Get Booked – Lesley Miller, Alcohol Reconsidered 111021

Hello, this is Get Booked for Women's Radio Station and Men's Radio Station, played daily at 5 PM for WRS and Tuesdays at 4 PM for Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield and I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. We aim to open discussions and offer support via the incredible writing community out there. Come and join us, get involved. And if you want to catch up on any previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on our SoundCloud Unlimited Options. Well, today on Get We have Alcohol Reconsidered: Education for Moderation by Leslie Miller and Katherine Kell Clarke. It's available on Amazon. That's the ebook at £8.99 and paperback is £9.99. This book, Alcohol Reconsidered: Education for Moderation, enables you to reevaluate your relationship with alcohol enabling you to make positive, realistic, and sustainable changes without asserting a notion of abstinence or even being preachy. It's about being informed, improving wellbeing and productivity by making positive changes, addressing what is possibly going on, and making a decision to alter our relationship with alcohol to better our attitude towards life and quite importantly ourselves. Guilt, shame, tiredness, mood swings, etc., are so prevalent in our daily lives, and overconsumption really does its part in contributing to this. I will happily and openly state that I know I drink more than I should, as I'm sure many of you listening now could say the same. I love drinking and the social aspects of it and have no intention of giving up, but I am keen to make tweaks to help maintain a better state of mental well-being, which I'm sure you would all love to do. Let's get stuck into this. Lesley, hi! Good morning, Hazel. Thank you for joining us here on Get Booked for Men's and Women's radio station. Thank you very much for having me. Now, I've been storming through this book, and I mean, I know I said in the intro it's not preachy. It really isn't. It's bizarre. I find— I found it weirdly entertaining, especially going back into the research elements, and there's quite a lot of nostalgia in there as well, and you kind of relate to the readers on such a fantastic level that I think, and I hope, that it's going to get through to people. Well, thank you very much. You know, we kind of— when we wrote the book, we were really well aware that, you know, the pandemic brought lots of different challenges for different people, and we're aware that kind of people will use alcohol in lots of different ways. And it's a really complicated question that, why do I drink? And you'll know from reading it, Kate, Kate Kell Clarke and myself both had our own issues with sort of finding that line between having a drink to relieve some of the social pressure, or going out with our friends, to it becoming something that we relied on to deal with maybe some of the more negative emotions, which obviously a lot of people will have experienced over the past year. But of course, it's quite difficult when you write a book, you know. I'd, I'd read a lot of books myself that were all a bit like, "Oh, I don't touch a drop again," and "I'm never going to drink again," and I found that quite difficult myself to relate to. So this is really kind of based on our own experiences. Well, it's about knowledge being power, isn't it? And making an informed decision. And I'm such a strong believer in encouraging people to not take a particular route that they've heard about, you know, get the knowledge about whatever it is you want to change and form your own path. You know, if abstinence is the only way for you, or you think that's what you'd like to do, then do it. If you want to cut down, then just make informed decisions. Don't kind of restrict yourself in a particular route that you should be taking. It's— although I say knowledge is power, sometimes ignorance is bliss as well, isn't it? Well, definitely so. I mean, our kind of take on it from kind of the experience we've had from doing research, both from talking to our friends and sort of the actual research, is People drink for different reasons, so it stands to reason that there are different solutions to this problem, because we hear a lot in the news possibly about people who, who are on the really sharp end, who found themselves in really hot water with their drinking, and, you know, kind of stopping completely for them is completely appropriate. But there's a whole group of people sort of somewhere in the middle of this sliding scale who have found themselves drinking too much, but You know, they're not sleeping on park benches, you know, kind of, they're holding their lives together, they've got busy careers, they're looking after family members, they're not dropping any balls, they don't identify as being alcoholics as such. But, you know, where it's finding that line, isn't it? It's because of the way alcohol works, it's very easy to find ourselves going from having, you know, a few drinks per evening, and because of how it works, to find ourselves drinking increasingly more. And as time goes on. So we kind of— our approach is we're not anti-alcohol and we're not anti-sobriety, but, you know, we are aware that a lot of people can gain a lot of benefits, both physical— with a physical health and mental health— just by cutting back. So, you know, kind of, we try not to be as presumptuous as to knowing exactly what people are doing, and we try to help them— people find— this is more of a starting point, I'd say, than an end, is to really just start thinking about it in a bit more detail. Well, I think— to make more informed decisions. Sorry, Hazel. Yeah, completely. And I think I've always, you know, enjoyed a drink. I think I sometimes blame my northern upbringing on it, but, you know, I'm sure my friends from Birmingham, you know, blame their Midland upbringing, and my friends from London blame their London upbringing because of the choice and the variety and the accessibility, you know. You know, we're all incredibly different, and yet we behave the same. And I know that there, especially over the last 18 months, people have drunk a damn sight more, whether it's just to stay calm and to relax, especially when they're schooling their children as well as doing a full-time job, or worried because they've lost a job or furlough. And the last thing you want to do is get so wound up while teaching your kids that you're making life even more unpleasant in this unprecedented time. And I hate that word after the last 18 months. But, you know, now that the the pandemic seems to be, in theory, coming to an end, we need to relearn different habits. I mean, if you think about it, what I find absolutely bizarre in terms of overconsumption is, you know, there were so many memes going around, especially in the pandemic, about people overdrinking and drinking at 8 o'clock and shoving, you know, sellotape and a tea bag to the side of the cup when really you had quite a lot of Merlot in there and whatnot. And it was a bit of a joke. For people's birthday, you know, you have cards that say, "Let's go get smashed and make some mistakes," and whatnot. You wouldn't see cards— I mean, booze is a drug, but you wouldn't see cards going, "Hey, it's your birthday, let's shoot up and get off our face," because you wouldn't be allowed. And it's just— it's socially acceptable. It certainly is. I mean, we live in a society where it's so entrenched in everything that we do, you know. You had— if you go to do your supermarket shopping and it's there on the shelves, it's there on social media, you know. We, we play a that in ourselves, don't we? We are promoting it and normalising it. Oh yeah. And, um, yeah, you can kind of, you can kind of understand. I mean, homeschooling, if you've ever had that experience, was enough to drive anyone to drink. But, you know, kind of, it's again, it's those comments that we use and we share and we normalise. And I don't think we realise how many people are actually, you know, it's becoming a bit more of an issue. We don't tend to talk about the issues that our drinking does, the more negative side of it. We tend to keep to ourselves, whereas we're quite happy sharing, you know, when we're all messed up going out for a night out, things like that. Whereas we don't really talk about maybe some of the negative impacts. In fact, sometimes I don't even think we're, we're really aware of how alcohol, you know, we drink sometimes to alleviate that anxiety, whereas it can actually cause anxiety, and we don't tend to talk about those issues quite as readily. Well, yeah, my friend calls it the fear when you know you've had possibly a bit too much to drink over the weekend, and then you know, come Sunday evening or Monday morning, like, I'm fearful about how much sleep I didn't get, how much money I've spent, how much time I possibly didn't spend with my children where I could have done. And there is— it really does impact us in so many different ways. And the wellbeing element, I mean, the thing is we want immediate gratification. We're kind of a nation of— it's just that way, that's that state that we're in currently, where sometimes we think, 'Oh, this is going to hurt tomorrow, but I'm going to enjoy it now because it's what I need right now.' And yeah, and that's partly, partly about how alcohol works, you know. It does work for those first few drinks, sort of alleviating anxiety, and it makes us feel relaxed. But then, because of how it works in a drug, it makes it more difficult when you've had 1 or 2 drinks to then stop, You know, you might have heard people say, "No, I've got no off switch," and once they've had one, we want more. And sometimes it can, you know, we then need more of it to get the same effects from it. So it's very easy to go from having that one or two drinks to it's "weskleh" quite quickly. Oh yeah, I mean, how many times have you said "hair of the dog"? Too many. Too many times. About 2 decades, Hazel, I was doing Hair of the Dog for. Yes, yeah, I can imagine. Do you know what? I was reading the section about advertising and how youths are targeted in your book, and what I mean about when I said in the introduction about how it was quite nostalgic, it was— I was thinking back to all the times, you know, when I was 16, 17, 18, where I was drinking pints because, you know, it was that female empowerment, and it's like, it's like going back in time and just remembering how progressive we thought we were. Or when I would go shopping in Sainsbury's with my mum and each shopping trip I was treated to the latest Alcopop that basically was like pineapple juice and it was, they were dressed up like Beetlejuice, SpongeBob, you know, I mean, you look back at it now and you think those Alcopops were not targeted for 18, 19-year-olds. Because they were wanting to be grown-ups. I mean, I had them on my windowsill. Well, it was certainly, you know, kind of— at that time it was all sort of girl power, wasn't it? So we see it as a bit of a cliché now, those things, but back in the day we were challenging the norms, you know. You know, in the, in the olden days, ladies would have a little, you know, half a pint was the norm. And so my generation were all about sort of showing who was boss and showing that we could do anything men could do and those kind of things. And yeah, of course, the Alcopops go down quite easily, and then it sort of progressed to, you know, the lager through the early years, and then it gets more sophisticated onto the wine. Yeah, so it's easy to see how it could— Well, when you think about it, alcopops, in a way, priming us to be addicted to alcohol. It's like, let's get them in, let's basically give them all the stuff that they normally have, like Irn-Bru, because they had alcoholic Irn-Bru at one point. They're like, get them in, get them interested in alcohol, and then, you know, progressively they'll move on to the less sweet stuff, the less childlike focused alcohol. And you just kind of think, whoa, that's appalling, isn't it? I mean, well, far be it to cast aspersions on the drinks industry. So when in the book we do look at— we want people to come to their own conclusions, but of course if you give a child a glass of wine, they'd spit it out straight away. You know, because it doesn't taste that appealing. But when you think to the alcopops that we were drinking, you know, in our youth, the hooch and things like that, they're all quite sweet, get us into the groove, and then we progress on to drinking more sophisticated, more complex drinks. Well, yet you didn't find many, many people over the age of 16 drinking 20/20 and hooch, did you? It was predominantly reserved for the under-16s who were hanging out sharing a 10-pack of Regal, you know, among 30 people. School discos, hanging out in the park, that kind of, that kind of thing, yeah. And then, then of course there's so much to do with our association. So I think we were, you know, the people who did the marketing of the Wine O'Clock, you know, just did such a fantastic job because, you know, most of my friends all went really quite heavily into wine. Yeah, I mean, you've seen it, the pink drinks, you know, they're all very quite alluring, they're all very, you know, appealing. It's been very well marketed to get us really hooked like and sinker into it. Well, that is what I mean about knowledge is power as well, because I'm fully aware that, you know, you will see more women buying the little tins of pink gin and tonic than you will blokes. However, when you actually see that it is targeted just you kind of feel like you've been duped a little bit. Knowledge really is power, and you just— I mean, as I said before, I do like drinking, I love the social aspects of it, and I'm a huge fan of cooking, and the idea of cooking 3 or 4 dishes without a glass of Merlot in hand, or Bordeaux, or whatever it is, depending on what I'm cooking, it feels perfectly acceptable because I'm doing something hearty. I mean, I'm baking scones, how on earth could I be possibly doing something socially unacceptable? I don't know, there's that image, isn't there, as well, of cooking. You're doing a nice cooking, you have a nice little drink to go with it. And, you know, like we say, we're not anti-alcohol. I think there's a lot of pleasure in that. I think it's, it's when it's you're drinking on your emotions, or when you're drinking a significant amount like I was. I mean, once I was getting through a bottle of wine a night, which was bad enough, but once I started getting into the second bottle, you know, then I had to really start questioning you know, is this really what's promoted and what's advertised, you know, is it the imagery, or that, you know, it's not really showing me sat dealing with anxiety, or just drinking because I've had a stressful day at work. So to me, there is, there's still pleasure to be had with alcohol, we still like going out with our friends, and like that social side, or yeah, definitely cooking, you know, that's a nice thing to do and have a drink with it. But then when it comes to Sorry Hazel, it's just when it comes to becoming— when you're relying on it daily and when you're drinking, you know, significantly more than you should, then you really are damaging your health then. And bizarrely it goes hand in hand with when something terrible happens. I was reading the section in your book about, and I hope you don't mind, it's in the book anyway, but talking about how going through something quite traumatic like a divorce, it just helps you get through, helps you stay a little bit calmer. But again, this is where you're learning these bad habits, because a divorce is not done and dusted in 2 or 3 months, you know. Even when there's been the end of a relationship, it can have long-lasting effects. And sometimes you stay in, and well, because you need to, because of mainly financial constraints. So boredom, and/or— I, I— it's very well known that when people are going through a divorce or they're about to go through a divorce, they go out more because they're craving connection and they're wanting to make sure, you know, that they have these ties to people for when they go through something quite horrendous, needing to see your friends because home isn't as nice as it could be. You don't go out and just sit there and drink coffee at 6 and 7 o'clock in the evening because you can't, because you have to sleep. Funnily enough, alcohol will help you sleep, get to sleep, you know what I mean? I mean, it's not— trust me, it's not the best sleep, but that's what a lot of people— this is what I mean, it goes hand in hand with pretty horrific— it definitely does. I mean, that's another one of the reasons why we use alcohol, isn't it? To numb our emotions and to a certain extent it does work. But, you know, if you're going through something life-changing like a bereavement or divorce or, you know, any number of things, it, you know, it works to a certain extent. But then there are so many people in this country, in fact globally, that suffer with anxiety and depression, which, you know, kind of, you know, these things are life experiences of the root cause. We use it to deal to sort of self-medicate. And then, and then you're in a bit of a sticky situation because then you get to a chicken and egg situation. It's like, which comes first, the anxiety, the depression? And they sort of feed into each other, and that's when it can start becoming a bit more of a problem, I think, for quite a lot of people. Well, and so you need to speculate to accumulate. And I love the whole concept of what you and Kate are talking about. You know, sometimes it's just baby steps. It's just just, you know, cutting a day out, seeing how you feel the next day, and then you kind of go, actually, that was really nice, and it encourages you to do a bit more, rather than just yo-yo dieting, you know. It's just creating better habits and implementing slightly more thoughtful practices. It's, um, it's interesting, the whole idea that people just think that if alcohol is potentially causing a problem in their life, they need to cut it out completely. Fine if you need to, but baby steps, you know. And I think, like you say, you can apply these same sort of principles to everything, really, can't you? Sort of the idea of moderation. Because to us, we didn't want to cut it out completely, and doing what was more realistic— it was more realistic for me to make cutbacks and get used to those than it was to just stop completely. Because what I would do in the times when I'd say, right, I'm not drinking anymore, or I'm not drinking for this whole month, is I'd get a few days in, and then if I slipped up and had a drink, then I'd just carry on drinking then, and I wouldn't attempt to change that behaviour for quite some time. Whereas if I just think, right, well, okay, be realistic, understand what alcohol is, how we're using it, and then get back to, right, okay, well, back to a reasonable, achievable plan, it's just more doable to me. Not for everybody, I must say. A lot of people find moderation harder than giving up completely, you know, it's just what works for you. But I found eventually, it took a bit of practice, Moderation's fine now, I can moderate effectively rather than not having to stop completely. Well, you know, it does take practice. I do remember at one point I was doing this thing where, I mean, I still pretty much do it now. I have a good 2 to 3, if I have 4 days off booze a week, you know, I'm quite happy with myself. But it used to be, especially in the pandemic, when I'd have 2 days definitely off, which was a lot harder. In the pandemic, it'd be like, oh well, I've had a drink now, so this is definitely not going to be one of my days off, so I might as well go, you know, hammer and tongs sort of thing. Yeah, well, definitely. And that's why you've got to know your own limitations, I think, hasn't it? If you know that if you're going to have a few, you might start later on in the day. If that's the case, you know, maybe instead of pouring a glass of wine when you get in from work at 6 o'clock or something like that, try and kind of keep— drink a little bit later, or really think about what you want to achieve would be one of our tips, really. If you're clear about what you're trying to achieve, it's easier to do it. If you're just sort of like faffing along, hoping that things will miraculously change themselves, or if you're only half-hearted, then it's much more difficult. So knowing why you want to do it is also a good tip as well, being really clear about what you want to achieve. Well, that's what, um, there was a— there's some fantastic quotes in this book, and one of them was A goal without a plan is just a wish. Yeah, it's that kind of idea, isn't it? Yeah, know why you want to do it. In our professional lives, we're kind of used to having targets, aren't we, about what we want to achieve and what we want to do, and we evaluate how we've done. So it's taking a similar idea, you know, and you can apply that depending on how much you're drinking. You know, if you've been drinking a bottle and a half of wine a night, abstinence forever might be a bit of a long shot. Yeah, you know, kind of really— I mean, what I should really say as well though is if you are drinking a lot, it can be quite dangerous just to stop. So it's really important that people seek medical help if that's what they need, because there is a lot of help out there that we're probably not really that aware of. Well, you have got different perspectives, you know, there's different elements that you talk about, different elements that Katherine Kell Clarke talks about, and then you've also got Sylvaine as well who has he's more of a practitioner, isn't he? And he, you know, because although you're offering a fantastic idea and a concept, you, you do quite often state, you know, you do need to seek a medical professional that to definitely clarify what it is that you need, you know. Yeah, we were really quite conscious when we were writing the book that, you know, kind of, we need to make sure people get the help that we need. We're here to sort of share our experiences and help where we can, but we're not doctors. And, you know, it was great having Sylvaine involved with the book because we really wanted to make sure all the information that we put in there was factually correct and that we weren't giving people misleading or dangerous advice, because obviously we want to help people, not kill anyone. Well, that would be the aim, obviously. A dastardly plan. It's interesting, so you've actually written this book book during the pandemic where you haven't been able to just sit there and chat about it. It's been done over various social media platforms, and you haven't even met Sylvain, have you? Not in real life, no, we've still not met him. All of this is, we conducted it all through, well, we tried everything. We tried Zoom, Teams, all those things, and sometimes the technology was really helpful. Sometimes, like this morning, we kind of have challenges that we had to get through. So it's quite bizarre really that I've not seen Kel Clarke for over 2 years now. It's very odd that we've done it all through the medium of technology. It is a bit strange. And yet brilliant that we know that we can actually still get on and get by and actually create something spectacular even if we don't get to actually see each other. Well, can you imagine how much more difficult it would have been if we'd not had this resource to stay connected with people? It would have been a completely different experience, wouldn't it? It would be be far worse, I think. Yeah, completely. Now, I want— the next kind of thing I want to go into is a little bit more about Catherine and a little bit more about who Sylvaine is so that we can tell our listeners what to expect in the book. Yeah, okay, well Catherine Kellogg Clark and I used to work together in a school as primary school teachers several years ago. And we left that school and then things kind of moved along as, as lives do. And then very, very sadly, Kate's mum passed away during the pandemic. Yeah. And so we kind of reconnected through that experience. Obviously, I was offering my sympathy and things like that, and we sort of got talking about what we were doing. And so initially, Kate and her husband Martin were planning on just sort of looking through my business plan for me and using their experience because Kate Kate and Martin have got extensive experience of running pubs themselves, and I'm sure in the book Kate tells you a lot about her sort of globetrotting and different experiences. And so kind of as we got talking about it, our drinking and what we were doing, and then it just sort of evolved by itself really, that Kate decided that she'd come on board with the business. And then one of the things we said we would do is to write a book to sort of go along with some courses and individual training to help people. So that was the plan. So Kate sort of held me to account and said, look, you've said here you're writing a book on this business plan. I think we should do it. So of course I was like, well, do you think we really can? And she was like, yeah, of course we can. She's very positive. And so it just sort of took on a life of its own, really. And then Sylvaine is somebody I met on LinkedIn who was a complete random stranger but has lots of experience. You really couldn't make it up. Who's got lots of experience of working for the NHS and this is his area of expertise. And when I told him about the business and what the plan was, he got on board as well and said, I'm really interested and I'll do whatever I can to help you, which was just unbelievably kind of him. And so it's sort of— that's where we started. And so we asked Sylvain if he wouldn't mind writing a few chapters in the book just to sort of share his experiences as an expert from because obviously we know some of the things he must have seen, you know, from people getting really well, to not so many, some positive, not so positive outcomes. So it was just good to get his experience, not necessarily because we thought our readers were sort of alcoholics, if you will, but just sort of his understanding of the things that he's seen is really fascinating and really interesting to listen to. There was, yeah, quite a variety of case studies that he talked about, which hopefully the listeners can at least relate to one, maybe two of them. And also because he shared his own story of growing up and being surrounded by alcohol, the kind of male-focused environment where it was definitely unacceptable for females to drink, but, but it was expected of him from the age of 9, 10, 11, very, very normal and how that does pave your way and give you a quite interesting understanding of consumption really. But it was nice that everybody had their own story so you can relate to it and it's not just somebody preaching at you. But another thing I found quite interesting is the research you went through. Now that must have been interesting. I mean, actually This book, yes, it's helpful. Yes, it's nostalgic. I did find it quite entertaining at some points, which I know is an interesting thing to say. But I mean, I'm definitely— this was something that I was interested in anyway, because I know that I want to make slight changes to my approach to alcohol. But the research and how far it dates back, and, you know, we're sitting there going, oh, you know, let's blame Al Capone. No, I think you said something like 10,000 BC, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really fascinating looking at kind of the different cultures, and, you know, we look at what— how people used to drink in ancient Egypt, or, you know, kind of that assumption that we make about prohibition not working. So just looking into how it— how it's worked, we kind of— I— well, I'd always assumed that it was quite, um, quite a modern problem, whereas when you look at the history of it, it's a really fascinating subject. Yes, it really is. I must say to anybody, even if you don't necessarily think that you have any issues to address with alcohol, read it because it's just an interesting book. It really is. Thank you, Malède. I'd like to think that some of the references— I mean, I read a lot myself, but I'd you know, I kind of wouldn't follow up the references, but we were hoping that we'd signpost people so they can find out the bit of themselves that they found particularly interesting and sort of lead them down their own research to find out a bit more themselves. Yeah, and even just to find out about, you know, what was the particular research study you read about booze poos? Oh, that was Kate who did that one, yeah, she kind of looked at— we took different sections of the book that we were kind of interested in as we broke it down, so yeah, Kate really looked at the effects on the human body and, yeah, the issues it can cause with various different things. I think booze and poos might be self-explanatory, but you might have to read it yourself. Just to put it into perspective, yeah. But also it's pointing out there's quite a lot of us— I don't know whether it's— I know that metabolism decreases as we get into our late 30s, 40s, and 50s, and You know, we seem to have a little bit more of middle-aged spread, but that does go hand in hand with us drinking a little bit more because we can afford it, and it's dinner parties, and it's wine, which is so incredibly calorific. I mean, I sometimes— I eat incredibly healthy, you know, I'm predominantly a vegetarian, and I try and cut out desserts, but I do like a doughnut, but I'd have a doughnut and I'd feel bad However, a doughnut is equal to a medium glass of red wine, and I will happily drink 6 glasses of red wine. You wouldn't see me eating 6 doughnuts in a row, and we just forget about how calorific it is. And I go back to our point of knowledge is power, sitting there going, well, I've been to the gym 6 times this week, I've only eaten vegan food, cut out cheese, cut out bread, and I treat myself to a couple of glasses of wine a night. And I'm thinking, that's the problem. Cut out the booze and go back to McDonald's. Oh, I used to have a cheek. I used to sit and say to people, oh, I don't have a sweet tooth, you know. I'd never think about going out and having a dessert if I'd gone out for dinner or something like that. But then you look at the amount of sugar I was getting through, through the wine, and it was no wonder I was sort of wondering why I couldn't move the sort of the jelly belly. It was like, why? I'm going to the gym, I'm eating well. It's like, oh yeah. So even for vanity reasons, cutting down your drinking, you know, you can lose quite a lot because those glasses of wine soon add up. Well, it was interesting, I was saying this to a friend yesterday who, she's going to a family wedding and she's trying to lose weight and she's like, it's just not happening. And I told her about, I went away, I've got 2 boys and I went away just with my 2 boys to this fantastic all-inclusive resort in, I think it's Thailand, and I ate my way through all the incredible food, but because I was with my children, the most I'd have is maybe 1, 2 3 cocktails a day, and that wasn't even every day because I was just with my children, you know, and it was— there wasn't that social element. And it was actually about— because it was before the pandemic, it was a good 3 or 4 years ago. And, you know, I would never get particularly tipsy with just my children in a foreign country because it's not safe, okay? I'm just being a little bit conscious. And I came back and I was like, I'd lost weight, I'd lost weight and been to an all-inclusive place, eaten my way through everything, but because I wasn't particularly drinking, I'd lost weight. And I was going, "It just shows you." Yeah, and we— all these different things link into your wellbeing, don't they? Kind of, you— how much you're drinking might have an impact on how much you're eating. And they all, all these little things interlink together to form the bigger picture of our wellbeing overall, really. And then, you know, alcohol can play quite a detrimental part to it. But again, without kind of taking away— we don't want to take away the fun from it either, you know, you know, we do and still enjoy a drink. Well, something that really struck me the day before we were told that all the pubs were going to close, and it was our first panic, right? And it was like a Friday, it was going to happen on the Saturday, wasn't it? And that's right, yeah. We all head out on the Friday going, quick, last hurrah!. And I remember speaking to this slightly elderly lady at the bar, and I was like, um, oh, who are you meeting? She goes, I'm not meeting anybody. I'm here because, well, my husband died about 6 months ago, and I'm incredibly lonely. And if I don't go to the pub and get some social interaction, then the onus is put on my grandchildren and my children, and I need to keep that independence 'So I come here just so I've got a social element,' she goes, 'I'll drink a glass of wine or tea, but I'm not bothered what it is. I only drink the booze because otherwise people think it's a bit weird drinking a cup of tea at 8 o'clock on a Friday night.' And I was like, this is where the pandemic's going to get people. People don't go to the pubs just to get drunk. It is a social element. It is— it was so important to her because she thought in the pandemic she's going to be a burden to her family because they would feel they would need to see her more because she wasn't out and about, you know, and socialising with randoms. And there are so many important elements to the social aspects of drinking, and, you know, it— I, I think we need to address that. Yeah, but I mean, we— in, in the book we did some research, you know, there's lots of— some research suggests that going to the pub for that very reason can be good for our mental health because that's where a lot of people might socialise with other people, and that connectedness is something that if you don't have it, that can bring around its own issues as well. So we're definitely not anti-pubs, you know, we've seen how much they've struggled throughout this pandemic and the thought that so many of them will close is a horrible feeling because they're such— they're kind of like the heart of the community, aren't they, where people still like to go and be with other people and things like that. So they are important places, I think. I think you've just given a really good example of if you're on your own, you know, going to the pub and having a drink with your friends is going to be really good for your wellbeing. I mean, even if you didn't have an alcoholic drink, it's still good to connect with other people. We need that to feel well, don't we? Or most of the time, we might need a bit of space every now and again, but we do need as human beings that contact with other people. Well, I also, I mean, I, it doesn't matter, I mean cafes in the day, maybe pubs in the evening, but I find it easier to get, I mean I have to do a lot of reading for my work, I have to do a lot of writing because I do a lot of blogging, I'm writing my own book, and all of these things I can only do outside the house. If I'm in the house I have the cat, the dog, the kids, the washing, the dishwasher, you suddenly spot a spider's web that you've suddenly got to sort, and you have the the access to sorting things that are on your to-do list, whereas if you're in a café or a pub, you can just get on with the job in hand. And I was so unproductive during the pandemic because I didn't have that place to go. Yeah, I think there's kind of— people have got really mixed feelings, aren't they, about sort of working from home. For some people it worked particularly well and they enjoyed it and managed that really effectively, and other people for that very reason, you know, if you've got children and animals and you're trying to maintain a home, it's quite difficult to focus on one thing at a time, isn't it? So yeah, I imagine a lot of people do use that space too. I mean, I'm not sure you'd want to be in the pub 8 hours a day. I don't know how much work you'd get done then. You'd be surprised. Shall I try it for some research for the next book? Yes, you do that. If you want, I'll come and help. I can be your research assistant. But this is the thing, you do still drink, you just try and drink less, and to acknowledge the reasons why you're drinking, and just be a bit more inward, looking inward at what your motivations are, so that you can make better choices. And this is, you know, what alcohol, we considered, Educate Moderation is all about, yeah, you have a read and you suddenly, you've got plenty of ideas in there. It's not one particular way. And yeah, that's the one thing I would say is people, you need to give some of these things time. You know, you can't, if you just try one thing over a week and then you fall down, you're like, oh, that didn't work and we'll try something else. Sometimes you've got to just pick one thing and stick with it for a little bit and maybe really ingrain that. It might be that you want to go Monday to Thursday without drinking. That might take a bit of practice. That might not be something that you, that you nail straight away. Well, what I find, and this can work on so many different levels, like I sometimes get too tired to actually go and really involve myself in my fitness regime. So I'll have one week where I insist on getting up early 5 mornings in that week and going to the gym. But I can't do that every single week. So then the next week it might be that at some point in the day I've got to do 20 minutes of yoga every day. It's different things, but you're breaking other habits, but still having variety and just creating new pathways, I guess. You know, you can mix it up. You don't have to decide on one particular route and stick with it. You know, it's all about breaking old habits. You can create whatever habits you want in whatever capacity. And I think it's to do with time, isn't it? We kind of use alcohol as a way to relax, and I think because a lot of people are so busy looking after the kids and looking after older relatives and fitting in the work, that they've kind of lost track of the things that they were really interested in themselves. And I think it, you know, if you, when you make alcohol less of a focus, you're going to be more successful if you think, how, well, it's going to create a bit more time, what do I want to do with that time? I think preparing for that is almost just as important as if you're just going into something saying, "Oh, well, I'm not going to drink," then you've just left this, "Well, what am I doing now then, other than not drinking?" If you've really thought it through, and think about how you want to be spending your time, or it might be an interest that you've dropped, that can really help, I think. Yeah, I mean, you've got the time to read, especially you have a lot less time if you've got a hangover in the morning, but you can find time to read, you can find time to actually go out and exercise or chat to somebody or, you know, start journaling that you've been wanting to do. There are so many different things. And maybe encourage yourself by writing down everything that you want to try and achieve in time— well, in time that you actually are going to create by drinking less. The time it takes to go to a pub, the time it takes to recover, the time you spend overconsumed with guilt, regret, the shame, the fear, you name it. Prepare yourself for the amount of time you're going to have. Well, that's it. I mean, from my own perspective, I used to be a teacher and I'm a single parent, so by the time I'd finished everything that I needed to get through during the day, it was pouring the wine. And that, looking back on reflection, I wasn't really thinking about what I was using my time for, what my interests were. You know, I came, like a lot of people do, right at the bottom of the pile. And I didn't try and stop thinking about drinking. I've read so many books about it, I'm really interested in reading it, so it's not like, don't think about the drinking. But then I started thinking, well, what did I like doing at school? So I sort of picked up a guitar again. Like you say, journaling's a really— sorry, I did read that. I read that you were like, every now and again you'd play the guitar. I don't think the neighbors are very pleased about it. They're not very pleased. I mean, it's good for me. I'm not sure it's good for them. No, I didn't like it. I don't think I'll be joining a band or anything soon. You don't have to be good at anything to want to sort of explore it again, do you? You know, kind of writing, reading, all those things. And painting again. I don't think I'll be winning any awards soon, but just nice to spend a bit more time doing something that was a bit more constructive than just chuck in the wine. So are you telling me that you didn't receive the email I sent to you, Leslie, saying that, um, I would like at least, um, one track played by your guitar? Ah, I would not inflict that on anyone. Not ready, not ready. Maybe next year if the neighbors have not killed me. I have visions of them going 'Pick up the wine again!' Yeah, just take a drink again. It's just like you're a gin hamper for drinkers. Wow, we digress. So something else that I genuinely did email to you, not about a little ditty on the guitar, is we do like on GetBooked from our guests 3 of their favourite TV tips on good mental well-being? Yeah, this was tricky. Now, I'd never presume to tell somebody else what to do, and I really struggle sometimes with this well-being because it all sounds very well in theory, but in practice could be quite a lot more challenging. But I think for me, I try and keep it— really focus on the basics, you know, the boring stuff that we all know, like, am I eating well? Am I sleeping well? Because those two things are really important. So I try and always look at them and if this— am I worrying too much? So I think the first thing is really keeping it to the basics and then thinking, right, well, what's affecting that? So it might be if I'm not sleeping well, I'm thinking about my mental health. Is there something going on that I need to think about? And I think that it's really important to make some time just for yourself to think. So what I used to do was get up and I put the news on straight away. So all of, you know, you start in your day with doom and gloom, aren't you? What I do now is I've set my alarm half an hour before my little boy gets up, just so I can have a cup of coffee in peace, just to sort of think about what I want to do that day, which all sounds very airy-fairy, but it really does start— it's a better way to start your day than watching the news, I think. Oh yeah, completely. Especially at the minute, I just can't— I just don't think we can handle any more bad news. And I think that helps to it helps to keep perspective. I think that's another thing. When there's so many different things going on, our minds are racing, we're always go, go, go, we're always busy, busy, busy. Having some time to really prioritize your own health, um, mental and physical, and create a bit of space for yourself can then give you a bit more perspective so that you're not overthinking, or a bit of time to think. So it's balance, isn't it? And it's easier said than done, I think. And I think our well-being is something that's ongoing, isn't it? You're never in one fixed place. It's interchangeable depending on what's happening in your life. But really, from all of that, it's just getting back to the why, you know, really thinking about what it is that will help. Yeah, and, and realising that whatever may help now might not help in 2 or 3 years. So we're a constant work in progress, and we need to re-evaluate regularly and stop judging ourselves. We're all trying to be perfect all the time, aren't we? And we're kind of dealing with very difficult things going on. So I think we need to lower our expectations of ourselves a little bit and stop trying to, you know, if we get things wrong from time to time, not beating ourselves up about it rather than just trying to be perfect all the time. More self-acceptance, which is always, it sounds very airy-fairy, doesn't it? But, you know, I do think we're quite hard on ourselves sometimes. Yeah, completely. And I wouldn't want to be perfect. In fact, I actively try not to be. It's very boring to be perfect, but how unattainable is that? And how isolating is that? People don't want to hang out with or be able to share their problems with somebody who's perfect because it makes them feel inferior, you know. Well, that's it. I mean, you know, we're working so many hours, there's so much to juggle. I think we need to just be a bit more, a bit more realistic about what we can achieve. Yes, you know, anything that creates more time for yourself is, is a good thing, isn't it? You know, sometimes maybe we need to be better at saying no to some things rather than agreeing to do everything and then being a bit resentful. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And actually, I've been terrible at setting boundaries, you know, setting the clearer boundaries about what's achievable for me and prioritizing yourself. Easier said than done, I think. We're a lot kinder to other people than we are to ourselves often, aren't we? I think so. Yeah. Something else that I do like to also ask my guests, on the basis that there are— we're always on social media, it's been a way that we've been connected in the pandemic as well. There's some fantastic influencers out there, there's some really rubbish ones as well. There's some great politicians, there's some rubbish politicians. There's some funny people out there and there's some downright damaging ones. And I like to give people options and encourage them to search out the ones that are going to contribute to their life. And so I like to ask my guests, who do you think in the public eye is smashing it out the park? Who, who's good to watch? Who really does make your day and make you feel like humanity on the up? Well, it's a really difficult question to answer that because I'm really inspired by people that, especially women who are older than me, which are really changing how we're perceived as older women because, you know, it's all used to be when you get to a certain age you're invisible. So anybody who's really challenging that in whatever way I think is really inspiring. But I think hats off really, if it comes to somebody, it's got to be the Queen, hasn't it? I mean, for someone to have everything that she's had thrown at her and still manage to be so dignified without ever dropping a ball just seems quite inspiring to me. I don't know how she keeps it together. I think I might have lost it if I was her by now at some point. Well, really ironically, she is one of the people I would love to sit there with a bottle of wine, possibly get her a little bit tipsy, and say, go on, tell us the truth. Oh, I mean, what the stories she must be able to tell. And she's had so many different— when you look at even from like a career perspective as being the Queen, you kind of look at all the difficult challenges she's had to deal with within her family over the years and the public face she's had to put on it. Must have been incredibly difficult. Uh, yes, definitely. And I don't think I could have done it. Um, no, she does it with great poise, doesn't she? But I think she does I gather she's got quite an interesting sense of humour, which I suppose she would have to develop. Oh, the stories I imagine she could tell you. Well, that's the thing, I really do. You know, if you could just sit in a room with somebody and just say, right, where they unequivocally believed that anything they said to you was going nowhere and you could just ask anything, oh, I'd have an absolute feel, though. Yeah, you know, like I say, people who deal with difficult situations tend to be more inspiring than people who are maybe a bit more self-serving and paying lip service or something for the cold hard cash. Yeah, being disingenuous. We are running out of time, unfortunately, but something that I did want to talk about, which I think would be a good end point, is the fantastic acronym on page 63 when you're talking about how people should embrace their moderation, and it's SMART. So Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Timely. If you can talk us through a little bit about that and how people people can use this fantastic acronym to, to help their journey? Well, it's all to do again with those targets, isn't it? A lot of people will be used to hearing that acronym at work. It's about having targets that are realistic and that they're time-bound and that you can— that are easily measurable. So for example, you might have a target which is I'm not going to drink more than 14 units a week. So you're keeping it really specific. Okay. And it might not be that, you might just want to reduce it to one drink a night or whatever it is. So something that's really quite specific and you give it a certain amount of time, I think, to make sure it takes effect. Like if you just do it one week, it might not be as effective. It might be that this month I'm only going to drink this amount, and there might be exceptions if you're going to, I don't know, a wedding or things like that, but that you're really clear and that you can measure that success, because if you're building on things that are positive, you're more likely to make changes. Yeah, and again, it's just having, having a goal, having a plan, and being able to put that into place. Otherwise you're just kind of wandering around or drifting along like I did. I mean, what I really hope the book will do is— it took me a long time to reach some of my conclusions What I really hope that it does is cut that time down that somebody else might need exploring all these different things that it took me that time to do. So I hope it does help. I think it will help many people, and, and it's— it is a fantastic book. And I want to point out as well that, you know, people can go on to my review of the book's going to be going up on Hazel Butterfield soon, but they can get it from Amazon for £8.99 on ebook and £9.99 from paperback. I do hope when this comes out in Audible, it's going going to be you chatting about it, because I think it'll come across a lot better with a good old, you know, West Yorkshire Northern accent, right? Oh yeah, well, and Kate's from New Zealand as well, so you should get a flavour of Kate as well from her audio. Yeah, a little bit. Thank you ever so much for having the opportunity to talk about it, because I do know how big a problem it is for so many people. It is, and I just think I'm so glad it's done in a way it's positioned in a way that— I know I said it's entertaining, but it is. It's, you know, thank you. It informed me while still making it an interesting read without feeling like I'm getting told off by somebody because possibly I haven't stuck to my 14 units. And, you know, also you could actually relate to it, especially when— has anybody ever told the truth to their doctor about how many units they consume in a week? Not in my experience, and that unless the people who were quite teetotal, even my friends who were very, very moderate drinkers admit to lying to their doctor. I think it's just sort of inbuilt, something that everybody does. It is, isn't it? You know, bring on the British drink. How much did you drink? How much am I allowed to drink? Yeah, I had 20, no, 12 '6 units?' A liar! Yeah, and then we play this game with the doctor, don't we? We're sort of halving it and the doctor's doubling it because they know what we're doing, and we get into this kind of nonsense about what we're really drinking. And where nobody actually really knows what anybody else has had. I also want to point out to all of our listeners as well that they can pop on to alcoholreconsidered.com. If you just want to briefly let them know what they'll, they'll see on the website and how that's going to help them. Well, at the minute, Kate and I are still in discussions about the best way of bringing other support to people, so we're working on our blogs to help people through Go Sober October at the moment, and we'll be keeping people updated with where we're going next. There might be an Alcohol Reconsidered 2, and then we're going to be doing some online support sessions at some point, so keep— watch that space. Oh, and what do we expect in Alcohol Reconsidered book number 2? I'm still pondering that at the moment. Maybe some real life stories, Hazel. Get some of the people who've tried it, is what I'm thinking. Wow, can I be involved? Yes, you can. I would love you to be involved because I am definitely appreciating how much more I'm getting done. You can be so much more productive, uh, when you're not hungover or wasting your time in pubs. If only I knew, if only I could rewind time. Would you do it any differently? I don't know, maybe. The wonder of turning back time. Yes, so you can pop on to alcoholreconsidered.com, and you're on all various social medias. And thank you so much for joining us here for Get Booked on Women's Men's radio station. Alcohol Reconsidered: Education of Moderation by Lesley Miller, who's joined us in the studio today, and Katherine Kell Clarke. Hopefully we'll be able to be in a studio by the time you release the next book and both of you will be able to, and you might have even met Sylvaine by then. Possibly, who knows, as long as we don't end up locked down again at any point. Oh, don't say that, don't jinx it. No, I won't say that. No, that's going to make it a lot harder for people to reconsider their alcohol choices if we end up in another lockdown. But I do wish all of our listeners the best health. I hope you've enjoyed listening to us today, and I'd love to hear your stories. Please do get in touch. You can get in touch on @getbookedwrs on Instagram, or you can get in touch at hazelbutterfield.com, or to Lesley herself at alcoholreconsidered.com with your stories and how you have been reconsidering considering your alcohol consumption, and I'd love to know what you think of the book. Thank you so much, Lesley, for joining us, and I look forward to having you in the studio again. Look forward to seeing you soon, Hazel. Thank you. Thank you. Do you want to improve your health, maybe lose some weight and get fitter, or perhaps save a few pennies? It could be something like wanting to avoid hangovers and potentially serious health problems in later life, it could be more complicated, such as wanting to improve your relationships and work more productively. It could also be none of these reasons and something entirely unique to you. As we discussed in today's interview, SMART is an acronym for specific, measurable, Achievable, relevant, and timely. Let's break that down even further. Specific— or what are you hoping to achieve with regard to your drinking? What are you hoping to accomplish? This could be viewed as the mission statement and your need to consider the W questions: who, what, when, where, which, and why when thinking about this. Measurable, or how will you know when you've achieved your goal? Set some milestones and think about specific tasks or things that you hope to accomplish. Achievable, or how important is changing your relationship with alcohol to you? What do you need to achieve this goal? Do you have the toolbox or support or skills you need? If not, how can you get them? R, relevant, or why are you setting this goal? T, timely, or how long do you intend to give yourself? Remember, it takes time to rewire your brain and reset your thinking. Set a realistic time frame to make the changes, but remember not to be too lenient on yourself either. Without realistic timing, it's very likely they are not going to succeed. That is a fantastic part from page 63 of Alcohol Reconsidered by today's guest, Leslie Miller, co-written with Catherine Kell Clark. And you can go and check out more information on alcoholreconsidered.com. If you would like to sponsor Get Booked, please do get in touch with us via our website at womensradiostation.com, or if you want, you can email us directly me at hazel@womensradiostation.com or contact me via hazelbutterfield.com. Thank you for listening.