Get Booked – Nikki Smith, Look What You Made Me Do 310521

You are listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week. We're gonna find out a little bit more about who they are, what they do, and what inspires inspires them. On today's show, we, we have Nikki Smith, the author of Look What You Made Me Do. And what this book explores is the complexities of abusive relationships and the coercive nature that can destroy all surrounding relationships, a process that is calculated, devious, alarmingly subtle, and preys on the shock embarrassment factor. A powerful reminder that you very rarely know what is going on in somebody else's life, how our past can distort our future or our perception of it, how lonely you can be even when being surrounded by family. This book is an addictive, very clever, and scarily realistic fiction book on abuse, family politics, and how keeping secrets is toxic. The reviews for this book are incredible for a very good reason. Nikki, hi! Hello Hazel, hi. So, read it, loved it, you must be so happy with all the reviews. I am really delighted, yes, I'm actually going to hire you I think Hazel and keep you in my pocket and bring you out to kind of repeat that little intro at various different points when I get asked to talk about the book, that was wonderful, thank you very much. I'll send over a blurb. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Well, do you know what, I can't wait to get stuck into, um, the complexities of, um, a coercive abusive relationship, but let's start by just telling our listeners a little bit about yourself. Well, um, yeah, my name is Nikki Smith. I am 48 years old, um, so I'm not, um, sadly one of these very young debut authors. Um, I, I came to this a bit later in life after having a completely different career. And I live in Surrey with my husband and two daughters, one of whom's a teenager and is just doing GCSEs at the moment. So I'm sure all those other parents who've got a Year 11 or Year 13 daughter or son can sympathise. It's a bit of a stressful time. It is, isn't it? Especially as they're— we kind of teach our kids for about 4 or 5 years in the, in the whole high school setting about GCSEs, and then all of a sudden they've gone, by the way, everything you thought was going to happen— actually, do you know what, pretty much for the last 10 years— we're going to do it differently. Go! Absolutely, absolutely, yes, it's been a nightmare for them this year, I think. So yeah, she's just sitting kind of as everybody is, multiple assessments, and then we'll just have to see what we come out with in August. So yeah, fun times. Yeah, well, best of luck to you and your daughter. It will be fine. I think everyone's, you know, you've just got to think positively and hopefully it's going to teach our children to be a little bit more adaptive and resilient. Somebody said— That's true. Yeah, somebody said something to me actually. I was speaking to a therapist, I think it was actually for this show, and I said, oh, I'm very worried about, you know, confusing nature for children and how they're possibly being kept back because they haven't been able to do many of the things that they're supposed to do when they're 14, 15, and 16. And the lady turned around and said, yes, but what they're learning in terms of how to adapt and just get on when things, you know, when a curveball is thrown at them, they're excelling at that. And both of these things are— all the many elements will somewhere meet in the middle. So, you know, what's taken away with one hand is given, you know, given with the other hand. That's true. Yeah, I thought that was lovely what she said, actually. So anyway, as we were, as we were, so 'Look What You Made Me Do', coercive relationships. How did you go about getting the research for this, or have you been in a coercive relationship? I haven't really, well, I've certainly never been in one like the one that's described in this book, and although I have had quite a few people asking me since the book came out, is my husband modeled on anybody in the book, which he's not. I have to say that very quickly. But I think when I was, certainly when I was younger and went out with kind of different people, I think there's certain aspects of one of the characters in my book, Caroline, there's aspects of her relationship that I can certainly identify with. And I think a lot of women that I spoke to have had this, sadly, to kind of some degree. Generally, mostly not as kind of horrific as my character endures, but certainly just, you know, maybe little kind of aspects of their relationship where, you know, somebody might kind of start telling you what to wear or telling you that, you know, there's certain friends that they'd rather you didn't see or you know, maybe distancing you from family members, that kind of thing. So yeah, I mean, I obviously spoke to people I know, but I did a lot of research online and kind of spoke to various people anonymously who were kind enough to talk to me about their situations and what they'd been in. And I think we often forget that, I think even in this country, 2 women are still killed every week by their partner, so this is you know, this is an incredibly serious issue that still needs to be addressed. Do you know what? I have been in a coercive relationship, and it was a long, long time ago. I mean, we're talking at least 17, 18 years ago. Yeah. And I didn't even— I just thought he was mad as a box of frogs and not a very nice person until I realized, actually, the extent. So when you're in it, it's— and as I said in my intro, it's so subtle. Yes. And there's, there's tiny little chipping bits of chipping away that you eventually get isolated. And, and what I've found, I've come across a few friends, or people have told me in the past about things that have happened to them, and the people who see through these narcissists or these abusers are generally the ones that the actual abusers tend to destroy first to try and get them out of the way because they're the strong ones that are a threat, which was obviously the situation in this as well, in this book. Um, and it's— they're threatened by people who can call them out. Absolutely. And I think, as you say as well, I think What people, you know, people often hear about the behaviour and they kind of think that, well, I'd never get myself into a situation like that. And obviously if somebody treated you like that from the very beginning when you met them, you wouldn't. But I think a lot of these people are far cleverer than that, and they can often shower you in, you know, affection and make you feel safe, and it feels like they completely adore you and you're their world. And then by the time the behaviour starts changing into something more, you know, threatening or disturbing, you're kind of in the middle of that relationship and it's often very, very difficult to get out. Yes, and it's that whole— they play on your guilt factor as well, because it's, 'I've done this for you, and what, you're going to leave me just because I said the wrong thing?' And it's kind of minimising their behaviour. I mean, it's very scary. Absolutely. And I think And what I talk about a lot on GetBooked is, yes, this is fiction, but there's— this is— these are perfect ways for people to kind of bizarrely be entertained, but understand the complexities and what to actually look out for. Because the majority, you know, if you've fallen out with somebody because they behave funny and they think that, you know, their partner's changing them and whatnot, it's probably quite intentional. And it's to kind of understand that you don't always know what's going on. Absolutely, yeah. And it's very scary. But what was the inspiration for this book then? Well, it was— it actually, it came from kind of a number of different places. I think the kind of the coercive control element was something that I'd always wanted to write about, and that's the kind of main theme that runs through the novel. I mean, I'd just read so many stories stories, horrendous stories of, you know, women in, you know, these kind of situations who find it really difficult to get out of them. I think particularly when children are involved as well, because often the person concerned can kind of control the finances and they can use children as a weapon so that the, you know, the woman feels like she can't leave a relationship. But also, it was, it was actually somebody I know who was telling me a story about a family who'd been impacted by the effects of a will and when somebody died and what happened to the rest of the family because the will had kind of left certain things to certain people and there were big disagreements about it and it all kind of went to legal cases and things. So I found that kind of totally fascinating as well, so kind of wanted to combine the two ideas. There's definitely a lot going on in this book. And yeah, I mean, when somebody— when a parent dies, the siblings— there quite often is, well, a lot of family politics, and especially when you're being pushed in many different directions. And it's— I like— I don't want to give away too much about the ending. Oh yeah. But it's a fantastic book. Just go and buy it. Oh, thank you. I mean, I think the whole idea of family drama is often not— I mean, I think when people talk about thrillers, you know, you often think of something, you know, car chases and, you know, and lots of different murders and that kind of thing. But I think, you know, even just kind of looking at the news in the last few months and seeing, you know, the whole royal family and the Harry and Meghan split, you realize that family dramas just have this massive impact on, you know, everybody that's involved and those who are close to them and the kind of wider ripples that end up spreading out from that. So, yeah, that's the kind of book that I like writing. And, yeah. Well, I think what's interesting about the whole Harry and Meghan element is there was so much of he said, she said, and somebody burst into tears and made them cry because somebody said they weren't allowed to wear so-and-so dress, which probably is 99% of the time are conversations that's going to happen at every single family wedding. But because it's the royal family, it's a bigger thing, and there's abuse and there's bullying and da da da da. But, you know, it's, it's hard enough when it's just, you know, in your back garden and at family gatherings, but the whole element of trying to be believed as to what's happened. And then I think that's pretty much why Meghan went on Oprah to kind of It's that kind of angst of being believed, and when you've got, you know, about a billion people who think they know your story. Absolutely, and really I think it's only the— obviously it's only the people that are actually there that kind of know what happened, but often even if you were there, your opinion, even afterwards, of what's happened might be completely different to somebody else's in that room, and it's kind of, you know, whose truth is is truth, really. It's, you know, a lot of it is down to, you know, what you think happened and how it made you feel. Well, that's the thing, it's the element of subjectivity, isn't it? Did you watch The Affair on Sky Atlantic? Yes, yes. And that's— and the thing is, it wasn't that they were lying, it's just you perceive events differently. And sometimes because, um, I don't know, somebody could have just had a throwaway comment, but if somebody else has received that comment multiple times from a particular person who meant it quite passive-aggressively, that's how you're going to receive it. And it can completely distort how you progress from here on in. And absolutely so scary, isn't it? Yes, yes, but fascinating as well. You know, it's the whole interaction of human relationships and kind of, you know, how we come across to each other and what we're thinking compared to what the person that we're talking to thinks that we're, you know, saying. And, and, and yeah, I find it fascinating. Well, it's that whole element of— I mean, I've written about overthinking a lot on my blog because I think it's just— we do overthink. I know, and I read a book the other day that said you need to start underthinking. Yes, yes. Well, I think particularly if you're a very empathic kind of person, I think that you can— I think that is a real— yeah, it is a real danger, isn't it, to overthink things because you, you know, you want— you feel what everybody— you you feel a lot, I think, and you're worried what other people, not necessarily think of you, but just, you know, you don't want to offend people and you kind of feel their feelings. And so you end up overthinking everything. So yeah, maybe that's a good idea. Yeah, underthinking. Yeah, underthinking. Let's do it. And I probably, because I've been told I've got a terrible sense of humour and I know I have. My sense of humour kind of sways in between 'Did she really say that?' and 'How to ruin a dinner party.' But if she did say that, some people will be sitting at the table going, "That's hilarious," and others will just go, "I don't know if I get it." So I can get in trouble with my sense of humor, but I am an empath, and so half the time I'm just constantly worrying. Yes, yes, absolutely, yeah. And I think a lot of authors are like that. I think that you kind of, you need to be like that really if you're going to, you know, get inside the heads of your characters. So, yes, I think we do worry a lot about— we just worry, basically. I think we just worry, yeah, worry about, you know, what people kind of think of us. And because you've really got to get inside your character's skin and empathize with them and feel what they feel. And to be able to do that, I think that that makes you just generally feel a lot of things in life. Yeah. Well, I think your capacity to overworry things has really helped you write. 'Look What You Made Me Do,' because it was one of those— especially for somebody who's either experienced that kind of relationship, but, or had friends who have, I thought you absolutely nailed it. Oh, thank you, thank you. And it was, I mean, I was hoping it would veer towards a different direction, and I'm not even allowed to say whether it did go in that direction, but it was, it's so gripping. I I was that person walking down the street, kind of reading my book. And like, when I was— I've been doing football training and things like that, and at halftime, and just, I couldn't stop reading the book. And it was— do you know when you just need to get it? I mean, you are to blame for me having a rubbish night's sleep at one point. I really wanted to read it, but I'm really cautious about reading books like this as you go to bed because it kind of infiltrates creates your dreams, doesn't it? Yes, yes. But then I always think that I'm reading a really good book when it, when it does that. Yes, I've read a couple like that recently, and, um, and yeah, I, I love it. But you're right, yeah, you do, you go to sleep and then you're kind of, you're just thinking about it subconsciously, I think, which does make for a bit of a disturbed night's sleep. But it's good if something can get under your skin like that. Yes, yes. And the, uh, the choice of— I've got, I'm a 14 I have a 10-year-old son who likes to stay up a little bit later than me sometimes. So, you know, we've got a deal now that, you know, if mummy falls asleep reading a book, can you just pop in and quickly turn the light off? See, if he's gonna stay up all night chatting to his friends— not all night, I mean, I'm talking half past 10, 11— but, you know, make some use of him. Yes, I'm with you there, Hazel. My younger one, well, she's 13, nearly 14, and yeah, I think she goes to bed more often later than than I do. I'm kind of dead out of it by 10 and she'll still be awake. So yeah. Well, I don't know whether you have this at the moment, but like, definitely with my eldest. I mean, my youngest is sweet dimples, still thinks I'm great, you know, still needs me to put him to bed on a night. The other one's like, "Ugh." And when I really want an early night and at like 9 o'clock I put my youngest to bed and my eldest comes in and he's like, "Right, I found a horror movie for us to watch." And I'm thinking, and we love horror movies, but Yes, it's great. I mean, we watched Child's Play the other day, and I'm just like, it's that thing where you know that if your teenage child wants to spend time with you, you do it because you don't know when it's going to happen again. Yes, yes, I know. Yeah, that's very true. Yes, but he knows full well if he's willing to spend time with me, I'm like, yeah, yeah, fine, Instagram's off, I'll sit and watch horror with you while somebody lawn mows somebody's brain, but you know, this is what we do as mothers, isn't it? Yes, absolutely, yes. Maybe I should get him to read some of these books, and if he likes horror, I mean, I see I haven't read your other book, All in Her Head. Yeah. Now I kind of, I've read the blurb and I kind of think I'd absolutely love it, but that's a thriller as well, isn't it? It is, yes. It's another kind of psychological suspense kind of thriller. And yes, it's about two characters, Alison and her ex-husband Jack. And Alison is basically convinced that Jack is stalking her. And she's pretty sure she recognizes a woman who keeps approaching her at work called Sarah. And then suddenly the mention of one name turns her world completely upside down and it has a very large twist in it, so I can't really say any more than that, otherwise it'll give it away. But yeah, it's— yes, you'll have to have a read, Hazel, and let me know what you think. I will, because I love books like that as well, that just kind of challenge, like, yourself and other people's lives. But again, it's just with the whole mental health and abuse, it's kind of, it's especially in the last year or two, we're starting to just give it a bit more time and actually understand it a little bit more. And books that kind of make it less preachy. Yes, yes. That are a bit more encouraging to kind of help us understand. And I know I said, I used the word entertaining, but you know, that is sometimes the way that we need to be. Tour, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And I think without realising that, you know, necessarily that it's— yeah, you're right, it's not preaching, it's just— yeah, it's drawing people in and getting them to kind of sympathise with your characters and then get them to try and feel what they feel so they understand what it would be like to be in that situation. Well, it's humanising it, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So as You've recently released this book, but have you— and you've got a 2-book deal after submitting All in Her Head. Have you got more on the way? Well, hopefully, Hazel, yes, hopefully. I mean, I have to get another deal with Orion, but I've written my third one and my agent really likes it, so we're kind of in the process of— there's I've got to do a few tweaks to it, and then we'll submit it to Orion and my editor, and fingers crossed, yeah, fingers crossed they want another one. Are you allowed to tell us a little bit about it? Well, yes, well, at the moment, I mean, obviously it's got to go through a kind of heavy editing phase, no doubt, but it's basically about a group of women who come together after something tragic happens, and it's kind of how they react to each other and the events that have happened and what happens going forward. So female solidarity and having each other's back, that sort of theme? Yes, absolutely, and I think really an element of kind of grief and how people deal with grief and, yeah, and the kind of fallout from that. So— Wow, so you're really building up like your arsenal to kind of COVID up, cover all the different well-being factors, aren't you? Yes, that's not a conscious decision, it's just the kind of topics that I like writing, I like writing about kind of, yeah, serious topics and, yeah. And so, yes, so hopefully, hopefully I should hear something in the next kind of 2 or 3 months. And then, and the idea would be if I did get a third, then it will be out next year. That's very exciting. Keeps you out of trouble as well, doesn't it? It does indeed, yes, it does indeed. I like it how you said that you think you've come to writing later, but you'd be surprised. You're a spring chicken. I wish I felt like that, Hazel, in the mornings when I roll out of bed. Yeah, no, no, I mean, it was a real kind of now or never moment, I think, for me. I was kind of contacted by somebody completely out of the blue who I went to school with, kind of say it was like 25 years earlier. And she found me on Facebook and, you know, obviously said, how are you? And, you know, what have you been up to or whatever? And she said, you know, did you ever do anything with your writing? Because I still remember those stories you used to read out in class. And I just thought, you know, why not give it another go? So I wrote it because I wrote a novel shortly after I left university. And looking back, it was horrendous. It was awful. But And I kind of, because I didn't get a book deal out of that, I just thought it's not for me, the publishing industry isn't for me. I didn't know anyone in it, I wasn't involved in it, and I just thought it was something that you could either do or you couldn't do, and one book would kind of, or even the first attempt at a first book would tell you that. So I signed up for a creative writing course and there, I mean, there's loads of them out there, but the one I did was run by Curtis Brown and I loved it, absolutely loved it. And then I just did it online in the evenings after work. Oh, so you didn't have to go anywhere? No, you can't, I mean, they do, I mean, well, obviously not at the moment because it's COVID, but they do run ones where you can go into London and kind of go to their offices, which I would have absolutely loved to do, but I had a full-time job and I couldn't I couldn't do that, so I just did it in the evenings, which was completely possible, and it was just 6 weeks, and it's all kind of— they have systems set up online. You can log in and you kind of submit pieces of work, and you know, you kind of collaborate with other people, and you know, everybody kind of critiques each other's work, and you have a tutor who kind of looks at them. And yeah, I just thoroughly enjoyed the whole process. So I applied for a longer, a longer course, which was a kind of 3-month one. And that's more selective. So the kind of 6-weeks one anyone can do, but a 3-month one, they kind of, you have to submit a piece of writing. I think they get quite a few people that want to do it. So they choose people, and I was lucky enough to get a place. And that's when I wrote the first draft of All in Her Head. So I did it over those 3 months. And yeah, I was working at the same time. So it was, it was very difficult, but I used to get up really, really, really early and then work again in the evening. So, and then I finished the course and obviously carried on editing because I'd learned by then that unfortunately there's not lot of point in submitting your first draft to an agent because they're not going to accept it. And I then ended up submitting to my agent probably about 9 months later, I think. And we worked on the book for a while, another couple of months, and then I submitted it to Orion and got my book deal. So yeah, it's quite a work in progress, isn't it? And the more you do and the more feedback you get, the more confidence you have and Absolutely. Yes, the easier it is. And, um, everybody's got a book in them somewhere. And I suppose when you get knocked back and then life gets in the way, and then sometimes you just need a little bit of a push. And I, I know that there's a lot of people in lockdown who are just kind of going into retirement and suddenly went, you know what, this is the time to get this book out. And there's been a lot of people on GetBooked recently. So when you, you know, you said you're you're 47, 48 and that you're doing it late. You're not, you're at least 20 years younger than the majority of people that I've been coming across and I just, I think it's fantastic and I love it that, you know, you know, a good 20, 30 years ago you started a job when you were 18 or 21 and you stuck with it and now I like it that people are just going, do you know what, no, if at 70 you decide to do something completely different that is cool and that is fine and that should be the norm. And I think it's very encouraging, especially for your children, to see that they can do anything they want when they want. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I was probably, I mean, I definitely kind of lost my confidence after having written that first book. I just thought, I'm not good enough, I can't do it. And I didn't really want to try again because I think that it was something that I really, really wanted to write, you know, a book that got published. And I just thought, well, I don't think I kind of consciously thought it, but I just think subconsciously I thought, well, if I try, then there's the chance of me failing, and that's, that's just horrendous, and I can't really kind of deal with that. And I think it just took, you know, a lot more years of life and experience to realize that, you know, failing is fine. Everybody does it. Everyone's going to fail at some point, and it's far better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all. So, which is perfect, and especially everybody is so conscious at the moment, especially we have said that people are focusing on their well-being and mental health is really kind of, um, at the forefront of many discussions at the moment, and people understandably are scared to put themselves in a position where they could knock themselves down. Yeah, so it takes a lot of bravery, but also, you know, for anybody that's listening that's kind of thinking that and it's, you know, possibly the same thing to them. You know, don't live in the grey zone. You learn from mistakes, you know. Yes, yes, absolutely. And I'm so glad now, you know, that I did try because I know what the, you know, I mean, having worked in finance, I kind of knew what the odds were as well in terms of, you know, the number of people who, you know, try and write a novel and then you read, you know, the agents get 100 submissions a week and, you know, you're going to have to be that one that's picked off, you know, the slush pile. And you do feel completely overwhelmed by the odds and you just think you're never going to do it. But I just kind of thought, well, I just need to write something that I want to write, but also not be completely naive about it. And I think you have to have an awareness of the market and what agents are looking for and the kind of things that will, you know, sell and be attractive, and certainly write in one particular genre so that you know where your book is going to fit on the shelf. And if you do that, you just, you know, you never know what will happen. And I've been so lucky. I've met the most incredible people and other authors. I'm part of a group called the Debut Twenties, as we named ourselves. We all got together when kind of lockdown hit back in kind of January last year, and we could see that none of us were going to be going out anywhere for the next kind of foreseeable future, and all our book events were cancelled and things. And we've done loads of stuff online, and we've been asked to go to panels and, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, I have absolutely no regrets, and I would say to people, you know, if you are thinking about doing something that you've always wanted to do but you're too scared to, just do it anyway. You know, what is the worst that can happen? Yes, you can fail, but then you're no worse off than you are at the moment, and at least you've tried. At least you've tried, and if anybody puts you down for trying, that's down to jealousy, and at least then you haven't failed because you've figured out who not to be friends with and who to enrich your life with. Yes, absolutely. Positive attribution. I must say though, I'm aware of the group that you're a part of, of, and out of all the different communities that are on various social medias, the debut indie author groups on Instagram and Twitter are so supportive. Yes. It's just, it's lovely. I mean, I've had, I think I've interviewed quite a few people who are part of the group that you're a part of, and they just sing each other's praises, and I will be asking you in a bit, you know, you know, if you've been— what you've been reading lately. And everybody just bigs each other up, and they've got each other's back. It's not this kind of backstabbing, "No, buy my book." They're like, "No, buy theirs. It's brilliant. I wish I'd written that book." Absolutely. Yeah. And it's lovely. Yeah. It's one of the big differences, actually, coming from, you know, a kind of financial kind of background where I think I'd be, I'd be saying that the atmosphere was not always like that at all. And authors are just, well, certainly the ones I've met, and I don't know whether that's just more of the kind of crime thriller community, but I doubt it. I'm sure it's everybody across the board, and they are so supportive of each other. And I think everyone has the attitude that, you know, if you can encourage people to buy books, then they'll buy books. And, you know, it might be yours, it might be somebody else's, but if it's not yours this time, it might be yours next 'next time' kind of thing. And yeah, it's lovely, really nice, really nice industry to be in. Although I feel like I've finally put pressure on you now because I'm going to ask you if you have been reading anything and what you would recommend. Don't feel like you have to say somebody in that group now because I feel like I've kind of cornered you. Well, yeah, I have actually. I can tell— well, I mean, I have read recently, I've read Trevor Wood, who I think you've had on as well. I love his books. Yeah. And yeah, I was fortunate enough to read a proof of his latest, which is One Way Street, and it's the kind of second in a trilogy about a homeless man called Jimmy who witnesses a murder. That's how the kind of series starts, and this kind of carries on. You could read it as a standalone, or you could kind of read the first one first and then read this one. But yeah, love that, absolutely brilliant. And then a couple of nights ago, I kind of did what you did and read one of those books that you kind of pick up and read in one great big gulp, and called Tall Bones by Anna Bailey. And I later discovered she's only about 26 years old, I think, as well, which I was just, yes, in awe of her writing. It's a fabulous psychological thriller set in small-town America. And has a cast of incredible characters, all about a community called Whistling Ridge, and it's about a 17-year-old girl who goes missing, but it's not really about the girl that goes missing, it's more about the kind of community that's left behind, and yeah, I thought it was utterly fantastic. It quite often is. Like everybody thinks it's about something, but it's everything else that kind of encompasses what's happening. I'm just looking at it now. In a town full of secrets, it's hard to tell where the truth lies. Oh, I like that. Great cover, isn't it? It's a beautiful cover. And yes, you should read it, Hazel, because you'd— I think, yeah, you'd love it. It's— it's— yeah, the writing, the prose is sublime, and it's a fabulous story. So is that your kind of favorite? Do you have a favorite genre? Yeah, I mean, I, I read lots of different genres, but psychological thrillers are, um, I think my favorite. But, um, but more kind of psychological thrillers that have, um, have that kind of emotional depth to them. Um, so it's, it's got to be, um, I will read, you know, I just read kind of, you know, page-turnery ones, and I love that. But I think the ones that really kind of stay with me are the ones where you, you just have these these fantastic characters that you, you know, you're either rooting for or you hate or, you know, you want something to happen to. And yeah, those are the ones that I really like. You end up investing in the characters. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, that was the thing as well, especially with Trevor Woods. I was like, right, he did say that it was going to be just a trilogy and it stopped from there because once the character has developed over 3 books, he can't really go any further and still be authentic. And I was like, "But I already really like him, I don't want him to go." And it is bizarre because sometimes people can be a complete mess, but if a good author can write them so well that you just think— and that's the thing as well, isn't it? Have you ever seen Shameless, the US version? No. No, I haven't. That's a good example of that because it's basically like— have you seen, have you seen the UK version? Yes, yes, I have. Well, the patriarch is William H. Macy, which quite frankly, he could do anything. He could just sit there and do the ironing and you'd be like completely enthralled by him. I feel like that about Nicola Walker, you know, who plays Yes, Cassie in Unforgotten, like I could just, I could watch her in anything. Yeah, she's brilliant, isn't she? Absolutely brilliant. Yeah, yeah, love her. I actually still need to finish the latest series of Unforgotten. I need to do it again from the beginning because I watched the first one, I was like, ah, and then Line of Duty happened and it just all messed up. Yeah, yes, yes. But yeah, really bizarrely, in the US version of Shameless, I mean, William H. Macy, the character he plays, he's work-shy, drug-addled, terrible father, really bad, I mean, and just a terrible friend. He does horrible things to people, but he's just so lovable. And because they've written it brilliantly, and you just think, that's just clever, and I love that, and it's just challenging our perceptions. Anything that challenges our perceptions of other people, I just think is fantastic, and it's escape, especially with what's going on at the moment. Yes, yes, fiction is better at the moment, isn't it? Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And I think that there's a real, I think kind of a lot of books are kind of, it's kind of the books to film thing. I think there's a lot of books that are ending up kind of on the screen as well at the moment, probably because everybody's looking for, you know, for things to watch, I think, watch or read. In lockdown. And although luckily, hopefully, touch wood, we're out of lockdown now, I think that, yeah, I think that there's going to be quite a few things that we see like that on TV that kind of come through and you think, yeah, that's going to be good. Have you seen The Terror at all on TV? I was thinking of your son and horror. Do you, have you seen that? No, what is it? It's on, I don't know if it's on Netflix or iPlayer, but it's on one of those those, and I didn't think I'd like it because it's the retelling of— it's based on a book, I think it's called Dan Simmons's book, which was called The Terror, and it follows a group of men in about 1845 who take two ships, HMS Erebus and HMS Terror, hence the name, the title of the kind of series, to try and find the Northwest Passage through the Arctic. And, um, it's— I didn't realize it's based on a true story, um, very loosely I think based on a true story, um, but it is absolutely brilliant. And, um, it's, it's got an amazing cast. It's got Jared Harris in it, um, um, lots of other people that you'd recognize. I'm just looking at it now on them. Yeah. And I think when you have, when you have a group of men who are cut off from all civilization, particularly from that era where they're used to all the kind of rules of the Navy and the kind of strictness of it, if you like, and it's really watching them completely fall apart and obviously threatened by the kind of snow and ice and horrendous conditions, but actually what they do to each other is just brilliant. So yes, that's a highly recommend. And it's a series, isn't it, by the looks of it? It looks like it is a series. Yeah. Oh, well, I will make sure that I watch it. We do watch quite inappropriate stuff. We love the worst terror, the better. So, you know, if you can do Child's Play, you can definitely do this. So it's another one of those, you know, it's quite a— it's a slow burn to start with and very kind of insidious kind of fear and a feeling of uncomfortableness, and then it kind of just rises up to this, yeah, amazing kind of conclusion finale. It's wonderful. Oh, well, I like it that you've been watching that because that's kind of giving me the urge that maybe you're gonna go even more terror-related in some of your books. Are you gonna go down that route? I think my third one is probably my darkest Yes, I mean, if it stays in its current format. So yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say, you know, it's definitely not all out horror as such, but it's definitely dark. So yeah, I love that. Drawn to the dark side of things, I think. So yeah. Yes, let's all channel Batman. Yes. And talking about something possibly a little bit less terror related, A question I like to ask all my guests here for Get Booked is, um, because I like to spread a bit of positivity, who is there out there at the moment that you think is somebody to watch? You think they're smashing it out the park, they're a great person, and, you know, it can even be, as you said, you know, Nicola Walker, who is just a fantastic actress and she completely nails everything, um, but sometimes it's just, you know, when you just need a little bit of something intellectual or you want someone to just brighten up your day, who is your go-to? Oh my goodness me, that's a very good question. Well, I've got a kind of, I've got a WhatsApp group actually with, there's 3 other women on there and we met in 2019. I was lucky enough to go to the Harrogate Crime Festival because All in Her Head was obviously coming out the following April, um, and so Orion kind of sent me up there, um, and I got to sign a few proofs and things. But it was somewhere that I'd heard of, obviously, in the kind of crime community. The Harrogate Festival is, is huge, it's a massive event, um, but I didn't know anybody at all, um, so I was quite nervous, um, and obviously, you know, you kind of book yourself into a hotel and, um, and then I just thought, oh my God, I'm going to be standing around on my own all day, kind of, you know, smiling at people desperately hoping somebody's going to come and talk to me. Um, but I met, um, 3 other ladies, um, there, 2 of whom are psychological kind of thriller writers, I guess, like me. So, um, Lauren North and Zoe Lee, um, and then another lovely lady called Laura Pearson, um, who writes, um, that she's had several books published, um, but then they're not kind of psychological thrillers. They're I don't know what you'd call them, I guess women's fiction kind of book club type books. And we stayed in touch after the festival. We kind of held each other's hands, not literally, but kind of metaphorically, as we went around the festival and kind of hung out for 3 days and had such a good time that we said we'd go back the following year. And obviously we couldn't because the festival was cancelled. So we've rolled the house that we kind of booked come to this year and we're still hoping, hoping, hoping that we can get to go in July. Although yeah, who knows at the moment. But I'd say that they are my kind of go-to feel-good people. So we keep in touch on probably like sometimes a daily basis or, you know, every few days. And if one of us is feeling down or, you know, one of us is out on submission or, you know, has had an idea knocked back by an editor or whatever we're going through, really, we can kind of chat things through and kind of support each other and give each other, you know, real moral support. So I'd say that they are my go-to people. But in terms of someone famous or kind of well-known, I don't know. I mean, I listen to lots of podcasts like the Elizabeth Day kind of How to Fail I thought that was really, really good, that podcast. And I think, yeah, it just, it just kind of depends what mood I'm in, really. Yeah, I kind of need that, that particular time, I think. And yeah, sometimes it's good to listen to other people who, you know, who have failed, because that just makes you kind of feel, okay, at least it's not me, you know, if you're, if you're having a really nice time and And then other times I just like listening to kind of maybe lots of book podcasts. I think I listen to, there's one called Quick Book Reviews that Philippa does. I don't actually know her surname, but she does this podcast and has great book recommendations. And then that can sometimes just lead to something that you pick up and read and makes you feel better. So nice, I like that. And I think also in terms of like the book review podcast, people have had the chance to get back into reading, haven't they? People who all thought that they never had time and they're understanding, they've had the opportunity to fall back in love with it, haven't they? Absolutely, and I think that, I mean, we keep reading reports, I think this year, that book sales are up up, you know, quite a lot in the pandemic. And I think that that's certainly true, but I think that often people turn to things that they're familiar with and comfortable with to kind of just, yeah, get that kind of feeling of comfort. So I think a lot of big authors particularly have probably done amazingly well over the pandemic because they're well known and people turn to them, but I think it's definitely been harder for debut authors because we don't have the exposure. And obviously, you know, in a lot of cases books have come out in lockdown, so they haven't been visible in shops and things. So, so yes, I would, I would say that if you, if you have turned back to reading, then, then do kind of try something different. If you haven't picked up a debut author, then, then yes, follow the D20s on Twitter, and there'll be a lot of suggestions of different kind of genres that that people can read and enjoy. And do you know what, I predominantly, I think probably 80% of my reading and my TBRs are indies and debuts, or, you know, people that have been on the show. That's how we predominantly get the, the newer authors on the show, because, you know, unless you've got 200,000 followers, you know, the mainstream media they're just— they don't see it as worth their time. And if, you know, all those people that are listening to the show right now, if you've read a good book from a debut author, or you're considering reading one, wax lyrical about it. Tell people about it when, you know, when you've come across it, and try something new in your book clubs. And the majority of the reviews that I do on hazelbutterfield.com on Amazon.com are from debut authors. Because, you know, your big books, they're here, there, and everywhere. We— they don't need another review. And a little bit of a reminder to all the listeners out there, it takes maybe 5 minutes to pop onto Amazon and give a review because that really helps your sales, doesn't it? Absolutely, yes, yes. That's the biggest thing that I always say to people that they can do to help authors is pop a review on Amazon. I think now you don't even actually have to write anything. I think you can just kind of leave, you know, stars. So, you know, it would literally take 30 seconds, but that really, really helps all authors because I think that a lot of readers don't realize that the kind of ratings generate the algorithm or the algorithms within Amazon. Kind of operate off kind of ratings and the number of reviews books have. So the more reviews you have, the more you kind of become visible on the site. So that's really important. And obviously kind of Waterstones and Goodreads as well. If people have the time, if they can leave a review on there, then that's fantastic. And also I think you get a better quality from debut authors because it's so hard to get published. I mean, if you do have you have 200,000-300,000 followers or you're in the public eye, you can literally just list your Tesco shopping and you're gonna get a publication deal, right? So there's not the pressure on them to be that good, whereas debut authors really do have to, you know, pull the finger out and write a good book. So I feel quite honoured to be able to read all these fantastic books and get all these suggestions where I think the quality of the debut authors' books that I've been reading over the last couple of years are incredible in comparison to some of the drivel that's out there from people who just decided to write a book because it's the next thing on their Instagram to-do list by their agent. If that sounds cynical, I apologize. Yes, I mean, I've, yeah, I mean, I've I read everybody, so, you know, some amazing, you know, people who've been out there for ages, but I agree, some of the— I think probably because I've been more focused on debuts over the last couple of years, and the quality of some of them are just incredible. So, yeah. Because they really have to make it work because they don't have their following to just ride the wave with. Absolutely, and I think, as you say, because I think over lockdown particularly, there's a lot of people who've taken the time to kind of write a novel. Submissions to agents have gone up hugely, I believe, and so, you know, you've really got to stand out on that slush pile to get picked and noticed and a deal. So yeah. Have you watched Younger? No. Have you heard of it? No. It's based in New York where there is a woman who gets divorced and she looks quite young and she can't get back into publishing, so she manages to pass herself off as a 24-year-old so she can get a job as an intern. And she ends up with somebody else setting up an imprint called Millennial, and it's just all about the publishing world and just how kind of how messed up it is and how if you've got a little bit of money— I will have to watch that. That sounds, yes, definitely one for me. Okay. And it's all based on the publishing industry and just especially the more I've got involved through Get Booked with the industry and the intricacies behind and how people can distort listenership and who they're going to actually sign whether the book is good or not. But it's going to work in their favor for the agent or the publisher and whatnot. And it's very interesting, very funny. It's a bit of a comedy as well. But it's very interesting watching a 40-year-old trying to pass herself as a 24-year-old. And, you know, definitely one to watch. But it's— Oh, excellent. Yeah, it's good quality. I like it. We're kind of running out of time. I still need to ask you one of my— we've done the first main question. The second main question is 3 tips on wellbeing. What have you found has got you through over the last year or so? Oh, I think— oh goodness me. I think try not to watch or listen to the news too much. I think that I've got better at that. I think at the beginning of the pandemic, I think I'm quite a control freak, I think, at heart, and I needed to be kind of listening to the news and knowing what was going on and everything like that. But I think that sometimes actually that just makes your stress levels go through the ceiling, and because you don't have any control over what's happening. So I think, yeah, I'm not saying don't ever listen to the news, but I'm saying, you you know, switch off when you need to be getting other stuff done. Otherwise your brain is just kind of concentrating and panicking about that. And I would say take some time for yourself if you can, you know, do relax, read a good book, watch a good film or TV series or whatever. I think that's really kind of kept me going. Self-care, isn't it? Because if you don't actually actually give yourself something to recharge. All these people who do 12-hour days, and actually they probably stop being productive at the 6th hour and they're just wasting their time. Yes, yes. Um, I mean, yeah, I think that I, I certainly need, you know, I need that little bit of kind of, you know, headspace and things, otherwise I can't function. Um, and I think being in a kind of creative industry where you're trying to, you know, create great worlds for people to read about. You need inspiration from, from kind of external sources often to do that, and you know, sitting in, you know, a small room surrounded by the same four walls for kind of a year and a half is— it means it's pretty tricky. So yeah, I think, I think that kind of that switch-off time. And then I would just say in terms of being Being an author anyway, I'd say just don't compare yourself to other people. I think that, you know, if you start thinking, oh, so-and-so's done this or got this or whatever, I think that that can, you know, just make you a very unhappy person. I think just concentrate on what you're doing and try to do it as well as you can. And keeping in mind that it's extremely rare that anybody's honestly putting out what's going on in their life anyway. Absolutely, yes. I'm pretty certain that the majority of people whose lives we look at and we think, wow, that's incredible, the more incredible it looks, the more likely it's not necessarily as accurate. Absolutely, yes. I mean, social media is, you know, it's a joy in certain ways because, you know, certainly as an author, it lets you, you know, reach your readers that little bit easier. But I think that, yeah, it's so filtered. What you, what you see on there is not, it's not necessarily, as you say, at all what people are going through. So I think it's very important to bear that in mind. And we're unique, and we need to focus and spend more time figuring out who we are as ourselves, because then we can actually make sure that we're building a life that suits us and not a complete stranger or somebody who has completely different life goals to us. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I love those, I think they're absolutely fantastic. You write about the news as well. I try and stay away from it as much as possible, and I had a few friends who work in the media industry, and they really struggled in lockdown because they had to read the articles because, you know, they were editing them and publishing them, and they were just going, 'It's horrible out there.' I'm going, 'You've got to stop reading this.' Yes, yes, and that's the thing, isn't it? I think it's very difficult. This is the, you know, we have absolutely no control really over what's going on, and you're kind of, you know, you can feel, I mean, even I've felt, you know, this week with all the kind of reports sorts of the Indian variant and things that are coming back in, and you can feel that kind of, you know, your shoulders kind of tense up slightly and you're thinking, oh no, please don't want to go back into lockdown and things. But you know, actually at the end of the day, you know, you don't have any control over that. So yeah, it, I just find it easier to try and switch off, I think, and concentrate on what I need to get done. Otherwise, otherwise I won't end up doing anything. Well, you won't, and as you said, we do not have control over it. But also we have to remember that the people that are reporting on this are people who have to sensationalise the information to make sure that we click and buy. So just everyone be a little bit more mindful and be cautious of what you consume, and also be careful of who you have relationships Yes, yes, absolutely. Otherwise you'll end up in the same situation as the women in your book, 'Look What You Made Me Do.' I just want to very quickly point out to all of our listeners to pop on to nickysmithauthor.com to find out a little bit more about you, sign up for your newsletter, bing bang bosh. Thank you, Hazel. Yes, you're very welcome. And the last hour's flown by Thank you so much, Nikki, for joining me and having a good old chinwag with me. And I really can't wait for the third book to come out. I hope you let me know as soon as it comes out. Oh, I absolutely will, Hazel. Yeah, I'll keep you updated and let you know when, fingers crossed, Orion say that they want it, and then I'll be able to let you know when it's out next year. So yeah, Orion, I hope so. Thank you so much for having me. We've just put the pressure on Orion there, so that's great. You're very welcome. Thank you for joining me here on Get Booked for Women's and Men's radio station, and enjoy the rest of your day. You too. Thanks ever so much. You're welcome.