Get Booked – Lulu Wood, “Milkshakes For The Almost Dead”

Hello, I'm Hazel and this is Get Booked for Women's Radio Station and Men's Radio Station, a show all about books and writing which focus on supporting our emotional well-being. Another quick reminder about a fabulous new initiative here at Men's Radio Station and Women's Radio Station and our collaboration, collaboration if I can say it properly, with Mental Health Solutions in Business who are offering £100,000 free mental health courses for NHS and frontline workers. Full details of this groundbreaking initiative are available on both the men's radio station website and msbhelp.co.uk. Please go and check it out. And I hope you're all well and ready to get booked. Today, joining me remotely in the COVID studio, as I like to call it, is Lulu Wood, the author of Milkshakes for the Almost Dead, part of the Girls and Monsters trilogy. And people say you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but in this case we can. The narrative of this book is just as fantastic as you want it to be. Snappy short chapters nailing the complexities and intricacies of teenage and adult life and mental well-being. Throw in some ball-achingly wealth-centered misogyny— oh, we love a bit of misogyny— unrequited love and jealousy. It is just absolutely fantastic. There's some fantastic conversations and unapologetically strong female characters that I just absolutely loved. I introduce to you Lulu. Hello! Oh, hi! Hi, how are you? Thanks for that glorious lead-in. Well, one does try, you know. Yeah, I know, I appreciate it. Much appreciated. I'm trying my best not to get tongue-tied. I'm ridiculously excited. I've managed to have a really nice relaxing coffee. The kids are at school I'm not as multitasking as I normally need to be, and the cat and the dog have semi-promised to be quiet. You are literally self-caring. You are self-caring at the end of the time. Good for you. Good for you. I know the quiet. My daughter's gone back to school today, and, you know, I miss her, but it's phenomenal, the peace. You know, I don't— I'm not— You know that you love your kids. Like, I don't feel like you ever have to kind of go, oh, you know, I do love my children. But, you know, it's, it's that headspace is because I'm an introvert. Everyone thinks I'm an extrovert, but I'm definitely an introvert. Like, I need some time. And today kind of feels a bit like a revelation. Do you know what? My youngest went back on Thursday. My oldest didn't go back till Friday, and it was only for a half day. It's kind of irrelevant with the oldest because he's 13 and spends most of his time in his bedroom. So you hardly even know he's there anyway. But it was so It's so weird because before lockdown we were all like running around like headless chickens, getting to do so much, and it kind of— of all the negative things, one of the positive things of COVID is that we all managed to slow down a little bit. And when Jacob went back to school on Thursday, it felt like stepping back in time and it was weirdly exhausting. Yeah, and also, have you noticed— this is a massive segue— but have you noticed like your diary starting to fill up a bit again, like get a bit busy with— and don't get me wrong, these are people that I've missed and that I love, and everyone's kind of a bit less reluctant to have a kind of socially distanced coffee. And, you know, although I'm keeping my eye on the numbers, you know, obviously it's this, the second wave and all that, but— and actually that's the bit that's making me a bit sad because I've liked that space. I've, you know, I don't want to see people, I just really want to manage my diary hard so that I can kind of retain some of that space that we found, you know, to not be constantly busy. I'm completely with you on that because, you know, the football training's coming back in again. You don't have the excuse that we need to be socially distancing and not having huge groups, so now people are kind of like, "Well, we can have at least 6 people around your house, Hazel." I'm like, "Oh, really?" Yeah, and it's not just the you know, it's not just the, the anxiety and the, the, you know, the kind of corona aspect of it. It is genuinely that, you know, all of a sudden your, your brain is getting flooded with all these new kind of triggers. And actually, it's almost like you've kind of given it a detox. Like, I feel like we kind of gave ourselves like a brain detox a bit, and, and now it's, it's getting all busy and noisy and cluttered again. And I'm really desperate to to hold on to some of that peace, but let's see, let's see what happens. Well, we'll see, I mean, I think some people will, their lives will have changed completely because they, I know places where they have said you will not ever be expected to come back into work again, you will be working remotely. Some people are having, say, one day a week or one day a month where they come into the office, offices are closing down because it's just not needed. People are trying to work from home more, which means we don't have the commute, we don't have to sort as much, we don't need as much childcare. It's kind of life-changing in so many different ways. Yeah, that changing expectation of going in and out of town every day, like, that's the norm, and if you break it, you're asking for a bit too much. And actually, it's been flipped. I know there are loads of repercussions in terms of town centres and, you know, an entire— like, almost an entirely new way of working and You know, it remains to be seen, I guess, how it will play out. But I think, yeah, if we can drag the positives out of it, I think that will be a bonus. Yeah, because you say people's lives have changed, people have lost people, you know, and it's not done, is it? So that's the thing, you have to keep reminding yourselves it's not done yet. So— Yeah, there are places going into localised lockdowns here, there, and everywhere. And what I have actually realised, it kind of struck me this morning when I was walking my dog, that I used to write a lot, and I haven't been able to write, predominantly because I can't write when the kids are running around, but I used to sit in a really nice bar and drink a glass of fizz somewhere, or even just a nice coffee, and that would give me the headspace to write, and I've suddenly just gone, wait a minute, I can start doing that again. Do you know, I've read so much stuff on Twitter. I'm not very good at Twitter. I'm trying, I'm really trying, I've really started trying. I've totally got the hang of Instagram, I'm trying to get the hang of Twitter, And, but I used to use Twitter as a kind of— I used to lurk, you know, and just kind of read Obama's tweets and things like that, and, you know, just cry hopeful tears. And, but I saw a lot on Twitter saying, you know, when people are grieving for the things they're grieving for, you know, obviously some people are actually grieving for people that they've lost, and it's shocking and terrible. And then there's also a way of life that we're grieving, and for writers definitely, Many, many people that write for a living, whether that's, you know, short-form content or books, and they have a space that they go to, like a coffee shop or somewhere they go to, and they can sit there all day. You know, they kind of give themselves a limit of like £10 a day on coffees and sandwiches, and they sit there all day, and that's their office, and that's where they write. And people have been— I think it's thrown people's structures and, and habits as well as as well as, you know, the emotional weight of actually living through a pandemic. But, you know, it's changed those things. Like, we had coffee offices we went to, and they've gone, you know. And again, there's a lot worse, I know, I absolutely know it, you know. Gosh, that's a privilege. But still, you can still look back and go, yeah, that's what I used to do. So are you doing it, Hazel? Are you going out and writing? Well, this is the first week that I'll be able to do it. Right, okay. So I'm hoping this week that I'm gonna get back into it again. I mean, it's just— I'm really excited about it, but it just feels a little bit post-apocalyptic that all of a sudden the kids are going back. They're wearing masks around school, there's staged times and we all have to keep our distance, we're not allowed to loiter, and when you get your kid, they've just said, 'Go and get it. If you want to chat with people, go to a park, just don't go in the playground.' And it just feels a little bit kind of World War II-esque, and it is bizarre. And like, even my youngest son, he's quite, you know, he's independent, he's, you know, we've moved to a place where it's about a 2-minute walk away from school, and he's asking me to walk him into school at the moment because it just feels a bit weird. Yeah, it just needs a bit more kind of comfort and consolation. Yeah, I get it, I totally get it. I think we all do. But you were just saying then about going out for a coffee, And honestly, it like triggered me a bit. Like, the idea of going and sitting in a coffee shop and writing, I felt myself instinctively— like, my therapist always says, like, notice where you feel things, like notice the reaction in your body. And I always know that if I feel anything in my neck, it's tension. Like, I feel anxiety. And the minute you were saying it, I was thinking, oh yeah, I could do that. And my neck went, ah, like, no, it's scary. Oh no, isn't it? We've all got like low-level PTSD. You know, from this thing that we've been through. I tell you what would be really interesting to see, the writing that does come out of it, and, you know, the kind of reflection on it that the kind of new, whether it's sci-fi or, you know, it won't be sci-fi I guess, but it'll be really interesting to see how people kind of present the feelings that they've had in their writing. It'll be interesting to watch. I think interestingly as well, I think there are many people who have been saying for, whether it's months, years, or decades, you know, most people think they've got a book in them, and then finally some people have actually had the time, not key workers, but people who were furloughed, or it was forced upon them that they couldn't do anything. All these people have suddenly had time to actually write the book, or, you know, just write in general, as if, you know, they were editing their life. Yeah, yeah, well, it's— and that's actually when you see, that's when you realize how avoidant often writing is. You're just a bit like, I will do anything, I will put the hoover over, I will weed the garden rather than write. Like, it shows you really, if you really want to do it, you know. I'm not saying it's always easy, but if you really want to do it, you've got to sit down and do it. So, yeah, the space has been a— what people have done with the space, like, I've lost a bit of weight in lockdown, just because my husband and I, you know, we both like food, we both like booze, and we kind of thought this can go one of two ways. So we decided to be good at the beginning of lockdown, and we've both lost some weight. And I love, I love exercise. Like, it's so— it's good for you physically, it's good for you mentally. And so we've both kind of been exercising and just taken that space to do it. And it's really interesting, every— anybody I see that I haven't seen for a while who hasn't, you know, and most people, I think, well, not most people, lots of people have put on a few pounds because you're at home all the time, you know, you're snacking, food is a quick comfort if you're feeling anxious, and, you know, so many of us have relationships with food. And so quite a few people have put on like a few pounds or have a stain or whatever. And then if I see them straight away, it's almost like in seeing me and noticing that I've lost a bit of weight, they kind of start apologizing for themselves. And I— and it's like, wow, it makes me feel horrible. I kind of want to say, can we not even talk about it? Like, I— you do you and I'll do me. And I know what it's like more than— gosh, more than most to carry weight and to have feelings about that. Like, you know, try and feel confident about it and feel positive about it, even though that you're carrying some weight. And this is— I'm talking like 7 stone in weight. Like, I was 7 stone Anyway, at one point, and, um, but you know, my people's need straight away to kind of say, oh, it's terrible, you know, I did this and I ate this, and oh God, we got biscuits, it's terrible, we got biscuits. And it's like, what are you doing? If you've come through this with your mental health, like, if you're sane and those Maltesers saved you, thank God for Maltesers. Like, you know, if you're not, if you're not depressed If somehow, if you know, sometimes food is the comfort that we take to, you know, to give ourselves some easy endorphins. And, you know, and if you're not, if you're not depressed because, and you've put on a little bit of weight, honestly, that's no bad thing. And so it's, but it's really, I really notice it when I, when I see people and I kind of really want to say, it's just, I just like exercise and I just like, I just like having the time to do it. And, you know, I'll probably put it all back on by Christmas, but, you know, it's nice to have the space to do it. But please don't, please don't, especially women, you know, women to other women, feeling the need to kind of justify, you know, 3 extra pounds, like, oh my gosh, no one's judging you, you know, or should be judging you. Well, everyone's been doing it, but these were the actual stages of lockdown, though, wasn't it? It was like, it was kind of a little— well, there was many memes about it, but it was, it was kind of actually quite entertaining how everybody went from eating everything and cleaning everything, and everybody followed pretty much the same journey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're absolutely— yeah, it was, um, and people like— some people started out really good and like really like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna do a new fitness regime, and then 3 weeks in they were like, oh my goodness, I just need to survive this. And I think anything I don't know, I guess my main thing is whatever you do for you, you know, just make that decision and do it. And even if you feel like you didn't make that decision, you didn't consciously decide to eat a bit more cake, but you ate a bit more cake, who cares? Like, it's a little bit more cake while there was a global pandemic. Exactly. Just Yeah, just stop judging yourself and, and certainly don't, you know, look at other people and think, oh, they did this, they did that. Oh, I've let myself down. No, you didn't. You got through it. Yeah, but let's just remember that no matter whether somebody has put on weight or has lost weight or looks better or looks worse, we have no idea what is going on in that person's life. They might be thinner because they're stressed. They might be, they might have put on weight because they've finally been able to actually cook and nourish themselves in different ways and spend time with family. You just, we've got to stop judging people and judging ourselves less because we never know what somebody else is actually going through. And also, I will, I will street fight anyone, you know, to prove my ethics. Who says that being bigger isn't— can't look wonderful and be attractive. You know, this is the kind of predisposition to think that you have to be a certain size to look and feel glorious. And also, you know, the predisposition to tell fat people that they are unhealthy when, you know, skinny people are walking around, you know, some of them smoking 20 cigarettes a day, or, you know, doing drugs, whatever, you know, the way that we try and police overweight people's bodies, it's got nothing to do with you. They can absolutely— I mean, look at Lizzo, she's just, you know, she's like, oh yes, stunning, my heroine, like, absolutely, she's just glorious, and she's, she's beautiful, and she knows that she's beautiful, and she won't let anybody tell her that she's not. And, and I mean, I'm sure it must come with doubt sometimes because the, you know, the the kind of pervasive nature of society telling women that carry weight that they're wrong is, is, you know, it can be overwhelming. But, but people like, like Lizzo, like these kind of bastions of confidence and just, I am, I am glorious and I know that I am. And I feel like that's the other thing, like, you know, you might have put a bit of weight on, you might look better for it. Like, stop and think for a second, you know, and you might not be unhealthy. Take your blood pressure. Is it okay? You might be alright, you know, just don't, don't immediately rush as women to assume that a bit of weight is wrong because I just, I don't agree. Well, also, and if you're a little bit happier as well, then it shines through like sunbeams. Like, I was speaking to a friend of mine about this and, and I was like, well, I've put on some weight, but actually I quite like it because I'm eating the food, I'm not stressing about it so much, and, and it kind of shines through. However, there was a very silly situation the other day where I was about to go out for a Sunday roast, I'd been running around, I'd just gone for a run with the dog, and I went to put on my jeans and I was like, "Whoa, I want a dessert and now I can't even get my jeans up!" And I was like, "This is ridiculous!" But then I realised I was putting on my 13-year-old boy's jeans and I was like, "Oh my God!" Well, thank goodness they didn't fit! I was like, "Well, that serves you right for not even concentrating on what you're doing!" And you were like, "Yes, I'll have the sticky toffee pudding, thanks very much!" Yes, I will! And I did! I mean, that's very kind of a strong female mentality, which is exactly what Milkshakes for the Almost Dead kind of embodies, don't you think? I hope so. I hope so. That, you know, I certainly, as a— when I wrote it, I was writing it for— I kind of had my niece in mind, who's a— both my nieces, really, that both kind of— one's a teenager and one's nearly a teenager. And I was really thinking back to the lack of confidence that I had as a 16-year-old, and partly because I was a bit overweight. And it felt— obviously there was no web then, there was nowhere to go and look and find these positive role models. There was no Social. Like, the only overweight woman you could see on the TV was Bella Emburgh on The Russ Dawson Show, you know, like, and fat women were always the butt of every joke. And I think I was, you know, I was clever, I lived in Essex, and there was a, you know, all the girls around me, most the girls around me, like, you know, there's a lot of polish that goes on in Essex. It's, you know, it's, it's, people are beautifully kind of turned out, and, you know, their nails are immaculate, their eyebrows are immaculate, and And I did all that, you know, like my, you know, my hair was, was blow-dried to within an inch of perfection. But, um, but I wasn't confident about myself, and I didn't, um, as most— not most, many, many teenage girls, you know. And I've talked about this, my, my anxiety about, um, the kind of teenage girl experience and how many how easily influenced they can be, and how they all of a sudden, you know, their bodies change and they become sexualized by society, whether they feel comfortable and ready for that or not. And there's so much going on, you know, so much judgment that's ingrained in us and their mothers, their mothers' mothers, that we pass on without ever kind of thinking about it and pulling apart. You know, judgment about weight, judgment about behavior, you know, sexual behavior. And, and there's so much anxiety, and it's such an emotional roller coaster for teenage girls. And I, I worried for my— I worry for my nieces, I worry for my daughter. I, I, I, I think that the web is amazing in so many ways, the internet's amazing, but also kind of whispered influence from so many sectors. You know, you see these kind of starvation websites, and you know, there's all these different ways that we can get into teenage girls' heads. And I thought I'd write a book. You know, for what it's worth, this is what I do. I write. So I thought, well, I'll write a book that maybe, you know, speaks to girls supporting other girls and Showing them that, you know, the most important relationships are those, you know, physical relationships, like the relationships that you have with your friends and, you know, the people that you're close to in your life, and how positive and life-defining it can be to support, to genuinely support each other and not drag each other down. And to also, you know, I kind of peppered milkshakes with not just, not just a character who, you know, Diana the protagonist finds Gloria, this new best friend, and, you know, Gloria's been through a lot, and, you know, she's encountered— she lives in a kind of little beach town that is, you know, busy in the summer and kind of desolate in the winter, and she's a Black girl in a predominantly white town, and her parents have left, and she lives with her grandmother, and she cares for her grandmother, and she's been through a lot. But she— I don't want to kind of have that trope of, you know, you know, Black women are strong women. But what I think really comes out with Gloria is that she knows herself, and that she's kind of somehow managed, even at 17— Gloria's 17, Diana's 16— to kind of know herself. And I think that if you can be around people that find people like that who, who do, who are authentically themselves. That's very hard to be as a teenage girl. But also, you know, these older women like Aunt Veta, everybody, everybody loves Aunt Veta. And I love that because I thought I wrote a very complicated, you know, some like, you know, she's a flag-waving feminist, but, you know, oh yeah, sometimes it's aggressive, you know, sometimes it's— and as it can be, you know, sometimes I get aggressive about my feminist opinions, and I thought that she'd be a lot more divisive than she is, but everybody, like all the older women that have read the book, are like, "Oh my gosh, I want to be Aunt Veta!" And I'm like, "I want to be Aunt Veta!" And I loved that. So yeah, strong women, strong girls, honest, just honest. Unapologetically so, like I said in the intro, because that's what I like, because You know, Diana came along, you know, no confidence whatsoever. Then all of a sudden, you know, the confidence of Gloria kind of, it was infectious. Yeah. And she kind of saw, the more you hang out with people, the right people, it does wear off on you. And, you know, this is why if you're hanging out with the wrong people, you're never going to be your true self, or you're not going to be comfortable or mentally well either. Absolutely, that positive, the positivity of someone seeing you and saying everything you are is perfectly you, you know. And there's a bit in the book, and I know that you liked it because you talked to me about it, but there's a bit in the book where Aunt Veta kind of, and Diana, you know, bonding, and they find it hard, you know. Aunt Veta's never been a mother and And Diana's never had a mother, and, you know, her mother disappeared, committed suicide when she was young. And they find it very hard to come together, but there's a point where kind of Aunt Vita says to her, "You have to love yourself. You have to. You know, you have to know that you are you." and that's all you can be, and you have to love yourself. And that's the thing that I kind of wanted to— that's, that's the thing that I want to say to my daughter and to my nieces and to all the teenage girls out there. Like, whatever you are, you have to love yourself, because, because other people will often prey on negativity, or their insecurities will rear up, and, and they'll use it to kind of fuel themselves. You have to love yourself and find other people that love you for that, for the person that you are. Do you know what, I mean, when I read that section, that was when I kind of had to just stop reading for a bit and just absorb it, because it's, you know, when you read something, you just go, I can't just keep on reading now, I need to absorb that and make sure I remember it. You know, I've got pictures of it on my Instagram left, right, and center, because it is important, you know. Yeah, and also, but it's someone You know, I don't think I never really had a mentor, you know, and I often, um, I never— yeah, I worked for a big company. I used to work for Universal Studios when I was young. It was kind of my first job, polygram into Universal, but I left there to work in, um, agency life, like, while I was writing at the same time. And I went to run a kind of, um, entertainment agency, creative entertainment agency. And sometimes when you work in big companies like the BBC or ITV or Sky or somewhere you get, you kind of get mentored, you know, you get people that, you know, work with you to find your strengths or to enable your potential. And in small businesses, that's very, you know, that can be hard. You know, I've always tried to do it with the people that work for me. I ended up running the agencies, and I always tried really hard to do that, but I never really had a mentor, and I think having someone genuinely on your side and looking out for you, whether it's at work, whether it's in life, is an amazing comfort and kind of emotional cushion. And we should all, you know, we should all be that lucky. I kind of wrote a speech I wish I'd heard you know, when I was 16. And but then you wonder, you know, how much I didn't hear when I was 16. I don't know. Well, that is the thing actually, because you sometimes, sometimes I kind of reflect and I go, oh no, actually my mum probably did tell me this, that, and whatever. But I do kind of live my life as if, and it sounds like you do too, and you write on this basis as well, be the person you needed when you were younger. Yeah, yeah. And I think, and if you can find that in stories, You know, and I think, um, if you can— some books, some books change you. And there are some books that you remember, like I always— I know it's ridiculous, but it's not ridiculous, but Gillie Cooper, Rivals. That book changed me. It did. You know, it kind of, it kind of opened my eyes up to a kind of slightly more glamorous, you know, set. And also it was about entertainment. It was the book that made me want to get into entertainment, and I thought that seemed ever so exciting. There are certain books that you remember that change you a bit, and while Milkshakes is a thriller, and you don't— you never want the messaging to get in the way of the story because then it all falls apart. Because if you— if people feel like they're being taught or kind of lectured, that's, you know, they're just going to throw the book over across the room.. But at the same time, there are things that I believe, and obviously the most powerful one is, you know, I believe in feminism. I believe in other women and the power they can have on your life. And I wanted, I really wanted that to come across. And I, and if, you know, if some of the, I've been getting some, very fortunate, I've been getting some lovely reviews. And when, and I love it when people love the story, don't get me wrong. And everyone kind of talks about the fact that it's a page-turner and that You know, some of the chapters— people keep going on about that because some of the chapters are deliberately short, like, you know, like, yeah, half a page short. And people are like, I'm totally on board with this, this, you know, this— I can fly through this book because, because it, you know, it makes you want to keep reading because you can, you can kind of look at it and go, I'll do one more chapter, I'll do one more chapter. People are worried that they don't have time to read sometimes, and when they, when they're faced with a 30-page chapter, they, they straight away, they just can't even imagine starting it, but when they know it's shorter and they can stop and start quite easily, before you know it you've read for 2 hours and you don't really realize how you managed to get that time. Well, exactly, and it can be— I maintain this, that a book is a commitment and it can be overwhelming. And, you know, also if you don't read fiction, and lots of people do but lots of people don't, and lots of young people don't, they, you know, they look at what's in front of them, which is, you know, Instagram or TikTok, or, you know, there's— they're consuming the content in different ways. And buying a book can feel really, you know, it's, it's money. So, you know, it's, it's, you know, £5 or £8 or however you— however much you, you know, whether you buy on your Kindle or paperback or whatever. But also it can seem like a real commitment. So I think I deliberately, um, very deliberately tried to write these kind of short, sharp snappy chapters that kind of mirrored the way that we're moving, you know, that we are. Yes, yeah, yeah, this is, this is how we can— the world is noisy, our lives are busy, this is how we consume our writing these days. You can fight it or you can say maybe there are positives to it. So, um, yeah, so, so you don't— I guess that was the thing, like, I don't want the I don't want the messages to get in the way of the readability of it, or the fun, or the horror, or the thriller factor. But if someone walks away with a message about feminism and understanding what other women go through and supporting each other, that, you know, makes my heart sing a bit. And if, you know, and if a mum picks up a book— I know lots of mums who have been buddy reading it with their teenage daughters. Which I've got a lot of mums who just want to read it anyway, mums who've even got boys. Amazing. That's brilliant. And actually, a good friend of mine, she buddy read it with her teenage son. Oh wow. Who's 14. Yeah, and actually we went for a walk. It was very funny because we went for a walk and he had very strong opinions about it, like very strong opinions about it. He clearly identified with one of the male characters. Which one? Um, Richard. And he was very, um, and he sees, um, things, uh, my friend's son is very black and white, and he was like, you know, Diana shouldn't have done this, so-and-so shouldn't have done this, like he was really impassioned about it. And then he and my friend, like his mum, started like discussing it in front of me, and I, and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm loving it, like I'm witnessing it. And then, but they were getting quite angry about it, like they were angry, angry about you know, the kind of justifications by about like what some of the characters did. And the fact that, you know, and I love that a mother and child, you know, a teenage child could buddy read it. And actually, and my friend Alice said to me, we're going to do this again. We're going to find another book now and we're going to do this again because we've really found something that we can like. It is giving them something new to talk about. And I Oh, I loved it. Well, you've got the next one coming out relatively soon, haven't you? Well, yeah, in the new year. Yeah, in the spring. Oh, it'll fly by though. Well, I hope. Yeah, well, it's not yet because it's not finished yet. So choppy chop chop. Yeah, yeah, so hopefully, yeah, not too, not too quick. But yeah, that's— it's the responsibility. That's the other thing, like, I've never written a series before. Like, all my, my previous books that were the HarperCollins books were all, um, standalones. And, um, so I've never written a series. And, and the thing about Milkshakes is, because it does end on a cliffhanger— I'm not giving anything away because everybody that writes a review says, oh my gosh, it ends on a cliffhanger, I need to know what happens next— but then you start to feel a sense of pressure and you're like, oh no. Like, I know people are going to read it, whereas, you know, and I know that people are invested in those characters now And this is, again, rubbish. Well, yeah, if you'd written a rubbish book, people wouldn't be that bothered about that. Well, I know, I know. There wouldn't be such high expectations. Well, yeah, hopefully. But yeah, I said to my friend, oh, you know, it's quite a responsibility, especially when you kill a character off. And I was talking to her about it and she was like, you can't, who are you, you can't, which one, you can't. I was like, well, I'm not going to tell you who. No, find the book. And she was like, 'But it can't be this one, and it can't be this one. You can't kill Vita. Don't tell me you're not killing Vita.' I was like, 'All right, calm down.' But the story is the story, you know, it's plotted out. And, you know, writing is organic, as you know, anyone that writes understands that you sometimes you have to let it go where it goes. But also there's a structure there. It's a trilogy, and I have a structure to it. And so, yeah, again, she was getting quite angry with me about it. I was like, oh well, we'll see. Do you know what, the actual section that we were talking about, I've got it up on my iPad at the moment, and I do think it's important enough to kind of give people the vibe, give our listeners a vibe of the kind of themes that are running through this book. Now this is, I'm just going to read it out, so this is the bit, this is written, this is the part with Diana and she goes, nobody wants me. I'm too weird or too much or something or nothing. I'm unlovable. My mom literally chose to die rather than stay with me. My dad has gone to prison rather than be with me. And then her Aunt Vita turns around and says, no, Diana, you are loved and you're exactly the right amount. Don't dilute yourself, Diana, for anyone. Don't pretend to be anything other than yourself to please someone else. If they don't get you, so what? Someone else will. If they don't understand why you care about something, go and talk to somebody else who does. If you— if your passion makes them feel uncomfortable, who cares? You will inspire someone else. You must never pretend to be different, Diana, to make somebody else feel different. You are you, and that is all you should be, and you have to love you. I love that bit. I mean, this book is absolutely full of some great quotes, some great lines, some by you, some, some that you've actually brought in through, uh, some incredible writers out there. Do you have a favourite quote in the book? From me or from somebody else? It can be either you or one of the ones that Annalisa has left out for her. Well, I love, do you know, my, the, obviously the quote that kind of drives the book is the Madeleine Albright quote, which is, "There's a special place in hell for women who don't support other women." And which has always spoken to me. And, you know, it's not regardless, it's not— you don't support toxic behaviour, but just that kind of instinctive need some women have, or have been taught, to please men rather than support women. And so that quote really speaks to me. And it's a quote that Aunt Vita, while she's not in Diana's life to begin with, she does send her these kind of random, kind of rambly postcards and letters sometimes, and she often puts a quote in. And she puts this quote in, and it's the first one that really Diana responds to. And normally, you know, she kind of just rolls her eyes at them, And, but she reads this quote and she's being bullied at school, and she reads this quote and she memorizes it, and she, you know, plucks up some courage and, you know, when these school bullies, these two girls are bullying her, to kind of repeat it back to them. And, you know, they kind of laugh it off and laugh at her as they do, but she feels more powerful because of it. And I love it, but what I love most about it is that she then chooses to use it again in a different context with Gloria, and it shows you a whole different side to— you can applaud it in one sense, and I think when she says it to Virginia and Audrey, the bullies, you're there kind of going, yeah, go on, go on girl, you tell them, you know, like that they shouldn't be behaving like this. But then a little bit further in, she kind of tries to weaponize this quote against Gloria, and Gloria kind of says to her, quite rightly, you know, "Are you supporting me?" And that's such a— and I think in terms of, you know, white feminism and intersectionality and like just in terms of us as women, you know, you've got the Sheryl Sandbergs of this world, you know, saying lean in, and those are— and I agree completely, but those are boardroom problems, and a lot of people aren't anywhere near boardroom problems. They are just, you know, they're working 3 jobs and just trying to survive and feed their kids, and, you know, understanding the experience of other women and just the experience of other people, to be fair, and not— and you can understand why your life can be tougher sometimes and, you know, Diana is being bullied, that is awful, and, you know, she lives in a one-parent family because her mum committed suicide, that's really challenging and tough. It shouldn't stop you seeing the problems of other people and having empathy for those, for those, for other people. And that's really, really important to me. So I think that quote, that quote drives, drives the book for me. And it's a reminder that we should constantly challenge our perceptions as well, because, you know, I'm on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. I don't particularly do much on Facebook, and I quite often see I see a lot of women kind of regurgitating these, you know, feminism, well, feminist positive kind of quotes. And I know for a fact, you know, that they don't even analyse it or even know what it means, and they behave atrociously, you know, not on Facebook. You know, they're the kind of scared people that, you know, they don't want to be necessarily, they don't want to stand up and be heard. And we actually have to understand, you know, what is being said behind the things that we're actually dishing out there. Yeah. So that's what I really liked about Gloria, because she's like, yeah, this is such a great thing to say. And she's like, do you actually know what you're saying? Do you actually understand it? It's great in certain circumstances, but just be a bit mindful of what you're a part of. That's so interesting. I was literally thinking that the other day. Somebody, it was a youngish woman, a kind of late teens, early 20s woman on Instagram had posted a video, and she's a self-proclaimed feminist, and I was like, brilliant, very supportive. And she said something that I thought was pretty controversial, and I won't go into it, but 'And I thought, you know, I hope—' She said it so adamantly, and I thought, 'I wonder—' Sometimes it's hard to find the space to challenge those things, but I love that young girls and women are embracing feminism. I applaud it and I love it. I hope they take the time to genuinely understand it.. And to read back about, you know, whatever wave are we in? What are we, fourth wave feminism now? I don't know, but you know, I've lost track of the waves. But understand what first wave feminism was, understand what second wave, you know, read your Andrea Dworkin, read your Gloria Steinem, like read what's gone before. And I, you know, and that's no, that's absolutely no disrespect to youth, because I think that, you know, our lives and our societies depend on them, and I think they have a, you know, the youth of today have a drive and a will and a guile that is gonna, you know, hopefully change the world, and I applaud it, and we are relying on them to do it. But at the same time, do take the time, if you're going to say that you're a feminist, to understand what's come before, I think. Or don't just do it purely for— to be a sycophant and for clickbait. Well, yeah, definitely don't do it to post a selfie, you know. I'm, you know, I'm taking part in this Empowered Women Challenge, you know, here's my photo and I nominate these people. It's like, oh, okay, well, you get to do— I understand that, but But maybe, yeah, maybe as you say, like, maybe think about that before you, the next time you find yourself starting to be, you know, part of a bitch session, and like, you know, just catch yourself, watch yourself. But you know, you know, like, we've spoken about this, that interrogating your own feelings, actually picking apart your learned behavior, like that bit where we have to this is so important to me— women are not responsible for male behaviors and actions, but we all treat them like they are. You know, you know, if, if a man is ogling a young girl on a bus because she's wearing a short skirt, inherently we have been— we have learned to in some way apportion the blame to the girl because she's wearing a short skirt. And, and we— and unpicking that acknowledging it, unpicking it, retraining your brain is so hard. Oh, please tell me that you are— you have on your list Lennon Doyle's Untamed. Oh, oh my gosh, so much. Like, honestly, I, I, I think exactly what you're talking about. I follow her. Does she write— does she— is it in Untamed? Because I haven't read it yet. Is that— does she talk about that? But yeah, Untamed is basically about unlearning what we have thought we needed to be. Oh, she— I follow her on Instagram, her and her wonderful wife, um, the soccer star, and I think she's glorious. And, and I need— I have put it— I think I'm going to put it on my birthday list because it's on my list of to-be-read, um, but I honestly, my to-be-read list is, is, you know, 12 books deep at the moment. So I keep coming back to— I keep thinking, oh my gosh, I need to read it, it's going to make me cry, and she's going to be amazing. But again, it's hard. Any kind of change is hard, you know, whether it's, whether it's physical change, whether, you know, whether it's fitness change, whether it's emotional change, mental change, anything like that. And not just kind of rolling along with the status quo is hard. So you have to really understand that it's important and you have to really want to do it because it's actually just a lot easier to sit in your, sit in, you know, the comfort zone. The mess you're in and just kind of keep going with it because you're not, you know, you're not dying. So, so why, you know, why pick it apart other than if you look at the harm that we do to each other, the emotional harm that we do to each other? Well, this is why, um, I, I found, I find this book actually, although it's thoroughly entertaining, I find it quite important for everybody to read because with every book you learn something. And even in comedies and whatnot, there's always something, there's an underlying theme. But there's the idea of, you know, Milkshakes for the Almost Dead, the perceived mental illnesses and prejudices, which are core themes. I think it's important to highlight this and for people to suddenly go, oh, wait a minute, yeah, okay, was he actually mentally ill? Was she ignoring this? Was she doing this? Was she pitying herself? Was she kind of causing her own problems. And it's books like this where it challenges our perceptions of other people and why they are the way they are. Well, I think that's so important, that on the things that you think you know, at the point at which you realize you might be wrong, having been brave enough to say, I might be wrong, 'Let me have a think about it.' Like, being brave enough to have discussions, um, with people who challenge what you think. You know, like, this, this, there's a, this whole kind of theme of, of cancel culture at the moment, and, you know, people so adamantly stating things without any kind of recourse or need for discussion or context or nuance. Like, that's where You know, the best of us lives in the ability to be able to talk things out with each other and to understand that sometimes you're wrong. And there's nothing wrong in being wrong if you take it on board and at least, you know, have a little think. Have a little think about why you thought something like that. And I think a lot of people are scared of saying that they thought something and then changing their minds because it's at school, you know, if you put your hand up and you got something wrong, it was quite humiliating. You know, it was quite— you felt very visible. And it can be quite visible to have stated something, whether even if it's to friends or to a partner, or even it's just sitting in your own beliefs, and then to realize that actually you don't think that anymore, you think something else. There's so much to be respected and so much bravery in people that are able to change their minds when they're confronted with new knowledge, or new opinions, or stances. And I think that if we can all be brave enough to be intellectually curious, and sometimes I know it, again, it can hurt your head, like concepts, like gosh, I mean, look at Brexit, like it's too big a concept, it's a massive concept, you know, it's so huge, how could any of us be expected to understand it and the ramifications of it. And I understand that by the point at which, you know, if you've made a decision on something like that, that you, you know, whichever way you went, the point at which you made decision, it can feel like a relief. You're like, oh, I know where I stand, you know, right, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna vote Leave, I'm gonna vote Remain, whatever, I know where I stand. And then new information comes out and you the point at which you kind of think, oh, hang on, do I need to think about that now? Well, it's exhausting. It's exhausting. And sometimes, you know, I think we make snap decisions on the basis of, you know, less mental power being having to be used. But, you know, there's, you know, know where it's important. Well, life is hard enough, you know, like, you know, just getting through the day. Is hard enough for so many people, having to think about the intricacies of, you know, European fishing laws is a whole other load of stuff that frankly, if you don't live in Grimsby, like if it doesn't affect your life, why? There's no massive imperative to think about that. So easy answers, and my husband says something a lot which is, you know, simple lies are complicated truths. And, you know, it's so much easier to believe a simple lie because— I love that. Yeah, I know, well, he's very clever. And, you know— But has he got a brother? Sorry? No, he hasn't. He's got a lot of friends. But he— it sums it up so well, and people talk about this, that, you know, whatever the slogan is that you put on the side of a bus, It's, it's a slogan, and but it is, you know, whatever it says. Again, I don't, you know, your politics, your politics, and I'm not on here to influence those, but whatever it says, there's going to be a simplicity to it because you can't put the complicated truth on the side of a bus. I'm a marketeer, I understand it's not snappy. It's not snappy to say, hold on, the context is this and the nuance is this and this happened, this and, and it's and it's not powerful. Simple lies are powerful and easy, and they don't tax you. They help make your decision easier. And that's— those are the headlines in our newspapers. Those are the slogans. Those are the adverts. Those are the speeches. Those are the tweets. Those are the soundbites. It's on you if you want to have an intelligent opinion about something do the legwork. If you don't necessarily want to have an informed opinion on it, that's totally cool as well. Like, you get to do you. Yeah, but don't pretend. Yeah, don't dress it up. Just say, this is the time I had to give to this, and this is what I believed, and so be it. But if you can have the intellectual curiosity to go, hang on, something else has come along, and maybe I'll think about that. And also definitely not to shut down debate. Like, you know, not, you know, that was McCarthyism and, you know, it was, it was terrible. Don't shut down debate, have the debate, enjoy the debate. Is, is, that's what I think anyway. I'm going all Aunt Veta, I'm going aggressive. Yeah, bring it on. Take it down a notch. I'd say, I'd say what inspires you, but I think I know exactly what inspires you. You don't Do you know, genuinely, what does— I love some people. This speaks to that passage from Aunt Veta as well, because I know that I am too much for some people, you know. People, some people just don't want to think about things to the— in the depth that I do, and they, they like— and I'm talking about kind of issues, and that doesn't make me right and them wrong in any way, or— and it also by the same, you know, token doesn't make them right and me wrong. It just means that I care passionately about some things, and I've seen it in friends of mine, you know, I can start to talk about something I care really passionately about, and they're great friends of mine, but their eyes glaze over, and then you can see them thinking, "Here she goes, off she goes again," and you know that you can You know, I know of myself that I can be too much for some people, and I think understanding that and not, you know, not taking on board the kind of— if you see kind of critical looks or bored looks, not taking that on board and, you know, and thinking, oh, I'm boring, or I'm 'You know, this isn't important,' or, or, 'I should just be, you know, I just want to have a laugh, just want to do another shot,' you know, 'I should just have fun.' There's absolutely have fun, do another shot, like, but that doesn't make one of us right or wrong, it just makes us different, you know. And I think, um, that's the, that's, that, that was part of my writing that speech, you know. If you care about stuff, if you are passionate about stuff, that that isn't, that doesn't make you wrong. It just means, and if you're looking at someone who's just not getting it, that doesn't make them right and it doesn't make you boring. Just go and find somebody else who does, you know. And that's a lesson to me as well, really. The world would be a very dull place if we were all the same though. Well, yeah, I mean, that's the, you know, although vanilla is my favourite ice cream flavour, so I don't know what that says about me. It depends if it's really good quality, you know, you can actually see the vanilla bean in it. Then I'm all over it. I think it's brilliant. You can't beat it. But other than that, you know, maybe that's— I— maybe I'm going to call myself high, high quality vanilla. I love that. I never thought about that before. There we go. That's a, that's a, that's a new category for me. I'm taking it. I'm taking it. It's mine. Yeah. We were also just talking about, um, the price of books books as well. And I've just seen that your book has been reduced. Has it? Has it? That's good news. That means it's selling. Yeah. Is that on Amazon? Yeah. So it's supposed to be £8.99. It's, uh, it's on at the moment. Yeah, for £2.99. No, it's not. Are you sure that's not the Kindle? You sure that's not the Kindle? Oh, maybe the Kindle price. Yeah, that's the Kindle price. That's still cheap enough for people, you know. There are easier ways to get hold of it. Yeah, I mean, it does. And also the paperback does go into, um, it does go into promotions. It kind of comes and goes into promotions, and often when it's— if it's just had a spike of sales. Ironically, this is, um, the thing that I remember when my first books came out and they were with HarperCollins. So, um, you know, the power of HarperCollins, and you'd be in all the big bookshops and you'd be on these 3-for-2 tables um, at the front of the store. And people, like, friends would say to me, oh, like, my book would, like, let's say The Perfect 10, which was the book about weight loss, and that would have just come out. And, um, someone would say to me, oh, I'm so sorry, I saw your book in— it was on the 3 for 2 table. And I was like, genuinely, you have to pay money to get it on that table? Like, not only— yeah, not only does it have to be selected by, you know, the Waterstones, it has to be submitted by you know, for, for, um, to be considered by your publisher, and then it has to be selected by the retailer, and then you have to pay money to have it there. It's genuinely— being part of a 3 for 2 is on one of those book tables is, is, you know, a godsend. So it is. I mean, obviously, if it was down for 2 for a quid in Poundland or another similar— yeah, not, not so Yeah, yeah. But the point is, I mean, the thing is, some people love hardbacks, some people don't care whether it's Kindle or whatever, but when there's a, when there's a little bit of a discount, it does make it a little bit easier as well, doesn't it? Well, absolutely. And some people really enjoy reading like digitally, like really enjoy reading on their Kindles and their phones, and some people, and I am one of them, prefer, still prefer a physical copy. And I, the one thing I would say is that, um, my you hinted at it before, which is the COVID My book is, it's a big book, and I deliberately chose to kind of put it in this kind of, um, chunky— yeah, I think they call it in publishing, I'm not sure, someone will probably correct me, but I think they call it a like trade paperback, like it's a bit bigger than a standard paperback. Um, I think I might have used the wrong word, but anyway, and so it's a bit bigger. And also the COVID the COVID is so important to me, and, um, and it was, uh designed, I worked with an amazing designer called Gem Milton, who's an illustrator, and they designed, like, created and illustrated this most, the most beautiful cover, and people are really responding to it. So I think if you, if you like the look of books, then I would, I would say if you can afford afford the paperback, then please, please, you know, please do splash out. But it is, you know, it's £8.99 on Amazon, unless— but again, it's quite an easy price as well. It's not ridiculous. It's not up there with the £22. And like, the thing is with this book is that it got so many people coming up to me and asking me about the book because it is eye-catching. Ah, well, I So many people, I mean, look, I used to work in, in, um, and still do, you know, as a consultant in entertainment advertising. So you would hope that I, I know what I'm doing. Um, you know, but mostly what I did was film and TV and music. So I used to make, you know, film trailers, still do make film trailers and, um, and camp TV campaigns and, um, and print. When I was at Universal, I used to print, you know, I used to help design, um, DVD sleeves and things like that. So hopefully I know what I'm doing. So hopefully I know— I knew what I was doing with the COVID and people are really responding to it. So that's, that's lovely. So do, do look at it, do go and find it if you can. It is, it's everywhere. And now we'll put up some links as well up on social media. Now we've got like less than a minute and a half left because we've just completely sped through the last hour, and I normally ask for 3 tips on wellbeing, but can you give 3 tips on wellbeing in under a minute? Um, get outside and enjoy the seasons. So, so feel the weather on your face is my first one. And try and get a good night's sleep is the second one, because if you can, that's so important. It makes you feel different the next day. And the third one is seek out stories whether they're films or TVs or book— TV or books. Seek out things that inspire you and, and fulfill your need for positivity and happiness. Those are my 3 tips. Wow, you nailed that in under a minute! Thanks very much. Moving at speed. That's, um, that's entertainment for you. That's, that's what we're used to. Like, go, go, go, go, go! It's like you were practiced and everything. Brilliant. Uh, do you know what? I really love chatting to you. It feels like it's only been about 10 minutes and we've completely— I mean, I think from this our listeners can completely understand what the book is about, and they should go out and get Milkshakes for the Almost Dead. Get it read before the next one comes out in the new year. Oh, thank you so much. It's always an absolute joy talking to you, love. Thank you. Oh, I love talking to you too. I feel empowered now. I'm gonna go and run up and down the streets going, 'Rawr!' Come on! Women are taking over. We are so taking over. Thank you so much, and I look forward to having you back on the show when you release the next one. Thanks, thanks so much, Hazel.