Get Booked – Katy Murray, Change Makers & Adam Shaw, Mental Health Pioneer, Change Makers 270622

You're listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield and an absolutely huge book fan, and I love doing this show. Now, first up today on Get Booked, we have Katie Murray talking to us about her book Changemakers, a book for ambitious and talented women leaders who either are doing or want to do awesome things in the world, including juggling multiple responsibilities, leading teams, running businesses, and loving our families, focusing on how we can address the systemic injustice in the world around us and how we can navigate and even shift these systems to change for the better without taking everything on board and feeling this immense overwhelm that we all seem to be struggling with. It's just, it's It's one of those things that we really need to fine-tune how we focus on what is important to us. And this is what Changemakers does. It focuses on the inner work we can do to sustain ourselves as we step up to lead in our workplaces and businesses, as well as the outer work we can do to navigate barriers and bias and use our voice and privilege to lift others as we rise. Change Makers explores the roles of desire, joy, and pleasure as we build our resilience, which is something we need to focus on. And we need to make sure that we're working on ourselves to be the strongest we can be to affect positive change and center our well-being. How do we avoid overwhelm and burnout? Stay hope-filled and energized as we live and lead through these tumultuous times. Katie is here to help us figure that out. Katie, how are you? I'm good, thank you. Thanks for that intro. Yeah, I'm feeling good today. Brilliant, brilliant. Well, I was just doing my notes ready to have our little chat, and as I was kind of leafing through, I made lots of notes while I was reading this book. It was quite funny, there was so many people were kind of— I went away at the weekend and they were all sitting around the pool reading these thrillers, and I'm sitting there scribbling and turning pages back, and they're going, what have you just read now? And then we We ended up having these kind of quite heated conversations at the side of the pool where some of them were going— Thrilling from the thrillers, right? Yeah, some of it is quite thrilling. And I was just doing my notes and thinking, oh, I want to add that bit in. I'm thinking, I don't have a 3-hour Get Booked show, so we're gonna have to be very selective in what topics we discuss, aren't we? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What resonated for you? What landed for you? Oh, do you know what? There were so many bits where I kind of knew I should be doing these things, but we need reminders and we need easy ways of people telling us how we can achieve certain elements of what you've put in this book. There was other topics on batching and just, you know, helping us to get through the overload and the overwhelm of what is going on. But at the same time, What I did like is it sparks conversations. It's one of those books where you kind of sit in a pub and you go, do you know what, I was reading this book and so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so happened, and how do you feel about this, and what would you do in this situation? So it's one of those books that was just so multi-layered that it's helpful for me to help deal with so many issues, not just in, in business, but in my home life. I mean, I have friends who are completely burnt out and they don't understand how I can just walk away halfway through an evening if I'm not feeling it. I'm like, well, you know, I need the energy, I need to reserve the energy. And she's completely burnt out all the time. And you talk so much about, you know, having a full body yes to doing what is actually helping you to thrive and making you feel good. And so many women are trying to multitask and do absolutely everything. And if you try and do everything, there's nothing you can do properly. It's so good to hear what's resonating for you. And I think it is one of those books where, you know how lots of books I read, and I really enjoy these books where there's like 4 or 5 main things and there's lots of stories and it's repeated and repeated. I feel like I didn't write that kind of book. This is much more, here are all the things that I have synthesized and condensed in my own work and learning and the things that I resonate with for, you know, for a number of years. And I wanted to put it all in one place and make the connections between like you say, the kind of inner work and the outer work and the sort of individual stuff and the systemic stuff. I wanted to put all those things together and make it really practical, like you say. So I love that that's resonating for you. And I love the idea of conversation starters because I think there's something in here that will sort of land for each person. And quite a lot of men have said, you know, is it for me? Can I read it as well? And they— 100%. Whispering, yes, you can. It's all right. You're allowed. And there's so much that we can I love that it's kind of provocative in that way. So yeah, thanks for sharing that. I think I wanted to provoke in a, you know, in a kind and gentle and compassionate way, which is kind of how I coach people. I really wanted to be provocative that it will start those conversations and just noticing more, like putting on the glasses. I talk about that, like what are we seeing in the world around us? And sometimes we can be in denial or we can be quite numb. To the things that are going on around us, perhaps because we're in our own overwhelm, which is real as well. So how do we really notice what's going on for ourselves in our own bodies, when also what's going on around us with our teams and our families, as you've said, but also the kind of wider world? How do we connect with that? So I wanted to find something really practical to support people who, who were saying to me, like, how can I, how can I make a difference in the world without burning myself to a crisp? Well, that's the thing. You talk about focusing on what it really is that ignites us individually and brings us joy. And joy is such a fantastic word. And yes, there's so much we want to do, but start with one thing and then, and then mastery. I'll make sure that it's completely incorporated into how you live. And then you can introduce more, but don't do everything at once. And you do a lot of work. There's a lot of exercises in Changemakers that help people kind of identify this and address this in quite, in quite a kind of easy flowing kind of way. And there's a fantastic quote in the book at— I mean, you have great quotes at the beginning of every single chapter, and it's the Maya Angelou, "When you know better, do better." It's that simple. It's so powerful, isn't it? And again, it's that— for me, it's that awareness piece of Well, we know the stats for overwhelm at the moment, it's like 42% in a recent study of women feeling overwhelmed or close to burnout or experienced burnout recently. And that's higher than it's ever been. It's up for men as well. So we're in this sort of post-pandemic or, you know, finishing through the pandemic impact of that on me. And so that awareness of like, what does that mean for me? What does that mean for those around me? And then Maya's encouragement to us to notice and see what's going on around us and not be in denial about— I'm, you know, I'm a white woman. If I think about the movements for social justice and racial justice, racial equity more recently, if you think about climate change, if you think about so many kind of bigger issues that we are connected to, and that how do we get aware of that without being overwhelmed, without getting into guilt, without getting into denial. And I love that quote from Maya Angelou, saying, well, let's, let's look and see and know more. And when we know more, let's not shy away. Let's kind of lean in and let's see what we can do about it and not take on everything like you've already said. But what's the one thing today that I can do that will, that will just help that thing move forward? Or what's the one change I can make? And there's something for me collectively when we all are doing that, Of course, that makes really quite a massive difference that we actually have way more power and more voice than we often think we do. And I think the societies and cultures that we live in kind of want us to feel quite small and quite, um, lacking in power, right? In terms of consumers or as citizens. And so when we actually say, no, I am a changemaker, I can make a difference even just in my little small corner of the internet, my little cool small small corner of the world or my little community, I can make a difference in my family. And so these, it's helping us find our sense of connection to that, I think. And you've used the word joy, which, um, you know, you know, I write about that a lot, but I think that's such a lovely clue for us as to where we can put our focus. So our joy, as well as things like our anger, like I think when we feel angry about something, um, it's that sort of deep righteous anger, that sort of justice anger where like this isn't right, that's a really good clue to help us come closer to, well, what's the piece that I can do something about then? And our joy, like, what do I actually love doing? What lights me up? What gives me energy? What really energizes me and gives me that passion? What are those things together are really powerful clues as to— I work with a lot of leaders around, well, what's my change-making contribution? That's kind of their question. And we look at where joy and anger often overlaps. It sounds a bit strange, but when we put those things together— No, it's all about passion. Yeah, yeah, it's a bit of focus, isn't it, of where we can give our attention and our energy. But the thing is, a lot of people get angry about something and they allow it to kind of pull them down and make them feel helpless. But if you just learn to channel that anger into doing something good, I mean, it's altruistic, you know. If you want to make yourself feel better about something, then do something positive. The anger, the energy you you get from feeling angry. Put it to good use. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and you're right, it's that difference between getting into that— and this is the internal work, isn't it? That noticing of what's going on for us individually. Like, are my emotions going down? Is my energy going down? Because I'm starting to get into a downward spiral of feeling helpless, feeling overwhelmed, perhaps getting into some depression about, you know, the state of the world or whatever. Um, but we want to get into that upward spiral of, okay, I can do this one small thing. You know, I can write to my MP, I can send off this, I can join this petition, I can add my voice to this, I can volunteer, I can give some money if that's where I'm at. You know, what are the different ways we can get involved? And it doesn't have to be huge or overwhelming, it can be small. And you're right, all the data tells us that when we give, we actually feel good. Like, that's a boost for our own resilience and well-being when we're giving in whatever way giving means to us. So that's an incredibly powerful energy. Energy booster for us as well. It's really good for our mental health and our physical and our psychological well-being when we're in a place of being able to give. And then my point there would be, we're not— because I work with a lot of people who are really, you know, really passionate about this stuff, so they're, they're giving a lot and they're very conscious around their giving, but then they get burnt out because it's like, oh, I'm just giving and giving and giving. And I work with a lot of women, and you've mentioned this, we're juggling so many other things, we're responsible, we're caregivers in so many areas, that that expectation of just giving give and give and give. And that's also not a sustainable piece. So I kind of want to add in that wellbeing piece there too, which is we give when we are ourselves replenished and when we are ourselves full. We know we're filling our own cup before we give to others. That oxygen mask analogy, put your oxygen mask on first before you help others. So yes, we feel good when we give and we also, we're giving from that place of joy and replenishment and then it's sustainable rather than we're just giving and giving until we've given enough and we kind of feel exhausted. Well, this is why we need an all-round approach, because there were so many other elements that I took from this book where I'm not hugely holistic, but I do know that the kind, you know, we speak to ourselves more than anybody else. So we need to be speaking to ourselves kindly, using the correct narrative. And even I wanted to start doing affirmations and I kept on going, I haven't even got time to come up with them, which is ridiculous, but you do actually have some fantastic examples in Changemakers. So there's about 6 different pages with affirmations where sometimes if I just want to speak kindly to myself or put myself in a positive mindset, they're there, they're ready for me. And also you do a fantastic section on, you know, negative speaking. It's not okay, so when we sit there going, I just don't have any time to do anything I want to do, That's such a negative frame— framework to put, to kind of absorb, and we need to be kind of saying, you know, changing our narrative and saying, right, I don't have the time this morning to do this, but I'm going to make sure I find some time later on. And it's like, it's alleviating how heavy we feel and putting us in a better mindset. I— this is so— the more we look after ourselves, the better we are to other people, the more energy we have to do good. A fantastic example of this is, one, I have many part-time jobs, doesn't mean enough, and one of my part-time jobs is that I'm a PA, and my boss the other day was saying, well, I've worked 12 hours straight, I can't have breaks like you lot, and I'm like, yeah, but that's selfish because if you had a break you would be a lot better, you would feel a lot better, and you'd probably get more done because you'd be more refreshed, and you need to start rethinking about how you do this. That's a good challenge. Yeah, being busy doesn't mean that you're being effective. Mm-hmm, 100%. And the data is interesting here. The research actually tells us that if we are taking regular short breaks, we are going to sustain our energy, our focus, our mental clarity, and ultimately therefore our kind of output, our productivity, for longer and more sustainably day by day than if we just do like a really big chunk of full focused work without any breaks. And, you know, sometimes, you know, we all have days like that. But I noticed that I might have a day where I've done really focused without a lot of break and then the next day I actually can't do that. It's just not a sustainable way of doing it. No, it's not. As you said, it affects your mood, it affects how you are with other people. It probably affects how you are with the people you love the most, because they see you perhaps in that more vulnerable space. So it's a brilliant challenge to your boss. I love it. Well, it's all about speculate to accumulate, isn't it? Put a bit of time in on your own wellbeing and see how much you flourish and how much better you are, how much positive work you can produce. And the power practices in the book for me, so these are the small, tangible little habits that we can start building in daily, that I've sort of woven through the book. And there are also some bonuses available actually. So you mentioned, and the affirmations, I've done an audio of all the affirmations, and that can be a lovely thing to, in the morning, wake up or listen to. You can record your own voice doing it. You can just read, you know, read the affirmations for yourself. I've done an audio version as well if people would like that. And that can be a really powerful way of starting, starting your day and kind of giving yourself that top-up. And that's just an example of one of the power practices that I recommend, which are just, just small ways that you can invest in yourself. It doesn't need to be huge time or money commitment at all. I design it— I've designed them to be really light, and as you said earlier, ideally really easy for people and for myself to put into our daily lives. I do know there's a lot of people that will be listening now saying, I would love to be able to meditate for half an hour, I'd love to be able to sit there and practice my affirmations, and— but yet they can do it on the walk to the tube station. You can actually, you know, you've just said you've already recorded them so they could play them in the car while they're doing their cleaning. And they're 3 minutes, so just to be clear, like nothing, I'm really honestly, I do quite enjoy meditation but I don't do it for more than 5 minutes just for me. That's the level. Obviously there are others that do and there are huge benefits as we know to doing that. But yeah, these are really short and sweet and the idea is to build them up every day so it's like a muscle that you get stronger and we go from that sort of conscious competence of like, "Ooh, this is a bit clunky. It feels a bit weird to read out an affirmation," for example. It might feel a bit weird the first time you do that. But then when you're doing that again and again over time, it's like, "Oh yeah, I can see how I do actually want this, this statement that I'm making." So for example, the time example you gave, I was thinking the reframe could be something like, rather than saying, "Oh, I don't have enough time today," or "I'm always under so much pressure," it could be, I have time and space for all the things that I need to get to today. And even by just saying that to myself, that I have time and space to get to what I need to get to today, I know there'll be things on my to-do list I don't do, but that statement just gives me that kind of like, oof, it just allows a bit of an exhale rather than feeling really tight and constrained about, oh my goodness, here's all the things I have to do. So even just that small shift, as you mentioned, that affirmation, if you're doing that every day, you can start to notice how you feel differently. And it actually starts to— the neuroscience here is, it is backed up by science. It's just kind of a whimsical thing I've made up based on the neuroscience of we recalibrating our brains. We're kind of resetting our brains to, and our bodies, our physiology to work in a particular way. We're actually accessing more of what is called our body's parasympathetic nervous system, which is like our relaxation response. So rather than constantly being in that fight or flight kind of threat mode where we're all kind of jacked up and our systems are on fight or flight mode, we can access our body's relaxation response, which is really good for us long term. There's loads of great health benefits and really good for us day by day. Like, like that feedback to your boss, you're much more likely to be showing up as the person that you want to be with your colleagues and your family and your friends and able to be in that more relaxed space than if you're in that constant threat mode. So these power practices are designed to help us to access that relaxation response and really bring that kind of physiological benefit as well as the mental health benefit. And then we, we, when we do that, then that means that we do have more energy and we are in a better, uh, positive mindset to be able to affect other changes, whether it's for ourselves and our success in business, or whether it's helping other people be a success in business, because we need to help the people around us. I saw this challenge the other day, and I'm trying to credit who gave it to me. I'll try and remember and share who it was. It was this challenge around what would it be like— what would it be like for a well— let me say that again. What is it that a well-rested woman can be and do? And it really struck me as it's like, oh, what would it be like if I was actually well rested? And what would it be like if the other amazing women that I know who are doing incredible work in the world, what would it be like if they were well rested? Like they were able to lead from that place of relaxation and their bodies are in healing and recovery rather than, you know, acting out of kind of a trauma response or a kind of threat response. What would it actually be like for the world if we could be doing these incredible things that we're involved in from a place of being rested? So that's really challenged me because I think it challenges our whole culture of like overproduction and toxic productivity and always on and hustle and go. And yeah, I'm challenging myself around what does it mean for me to be well rested? And there's so much that comes up for me there. Like, I'm like, is that okay? Is that allowed? Do I have permission to do? So much of that comes up immediately. I notice, even as I say that to you now, and there's obviously work there for me to do to allow myself to think about what it means to be rested and the value actually that that would bring for myself and in my work and, you know, for others, as you said. So yeah, that's where I'm at with that challenge. It's interesting because I have quite a few— I mean, it's well known that I read a lot. I need to read a lot because of GetBooked, but I also read just because I love it. I love writing reviews and helping other authors because, you know, it's so invaluable. If you read a book and you like it, get that review on out and get it, put it on Amazon, anywhere, or even just on Twitter. And it really does help all these authors out there. And I love it. And all my friends are saying, how do you, you know, I'd love to be able to have the time to read as much as you do, Hazel. And then they're like, oh, wait a minute, but you've got 5 jobs. And I'm all going, yes, but I read because it completely enriches me. It gives me a kind of mental break as well, and it's— that's what helps me to have the energy to do everything else, because I'm doing something I love and that raises me. And so many people forget that. I love that so much. And, and that what I'm hearing there is that commitment you have, and it doesn't feel like a heavy commitment at all. It feels like a light joyful one around I'm going to do this because it, it tops me up. It gives me joy. I love doing this. And I'm really curious, like for everyone listening, and again, it's a challenge to myself, like what is it that I love to do? What is it you really love to do? And can we just do more of that? Like that feels so radical to say, but an example that I use in the book is, and we did this this week, my partner and I have what we call a walking day once a month, which is just like kid-free, time for the two of us. We walk a little bit higher and further than we can do if we're with, with other people who are like, where are the snacks? When are we, when are we done? So we sort of take a day out together basically. And we just used to do that on our birthdays, like twice a year. I love that. We were like, we really love this. Why don't we just do it more? Like we actually could do this more often. And of course there's some logistics and we have to schedule it in and all the things. But now that we've agreed, we can just do this more often. It's twice a year. I mean, And it's so good. Like, it's so good for us in all the ways. Like, relationally, it's good for us in our relationship. And now walking day may not be your thing, or reading may not be your thing, but what is your thing? What is something you love to do? And like, just take permission to just do more of it. Because if it's something that, as you said with your books, if it tops you up and it adds value to you and your work and it helps you feel refreshed and like how many benefits there are, it's just brilliant. So that's my encouragement for all of us. What do you love to do? And can we just do more of it? I was reading that part of your book and I was kind of giggling going, right, okay, so you choose to spend your birthday with your partner. I've taken my birthday off since I can remember now, and but I don't do it with my partner. I'm like, right, kids, partner, you can see me in the evening, but Mummy's taking the day off. Yeah, I'm gonna go and drink champagne, read a book, do a bit of writing. None of you for me. It's all good. And again, what I'm hearing there is that intentionality around this is going to top me up, this is going to boost my energy and enable me to then be present for my partner and my kids and my work. And, and again, it's, it's what's our equivalent of that, isn't it? That may not be what everyone would love to do, but what is the thing that you would love to do? And then you don't need me to give you permission, by the way, but just take the permission and take space for yourself to say, this is it, this is what's going to help me. And sometimes we need to experiment, right? We don't know because we haven't explored that. We need to give ourselves space to explore what is it that I do love. It's like that desire question or that pleasure question, isn't it? Like, what actually do I want? What actually do I desire? We as women have so rarely asked that question of ourselves or others that sometimes I notice in my coaching we need to sit with that question a few times and go around it a few times to really get to what is it I really desire. Not what everyone else desires for me, or what everyone else thinks I should do, or all the other expectations that society puts on me that I've just taken in in my conditioning. But what is it I actually really want? And that's a really powerful question. That was a bit of a tangent, but it's another one of those where we have to speculate to accumulate. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Challenge ourselves with that question of 'Let me take time with this because there's, there's gold here, there's richness here for me.' So, um, and I think this is absolutely fantastic. Imagine if you don't know what it is that actually enriches you and you can spend the time trying to figure it out. And if at any point you feel guilty just that you're taking the time to do something for yourself, which so many women do, and just think about how much better you will be for these people, how much better you will be for your children, your partners, your work colleagues, it's everybody around you. It's a team game here. Yeah, now I do want to talk, I definitely want to talk about thinking errors and negative bias. If you can tell our listeners a little bit more about the concept of thinking errors. Yes, so I mentioned earlier the threat response that we get into in our brains. Our brains have a negativity bias because that's how we stay efficient and that's how we stay alive and that's that kind of ancient part of our survival the survival part of our brain. So what we know is that when we are in that threat response, we are much more susceptible to what have been, what have been called thinking errors, which are biases in our thinking. So when we are under pressure, when we're feeling that stress, when we're in that fight or flight, we are less able actually to access our more kind, compassionate, logical, rational thinking, which is in our our prefrontal cortex, another part of our brain. And lots of different thinking areas or biases have been labeled. I think there's hundreds and hundreds now that psychologists have labeled as potential biases. So, this is worth diving into. Chapter 6 and also Chapter 2 in the book look at this in much more detail. But, you know, do explore this for yourselves around what kind of biases might I be susceptible to? And some of them are in society and they're conditioned in society. For example, I'll just give an example. In the workplace, we know that women are much more likely to pick up what's called office housework. So, for example, clearing up the drinks and the cups after a meeting, setting the agenda for the meeting, or making sure that everyone knows when the meeting is. That, that small, those small kind of glue tasks that help things roll. And that's one example. We know from the data that women tend to fall into those kinds of roles, sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously, and then that gets perpetuated as a bias in in the workplace. So that's just one example. And when we're in, of a kind of organizational bias, an example of a thinking error, I'll give you an example of all-or-nothing thinking is one that's labeled. So, something happens and I am in my threat response and I see it as a complete disaster. It's either a complete disaster or it was brilliant. I can't see the nuance or I can't see the things that I've learned or the positives that have come out of the situation. And catastrophizing is another, another thinking error, and kind of seeing the worst that could happen. So part of the reason why I've built in these power practices to help us access our relaxation response is so that we can access that, all of the physiological kind of body benefits of that, as well as the thinking benefits of that around being able to hear our own wisdom and to hear our own and access our own compassionate voice and our own kindness that sits within each of us, that wisdom that sits within each of us, rather than necessarily being overruled or sort of driven by those thinking errors, which can also be very loud and very strong at times when we're under pressure. So that, yeah, there's lots more in that chapter, but that's just a little, a little taster. I think it's very good that you've incorporated, um, breathwork into that section as well, because it's so important, you know, it's It's more powerful than what a lot of people actually give it credit for. And when we do get into those kind of negative biases and thinking errors and we're feeling overwhelmed, just sometimes taking a minute to think it through before reacting, or just to help us kind of handle the overwhelm and just taking a minute or two to just calm down, think things through and start breathing properly. So, so powerful. Again, there's a, there's an audio version of that breathing exercise that's available as a bonus for free for anyone who wants to have it as a guided practice. And then when you've, when you've had someone kind of lead you through it, that you then can do that for yourself. It's a really powerful practice to put in your toolkit. It just takes a few minutes, but it can really reset your body and your, and your mind. As you've just said, it's really powerful. And just a quick reminder to all of our listeners, that they can get hold of Changemakers. It got released on the 3rd of April of this year, priced £12.99, and it's pretty much out everywhere, isn't it? Yeah, Amazon, Waterstones, WHSmith Travel, all the places internationally as well. Go for it. I'm assuming you're having quite a great response. It must be lovely hearing what people have to say about your book. It's really fun, and like we've done today, just different things are resonating for different people, so I'm loving hearing what's landing for you, what you're curious about, what, what is provoking for you. So yeah, I'd love to hear from listeners about what what's resonating. It's brilliant to hear that. Well, we've managed to get through about 4 of the 28 points I wanted to discuss in this interview. You might have to come back again. But something that I do like to ask Arthur, 3 top tips in mental well-being, and can you squeeze in 3? Yeah, so there's loads in the book because that's such a big theme in the book. Do more of what you love, I already mentioned that one. Set your intentions every day. So again, there's a power practice in the book that helps you do that. How do I want to feel today? How do I want to be today? What's one thing that I want to progress? Really powerful questions to help you focus and, um, and center yourself at the beginning of the day before you dive in. That would be my, my quick top tips. Brilliant, I absolutely love that. And something else I like to ask all of our guests is just somebody in the public eye that you're admiring and at the moment? Yeah, so I'm really admiring in the UK female MPs who are navigating a really toxic, tricky system and using their voice and their platform to speak out, whether that's on poverty, refugees, human rights, childcare, fatsworking, whoever, whatever those issues are. I just really admire, there's a few in my mind who I follow and just really cheerlead because they're incredibly courageous and they're taking their voice and they're taking their space and we need more women and men to be doing that. And ironically, it's the ones that aren't supported in the workplace to make positive change that need to speak the loudest. And then the way that they are perceived because they are speaking so strongly and loudly, there's just so many biases that are kind of riddling through that statement, but it's just bonkers. Well, I must say, I've thoroughly enjoyed this book. It is completely and utterly dog-eared. I'm sure you're thrilled to hear. But I must just remind everybody to go out and buy Katie Murray's Changemakers. And a bit of a reminder for people out there, they can pop on to katiecatalyst.com to find out more about you. Thanks, Hazel. Thanks so much for having me. Brilliant to have this conversation. Really enjoyed it. You're very welcome. And we'll have to get you back on the show to talk about the other 24 topics. Happy to. Thank you so much for joining us here on Get Get Booked. Next up, joining us on Get Booked, we have Adam Shaw, the mental health pioneer who over the past 5 years has arguably done more for mental health recovery, advocacy, and philanthropy than any other. You've likely been impacted by the incredible work he has done in the field of mental health, from making mental health education compulsory and mandatory in UK schools to forming the Shawmind charity, which we're going to be talking about, and creating the world's first mental health publisher. Adam has touched the majority of mental health recovery stories in, in the US and UK, and he has invested more than $10 million of his own money into revolutionizing mental health recovery and support on a global scale, which is what Women's Radio Station and Men's Radio Station is all about. Adam, thank you so much for joining us here on Get Booked. How are you? Hey, Hazel, that's a really nice introduction, thank you. I'm great, I'm feeling even better after that introduction. Thank you for that rundown, it was awesome. You are welcome. Yeah, so you're quite a busy chap, aren't you? Well, yeah, I mean, I have been over the last, particularly the last 4 or 5 years. It's strange because I was fortunate enough really to sell my company, which is in a different life really, in a different industry completely. And my own story's out there about my own battles with OCD and how I harnessed that really to, you know, not intentionally, but I harnessed it in the right way to be successful in business because, you know, of the obsessive nature behind always wanting to be right and, you know, the details and everything that go with that. But it was a very, very dark side to OCD, like a lot of people know who suffer with OCD. It's— I suffered with the intrusive thoughts and it was— it took me to some very dark places. But on On the flip side of that, the fortunate side, of course, there is a very negative side to OCD, but on the fortunate side, it allowed me to be successful in business. And then, you know, when I exited my company that I'd sold, that I built and sold around about 2014, 2015, I did kind of try retiring, I guess, for like 3 or 4 weeks. And I realized soon after with all the kids that I had and, you know, the craziness of just, you know, life. I realized I needed a purpose. I just couldn't sit on a beach and do nothing. And that's when it kind of really hit me that I'd been fortunate enough to try and do something, to have a difference in this overwhelming purpose, I think, which takes hold of a lot of people in a similar situation to give back. But to really not only use my own money that I'd been fortunate to generate, but hopefully to use my skill set to harness that and really have impact into something that was really important to me. And it was a no-brainer for me. It was absolutely mental health that I had to give back. I knew at the time it was still fairly not as typical as it was now to talk about mental health. Thankfully, even over the last few years, we've progressed so much that people had started to talk about it. People and celebrities had started to come forward, which was all great. But I knew from the side of the software for really my purpose. You know, I wasn't a celebrity. You know, I didn't have much influence in the media or the public eye, but I knew I had a good bit of financial backing and I had good business skills. And I knew that, well, what can I do to make a difference? And that was really, well, I can have impact rather than being an advocate and out there speaker. That will come naturally with, you know, just driving impact. But what I can do I want to do is really drive impact and make a difference for sufferers out there, for the next generation, but also for people who are suffering now. So yeah, that's a long answer to a short question. I'm sorry, but yeah, that's kind of the history and how I really kind of, you know, I've always had OCD. It's always been a part of me. It was never, you know, on my radar to get involved in mental health. I always wanted to run away from it, but when I faced it and got over my OCD and then my business, I knew that was going to be the next stage of my life. So yeah, the last 4 or 5 years I've been particularly busy, hopefully making a lot of impact, and probably more busy than I was and have ever been, even with my previous company. So yeah, that's been the last 4 or 5 years of my life. Do you not think though, when you have certain mental health issues, having purpose is so incredibly important, and also being able to take what other people have unfortunately seen as a negative, flipping it on its head and going, do you know what, I've had these issues, but it means that I understand them, so it means I can do something, you know, helping other people share and live with whatever mental health issues they may be struggling with, you know, rather than just saying, right, I have depression, that's it, this is a negative. No, it means that you understand people a little bit more with depression and you can help. So sometimes we've just got to flip things on their head a little bit, haven't we? Hazel, you see, I mean, you are so, so right. That's exactly how we, we do treat mental health and we should treat mental health. And the sad thing is not a lot of people know that and not a lot of people are aware, and especially sufferers and family sufferers, just how you can turn around your mental health issues into such a positive for your life and your family's life. And it's not the sufferer's fault, it's just that the lack of education around that, how to do it, or the lack of resource to do it, it's not there. Generation after generation's been failed. And you're absolutely right. I mean, one of the things that we did with my charity Shoreline is we knew we had to have impact straight away. And one of the biggest things I missed as a child, and I think my generation was failed, but also parents' generations was failed. And we get onto this, you know, how do we look at mental health and turn it into a positive is because, you know, we really— I felt that I was let down because I wasn't educated on mental health. It's a lot to put on teachers. They work so hard and there's so much put on them. And we had to find a way of supporting teachers, but we had to find a way of making it mandatory within the syllabus because we believe that my charity, Suremind.org, that every kid, every child should be compulsory educated on mental health and it should be on the syllabus. And just like we're taught how to deal with physical illness and we have physical education in school, it was imperative to me that mental health education became compulsory. It doesn't stop people from having mental health problems, it doesn't stop people from being mentally ill, just like physical— when you give physical education, it doesn't stop people from becoming physically ill, it doesn't stop people even from getting overweight. But what it does do, it's like physical education and mental health education, in that it gives you the tools to spot the symptoms, to spot the signs, on how to get help, on what to do. Just like with physical health, on if you get overweight, we all know what we need to do. We know how to manage that. It's, it's very hard, of course, to lose weight, but we, we have the tools and the, the resource to deal with that. And so it's a very basic form of mental health that's now delivered in schools that our charity first pushed for the parliamentary debate in 2017. We've been heavily involved in that over the 4 or 5 years. You know, there's lots of other great organizations and of course that have got involved in making that happen and the syllabus will keep evolving. But yeah, going back to your point on purpose and flipping it into a positive. Yeah, I'm all for believing purpose because I think that's, you know, life is very, very small, whether you're spiritual or you're religious or you're not either of those things. But I think when you stop having a purpose purpose, male or female, or you don't feel like you have a purpose, life is very smart and finds a way of not giving back. But if you have a purpose in life, I think life also finds a way of keeping you and giving you back. And I think that purpose for me, um, and what helped me when I sold my company is I had this lack of, you know, although one could say I was very fortunate because, you know, I had security and money. It's not everything though. No, it's not. It really isn't. Position to enjoy it. As a young man, when you're building a business, and that's, that was my purpose then, it was like money, support my family, keep going, keep going, avoid my mental health, mental health. And then when I got there and I had my money, I was like, okay, right, well, so what do I do now? And the OCD started coming back and the depression started creeping in, and that's where purpose was really important to me. So that's, that's what drove me with the mental health. But going to how we flip it, this is one of my organizations We, you know, Trigger Publishing, which we now have a platform called triggerhub.org, which provides something what we harness, which is an old ancient Greek term, really, it's nothing new, but we've harnessed it for today's world called bibliotherapy. And really, that is, it's just, it is books. But I mean, we've had these creators, especially because it's something that really helped with me. I was never a big book reader. But my doctor that I had at the time, and Dr. Lauren Callahan is now involved with TriggerHub and what we do and how we really, you know, provide affordable and supportive solutions to people is through lived experiences, is bibliotherapy, because the power that it helps sufferers and how it helps me— like I said, I was never a big book reader, but once I started to identify with other sufferers' stories, that didn't give me full recovery recovery. Of course it didn't. But that was 50% of the battle, knowing that I was not on my own, knowing that, you know, I wasn't— there was a little bit of a barrier between me and my doctor like that. There is, it's that kind of, well, they're a doctor, I'm not, I'm just a number and I'm just a patient. And of course there's medication that you can take to help mental health. But actually what I was craving for more than anything else was validation and really to identify identify with somebody else's story who had what I had. And as soon as I was able to do that and read that and understand the challenges that they'd gone through, I identified that with that immediately. And that, like I say, it gave me such hope. It gave me a path and a trajectory to recovery. And that's where I was like, well, you know what, books on mental health and recovery, they aren't promoted enough in terms of how actually they can really help. Uh, and if we can you know, manifest these stories from brave authors with courageous experience who want to come forward and tell their stories. Not only is that a really cathartic experience to the author themselves, but actually if we can package this in a way where it's a supportive tool, not just, oh, I've got a book to read, but actually this is, you know, this is a Bible of information that can really show you that you're not alone and you can identify with an everyday person what they've been through. Well, that's the thing, identity Identifying, isn't it? Identifying with somebody and sharing what's going on. And a lot of mental health issues are based around loneliness. We feel incredibly lonely if we think we're on our own and that we're the only person dealing with whatever issues we're going through. Yeah, absolutely right. And that's it. That's one of the— I say that a lot, you know, 50% of the battle with mental health problems is the actual, you know, mental health issue itself, but the other 50% is the loneliness that comes with that. And those two 50s that come together, once you've lost 100% hope, that's devastating because that's where we hear these horrific stats on people taking their own life and feeling very, you know, it's a horrible situation. But if you can give somebody hope, just even 1% or 2%, you're giving them a trajectory and you're showing them that there's a way out of this. And we go back to the original question that you said about how do we tell turn it into a positive. So this is what our books do. And this is what I stand for. And this is why we set up TriggerHub and Trigger Publishing. It's to really show and, you know, at the end of these Bibliotherapy stories that our authors write, we showed actually at the end of, you know, how what this journey that the author has been through, how that's turned into an absolute positive. And how actually having a mental health issue, and whether you recovered fully, or you learn to manage that mental health health issue, whatever that journey is with the issue, how that can actually be turned into a positive. You're actually far more stronger for having a mental health problem than you are if you're not. And that's something that we need to be proud about and talk about. People who've got mental health conditions don't realize it, but they're the strongest people, some of the strongest people you ever come across, what they've had to deal with internally each day. And actually, what I've been through in terms of my own OCD journey, how I recovered, the terrible times I went through. I feel I now know my mind better than I've ever known it before, and that puts me in a really strong position to spot the signs, to help other people, but also to manage my own mental health. So I had to go through that journey to get there, but you're absolutely right, to come out the other side, to see how, you know, and how I managed to harness OCD and how I managed to react to it, and actually when I recovered recovered, or I still manage my OCD today, the positives I have taken from that, I can't even put into words or put it down to paper. All I can say is that when you come out the other side of a mental health issue, or you're still managing that mental health issue, the positives are actually— when you look at it, it's worth going through. It sounds silly, but it's worth going through the negatives that you had with your mental health issue. Now, Of course, you don't feel that at the time, but honestly, you can turn it into such a positive and it affects all forms of your life in terms of how you deal with future interactions and chances you take and opportunities you take. You know, I went through a terrible time, just like a lot of people do with mental health issues. But you know what, Hazel? I would now not change it for the world. And that's how I flipped it into a positive that, you know, I still have to manage it, but this is me. And you know what? Opened up other opportunities for me. Now, one could argue, you know, that I've done pretty well in business and what more opportunities did I need? And I don't just mean about making money or anything. I mean, opportunities of meeting other people and doing other things and creating other ideas and doing things that I necessarily wouldn't have done if I had not recovered from my mental health issues. So it really can have a really positive impact if we flip it. And again, Bibliotherapy, which we've manufactured manifested and elevated on our platform triggerhub.org. That's really what that's about. It's how do we, you know, identify with other sufferers? How do we, you know, recover, you know, in our own time, in our own space? And then how do we turn this into a positive for the rest of our life? And that's really what we've done in Trigger Hub with Bibliotherapy. And I hope a lot of people get a a lot of benefit from that. And it comes from, you know, not necessarily celebrities writing the memoirs or the books. What it does do, it comes from everyday people who've had a mental health issue, then have the ability and the courage to then put their story down into words and then find a publishing organization who's willing to take that risk to publish it and create it. And that's what we do at Trigger Hub. And that's why that part of that journey training for me was so important to invest in. You know, I didn't have the resource to build mental health hospitals or anything like that, but what I did do is I had enough business, hopefully, um, um, credibility, uh, about me and a good team around me to, to do something that would have immediate impact. And that's, that's, that's where we created these, these, these amazing books, which of course has led to us being one of the biggest publishers of mental health lived experiences in the UK and the US. And it's absolutely— yeah, it's triggerhub.org, isn't it? It's triggerhub.org, yeah. Now I'm actually having a look at some of the books that you've got on here. Now I know that I have— I very recently interviewed Michelle Morgan on Get Booked with Own Your Awkward, and there's a couple of other ones on there as well. However, There is one book on here which I know is up on the shelf in my local newsagents. Right. She lives around the corner from me, literally on the end of my road. It would take me about 30 seconds to get to her door right now. Wonderful. And that's Helena Tarrant, who talks about beating OCD and anxiety, and it's predominantly through cartoons actually. Wow, yeah. So I mean, I'm, I'm, um, what's happened is because the, the organization has grown so rapidly over the last few years, I should know this, but, you know, as a founder, I don't know all my authors personally. I, of course, know all the books on there, and my CEO and the team, they all know the authors personally, and that's their job to do so. But we certainly have— and Dr. Lauren Callahan, who was our clinical physician for ensuring the quality of what we put out there and everything that's signed off, she has a relationship with all these. But what I can absolutely assure you, there's a, there's a procedure that we go through to ensure that one, there's a benefit to the, the author, there's a cathartic experience, but then there's a holistic benefit to the wider audience, to the, to the global market, that that's going to help this author get a story out, but also more importantly, it's going to help lots and lots of people around the world. And yeah, it's strange how, um, um, one of the things that we did come up, uh, one of the big challenges we did come up, come across is, is, you know, a lot of the the big traditional, if you like, the bookshops and the wholesalers, they of course have an appetite for books on mental health, but at the moment they don't really— commercially it's difficult for them and difficult for mental health author to kind of get a publishing deal purely because of the routes to market where the big wholesalers don't necessarily want to or have an appetite at the moment to buy them in bulk. So this is kind kind of why we set up the organization and why it's very hard for mental health authors to get deals, because when there isn't a profitable element to it as such for the publishing company, it's hard for them to justify why they would do it. And this is why we kind of set up TriggerHub, uh, to provide a platform where these can be purchased online around the world. And also so we have this specialist routes to market so we can get them into traditional, you know, the author who does want to see their, their book on the shelf can do that. So yeah, I'm really pleased to hear that, particularly the book on OCD, and I'm really pleased it's on our platform, and I'm really pleased we published it. No, me too. Well, to be honest, it's one of those local newsagents where they are such a part of the community that they want to help and support everybody, and I just loved it that it was kind of in there. So I kind of looked her up and followed her on Twitter. That's wonderful. I love to hear that. And you know what's so brave about that as well, that the fact that the author has been so open and gone public, and then she's so willing to do it in her own community as well, to tell her story, to not be ashamed of that, and to really be proud of her story, uh, you know, because some people who do approach us, of course, you know, that there is a sensitive side that, like, I don't— I want to help people, but I don't really want people in my family to know what I went through, and I want to protect them, and I'm still slightly embarrassed So people like the author you just mentioned there, it's so wonderful that they actually are part of that community with their story, and that's absolutely what mental health recovery and purpose is about. So that's, that's really, really, really cool to hear. Well, and I've been looking on Short Minds and, you know, how you want to work on prevention, support, recovery, and transformation, and obviously the, the publishing element helps with the transformation and the recovery and the support. But also we don't necessarily have to just read books about mental health because we think we have that particular issue, just to help us understand more about the people around us. And likewise with Sure Mind, where you're trying to, you know, make mental health knowledge as part of the school curriculum. The thing is, this is when young minds are shaped. This is when they're trying to find their way in the world, and if they think that they fit in more, how much that can impact their confidence and their well-being right at the start is so paramount to how people are formed. And I think it's— I just had actually another author on the show on Get Booked, and she's written a book called Changemakers, and it's about the whole— encompassing so many different into how we can be fabulous for everybody, whether it's in business, whether it's for our family, or whether it's just for ourselves. And if our mental health is good when we're trying to figure out how to form relationships and to educate ourselves and to find our way in the world, and if we're comfortable and confident at a young age, just imagine how unstoppable we could be. Well, this is— again, I mean, I wish we'd had you in our charity right at the beginning, Aisling, because you're kind of mirroring my kind of ethos on how we can, you know, we can't change mental health overnight and what's been caused. But in reality, we can set out a trajectory to really, really change next generation's attitude and the whole society towards mental health and how we deal with mental health. And if we'd have done that a few decades ago, we certainly wouldn't be seeing the challenges that we're having now. And like you said, it's not just about always having good mental health because even, you know, even those of us who have the tools to deal with mental health and those who who don't really have any diagnosis with any particular mental health problem, they still have bad days with their mental health. So it's about giving everybody the tools to deal with mental health, whatever those issues are coming forward. And particularly now, why it's so paramount, and I'm not just talking about the recent pandemic and everything like that, but I'm talking about, this is why we're talking about how difficult it is already for young people in today's world, how difficult it was for me. But now we have something even more harder to deal with, which is probably harder than any generations have to deal with. Certainly as a parent myself, I'm having to deal with it. And that's with smartphones and social media. This thing is like a, with social media. It's like a disease, isn't it? And with smartphones, yeah. I mean, I say to, you know, I was saying to my team the other day at Shoreline Trustee meeting, and I also say this to my kids, that, you know, with a smartphone, it's more powerful. More dangerous than giving a kid a loaded gun, yet we don't educate them on it. It's more dangerous to me, uh, than drugs and alcohol, social media and smartphones without no education. It's that dangerous to children, yet we're giving them these platforms. And the— we can't even comprehend what it's doing to their mental health. And I think a lot of social media companies are acting particularly at the moment like a lot of cigarettes companies did back in the day when, you know, they're trying to put a positive on everything, trying to do a little bit here and there. There's a whole, there's a big tidal wave coming. And so the fact that we've hopefully managed to make some form of difference already by enabling students and young people to have tools to deal with mental health issues is just the starting point because there is a big tidal wave coming. And unfortunately, and this is not a bad look, social media to me has its parts to play in society and it can be everything. It's pivotal. To what we are now as a society. But equally, these amazing organizations, these platforms with all this finance behind them, all this innovation, all this talent they have within their teams, they need to take more responsibility to be more innovative on how they help children and young people with managing social media and their mental health. They've got to start taking more responsibility than just at the moment, which is ticking a box. At the moment, it's, it's, that's what's happening. And I think that's the next big big challenge and something that we really want to address, uh, in our charity, especially for young people, because I've seen what my own children go through, and I've— some of it, it's, it's horrific. I mean, we, we can't even— yeah, it's— we can't even comprehend the damage that's being done with lack of education, the power that's been— and this, this tool that's been given to our children in their hands. My own children— I mean, you said that it's worse than like drugs and alcohol, yet technology, excessive technology when they actually step away from it, it is like they have a hangover and withdrawal symptoms that are physically represented in headaches and mood swings, just as much as if you'd spent all weekend in the pub. It is, it is just the same, and it is so incredibly scary. But then add into the fact I actually got sent a video last night, a TikTok video, and I very rarely go go on TikTok, and after about 20 minutes, which I didn't even realize I'd been on for 20 minutes, I was sitting there going, oh my goodness, look at all these people with perfect makeup. I've never been— I don't put any effort in. Oh, I feel really bad that I don't put any effort into my appearance anymore. And I'm a 40-year-old woman. Imagine the effect that those videos are having on 12, 13, 14, 20-year-olds. You know, it's so damaging and so scary. Again, it's so, um, remarkable that you mentioned that because the parameters that we're working within now within the charity, but also, um, some TV work that I'm getting involved in, uh, is, um, the reality behind the impacts of social media. And one of those experiments is actually understanding what happens when we take and looking at children as young as 6, 5 or 6, when we take away their, um, social media platforms and, and, and how there's a curve that starts with them being kind of like ingrained in their social media feeds, taking away for it being almost substance abuse to like, there's this curve where they really hit rock bottom. But if you keep going, all of a sudden, and the social media is still taken away from them, they all of a sudden rise out and become like, it's almost a different personality. Oh, this has happened to me today. Yeah, the more happier, the more. But of course it is, it's like an addiction. They don't think they're happier, they think they're missing out on something. In reality, the stuff that's on social media, 99% of it is nonsense. You know, and our kids need to understand that it's nonsense. They're addicted to it. And it's an experiment that we're kind of doing in our charity and it's something that we want to address. But yeah, that's the next big challenge. But here's the thing, you can't, you know, with the billions and billions of pounds and the influence that social media companies have now in our society, what you have to do is you have to be smart about this. We can't go against them. We have to try and work with social media companies and say, hey guys, you're amazing. You have your part to play, but you really do have an amazing power and responsibility here. To be honest, Adam, I could talk about this till the cows come home, but we have run out of time. And I just want to point out to our listeners that they can pop onto shoremind.org or they can pop onto triggerhub.org to find out a little bit more. I really could keep this conversation going about social media because something I'm so incredibly passionate about. But unfortunately we've come to the end of today's show and I must say thank you so much for joining us here on Get Booked for Women's and Men's radio station. It's been an absolute pleasure, thank you so much, and sorry for the long answer Hazel, but like you I'm just as passionate for this as you are. And again, we tend to, I found that people in mental health in this space, we tend to talk a lot because we have so much to say because We've been kept in bottled up for so long that we— our answers go on longer than, than the average person. So my apologies for that, but it's been great to speak to you. Well, we must get you back on the show another time. Thank you so much. All the best. Thank you so much.