Get Booked – Deborah Stone, Me & My Shadow 240122

Hello, you're listening to Get Booked with me, Hazel Butterfield, for women's and men's radio station. Welcome to today's show. Now, Get Booked is all about talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different guest each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. Now, this week we have the author Deborah Stone with her latest book, Me and My Shadow. When the line between truth and lies blur— imagine being flooded with shame, unworthiness, and paranoia. Each day you wake up to a life that feels just beyond the reach of your control. No matter how many attempts you make to move forward, you are met repeatedly with betrayal and rejection from your family, the very people who are supposed to love you the most. This is the reality for Rachel. Since childhood, all she has ever desired is to be loved, to be seen, to be accepted, yet she faces one disappointment after another. This is the second novel from Deborah Stone, the award-winning author of What's Left Unsaid, and I'm so excited to get cracking. Thank you so much for joining me, Deborah, and I must say, similar to What's Left Unsaid, I was left guessing until the actual reveal at the end of this, which was an absolute delight. Thank you for coming on the show to chat to us about Me and My Shadow. How are you? I'm very well, Hazel, and thank you so much for having me back. I really appreciate it, and obviously for you reading my book. I'm very, very pleased that you've had time. Thank you. Do you know what? I raced through it. I read it in about 48 hours. I was one of those, and hopefully there's no— hopefully no police listening, but when I was stuck in traffic jams and I wasn't moving anywhere, I was like reading it going, "What happens next?" And I was like, I've just bought myself a hybrid car and I found myself setting off to work a little bit earlier so I can just sit there while it charges at a garage somewhere while I can just read my book. It's fantastic, you must be really proud of it. Well, yeah, I am. I mean, it's, you know, it's always very difficult when you put a new book out there to know how it's going to be received. And fortunately, so far I've had really, really positive reviews. You know, it deals with a lot of difficult issues and it's not necessarily, you know, one of those books that promises happy endings or anything. But so you never know quite how it will be received. But I'm really pleased to say that so far, you know, it's doing well. And I, yeah, I'm proud of it. It's a bit like giving birth, as people often say. And, you know, It takes a long time to find out whether people really like a book. Somebody said, I think it was Alan DeBotton, that when you put a new book out there, it's a bit like telling a joke and finding out if it's funny 3 years later. That's a long time to wait for somebody's recognition. Exactly. I mean, as I said in the intro, I really was completely surprised by the ending until I actually read the sentence that revealed what was going on. And I think that's such an incredible book to be able to read because you quite often have a vague idea of what— how things are going to go, and there's so many twists and turns. But what I also found is, you know, we all have to deal with family dynamics and how it can affect us and the whole nature versus nurture argument. And I'm sure there's many people that will read it and it will kind of strike them to the core a little bit. Yeah. We have to take such responsibility being a parent, and just because you're a parent doesn't mean you're necessarily going to be a good one. And just, it's just, it's got a little bit of a 'we need to talk about Kevin' vibe about it, don't you think? Yes, a little bit. I mean, that wasn't necessarily what I was thinking about when I wrote it, but I could see why you would say that. I mean, it is a really interesting dynamic, isn't it? And that whole debate about how much your parents shape you versus what you're able to do yourself. But, you know, I do think that childhood experiences and trauma and all that kind of thing has a profound effect on how people grow up and whether or not they're able to deal with it and what ways— the ways in which they do deal with it are very different depending on their personalities. So it's It's a very, very interesting area, I think, to explore, which is why I wanted to kind of look at it in this book. Yeah, well, you do cover family dynamics a lot. I mean, I know that I said, you know, you've written two novels, but you've also written a third book as well, The Essential Family Guide to Caring for Older People, which I've also read and I find it hugely helpful. But you, yeah, as I said, you're very much into family dynamics. Do you have quite a functioning, a positively functioning family dynamic? With your family? Yeah, I mean, I had a very happy childhood and a reasonably functioning, you know, family dynamic. I mean, my mother— some of what's in the first novel relates to her early life in that she was evacuated as a small child, and she did suffer a nervous breakdown when she returned from the war. She was only 5 when she was evacuated, and she went to a very unhappy home where she wasn't very well looked after. And that did have repercussions for her as an older person and as a parent. I think she struggled at times, particularly once we all started to grow up, to deal with the fact that she needed to let go and give us our independence. And I think, you know, I wouldn't say I had a terrible childhood at all, but I do think that there was a lot in it that gave me food for thought. And that, you know, as I've got older, I've kind of thought about, and it's helped to write about it, not directly, but some of the issues that were were relevant to me and to other people I know. It's interesting, isn't it, because every author that I interview, and some of the most disturbing books are the best ones, and then you kind of say, you know, what was your inspiration? Are you a murderous psychopath? Well, it is a worry, isn't it? I mean, some of the best books I've written, that have been, that have, not written, sorry, read, that have been disturbingly violent came from a primary school teacher, which is quite interesting. I'm like, you know, do the parents of your students read your books? And he's like, yes, and it can be quite embarrassing at parents' evening. But it's just, it's interesting where the experience comes from. And when you manage to get to the core and to be able to write a good book, you've got to have some knowledge, or some people just are purely down to research. Yeah, and a very good friend of mine for this book, she is a, um, a counselor and a psychologist, and, um, I did draw a lot on her, um, experience to really understand how people, um, or how counselors and psychologists would talk to patients, for example, um, which obviously is a core scenario in the book, and, um, to really try and understand what questions they might ask and how they might delve into people's backgrounds in order to understand what their current issues are. So, you know, whilst it's not my specific area of expertise, I did do quite a lot of research into how that area works and how people are— how people who have issues are approached by such, you know, by psychologists and counsellors. Well, and also knowledge is power. I'm a huge fan. I mean, there's many things that I don't agree about the American way of life, but, you know, the fact that they use a counsellor, you know, they visit a counsellor or a psychotherapist like most people would the dentist, or even more so. And the more we understand ourselves and we understand our motivations, the best we can do for ourselves. And I think this book really did bring to the fore how we can be primed and conditioned to have low self-esteem. And if we understand why— yes, when we understand ourselves, that's when we can possibly rectify it. And I think actually the main character, Rachel, she seemed to have, unrecognizably to herself, quite a strength of character. Yes, and I think she is quite a strong character, but I think that through all the things that happen to her in the book, she becomes a warped character. And as you say, it's not— it's still not particularly well accepted in this country. And I know that mental health is much higher up the agenda these days, but it's still not necessarily accepted that if you have issues, you will go and talk to somebody about it, and you will try and get to the bottom of it. I had one strange review for the book today, actually, that said, well, I just don't understand how an educated woman like that wouldn't have gone to get help and wouldn't have avoided her trigger points. But That's just so simplistic because at the end of the day, people— if you get that low and you don't understand how to get out of it, you can't necessarily drag yourself to a counsellor or to, you know, avoid your trigger points because you're in a place where you just don't know how to do that. And I think that a lot of people do get to the point where they they get very low self-esteem, or they get themselves in a situation that they simply don't know how to get themselves out of, and it can change their— not necessarily their personalities, but their characters, even though they know at the same time that it's not what they want, if that makes sense. Yeah, but we can be scared to do so. Oh, there's the money, there's a financial element, and also sometimes we don't want to actually understand our psyche too much because it might scare us. We might actually realize that You know, we've either been a victim of something, we don't want to have to embrace that because once you are a victim of something you can't change that. You know, we all like to put our head in the sand and kind of ignore things, and sometimes the best way is just to avoid triggers, which many people do. And that's what she tried to do in trying to ostracize her family, which unfortunately were the catalyst for a lot of her issues. But, you know, it's hard if we don't understand what the problem is. It's a bit of a never-ending circle. If we don't understand what the problem is, we don't know whether we actually need to get help with it. That's right. And that's right. And if you've grown up in a family where you're not particularly loved or not particularly— how should you say— the favourite or welcomed or whatever, you haven't had that in the early days, you haven't got that security and that confidence to know how to move on to get it in the future. And I think it becomes a bit of a vicious circle in that you're not necessarily sure how to get it. As you say, you're frightened to do it because if somebody does open a can of worms, what are you going to do with it? You know, so it's, I mean, I think from my point of view, you know, one of the things I hope people get from the book is that, you know, you should go and talk about your problems, and you shouldn't let it fester. And obviously, you know, this book is extreme in the sense of, you know, where it goes and the things that happen and so on. But it's more of an illustration about what can happen if you don't really understand what your problems are and you haven't got the right people to talk to. And it's not always professional people, you know, it's having the right friends and having family around you and all that sort of thing is so important in order to stay sane, I think. Well, yeah, but the main character couldn't have spoken to her friends because she'd had most of them alienated by isolation. That's right, that's what I'm saying. So, you know, it's that extreme position, but it is a position that unfortunately some people do find themselves in where they don't feel they have close friends, they don't have close family, and so it's that overwhelming sense of, I'm alone, and, you know, but I need to fight through this, and I need to almost become something I'm not in order to survive it. And that's what I mean by, you know, personalities warping slightly, but you're still trying. I mean, she is a very strong character because she still keeps going through all of it and she wants to. She doesn't make the right choices necessarily, but I don't think those are her fault necessarily. Yeah, I mean, the worse things get, the more you don't see clearly, the more you don't— you react quickly or you kind of go to something that makes you feel comfortable, which relates to what you're used to. And I know this sounds kind of a little bit garbled, but we stick to what we know when we're a bit fearful, which generally, if things have gone wrong for us, we're sticking to what we know that doesn't work. And yeah, and you also, you're also not sure of your own reality necessarily, because I think, you know, Rachel is a very unreliable narrator throughout the book, and we're not sure you know, what the reality is and what the truth and what the lies are with her or with anybody else. So I think that's where, you know, quite often people can become unsure about what their actual truth is if they've had a difficult time. And if you're constantly told that you're not worthy anyway, then you've got to find an extreme amount of strength to suddenly decide that you are. And I do think books like this are really helpful for people to read because I although they are thoroughly entertaining, they help us kind of really realise things about ourselves or about others. And I kind of— the way you wrote it, you really kind of— you were really rooting for her. And I remember thinking at one point, because I'm a huge writer, I love writing, I find it hugely cathartic, especially if I'm wanting to kind of figure out an issue. And I remember thinking to myself at one point, I was like going, "Come on, Rachel, you're a writer, sweetheart, write about it, work it through." I was like, no, she's not going to respond to me and she's not real. But I did find myself rooting for her. It's great that you got so into her. So that's, that's, you know, that's great. And I think that's what's so— it's so difficult to write a book from that point of view, to try and get people on board with the protagonist when they're not necessarily, you know, the cuddliest of people. And so, you know, it's great to hear that you did root for her because You know, I think she is, despite everything, a positive character. But I think, you know, you go on a journey with her, don't you? And it's not always an easy journey, but, you know, the idea is that you travel with her and understand what she's going through. There's only so much she can take as well. Yes, exactly. Exactly. It's hard to talk about in a way because you can't reveal the twists and turns, so it's difficult to discuss in real detail, isn't it? So yeah, well, a couple of things I would like to know is you must have written this during the pandemic. I did, and I'll tell you how it happened. It was a difficult pandemic for me because my mother died of COVID in September of 2020. And yes, it was a very difficult time, as it has been for many, many people. Obviously in this country and all over the world. And I was very down, and then I woke up one night in the middle of the night and had this idea. And it was a germ of an idea, literally. And I, you know, I can't really tell you what the idea was because it's really the core of the book. But it's— I thought, oh, I wonder if I could write that. I wonder if there's a story in that. And then I kind of mulled it around and started to write it. And it did take quite a long time because As you say, it's kind of complex and it covers quite a lot of different issues. But I knew kind of where it started and where it needed to end, if that makes sense. So I was just trying to— so that was the inspiration. It was literally an idea that I had in the middle of the night when I woke up, and I think I wasn't sleeping very well. And it kind of went from there, really. So that was kind of— it wasn't something I'd always had in the back of my mind or something. It was one of those ideas that suddenly came. It's a bit odd. This is the same for most writers, isn't it? If you can't sleep, an idea comes into your head and you've got the choice of either writing it down and then igniting all those synapses that are going, "Yes, we've got a cracking idea!" Or you actually get some sleep and you don't ruin the next day. That's right. Or you have dreams like I have normally, which are so bizarre that, you know, you could never write a book about them because, you know, all sorts of weird stuff start happening. I tell my husband about them in the morning. I say, "Can I tell you about my dream?" And he goes, "Oh, do I have to?" Because they are very, very odd usually. But this was quite a kind of coherent thing. It actually woke me up and sort of said, "Okay, yeah." And I thought, "Yes, that's an idea." And I told one of my sons about it. He said, "Yeah, but how are you going to write that?" And I said, "I really don't know." But you figured it out. Yeah, in the end. In the end, it took quite a lot of kind of twists and turns. And, you know, it was important to me as well to bring the Rachel sister and, you know, the whole sibling dynamic in, make it real as well. And that she was kind of a rounded character, which I hope she came across as, as opposed to just a caricature and somebody who's just there because she was the favourite child kind of thing. Yeah, and I think it's nice also when there's books out there that don't just paint this perfect family picture, because a lot of people's anxiety and depression comes from seeing perfect lives on Instagram and Facebook, or reading about them in other books where, you know, the sister is the best friend, where some of us sit there going, I've not spoken to my brother for years. It's, um, I was gonna say, most people, you know, hopefully do have, um, good family dynamics, but there are many, many families where for one reason or another, you know, parents will favour one child over another and it has serious implications. And then, you know, depending on how they brought them up on— based on that dynamic, then it really affects the sibling relationship. And that, you know, I have two sisters and I'm very close to both of them, and, you know, one of them I would say is my absolute best friend. So, you know, back to the cliché, but You know, there are lots of families where that just isn't the case, would you say, where people don't speak or they feel that they're constantly in competition. And, you know, if parents, also if parents, if you like, set children up to compete against each other. I mean, I wouldn't say that necessarily happened in my childhood, but my middle sister is very close to me in age, and because of it, you know, because I was older and did things first, then my parents would always expect my sister to do the same things, and she and I had completely different skill sets. So I think to a very minor degree it did affect my sister's confidence at times, and also mine, because if you do that kind of comparison thing— and I'm sure it was subconscious, but you know, you can't— as you said at the beginning, you know, parenting is really difficult. I've got two boys and I'm sure there's loads of things I haven't got right, but so, you know, all you can do is your best. And I think some parents, you know, for whatever reason, bringing their own backgrounds into it, their own, the way they grew up, their religion, their background or whatever. All of that can impact on their children's upbringing and every family is different, so you can have, you know, in the majority of cases it works really well and in some cases it goes badly wrong. Well, yeah, but we're all complex and we all receive things differently, we all understand things differently, and what might work for one person one won't necessarily work from the other. And yes, we do make mistakes, but can you imagine if we didn't make any mistakes while raising our children, and so our children had the idea that mistakes weren't commonplace and they weren't acceptable? Yeah, no, that's right. And it's, it's like the whole idea that, you know, children shouldn't ever fail, and that's very dangerous because when they do fail, which We all fail. I mean, you know, we all fail at things all the time. But if you have an idyllic childhood where you don't fail till much further down the line, for example, maybe as a teenager or even later, it's so much harder to cope with. So, you know, it's that whole thing about trying to bring your children up to be realistic about the fact that, you know, we don't— nobody gets things right. I mean, people make mistakes all day, every day, don't they, just in the normal course of life. Trying to help people understand that that's normal and that getting things wrong is a positive in a way, because you learn from it and you can move on, as opposed to it being just a terrible thing. And just learning coping strategies as well. Exactly, exactly right. You know, I think, and I think going back to your previous point about, you know, the social media and all of that, the portrayal of perfect lives all the time can, and perfect bodies and you know, we must look like this, we must say this, and we must do this, makes it much harder for people to not be so hard on themselves. You know, it's putting out a sort of idealistic view of what people should be that most people can't attain because it's not sustainable. You know, it's airbrushed, or it's, you know, it's just not what life's like in day-to-day. Yeah, well, I don't necessarily want to be friends with somebody who's completely perfect. I mean, that's that's going to be quite stressful. Well, yes, because then you're going to feel even less clever yourself. That's the trouble. But yeah, so it's, you know, there's a lot going on, isn't there, in just in general terms about that whole thing about— but I think, you know, learning to deal with whether it's failure, trauma, difficult relationships, all of that, you know, if it if you've got people who can help you through that and you can help yourself through that, you become a stronger person. But equally, if you don't have the right support mechanism around you, it can really destroy people, and that is an issue. 100% agree. And Me and My Shadow, it was released on the 10th of December of last year, wasn't it? That's right. So you managed to— Yeah, it's pretty new. It's been out about a month. Yes. Just a quick reminder to all of our listeners as well that when you do read some of our guest books, please do put a review up on Amazon because it's so helpful, isn't it, for your ratings and to get it kind of up the list. Oh yeah, it makes a big difference. It's just the most ridiculously competitive thing to do. And also, just from a personal point of view, it's so nice if people have, you know, taken the time just to either rate it or put up a quick review on there as to what they thought, whether it's positive or negative, because it's just Well, it's just, it's just— It's feedback. Yeah, yeah, to get that feedback. And, you know, if you're going to write other things, which hopefully I will, it's really important because you get to understand what people have enjoyed and, you know, whether they like the tone of it. And, you know, every writer is different and every reader is different, and that's why, you know, reading books— and I know I'm a great reader, as you are— that It's subjective, isn't it? So what I like, you might not like, and vice versa. But it's always useful to have that feedback, and it's always— I mean, I'm just hugely appreciative of anybody who'll leave me a review. So yes, please, if they would, that would be great. It's quite interesting because I remember reviewing something once, and the author got back in touch and went, "That was kind of not the way I was going with what I wanted you to get from it, but the fact that you got that from it is so interesting to know," because, you know, we all read circumstances differently. Sometimes, don't we? So it's just nice, yeah. And so as you said, you're quite a fan of reading yourself. Is there anything that you've been reading recently that you thought was brilliant? Well, the one I've read recently that I thought was absolutely brilliant was the Colin Toibin, The Master— no, sorry, The Magician. The Master is the one he wrote on Henry James, which is also brilliant, but The Magician, which he's just written about Thomas Mann, which is a fictionalized account of Thomas Mann's life, which was absolutely brilliantly written, as all his stuff is. But I mean, he's an incredible writer because he's— every book of his is different. He's just written his first book of poetry, I think, as well. But it was just fascinating in terms of the history, brilliantly written. I couldn't put it down. I thought it was absolutely amazing. So that's the one I've read most recently. And the other one I really enjoyed recently was O William by Elizabeth Strout because I love her stuff. And it was again a very gentle, beautifully written book, as all of hers are. So yeah, those are the two I've read most recently. And I've got a few on the pile, but I can't remember what they are. I'm actually just putting them in my basket now from the author of My Name Is Lucy Barton. There you go. Lovely. That's right, yeah, really, really great books. Yeah, yeah, no, so I think you'll enjoy those. I mean, have you read Olive Kitteridge and Lucy Bolton and those things? They're great. I haven't. Do you know what? I've been— so many people in lockdown have been trying their hand at writing that book that they always thought that they'd write, and then they were given the time, so I'm reading so many indie authors at the moment, and kind of— Oh, that's great. Yeah, so it does quite often mean that I don't get chance to read some of the more mainstream literature out there, but what I tend to do is I do those on Audible. Oh yeah, that's really sensible because then if you're in the car or walking the dog or whatever, you can listen to it. Yeah, and I do that a lot as well. Yeah, yeah, and podcasts and things. Yeah, and it's just kind of multitasking. Exactly, exactly. No, it's really good. I'm currently— very good for long car journeys. Yeah, yeah, completely. I'm actually doing— I'm actually listening to Shuggie Bain at the moment, and much to everybody else's— yeah, have you read it? Yeah, I mean, I think his writing is absolutely beautiful, and it's superb, but again, it's a book that is unrelentingly miserable. You know, it's very sad, isn't it? And just, you feel so much for him and his mother and everything. It's a book that really stayed with me, actually, after I read it. I thought it was, you know, it's certainly not a book to cheer you up, but I just thought it was beautifully written. It is definitely beautifully written. Yeah, and a much more, I thought, more deserved winner of the Booker than a lot of them have been in the last few years. I thought it was, you know, a very, very good well-crafted piece. And yeah, it's just very sad. Yeah, I mean, it is, but sometimes it's about finding out a little bit about a certain era or a certain culture as well. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Reality isn't always— And he's very— No, that's right, that's right. And I think It's very evocative of Glasgow at the time, and, you know, the poverty and all that. It's just an amazing achievement, that book, I think. So yeah, I hope you enjoy it. Are you— have you nearly finished it, or are you just starting it? I'm about halfway through, so at the moment my kids are thoroughly embarrassed by me slipping into my Glaswegian accent all the time, which is something that happens when you do— when you consume a book on Audible. But I do find, you know, that when you— if you are gonna do— if you're gonna consume a book on Audible, it's the ones that are set in a particular region because then you kind of involve yourself in it a little bit more as well and you kind of— a bit more— it's a bit more theatrical, I find. Yes, yes, I totally understand. Yeah, absolutely. But Maya— kind of a book that's No, I was just saying that I'm quite addicted to the Glaswegian accent anyway, but it's just I have a friend who's quite posh who's from Glasgow, but now my accent really is kind of transforming into more of the Shuggie Bain style, much to her disgust when she next speaks to me. But no, I do absolutely love it. Yeah, yeah, a lot more swearing. I'm very impressed that you could do it at all. I wouldn't even attempt it, I'm afraid, but I'm very impressed that you could do it. I think most people would wish I didn't attempt it, but there you go. And I'd love to know, do you have a favourite kind of genre? I'm fairly broad in what I read, actually. I mean, obviously I love a really good novel, and I have authors that I will always buy you know, their books. But I read very broadly, and I read, you know, some history, some biography. Really kind of, I'm always on the lookout for recommendations and things like that. So, you know, I'll ask friends what they've been reading. And I mean, I've read this, this is another book for your list, Mayflies by, it's Graham, I can't remember his name now. Absolutely beautiful book. And again, you'd really like it because it's setting again in Scotland, these young guys growing up. The first half of the book is them just like sowing their wild oats on a trip to see a band in Manchester. Oh, this is Andrew— is it O'Hagan? O'Hagan, yeah. That's right, Andrew O'Hagan. Yes, that's right, sorry, not Graham. And the second half of the book is then 40 years later, and it's just honestly, I cried. It was just the most Beautiful book. Interestingly, yeah, I mean, yeah, I've just seen that on the front of the book is actually a little kind of "Ooh, this is unforgettable" from Colm Tóibín, the other author that you like. Yeah, how weird. Anyway, it's a beautiful book. It's so, again, beautifully crafted, and just the first half is like frenetic, and it's like that wonderful, you know, group of guys at 18 and rushing around and, you know, being crazy, and then seeing them later on when they've got kind of other big problems to deal with. And it's, yeah, it's a fabulous book. So I, yeah, as I say, I'm always looking out for suggestions, reviews, and, you know, I really like to read indie authors. The only genre I'm just really not good at dealing with is science fiction. I've just never really been into science fiction. Magical realism and things like that I really like, you know, Isabella Lundy and people like that, but not science fiction. I'm a bit hopeless at that. Yeah, myself too. I'm kind of not really into fantasy either. No, no, it's that kind of lack of characterisation and arc, story arc. I mean, there's always a really good story to it, but It's no depth of characterisation, I don't think, or not as much. It's just not my particular— it's not the genre I really enjoy. But most of the stuff I'll read, I'll read anything. Brilliant, that's what we like to hear. I think it's good to read widely because I think it gives you, as you say, you know, windows into situations, people, and environments, countries, all sorts of things that you, you wouldn't necessarily know about otherwise. But also just in terms of increasing your emotional range and the way you react to what's happening to different people in different situations and how the author's also talking about how they react. I think it's— I always come away from books and thinking about that, you know, they come back to you at different times when you're not expecting it, the good ones anyway. You think, "Oh, that's really taught me something I didn't know before," and that's not necessarily factual. As I say, it can be emotional or just a kind of feeling or thinking, "Yeah, that really changed how I thought about something or made me feel something I didn't, I haven't felt for ages," or whatever. But it increases compassion as well because it helps to understand a little bit more about other people, even whether the book's memoir or fiction, you know, we still find out about something else. And I am reading this fantastic book at the moment about maternal anger, and it's, it's just books where they can just kind of enrich you or help you understand, or, or maybe you can help a friend, or maybe it helps you recognize something within yourself. And once you recognize something, that's when you can do something about it. Yeah, and I think compassion is really important, and it's being— it's the old phrase from To Kill a Mockingbird, isn't it, by Atticus, where he says, you know, you don't understand a person until you walk around in their shoes. And I think that's what books allow you to do. I think they really allow you to get inside somebody else's head as well as, you know, just their physical environment or whatever else. And that can never be a bad thing. And, you know, I say to my husband a lot, you know, he hardly ever reads fiction, and I say to him, you know, it's really important to read fiction because It takes you out of your— it just takes you out of your current environment. It takes you out of the place you're sitting reading it, and, you know, your imagination can run. And it's so important. I just think it gives your brain a playground to run about in, and you don't get that any other way apart from reading or listening to books or whatever. It's a control alt delete. That's That's how I like to kind of term it, a Ctrl+Alt+Delete. And also, you know what, to involve yourself in something that's just not on your phone or your iPad. And I understand that there are, you know, there's a time and a place where sometimes, and sometimes it's cheaper, or sometimes it's just more convenient to read on the Kindle. But whenever an author gets in touch with me and says, oh, you know, can you read my book? Please, can you send me it though, rather than sending me an electronic copy? Copy because I will feel the vibration on my phone, I will see a notification come through, or it's just too easy to check Twitter and see whether somebody's responded to your latest tweet. Yes, exactly. It's just— but also the actual process. In Maxime Gattaz's book there's no distractions at all. Yeah, and it is the actual process as well of actually reading words that kind of reprograms your brain and increases its creativity and productivity as well. Just kind of, yeah, yeah, the less we do it, you know, we'll stop knowing how to actually do some of these basic things, you know. Even my kids know if they've had a bit too much tech and they've had a little bit of a flip out, as I like to term it, and I've not been very impressed with them, they will go and read somewhere and they'll, because they'll go, Mum will be happy if we read because we know it's like kind of refreshing our brain again. Yeah, which is fantastic, and I think, you know, both of my boys read as well, and I think it's so important, particularly as you said, in this technological age where it's so easy just not to. But it is a form of puritanism, and when I'm reading, I'm totally deaf. I mean, I just, you know, there's no talking to me when I'm reading a book because I just can't hear anything. Anyone else. Brilliant. And I don't think there's anything else where you can say that, actually, because you don't have the visual stimulation in the same way, so you have to— your brain has to imagine, it has to go there, if you like, it has to put you in that particular situation. And I don't think there's anything else that does that. You know, once you've got a visual medium to watch at the same time, it's taking some of the hard work away from your brain, isn't it? —showing you what it might look like. Sorry, go on. I was going to say there's something quite interesting that I do every year on my birthday. You know, I'm probably— most of my friends would admit I'm quite a party animal. I am sociable. I do like to go out. I like to have big dinners and cook for people all the time. You know, I absolutely adore it. But on my birthday, I go off to a nice restaurant somewhere, get myself off a fantastic meal, nice glass of champagne or a nice glass of wine, and I sit there and read for about 3 or 4 hours. I'm like, yeah, but don't you want to like hang out with people? I'm like, no, this is my birthday. And I always do it. Yeah, it's— and that's an amazing thing to do. Yeah, yeah, that's an amazing thing to do. And it's very hard. I mean, I, I find that finding the time to read, that's the thing, you know. By the time you get to bed, it's, you know, I'll often nod off. And during the day it's obviously frenetic, so it's harder to find the time. I mean, you know, I read loads when I go away, like I'll read a book a day if I can just lie on a deck chair and do that. But it's trying to find the time, and it's important to put aside the time. So it's amazing you do that on your birthday. That's a really good idea. I might do that. Oh, it sets me right up. And I have people saying, oh, can we not just take you out? And I'm like, yeah, maybe in the evening, on the weekend, but in the day it's my time. And something else that I actually do, and I really missed this during lockdown, and it sounds like the most ridiculous of things to miss considering there were so many horrific things that was happening, but every 2 weeks my kids go to their dad for the weekend, and I used to get him when he picked up the kids to kind of drop me at the local wine bar where I'd be meeting my friends at 7, but I would go at quarter to 6 and have a good hour of just sitting at the bar reading a book where I wasn't worried about emptying the dishwasher, washing machine, whatnot. And, you know, my friends would come and go, "Oh, you look like you've been here a while. Did we get the wrong time?" I'm like, "No, no, no, no, you didn't." No, no, that's great because then, you know, the kids are fine and, you know, you haven't got anything to worry about. And that's, that's, yeah, it's just so great. And it's, you know, I mean, part of my problem is during the day when you're busy and you've when you're working and everything else and you think, "Oh, I'm going to be guilty if I just sit down and read a book for an hour." And that's just ridiculous. But, you know, sometimes I get like that and I really, I think then maybe it's stupid, you know, but I do it. But yeah, it's so important. I mean, I just wish, I feel passionately about reading and, you know, getting kids to read from an early age. And, you know, one of my great badges of honour is I read all of the Harry Potter books and all of the Lemony Snicket books out loud to my children, which quite a long time. Wow, we're huge readers though, we always did that. Yeah, yeah, and it's so important to instil that in children. I think sadly, you know, some families don't have that opportunity, and it's just a great shame because, you know, if you get that reading habit early, it's so important and it brings so much more depth to everything else that you learn, I think, as we've been talking about too. Well, do you know what, I've got, I mean, I've got a level of OCD, and you know, as any, as most mothers, they always like to multitask, and it's kind of, it's my thing to find ways of finding guilt-free ways to just sit there and read. So even after, after we finished our interview today, I'm off to go and give blood, but I'll take my book with me, so I'm doing two things at once. I'm very impressed. But it's because sometimes, as you said, we feel guilty if we just sit there, but if we're on the bus on the way to somewhere, or if we're taking our kids to football, you know, it's finding ways to make it less of a commitment. Oh yeah, no, I've always got a book with me. I don't go anywhere without a book, because it's— and it's, you know, it's— and if I forget my book and I'm waiting around somebody or whatever, waiting to pick someone up— Ah, the frustration! Oh God, what am I gonna do now? And then you think, oh, I've got my Kindle or my phone, but it's not quite the same thing. But I'll still kind of go there rather than watch something or listen to something. But yeah, it's good. And you know, when you're on the tube and stuff, you do, you know, lots of people have got their books and are reading and everything, which is brilliant. You know what is quite funny, Deborah? A lot of people complaining about all the queues outside the supermarkets just at the beginning of the pandemic when they really had to limit them. Yeah. Extremely strict. And I always took a book with me, and I remember this lady coming to the front of the queue where I was, and she said, "Oh, can I just ask you how long you've been in the queue so I know how long I've got to wait?" And I was like, "I'm really sorry, I haven't the faintest idea how long I've been here. I'm just reading." She said, "I've been here for 50 pages." 'About 50 pages?' And she's like, 'Well, so about, you know, 35 minutes.' I'm like, 'Yeah, sounds about right.' But you know, there's ways around everything. If anybody's listening going, 'I just don't have the time,' there's ways, there's ways around everything. Yes, exactly. Although I'm talking a lot about, you know, the joys of reading, what I do like to ask all of my guests you might remember from last time that you were on Get Booked, is because this is a wellbeing show and we like to promote, you know, positive mental practices, is there anybody out there in the public eye who you think just boosts you? You think everything that they're about is just good, or they're funny, or they just— they're not one of these people that makes you feel bad about yourself. Is there somebody out there for you? Now there's a question. I think there's lots of people who, you know, make me laugh and, you know, I'll go to, to kind of, you know, either watch or listen to. But I'll tell you what I do listen to and it always kind of cheers me up, and I just like to listen to them all talk, is when I'm doing the cooking usually on a, I don't know, I love to bake, so, you know, because you're baking something on a Sunday. And then I'll watch the recording of something like Graham Norton because I just find that really kind of uplifting. And, you know, he's just— he's a brilliant talk show host anyway, but he's always got great people on, and just— it's just really interesting to hear them all yatter, and he gets, you know, interesting stuff from them and things like that. So I find that quite uplifting. And then just in terms of— yeah, I love— I mean, I just love— I love listening to comedy. So I'll, you know, I'm a great fan of anything like Mock the Week and Have I Got News For You or anything like that. It just takes the mickey out of what's been going on when it's been so dark and miserable with all the news. And, you know, things like that are really important to me. I think there's nothing more important than having a laugh, because if you can laugh, a lot of other problems that you've got do go away, even if it's momentarily. Even if you've been through a really dark patch, you know, you've suffered a bereavement or things going really badly, I think watching comedy is genuinely uplifting, and I'm a great comedy fan, so anything like that. I mean, and those are just examples, you know, I like stand-up and all sorts of things. There's lots of inspirational people out there, I think. And obviously, you know, on the flip side, there's lots of people out there who are doing genuinely great things to bring mental health more to the fore. And I mean famous people, but also you know, people who are working on that every day to try and make people understand that it is acceptable to ask for help. And I think that's just so important. Yeah, brilliant. I find it interesting that you say that about stand-up comedians. I did actually, I booked to go and see a couple of stand-ups this Saturday. I'm very lucky that I'm close, I live very close to one of these comedy clubs where they always get somebody big in. I think there's Tim Vine on one of them, and then they always have somebody who's brand new, and then there's a couple of middle of the road who are just, you know, they're established but they're not quite on telly yet, and then there's always like some sort of wild card, and I absolutely love it, and we all kind of— it's, I don't know if you know South West London, but it's the Bearcat Comedy Club, it's been going for 20-odd years, and you get people like Omid Djalili and, you know, all the really big ones out there at the moment, they come in and they just go, well, actually, this is where I got my break, and you're paying like £20, it's right next to a bar, you're right at the front, I mean, you're in spitting distance. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I went to, when lockdown was kind of being eased off, we went to the Union Chapel in Islington, which I'd never been to before, before, and they had Milton James was on, and then as you say, some lesser-known comedians, and it was just brilliant. We hadn't done anything like that in such a long time, and it was just great to have a laugh, and it was exciting to be out and seeing those people. Engaged. Yeah, exactly, and you engage in a different way, and it's, you know, you might not find everything funny, But just to be, I think also to be in a crowd of people who are laughing is actually very therapeutic, rather than just watching on the telly. Live performances, there's something about it that is very energising and really, you know, you come out thinking, oh, I had a really great time, you know. It's when they bring it back round as well, and yeah, I just, this is the thing, isn't it? It's all about balance. You know, in how you found your entertainment and what boosts you, and it's such a powerful tool to know what it is that is gonna make you happy or feel positive about life. Do you have— something else I like to ask a lot of my guests is whether you have 3 top tips on mental well-being, which I suspect one is comedy for yourself. Yeah, well, I mean, I, for me, Well, I think walking every day, because I think I told you before we started the interview, I recently lost my golden retriever. Well, a few weeks ago now. I've had him for like 13 and a half years, and he and I went out every single day, rain or shine. And it was genuinely a highlight of my day because not just to be with him and out, but I just think just being outside is really important and And it was one of the huge saviours, I think, of the lockdown, was that we could still all go for a walk. And, you know, and we're lucky, you know, we live near Hampstead Heath and, you know, there's a lot of walking areas. But even just being able to walk around the local area is just, I just think, a great boon. So for me, that's one of them. The second one is, I think, just being able to, yeah, entertain yourself. So, you know, watching comedy, watching a great program on television, or reading a great book. I think all of that has the ability to take you out of yourself and put you in a different situation so that you can think about something other than your current predicament. Yeah. And I think the third thing for me is being able to talk. So, you know, having— if you're lucky to have, I don't mean many friends, but, you know, like one or two really close people whether it's your partner, whether it's friends, or both, where you can just say, you know, actually, I'm feeling really awful today, or I'm, you know, this is worrying me, or that, and somebody who'll just listen. And they may not have the solutions, but at the end of the day, you've been able to offload that burden and talk about it a little bit, and all of that helps. And actually, I'll add a fourth thing in, which is exercise, because I think, you know, walking, obviously, but I also I run a lot and do stuff like that. And I think for me anyway, I find that really releases a lot of stress and anxiety. And when I can't do that, I'm a bit like a caged animal. Yeah, I am so much so. From a mental health point of view. Yeah. So I would think those, I think all those 4 things. I think it's being engaged with people that you love and things that you're interested in and things that take you out of yourself. And as I say, I think keeping physically fit is also a great part of mental health. I think it can't be underestimated that you actually move. It does, it really, really helps. It does me anyway, it might not be for everybody. But sometimes it's nice just to listen to other people's ideas and what works for them. I mean, this is what I hope the listeners get from Get Booked. It's just hearing about other people's lives, thought processes, what boosts them, and it's just kind of sometimes just ignites something in us and we go, do you know what, I should try that, maybe that's going to work. And that, that's what I hope for the people that are listening. And something that I do often get asked, especially on Twitter and, and some of the comments to the shows, is, is to ask the authors for a little bit of advice on trying to get published, because a lot of people listen to this show going, right, okay, I'd really like to write a book as well, but I wouldn't even know where to start in getting somebody interested in it. You've now had 3 books published, so how did you get that done? Yes, well, I've done it differently. Well, I've done it differently each time, actually. I found it, if I'm being absolutely honest, I found the publishing process enormously frustrating. My first novel I self-published in the end because I couldn't get an agent for it, and it sold over 3,000 books, which doesn't sound like a lot but is actually an awful lot for a novel because I think the average novel sells something like 200 copies or something. So I'm quite proud of the fact that that's done really well. And then I published my second book, which was the non-fiction book, which as you mentioned before is helping families looking after older people, and it's a manual with all the information that you need in there. And I got that published with Bloomsbury, so a very big publisher publisher. Yeah. And I thought then, having had the successes of those two, that with this novel it would be really easy to, or easier to, get an agent and a publisher. But it just hasn't been. And I think it's very, very difficult because I think there's a great focus these days on celebrity publishing. So, you know, if you're well known, it's easier to get published, or if you're already in the industry. And so what I would say to people is, if you've got a book you believe in, and that you've got other people— I mean, I always get lots of beta readers for my books, and I get an editor to read it and all that kind of thing, and take all of that on board. If you really then believe you've got something strong, then you should just get out there and publish it. And so this one I've also self-published, which wasn't my intention originally, but I think that I'd rather put it out there. And, you know, you've got to be quite brave to put a book out there, and I'm not saying I'm a brave person, but I think it is a bit of a leap of faith, and you are opening yourself up to, you know, praise and a lot of criticism if people don't think it's a book for them. But I think if you put your heart and soul into something, and writing a book is a big thing, then don't give up, just get it out there. And if you keep being rejected— and the more I read about it, the more I understand that, you know, you have to write a lot of books before you might actually get picked up by a publisher to take it forward. And, you know, that's just been my experience. Other people have very different experiences and got published quickly and move forward. And, you know, it's hard for me to say because, you know, they may well have written much better books or whatever, I don't know. But it's really a very difficult area. There doesn't seem to be a— I don't know how would I put it— a clear path as to how to do it. I still haven't worked out what that is. But I think that's good for our listeners to hear that, you know, there's not a hard and fast rule and that sometimes you might have to look at different options. And I must urge our listeners to appreciate that, you know, just because a book is getting a lot of press because the author is famous doesn't necessarily mean it's a fantastically written book. And to just, you know, maybe give indie authors a bit of a go every now and again. I tend to put a lot of, a lot of the reviews that I have on my website, it's hazelbutterfield.com, is I tend to only have, say, 1 out of every 4 is somebody who, you know, quite a well-known book. Because I don't read— Yeah, and I think, you know, well, obviously, Obviously, I completely agree with you, Hazel. Yes, I thought you might. I think it's really important, but it's a vast marketplace. I mean, there are millions of books published, and it's very difficult for people to know what to read, and they've limited amounts of time, and you just have to be lucky that somebody might recommend your book, or they see it flashing up on Amazon or wherever, and they think, "Oh, that looks interesting." But it is, uh, it is real potluck to a degree as to whether people pick up your book or not. But, you know, um, I think you just have to be patient. As I said earlier on in this conversation, you can't write a book and expect it to be a hit overnight unless you are somebody, you know, who's got a lot of publicity behind it and you've got a big publisher who's putting a lot of money behind it, which is, you know, probably a handful of books a year get that. You just have to think, well, okay, I'm going to put this out there, I'm going to grow a thick skin in terms of, you know, comments you get back, or, you know, if they're positive, that's brilliant. And I'm just going to see what happens. And that's all you can really do. And I think it can be very soul-destroying, but I think you have to just look at it from a different point of view, which is, look, I've written this book, do I think it's good enough to get out there? Do other people I've spoken to think it is? If the answer is yes, then just go for it and see what happens. And, you know, I don't think it's— the majority of people are not going to make a fortune or be able to make a living out of it. But, you know, if that's what you enjoy doing and you think you've written something decent, then I would suggest that you just get it out there. That's really helpful. Don't expect too much. Yeah, and you know what, if you don't try, you're never going to know, but I think it's really helpful hearing that, you know, it's not all plain sailing and, you know, sometimes you might have to put a little bit more effort in, but, you know, if it means something, just go for it and just find a way around getting it done. We have been chatting away and we're running out of time unfortunately, but I must say, Deborah, thoroughly enjoyed our chat. No shame, I'm enjoying it. We could go on for another couple of hours. Just a reminder to to our listeners that Me and My Shadow by Deborah Stone was released on the 10th of December of last year, and they can get it from anywhere, can't they? Uh, it's available on Amazon actually, so just Amazon, um, and you can get it in paperback and Kindle, and it's also available on Kindle Unlimited, so, um, it's those three, um, routes at the moment. I thought I'd seen it somewhere at Waterstones, but possibly— Oh, if they've got it then that would be great, but that could be my other two, I think. Yeah. Because I published this on Kindle, so on the Kindle Direct Publishing platform, so I don't think it is, but if anyone wants to rush in towards this and demand a copy of the book, that'd be great. I think they should do that anyway. That would be great. If you could sort that out, Hazel, that'd be marvellous. I'm all over it. I'm gonna go do it now, sorting it. Thank you so much for joining us. On Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station, and I look forward to having you on the show again when you release your fourth book. Oh yeah, give me some time, but yes, I very much hope so, and I'm very, very grateful to you for having me. Thank you so much, Hazel. You're very, very welcome. So Deborah has very kindly said that I can read a little section from the book we've been talking about today, Me and My Shadow to whet your appetite. So sit back and enjoy. When my sister was born, I stopped walking for a whole year. The doctor glanced up from her notepad, her head slightly tilted to her left. Why did you stop walking? How the hell would I know? I was 4 years old. I bent forward, studying my bleeding cuticles. Silence. When I looked up again, Dr. Blake was still staring at me, unblinking. Like some doe-eyed dog waiting for me to toss her a biscuit. Well, can you expand on it at all? Was it a physical problem, or do you think it was triggered by something else, possibly? I've already told you, I don't know. Maybe my legs were tired. I chuckled at my own witticism. The doctor scribbled something on her pad with her shiny black Montblanc ink pen. She was perched across from me in a plush green velour armchair which matched mine exactly. We were separated only by a sparkling glass coffee table which was supported by an intricate maze of crazy spiral legs. Behind her was an unfeasibly large oak desk, meticulously tidy and virtually empty aside from a leather pen holder and a blotter, pristine without a trace of ink. Behind the desk The wall was peppered with certificates. Dr. C. Blake, Doctor of Psychiatry from this university, that university, another university. I returned my gaze to Dr. Blake, who was as immaculate as her surroundings, with her perfectly tailored navy trouser suit topped by a perfectly tied creamy pussy bow at the neck of her blouse. Her feet were encased in spiky red stilettos. I liked the shoes, they were sharp, edgy. Dr. Blake uncrossed her slender legs and recrossed them to the other side. Her silky ash blonde ponytail swayed slightly as she moved. 'So what did your parents do when you refused to walk?' asked her perfectly painted red pout. I made no reply. 'Rachel, please tell me, how did they respond?' She leant forward slightly in her chair. Caressing her notebook to her chest. They got frustrated and they became angry with me, I thought, pulling at a piece of raw skin on my thumb. Dr. C. Blake, Doctor of Psychiatry from this university, that university, another university.