Get Booked – Dr Karen Graham, Accept How You Feel, Mind How You Think

Hello everybody, I'm Hazel Butterfield and this is my show Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station, all about books, authors, and their incredible way to help support good emotional well-being and enrich our minds, to distract, entertain, and learn about so many different things. Come and join us, get involved, and if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows. /getbooked on our SoundCloud. Now, the world around us may seem to be in trouble, but it is the way we think and feel and our ability to manage negative reactions that determine how troubled we feel, feel, as well as how much we can genuinely help others. Now it's an important time to learn more about healthy mental and emotional management. Today on the show, we do have Dr. Dr. Karen Graham, who is going to talk to us about her book, Accept How You Feel, Mind What You Think, two separate books that are released together. Accept How You Feel explains why feelings get complicated and cause stressful blockage, how to manage difficult feelings and the way to let them go for good. This is healing and makes you emotionally stronger. And then there's Mind What You Think, which sheds light on reactions and habits that cause stress or anxiety. Ways to manage unhelpful thoughts to quickly get on top of them. This unblocks your potential and makes you mentally stronger. Are you ready? Of course you are. Karen, hi! Hello, how are you, Hazel? I'm really good, although, you know, it's quite interesting. I read these books all the time, and these two books have affected me in lots of different ways because they have really highlighted some of the failures in how I am behaving at the moment, things that I can change myself. And it's kind of made me think, "Ah, but I like using strong language sometimes to tell people how I feel about things." And it's just, it's not always helpful. And sometimes we feel like we're getting our point across if we use more intricate language, and yet sometimes it's just really unhelpful, isn't it? I think you're right. And I used to do that myself. I think we kind of enjoy letting off steam and using strong language, but there is an impact on ourselves. And it's well worth our while to kind of recognise that and take charge of it and, yeah, really modify it because it's— much better for us in the end. Language is, I mean, it's so important. I read a lot of books that focus on the importance of language, and a lot of it is, it is common sense, but yet common sense isn't that common, and we sometimes just need to remind ourselves because we're so busy about, you know, the one voice we will listen to most is our own. And the language you use to other people, it kind of determines, you know, the children that we have in our life, the family and the friends that we have in our life. Language is so incredibly powerful. And there's— it's really bizarre, but I have to read quite a lot, and I have a power plate. Do you know what a power plate is? No, it's like this— oh, actually, yes, I think I do. Is it an organ kind of thing, or— It's basically like, imagine a deck that's electric and it vibrates ridiculously and it's supposed to kind of sort all your muscles out and give you strengthening and you do little poses and things like that. And I do 15 minutes a day and whatever book I'm reading stays down there with me and I read the books. So I, at least I'm doing 15 minutes, but I read all the time anyway. And interestingly, when I was reading both books and you know how you've got quite an interesting structure in that, you know, there's practical elements where people need to stop and actually think about the words they're using and reframe particular sentences and notice the difference in their gut. Yes. And when you're on a power plate and you change the way you speak, you know, the words that you're using to yourself, even if it is just in your head, and the difference it has on your gut, you notice the difference when you're on a power plate especially. Ah, that's interesting. No, I haven't heard of a power plate, but I'm not surprised at all. Yeah, I mean, it's good feedback, isn't it? Well, yeah, and you know what, I mean, I'm gonna be— the book is so dog-eared because I have been turning back pages to remind me things like, I mean, a good example for our listeners just to put it into perspective is the section that you've written on, you know, complete phrases like, you know, I feel completely useless, or I feel completely exhausted, but instead you change that to sometimes I feel exhausted I'm exhausted. Sometimes it's rather than, you know, definitive kind of this is me and there is no change, it is about just accepting how you feel but not making it final. Yeah, or so big. Because when things are too big, that's when they start to become really overwhelming for people. And so it's really simple little things like that can bring it in and just help you to manage it. You know, little words like, you know, I feel, I'm feeling run down at the moment versus, you know, I'm always run down. You know, everything feels too hard. At the moment everything feels too hard or everything feels too hard right now. Just adding those little tiny kind of phrases at the end to just pull it in to this moment I think makes a massive difference. You're right. I've been using it quite a lot, and I did, I actually had a lunch with a friend yesterday, and quite often we put the world to rights. We're very similar, and I find, I didn't actually say it to her, but I found coming away from the lunch so much more, you know, positive because I changed my language a little bit, a little bit when I was, you know, when I was talking about, say, an ex that was annoying me, I was kind of reframing my sentences a bit more, and it does make a difference. And it's actually incredibly simple to do, but it's something that you just need to work on as a habit and a mindset. Yeah, I think that's the key, actually. I think a lot of things can maybe work, but we actually have to put a bit of effort into making something a habit. And there's a lot of books out there that I think want to promote that and highlight that. And these books are no different. That the point of the exercises, I guess, was to give people a very real experience of how impactful our self-talk and the way we speak is and how these little changes can make such a big difference. But ultimately we do have to try and remember to use them all the time. So often I suggest to patients, for example, that they put a little note on their fridge or in their underwear drawer if they don't want anyone else to see it, anywhere that would just kind of remind them a bit until it starts to really become that habit, and then it just becomes natural. But we do— I mean, the section where you talk about, you know, we have learnt habits and from our youth or from things that have happened to us. And sometimes it takes a little bit more work for some people, I guess. And it's also recognizing what you're doing. Yeah, and I think, I think what I've noticed over the years with people is that the language is so powerfully different along the spectrum of how easily stressed somebody is. Like, the more people seem to be able to cope with adversity adversity and overcome things quicker and bounce back more easily. I mean, nothing is, you know, black or white and completely true for everybody, of course. But the way people talk about the past, things that have happened to them, or the way they talk about the future, or the way they're talking about something that's happening now that is really worrying or frustrating them, really determines, I think, at in the end how stressed they are. And I've noticed that people who are really anxious will use a lot of those kind of negative self-talk type of habits that are in the MIND book a lot. And people who are more highly resilient just don't. They really bring it in and they do it naturally. And I think it can be frustrating for a lot of people who are very stressed or anxious and they don't really understand why that is. Is. Um, so part of the point of that book was to bring to people's attention, I guess, that, um, these things make such a big difference. So I'm really— it's— it, it makes me feel really, I don't know, glad actually to hear you say that you've tried them, you've used them, and you're feeling the difference and, and motivated to keep doing it. Yeah, it's good. Well, I do know that in the past when things have happened to me, I've been so appalled by someone's behaviour that I've used, as I said before, such intricate language to try and decipher it in my brain, but sometimes you're giving it too much thought and not enough— you need to kind of focus less, I suppose, on anger sometimes and kind of the less— the more flippant you are with terminology, I guess, the more flippant your attitude can be towards something that's really affected you. And maybe, you know, you can't ignore what's happened, but you've got to be careful how much attention and focus you want to give to a particular scenario, which you discuss in, in, in the books as well. You know, you have to acknowledge what's happened, but don't go over the top in trying to overanalyze something and come up with more and more just in dark feelings inside you. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think, you know, we've been given good minds, so we have to use them. And I think we're, you know, we're meant to make sense of our experiences and to try to understand and interpret things. Um, but there is a point where, um, it doesn't serve us anymore. And it actually just becomes very harmful to us, especially when we do it a lot. I think the most important thing to take away from unpleasant experiences is how we feel about it, because that contains a lot of information. And dealing with that and not really trying to assume too much, because as soon as we get into assumption territory, we we, you know, our own mental filters get in the way and lead us down the rabbit hole. So we need to try and make sure that we don't like strong feelings kind of consume us, when using a different style of prose can help us relax a little bit more. Once you're tense and tight, you know, your gut is all over the place, we can't even function properly. Our gut is our, you know, it's part of our central nervous system and it kind of determines how we function as human beings. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a tricky balance, isn't it, to get right? And I think, um, and sometimes we don't get it right and that's okay. Um, the point is we're not meant to, um, be harsh with ourselves when we don't get it exactly right either, you know, because that just complicates things more. You know, we don't need things to be any more complicated. Well, yeah, we do make mistakes, but we're not defined by them, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think very few people in the world, um, are very, are very clear-minded so that they really don't make mistakes very often. I don't think there are that many people that highly evolved. Um, the rest of us are all still, you know, day-to-day, you know, doing our best. Sometimes things don't work out. Sometimes, yeah, we just have to accept that and not complicate it with being self-critical and overthinking it and making a mountain out of a molehill, you know. Yeah, I mean, the key to both these— both these books are, you know, about helping us understand ourselves. Mind what you think and accept how you feel. How would you describe them to our listeners as to the difference between the two? Ah, well, gee, Hazel, I thought that would have been fairly obvious. I know, I know, but if you think about it, a lot of people think that how they think and how they feel are the same. Ah. Really? Help me out here. I'm kind of— I mean, the Mind Book, I think, I did— I mean, the Mind Book is really about the cause of stress and really looks at everyday type of stress and the habits that the mind creates. The Emotions Book is a bit different because This is the stress that arises from emotional feelings, it involves blocking those feelings, pushing them aside, not knowing how to manage them. So the books are different in that the mind book looks at the cause more and which involves a lot of mentally reacting and the feelings book looks at how stress arises when we, um, resist and block our own emotional feedback. See, you completely smashed that. You didn't need me to help in any way, shape, or form. You knew exactly. I'm glad it was clearer. Um, but I like the way that you help break down how we are feeling as well. And kind of, there's a section here where sometimes we get confused about our feelings and we need help to kind of break them down. And there's a section here about, you know, that you need to appreciate that no two feelings— feeling words can mean about the same thing. Feeling embarrassed is not the same as feeling ashamed. Feeling nervous is not the same as feeling terrified. And feeling upset is not the same as feeling annoyed or irritated. And sometimes they all just get bundled into one. It's good to help kind of understand again, you know, our feelings, which is obviously from the Accept How You Feel book. And there are so many parts. I mean, I have— there was a bit— I still want to do this activity myself, and I need to find the time. And you know what, I think I'm probably going to find the time in the UK over the next few weeks, you know, so we're all going to be locked down. But using the circles to identify how you're feeling more clearly. Do you want to explain to us this concept? Yeah, look, that is far more useful than it sounds, actually. I've done that with a lot of people over many years and with all age ranges and to varying degrees of detail, depending on the person. And what we're aiming for. But when we get all tied up in knots and confused and overwhelmed, everything is a bit of a mishmash in our mind or about our feelings towards an emotional issue or something. And the circle works because in breaking down a particular issue into different thoughts and feelings for different reasons, uh, in each part, a bit like, you know, um, pizza pieces. You can then stand back and get a bit of an overview, and it's, it's actually quite a relief to a lot of people who felt overwhelmed. They suddenly have more clarity. That in itself is really helpful. Sometimes people get a lot of relief out of the fact that they understand something about themselves or an issue more. Sometimes it's just very validating to write about your different feelings in this way, in a circle. And I think it's more effective than writing down, say, a list in some way. Journaling is obviously very useful, and I— but I think this can be used in combination with journaling and very helpful because it can be a starting point about something. So it's just, it's just a very simple and good way to get something out of your head and onto paper and to be able to get a different perspective really. Well, I think the idea that it's quite visual as well, but it is, it is unjumbling what is going on in your head, which, you know, it can always help. I mean, I, if I'm really struggling and I, you know, there seems to be a lot of brain fog, if I write it down I feel so much better because you're emptying the thoughts. And sometimes you don't want to stop thinking about these thoughts in case you forget them, because, you know, you'll then panic. But if you write it down, you know, you've got them to refer to. And it's like, it's like a Ctrl+Alt+Delete of your brain, of your mind. And I remember when I did a journaling exercise, it was Sarah Adams, The Life Edit. I don't know if you've heard about it. No. And she asks everybody for 30 days to write in between, for 5 and 15 minutes a day, to help them sort their life out. And it is all about writing. And she does focus on the fact, she says, listen, you don't have to be a good writer, and I don't— you don't have to put the writing anywhere. It's about compartmentalizing your feelings and getting it out. And it's cathartic, it is unjumbling. What is going on? And I think the idea of the whole— the circle, it is more visually appealing as well. Yeah, it's a bit primal, isn't it? Primordial, I think, is probably a better word. It's, um, yeah, I mean, the circle is innately something that we resonate with at a much deeper unconscious level, I think. So it, it speaks to us, and it's— it it has an organizing potential inherently in it, I think. And there is, um, I'd like to point out, you kind of talk about people on a multifaceted level as well, because we're not all the same. We're not all going to be able to deal with things the same or be able to heal the same or have different needs once life circumstances— we are multifaceted, different likes and dislikes and strengths and weaknesses, and you kind of focus on this. Now, contrary opinions and feelings about ourselves. So it's— I like the way that you kind of approach everybody rather than— it's not one size fits all. You kind of address a lot of different areas, and you kind of say, this might not work for you, but maybe this would work for you, and instead. How did you kind of come about the way that you structured this book and how you wanted to kind of get across to people? Because it is— you kind of say, you know, you don't need to do this this way, maybe this way is going to work better for you, or this, that, whatever. And I think it's a lot easier because otherwise people will read a book and they'll go, that's not going to work for me, and they kind of lose tolerance and kind of move on. But you've managed to get around that, I feel. Oh, thank you. I think it's just a reflection of how complicated we are as individuals, isn't it? That some things work for us at different times in different ways and people do respond differently. So I think it just came out of working with people quite closely for so long and recognising that some things resonated with them and Some things didn't. Some things people latched onto straight away and they were like, yeah, that's great, that's really helpful. And other people were like, mm, not so sure. So yeah, I think I tried to keep the books informative but also the practical side open enough that people would be willing to try and find the things that, you know, could work for them, because anything that is helpful is, is good, I think. You know, that was the purpose of me writing them. That is the thing though, isn't it? People have got to be willing, because it is changing. Both books are about changing your mindset. I did— you know what, one of the first parts that I read that really kind of got me. It was an interesting point that kind of struck me, and you know what, in hindsight, yes, it is obvious. It's that you pointed out is that what we look for in others, we often find. So if you're looking for those who are smiling at you, that is who you'll notice more. If you're looking for people who are offering you positivity, that is what you'll find more. If you're assuming everyone's going to be negative about you or judging you, that's what you're going to look for. And we need to change our our mindset. I've got a friend who always says, you know, why don't I ever have successful friendships? And I'm like, you're thinking about the ones that went wrong, but you've got millions that are working. Not millions, that's ridiculous. But you have, you know, you need to focus on the positive. You have lots of fantastic friends that will do anything for you. And she was focusing on the wrong part. Why don't you look at it this way and how many people you have you know, your phone's constantly going, people asking you to spend time with you. And it's just a case of we just need to remind ourselves that we're looking possibly for the negative element. And with what's going on in the world at the moment, there are a lot of people that are struggling, and there is a lot of negativity out there, especially in the media. And I've, you know, one of my friends was struggling horrifically because she was working for a particular financial magazine and it was kind of affecting her because all she saw was the horrific financial implications of what's going on. I'm like, you, you need to watch Saturday Night Live a little bit more. You need to watch comedies, you know. You need to change your mindset and look for something, you know. What you bring into your psyche is, is very important. Um, so, you know, look for people that are smiling, don't look for people that are kind of looking down at you, because there's always going to be somebody who's just a little bit miserable, and you just need to try and, you know, let that brush— just don't look for it. It's a bit like the law of attraction, isn't it? It is, but I'd probably just refine that a bit too, Hazel, in that a lot of people really— it's a big leap to go from a particular type of negative thinking over to the positive. You know, I see this all the time. People have got low self-esteem and, you know, they can't just suddenly say, "I've got good self-esteem," and try and build themselves up that way, or, you know, they feel really, you know, low in their self-worth and their value around people and friends and then trying to convince themselves that they're popular. So when we swing, try and swing, I think, from a negative kind of mental stance, um, right over to the positive, it can feel quite false to a lot of people, and quite rightly so, because there's a strong part of the mind that's just, you know, continually resisting that. So I think, um, my suggestion is that people move towards just balancing it a bit. I mean, if you have a negative thought about something, you know, I'm not this, or I'm not that, or I'm not enough, or I don't have this enough, is to then just balance it with something that's a little bit more positive. So you're moving in the direction that you want. Because we get into dangerous territory, I think, when we really try too hard to convince ourselves of something that we're not quite ready to believe yet. And the danger is that we will then vacillate between those extremes. Yeah. And, and that's what happens. You see that all the time with, with, with people who are quite anxious. You know, one minute they're on cloud nine, and then the next minute they're in the, you know, in the pits of despair. And so, you know, people can really swing too widely. And I think what we want to do is move in the— always just try and move in the direction that we want by just, you know, modifying things a bit and look— looking for something that balances, you know, balances us in a different way. So for example, your friend who, who might be having thoughts that she's lonely or not well-liked enough or doesn't have enough friends or whatever it is, to then, as soon as she becomes aware of that on her mind, to then balance it with, okay, but I've got this person in my life and they're a really good friend, and, you know, I've got a few other people too, or, or, um, I know a few people like me. Do you know what I mean? So you can't— so I, I think that works more effectively in the long run, actually. Than trying to force ourselves to notice something. I think you can do that in the end, um, when you are already in a more balanced mental emotional state. I think then you can go for gold and start really pushing forward into that positive territory. But if you— but, you know, we've all got these issues in us, we've all got these unresolved difficult areas that we're trying to overcome. And when we identify those dark aspects, I think just moving more gently— it's a bit like, you know, the hare and the tortoise. I think if we move a little bit more gently, we get there in the end. Yeah, it was about gradual change, and which is why yo-yo dieting is terrible, you know. I had this fantastic book where it had so many different different things that you could change in your eating habits to make you healthy. And I was like, well, that's just way too much. And I just started doing one or two for a couple of weeks, and it was so incredibly easy. And now, you know, you just introduce things and gradually change our mindset. Otherwise, you know, these people that go on really strict diets and then they completely binge for two months and they have to go back to the diet again. I mean, there is no stability be in that feeling or way of living or mindset in any way, shape, or form. And I mean, this is why I've kind of curled back pages in both books that I need to remind myself to change the way I speak to myself instead of, oh, I'm just so emotionally exhausted. No, I'm feeling a little bit— yeah. And so this is— all these pages are going to stay turned back so that every now and again I'll go back and, you know, these books are now finished. They'll probably stay at the side of my power plate, and every now and again I'll just flick through and go, "Ah, I've not been doing that one for a bit." I'll go back to it. Do you know what? Maybe not even the power plate. Don't take this badly, I might keep it at the side of the toilet, just something to remind myself of every now and again. I don't mind, not offended. But it is one of those books where, especially with, you know, the bits that really kind of resonated with me, I did kind of turn the pages back to kind of remind me. And it is good to go back to books like this and just kind of go, yeah, I need to remind myself to change that language, to kind of, to remind myself what I should be looking out for. I mean, a really good example actually of what I mentioned before about what we sometimes look out for, um, is what we bring in is, do you know when you hear people say, oh no, something bad's happened at the beginning of the day, that means that the rest of the day is going to be completely ruined because once it's kind of slightly down, that's what we notice a bit more, isn't it? Whereas if you start the day off well, you're like, yes, we know that we're going to smash this out of the park. And that's kind of an example of, you know, it affecting what you look out for. If you have a really good few days, you're constantly, you're in a good mood and you're looking out for good things. It's important. I did write a blog quite recently recently about knowing what invigorates you, knowing what— whether it's comedy on Netflix, whether it's listening to some live music, or just sitting in a park and staring at people going past. If you know what thing resets you a bit, just do it. It's so important. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And, and And, you know, like, it can be comedy, it can be a breath of fresh air, it can be, you know, doing something with friends, it can be spending time alone. And, you know, sometimes just lying in a— lying outside and looking at the clouds is incredibly relaxing, actually. And not that long ago, I took a week off because I was quite physically exhausted and inexplicably, and I just thought I'm not, you know, optimally functioning and I just need to do this. And I just took the week off, couldn't go anywhere. And so for a few evenings, I got the beanbag out on the outside and just watched the sun go down as I was lying there in the beanbag and looking at the sun's reflection in the trees. It was so relaxing. And I was, you know, I think it's the simple things sometimes that, you know, really make the difference in the end. Yeah, you know what, what I, what I love, and it was quite well known, especially before COVID you know, if I was a little bit stressed and I needed to control my environment a bit more, I would cook. And so when my friends knew I was stressed, they were like, right, you're stressed, but that means you're cooking us dinner, right? Because all you do is cook constantly. We've not been able to do this in COVID because we can't have had people, we can't have people around our houses. And, but people always just assumed I was extremely sociable, so they're not understanding why I'm not that interested in going out to the pubs and doing this, that, and whatever. I'm quite sociable in the way that I like to either be in my own home or go into other people's houses and just cook constantly and socialize in that way. And It's quite interesting, some of the things that we knew we needed to keep us calm that we can't do, and we don't always understand the actual nitty-gritty of what it is that's making us calm. So obviously I like to cook, but you can't go and do— you can't, although it's based around socialising, I've not been able to do that in COVID because my kids don't care what I cook for them. They're just like, make it big, make it tasty, we don't really care. Whereas my friends are like, yeah, she's going to do this, she's going to flumbo this. 'Da da da da da.' So I've missed that concept. Yeah, well that's multilayered, isn't it? You know, there's a whole social aspect in there as well. But yeah, I think, you know, what people are going through at the moment is radically challenging, isn't it, in different ways, you know. And in some ways it's maybe forcing a little bit of self-reflection on how— on finding alternative ways to, you know, relax and enjoy themselves, actually. Yeah, I mean, I've just been staying in on Fridays and Saturday nights and just reading a book and chilling out, and my friend's like, what's wrong with her? I can't cook, so there's nothing going out. What I do like to ask ask all of my guests on Get Booked is, um, what would be your 3 well-being tips for our listeners? Okay, my 3 well-being tips. Number 1 would have to be breathing. It's the— it is the most important by far. People who don't breathe well just aren't as well, full stop. So that's the priority. If you don't breathe well naturally and you tend to breath hold or you're aware that you're anxious, that needs to be addressed at some point. But that would be definitely number one. Number two, I think that you've raised the thing that's resonated with you, Hazel, which is is, you know, really monitoring our self-talk and particularly being really careful about self-criticism and giving, you know, fuel to our worrying. But any kind of self-talk, that's the second tip. And my third one would be just to really stay grounded. But what I mean by that is just to get really physical. Um, the more physically present and aware we are, uh, the healthier we are too. And so, and that's also, um, quite multi-layered because it— the more physical you are, the more you can be in tune with your emotional, um, aspects of yourself. The more physical you are, the more likely you are to be engaging in something physical that, that is really helpful. And you're more likely to be in the present moment. So they're my tips. I mean, yeah, brilliant. There was— I found it quite appalling that when I was reading the section on breathing, there was like 3 major types of breathing. Exercises that you wanted people to do. Was it 3? It was 3, wasn't it? Ah, look, I can't remember. I haven't read the books for a while. I put them away. I did just— the Be Still one. Have you tried the Be Still exercise? Because that is fantastic, by the way. Yes, but it's one of those ones where I've turned the pages back because I remember like I was I was trying to do the breathing exercise. I'm like, I don't possibly have time to do this breathing exercise. I'm like, that's appalling. I mean, there's whole books just on breathing and the actual quality, the, the fact that people can actually give birth a lot easier if they are breathing properly. It is that incredibly important. And I remember sitting there going, I can't believe I don't even have time to do these breathing exercises. So I turned the page back and thought, yeah, I'll do this at another point. But breathing, it is what I have started doing actually, even in the gym when I come to the end. I have now started to, instead of just rush, rush, rush, starting to lay flat and breathe a bit better, and my back is feeling better. Sometimes slowing down is actually better for you. But yeah, the breathing and the getting out and about as well, you, the whole idea of fresh air and exercise that just actually makes you feel like you're being productive as well. Yeah, it's being physical, isn't it? It's, it's, and yeah, it's noticing your surroundings and it's, it's noticing the smells and it's listening to the sounds around you without thinking about them. Yeah, just hearing rather than analyzing. You know, there's a big difference actually when we're outside, and even if we're in a noisy, crowded environment, we can still have quite a peaceful internal world as we're moving through it by hearing and being aware without thinking about everything that we're hearing. Do you know what? Do you not find it incredible that so many people wear AirPods all the time and they're constantly listening to music, just even if they just pop to the shops or go from one shop to another, and it stops and starts? Half the time if people interact with somebody at a cash desk, they quickly tap their earphones to turn it off, and there's, there's very little silence going on, and we're becoming less able to have silence. Yes, and I, I, that does concern me a bit actually, because it's, it's going to have repercussions. On people's ability to be more present and aware because they're internally more mentally preoccupied. So yeah, I don't see it as a very good trend personally. Yeah, it is definitely quite worrying. I see it in my teenage boy as well. He's constantly got his hood up with his earphones in, even when we go out for a walk. Talk. So I kind of prod him until he takes them out. I said, I can either prod you and you can listen to music, or you can talk to me. Um, I'm gonna try and talk to you at the worst times possible, but you might as well just take your AirPods out and get this all done now. I mean, I have to be a really annoying parent, but it just— yeah, I— a bit— all adults as well, they're always wearing them. But I love your tips. I think they're absolutely fantastic, and I'm sure our listeners Again, they are relatively common sense, but we just sometimes don't have time to assess what we should be doing, do we? Yeah, and I think again it's coming back to the highlighting the one that sort of would work for you and then making a point of making that a new habit, you know, introducing one idea slowly and gradually until that becomes much more natural and normal and then introducing something else. I think that works. Otherwise, people can get very annoyed and frustrated with themselves because they can't seem to implement everything at once and get the change they want, and that's more dissatisfying and disempowering in the end. I have found, especially in lockdown, because we've been wanting to entertain ourselves, we've over-entertained ourselves to distract us from what's happening in the world. And I find that, I find it hard to even just watch TV now. I have to watch TV, do Twitter, possibly do a little bit of Instagram and answer my WhatsApp messages at the same time. And it's, we normally kind of de-stress and kind of get rid of tech a little bit when we go on holiday, if we're not Instagramming the beautiful location. And a lot of us aren't doing that, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, when someone's on holiday because they put it all over Instagram. But a lot of us aren't having that opportunity and we've We've got to be on tech even more because we're all working from home, and it's kind of really encouraging terrible habits and not letting us engage with how we are feeling more because we're just constantly distracting ourselves. And it's not— we kind of had to distract ourselves, otherwise we'd have gone a little bit too crazy if we involved ourselves too much with what's going on. Yeah, but, you know, We could think of it this way, Hazel. Not that long ago, we didn't have any of this indoor entertainment, remember? You know, our grandparents and great-grandparents, what did they do in the evenings? You know, they didn't have computers and they didn't have, um, you know, um, television sets and Netflix and on-demand, you know, movies. But they did all right. So I think it's It seems like we need this stuff, but it's been a very short amount of time that this has dominated our society. And I know it is easy to come home and to just get straight on technology or to be at home all day and be on technology in a lockdown situation, but I think You know, particularly when we're a bit older, I think we do remember, well, you know, our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, they didn't have all of that. I guess it's going to be much harder though for the generations coming through now because they've grown up with it and they're immersed in it, you know. I see, I do make my kids play hangman when we go out to restaurants and I do make them play I Spy, although they're terrible at it. At it. And I'm in a situation where, you know, my kids, every 2 weeks they go and spend a weekend with their dad, and it's very sort of tech-based. And I understand, you know, if you don't see your kids that often, when you do, you want them to do whatever they're doing so they're having a great time. But I have to kind of— I went— I go through a process whenever they come home on the Sunday. I play board games with them to kind of Ctrl+Alt+Delete their minds. To bring them back round again because I'd realized it was causing problems at school and the next coming down off this kind of tech buzz. So it is problematic, it is, you know, the proof is out there. However, and rather ironically, the only reason that you'll be able to answer this next question is because you'll have seen them on social media, but who do you think in the public eye is a good agent for change, you know, smashing it out of the park, just a really good example of a human being? Oh, without doubt, Eckhart Tolle. Oh wow, yeah, okay. Yeah, that's a no-brainer. I love it when people can come up with an answer straight away. Yeah, I mean, he's, he's on my list on Pinterest where all I do is just go, right, okay, What's next? He walks the talk, you know. He's seriously someone to pay attention to. But I mean, not that I've, you know, I'm an avid follower of anyone, I have to admit. But I did read his books years ago. And I did go to one of his seminars when he came out to Australia years ago. And he's a very funny man. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to be for people to listen, you know. You can't always just say something profound. You've got to have a fantastic way of getting it across to people. I think it's just innate. I think when people are, you know, really present and, you know, really clear-minded, then it just flows, you know. Their sense of humor just flows from you know, at the same time as they can express deep wisdom, you know. It's, it's so— yeah, how incredible that you can find something that you not only love doing, and you can tell, you know, when you watch him that he loves what he's doing and he's kind of— it's making him feel alive. And just finding that and being so content must be incredible. I mean, you obviously love what you do as well. You've written a couple of books to kind of, uh, exemplify that? I mean, have you got more books that are in the works? Oh, well, uh, depending on how well these books do, I, I do have an idea for a child's book, a young children's book, to get some of these concepts across. That would be fun. Um, and I was talking to a colleague who was, you know, saying good things about my book and my books, and she started talking to me about how I needed to write another one. And I had had thoughts— I have had thoughts about it, and I've been writing notes, but I'm not committed to anything at the moment. Okay, okay. And what was the reason that you did them kind of separately rather than two different sections, if you see what I mean. I think it would have been too much to take in. Okay, yeah. And also, when people come to see me as patients, it's quite interesting, but people often come in and what they talk about really kind of helps me to work out what tack to take with them really, because because either they will talk about emotional feelings or they'll be talking in a very feeling way or they'll be talking about their thoughts and be more mentally preoccupied. So people I think will gravitate towards the area that they are most concerned about or they feel like they want to address and so it made sense in the end to to make the book shorter rather than combine them and to separate them. I hope that was good. Yeah, I, I, do you know what, especially when it's, there's quite a lot of mind work and there's a lot of work to do on yourself, I think the bigger books make it a little bit too overwhelming. Yeah, yeah, I didn't want people to lose interest in the first half of the book, are, you know, really trying to provide some information and understanding before they get to the helpful practical half. So I kept that in mind, you know, that trying to keep them around 200 pages would be— would hopefully achieve that for a lot of people, you know, that they would, yeah, keep going. I thought it was the right amount, yeah. They weren't too chunky, but they weren't so flippant that they felt like a pamphlet, you know. They're, yeah, they're 180 pages each, aren't they? Yeah, roughly that. Yeah. And, and they do look very pretty as well, I must say. They're going to look fantastic in the toilet. Not in the toilet, side of the toilet. Thanks, Hazel. But I was really— I do love the covers as well. I think they're awesome. And also particularly because I wanted the books to be, particularly the emotional book, or actually both, I wanted the books to also be appealing to men, not just women. And I couldn't see how men would pick up a book about feelings unless it had a black cover without swear words on it, you know. Yeah, wow. Have you had a lot of feedback from men and women? Yes, I've had some good feedback from men as much as women. And I think, I think because I think there's a lot of examples throughout the books that, you know, I've tried to use a lot of examples with both sexes, and it becomes really clear, I think, that men and women have, you know, a lot of the same difficulties. Mm. They do, but also it's the way— we have the same difficulties, but how we process them and how we can actually talk about our feelings are very different. It's definitely more of a female trait to be able to discuss their feelings and what's going on with people, which is why you know, there is a, there is a huge crisis, and why men's radio station really focuses on trying to get men to talk, because we may experience the same things. And yeah, everyone's different, you know, we might deal with things slightly differently, um, but, but men just don't have that arena to chat as often. They don't sit in a pub and talk about their feelings, whereas You know, I could talk about my feelings just going out and picking up, you know, the post from the Royal Mail lady that comes down my road, you know. We are a bit more open to it, so it's— that's something that needs to be worked on. I do, I have a walking group. We all go out with our dogs on a morning and we spend an hour just shooting the breeze and kind of talking about everything, and we come away feeling a lot lighter. And all the, you know, men that are connected to these women go, "Oh, we wish we had something like that," but there's just not a chance they'll do it. Yeah, that may change in the future though. I think— I hope so. Yeah, yeah, I think women have been more fortunate, but it's been women's business, I think, to sit around and talk about, you know, emotional topics, whereas it hasn't been men's business. And yeah, I mean, there is to some degree a lot of help with talking about feelings, but I still think we need to learn to manage them more directly, which is what I wrote about in the books. That, you know, it's still a sort of missing link that how we're meant to manage feelings is really up to us as individuals, and we can free ourselves without talking about them. Them. And talking about feelings is really only useful when you are very physically present and using it as an opportunity for processing at the same time. Otherwise, talking about feelings I think can— well, it still can be useful, but it's not anywhere near as useful. Well, it depends on what you're taking in and whether you're just igniting the feelings more by drawing more attention to them, or how it's affecting the person you're speaking to as well. There are so many different elements that kind of have to be thought about. I do— we haven't even discussed— the hour is absolutely flying by, and we haven't even discussed yet how people can find out more about you. About me? Yeah, websites. No, I don't have a website. But I will be— social media, no Instagram. I know, I know, it's, it's, it's, it's not what people want to hear, I guess. But I probably have so many people going, ah, that'd be great. I know, I wrote the books, but I really didn't expect to need to promote myself in the process. Actually, it wasn't part of the deal when I wrote the to myself. And so I'm still hoping that I can get away with it without, you know, any of that. Well, what I will do is I'll make sure that on my Twitter and Instagram feed, which people can find through hazelbutterfield.com, I'm going to be putting a link up to Amazon for where they can find the book, where they can get hold of it. There'll be various bits over Facebook. I mean, unfortunately, because of what I do, I've got them all. You name it. I mean, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter. I think we've even got like 3 Instagram accounts. You know, it is quite ridiculous. But, you know, while I'm talking about the show, we will have— I'll have the link up there so people can go and buy it and make sure that they get involved. Look, you know, it's coming up to Christmas. Give somebody the gift of mindfulness. Yes, we can do that. That sounds like a good idea. It's— yeah, Christmas is not far away actually, is it? It does seem to be, you know, flying by this year really. But thank you, Hazel. I would appreciate you posting the link because I don't mean to be obstructive in not having a website or a social media. Blogging kind of follow-up, following crowd or anything. I just, it just, yeah. I'm so incredibly jealous though, Karen. I mean, imagine how much more time I would have to actually live if I didn't have social media. I mean, I'm quite annoyed that my son, while it was raining ridiculously for 2 or 3 days, we just spent a lot of time watching movies, and he made me watch The Emoji Movie, which had Candy Crush on it, which made me start playing Candy Crush. And this is hours of my life I won't get back. Like, so Candy Crush and social media, I've got to have it. But if you can get away with it, just, just, you know, I'll put it up on mine. Stay away from it. You— I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous you can get away with it. Well, yeah, but you're in that kind of public job. It's part of your job description, isn't it, really? You have to do it. And but yeah, I think having 3 Instagrams, is that really necessary, Hazel? Like, well, I mean, I don't understand Instagram, but is it, is it necessary to have 3 of them? It sounds, it sounds— Let me explain this to you. I've got one for the Get Booked Show, I've got one that's mine that also promotes all, all the shows and the kind of blogging and writing I do as a whole, and then the third one, which is ridiculous, ridiculously important is my dog Charlie, um, Charlie Princess Pants. She has her own Instagram. How is she supposed to communicate with all the dogs around our local area if she doesn't have Instagram? How are people gonna know, you know, how ridiculous she is if she can't post about it all the time? I mean, that's true, that's true. We can always find, we can always find a reason. Yeah, I mean, you know, you would be surprised how many friends she has on Instagram and how, you know, they talk to each other. It's ridiculous. And sometimes she even Instagrams when she's asleep. It's magic. Yeah, it is. That is magic. Look, I could be missing out, and— but I'm prepared to take the risk at this stage in my life anyway. So I think I've just made— I think you've just made— well, I've just made a good case for you to stick with not having social media. It's, I mean, it is absolutely bonkers. I must say though, the writing community is fabulous. They're so supportive of each other that I do find that quite heartwarming, and I do, you know, find out about lots of authors to come on this show through there, and I do love that. We've got literally less than a minute left, Is there a book that you're reading that you've loved by somebody else that you would say, ah, love that too? Oh dear, no, probably, probably nothing that would be in the mainstream actually, Hazel. I tend to read a bit of esoteric stuff, sci-fi, classics, nothing that springs to mind. Sorry. Oh no, well, not to worry. Sorry. No, it's great. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been incredible. Thank you and enjoy your day. Thank you, Hazel, for having me. Bye. You're welcome. Bye-bye.