is an organic process and I think that it's important actually because, you know, life is an evolution anyway. So I wanted something that, that goes with me on the journey that I'm on and reflects what's important to me right now. That's a fantastic project. What's going to be in the book? So yes, inside the book it's going to be looking. I wanted to write it in a way which is me showing how I see performance and what performance means and being a musician from the sense of what we were talking about earlier, that heart to heart connection that actually at the very, very heart of musical performance is this very, very spiritual element. And I've had a very spiritual journey recently which has really inspired me to write in this way. And it's going to be looking at different areas of where musicians struggle with. So looking at, you know, confidence and fear of failure. Fear of, you know, not being good enough. I think that's something we all. We all have. Well, that's something somehow something that the teacher always tell you as well, to make you to improve in a way. But when you've been told all your life, your early life, I mean, before you become. I remember my teachers, they kept telling me I had a fantastic teacher in Italy who was very mean, and it was part of his way of, you know, telling you things. So when he said, this is good, it meant he was fantastic. And then I came here to study at Royal Academy of Music, and my teacher was Ian Fontaine, my first teacher, and he kept telling me, wow, this is wonderful. Wow, this is fantastic. It's like, what? That's not. Okay, I'm here to learn. You have to tell me. It's rubbish. So that's how I was growing up. Did you have the same experience? No, I must admit, I didn't really. I had lovely teachers. I really did. I really did. I'm very lucky. Okay. I'm very lucky. All right, well, in the book, you're going to talk about experience, not only of yourself, but also testimonial of. Yeah. Experience of clients who I've. Who I've worked with. And one in particular, actually, who was a. Was a. An interesting case and actually not unlike many others that I've worked with, an opera singer. And he came to me with a fear of his voice closing up. Oh, my gosh. And you can imagine, you know, that's. That's probably the worst nightmare for any singer. And he clearly knew he was good enough. He knew that actually where he wanted to be was or where he could get to was somewhere big. And he had that confidence. But beneath it all, actually, what we discovered was there was this feeling that actually he wasn't good enough on a very deep level. And the way our brains work is, you know, we are. We create our reality 100% through, you know, ourselves. We create that in our heads. And so everything that we are experiencing is entirely created by us. So actually, any experiences that we're having in our very early life are going to have a big impact. If it had an impact, then emotionally, then it's going to have an impact. And that could be something as simple as being told to get up and like I was being told to stand up and sing in front of the class and not wanting to. I see. And that can create an effect and have a big impact, which then creates a butterfly effect over the years. I got you. Is there any. There gonna be Any funny moment we were talking before. You had many embarrassing moments. That's very important too. You know, I think it's important to lighten the mood a bit, so. Oh, gosh. One. One comes to mind. I mean, there are many, really, but one comes to mind of we were playing, I think it was Mahler 5. Absolutely love Mahler 5. And this was at Symphony hall, and I was right on the edge of the stage. And at this particular time, I didn't have a bow quiver, which bass players tend to have. It's a little leather quiver that you can attach to the bottom of the bass so you can throw your bow in and out of it when you're doing pizzicato. I see. And so the other way that you could do that was to actually stick your bow in between the bridge. Oh, wow. Okay. And it's not. Not recommended. But if you've got nothing else to do, it's the quickest thing if you actually need to put your bow down. So I had done this. Or in the mouth like pirate. You could put it in the mouth like a pirate. The pirate double beast. Exactly, exactly. Okay. So. And I'd done this, and the next thing, I caught it, and the bow went flying off the edge of the stage straight into the audience. Oh, my gosh. And an audience member had to get up and pass it back to me. Oh, that was very kind. Yes, I know. Otherwise I would have been bolus. Well, the next piece we're gonna listen is Rachmaninoff playing his own piano concerto. The number two is actually very special, which was this one, because it's the one that he composed soon after a huge breakdown that made him to stop composing and performing for a while. And after a long work with this psychoanalyst, he came out with this beautiful concerto that he actually dedicated to the psychoanalysis. Dr. Let's listen to. Sa. Sam. Ram. Oh, my gosh. And this was Rachmaninoff playing his own Piano Concerto Number two. It's too long, but it's so beautiful. I recommend everybody to go and find this version. If you have any question that you would like to ask to our guest a nomination for our future Classic Women awards, please email presentersmensradiostation.com or tweet us. Womensradiostn. Big thanks to our guest, Christina Cooper, for the great chat, the beautiful music that we've chosen together today. Thank you so much for having me. 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