Get Booked – Alice Capelle

I'm Hazel Butterfield, and you're listening to Get Booked, the women's and men's radio station. Today on the show, we will be talking to the author Alice Cappelle about her book Collapsed Feminism: The Online Battle for Feminism's Future, released on November 14th of this year. Now, Collapsed Feminism outlines the nuance of navigating the online environment as a feminist and the obstacles to progress which exist there. Kapelle expertly analyzes a wide range of online communities and subcultures, revealing how an unprecedented backlash against women is being orchestrated online. Now, there is so much to think about in this book, and the level of in-depth qualitative information to exemplify such topics is quite frankly remarkable. Alice is straight-talking, informed, passionate, and offers some hugely poignant introspective and thought-provoking societal issues around what feminism is, conflicting opinions of such, and the problematic repercussions of subjectivity, and issues surrounding those who are threatened by what their version of feminism means for them. There is so much to talk about. Alice, welcome to Get Booked. How are you? I'm good, thank you. What introduction. Thank you very much. I'm super happy to be here and to be able to chat about the, the book and the topics covering the covered in the book with you? Well, do you know what, I've had this, um, it's interesting because I quite often read my books out in cafes because if I'm at home I've got the dog, the kids, the washing machine, the dishwasher, and so it's interesting the looks you get because it's not like a flowery book, it's just bang, bright pink writing, collapse feminism. Yes. And the interesting thing is, is that it's quite succinct, it gets straight to the point, but you keep on having to stop to kind of Google this particular person or this particular issue, and you refer to so many particular situations that you end up going down these little rabbit holes constantly. I've loved it. Yeah, I know, I know. I really wanted to, you know, like, the goal with this book, obviously, like, this is mostly focused on internet culture, social media, so obviously there are a lot of terms that people who aren't necessarily like all the time on social media will not necessarily understand or grasp. So the idea with the book was also to be a sort of introduction on what happens on social media, what are the names of this or that internet culture, how do we call this or that phenomenon. And so obviously there was a— I was very much aware that people would have to have at least a phone or something on the side because like obviously I tried to define as much as I can all those terms, etc. But, you know, it's something new. And I'm still happy to do that because obviously someone has to do it. And I feel like we need to talk or to use or to take social media seriously more and more because this is the place where people of all generations— but in the book, I guess I focus more on young generations— this is where they forge their opinions, their identities. So it is really important that we understand that language, that we understand what is happening on social media in those communities. So yeah. It's quite an interesting position for me to be in at the moment because I've got teenage children, uh, they're boys and they're raised by, um, I mean, I guess a feminist mother as well. Um, I use the term loosely because there are so many different connotations to the word, but you know, with their girlfriends as well who are like, oh Hazel, what do you think about this? And then you have the fact that I'm 41, so a lot of my friends are kind of in between 30 and 60, and the scope, the difference of understanding and acceptability and differing opinions, I mean, it's bonkers, it's absolutely bonkers. No, no, it's interesting because like for me, like I'm 25, so obviously I'm more on the Gen Z side, let's say, so it was interesting to speak also from my perspective and to share, you know, obviously like this work is grounded in theory, feminist theory, but also, you know, like sociology, all those things, like these are things that are important to me, you know, making sure that this is grounded in academic work, research. But at the same time, like, this is my perspective, this is my outlook on what feminism is, what it looks like on social media. And obviously on social media, a lot of creators are, you know, Gen Z, Millennials. So that is also reflected in our opinions, in our way we forge the movement. And it's so interesting too, because I've been in conversation with older women, or, you know, like, and it's always interesting to, for example, just the fact that as young people we say we grew up with social media or we grew up with influencers. And in the book I talk about a lot of, you know, that girl, for example, who has her life figured out. So like all those influencers that, yeah, we grew up with, and this is something quite new, you know. So how does that impact us? And I guess like this is, yeah, this is the perspective from someone who's young, and I guess this is quite valuable as well because this is where we're heading, you know, like this is what young people want for feminism and it doesn't have to be opposed to what previous generations fought for with Saturday. So like taking that legacy with us but also like pushing it further. And I feel like, you know, like I don't know if you watched the Barbie movie, but the sort of intergenerational aspect of the movie was, I find it quite interesting, you know, because like the mother was more like, yeah, girl power, you gotta develop your career. And it is true that that's what was pushed for women like a few decades ago. You've got to be financially independent, you have the power, you can challenge men's power, etc. But now for us, like, things have changed, you know, and that's a big topic in the book. It's like, what happens when work is no longer synonymous with liberation? So for a lot of young women, we wonder if work, the workplace, is the place where we can find liberation. And we start to challenge those things, etc. But the issue is that it's challenged across the— everybody's challenging this idea that work equals liberation. The problem is that those who are— how to say that— but the people who are taking up this narrative or taking advantage of those concerns, of those doubts, are mostly conservatives. They are inserting their own view of what then feminism ought to be, or, hey, if you don't like it now, if you don't like work, then you can go back to more traditional ways of living. So it is really important as young people, as feminists, that we also provide a different perspective. What do we want the movement to look like? What do we want to bring to women? So yeah, I guess all those concerns that obviously I addressed in the book. Well, the thing is, we are constantly evolving, and what you do in Collapse Feminism and on all your YouTube videos, it's about opening discussions because there's not one particular way that is right. We all have our different opinions, our different wants from life. And I mean, we are going to talk a little bit about choice feminism in a bit as well, but it's interesting that you brought up Barbie because I absolutely fantastic— I thought it was fantastic. I loved it. And I loved the fact that, you know, it was very girl power, but then Ken was going, but I'm Ken off too, you know, what about me? Where's my position? It all seems to be based around you. So when they get a glimpse of power, they run with it. And this is the issue with the manosphere and incels and whatnot, where all of a sudden they go, wait a minute, we feel like we're having everything taken away, and the only way to do this is to strong-arm and to kind of blame it on testosterone and get what we want and gain— regain control. And this is, this is the issue. We need to find a more common ground and to understand the arguments and to understand the issues to forge a better way forward. No, totally. And you know, like, I titled the book Collapse Feminism precisely for that, because when you look at the way people talk, what we theorize, what we write about, it's all about this idea of loss. We're losing something. So you see it very clearly in the manosphere because it's, we're losing power as men. We used to be providers, we used to do this and that, and now women want to be career women, they don't need us anymore. So there's this feeling of loss. I wanted to politicize it. I wanted to connect it to the feeling of loss that Trump also capitalized on, Hey, you're losing power, especially white working-class people. You're losing power. See, now people are only talking about identity. You know, always this idea of loss, loss, loss that is too often pushed by the powerful. And so my goal with this book was to ditch this sort of framework, to turn it upside down and to look at what people who cannot afford to think about loss, to think about destitution, what do those people want to do? What sort of world do they want to create? So yeah, and that's kind of scary because the deeper I looked into it, the deeper I realized that this framework of collapse was also very present in more progressive spheres. So you could see people who claim to be progressive, claim to be inclusive, etc., sort of retreating to these more conservative, let's say, ways of thinking. And by conservative, I don't necessarily mean in a political sense, but more, for example, I give the example of the the cottagecore aesthetic, which is this ideal imagery of like, you know, like living in a cottage in the countryside with goats running around and you wearing like long flower dresses, etc. It's very interesting because like this aesthetic was sort of appropriated by conservatives, yes, to draw back to sort of this nostalgia of traditional living, but also by the queer community. This idea of, oh yeah, like you know, society is tough, discrimination is tough, life is tough, which is, you know, very frankly true. But therefore we're going to create our own little communities in the countryside. We're going to seclude ourselves from the rest of the world. And this is a conservative way of thinking. This is a collapsed way of thinking because it's like, I don't care if everything is going wrong. I don't care if we're doomed as a society. At least I'll have my peace. At least I'll be able to be happy, me and maybe my partner or something like that. But the goal is to stop thinking like that. We really need to think in terms of community first. So that's why in the book I talk about friendships, I talk about the personal is political. So always drawing back to politics and how political movements, political ideas can bring us together. Well, there's a lot of issues around, um, shame with feminism, especially choice feminism as well, because there's women out there that say, right, okay, I've— I— all I see on social media is how they're, you know, these women are CEOs and they're smashing the families out the park, or they're choosing not to have children because they're deciding to, to, you know, completely smash the work market and, and have everything. Um, and there's some women going, 'But I just— I've always just wanted to be a mum,' which is their choice. And that— and some people aren't interested in the career, or they've chosen other priorities, or they don't actually have that choice, and they're doing the best that they can do to lead a life that's as fulfilling to them as it can be. And there's lots of different things as to what makes a woman successful in her own right. You— and the fact that Sometimes there are stay-at-home women that are shamed into thinking that they're just adhering to a patriarchal vision when actually sometimes it's just what they want to do and it brings them joy. And this is the issue that people need to know that they can actually make these decisions and there are so many options out there. You know what frustrates me a lot with the way this sort of this course is presented online is the fact that, and I talk about that in the book, that's this idea that it's a binary. It's either you are a career woman or you are a stay-at-home and it's like, it's always framed like that. And the way we see it, because like, there is a lot of, you know, like debates and like anger around that sort of thing, you know, like, do you want to have children or do you want to focus on your career or do you want to be a stay-at-home mom? Like, gosh, the amount of backlash that there is around that, whether you choose one or the other, really. I find it so frustrating and I really wanted to take a distance from that sort of binary and look at it for what it is, a binary. And any type of binary is limiting. Why do we have to think of our lives as women only through the perspective of a career or children? Why can't we think about having an emotional life, a political life, all those things that are also forms of work, but because we live in a capitalist society, because we live in a productivist society where, you know, like making sure that women have children and that the nation reproduces itself, etc., these are concerns. So this is what is expected of women, that they work and that they have children. If they choose to have children, that's fine. If they choose just to work, that's fine, I guess. Even though when you look at it, like even in the girl boss, hyper girl boss spheres where it's all about like, yeah, women in power, yeah, girl boss, yeah, put your career first, put yourself first. The urge to have children usually comes at some point. So when you look at, for example, Sheryl Sandberg, who wrote Lean In, which for a very long time was considered as the Bible of feminism, you know, like in the book, like there is this sort of binary. It's like, yeah, focus on your career, I'm gonna give you a bunch of tips, but at some point you're going to have to have children. It's implied, it's going to happen at some point and you need to work around that. So I really, really wanted to challenge this sort of binary and show that there are other ways of being a woman or there are other ways of being just a human being, you know, and that we have to find sort of alternatives because what is happening now, to connect to what I was saying earlier, is that an increasing number of women don't feel fulfilled at work. On the internet, we saw the rise of trends like I Don't Dream of Labor, where a bunch of women were sharing the fact that they don't want to do corporate job, they don't want to do the 9 to 5, they want to do something more creative and things like that. So this sentiment is really, really growing. So what do we do about it? And if we don't escape from that sort of binary work, children sort of binary, then we leave the floor for conservative ideas to flourish because conservatives will come up and say, well, go back to what it was before, you know, let's go back to traditional living where you live, you know, as a woman you take care of your husband, you take care of your children. So that's mostly my concern, you know, I really try not to fall for the career versus stay-at-home type of thing, even though obviously I have my own opinions and I believe that the feminist movement as its core is anti-family, that the family is, you know, like, I have very big ideals, you know, and I really, really want to work on developing friendship of, some say institutionalizing friendship, you know, turning friendship into something that is more than just, you know, something we do casually without any structure. It's like, what if we gave, you know, a set of rights around friendships, a set of the same way we do with traditional relationships, you know, that we have marriage, we have all a bunch of things that can sort of institute institutionalize those things. And there was this example that really, I just find it really interesting, you know, that there was someone who wrote about friendship. He writes about friendships a lot, and he said, it was crazy to me because like, I don't get along with my family. I don't want to, I'm not very good with them. So during COVID I had the right to cross the entire country to go see my family, but I couldn't cross the street to see my friends. And you're like, for me, that says a lot. It's like, not everybody wants to, you know, like structure their lives around the family, and we have to hear that. We have to hear that, and we have to get out of those binaries, get out of those preconceptions that we're so used to and that we kind of, you know— We need to realize that we do have these choices. I mean, I don't live anywhere near my family, and I'm a strong believer that friends are the family that you choose, and I have a very strong bond with all of my friends where I live because none of us really have that many close family members nearby, and we all really support each other, and it's absolutely fantastic. But, you know, I think a lot of mental health issues are people feeling like they've been shoved in a box and that they're not allowed to sway out of that because of preconceived ideas and, and the supposed shame around it and What I do want to do is, because something flashed into my mind, something that happened a few years ago, it was about 7 or 8 years ago, but it was quite interesting because we're talking about how, you know, where women sit within the work, working market, and them trying to kind of balance having families as well. I used to work for a company where the, at one point, the guy that I used to work with, he turned around to the boss. Now, he was an administrator, um, be on about £40,000, £50,000 a year. He turned around to the boss and he said, oh, I need to go and pick my child up, she's ill at the nursery. And the boss went, well, that's your wife's job. And he turned around— and this, this is because men are trying, they're coming up against these attitudes as well that are ruining things for them— he turned around and said, but she's a GP and she's currently in surgery, and she's actually, she was actually seeing, she was treating Tony Blair that day or something ridiculous. And then, and he said, I don't care what she does, she shouldn't have had children if she didn't want to take responsibility for them. Are you saying that I've got to let you go home because your wife can't do her share? And he's like, she does do her share. She's asked me to pick up the kid once. It's our child. And so men are coming up against this all the time. It's not just a case of men not helping. They're trying, but they're having to combat these archaic, ridiculous issues as well. Oh yeah, no, no, that's insane that that turned into an argument. Like, yeah, oh yeah, it turned into a conversation, a debate, you know. No, he just got up and walked out and went, I'm gonna go and pick up my child, my child that I share with my wife. Yeah, and it's like, yes, you can. It should just be like that. So that means that we still have a lot of work to do. Obviously, like, things are changing, and it's always positive to notice this change as well. Otherwise, gosh, if we want to escape the collapse narrative, we also have to acknowledge the things that are improving. And I guess like on that aspect, we definitely have improved quite a lot. So I talk about in the book, I talk about the rise of this idea of positive masculinity, healthy masculinity, where it's like, yeah, now men can vacuum, they can take— you know, I always tell about this anecdote of whenever I come back home and go see my mom, she sometimes has the TV on and of course, like, I see the ads and everything and she always tells me, oh look Alice, now men vacuum in the ads, women are driving and men take care of the kids. And it's so funny to me because it's like, that's interesting, you know, like that means that things are changing but also that the standards around masculinity are changing as well, which means that being, you know, like a parent, a dad who takes care of his children, etc., is now deemed a good thing. Obviously not everywhere, but like if you see it in ads, that means that as a society we consider that as being a good thing. So there is a sort of value attached to being a good dad, taking care of the kids, blah, blah, blah. So things— that's a good thing. But I wanted to highlight that, that the fact that you know, the reluctance of some men to say, no, I won't change and I won't become a better father or whatever, this is the woman's job. Well, actually, there is value in being a good dad, you know, like society values that more and more. I talk in the book about like a few healthy masculinity gurus, they make a ton of money, they sell a ton of books, their podcast gets a ton of views, so like this is also becoming a profitable business, you know, being like a healthy masculinity guru, As always, like in the book, I always like to look at the more tangible options. So healthy masculinity, having better role models, normalizing those role models so that the conversation that you just mentioned does not happen anymore. But also thinking about always, I always enjoy thinking about what's the next step? What can we see beyond that? And my argument in in the book is that we need to go beyond the fact that men, you know, the fact that we attach values to masculinity or we attach values to femininity, you know, women equals caring equals kind equals emotional support and men equals provider equals this or that. Now things are changing, we're starting to attach positive values to masculinity but why do we have to attach that to a gender expression, you know, femininity, masculinity. Why do we have to go back to gender? Why can't you just be a good person, like a good human being? You know, what does it have to be connected to being a woman or being a man? And as, you know, as a woman, I grew up with a bunch of role models. Some were women, some were men. And I feel like men still struggle to, you know, look up to women, basically. And that should be— or they feel threatened by it when that does happen, Alice. I mean, I've come across this because I was brought up by some very strong women, and I've never really seen it as being— and it's always just something that's been innate within me. And so I've sometimes not understood when I've come up against quite negative opinions about me because I was, you know, my grandma, who died a couple of years ago, but she was 96 by the time when she died. She had 4 kids, she had 2 or 3 jobs at once, and I'm talking like magistrate, psychologist, things like that. This was back in the '60s, and she was the main— she was the main carer, she was the main worker, the main provider. Her husband, my granddad, he was a mechanic, so she you know, she, she probably was earning about quadruple what he was earning. And that's just— those are the women that I was brought up by. And so I've always just gone with it. If you want to do something, you go out and find a way to do it. You know, you don't ask for permission. No, that's so interesting that you mentioned that because it was definitely something quite, quite similar for me as well. My mom is very, very opinionated, but in a good way. Like, this is not— this shouldn't be a negative trait, you know, being opinionated. Women, but she also carries a lot of what I call— I mean, I don't call it, it's the concept of internalized misogyny, where she would look down on other women who would act like women, if that makes sense, who would just stay silent, not stand up, don't necessarily say what they really truly think, make sure that everybody's okay. So the women who would look very feminine, spend huge amount of time into taking care of themselves just to present well to men. She was very anti that, and she raised me and my sister against that. And I'm really grateful for it because it allowed me to grow not through the expectations around femininity or what it means to be a woman and the limitations that come with that as well. I was able to just grow as a human being without those norms. And it's so interesting to me because like I came across, I was lucky to live in an area where, you know, there was not too, you know, as a woman, like I didn't, I wasn't too discriminated against. And so I discovered sexism, I discovered gender discrimination later on in life. And I was struck by the intensity of it. I was like, why, what would you, Why? Because I'm a woman. And I still have that very often on YouTube with the videos I make. I have comments from people, men to be honest, who will say, I mean, you can tell that just the fact that I'm a woman, they won't take me seriously. And this is so devastating to me because it doesn't matter how good my argument is, it doesn't matter how deep the research was, just the fact that I'm a woman. But you have the same thing with racism. We have the same thing with all those things, like because of your identity, you will not be taken seriously. And I hate that. I really, really hate that. And maybe that's why I'm writing this book, you know, out of anger, but like it's a positive anger, you know. So yeah. Well, it comes across as passion, and I just— but again, as I said, it's opening discussions. Interestingly, what did you say that your mom said about about other women? Yeah, so she had this image of women as a group, like basically it was women's fault. It was women's fault if men didn't treat them very well, if men looked down on them, etc. And I grew up with that as well. Like, I would hate the— I was so happy when people thought I was a boy. I just wanted to be like the boys. I wanted to be around boys, I wanted to be validated by boys, I wanted to be good in math, in sports, I wanted to be everything except what is associated with womanhood. And it took me a while to just, you know, like, it took me a while to develop strong female friendships because of all those preconceptions I had about women and womanhood. But when I finally did, when I finally opened up to women and talked to them, I was like, yeah, they're just wonderful. I'm gonna sound like men who say, oh yeah, women are wonderful, you know, it's not that, you know, it's not, but kind of in a way, it's like, yeah, like, why did I have all these negative stereotypes around women? Why did I have this sort of internalized misogyny in me? That this is so wrong, you know. It just depends on who you're actually surrounding yourself with, because I mean, a term that I tend to use is misogyny sympathizers, which generally are women who try and side with men so that they don't feel like they're stepping outside of their comfort zone, and they're not being tarred with the same brush as those women that choose to do what is right for them. Um, it's, it's interesting, and I definitely do not surround myself with women like that. They— I've got a fantastic group of women that I just think are absolutely fantastic. They just go out and absolutely smash it out of the park. Yeah. We are going to so run out of time. This is ridiculous. But the thing that I want to talk about is, I mean, people are just going to have to go and buy the books. We're not going to have chance to kind of talk about the manosphere, but I think you put it so beautifully anyway in your book anyway. But what I think is interesting is managing woke ideologies versus progress that needs to be integrated, because I'm sure there's a lot of people of an older generation that will read the book and just say, that's just so much to consider that they just kind of stick their head in the sand. And there are certain things, especially from a younger generation, where older generations will just go, I just can't get on board with that. That's something that just doesn't sit well with me because it takes hard— it takes a lot of work to integrate, um, new visions and something that, you know, and to work against the crowd as well. So I think it's interesting looking at so many topics and just managing what everybody can get involved with, what everybody can try and understand and work toward. Yeah, yeah. No, my vision of just politics in general, and this book is very political, is this idea of we have to look, we have to have a vision, a long-term vision, and that is going to be idealistic, that is going to be bold, that is going to make us sound very naive, etc.. But if we don't have that, then we settle for all the frameworks and all the sort of imaginaries that already exist. And I don't want to do that. I want to keep that long-term vision. I want to think about what is the abstract. I want to have that. And so that's why sometimes, yeah, people will say, but technically, what can I do now? You know, like, this seems too far away. Like, how are we going to achieve that? This sounds impossible. But this is precisely what I— Yeah, overwhelming. But this is precisely what I mean with collapse feminism. It's we have to make sure that we continue to imagine, that we continue to think about alternatives that don't necessarily exist, that sound absolutely impossible because that's what people did in the past. Revolutionaries, idealists, they created the alternatives that we live in today. So I want to keep that view, but at the same time, like, understand that it's important to set a path towards that vision. You can't just be like, this is the vision, we're gonna get there. It's like, you know, this is very like basic self-help, you know. Like, I come from, I used to be a big self-help fan, so I still have like some of those, you know, like the sort of long-term goal, but you have to have shorter-term goals in between just to make sure that you're going the right direction. And I really, really believe in that, you know, like making sure that we have those short-term goals, that we have those things that, yeah, we can achieve that. We can achieve that in a year, in 2 years, in 3 years, And you know, the thing that I like about, for example, what I do on social media is that we, especially in my sphere, so the video essay sphere as we call it, everybody's kind of fulfilling their own role. So some people will be more pragmatic in the way they present things. They're going to be like, oh yeah, we can do this or we can do that. And actually you can do this now where you live or you can do this now in your workplace, etc. And then there are people who are more on the abstract side of it. I would say that I'm more like that, even though I still enjoy providing those short-term options. But I like the idea of a vision because for me, when you set a vision, that also means that you let people understand it the way they want to. So I'm not imposing a certain, oh, we need to do this or we need to do that. It's more, hey, this is where we should be going. What does that mean to you? What does that mean in your daily life? What does that mean in your community? And it's always like super interesting to me when I see that the ideas I present in the book or in my videos get interpreted in different ways. So for example, like you'll have like a teacher adapting a video into a game for their students, which was super fun. Then you have someone saying, oh, I created this, you know, I used this concept that you talked about and I created this in my own neighborhood. So it's like, it's great, you know. It's like, it's not because those things are abstract and they seem too far away or inachievable that you can't try to, um, yeah, like, what do they mean to you? How do you, how can you use that in your daily life, basically? Well, I think the most important thing there is, is that's giving people purpose. If you have purpose, um, it helps so much towards our mental health and feeling like we just have something that we're working towards. It's fantastic. For our mental well-being. And it doesn't matter whether you're talking about feminism, collapsing feminism, dealing with your mental health, helping your children just to do well in, I don't know, maths or friendship, or your friend who's dealing with a divorce. It's a case of there might be 20 things you need to do, but just work on one. Don't overwhelm yourself. Get it right. Work at your own pace. Then go on to the next thing. You know? No, totally, totally. And let's have those conversations, you know, like let's talk about what's on our mind. Let's talk about like what we want and how we see the future. Because I think the big reason why I became a feminist is because honestly, like, I really, I was one of the people who struggled to identify with this term because of all the bad connotations. It took me a while to fully embrace it. But I grew up in the countryside in the north of France. And a place where most people vote conservative, etc. So very much like countryside, most people are white, that sort of background really. And when I was in conversation with women at my tennis club, for example, because I used to teach tennis, the topic that would often come back is they would very quickly complain about their husbands. And that was very, very funny to me. And I remember like sometimes one One of the women said, oh yeah, I wish I traveled, or I wish I finished my degree, but I met my husband and now, you know, like he doesn't really want to travel, etc. And you could see like a little bit of regret of, you know, like the sort of a little bit of sadness in their eyes. And I was like, wow, because I wasn't raised like that at all. For me, like this is no, I value freedom. I value that so, so much that seeing that made me quite unhappy. And you know, like, as we talked, it's like more and more women were sharing that sort of frustrations. And that's something that turned me into a feminist because I was like, this is not normal that they felt that they couldn't choose what they really wanted to and wanted to do with their lives. And maybe they're happy the way they are, and it's not my job to say, no, you need to do this or this or that to be happy. Like, happiness is a variable. Like, everybody has wrong view of happiness, but still, like, I was like, I just want to make sure that every woman can actually, you know, choose in full knowledge, like, not choose in ignorance, but choose with all the options on the table. So on a morning, I I have been getting quite excited about looking at your YouTube videos, and the kids have been listening and going, "What's Mum on now?" Um, so I've thoroughly enjoyed listening to, um, the various different topics on YouTube. Tell us a little bit more about that and how people can find you. Yeah, so I guess YouTube is where I do most of my work. I publish little video essays, so little videos that usually are from 10 to 20 minutes maximum, let's say. On there, I cover various topics related to internet culture, social media, the news. The goal is always to bring some academia in there, philosophy, sociology, some reflections, personal reflections as well. So this is very coherent with what I did in, in de Brück. So yeah, I guess that's where you can find me. Otherwise, I also have Instagram where I post more like personal stuff, but also more outside of YouTube type of work. Uh, but yeah, I guess if you want to become more familiar with my work, I would tell you to go watch my video essays on YouTube. Do you know what? I'm, I'm really into YouTube. Over the last couple of years, I've really got into the kind of just having— I, I see something that I really want to get involved with, and you can kind of listen to it while you're cooking or doing whatever you want to do, and it's just— and it's there, and it's like— I like it that a lot of your videos are kind of 20 minutes, which is the perfect amount to not be too long and not to have to kind of just sit there and really find the time to be able to do it is a perfect amount. Yeah, that was exactly actually my purpose, you know, like making sure that those little, those little videos can fit into someone's day, whatever they're doing. It's always frustrating though when people say that they watch them doing all this stuff because I'm like, I put so much time in the editing. Why are you doing something else? Why aren't you staring at the screen? But it's okay. I do it too, so it's fine. But yeah, it's just a way of people to consume more information while multitasking. I mean, this is just what we do. Even men have started multitasking. Imagine that. Yes, cultural revolution. Yeah. So just for people to go and find out a little bit more now, Collapse Feminism was released on the 14th of November. People should go and buy the book. It's on— it's through repeatabooks.com, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I guess you can find it online on most platforms. Um, you can go to Repeater Books, and you can also check in your— I always recommend people to go check in, you know, independent bookshops, and if they don't have any copies, then you need to tell them to get some. Yes, because then they've got to get them in, and it's brilliant. Yes, please. Yay! Now, something that I like to ask all of my guests here on Get Booked for Women's and Men's radio station is for 3 top tips on maintaining good mental well-being. I'm quite intrigued to find out what your 3 tips would be. Yeah, so I guess number 1 would be quite basic, to be honest, but just make sure to spend time with yourself, whether it's walking, whether it's— I like those little, like, still productive tasks, writing, walking, all those things that, you know, keep you going, keep you thinking, keep you active, but also allow you to reflect and to ask yourself questions and to, you know, so being creative is something that I usually do when I need I feel like I need, you know, like my mental health is not doing super well. Another thing I would recommend and something that definitely worked a lot for me is just getting more involved into political ideas, you know, like intellectual circles, etc., because this is so refreshing. Like you feel like you're part of something that you can keep up. And I know it sounds, it can sound kind of contradictory because, you know, sometimes like the world is, everything that is happening in the world is kind of scary and you want to, you know, like focus on yourself, etc. But I'm always like, no, no, no, no, no, talk to people, talk about politics. Maybe it's because I'm French and French people love to talk about politics. But you know, that's something I would always recommend. And I guess the last thing would be to kind of, similar to that, but to force yourself to also kind of get out of your comfort zone. And again, it's something that can be kind of scary, that can be stressful, but gosh, the rewards of doing that. Like, whether it's traveling, whether it's like meeting something new, putting yourself in a situation that is kind of risky, kind of, you know, not particularly comfortable, but the joy you get out of it, the sort of connections that you can create are just wonderful. So I guess, yeah, just my vision of— to be honest, my vision of taking care of yourself is a very outward type of vision. I'm always about like I don't want to be just with myself. I want to, I want to look outward and find inspiration, find creativity, find connection outward. And I feel like that's, that's the best way for me to, to get better and to, to feel good about myself. I love that. Just, it's just challenging yourself and a bit like what I said before as well, you know, if it is really scary, just do little elements of what it is that you want to do until they snowball into the whole task, you know. Yeah, totally, totally. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed chatting to you, and I got this list of these, of so many different topics I wanted to talk about within Collapse Feminism, and I think I covered one. Oh gosh, it always happens, you know, like obviously I tackled a lot of different things in this book, maybe too much, maybe there would be something I need to work on for the next one, but it's been a pleasure to talk about it with you, and I guess like we always find a way, like attention to go on to, or like one topic in particular to develop. But yeah, lots more, lots more, a lot more stuff in, in the book, a lot more conversations. But yeah, well, and, and to find out more, our listeners need to go and buy Collapse Feminism by Alice Cabal. Well, I thoroughly loved chatting to you, Alice. Just to remind everybody to pop on to GetBooked WRS, where there'll be a little bit of a link of where you can go and find the book as well. Thank you so much for joining us for Get Booked. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was wonderful, and I look forward to hearing about the second book. Yes, hopefully. We're doomed. We hear this phrase more and more frequently. The ultra-wealthy are already building bunkers in their gardens and space rockets rockets to escape the Earth. Groups of young people called doomers have given up the fight, and fascism is on the rise across Europe. The fatalistic idea that civilization is quickly approaching collapse has become the framework through which we write, debate, theorize, and therefore make society. Such a framework provides fertile ground for the development of conservative ideas in mainstream discourse course, since in times of fear, people are more likely to turn in on themselves and look backwards for answers. Unsurprisingly, the narrative of collapse, replacement, or destitution that is too often pushed by the powerful doesn't foster social action. What happens to feminism in this context? Nothing good, really, and that is precisely why I'm writing this book. Amnesty International has warned of a dramatic deterioration of women's rights worldwide. In France, the country I was born and live in, the Haut Conseil à l'Égalité entre les Femmes et les Hommes, the High Council for Equality between Women and Men, established sexism barometers and discovered that sexism is stagnating or advancing in some areas. In the US, writer Samhita Mukhopadhyay was surprised to see so few women protesting overturn of the Roe v. Wade decision when compared to the Black Lives Matter protests or the Women's March. "There's more raw misogyny now," says feminist author Susan Faludi in a New York Times article titled "The Future Isn't Female Anymore." Why collapse feminism? Collapse feminism considers the predominance of the narrative of collapse but turns it upside down. It seeks inspiration from people at the margins who refuse to settle for fatalism precisely because their existence depends on believing that things can get better. As a white, Western woman, I started writing this book with the intention for it to have the broadest possible appeal. When people enthusiastically asked me what I was writing about, I struggled to say the word feminism because of its negative connotations. When asked what they think about feminism, most men reply they agree with gender equality but that the movement has gone too far, it has become too extreme. This is not surprising given that very little media space is left for feminist activists and thinkers to explain what the movement stands for. The misconceptions around what feminism is can also be related to the multitude of feminism that now exist. I do not have the authority—no one has—to decide what feminism is and what it isn't. However, I can say that feminism to me is bigger than gender equality. It's bigger than women. It's a social project, a vision of how things could be if we ditched the culture of domination that the patriarchy nurtures. In a patriarchal world, people take, use, and throw away. In a feminist world, people would prioritise care. It's a bold claim, some will say, but it sounds a bit naïve. It is true that I probably wouldn't have written that when I started thinking about what I wanted to do with this book. However, as I searched for progressive alternatives to the conservative ideas I'll be criticising in this book, I was almost systematically redirected to feminist literature in all its diversity. I concluded that intersectional feminism offered some of the best answers to the challenges of our time. Sure, feminism won't come up with a protocol on how to decarbonise our economies. It is not a programme, an authoritative force, but an invitation to boldly rethink the basis upon which we make society. That was an author-read extract of today's book, Collapse Feminism, by Alice Cappelle. Alice, who is a prominent new voice whose YouTube videos on related subjects have had over 10 million views, analyzes how conservative and anti-feminist ideas are filtered through social media. And how we can collectively fight back against them to reclaim our future online. So it's a very timely and interesting subject and sure to prompt lively discussions. Next up is a little snippet from Alison Rand's new book. You can find out more about Alison Rand at alisonrandauthor.com. Her book Walking Allison is a poodle's mostly true story of helping her human navigate life. I'm Allison Rand, the author of Walking Allison: A Poodle's Mostly True Story of Helping Her Human Navigate Life. My unique memoir launches December 5th, and you can find it on Amazon. Here's the blurb, and then take a listen to the first chapter called "The Beginning," narrated by Dea. How did humans manage to function before dogs were domesticated some 23,000 years ago? That is what Dea, a savvy black poodle, wonders in "Walking Allison: A Poodle's Mostly True Story of Helping Her Human Navigate Life" by Allison Rand, a wise and jaunty memoir told entirely from her dog's point of view. During their daily walks, new puppy Deia pulls her human Allison by the leash into making connections, handling crippling loss, and coping with the challenges of life. What might have been tragic through Allison's eyes finds wider perspective and resonance through Deia's as she tolerates Allison's pathetic attempts at meditation and online dating, sees her through a second bout of cancer, and finally steers Allison toward appreciating life's daily wonders that are a puppy's birthright. Thanks to Deia's training, Allison learns to finally trust herself in new and life-affirming ways, realizing that feeling safe is a conscious decision. For more information about me and my poodle Deia, who is the narrator of the story, please visit my website, AllisonRandAuthor.com, all one word, and Allison is spelled with one L. Thank you for listening. Chapter 1: The Beginning. Later, much later, after Allison had taken me into her home and her life, she told me that I was born on her birthday, April 2nd. All I know for sure is that my first memory was of lying next to my poodle mama and some scrabbling, groping, slimy, slightly furry creatures. I was the baby, the only female, and I came out with a surprising color— black! Hey, what are you doing? You can't just pick me up like that and— This black girl has a gray marking on her chest and under her chin. Said the lady, peering at me over her glasses. "The others are brown with no markings." Is that a good thing, that I'm different already, before I have even opened my eyes? I have decided yes, it must be a good thing. I am already a special puppy, this much is clear. One of the puppies wasn't wriggling around like the rest of us. They came and took him away, "Too small and delicate," the lady said. "Poor little guy, he's on his way to the Rainbow Bridge." What's a rainbow? What's a bridge? Wait, forget all that. What is that charming smell on the lady's fingers? It's pungent, quite stimulating, actually. What can it be? I think it's a food item, but I can't seem to place it. Well, I've only had a few things to smell so far, and I've got about 3 memories in the memory bank. I'm going to need more clues if they expect me to solve such deep mysteries of life. I'm trying to get a sense of my surroundings. Let's see. I am lying on newspaper, and I have to report right up front that this is not very comfortable. This is not what I expected. Well, I don't know what I expected, but this newspaper certainly isn't it. Didn't they just say I was special? That I was black? Not brown like the others? Actually, now that I think this over, I'm feeling a bit confused because I really cannot see anything. No black, no brown. My eyes are still mostly shut. I feel my way with a little nudge from the lady with the odor on her fingers as I inch over to my poodle mama. She is lying on a comfier surface with padding inside a covered type of metal box. I try to get in prime position before my two brothers get there. They are busy licking each other and I block their way. Ha! If they want to feed first, they will have to pay more attention. Do not underestimate me! No siree! Oops! I just tumbled over and now I'm up again. Triumph! There's so much to do around these parts: wrestle with my brothers, sleep, pee on the bad newspaper, sleep some more, and jockey for position when it's time to feed. After having my fill, I pee, curl up into the tiniest ball, and snooze. Busy, busy! I don't know how much time has passed. A lot? A little? My eyes are fully open now. There's plenty going on out here. I look forward to seeing the Lady and smelling her strong odor. She certainly is an odd one because I can't tell what she's all about. She doesn't provide milk. She doesn't seem to pee or nap. She doesn't wrestle. What a lonely, hollow existence she must have. Instead, she brings over short yappy humans who are very loud and clumsy. And who try to poke their fingers at me. "Be careful of the puppies, kids," the lady says. They like to look at my brothers and me and giggle. Every time we tumble over each other, they howl and laugh. When they come close enough to touch me, I kiss them on their noses, which makes them squeal. Is there something wrong with them? I have to admit though, I enjoy the excited sound they make. Clearly they think I am very special because for everything I do, they make that noise. I have to admire their energy. I am going to make a little mental note of this, that tiny people are fun and they have a great attitude toward me. I can hone my innate comic abilities on them. They acknowledge, as I have suspected since the day I was born on Allison's birthday. That I am the center of the universe. "Don't take them out of the crate," the woman tells the kids. Is this a crate? Will this be my new life? It feels pretty good so far. I can play with my squirmy brothers anytime I like, and I feel safe and protected when I'm huddled with them in one big squirmy ball. The lady also visits the crate sometimes without the giggling little humans and strokes all of us. Even my poodle mama. Sometimes she rubs behind my ears and it feels really good. I reach up and kiss her on her nose. I am a good kisser. But then, after giving me such a nice rub, comes the worst thing ever to happen in my entire life. The lady leaves! That's right, whenever she's done with her visit, she stops petting us and she leaves the room. I moan and cry until I cry myself to sleep. I can't help it. What have I done to merit such harsh treatment? Was I a bad puppy? But she kept saying I was a good puppy. Why does she have to leave me? My brothers don't seem to notice, but I don't like it at all. Even after a nap, I remember I've been utterly abandoned and I scrabble frantically around the newspaper. Hoping the Lady will come back soon. Surely if I cry again, she will hear my urgent plea. If I were to think it through, perhaps I would remember that this happens all the time. The Lady shows up, she scratches me behind the ear, she goes away, and eventually she comes back again. But that is a very long train of thought, and I am a very tiny puppy, and all I know is that the Lady has abandoned me, no doubt for the rest of time. Here's an idea, one of my very first. I can get my Poodle Mama to nestle me. I am the cutest. I am black with a gray marking on my chest and under my chin, and she will just have to nestle me. But my Poodle Mama is resting. She is not interested in nuzzling me. And she can't scratch me behind the ear like the lady does. My brief little life is over before it has truly begun. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and you've been listening to Get Booked. I am such a huge book book fan that I love doing this show, and Get Booked is all about talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. If you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked. Thank you for listening.