Hello, this is Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield and I absolutely love doing this show, opening discussions and offering support via the incredible writing community out there. Come and join us, get involved, and if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on on our SoundCloud. Today we have such an incredible show for you. Mum rage, hmm, it's a real thing, and many of us are struggling with unspoken anger. Mother of two, Christelle Hayes, author of the new book Angry Mother, Assertive Mother: From Maternal Anger to Radical Repair, reviews the mother's role and gives techniques to control and use maternal anger in a constructive way, and also how to practice restorative compassion and self-care, especially after bouts of anger. Now, as I've devoured this book, I have been waxing lyrical about it to my friends. It's so important to mums to have this, as motherhood and the emotions it can ignite can be isolating enough. And I just think knowledge is power. I wholeheartedly recommend this book, even if you're not a mother. Maybe it's something you can read and enjoy to just understand the emotions that mothers have to go through. Maybe it can help your own mother or a friend or just anybody on the street that you come across, or maybe a work colleague. It's a fantastic book, and I cannot wait to get into a good old conversation. Christelle, thank you for joining us here on Get Booked. Hello, hi, thank you for having me. You're very welcome. Now, as I said in the intro, I have been devouring this book, and I've been very cautious about friends of mine that I've said, "Hey, you know, I've read this book and I think it might be really helpful for you." And it's that line between wanting to share something you've come across and kind of insinuating that possibly they have a little bit of maternal anger. And the thing is, we need to destigmatize it because everybody has— well, most parents and especially mothers do get maternal anger, but it's what we do with it and understanding it that is key, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, um, that I'm trying to really say in the book is that, um, all mothers are going to be feeling angry. All women have anger. It's a, it's a human emotion that we all experience, and there's no shame in, in saying, oh, I have maternal anger. Well, I, in my opinion, I don't think there should be that any stigma around it. It should be something we can all talk about. Yeah, and the thing is, people are scared. They feel like they're— I mean, half the time maternal anger comes from feeling like a failure, or you're not doing things right, or you're feeling anxious about something. So then to go a step further and to admit it to other people as to why you're feeling that way, it is, it's very— it's a hard concept to kind of get your head around, especially when you're knackered, quite frankly. I think, yeah, I think so. I think that when you admit that you are angry as a mother, you're admitting a lot of other things as well, like what you just said. You're, you're admitting that you feel like you failed, you've lost control. You're admitting that as a mother there was a moment when you did feel like a failure, and I think that's where the shame, the stigma comes in, is sort of what the anger is then telling people or telling that mother. Well, yeah, and the thing is, one of the points in the book is, is it okay to be an angry mum? And as I was reading the book, I used to feel extremely embarrassed about how angry I would get, and not necessarily in front of my children, you know. I mean, I tell some of my friends who have just become mums and they're going, wow, nobody told me it would be this hard. I say, well, you know, You know, when I had my second child, I once drove off into the far corner of a Sainsbury's car park and just screamed and then drove back home again. It's just, it's a complete cacophony of emotions, but we need to find out what's a good level and how we can make it work for us and understand why we're angry instead of just thinking we're failing. We need to understand what is going on within ourselves so that we can use it to our advantage or make it work for us? Yeah, I think that it's very easy for women, for mothers, especially my experience, that when you have that feeling of anger, that you associate that with some kind of failure. And I sort of wanted to challenge that and help mums Because that was a challenge that I had when I became a mum, sort of how much anger is it okay to feel and express around your children? And why am I suddenly feeling so angry? And what is that right level? Is it okay for mums to be screaming in car parks, or what else can they do? Yeah. I mean, we've all been there, and I've seen some of my friends before they've had children where they see a mum kind of losing it in the supermarket. Street, and I'm sitting there going, babe, just you wait until you're at that stage, you'll understand it a little bit more. And it's quite hard when you've, you kind of have lost it, and God forbid when you've lost it in front of other people. But also I've seen those knowing looks, especially in playgrounds, when somebody's lost it and one of the other parents have gone, yeah, do you want to get you a cup of tea, love? Complete strangers, and it's that kind of nice feeling of coming together, and I think this is this this is the book that is going to help people appreciate that we do all get it. We get different levels, we have to deal with it in different ways, we're all different kind of people, but if we actually acknowledge that it does happen, then there's a lot less shame, and if we feel less shame, we can actually manage what's happening within ourselves so much more productively. Yeah, no, I agree, and I think that's the sort of the vibe that I wanted to get from the book was so when someone read the book, they felt like they were sitting with friends having a chat about their anger and their experience, and everyone feels supported, and like they're all sitting around having a cup of tea kind of feeling. Yeah, yeah. And it's important to kind of find people that are possibly a little bit more similar to you as well. I think it's fantastic for all these mothers that find the right NCT group where they're all doing things at the same stage, but sometimes it doesn't work, and other times it's absolutely fantastic. But, you know, possibly if your group isn't working for you there's always somebody out there who is similar to you or has a similar kind of lifestyle or way of raising children. It's so important to kind of find that. I do have a couple of friends who I thought were struggling, and you know, they had a baby during the pandemic, so they didn't get to do NCT classes, nor did they get to go to the mother and baby groups because there weren't any running. And I kind of said, I think it's really important. It's like, oh, the whole mummy thing, it's not really me. I said, oh, you'd be and, you know, now she's out meeting up in pubs and chatting away, and she's absolutely loving it. And just having that support network, people who are going through the same things as you, is incredible, isn't it? Yeah, it is really, really important. I didn't realise how much. I mean, when I think I had— when I had my first child, I didn't— I went to an NCT group, and I really gelled with a few of the mums there. And it's just finding that sort of group of mums who who are on your wavelength, who you can really— when they tell you about their experiences, you sort of really resonate with each other and can give each other support without being judgmental or comparing. And, you know, and, and then I had my second child during the pandemic, so I didn't have that access to baby groups, and I felt the difference. It was, it was such a difference. And yeah, and I, I just think it's It's at a time where it's hard for dads as well, and I'm not completely taking that away from them. But on top of it, depends on whether you're nursing or whether you aren't, it's the element of work and friends and tired and hormones. And if you are with a partner, you know, it's, am I still giving him enough attention, or am I doing this right, or he's not understanding me. And there's so many different levels when you're already hormonal that, you know, it's adding to why we can be highly strong or anxious or angry. Um, and there's elements of what's happened during pregnancy and birth and after birth that can make you feel angry. You know, maybe you didn't get to have the birth you wanted to have, or maybe you're just annoyed that you can't afford to take more time off, or maybe you're angry because you want to get back to work soon. Everybody's different, and there are so many different areas And what I think about this book, as I was reading it, it's so open-minded. There's, there's so many different examples that you give and some, so many different levels of advice that people can just adapt the advice to what suits them, their personality, their situation, their finances. And I really found that quite helpful. And I, I do hope as many people as possible do get hold of this. Have you actually thought about putting it certain maternity wards and trying to speak to people and seeing if you can just kind of leave them there? I have actually contacted a few midwives and doctors to see if they can sort of put it into waiting rooms and wards and stuff. I think that would be really, really useful, because I think what was important for me was to write something which didn't make assumptions that every woman had— every mother has a supportive partner, supportive their own mother is supportive, they have finances for a nanny, or, you know, I was reading books where it was like, oh, if you're feeling a bit stressed out, then like go on holiday. But like, not every woman has that as an option for them. Not everyone can leave their baby with their mother, with their, with the grandparents. And I wanted to be really careful not to make those assumptions. Well, do you know what? Interestingly, I know somebody who had— she was a nanny, a fantastic nanny, I mean literally she was like the child whisperer, and she lived in a beautiful house, husband was absolutely fantastic, she'll even, you know, test it now, he is brilliant in every single way, supportive family, supportive friends, you name it, happy as Larry, and she got postnatal depression, and it's not necessarily to do with your circumstances. Sometimes it's just a hormonal imbalance, or, you know, it's genetics. And so just because you shouldn't get it doesn't mean that you're not going to get it. And obviously postnatal depression is not the same as maternal anger, but there's a lot of links and similarities, aren't there? I think with— well, I think depression, you know, of course women are going to get depressed after they have a baby, and that anger, if it's not expressed, it can turn inward, which is what depression can be, is just that inward stuck anger. Um, and, and I think that's another issue actually, it's really important that you just mentioned that a lot of women think, well, I don't, I don't have a right to feel angry or feel depressed or feel like I'm struggling because I have all this support, I have this, all these things, and I therefore I shouldn't be struggling. But of course you're still going to struggle women can have a great setup around them and still get maternal anger. There's a section where I've turned the page over because I really wanted to read this. It's on page 17, so right at the beginning, but I read this a couple of times and I really, I really love the way you phrase this. If you don't mind, I'm going to just read it briefly. Oh no, not at all. Anger shows up when we are hurt and gives us the strength, the energy, and the power to assert ourselves and make necessary changes. Anger shows up when we're experiencing challenging situations. Motherhood is challenging, so anger may well show up here. It does so in many different ways: internal, external, slow and heavy, or quick and energetic. Anger may be a heavy, suffocating feeling behind our depression and sadness, or it may show up in our anxiety. Anger shows up when we are in a rage, shouting and being violent, toxic and destructive. Rage is anger being disrespectful. Sometimes we need rage to push back against hurt and abuse, but being on the receiving end of rage can be damaging, confusing, and painful, even traumatic. I like the way it describes the different elements there, and I thought that was beautifully put. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think anger, it's just the more you sort of think, talk to women about anger, and the more you write about it, the more you, you think, you realize how complex it is. Well, it's also— it is frustration as well, isn't it? Um, yeah, women do like to minimize their feelings, and we keep on minimizing them. That's so, so much so that people then think, oh, they're fine, because they keep on saying, oh, it's nothing, I'll get over it. That's page 24. I'm probably overreacting. If I tell them I'm angry, it'll only cause an argument, and it won't change anyway. Then we get frustrated because we're not being listen to for what we're saying. You know, it's a bit like saying, "I'm fine," and wondering why nobody's understanding why we're upset. But we do, we minimize things, and we need to start being a little bit more open and honest and finding an outlet rather than just trying to deal with ourselves, because that just— the more you bury it deep down, it's going to come out eventually. And it will more likely come out instead of in a huge argument, it'll come out when you I don't know, drop something on the floor which really doesn't matter. It kind of— and it'll be disproportionate, won't it? And that's when it all gets a little bit out of hand. Yeah, absolutely. I think that what can happen is if we, if, if we are to dismiss our anger or minimize it and not acknowledge it, um, and then it just will just come bursting out in this disproportionate way. Which can cause, you know, it can cause damage, it can cause disruption, and for all sorts of reasons. And so if we, if we can really acknowledge our anger and recognize it for what it is and express it in the moment because we feel valid, we feel validated, we feel entitled— sorry— to express it, then then it will come out, won't come out in that sort of rageful, toxic way. It's just about trying to manage it in the best way possible. And again, you know, this book is about getting yourself to understand what's happening within yourself so that you can address it. You know, the more we know about ourselves, the more we can help ourselves to do things better. Now, there is a section actually on page 32 about dealing with neurodiverse children as well, children with special educational needs and disabilities. Now, I had a friend who was always quite angry and tired and frustrated. She had, she had a child that she was raising on her own, which can quite often be the case because of the stressful elements of dealing with that kind of diverse situation. And she just said, trying to find out information is ridiculous. And that was making her angry because she was constantly tired and nobody would give her a proper answer. So we set up a podcast called Send Me the Wine where we basically tackled a subject each week with a bottle of wine and we encouraged the mothers to just have a quick drink with us and have a bit of a giggle while we talked about really sensible and interesting subjects like EHCPs and, you know, ways to be able to still go out with your friends, you know, when your children has particular SEND issues. It was quite interesting because the idea was, you know, you relax on an evening, have a bit of a giggle and learn something, and it was to kind of decrease the anger and take the hard element out of finding information. So there's lots of different ways out there, aren't there, to address whatever issues you might be having to face as a mother? Yeah, yeah, I think that sounds like a brilliant podcast, what you just described there. I think it's, you know, sitting around and having a chat and again normalising normalizing it and having that release. And but also just addressing and talking about the serious stuff around motherhood that doesn't, you know, it doesn't really get addressed enough. And a lot of mothers feel like they're on their own trying to fight these, these battles with, you know, the council or with schools or whatever it is that they're battling with. And again, that doesn't get— I don't think that gets talked about enough. So it's almost like it's not happening, but it is happening. Yeah, and it's just another thing to add to the list of finances. Yeah, adding something else into your world, being exhausted, feeling guilt, feeling shame, trying to make sure that you still see your friends because you actually need your friends, but then you're too exhausted today. When it's just a complete— it's an absolute clusterfudge is the best way I can put it. Um, and you know, mothers You've done a section on mothers in conflict as well, haven't you? On page 114? Let's have a look. Yeah. Do you want to explain to our listeners what mothers in conflict is about? Yeah, I kind of thought, what if I'm writing about anger, and if I'm encouraging women to express why they're angry, then they're gonna inevitably get into some kind of conflict, and almost of how to handle that, manage that conflict. Conflict. Because again, when you've had a baby, you're, you're in a, you're in a certain space, and you might maybe previously been able to handle conflict really well, but you might just need a bit of information. And I want to just give some information to mums about the different ways we can enter into conflict. And I talk about the drama triangle and how when we are in conflict, sometimes we can slip into certain roles and then what we're doing in that role, and then how we can then step out of that and handle conflict differently so things get resolved. The victim, the rescuer, and the persecutor, is that right? Yeah, yeah. So the victim is sort of when you're in that— I mean, it's very simplistic, I know it's more complex than that, but when you're in the victim role, you're sort of saying like, oh, poor me, everyone's against me, and And so just to notice that if you're having a conversation with your partner or with your child, like, have you gone into that role? Um, again, rescuers— but it's very easy for women, for mums, to rescue their children or rescue their partner, but at the detriment of them and their own needs. Um, and then persecutors, we need to slip into that kind of blaming role. It's like, it's all your fault. Um, you know, not taking responsibility and that isn't always helpful. So how is your anger playing, showing up when you're in those roles? And it's identifying what roles you're taking because sometimes it's counterproductive, isn't it? Because you're sometimes constantly making yourself the rescuer, then wondering why nobody's trying to rescue you. And identifying who you are and the role you're playing can help you possibly change the dynamics that are clearly not working within your home setting. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, that, that, yeah, you, you slip into these roles really easily and not even realize you're doing it. And then you don't realize that the reason why you're getting so, so angry, angry and angry, is because you're, as you say, you could be rescuing everyone in the household, waiting for your own needs to be met, waiting for yourself to be rescued, and you don't even realize that's what's going on. It's just taking, being able to take a step back and saying, identifying what role am I playing in this and what role, roles am I putting other people into? Am I making someone a victim or am I making somebody a persecutor? Or, um, and it's, it's helped me. The drama triangle has helped me in my own relationships. Um, and yeah, so I thought that giving that, sharing that information could help other mothers. Yeah, we do need to definitely embark on a bit of introspection and see how we can actually help ourselves, as well as making sure that we're being honest with people about how they can help us as well. And we do tend to kind of just think, oh, you know, I'll sort it out myself, things will pass. And you know what, things very rarely do pass. They just get very deeper and deeper until they explode at a different point. I was laughing at one bit where because there's so much in this book that resonated with me. I'm a mother of two children, very similar to yourself. My children are a bit older. I'm a single mum, so they've just lived with me pretty much for the last 8 years or so. And it was the section where we're talking about things that we know will calm us or can help us appreciate our surroundings. And I do know that you quite often say to people, you can get 5-minute break, it's only 5 minutes, the kids are going to be fine for 5 minutes, you know, put them in front of the telly or possibly while they're eating their breakfast or something like that. And I do remember I used to try and start meditating and doing a bit of mindfulness when I was really struggling with my maternal anger and I just thought I just need 5 or 10 minutes to myself. And I don't know what it is about kids, but when they think you're trying to relax and do something quiet, they come knocking on that door, don't they? It doesn't matter, they can ignore you for, you know, a good half an hour, an hour, they can be doing anything else. The second you try and do something for yourself, they're all over you, aren't they? Yeah, they can sense it. I mean, oh my God, every time. I mean, the amount of times I've just nipped to the loo and they're like knocking on the door. I just sat down on the sofa. I like, we'll say, oh, do you, do you need a drink or do you need a snack, or are you all— everyone's content? Okay, I'll sit on the sofa. And then, oh, I need some milk, or can you put this on, or can I get this? And it's like, why, why did you wait till I sat down? I don't know what it is, it's like magic. They, they are so incredibly psychic when you're trying to have 5 minutes. And I did I mean, as I said, the book resonated with me. I did suffer with a bit of maternal anger. I say a bit, that's probably not that honest, quite a lot. And I remember I'd get to a stage and the kids would say, "Oh, we don't like it when you get angry." I said, "Well then, when I ask for 5 minutes, give me 5 minutes. It's not that much, you know. I just want that 5 minutes to just completely decompress and then I won't lose it as much." And we also use this as a learning curve and I'd say, you know, Yeah, I do lose it with you sometimes. Sometimes it's my fault, sometimes it's a joint effort, and sometimes you guys are just not behaving the way that you are supposed to. But at the end of the day, if you lose your temper, no matter whose fault it is, no matter what the scenario, you apologize, you explain why, and you communicate. And to be honest, I found that me having sections of anger towards my children has helped them appreciate that, you know, it is there, it's something real, and we just have to learn to deal with anger. And if my kids get angry and they lose it either with me or with each other or something I say, the most important thing is you apologize and you explain what the issue is. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think that's all about sort of modeling healthy anger, or just allowing anger to be, be in the relationship. A lot of the women I spoke to said that things— the reason why they struggle with their own anger as mothers, mothers, is because growing up their mother never showed any anger at all. But it was there, but in a more sort of silent, you know, inward way. And, and, and so they sort of didn't know how to be angry around their children because because they didn't have that shown to them when they were growing up. And in the same way, if their child showed anger, it would, it would really freak them out because they'll be like, anger shouldn't be expressed, and here we are. It's— and what do we do? But I think what I've learned myself is, you know, I get, I get angry and I try to explain it So it doesn't seem really out of the blue, like a shock. And it's this like shocking thing that happens and it never gets spoken about and then brushed under the carpet. I'm not sure that's really nice for children to grow up around. If I get— of course I get angry. For me, it's with bedtime. I'm like desperate for them to go to sleep just so I can have a few hours to myself or with my partner, you know, with my husband and just relax. It's like my time and they're kind of encroaching on it by not going to sleep. And I find that really hard, and that's when I really struggle to stay calm. And sometimes I will get cross, and then my son doesn't like it. He'll say, "Mummy," he always says, "Mummy, I want you to be happy." And I'm like, "Well, I'm not happy right now. I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling frustrated. I need you to go to sleep, and I need to have a break." And, you know, trying to explain that if I get this rest, then I won't be angry, but it's hard for a child to understand that. They just want a mum to be happy and there all the time, and it's not always possible. And it's unrealistic as well. But no, the amount of times— if I'd been given a pound for every time I'd said, well, if you want me to stay calm and happy, then maybe, you know, put the toilet seat down after you, pick your towel up when you've come out of the bath. I mean, we're quite a high sarcastic family as well. But you know, it's— we need each other to be able to be allowed to be real as well. I would much prefer someone to get possibly angry with me rather than passive aggression and then turn around and say, I don't know if I went over the top or not, but this is just what's been going on, and just explain it. You go, right, yeah, get it. I've had an explanation. Also, it makes me feel a bit more comfortable that I don't have to worry about being disingenuous with you either. I can actually be honest about how I'm feeling because honesty is the key to a healthy relationship. Yeah, I don't like passive-aggressive. I find it really sets me on edge. I think it's really important to, if you can, to try and just be more direct with what's behind the anger and just being more open and honest with it. And like you say, maybe it's a bit over the top and maybe next time I won't express it with such force or with different language, but at least— but when it comes out as passive-aggressive, then it's just confusing and then people are left hurt. Hurt, confused. Yeah, it causes a disconnect in the relationship. There are, and I don't want to talk about just like the negative elements. I mean, I do want people to understand that there are, it is out there, that, you know, a lot of people will experience maternal anger, but we can use it positively, can't we? You've got a fantastic section on the power of maternal anger, page 131. Can you explain to our listeners a little bit more about the concept of using maternal anger for good? Yeah, I, um, so I think maternal anger can be used for good if we have gone through, if we've really connected with our emotions and with what is behind our anger. And for example, a lot of the time I wonder if there's a maternal anger comes up when a need, a really important need, is not being met or a boundary is not being respected. And if you can figure out how to really connect with what's going on behind your anger, maybe it's because this need that I have has not been met, and then you use that to then get that need met. And it sounds really simple, but it's not. It's hard. And it's sort of using your anger to get what you want, to readdress balance, readdress when a balance becomes out of balance, and to reassert yourself in your identity. That's the word though, isn't it? Because, you know, historically women have not been assertive enough, and they see that as too pushy and possibly not accepted in society, whereas when we get angry we are assertive. So we need to find a way to harness that and use it constructively. Yeah, and I think women are getting more and more angrier and more and more assertive with their anger. I feel like there has been a shift. There is, and you can see it. And I, I was listening to a soundtrack the other day, um, what was I listening to? I think it was a Chicago soundtrack. And there's— I was noticing how a lot of the songs, there's so much anger women expressing their anger in the music. And I just loved it. I love it. I love hearing women angry and assertive. So I'm trying to sort of tap into that, that sense of anger. It's really hard though, isn't it? It's finding— it's yet another thing for women to master, the right level of assertiveness, the right level of anger. So yet again, it's something else we're adding to our arsenal, trying to, trying to master it, getting it wrong, then feeling the shame because we've done it wrong or we've not quite done it right for the right people or, you know, and sometimes it just depends on the mood you're in. You know, I can have exactly the same scenario play out 2 or 3 weeks apart from each other and completely make me feel different on 2 separate occasions. It's just where we are. And I think one of the fantastic things about books like this is helping us understand ourselves better. And the more we understand each other, and the more we understand ourselves, the better equipped we are to know how to deal with what we have to deal with, you know. Do we respond better by being honest or shutting ourselves away or writing things down? This is something that I absolutely think is fantastic. If you're— maybe if you don't have somebody or you don't feel in a position where you can assert yourself, or you don't— there just isn't the opportunity, you know. I find it quite cathartic just writing about it, writing about what you want to say. The frustration sometimes is because what's going on in our head is all muddled around in there, and our thoughts aren't ordered. And writing down what is happening is a fantastic process because it is hard sometimes for people to be honest, or maybe they're not blessed with having you know, friends, that they do feel comfortable enough describing what is potentially an alien feeling to them. Writing it down still helps order your thoughts. Yeah, I think I, I love writing things down, and I found, you know, the act of writing the book has really helped me with my, my own maternal anger. And I think that just writing keeps you kind of keeps you honest and it helps you to check in with what's going on day to day. It helps you sort of notice things like, when is it that I get more vulnerable to anger? Um, is it in the morning or is it at night? Um, and then, you know, how did I feel afterwards? What did I do next? And it just kind of keeps you on— as you say, your thoughts can get very jumbled and it sort of keeps you more on track with it and more connected again with that emotion. It's identifying what our triggers are. I mean, sometimes it can just be something as simple as don't look at Instagram before the kids are about to go to bed, because you see all these mothers start kind of professing this simple and easy Walton's life, and then you suddenly get angry that, you know, you're still trying to clear up the cornflakes off the side of the wall from that morning or whatnot, you know. So it's like 'Look at Instagram once I've gone to bed so you're not on edge,' or something like that. Or maybe cut certain things out of your— I mean, we're all on socials. It's how we actually get our information. It's how we connect with people, especially when we're so incredibly busy. But something so incredibly simple sometimes, making sure that, you know, you're hanging out your washing, not when you're ridiculously busy, or, you know, you put your washing on at the right time so it's not being ready to be hung out at a time when you're already ridiculously busy. It's just a little bit of thought and making sure that you're not triggering yourself when it could be a really simple fix. Yeah, and, and, you know, I fall into that trap all the time, and I've realized that, you know, for example, I, I really hate cooking and planning meals for kids. And, and I think a lot of that is that you go through all that trouble of cooking and planning, and they might not even want to eat it. And that's frustrating because then you think, oh, I've failed as a mother because they're not eating their broccoli. And you sort of forget that— yeah, and that, you know, you're making me like a bad mother now. Um, but you you forget that every single household with children are having that same sort of battle. And, um, so I do— when I'm cooking, I try and put on like calming music, relaxing music. I turn— if the TV's winding me up, I turn the TV down or turn it off so I don't have the sound of the CBeebies in the background. And if mess is triggering me and making me feel frustrated, because I think mess can, can be a big factor in anger. 100%. Yeah, so that chaos. And then, then I'll make that a priority before I do the next thing. I'm also really guilty of trying to do like 7 things at once and then doing them badly and then getting cross with myself. So I then like just do one thing at a time. My husband's always saying to me, like, you're doing that thing and now you're doing that thing, now you're doing that thing. Like, what are you doing? Just stop and just do one thing. Or maybe you could do it and then I wouldn't have to do it. I'm getting better at that. I'm getting better at that. I'm saying, hey, hold on a minute, you can you do this, can you do that? And I'm not feeling like I have to do everything in the room, you know. There is also that delegating and asking for help. Yeah, it's all right, I'll do it myself if you want a job doing doing properly, you do it yourself. It's all that ridiculousness, isn't it? Um, we sometimes are making it harder for ourselves, but we just need to learn to let go and then reaping the benefits somewhat. I just want to point our listeners over in the direction of your website, crystalhayestherapy.com, where there's lots of information on there and details of your online psychotherapy Therapy, and Molly Tells On Angry Mother. A little bit more about you is there on there as well. And I would like— I'd like to know, in terms of your therapy, what ways do you help your clients help repair their relationships after losing it with their kids or their partners due to anger, anxiety, maternal rage? So how do I help them with that? Yeah, what's the advice you give on how they can repair relationships when they've kind of lost it a little bit? I think compassion and connection and communication is really important. So don't get stuck in that guilt, and because I think it's easy to get stuck in that guilt, don't, and try and, try and be sort of approach it with more with more compassion and understanding of the situation that you're in and the reality of what, what you're dealing with. Having an understanding of sort of why that thing made you so angry, whether it's because of a value you hold, or— and repair is, but just again, is about having the confidence to communicate and be more— and holding space for the other, everyone else to communicate as well. Yes, yeah, because we sometimes forget that, you know, if we're all working together as a team, life can be a lot easier. But to work as a team, we need to listen to everybody's grievances and what everybody's wishes and wants are. Um, yeah, and I think that's, that's really important because I think women sometimes can feel like they're on their own and they're doing, bearing it all onto their shoulders and and just learning how to, yeah, how to work as a team. Yeah, it's so hard, yeah. I must say, if I'd have had this book 14 years ago, it would have been very helpful. My children are, one of them's 12 tomorrow and the other one's 15, and it's just, if I'd have known how much, how many other people were dealing with it and why it was happening, I could have done more about it and possibly been a bit easier on myself. Yeah, I hope mums can be easy on themselves. I think it's really important. I mean, again, I, um, you know, during the pandemic and raising two small children, I was finding myself getting angry all the time, and I always try and seek solace in books, and I wasn't reading anything that I resonated with. Um, and I started talking to mums about anger, and I think a lot of people were feeling angry because of the pandemic. So there was a lot of conversations about anger, why they were angry and how it was being expressed. And, and I just, yeah, I think it just seems an important topic. It's interesting that you say that you found solace in books because— and it sounds so ridiculous and so trivial, but I find solace in books. And I used to read on my commute into the studio in Covent Garden, which was a good kind of 45 minutes there, 45 minutes back, you know, to various other places that I would work. Again, I would read. And then when I had time, I would go and sit in a café and I would read. All the cafés which should— you can't read at home because there's always something going on. If it's not the dog, it's the kids, or the washing machine, the dishwasher, or the fact that you're too close to something that when you remember that you've got to do something, you might as well get up and do it because otherwise if you leave it, you're going to forget. And I really miss that headspace I got from being able to read, and I wasn't given that forum to do it because nobody was commuting because there were on furlough or working from home, or, you know, it was just— that was taken away from me, and that used to give me my kind of Ctrl+Alt+Delete. Yeah, and I think, yeah, I think the pandemic took away so much for people to process and have that headspace and take space for themselves. Yeah, I mean, there's very few people now who are back in the offices going, "Ugh, back in the office!" We're like, "Oh, brilliant!" get to get in the car for 20 minutes, get to go and commute, get to do this, get to do that, have a lunch break. Imagine that, it's incredible. It's done wonders for people's attitudes. I get the tube somewhere just so I can sit and read. It's quite funny actually, I've got a birthday coming up soon, and I did actually say this to an author I was speaking to last week, and 'Oh, what are you doing for your birthday?' I said, 'I'm gonna go and sit in a nice restaurant and read a book.' And it's actually gonna be my 40th. They're just going, 'All right, who with?' I'm like, 'No, no, no, no, no, this is my birthday. I'm gonna sit there, have a lovely meal, not speaking to anybody, and I'll read for about 2 hours, 2, 3 hours.' And that's what I want to do. Yes, the kids can take me out for dinner in the evening, but the day I've booked it off work I'm reading a book and I cannot wait. Yeah, oh, that sounds wonderful. It really does, doesn't it? Have you chosen your book? Well, I'm currently reading Chloe Ashby's Wet Paint, but I'm storming through it because it's so fantastic, so I think that's already going to be finished. So I've got a couple on my TBRs that I'm going to shove to the top of the list just in case. That's the thing, all these fantastic books, and you suddenly go, but you're going to be finished before my special date with myself. So I do have a couple of other ones that I am— there's 30 Things I Love About Myself. Have you heard about that? No, that's no. Oh, it's fantastic. Well, I've heard the reviews. Is supposed to be absolutely fantastic. So I think it's probably going to be that one because it's uplifting and it's a positivity just about ourselves. Uh, let me just— yeah, I'll have a look it up. I'll definitely look that one up. Uh, I would, um, 30 Things I Love About Myself. There you go. It is by Radhiki Sanghani. And okay, yeah, are you ready for a brand new you? A gloriously uplifting novel for anyone who has ever had a self worth a wobble. So I like things like that where it just kind of goes, you know, brilliant, bring it on, you're good at this, and you kind of sit there going, I'm gonna rule the world! But you know what, that's something that I know ignites me, and I know if I get access to that, it helps with my anxiety and my possible anger because I'm doing something that's— well, reading is self-care. It's giving yourself space and time and helping you appreciate, learn. And, you know, for people to understand what it is, whether it's just music, whether it's dancing, find out what it is that is gonna reset you because it's such a powerful tool. Absolutely. And for me, it's reading. And, you know, like what you said about all sleep, you know, it does reset you and it does— it is a I just find it really cathartic. So it's good. And reading women being angry, I find that really cathartic as well. I read a book, The Body's Not an Apology, and that was a fabulous book where a woman's talking about her anger towards people's attitudes towards the body, the female body. And, but yeah, I think, you know, reading's not your thing, then find out what is your thing. I've just gone on to thebodyisnotanapology.com, so I'm going to go and check that out. I love this because I like what Get Booked is about, you know, exploring the books that are out there and having a chat to the authors, but I love hearing about what they've loved as well, so that, you know, I'm like, yeah, I'll give you recommendations, but what are your recommendations? What should I be reading? And so something that I like to do here on Get Booked is to ask our authors for 3 top top tips on well-being, 3 things that you go to that you just think, yeah, that'll keep me on an even keel. What would they be for you? Oh, I think, like, as we were talking before, just about, um, getting some space for myself to do some reading, um, and, and if I don't have time to get into a book, what I find really good for my own mental well-being is just watching comedy clips. On YouTube, just like a 3-minute Michael McIntyre, just really can be great. Getting outside, going, you know, just the usual, going for a walk, being around nature, just reconnecting with yourself in that way. And I, I'm really, I love swimming, so for me, I try and go swimming at least once a week and and just use that time to, you know, stay in my own head and think through my thoughts and just take that space. Swimming is amazing for mental health, I think. Do you know what I think is good about swimming? And it annoys me that I'm not getting to do it as much. There is no opportunity to do anything else at the same time because, you know, if you're lifting weights or going for a run, you can be listening to podcast at the same time or chatting to somebody who's gone with you. Swimming, all you can do is think and get on with it. It's not another one of those multitasking things, you know. Sometimes, you know, when I'm on the treadmill at the gym, I can be reading at the same time, responding to emails, you name it. And swimming is complete escapism for me. Yeah, absolutely. And as I must massively multitasker, I think that swimming is really important for me because it means I'm just doing one thing. And, um, I've— yeah, absolutely. Now, if you're a fan of like the short comedy clips, because I, I like to do this as well, it's a nice little distraction, it's something you don't have to commit too much time to, is I love SNL, Saturday Night Live. Their clips are so ridiculous because they're kind of— it's a bit, it's a bit kind of Mock the Week-esque but American, where they take the mickey out of whatever's happening in society and in politics, but just ridiculously kind of off-the-cuff humor. And they have a different host each week, so, you know, you'll have your Tom Hanks or your Rami Malek and whatnot. And it's— I don't know if you're a fan of SNL, but it's definitely very funny. It's up there. I do like it. Yeah, it's very funny. Yeah. Oh, I see. Have you come across it then? Have you Yeah, yeah, yeah, brilliant. And you mentioned Mock the Week, that's a big one that we watch a lot at our house, Mock the Week, once the kids are in bed. Yeah, it's, um, I'm very lucky that there's a comedy club really close to where I live and it's been going for 20-odd years and they get some of the best people in and every, you know, Saturday night, £20, 3 hours, you're completely entertained, absolutely love it. And you come away laughing, which is like a little drug within itself. It's just comedy. If it works for you, very, very lucky. Now, something else I do also like to ask all my guests here for Get Booked, women's and men's radio station, is who do you admire in the public eye? Who do you kind of think, oh, do you know what, you make me feel good about myself, or you're saying some sensible things? Is it somebody that really hits the spot for you? Well, it's an interesting question. I mean, who do I admire? I— there are certain mums that I follow on social media that I really, I really like how they talk about motherhood. And, um, the Unmumsy Mum Sarah Turner. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I really like how she— I've read her books and I read her posts, and I think there's something very real about her, very— she's not afraid to show her vulnerability as a mum and the reality of it without being too over the top in either direction. And I think she— yeah, how she sort of portrays motherhood, I really admire. And she just sort of started out just by talking about it on a blog and then just kind of got all these people listening to her and tuning into her, and she's sort of grown this sort of following, and I kind of admire that. Yeah, it's offering up an alternative as well, isn't it? Yeah, alternative to the standard narratives you get out there on social media. Yeah, oh brilliant! And is there any other books that you're reading at the moment that you're just thinking, "Oh, I am loving this"? I want to get back into reading Brené Brown. I think she's got a new book out. I was actually just looking at her on Amazon. And yeah, I mean, I've got so many books on the go, it's quite ridiculous really. I tend to do 3 at the same time. Yeah, and I read a really good novel over Christmas that I just loved, um, The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Have you read that? I haven't, but it's on my, it's on my, um, Amazon shopping list. Take that book on your date on your 40th. It's such a brilliant book about relationships marriage and sexuality. Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah, I love that. Well, do you know what? We're running out of time. We've been gassing away like no one's business, and I want to just squeeze in reading a little bit of a segment of your first chapter for our listeners as well. I just want to remind people as well to pop on to crystalhazetherapy.com where they can find out so much more about you and about the book and Angry Mother, Assertive Mother: From Maternal Anger to Radical Repair. Thank you so much for chatting to us. Oh no, but thank you for having me. It's been, it's been lovely to chat. And will you come back on the show when you do your next book? Yeah, I would love to, absolutely. Have you already got something slightly in the works? Is there a little title that you could whet our appetite with? Well, it turns out I've got a lot more to say about anger, so I'm thinking about writing about women and anger in general. And how our relationship with anger has changed over our life. So sort of angry women. Brilliant, I love that because then it doesn't just kind of single out people, women who are not mothers, because I think it's something that does need to be addressed and we need to kind of learn how to be more assertive without feeling as if we're out of our comfort zone. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the general idea. Yeah, I love that. I can't wait. Well, please do let us know when that comes out. We'll have you back on the show. That'll be fantastic. Fantastic. Thank you. Thank you so much, Crystal, for joining us here on Get Booked for Women's and Men's radio station. And here is a little snippet of the book we've been discussing today, Angry Mother 'Asserted Mother: From Maternal Anger to Radical Repair' by this week's guest, Christel Hayes. I never wanted to be an angry mother. I never wanted to feel rage around my children. I'd spent my life afraid of anger and trying not to be an angry person. For me, angry people were those who had lost control and potentially dangerous. I hadn't realized that anger and rage were different. All I knew was that anger was unsafe and I didn't want to be an unsafe mother. I was shocked to discover that motherhood rendered me angry, frustrated, and impatient, all the qualities that I felt were the opposite of being a good mother. This side of myself bursting out blindsided me, uncomfortable and nauseous. I raged when pregnant. I fumed in John Lewis when a woman told me not to bother buying a bottle because breastfeeding is much better for a baby. Why can't she mind her own business? I thought to myself. I was frustrated when a healthcare professional didn't take my fears about the neonatal intensive care unit seriously. I was shocked and hurt when my first baby was born via emergency C-section and the midwife called me a small child who didn't like pain. I raged when I saw my baby in the NICU surrounded by sick babies. I raged at the powerlessness I felt at being unable to take him home with me, that I couldn't breastfeed him, and that I couldn't settle him while he was attached to the tubes. I rolled my eyes when the next-door neighbor expressed my concern about who would look after my baby when I went back to work. "Oh, I'll let him fend for himself, he is after all 9 months old." I raged when I was woken up from a deep sleep by a crying baby once again. I raged at people who were sleeping more than me. I raged at obnoxious noises from cartoons and plastic toys, the constant interruptions, the perpetual laundry, my toddler who wouldn't sleep, my husband who did sleep, the constant mess, my colleagues progressing in their careers while I remained stagnant. I raged at all of this. I kept, I kept all this burning rage inside and tried hard to be the calm, nurturing, loving presence that a mother ought to be, the mother I wanted to be. Why was I feeling so much rage? What was I doing wrong? Why wasn't I enjoying this? Motherhood was more complex than I'd realized. I loved being a mother. I remember staring at my sleeping baby in the middle of the night and grinning until my cheeks hurt. I felt so proud of my baby. I was excited to walk around the park with him in his pram. I proudly took him to the local library and to the playground. I delighted in his ability to go down a slide and take take his first steps. I listened to all the nursery rhymes. I'd learnt all the actions and words to the songs. I wound the bobbin up, I hopped like hop hop hoppity hop, and I zoom zoom zoomed. I listened to all the advice and tried to take it on board, even though much of it was conflicting and different to what my own mother was advising. I discovered that the older generation were told different things to what are told today. I learnt the delicate balance of listening to outdated advice without offending the advice giver who was only trying to help. I blended purees and researched toys and milestones. I chatted to new mum friends and we shared our struggles and comedy moments over coffee and banana cake. I eagerly waited for the next chapter in my child's life. I loved my child and our relationship. I was so proud of him and loved loved him for simply existing. However, this joyful energy was mixed with a darker, angrier energy. My emotions felt constantly heightened. I experienced everything in high definition. Intense joy, but extreme anxiety, fear, and anger. Why did nobody warn me about this? Why wasn't this mentioned or taken seriously by healthcare professionals? I appreciate that our bodies go through immense changes when we become mothers, and hormonal shifts change how we experience our emotions. But it felt more profound than hormones. It felt more than sleep deprivation. The anger felt like it was coming from a deep place inside of me. Suddenly I was invisible. I didn't matter. My freedom and my choices were not being respected. Myself and identity were disappearing. When my second baby was born, the rage intensified and was harder to contain. Then the COVID-19 pandemic happened and we were all thrown into lockdown. The pandemic took all my usual mother methods of self-care away and left me feeling unsupported. I was too overwhelmed to find new ways to stay calm and grounded. I started drowning and I became angrier and angrier. I refused to make space for my anger because I did not want to be an angry mother. Being a therapist, I knew the value of therapy and would have loved weekly sessions with a compassionate therapist, but when did I even have the time? The internal battle was intense. Even with all the skills and tools as a therapist, I couldn't resolve this anger on my own.