Get Booked – Am I Loved, John Bieber 120721

Hello, you are listening to Get Booked with me, Hazel Butterfield, for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing their who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. Now, today's guest on Get Booked is John D. Bieber and the book Am I Loved? This has been described as a book of secrets, a book about life, how life has been lived by a parade of humanity 65 billion names long, all of whom have got it wrong, failing to understand how things are meant to be. The The book defines the human condition as it is and, unknown until now, how it has always been. Now, while reading John's book, I was going through a minefield of realisations. This is one of those books that will be quoted in numerous conversations with my friends and colleagues when we're trying to decipher not just our behaviour when going through one of many of life's difficulties, but the behaviour and processes of others. Do you know what? We need to get get stuck in and cover as much as possible while I have John at my disposal. John, hi, thank you for joining us. Good morning, good morning, good morning. Well, uh, where do we even start? I mean, you, you've really kind of, um, taken it all back to, to dot, haven't you, and explained the whole human psyche. Um, tell us, tell the listeners a little bit about Am I Loved and why you decided to write this book. Right, well, it all started years ago when I was in practice as a solicitor doing a lot of divorces, and I suddenly realized that everybody was making a hash of their divorce just as badly as they made a hash of their marriage. And I couldn't work out why. Obviously, emotionally, they were in no condition whatsoever to take these steps, and it was very sad. And I then thought, well, I can help these people, and I wrote a book called If Divorce Is the Only Way, which was published by Penguin, and it did help a lot of people, but I knew no more about emotions then than anyone else. And so I started to ponder the whole thing, and I had a great friend who's an eminent psychiatrist, and we started to write a book about adolescence and children and emotions. And then suddenly I realized that there was a complete vacuum of understanding about emotions amongst the adult population. So I abandoned the book and started on this, and many, many years later, after a lot of research and thinking, we have the book, and that's about it. I think it encompasses all our secrets, as you say, and my hope and belief is that it will enable people to understand their condition, because I really do believe humanity has got it wrong. One of the ironies is that the things, the very things that make us human, are those that make us ill at ease in our humanity. And I try to work that one through in the book, and I hope we get a very positive and happy outcome and conclusion. Well, do you know what? A theme I get amongst my friends is, you know, when we don't understand why someone's behaving a certain way towards us, we say, I just don't know why they're behaving that way. I don't know why they're being so mean or whatnot. And it is because— And it does— you manage to boil it all back down to whether they are feeling loved. I mean, you even talk in the book about, you know, maybe if Hitler had felt a little bit more loved, he wouldn't have turned into a genocidal maniac. Well, that is true. And that is the essence of humanity, that we need to be loved so desperately. And it's actually a call for someone to love us when we need to be loved. And that's, that's because of nature's protections, because nature provided us with protections that she hadn't given to the rest of creation, namely emotions, which are the real trouble, and also our capacity to love, and more specifically our need to be loved. And that's really the powerhouse within us that drives us as human beings. Well, I also— especially the conversation I had with a colleague at work yesterday, and she was explaining why something that a friend had done to her which was not very nice. And I had the book on my desk and I said, wow, I think this book kind of answers why your friend's being that way. And yes, we do want to be loved, but when we're scared to find out that possibly we're not, we behave in different ways. We push people away or we do things that aren't as desirable to kind of rationalize it a little bit more as well, if you understand what I mean by that. Um, a lot of it, a lot of the way that we behave is just, just boiled down to whether we want to be loved or whether we want to not find out whether we are loved. Well, I, I think the greatest need, as I say, is to be loved. It is everybody's need, and the greatest source of human misery is when someone doesn't feel their love. But when you say that people behave in a certain way which no one can understand, it's totally understandable because our emotions respond to the needs not of ourselves but of our genes, which is our life force. They are there only to protect our genes, which means that protects our lives, which is all nature wants. She wants us to procreate and carry on life through to eternity. There is no other reason for our emotions, and that's why we can't have them any other way. We can't control them, we can't understand them, but we have to try to manage them, and I hope the book helps with that. It does, and quite succinctly. I'm surprised that you managed to write about what you did and explain what you did in under 200 pages. Yes, well, it was very condensed, but I think to me it's So you can't believe how complicated it was to start with a blank piece of paper. And I still write by hand, and I wrote and rewrote and rewrote and rewrote until I thought I got it right. Wow, and how long did that take? Well, if I say 15 years, it wasn't full-time by any means, but it took me 15 years of thinking and writing and rewriting and researching. Oh wow, that's incredible. Yes, and sorry, I was going to say that my wife insisted I went and got it published because she said she didn't want to waste the 15 years. You will do something with that, you will make sure it was worthwhile, you spending 15 years. It will save the world. Oh wow, um, I mean What was your favourite chapter to write? Oh, funnily enough, the chapters on God, the two chapters, wrote themselves, and I was astonished at the conclusion. In fact, I was quite dismayed at my conclusion, but that's what it is, and it's a sort of a total logical sequence. There's no argument. That's exactly as it is, and I was really surprised, but they sort of wrote themselves. I'm not claiming any religious miracle, but they wrote themselves. Easy to write. There is, I mean, there is quite a role of religion in this book, isn't there? Well, I think we can't, as I say in the introduction, we cannot unwrite God from our mindset, from our everyday life, whether we believe in him or not. And so he does feature in some way or another. And yes, of course, that has to be mentioned and has to be explained. And well, and also, you know, the, as you you say in the book, the whole idea of religion is to have a being that is loving us. Yes, yes, I say that. And then one of my conclusions at the end is that he cannot love us in any tangible way. We can't have love requited, which is what everybody wants when they need to be loved. They have a faith in him. It's a faith in the unprovable. And this is the mischief, that when you think of all the atrocities that have been committed throughout history by all the religions, once against the other, that we've given our love to the wrong person. Because if we'd given the same amount of love to each other, we wouldn't have had all these problems. Yeah, when I was reading that chapter, I was thinking, right, I mean, I had to stop quite often when I was reading the book, because you've got to kind of digest it and kind of reason with what you've just explained. Yes, yes, it is. It is, isn't it? I kind of feel like, I mean, yesterday, because I was struggling to find the time, but I do at some point, I finished the book yesterday, but at some point today, I want to just go and sit in a café and kind of stare at the book wall. I can't be at home where I'm busy with, you know, knowing that a picture needs to be straightened or the dishwasher's got to be emptied. I just need to sit completely away from any distractions and actually just think through some of the elements and just kind of reason with it. I mean, there was something— I did have a realization when I was reading the book, which, you know, good books do do that for you, and I am addicted 'Falling in Love and Feeling Loved.' And I think, you know, I probably could write a whole book from reading your book and realizing that I'm addicted to falling in love. Because it's not just— There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that at all. No, but the whole falling in love element, and, you know, it doesn't last, does it? It's a particular kind of emotion. We are emotional beings, and we want to kind of find longevity. And if you think about it, if you think about what's happening, um, especially in the last 10, 20 years, people do not stay together anymore. They seem to love falling in love and feeling loved, and when they don't, they quit. Which, yes, I'm sure you've come across in your line of work. Yes. No, that's why— that's the real punch in the book is when we say, am I loved or am I surviving? Because those people are surviving, they're not loving. And they have to love if they want a full life. And can I just, just clarify this, that love, as I explained, is nature's way of protecting our life because she knows that we'll have another pair of eyes and ears and hands and everything else to help us to protect ourselves, and we protect someone else. So we have great comfort and great strength in the emotions of others when they love us, and we give that same strength to them. It's an absolutely infallible system when it works. And love is the only emotion that you can choose either to bestow or withhold. And all I can say is, you know, don't give it away too easily. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of people when they read this book reimagining how they behave. I would imagine, yeah. But can I just say, I think I have distilled the definition of love to one very short sentence. It's simply, love is the gauging and supply of another's needs. Now, if you do that for your partner and they do it for you, you should live happily ever after. But I don't think anybody does because they're too busy surviving. They're not thinking of the other partner, they're thinking of themselves. And that is just not going to work. And that's why there's so much divorce and so much unhappiness. You, you're not a divorce lawyer anymore, are you? No, no, no, I'm, I'm not. No, thank you. I mean, that must, um, I've been through my own divorce and, um, it must be hard work hearing people pull each other. Oh, it is. I used to come home, I used to come home and say to my wife, my God, at least we haven't done that. When I had a new client, it's just astonishing how depraved and sad people's lives are. Well, but I think, you know, I do say there's no guilt in divorce and each side's responsible. And substantially that is correct, because people do not commit, as you're saying. They just, they let things go too easily. And, and people decide to get divorced because one or both parties no longer feel loved, or they feel let down in some way, shape, or form. And they are doing one of the most important transitions when they are the most emotional and feeling not loved. Absolutely. Well, I say at the time, there are two things. One, when they get divorced, they're in no position to take any decisions because emotionally it's just ridiculous. They— everything's up in the air. And secondly, there's a paradox where when they're emotionally unhappy, they feel emotionally divorced, and the minute they get divorced, they feel emotionally married again and don't let the people go and keep arguing about everything. It's very sad indeed. I'm full of compassion for people getting divorced. It's not an easy thing or a terrible thing. And of course it's the children, it's the children who are the real victims. And I dedicated my divorce book to the children of divorced families because they're bound to be the victims at the end of the day. And then they in turn often divorce. It's very, very sad. Well, it's very hard to hide your emotions as, as a parent when you're going through something incredibly sad and scary. Oh, it's impossible. That's why it's— everybody suffers. I mean, look, I shouldn't refer maybe to Matt Hancock's position. There are 6 children now who are going to be exposed to the most terrible trauma and upset. Oh, and yeah, and you just kind of think, um, I did actually see something on Twitter the other day. Somebody put out a fantastic tweet that just said, in no way, shape, or form should anyone be taking pictures of the other partners and leave them alone. And anybody that feels that that's of anybody's interest, you really need to have a good hard look at yourself. Oh, I'm sure that— oh, sorry, I'm sure that's true. Yes, it's, um, yeah, and it's just such an emotional time as we played out as well in public. Um, but it's just at a time when you are not feeling loved and you're having to make the most incredible decisions ever, it's— I mean, if you think about it, people who have a rebound relationships. I mean, this book explains that as well, you know. It's people who are wanting to cover up the emotions and feel loved as soon as possible. Yes, well, they're desperate. I mean, I can understand that. It's so obvious that one just needs that reassurance, that comfort from somebody, and that's how they often marry on— they are not only marry on the rebound, they marry the same sort of person again, which is a real folly. Well, that's because it's familiarity, isn't it? Yes, yes. And it's, it's easier. Um, but wow. And if I was to ask you for 3 bits of advice on being loved and feeling loved, what would you offer? Well, I think I'd have to— you say the book's quite complicated. I'd have to explain it as in the book. I think I'd have to say that Nature has protected us, as I said, with, with emotions and the capacity to love, the need to be loved. So if we take it from there, the need to be loved is the first thing that I would say should be fulfilled, and that's really what everybody seeks to do. And as I said also, if they're not fulfilled, that's the greatest source of human misery. So we have to find a way to make ourselves lovable and to think of us as somebody who's giving, not taking. And that to me would be a shorthand version of how we can fulfill our need to be loved. I think we have to understand our emotions, that's the second thing. Emotions are weird things, they take us over, they make decisions we wouldn't necessarily want to take ourselves. And as you were saying when you're talking about a friend who's behaving irregularly, they can't help it. You have to have compassion and understand that. And so if I can explain, as I have done in the book, what emotions are for— they're not to protect us, which is a big shock because we all think they're our protection, they're our emotions. They're actually nature's. They're responding to the needs of nature, which is to protect our genes. So I wrote the book primarily because I thought, how can we, as sophisticated emotional beings, neither understand nor control our emotions, because it's our emotions which drive us as human beings. And I've tried to explain it all in Am I Loved? I hope I've succeeded, but I think one has to have that understanding to be able to live a peaceful life. And then the climax of the book is the chapter on what I call the supreme sense, where we're talking about people who say, am I loved, or people who say, am I surviving. Now, the decision arises when we have an emotion. It happens all the time, and the emotion is gauged by reference to its effect on our need to be loved, which, as I say, is paramount. So it's either positive or it's negative. Now, too often when it's negative, we then assess that, that conclusion, and we say, no, I'm not surviving. And it's the people who say that, and they are the vast majority, who lead unhappy lives. And what you really need is to say, am I loved? And of course I'm not feeling loved at the moment, as emotion is negative, but what can I do to get over that? And what can I give to everyone else to make sure I am loved? So those would be the 3 aspects I would concentrate on. But as I say, they're explained very fully in the book Am I Loved? They are indeed. I mean, I must, I must say, I think those are great points. I do— what I always say to people when they ask me what they can do to kind of try and improve themselves, understanding ourselves is the biggest gift we can, we can bestow. I mean, if you think about it, if you understand why you behave in a particular way, if you know what is going to give you that boost, it's incredible. So yeah, understanding our emotions. And you know what, people shy away from it because they get a little bit scared of sometimes understanding themselves. And instead, you know, as you actually talk about towards the end of the book, you know, people seem to busy themselves with buying the next car or the Xbox or, you know, beat the Joneses. And it's all distraction, isn't it? It's very destructive indeed, and it's really very primitive if you think about it. When you see, we've always thought nature was red in tooth and claw, but I have revealed, I hope successfully, in Am I Love? that she's not, that we have the same identity, the same actual desire to provide for the safety of life, and so that life can continue. And yet we've always got it wrong because we've never understood that nature was on our side. And by revealing the Supreme Sense and also going on to what I've called Nature's Morality, which is how then to live a good and fulfilled life, I hope I will help a lot of people. It certainly helped me. When I go and get myself upset about something, I can now say, now why am I upset? And I can see, oh yes, this was threatening me. I didn't feel happy about something. Something, and it gets out of all proportion. And, and that's something we can control. We can't control our emotions, but we can control our reactions to them. This is the beauty of good books, where they help us to understand ourselves more and enlighten us. Um, one of the reasons why I absolutely love doing this show. Um, and your book is very philosophical and very profound, isn't it? There's, there's, um, and quite poetic, I found. Sorry, I've lost you. I was just saying your book is very philosophical and very profound, and it's very poetic, isn't it? Well, I've used a lot of literature to illustrate things, and particularly with love, when I used the play Cyrano de Bergerac. And to me, I'm so moved by that balcony scene, but it absolutely explains everything about love. It is a subterfuge, as one man's pretending to be another, wooing a girl on the balcony. But it's, it's actually what love is all about. It's— we need to be loved more than we want to love. I want— it's so extraordinary that this is— that is the way life is, and that is the way nature ordered us to be, because she just wants to protect life and she doesn't care who we couple with. She just wants us to couple and get on with it and get the genes into the next generation. Yeah, it's about evolution. Get the job done. Yes, yes, right, so move on. Wow. Yeah, I mean, there are so many different sections to this book, um, and, and as I said, you do relate back to, um, previous writings from some incredible authors and poets out there. Are you a fan of reading yourself? Oh, very much so, yes, I do. Whenever, when I get time, and it's less and less nowadays, but yes, I do love to read. And have you read anything recently that you've loved? Oh yes, well, I read a wonderful biography of George Washington by a man called Ron Chernow, who wrote the book on Hamilton, which I also read, that that gave birth to the musical, and they were both fabulous books, very long big ones, and I've enjoyed reading very much, and I also enjoy good fiction. Yeah, I'm a huge— I like to mix it up a little bit, just— Oh yes, I go from one to the other, very much so. And how are you finding, like, you spent 15 years writing this book, and now it is done, now it's published, now it's out there, Are you feeling somewhat bereft because this has been a part of your life for 15 years? No, I've got rid of it. I'm feeling liberated, it's wonderful. And I actually, I'm very happy to have it, and I'm very happy I'm doing the Audible of it, the recording, and I'm very happy to leave that behind me. I just think that's rather cute, rather fun. So are you voicing the Audible version? Yes, yes. Oh wow, that's exciting. Well, it is, it is. It's, it's, it's not as easy as I thought it would be to sit down and read, um, but anyway, it's gone very well, although I, I do need to do one or two chapters again. But, um, it's, it's, it's been a great experience. I listened to Barack Obama's audiobook recently, and, um, just to put this into— have you read the book? No, no, no, I haven't. Right, so keeping in mind that your book is just shy of 200 pages, the Audible version of Barack Obama's book was 29 hours long. Oh dear. And he did it all himself. So yeah, that's quite incredible. So I'm guessing your book's probably about, going to be about 5 hours maybe. 5 or 6, I think. It's certainly listenable, but you don't realize everybody makes the odd mistake and you'll say, oh sorry, this and that, it all has to be edited out. It takes a lot of time and a lot of expertise for the studio. I do love it, you know, that there's so many different ways for people to actually consume literature these days because, you know, about 20, 30 years ago, people would say, "Mm, not really a fan of reading, um, you know, don't have the time, blah blah blah." There's so many different ways where it's so much more attainable, and for people who either don't read or don't enjoy reading, the fact that there's Audible out there, I think it's just, it's incredible. I mean, yeah. I know, I was going to say that my wife, um, never had time to read books, and now she's going around with headphones the whole time. She's deaf when I try to find her, and she's read about 60 or 70 books. It's fantastic. I mean, it's phenomenal. Yeah, because it just means that, you know, when I go to the gym or I go out for a walk with the dog— and there's no point talking to the dog because she never talks back to me. When she does start talking back to me, that's when I suppose I'll need to worry. But I just think it's a fantastic way of just consuming more, and I like the variety. Yes. I just get a little bit bored of music, but also it's been fantastic for people in lockdown as well, having that additional voice or just hearing somebody else's voice and feeling like— especially those where they either lived on their own or possibly wanted to drown the children out, Yeah, no, no, it's true, and you just feel a friend with the reader. It's a very special experience, I think. Oh yeah, absolutely. I did actually, I was going into my local town the other day, I went for a walk with my children, and a couple of the parents who we just bumped into them, and they were like, "Oh wow, this is incredible, you're all out together. I can never get my children to spend time with me on a Saturday," and blah blah blah. And what they didn't see is we all had our hair— we all had our earphones in. One was listening to— yeah, and it was like, oh, we never get our children to spend time with us on a Saturday, that's incredible. One was listening to Spotify, the other one was listening to an Audible, and I was listening to— I can't remember which Audible it was, but we were all doing our own thing. But you were able to talk to her, were you? Yeah, well, I— kind of waving. Hello, hello. Yeah, no, I think it's absolutely fantastic, and how exciting that it's going out on Audible as well. So it was released on the 28th of May, so how has the response been so far? Well, it's been really rather good and rather gratifying. There are some people who plainly don't understand it, and that's been a disappointment, but the vast majority have gone over the top and really loved it. Brilliant, you know, everything's not for everybody, you know, that's just life, isn't it? We're not all the same, but I think there's definitely something for absolutely— I think there is something in this book. There's so many different sections to it as well. I did actually— I love what you said about the— let me find the page— about how children probably learn more in the playground than they do actually in the classroom. What was that, page 165? There's just some absolutely lovely nuggets and realisations in there, and there was— if I can just read out one of my one of my favorite sections that kind of— I curled the page over and I decided that I wanted to make sure that I could read it every now and again. I hope you don't mind me doing this. This is page— No, no, not at all. It's page 28. It says, "Indeed, running like an invisible thread throughout all our experience and dealings, the need to be loved is the most powerful influence in all human contact, even though the wreckage of love is all around us." and there is nothing we can do about it. Feeling loved is all that we aspire to. It is a personal validation in any relationship. Making them feel loved is genuinely the thing of most value that one person may give to another. We feel protected by love, as this is how nature programmed us to feel, proximate to survival. Our feeling loved is a need fulfilled and an ideal state in which to sustain the protection of our genes. And— I couldn't have written better myself. I love that. I think that really does sum up what is being described and explained to us in this book. And do you know when you just read something where you know you want to be able to come back to it and just remind yourself every now and again? And I just— I love that section. I absolutely thought it was fantastic. Do you— I know that we're not here to talk about your previous book, If Divorce Is the Only Way: An Emotional and Practical Guide to the Essential Dos and Don'ts of Divorce and Marital Breakdown, but I'm sure people would be a little bit interested to know what the dos and don'ts of a marital breakdown are. Oh my God, there's so many. We haven't got enough time. No, no, no, I want to— well, I can go and get a copy and look at the index and tell you if you want. But one of the things was very strongly, do not feel guilt. It's the— unless it's a terrible case where there's gross and obvious terrible behavior, there's no guilt at all. It's a mutual thing. Because when people feel guilt, I found very often— I'd like to give this message— they felt that they were doing the wrong thing and therefore they should not get divorced when it's so obvious sometimes that there should be a divorce. And that's why I wrote the book, because I wanted to say, if you can untie the knot, why cut it? In other words, don't fight, because all you're doing is fighting over maybe 10% in the middle that might be uncertain. Otherwise, it's completely obvious to the court and the lawyers what the proportion of assets should be and how they should be distributed. And so that to me is another thing— don't fight and waste the cost and make the lawyers rich. If you can just have a good divorce so that you can preserve all the relationships between parents and children, even between grandparents and children, and just family generally. And I feel that so many times divorce is a war and it's there to destroy, and that is absolute madness, and it's so tragic for the children. So those were my two things that I remember from the book. Very, very much, very strongly. I was reading about your book online and I love— it did actually say the bit that you said at the beginning then, you know, why cut the ties when you can untie it? I love that, it's so incredibly profound. I do remember, I mean, my divorce was quite crazy, definitely lots of courts and barristers and whatnot, and it just happened to be that one of the days that we were in court happened to fall on my eldest son's birthday, so I was Although we spent 3 or 4 hours in court with judges and barristers, we then walked away, you know, completely hating each other, but also had to meet up 3 hours later to go for dinner and go and play Laser Quest with our children. Oh my God, that really is difficult, isn't it? We have a rule that, you know, on our kids' birthdays, we always go out for dinner. We spend it together. And, you know, and if there's a party, obviously he's always going to be invited. But it was very interesting because there was two separate sides in Laser Quest. We're on opposite sides and we're kind of battling it out in court and then kind of shooting lasers at each other within 2 or 3 hours. And we were just kind of looking at each other going, this is not okay, this is so weird. Dear, dear, dear. Anyway, I hope you survived it intact. Yeah, he did actually. I think he won, he won that game as well, which was It was smarting. Oh dear, oh dear. It's okay, I won the next, the next game that we played at the next children's party, so you know, swings and roundabouts. How many children have you got? I've got two, ah, um, both boys. Yeah, um, you've got children as well, haven't you? Yes, I've got four. Four. And now we 4 grandchildren as well, and 2 still to get married, so we're living in hope of a large brood of grandchildren. Oh, brilliant! And have your children read your book? Oh yes, I should say! Oh, they're great fans. I mean, they're wonderful, they're wonderful, all of them are wonderful. Wow, brilliant! And now something that I like to ask all of the guests here on GetBooked, because there's so much negativity out there. People seem to, um, I mean, I don't know how much you're on social media, but there seems to be that we, we are all consuming all this negative energy. So I like to ask my guests, um, is there somebody out there in the public eye that you think is just wonderful? You know, they say nice things, they offer up positivity, and they're just inspirational to see. Well, I have got a couple of people I would nominate for everything, but I don't know particularly what one of them says. But can I tell you, because I think they are inspirational, because they're really my children's generation, and yet they're both prime ministers. You've probably heard of Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand, who's been prime minister since 2017, and she was the youngest then ever to be prime minister. And she's had the most extraordinary effect and has now has a vast majority in Parliament and can't really do anything wrong. And I was amused that she worked for Tony Blair in London and then was brought up as a Mormon. And she's had the most extraordinary life. And I do remember after she did so well in dealing with COVID that she made a public address, which I did hear, when she said, "Please tell the children that the tooth fairy will be a little late this year." which I thought was just so disarming because we've always had a tooth fairy in my family, and I just thought the children would just adore that, and I think the public too as well. She's quite unique. But the one I think I would nominate for the most inspirational young woman at the moment is the Prime Minister of Finland, who is called Sanna Marin, who's only 35 now. She was born in 1985, and she is the Prime Minister of Finland, head of a coalition of 4 parties, all of whom are headed by women, which I find interesting. And when her alcoholic father left her mother, the mother moved in with a same-sex partner, and together they brought her up, which is also interesting. And she also caused a lot of stir a couple of years ago by, by finding featuring on the COVID of a magazine just wearing a blazer with nothing underneath, which I thought was rather terrific actually. And apparently it caused a huge stir, but all her friends then photographed themselves the same way and the whole thing blew over. So those are the two, I think, of the present young generation who have really made the mark and are an inspiration to all young people and admiration of all older people. I think they're absolutely fantastic, and, and definitely Jacinta has come up a few times when I've asked my guests this, this is that same question. She's just, she's personable, she is realistic, she just absolutely smashes it out of the park. I've heard numerous people say, can we not just borrow her for a few years? But apparently she went to the UN and to the General Assembly and took her baby with her. It's the first time a baby's been in the General Assembly. Well, yes, because she said, 'I'm a working mum.' Um, yeah, and I think that, that is good. It's, it's positive. It's just working with what you've got, and I love that. Absolutely. And if people like that are doing it, it makes it easier for other people to do as well. I so agree with you. I so agree. No, I think they're both inspirational and much to be commended. If you think of the, the process in this country of becoming Prime Minister, nobody could ever do it under 40, certainly, and probably under 45. It's quite remarkable. Well, yeah, and especially in the States when they're hiring the head of state who's in his late 70s. Yes, quite the best they could find. Yeah, that's when most people are considering retiring, or even 10 years beforehand if they're not dead. Yes. Yeah. Wow. Um, now I would like to ask, did you have any struggles with writing Am I Loved over the 15 years? Yes, I did. Yes, I did. I must tell you, I hadn't a clue where it was going, and suddenly it all fell into place. I had a lot of trouble with that, but it's all there in black and white, and it seems to work. At least it does work, but it's just, it took a lot to put it together. Yeah, well, and then you finally did it, and then that was it. You're free to help the wife. Mind you, it wasn't like that. No, no, there was a problem because somebody, an American publicist, read it and thought it was out of this world. I was told it would be a legacy book, sell for 30 years, and be top of the New York Times bestseller list. So I went along with them, and they were going to launch it in America, and I was told every day for 6 months how wonderful it was. And then blow me down, the man who was telling me, who was an extremely nice chap who worked for the publicist, ended up in prison. And he had found me an agent who had a major stroke. So I wasted, I wasted a lot of time on America and then came back back to this country to see what I could do here. I did actually— it's not been an easy ride. No, I did actually read that in the acknowledgements and I was having a little bit of a giggle to myself. I mean, Americans do like to say, 'Oh, this is amazing, it's going to go everywhere,' and then, yeah, they end up in jail. But if you hear it for 6 months, you know, you believe it. You do indeed. Well, I think we're grateful that we've got it over here in the UK. It's going to be moving over. You'll be able to sell it in the States as well anyway, won't you? Well, I think it would go down better in the States than in this country, actually. I think people would devour things like that if it's properly launched. Yes, I think so as well. And, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure that's going to happen. And but then when that does happen, and when it does become on the New York Times bestseller list, they're going to be demanding another book. And what would be your next book? Oh dear, I've got two unpublished novels I never bothered to publish, which again, you ask about my children, they think one of them is the best book they've ever read. But anyway, that's by the by. And I wanted to write a play, but I don't think I ever will. So I don't think I'm going to do very much more writing. Although I could update my divorce book very considerably, very easily, and that is something I could consider. Yes, because especially after COVID, divorce rates are going through the roof. Oh, it's sad. Yes, it's true, it's true, it is. But there's so many more. You see, when I wrote the book, there weren't quite that many people cohabiting without outside of marriage. And I think if you take those into account, you'll find that people have broken up in huge numbers consistently for years. Yeah, although I think what is quite— what I heard in terms of divorce, I mean, obviously people were locked in together before they had the distractions of being able to go to the office and, and, you know, go to the pub. And when they had to realize that they had to live with this person properly as if they liked each other, that's when the divorce rate sparked. But because people weren't allowed to be going into court and whatnot, people could get divorced really easily on the online and a lot cheaper. Oh, that's interesting, it's sort of do it yourself. Well, yeah, I mean, that is what I heard, whether it's actually true or not, I'm not sure, but it was interesting seeing the amount of houses that were coming up on the market as soon as restrictions were lifted. Oh, that's sad. You see, there's a pandemic here and there's a pandemic in Japan, divorced by the sounds of it. Yes, because people don't want to risk having to possibly— well, have you seen the program that was put up on BBC One with Sharon Horgan and James McAvoy? And it was about a couple who didn't particularly like each other and they were on the, you know, verge of divorce anyway, and it kind of documents it. No, I didn't see that, sorry. Oh, I mean, it's absolutely fantastic, and it kind of, it's kind of, it is fiction, but they're talking to the camera and talking about each other and how horrible it is and the, what they've had to go through and how they've kind of pulled together. And then we originally thought that we were going to be locked down with each other for 2 or 3 weeks, and then it essentially ended up being nearly a year, didn't it? Yes, yes, yes. And it just, it documents all of it, and a lot of the things that a lot of people have you've had to go through and all the conversations. And I don't want to say how it ends in case people, certain people haven't watched it yet, but it was, it's fantastically done. And if you are a fan of TV, I would suggest going and having a look at it because it's just, it's just the whole am I loved emotions. It covers so much of what is in your book anyway. It's just human nature. Yes. Well, that's very interesting. You see, we are all human, and the point is that the community of humankind is linked actually by a huge ignorance of the human condition. But what it should be is we've all got these desperate needs to be loved in common, and if we could only realize that, there should be peace on earth and harmony. But of course, nobody ever will. But I hope that Am I Loved will actually help people avoid these pitfalls and avoid divorce and just sort some things out sensibly because they'll understand them and avoid the pitfalls. That's my great hope. Well, what is quite problematic, John, is that, you know, we are conscious of something like 5% of our actions. That's— have you heard that kind of percentage before? No, no, I haven't. No.. And, um, I came across, especially when I was, uh, I started looking into hypnotherapy and it's, it was very interesting. And yeah, they do say that a lot of what we do is on a completely unconscious level. So, you know, this is why people need books like yourselves to try and help us understand ourselves a little bit more and be a little bit more in control of what we do, what we say, and what we put out there into the world. Oh, I so agree with that. I mean, I really do. I think there's such an ignorance, and it's so sad. We've got— we've really not advanced emotionally since the Stone Age men and Cro-Magnon men and women, all 40,000 years ago. It's very, very sad. And that's why you're referring to the last chapter on humankind and the playground, and that's why I was pointing out, and I think quite dramatically, that kids are really fashioned in the playground, and unless they're saying, am I loved, before they get there, there's very little chance that they'll emerge saying anything else but, am I surviving? Because it's the, it's, it's the survival of the fittest in the playground, isn't it? And it's all about— I mean, I, I'm sure I was exactly the same for my parents as well. But, you know, the kids come home and all they seem to be bothered about is whether whether they're going to so-and-so's party and whether they've got the right Xbox game and whatnot. And it's just, oh, it's— I mean, it's all they seem to be bothered about. But that's, that's just being able to identify with their peers. Yes, no, but it's essential because they will not survive in that environment unless they can. And it's so sad. It was quite— it's such a struggle for me because, like, I, I'm not a huge fan of the kids having anything and everything. I never wanted my kids to be, to be spoiled, to just expect this, that, and whatever. But I do— I had a friend back when I was a child, and the parents were very, very strict. There were— there weren't even TVs in the house, and shopping at where all the other kids were shopping, you know, that wasn't allowed. It was very much kind of make your own clothes. And because of that, and it sounds so superficial, they couldn't fit in at school and they couldn't even have conversations with their friends because they'd be talking about whatever happened on Neighbours and Home and Away or whatever other program was going on, you know. They wouldn't also be able to get in on the jokes of whatever was happening at that particular moment, whether it was Friends or whatever, because they weren't aware of any of it. And And although it feels ridiculous to say, you know, kids need TV and they need all these superficial bits and bobs, if they don't, they don't actually get to integrate into friendship groups. And again, they don't feel loved. I mean, both the children I now know are struggling as adults because they didn't learn those skills. Yes, it was important. Oh gee, it's a culture. I mean, we all have a culture. The culture in school is, is the culture of the playground, where you learn more in terms of personal survival than you ever will in this, in the classroom. Yeah, completely. I mean, it's one of those— I mean, didn't they used to say, um, give me a Jesuit, give me a child till he's 7? I was actually going to say about, you know, even going to university, you know, um, it's not necessarily about what you're learning at university, it's experience. Once you come at the start of adulthood, isn't it? Oh, totally, yes, of course it is, yeah. It's just, and it's one of those things where, I mean, I actually, I missed out on going to university in the traditional sense. I ended up doing it at the Open University because of, I was traveling around the world at university age. Exactly. Well, to be honest, that was just as, just, I kind of don't feel like I missed stout. Oh, it's a better education going around the world, I should think. Oh, absolutely fantastic. And I used to insist on, um, doing as much as I could on my own, because when you're on your own, people speak to you and you get to find out about people. And I think, you know, um, we need to be engaging with each other and finding the right— the correct level in which to do that. No, absolutely. And so where did you go to when you traveled? Um, I was— I went to Australia quite a bit, places like, um, Brunei, which is an interesting place to go on your own, a lot of Southeast Asia, America, you name it. I would work ridiculously long hours and then take 3 months off. Oh, wonderful. And other times I was quite lucky that I used to travel with work as well because I used to do, um, modeling, so I was very lucky that I got to travel around with that. Oh, fabulous! And were you always safe? I'm pretty certain I always felt completely safe, but I think if I thought my children were in situations that I possibly put myself in back when I was 18, I would be horrified. Oh dear! Yes, I'm sure. I mean, there is some fantastic camaraderie out there, especially, you know, when you're backpacking. When it's work, you're completely safe anyway, you're with people, you're being looked after. But yes, it can be, it can be quite interesting though. You hear of ridiculous horror stories, but when you're, when you're 18, 19, you care very little, do you? When you're a parent, I'm sure you wouldn't have done without that, looking back? Oh, it was absolutely fantastic, but it's just about engaging with people and engaging with cultures and, you know, going into these ridiculously remote jungles and just meeting random people. But I would be— I'd have to let my children do it, but I'd be absolutely— God knows what I put my mother through. Gosh, I'm sure it's the best education. Oh yeah, oh, oh, completely. Um, I feel very sorry for people at the moment who are not being able to kind of have that rite of passage and go traveling. It used to be a thing, didn't it? You know, everybody would go off traveling before university or after university before they get a job, and none of them have been able to do it, and they probably won't for another couple of years. I think it's an absolute tragedy, this poor generation of school children have really, really suffered much more than anybody else. Yeah, they really have. Although somebody said to me— I interviewed somebody about their psychology book, and she gave me some fantastic advice. And I was saying, listen, I think it's horrible for the kids that they've missed out on so much, so much of what we would class as a rite of passage. And she said, yes, but they have had to learn to adapt and to get through a pandemic, and they've had to learn how to do things completely differently and to be taken out of their comfort zone, and they've excelled at that. So where it's been taken away in one area, it's excelled in another, and eventually it will just meet in the middle. As long as they can catch up with their education, I'd agree with that. Uh, yes, um, and I think that's a that's the thing, there's not everybody has had the same experience because some people were a lot more, um, okay with the homeschooling. Yes, yes, that's true. But, um, and we, we kind of touched on before that you said that you'd actually written, um, a couple of books that you haven't published. Now you said that one of your, one of your children said that it's one of the best books they've ever read. Why would you not publish that? Why would you not share that with us? That sounds something I want to read. I don't know, I must say, having gone through all this hoopla getting a book published and dealing with it, it's not the greatest, greatest thing one can do. But I, I, yes, you're probably right, I will look at it. Brilliant. I wrote it a long time ago and it's, it hasn't dated, it hasn't dated. So it's a very sort of rather charming love story. Oh, I like the idea of that. Well, it seems like you do know about love stories. Yes, I think I do. I must say, writing about love did— it was very therapeutic, it was a very lovely experience. I enjoyed that bit very much. I can imagine. And just before we finish for today, you said that it was quite interesting getting published. What challenges did you come across? Well, after America, I really didn't do very much at all. And just a friend introduced me to this publisher and then he took it on, he loved it, so that was that. I just couldn't take any more after America, I thought this is rubbish, it's no way to live at all, I just want to get on with my life. So I'm very happy with what I've got and it's there for all to see. And by the way, my daughter did the design of the COVID which I'm very proud of. I love it, it's It's so simplistic, we don't need it to be busy because there's enough going on inside it as well. And just, just for everybody, so they can go and check out the book, if they go on to johndbieber.co.uk and they can find out everything about you, and they can, uh, there's links on there for them to be able to go and buy the book and find out a little bit more about you. Yes, thank you, it's really an honor. And that's the prime source at the moment. Yes, yes, it is indeed. It's a fantastic book, John, I've loved reading it, and it does look fantastic but a little bit more dog-eared now because I've been turning pages left, right, and centre because I want to— But that's how every book should look, isn't it? Yeah, doesn't it make you sad when you see these pristine books? Yes, yes. They should look completely loved and read over and over again. That's the answer, that's the thing. So I hope that people will feel that my love is worthy of that. That would be a great joy. Well, thank you so much for joining us here on Get Booked for Men's and Women's radio station. Best of luck with the book. Everybody go out and buy it and go and check out the website at John T. Bebam. And thank you so much for joining us. It's been lovely chatting to you. Thank you, Hazel. I enjoyed it Very much. Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and you've been listening to Get Booked, the women's and men's radio station opening discussions and offering support by the incredible writing community out there. Come and join us, get involved. And if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked. And on our SoundCloud. You can also pop over to my website hazelbutterfield.com where I've got numerous book reviews, and I've made it so easy for you to buy the books. You just got to click and it'll take you all the way through there. And, uh, please do get in touch with me at hazel@womensradiostation.com if you want to be featured on the show, or maybe you're a book blogger and you want to talk to us about some of the books that you've been reading. Please do get in touch, spread the love, and thank you so much for listening. Next week on Get Booked, we're going to be chatting to the London-based charity INS, which stands for Integrated Neurological Services. We're going to be speaking to their creative writing group who have created a book to help them raise funds, as it's been increasingly hard for people to raise money during COVID and lockdown. And here's a little snippet of what you can expect. And all you see, Hazel, is this tail, a black tail. Quite spooky, actually. Lovely. I did have, um, there was at one point, um, my cat and my dog were both on me, and I had like a dog 'house face here and like the cat's tail was coming around the side. I think I read somewhere about 6 months ago that everyone was so bored of Zooms in terms of work calls and constantly there, it's just here, and all people were doing was having a look at their kitchens or getting excited about seeing a random cat or dog and the highlight of people's day was whether somebody had an animal. I mean If they had like a lizard or something like that, then your week was made, wasn't it? Our dog doesn't like the camera, but unfortunately he's with the vet because he's suffering extreme pain. He was crying through the night. So what's your dog's name, Joe? Buster. He's a chocolate Labrador. Oh, one of my first ever rescue dogs was called Buster. Wasn't a chocolate Labrador, he was He's more of a Heinz 57, but you know, I've got quite a few friends who are chocolate Labradors. I have more dog friends than I have human friends. I quite like dogs, they're less judgy. My cat's very judgy. Our dog travelled with us from Australia. Oh wow, I like a well-travelled dog as well. And Karen, you're right, cats are very, very judgy. They're the complete opposite of dogs, which is, you know, I don't know, I sense it without feeling it. I walk into a room and I can almost feel it, it's tangible, the disdain with which she's holding me that day. And I thought, and I can't see it, then there she is! So it was real after all, yes, she was. Have you done my dinner yet? Yes, I've got that filthy stuff you gave me last night with bits in it. That's brilliant. Does anybody have any questions for me? I have. You may already have mentioned it. I don't know how many you've read of the stories. I think you kind of did say, were you surprised by them? Did you think, my God,