Get Booked – Hope Virgo Hope Through Recovery

Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield, and this is Get Booked for Women's and Men's radio station. Here on Get Booked, we love talking to authors about their new releases, going into detail about the topics covered, their inspiration, the mental health and wellbeing elements, and giving you the extra special insight into a different book and the author each week. On today's show, we'll be talking to Hope Virgo, award-winning mental health campaigner and author of Stand Tall, Little Girl. Hope battled anorexia for 4 years, which ended in a year-long stay in a mental health hospital. Since then, she's been campaigning for better access to mental health treatment and working with psychiatrists to help young girls. And her new book, Hope Through Recovery, was released on the 1st of April. This is an honest, helpful, in-depth, and thoughtfully written book, not just for those with an eating disorder, but for all of us, to help us gain insight into those around us who may be suffering, demystifying what an eating disorder looks like and what the goals are. Hope, hi, thank you for joining us. No worries, thanks so much for having me. You're very welcome, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading your book because I know so many people who've had eating disorders, and I don't just mean the teens that I know, you know, people into their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 50s. I myself have had issues, and it's just, it's interesting that we sometimes, we think that one box fits all, and it doesn't, does it? There's so many different elements to an eating disorder. Yeah, you're so, it's so right, and I think that's the hard thing is so often in society we think that eating disorders only affect kind of white teenage girls, and they have to look a certain a certain size or a certain shape, but actually they present themselves in kind of people from all different backgrounds. They affect both males and females. And I think particularly at the moment, what I'm kind of seeing is more and more people are struggling with eating disorders and kind of on that spectrum of disordered eating. And I do think one of the reasons for that is because we've normalized this really unhealthy kind of relationship with food and with our bodies. Yeah, and, and there's, you know, what I have found is that there are, there seem to be more workers in secondary schools helping girls through these teenage years because they need so much more support for things through things like Love Island with these perfect bodies. And we've all seen the pictures of Kylie Jenner, and it's, it's interesting that, you know, especially some of the dialogue that you talk about in Hope Through Recovery about people say, oh wow, you look good, have you lost some weight? Weight and the negative connotations of that. And we don't actually think about it. No, we don't. And it's so frustrating because I think we— and I've seen as well, like, even with, obviously in England at the moment, kind of we're easing lockdown and people are already kind of commenting on bodies and weight and talking about how much weight they're going to lose as we get out of lockdown. And it's like none of that stuff is helpful for anyone. But the thing is, people generally don't mean any harm by it and they just don't understand. And people are scared. Scared sometimes to open their mouth in case they say something wrong. And this is the issue as well with a lot of mental health issues, not just with eating disorders, that, you know, people need to be honest with people so they know that they're struggling, but yet then people go, 'Well, I'm scared I'm going to say something wrong,' and they quite often retreat. And that, that is a huge issue. And the more we read books like yours, it helps us to understand what we can and can't do, or that having an open dialogue and just saying 'What should I be doing to help you? What do you want to hear from me?' Yeah, no, it's so true, and I think it is sometimes about setting those boundaries and kind of feeling confident enough to set those boundaries, kind of asserting yourself a little bit as things change. And what, what I found as well in your book, which was fantastic, is it is meant for everybody. It's meant for those with eating disorders, those who have them in the family, friends who just want to understand more. It's got fantastic activities in there, and I thought that I was quite mindful of what I can and should be saying to people, but I've learned so much. And it's also helped me to understand some of my anxieties as well, because I have friends who have eating disorders. And, but, but it's quite often something that's quite secretive and they only tell certain people because there's an embarrassment about it. And People don't always want to admit it, but then when I've had friends who have said something to these people and I have cringed, and even I've even felt angry with friends just because they didn't know and they've said the wrong thing, and I know that that wrong thing is going to make them spiral for about 2 or 3 weeks. Yep. No, it's so true. And I think that's what's so difficult with eating disorders is so much of what we say can be interpreted by the individual as something that's really triggering. I know for me, Even when people tell me that I look really healthy, my brain has a tendency to completely distort that word. And it's not the fault of someone else. But I think sometimes in recovery, and with that, you kind of have to start to own your triggers a little bit and to kind of think, actually, do you know what, like this, that was a, that was something that affected me, but I'm not going to let it take over kind of like a personal hold on my life. I think What you said in your book and the exercise, you know, the charts that you provide as well about knowing your triggers, um, I actually read that part just before I went to bed and I then realized, I mean, a lot of this book you can actually use a lot of the activities, not even just for eating disorder, it's just, it's more to do about, you know, the biggest gift we can give to ourselves is to actually understand ourselves. And I read the bit about triggers and I suddenly actually started writing down my triggers, especially in lockdown for things that make me sometimes behave erratically or get upset or try and distract myself unhealthily rather than dealing with an issue. And I ended up being awake quite a bit of the night going, I recognize these triggers, these triggers. And I started to realize that there was something that I needed to deal with. And yeah, it might seem quite simple, but sometimes we need a bit of a reminder to— yes, mindfulness is such a huge thing at the moment, but that section on triggers, it really helped me. And then I sat down the next day and chatted to various friends and my children about things that have been going on and was just balls-out honest. Yeah. And I had the best day yesterday because I faced it head-on. That's so, so interesting. Yeah, I think that is sometimes what it is, is like bringing it forward. How did your children respond when you were so honest? Really well, because if you're honest they can't get angry, they can't get— they can't go, oh, Mum, you've been so boring, you're saying this, this, this. And I just, you know, I mean, I'm lucky that they're 11 and 14, but actually saying to them, actually, yes, Mum might be a little bit tetchy at the moment, but this is why— the giving the kids the power to understand rather than just saying, do as I say. That's where the frustration lies, isn't it? And it's given the kids control. So I mean, an example of something that I did, um, I was— we like, we like control, don't we? Especially with mental health, we need to control what's going on. And so for example, the kids saying, you're always asking us to do stuff, and you're always asking us to help around the house, and you're always asking to do this, this, this, this. And I said, well, right, do you know what then? Will you be in charge of this? If I— if you think I'm asking you to do too much, why don't you say what you're going to do without me having to ask, and you do it, and then I won't ask you anymore. And the reason why I'm asking you to do this is because I'm worried about lockdown. We've all basically been stuck together, and I need us to express ourselves slightly differently. We're coming out of lockdown, and I'm worried about the repercussions of the last year, and that worry's coming out with me needing to control things. Do you understand? They're like, oh, right, yes, we do understand. And it was explaining to them why I might be annoying. I mean, all parents are annoying. I mean, we just open our mouths and we're annoying. But, but helping them to understand why I was feeling how I was feeling, you know, knowledge is power. And, you know, it's very hard to argue with honesty. It's when we just turn around and say, you know, do as I say, not as I do, that you'll get a grunt back. Yeah, it must be. I can't imagine having children at the moment. I'm like, and I do think, like, just with the honesty particularly, it's so important. And I think what I'm realizing is actually during kind of the pandemic, we've all experienced obviously, like, different things and different levels of trauma. And like, right now when stuff is easing, it's like, actually, if we just keep being honest with how we're feeling on a day-to-day basis and what does and doesn't work for us, then it, I think it will help just to kind of alleviate some of that anxiety. Yeah, and understanding, I mean, that was the thing with the triggers, I was suddenly realising actually we can spiral out of control, can't we, if we don't address what's happening. And a very powerful part of your book as well was the language that we use, and when we're tired and frustrated, some of the language we can use towards other people and to ourselves is so damaging, and how we can reframe situations is such a powerful tool. And I think instead of saying, you know, you can just add just one word onto a sentence and it can completely change your mindset and how somebody perceives what you're trying to say. And we can use that with ourselves and with the eating disorders as well. I'm not feeling well. I don't feel in control. 'I don't feel in control at the moment.' Just adding that bit on the end, it doesn't sound like a sentence. Yeah, I know what you mean, actually. I do, I do, I do get that. And I think that's— yeah, I've never— yeah, I don't think I've ever thought about that, but I think it's so true, isn't it? Like, I don't feel in control at the moment, so I want to control XYZ, but instead I'm going to kind of notice that I don't feel in control and then work out why maybe I don't. And actually, it's interesting, what I'm doing at the moment is trying to allow— it's like allowing yourself to feel anything and then kind of noticing those feelings a little bit kind of passing through you and then actually trying to work out what it is that's causing that emotion, if that makes sense. Yeah. Which I think is— it feels— I think it's hard, but the way that I do it actually is kind of writing it down. So I'm like, I feel angry, I feel frustrated. And then I go back through, and instead of like making myself the emotion, I'm like, I kind of do like a little spider diagram, and I'm like, well, I probably feel angry because like XYZ, or I feel out of control because XYZ. And then it just helps you to feel like a little bit more like those emotions aren't owning you. And what I do find, I mean, you talk about journaling a lot as in your exercises and to help. And I find it helps you order your thoughts. If you've just got them all swimming around in your head, it's very hard to actually comprehend what's happening in there. But if you— it's a bit like a brain dump, isn't it? You put it all down, whether it's in a spider diagram, whether you want to do poetry, whether you just want to write something. Nobody has to see this. It's not for a blog. You don't have to write just for somebody else to read it. It can be for yourself. But I find, especially if I've got a lot going on in my head, if I write it down before I go to bed, I'm not sitting there overthinking and being overwhelmed because I know it's written down somewhere and I can go back to it. I don't, I don't have to worry about forgetting what it was that I was thinking about. And when you order your thoughts, you can rationalize them and identify themes. And as I did the other night, identify my triggers. Journaling also helps us if you, if you, if you do it for long enough as well, that's, that can also help you identify your triggers and It's incredible how we all want to start thinking in the middle of the night, and that's the worst time to start thinking through anything. Yeah, I try and write stuff down before bedtime just because it helps me to just kind of stop ruminating when you're lying in bed. Yes, and definitely not going on to social media before you go to bed. Yeah, definitely. And so what I'd like to talk about is I find it quite hard— some of them— I've got, I've got a few different friends who've got eating disorders who like to tackle it completely differently. Now for somebody who's trying to support somebody with an eating disorder, trying to ascertain how much detail and inquiry you need to embrace with somebody can be a minefield, can't it? What advice would you give to somebody who just doesn't know what to say and how to check in? Yeah, really, really good question, and I feel like the first thing to realise is, as friends and family members, our job isn't to fix anyone. Like, it's up to the individual, and the individual doesn't want to be fixed. They don't want any sympathy. They want someone to just be there, kind of walking alongside them, kind of helping cheer them on, And I think as well, like, within that, like, helping them think about those motivations for getting well. But a lot of that will depend on where the individual is at. So if you've got friends who don't kind of admit they're struggling with food and maybe aren't ready to accept that they need that additional support, in those situations it is about having a direct conversation about their behaviors, reminding them that you're not going to constantly be watching their kind of every step around food, but that you're there when they're ready to talk about it. And within that, remembering that the eating disorder isn't about food, it's not about weight, but it's about something kind of else that's going on. And within that, it's, it's so important that actually we're giving them that space to feel really, really heard and really understood. And then I think if you do have friends that you know who are on that kind of journey to recovery and on that road to recovery, it is then about kind of challenging their— supporting them to kind of challenge their thinking, like working out how you can support them best. And I think particularly at the moment with lockdown easing, one way of doing that would be to actually kind of assess whether they want to go out for dinners, whether they want to see menus beforehand. And I think as lockdown eases, it's important to actually work out whether we need to kind of be giving people menus beforehand beforehand, whether we need to be working out how that looks for them. And something that I'm encouraging people at the moment who have eating disorders or are in recovery to do is actually going out for kind of trial snacks with people so that you have a little bit of kind of space to eat something in front of someone else, because we probably haven't done that for quite a long time. Yeah, getting back into the swing of things is daunting on so many different levels. I did actually take a friend out for her birthday And I booked 4 different restaurants and I sent her every single one. I said, which one's going to suit you best? And I'll cancel the rest and just kind of left it at that. That's the kind of thing I think people want to, want to have the chance to do and the chance to kind of explore that, because I think the problem with eating disorders is they're so secretive and so isolating and there's so much shame around it that actually we need to be giving people that space to still feel included and involved. And I think by doing that and doing what you've done, it then allows people the chance to go to stuff and at the same time kind of keeps them, I guess, safe in their heads from like the feelings of not being in control and not, yeah, not feeling like they're able to go to stuff. But I think it's interesting. So where I'm at in my recovery, I now kind of encourage my friends to be a little bit more spontaneous with food around me in certain situations, depending on obviously like who I'm with and kind of what the relationship's like. Within that, I encourage them to not plan out everything with me, but that's just where I'm at. So I think sometimes it is then about checking in with those people that we are supporting and giving them a little bit of space to think, actually, do you know what, I need that additional support today, I need to have something around that as well. Yeah, I have. I mean, the joy is that if you've known someone long enough, you sometimes know how to tackle a situation a little bit more, but if it's something new new that's come into the relationship. That's, I mean, it's a learning curve, isn't it? And I must stress, this book really helps everybody to help other people with disorders. It's, you know, just understanding what's going on, thinking about what you say as well, you know. Even if somebody doesn't know somebody with an eating disorder, they're not actually looking to find advice to support them, what I've learned with your book about the certain things that you should and shouldn't say, I just think is completely invaluable. But I I do have a friend who, still do have a friend, who she's been suffering for quite some time and when we used to go out on an evening and say, right, are we going straight to a bar or do you want to go out for food first? She'd say, right, I'm not in that space where I want to go to a restaurant. And I'd say, right, okay, well, how about then I make us something before we go out so that you've eaten something, but then you can tell me what you're willing to eat and I will make that. And we did it that way. Yeah, and I think that's also really good because it's, again, it's allowing that person the chance to be involved in something. But it does kind of— it's still having that conversation, and it's always— it's a tricky subject. I remember at one point, and I will always remember it, and she has mentioned it since, where we were trying on each other's clothes, and for some reason something of mine didn't fit her, and she was was so upset for the rest of the time because she thought that her body had changed shape. And I now realize that was the most stupidest thing that I, I could have ever done, but I wouldn't have known until I'd done it. Yeah, and I don't, I don't, like, I think it's, that's not your fault it happened that way. Um, I, yeah, I find clothing stuff quite difficult because I think we We get a lot of our self-worth, don't we, from being a certain size and a certain shape. And obviously eating disorders aren't about that. But because you're not feeling good enough already, it kind of, yeah, it kind of brings that to light, I guess. But I think the clothing one's a really interesting one in itself, isn't it? Because we all have clothes in our wardrobe that don't fit properly, that are too small for us, that maybe we wore on one kind of evening out and we felt really awful. And it just, it's just silly that we still hold on to that sort of stuff. And I know that it is about getting rid of all of that stuff to make sure that we've just got a, yeah, kind of like a safe space to feel okay and to feel really good about ourselves. But women also, they change shape on a monthly basis. Yeah. You know, especially, you know, our breasts can be bigger for certain times or, you know, there's, there's, there's so much where I mean, I know there's certain times where I just don't try and get in certain outfits because it will kind of make me feel worse about myself. And I, yeah, I don't have an eating disorder. I definitely did when I was younger. But I know, and I know this is a lot of the issues that many people are dealing with at the moment, is that they feel confident when they feel that they look good. Yep. And when we've got confidence, I mean, there's so many people out there, there's a lot of different mental illnesses and wellbeing issues. And I know that I want to be a particular size because I know that when I feel comfortable, I mean, I'm the most awkward person ever. I say the most ridiculous things. I shouldn't be somebody who is on the radio because even I don't know what's going to come out of my mouth sometimes. And, but I know that if I walk out the door on a morning and I like what I'm wearing and I feel like I look good, I walk with more of a bounce in my steps. I have more confidence with speaking to people. If I know that I look terrible or tired or that I really just didn't even check in the mirror before I left and my outfit looks ridiculous, I'm, I normally know I'm going to have a bit of a rubbish day because our confidence affects everything. And then when we panic about that, it's kind of— it can kind of be a self-fulfilling prophecy, can't it? You just kind of— if you don't feel funny, you know you're going to say something funny, then it gets worse and worse and worse. Yeah. So I understand that, yes, we are all a bit obsessed with how we look and our body shape and what we wear, but there's so many different reasons for it. And it's keeping— and it's understanding that and keeping control. Yeah, no, definitely. Control is probably the wrong word. Um, But also I've had, I've changed over the last year or two with how I've been confident, and I get more positive compliments about how I am appearing, not what I necessarily look like, but my, my, um, energy when I don't care as much. That sounds ridiculous, but no, I do totally get that. Yeah, if you're sitting by the side of a pool and you're kind of covering yourself up and you're kind of cowering, that doesn't look attractive. But if you've got a little bit of weight on your tummy and you're loving it and you're running around and jumping, it shines through you like sunbeams. Yeah, no, it does definitely, because you're not— yeah, you're not kind of stressing and looking anxious, and you've got like a bit more of a glow to you, I think. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's so tricky for every single person, and I think we've just got to remember that we are individuals. Um, and what I do want to talk about is, um, encouragement. To people, for people with eating disorders? Because it can be counterproductive, can't it? Yeah, no, it can be. And I have realised I've probably made quite a few mistakes in the past. But, you know, when you turn around to somebody and say, 'Oh wow, you're doing so much better,' sometimes that can make the person go, 'Oh, I'm not ready to be dismissed of somebody that I want them to look out for yet.' Yeah, that is so true. And I think quite often with eating disorders, as soon as someone says something like that, we assume they're judging us on our physical appearance or how well we're doing with eating and stuff. And because it takes so much longer for, like, the mental aspect to change when you're in recovery, there's always a long way to go after that. And it is, it is interesting because I think, again, it's about kind of owning that and feeling able to communicate your needs and what is and isn't— like, what is and isn't working for you in that space. But it's so difficult at times to do that. And I know for me, sometimes there's been moments when people have said that. And I'm like, well, no, I'm not. Like, I'm still really struggling, but you just don't know what's going on in my head. And it can make you quite angry. I mean, the anger and frustration of not being able to possibly verbalize that and get that point across. And again, we've discussed, you know, that eating disorders and many other mental health issues can be so private, and the frustration of wanting people to just get it but without actually having to explain it, that's so hard to get across to people. And I'm wondering, what advice would you give to somebody who wants somebody to know that they're struggling but they don't necessarily want to— they don't know how to get that across to them? I think for me what helped was kind of writing it down. So being really matter-of-fact about it, saying, I feel, I feel like this, I've been feeling like this, and I don't want you to interfere, I don't want you to fix me, but I am still struggling with food. And I think sometimes it's like after a meal, maybe just sending someone a text, kind of reiterating that. Yes, so this isn't journaling, this is like emailing people close to you to actually get it across. Yeah, like being proactive with it, I think. Yeah, and I think something else like that really helped me actually was having a bit of a code word at points. So when you've, like, whether it's, I don't know, like whether, yeah, like when you've had a bad day, being able to message someone and say, I feel X, I feel like, and just sending an emoji even, so that they know that that emoji means that things aren't great at the moment and you're still struggling. Yeah. And so that they can be a bit more mindful. Yeah. I think it's really hard. And I think, like, over the pandemic, it's been really difficult because people with eating disorders communicate our kind of needs and our wants through food. And it's like, it's, it's so frustrating that we do that. Like, I find it frustrating. But at the same time, like, unless we're feeling heard and unless we're feeling understood, We're going to keep doing it. So it's kind of like us, I think, as an individual who's in recovery, but people with eating disorders, it's like working out actually how we can get that across where we feel really heard and really understood. But then at the same time, kind of, yeah, I guess having— trying to have those honest conversations and also being honest with ourselves, like being like, do you know what? Like, I'm not— I'm not doing great at the moment. Someone like the person I've told doesn't understand, but that isn't a reason to self-destruct because that's not going to help anyone. And I think sometimes having that really kind of brutal conversation with yourself helps. And I think if then someone does reach out to you and say that something like, I'm really struggling still, I'm not doing great, actually when that happens, it is about kind of like just giving them that space to be heard and giving them that space to explore what that might mean. And I think especially as you've mentioned with, with lockdown as well, we haven't been able to express ourselves properly. We haven't been able to see our friends face to face, which is completely different. And self-care, you know, you talk, you talk, uh, there's a fabulous section in your book about self-care and giving ourselves space and time to do something nice for ourselves. Um, a lot of that used to be some— just going and sitting in a café. Yeah. Going to the gym. And that has been taken away from us. And when something's taken away from us, we like to control the rest of our environment. Yeah, we do. And that's, that's what we're seeing at the moment, isn't it? Just people trying to find those other forms of control. But I think we can try and recreate— I was thinking about this actually this week. We can try and recreate that kind of self-care element even at home. And kind of putting aside that time where we're just working out what we need and what our bodies need in that moment, if that makes sense. Yeah, I did, I did actually have, um, somebody on one of my shows doing a piece on how to create a coffee shop atmosphere. Oh wow. In one, in one of your rooms, because I mean, that's one of the things I hugely miss. Like, I, I go into coffee shop and I'll sit there and I'll have people buzzing around me and I write or I read and I get things done. I can't get them done at home. It's either the kids, the cat, the dog, the washing machine, the dishwasher, or all of a sudden you're, you know, you suddenly come across something that you want to— there's something that goes on in your head and you think, oh wow, I can really address this. And then all of a sudden you see that your picture's not quite straight and you go off on a tangent and you can completely distance yourself in a coffee shop. And I really I really valued that time and I struggled not having that. I mean, a lot of my friends were going, "Oh, I can't wait for us all to go to a pub together." And I'm thinking, I just can't wait to sit in a coffee shop or in a bar on my own and completely zone out. That's what I'm really looking forward to. Like watching the world just go by and no one bothering you. Yeah. Or just occasionally just a nice smile from a complete stranger, which I must say, people really do not understand the power of just a complete stranger just going, "Hi, how's your day?" "Yeah, cool. By the way, that book you're reading, I read that too. It's fantastic. Wait till you get to so-and-so page." And then they leave. And it's just these random interactions are what feed me. And a lot of us have missed out on that. It is true. It's so interesting. I think like I've forgotten. Yeah, I kind of forgot about all of those kind of little tiny interactions, and I really hope that all of that stuff comes back. I think that's something that, like, we need to get back into normalising. I think sometimes at the moment people still feel a little bit afraid about those kind of interactions, don't they? Well, what I found is that you don't know what to expect. So I can walk down the street and a complete random stranger, or somebody that I only vaguely know, will suddenly stop and go, 'Oh, it's nice to Nice to see you and the dog, and they'll start chatting. Before you know it, you've been chatting for 25 minutes with somebody you don't even really know. You've probably been, you know, you might have crossed paths with them loads over 10 years or whatever, and you have these random conversations, and people are just dying to have random conversations. And yet then you'll walk past another person and they'll shout at you for not giving them enough space. Yeah, and you— so yeah, it's so— yeah, it's awkward. You don't know, you don't know where you stand, and there's a lot of anxiety around that. And everybody's got their own journey, everybody's got their own issues, and we need to try and be a little bit more mindful. But it's, it's a, it's a minefield out there knowing who wants what. I mean, I've— especially in lockdown, I, I'd have a completely random elderly lady who would just suddenly— she chatted to me for an hour just because the way she was. She was absolutely crying out for some sort of conversation, and you just don't know what you're going to get. And those are, those are fantastic times. But then, you know, even yesterday I had a woman shouting at me because I hadn't given her enough space on a pavement where I'd just walked past about 6 or 7 other people, giving them the same 2 meters, but she'd wanted to dance right more, which, you know, I don't know what's happening to her at home, but it's just It's, it's so hard out there at the moment. Yeah, it is, and I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's like we've all got our own things going on, but it's like, but then that's why again, it's like we need to, we need to not only be kind when you're out and about doing stuff and be mindful of that, but at the same time, like, if someone, if someone reacts in that way, actually, those, I think those people also probably need to try and think about how they are responding. That makes, I don't know, like just to get them to be a little bit mindful as well. Which probably sounds really brutal, but I'm like, they're obviously, their needs aren't getting met in maybe another way. But it's hard. And I think it's hard at the moment because we all have different kind of needs. We all have different wants around things changing. And I think for some people who've maybe been on their own the entire time or maybe have health, kind of health issues and things like that, actually for them it will be scary. But it's, it's, yeah, it's kind of like learning how best to do it in a way that is supportive for everybody. And we, I think I was writing a blog about this the other day, which I'm just about to finish, and that there's so much that's gone on and some people might have even developed eating disorders in one of it, one or many of its forms over COVID because it's been horrific for so many people in so many different ways. But basically the last year we have thrown everything up in the air, um, our friendships, our work, our security, our health, um, who we haven't been able to see, things that we've been able to do for self-care. And we're all still waiting to see where all these things that have been thrown up in the air, where they're going to land. And we all just need to be patient with ourselves and each other with each other, because all these people that possibly have— we're all going out to the pubs and restaurants and whatnot, and some people might be incredibly nervous about that if they've had a relapse or developed an eating disorder over the last 18 months. Now, for anybody who's listening right now and they're saying, yes, okay, I'm listening to what Hope says, I think I have possibly developed an unhealthy habit with food. What would be like your 3 best tips on how to just start doing something? Because this is the thing with anything, if you're going to write a book, if you're going to clean the house, whatever, start small. Yeah. Get confidence with it. What would you think? What would you recommend are the best starting points? Ah, really, really good question. I think go to your— firstly, I always say go to your GP. So going to your GP is really, really important. Like, we need to start having those initial conversations. We need to kind of get on the waiting list. So I think in that situation, write down how you're feeling, write down kind of I don't know, like the day-to-day, kind of what, how long it's been going on for, what you think has caused the eating disorder, if you know. And then in that situation, realizing that quite often when you go to the GP, they might say there's nothing they can do. There's no support, that you don't look like you have an eating disorder. So make sure that you have that time afterwards to kind of download your thinking and remembering that when you do speak to your GP, you do deserve that support regardless of what size or shape you are. So yeah, first thing, definitely speak to your GP. Then have a look at what support is out there already. A really, really good place to look is the Hub of Hope, which has like a directory of services from all over the country. You just type your postcode in and it comes kind of up with what there might be, whether it's NHS, whether it's charity, whether it's private as well. I would then have a think about actually who you want to have a conversation with about it, which is arguably probably even harder than going to your GP about things. Yes, because they're kind of anonymous, aren't they? Yeah, like around you all the time. Yeah, no, definitely. And in that case, again, kind of, I find writing it down really helpful, but I think maybe kind of going for a walk with someone, kind of making sure that you're in a space that feels neutral and that you feel kind of like you can manage. So I'd probably suggest not doing it in a café where it might be quite noisy, but kind of going for that walk, having a little potter around, just kind of sharing what's been going on, and then working out what you think you need from those individuals. So whether it is someone that you live with, and you can come up with a bit of a plan around food and how they can distract you kind of before and after meals, how you can help kind of do, I don't know, like meal preparation, like cooking together, that sort of thing as well.. And then as an individual, I would then suggest investing in a journal. And if you're someone who doesn't like writing, you could just kind of use your voice notes on your phone. But actually taking a little bit of a step back and thinking about actually, these are what, these are the reasons I want to work at this. I want to be able to go out with my friends again for dinner. I want to be able to go like on holiday and travel and not stress about food. I want to be able to kind of get my life back.. And if you kind of just have those motivations written down, actually just really, really holding on to all of that sort of stuff, I think, can be so, so helpful and a really, really good space to kind of get to as well. And then I think further down the line, it is about kind of working out who you, who else you might want to tell, whether it's family, whether it's friends, and then working out again, like, what works for you in that situation and how you can have a bit more of a conversation, a bit of an honest chat about actually this is how I'm feeling, this is what's going on. And something that actually I've kind of noticed people— I feel like people do this more nowadays, but without kind of— you don't have to share every single thing on social media, but actually looking and seeing what's out there and kind of getting that support online as well, I think can be a really, really good thing to do. And kind of looking at accounts that maybe inspire you, that give you a little bit of scope to actually think, you know what, I've got I've got an issue, I need to kind of proactively think about this. But being really, really mindful, I think, where, where you're looking. So what we have seen over kind of lockdown is a lot of kind of wellness influencers kind of popping up all over the place. And a lot of what they're kind of the advice they're giving out is really, really wrong and just not helpful for anyone. So actually make a list of all of those fears, make a list of all of those rules that maybe you've created. And actually kind of have a bit of a think about where does this rule come from. If I've told myself I can't eat a certain type of food after a certain time in the day, like, where has that come from? Is it something that is actually scientifically accurate? And when you start unpacking stuff like that, again, it helps you to just take a little bit of a step forward with things. I think all of those tips, they also apply to people who are relapsing as well. And you've done an excellent section on relapsing, but I just want to add as well that at the beginning when you said to write it down, you know, what's happening for when you go to the GP. What you do point out in your book, which I think is brilliant, is that you actually take that to the GP and read it out to them. Because as soon as we get into a room with somebody, we tend to dumb down what's going on, or we feel embarrassed, or we don't, you know, the guilt of possibly taking up somebody's time. And, you know, all of a sudden you feel a little bit better. Actually say, listen, the best way I can do this is if I read out to you what I wrote when I made this appointment. Rather than just writing it down for your own reference, utilise it in the surgery. Yeah, I think that is— because it helps you to just stay focused as well and not kind of go off and start with your ums and your ahs and your, well, you know, 'Okay, kind of,' and you stay focused and you really get the best you can out of, out of the service. Now what I did find interesting in your book is this reluctance from help, from professionals, to acknowledge you if your BMI wasn't low enough. Yeah, that is so scary. So in theory, you know, you have people who are suffering saying, 'Well, I've got to really 'up this' if I'm wanting help, which is an appalling situation to be in, because especially people who are relapsing, they know that if they're spiraling out of control, just because their BMI isn't dangerously low, it doesn't mean that they don't need help. So you really need to find the strength to really state that actually, yes, you do need help. And I think it's a fantastic section, and I like the way that you've actually giving people example sentences and statements to give out to help them verbalise what's happening and to help them get the support that they want, they need, and they deserve. Yeah, that's— yeah, I do, I do think it's— the BMI stuff is like my biggest frustration, and I'm probably gonna not really answer your question and go off on a massive tangent about it. Do it. It's just appalling. Like the fact that we are still judging a mental illness based on someone's physical appearance. And it's just, it's just ridiculous. I hear stories every single day of people who cannot access treatment because they don't fall kind of into that bracket. And I think that's what, as well as I always suggest people go to their GP, whether they're relapsing, whether they're kind of developing an eating disorder. The frustrating thing is most people will probably get turned away. Because they don't fit neatly into that kind of criteria. And it's, it's just a huge, it's just a huge issue. And it's an issue because we're not, we're not understanding kind of the severity of eating disorders. There's still a lot of stigma around it. And also we're kind of, yeah, just getting so caught up in this whole numbers game. And it also means that when people then do get support, they just get refed and then discharged. And it's like we haven't done any of that kind of psychological work that everybody needs. So it is frustrating, and I know from personal experience, like, when I got turned away, I felt like a complete fraud and felt like I was just not deserving of that support. And I hate the fact that so many other people get those feelings as well. But it's— yeah, I do still think it makes you think, well, what do I actually have to do to get this support? Yeah, that's incredibly dangerous. No, it is. It's, it's hard because it's not even like it's just people with anorexia. It's like, actually, only 6% of people who have an eating disorder will ever fall in that underweight bracket. And it's like, that's ridiculous. There's another 94% of people who won't qualify for services. It's scary, isn't it? No, I read that, I read that statistic in your book, and I was like, yeah, I was aware that, you know, eating disorders isn't just anorexia and bulimia. There were so many different elements, but the fact that it's only 6% just really brought it home to me how little I thought I understood about eating disorders, which is incredibly scary. Um, and, and especially what you were saying as well about influencers talking— some of them talking rubbish. What I've found, especially in lockdown, is a lot of people who had the opportunity to go to Dubai and go and sun themselves and have a great time, and because they're influencers and they can get away with it, they all had to up their feeds to prove that it was justified them going away. And that's when they just basically were talking gobbledygook. I don't know if you pretty much agree with that. Um, it was like they were trying to justify it. Yeah, it's just stuff like that infuriates me. It is the whole Yeah, it just feels so messy. Everything feels so messy at the moment with regards to mental health services and people, I guess, justifying their actions based on it and whatnot. But it's, yeah, it's just, it's sad because it's the people who, yeah, it's sad because people are losing their lives because of it all, aren't they? And, and yet we're kind of watching these influencers go and do whatever they're going to do, and it's, it's just not right. It's not, no, and hopefully— I've unfollowed quite a few who I used to think were quite good fun, but then I thought that what they were doing was a little bit irresponsible, and I just didn't want that in my feed. And we just need to remind people that, yeah, there's a lot of bogus stuff out there, and people should follow you instead. And yeah, just a quick reminder to our listeners, they can pop over onto hopevirgo.com, and all your Facebook and Twitter and Instagram links are up on there, so it's nice and easy and help people actually get proper support, accurate information, and help and advice. Um, but also they should go and get, um, your book, which I— do you know what, I I said at the beginning that it's so in-depth. Some of the chapters that you didn't even— I wouldn't have even thought would have been an issue, and then all of a sudden you think, of course, the shopping and getting married or going to weddings where the menu's completely decided for you and everything. And you offer up some fantastic advice, but you know, myself I wouldn't have even thought to have thought about these subjects with my friends, and I find that really helpful. What was the writing process like for you? Did it flow quite easily, or did you— I can imagine it was quite a journey, quite cathartic, but just thinking about all the different elements that have affected you and affected your audience, because you've asked a lot of people on social media for their input, haven't you? Yeah. So it was really kind of— yeah, I did find it very therapeutic writing it. And it also made me kind of reassess my own relationship with kind of food and exercise and kind of where I was also at in my recovery, which I felt like came at a really, really good time, actually. And what I'm— what I'm going to do as well, I think, is kind of start to work through the book myself as if I didn't write it, which probably sounds ridiculous. But it was really— I did find that I really enjoyed writing it, and I found it very, like, just generally quite helpful. And I'm hoping that kind of others will obviously feel the same about it. But I think that's the thing with kind of all of this sort of stuff. It's like, it only works if you start to really put it into practice. And what I'm trying to, like, encourage people to do is, like, to just keep going back to the book. Like, don't just read it once and put it on the shelf, but actually just have it kind of accessible. So when you get to those different stages in your life, whether it's a wedding, whether it's buying new clothes, whether it's going out for dinner with your friends, like, have all of that stuff as a bit of ammunition to help you process it and unpack it in a bit more of a healthy way. But I did— I loved writing it. Incidentally, I found this one harder to write than my first book because it was more, I guess it's a self-help type book, which I don't know why I found it harder to write, I guess, but I think I was probably more worried and trying to really, really help people. And yeah, which I think was kind of harder to navigate potentially for me. Well, you are laying yourself bare though, aren't you? Yeah, you're giving everyone everything, and it's like, actually, people can be so nasty when you put stuff out there, that I guess that for me was kind of like, oh, I don't know, like, whether I'm ready to do this. I don't know how it feels. But I'm so, like, I'm so pleased I did write it. And I really hope that it does start to help people. And I think as well, like, for me, because eating disorders is so kind of unique and so kind of individualized to different people, like, in that sense as well, like, I really wanted to make sure that other people's voices were heard within it as well. Yes, because it's different perspectives and you have different case studies in there as well. And what I do assume was an issue in terms of when you're saying you'll find it a bit hard, is that you're offering people in a very vulnerable state advice and trying to help them. And you know, you care because you've been through it yourself, so there's that worry element as well if you ever say the wrong thing. Or you know, everybody's journey is completely unique. Yeah, it is. And I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's like working, working out what works for every, like, all of us as individuals. But what I'm hoping with the book is it just kind of sets people a couple of tips and ideas around things. And then kind of also, if you kind of haven't had an eating disorder and you read it, just unpacking some of that a little bit more and understanding what it is actually like for someone who's in recovery or someone who's starting off their journey as well. And I think some of the stuff in the book, I'm really hoping people can, like, feel able to share as well. Like, that probably sounds ridiculous, but it's like sharing it online or sharing it with your friends, just so that again, they can have a bit of an understanding of where someone is at and what does and doesn't work. Well, that's small steps as well, because if someone's sharing something online, say when you put up a post on Instagram and they say, well, this is how I'm feeling, the more they do it, it's like tiny steps, and the the more comfortable they will get, the more confidence they will get with talking about it in a nice supportive atmosphere, that they will feel more comfortable elsewhere. And what, what, what did happen recently is, um, you spoke at the Evening Standard event, didn't you? The online wellbeing, and it was a fantastic, um, event that they put on. Obviously it was all online, but hopefully hopefully we can start doing those more when people are allowed to actually be together, more than just 6 people sitting around a table in a pub getting drunk. Hopefully we can actually have these events where people can listen to you. There's something about that face-to-face effect and being surrounded by the same people and being able to to actually have the warmth of being, you know, it, it's very hard. I mean, you have talked about in the book as well about having therapy online. It just doesn't work for some people. Yeah. And it is a lot harder. I'm myself, when I do these interviews for Get Booked, uh, for Women's and Men's Radio Station and for my other stations that I work at, um, I've had to learn to have these chats where I'm not face to face with people and I can't see what's happening. And I prefer not to do the video chat because it kind of decreases the Wi-Fi quality. But, you know, I've done chats with people in the studio and I've seen when they're getting nervous about a subject or that they're possibly spiraling and something's not right. And I hated doing these chats at the beginning because I felt nervous that I wasn't fully informed— Yeah. —of how people were being received or what they could, you know, in the past I've chatted to people about suicide and I've seen when they're starting to, you know, go a bit red and shake a little bit and I've been able to steer in another direction. And so you kind of feel like you're going blind a little bit and there's just, you get so much more from being face to face with somebody and being surrounded by people and I can't wait for you to be speaking at one of these events where it's not just online. Yeah, I do, I can't wait to start doing stuff. I'm back in schools face to face, which is amazing. Brilliant. But I'm, it's like, yeah, I am, I also, I think the problem still with the school stuff maybe, but also kind of I guess seeing, navigating what the future will look like, is again that kind of like people being able to take their masks off and have that proper interaction with with someone again. Yeah. Because again, you can read the body language, you can build up that rapport kind of really, really well. But it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's hard, I think, at the moment. And I really miss that. I really miss when you do stuff online, like having that proper conversation with people afterwards and after an event. And yeah, people email and that's really lovely. And it's so— I always love hearing from people and kind of trying to answer questions and stuff remotely. But at the same time, I just love having that proper conversation because then you can go backwards and forwards, you can understand, you can pick up on stuff, you can read that, like see where their eyes are looking around the room. Exactly, yeah, I think it's, I mean, it's all important as long as there's something out there and something is better than nothing, but we do want to, we want to see you upon those stages chatting to us and I can't wait for more of these live events to happen and people to be surrounded by people. We are sociable beings, most of us anyway. I may want to sit in a bar or a coffee shop on my own, but I still want there to be other people in there. Yeah, it's like having the choice, isn't it? But that's the thing, we had the choice taken away from us, and I think that's Hopefully, hopefully, fingers crossed, things are going to be getting back to normal. I just want to remind everybody that they can pop over onto hopevirgo.com. And, um, I love your hashtags as well. It's like the dump the scales, curb the kale, you know. Um, there's some fabulous advice in the book about calorie counting and how to kind of wean yourself away from that. There's— we're kind of running out of time. We've got less than 5 minutes. Of today's chat and there's so much I just really wanted to talk to you about, but maybe when the studios are open again we can get you in the studio and meet properly. Yeah, that would be so wonderful, that would be lovely. Something that I do like to ask all our guests, so I hope I'm not putting you on the spot, although I am, is there somebody out there at the moment in the public eye that you think is just smashing it out the park? They're fantastic to have on social media, they're saying the right things, and they are just a good person to, to look out for and to get good vibes from. I'd probably say Renee McGregor, who is a dietitian kind of specializing in eating disorders, and she basically like calls She's fantastic in what she shares on social media, but she also calls out a lot of, like, the, the rubbish that you hear on social media about dieting and exercise and, um, like, all of those wellness influencers that I touched on earlier. And I find her really helpful online, actually. And the other person— I know you asked for one, but the other person, um, is Shiru, um, who talks a lot about kind of being kind to yourself, kind of showing yourself that compassion. And I just, yeah, I love the way that she also kind of reframes things and the kind of exercises that she puts out as well, which gets you again to think about your own relationship with yourself and how you speak to yourself. I mean, I love the section on, you know, reframing our language, reframing our language with food, and language is just so important in just the words we used. What is that saying? You'll never speak to anybody as much as you speak to yourself, so choose your words wisely. Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? It's— and like, we wouldn't say some of the— half the stuff we say to ourselves to other people, so why are we saying it to ourselves? Yeah, exactly. Um, I'm just looking up now, you said shuru. How do you spell that? Shahroo. Oh, okay, nice picture. I'll look it up at the same time because I'm just quite keen. I like to put them in, put them onto my iPad and check them out and make sure I'm following the right people. I have some incredible suggestions that come through from guests that come through on GetBooked, and I absolutely love it. Make sure that we fill our feeds with positive people. Yeah, we need to, we definitely need to be curating our kind of, yeah, our socials in such a way that we're looking at people that make us feel good. Sometimes the self-punishment when we keep hold of people, keep hold of friends on Facebook that we never particularly liked in school and always made us feel bad about ourselves, and somehow it's that, it's that crying nature in us, isn't it? But it's It's just not healthy, it's not necessary. Yeah, it's not, it's just, yeah, it's pointless. So I would love to, I'd love it if you could come into the studio at some point, and I wish you all the best of luck with Hope Through Recovery. I think it's a fantastic book, I think you've done an incredible job, and well done, and I can't wait to see you out and about and helping everybody, and I hope that everybody that's been listening in to today's show has managed to gain some insight and have found ways that they can hopefully help themselves or help somebody else. Or just, you know, this is the joy of books. The more you learn about other people, it's such an incredible power and strength to have to understand the world around us. Yeah, I agree. It's, it's, it's, yeah, I love reading and writing, two very, very really good things to do in life, definitely. Yep, and I think your advice on journaling and writing things down to help people with their recovery is fantastic. Hope Virgo, thank you so much for joining us here at Women's and Men's Radio Station. I've loved chatting to you, and hopefully see you in the studio soon. Yes, perfect, really, really looking forward to it. Thanks so much for having me. You are very welcome. You've been listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station.