Get Booked – Tova Leigh F*cked At 40

Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield and this is Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. On Get Booked, we love talking to authors about their new releases, going into detail about the topics covered, the mental health and well-being elements, publishing and writing tips, and giving you the extra special insight into a different book and the author each week. And next up is an absolute treat for you, the outspokenly honest, rare red PVC catsuit-wearing believer in shoving the box where people don't want to hear about, and all-round truth speaker, writer, podcaster, entertainer specializing in the mom life crisis, and author of the book— we're going to call it Fudged at 40 to make it, uh, radio-friendly— the deliciously unique Tova Lee. Hi! Oh my God, hi Hazel, what an intro! I'm gonna record that and play it everywhere I go. I love it! You are welcome, I'll send it to you. Amazing, thank you. So good to be here today. Yeah, I've been so looking forward to chatting to you. Like, the kids have been trying to homeschool this morning and they've been— I've been listening to some of the videos and like, especially like your news updates and how to turn your car into your extra little wellbeing space. And they're like, Mom, what's going on? Yeah, no, I know. It has not been easy, has it? Like, I find myself in moments that I'm just like, "Stop! I can't! I just can't! I can't anymore!" It is crazy. The other day I was shooting a video and it was a Beyoncé mashup type of video, as you do. So there I am in my granny pants, red heels, and a sort of fake fur coat, and the kids are now asking for lunch, and I'm standing in the kitchen making a spaghetti bolognese. And the doorbell goes, and I've got 3 dogs, so all of them are barking, and you just feel like it's just like really impossible. You know, I just need a few hours a day to get my stuff done, you know. It's been challenging. I went out on my exercise walk this morning, and some of the mums from school were like, oh, Hazel, you— there's all the details have come out of when we can start seeing people, and are you gonna start dating? Is that the first thing you're gonna do? And I'm like, no, I'm gonna go into a bar I'm gonna get some really nice barman to serve me champagne while I'm not interrupted. And seriously, if I just want the odd chat, I literally just want him to look and go, "Hey, you're pretty," and then just kind of leave me alone. And they're like, "Oh, but haven't you missed having contact?" I'm like, "No, the main topic of conversation is whether my youngest kid has managed to produce a floater or whether it's gone down in the first flush." I'm like, "No, I want some time on my own." That's so true, and I think everybody's feeling that. I thought it was really just me. It's exactly how I feel because, you know, I'm very sociable, love going out with friends, love meeting up with friends, love chatting with friends, and I just don't want to talk to anyone. I'm gonna do your thing. That's exactly what I'm gonna do. When they open the bars, I might even be sat right there next to you, but we cannot speak. Don't speak to me. Every now and again we'll just like instant message on Instagram or something. Yeah. Like, hey, do you want another drink? Yeah. 'Cool, I, you, drink please.' Exactly. Oh my gosh, I've missed that though. It's just like the silence. And I mean, my kids— I'm guessing that your kids are probably a little bit like mine. Mine are bonkers. We have horrific levels of sarcasm. And I've had to say something like, 'Listen guys, we're going to be socializing with people again soon.' So like pants on. Um, and there's some of that stuff that we've been saying over the last 2 or 3 months, you can't get away with that in polite company. And I've got to be honest, people don't want to know whether your flatulence is— yeah, you know, monumental or not. We've got to rein it in. I mean, fart talk and just farts in general, like, over the past few months— yeah, you're right, it's just all gone out the window. Any type of kind of behaving, any I've been a little bit like civilized, but also, you know, I think my kids have probably heard me— I know I'm not allowed to swear, right? But have heard me say the F word more times over the past few weeks than ever, ever, ever in my life. I'm actually really worried that they go back to school and just go, "Oh, for fudge's sake," you know, at the teacher, because that's what they hear me, you know, mumble and mutter all day long. Thing is, I'm a northerner, so I was brought up on swearing, you know, and it was like, I do swear a lot to my kids, and I do have other mums going, uh, you shouldn't really be saying that to your kids. And I'm like, actually, we're really a close family and it's just our kind of humor. I'm not doing it to shout at them. Yeah, yeah. Like, my 11-year-old, he won't even say Schitt's Creek when I want to watch it on Netflix. He calls it S-word Creek. And I'm like, how have I got such a good child? Basically. That is so true. My kids are like that as well. Like, I swear quite a bit as well. Of course, not at them, just around them. And they will do the same. They're like, "Oh, Mommy, you just said the F-word," and, "Oh, Mommy, you just said the S-word." It's funny. I don't know. I don't know how that's happened. It's very, very odd. But I think it is going to be so difficult to get used to you know, being just normal around other people. We've sort of like, do you know what I mean? We've just become like, it's really, you have to kind of learn how to do these things again, even just meet up with friends and socialize again. It does feel very strange at the moment. I don't know what that's going to look like. And also I'm really not in the mood yet, you know, everybody's so excited about June and clubs opening and whatever. And I'm like, really? I don't know. It feels very far away from me at the moment. I just want to go on holiday and isolate even more somewhere warm. Yeah, is that the thing? Because Mike's feeling that so much. He's like, I can't wait to get away, I need the sun. And he's like fantasizing, he's looking up trips to Thailand. And I hate flying, so secretly I'm quite happy that we couldn't go anywhere. I'm like, you know, really, maybe we should be careful and wait an extra year. And he's like, no way, the moment we can go, we're off. And I'm like, oh God. Um, yeah, well, to be fair, I mean, he has had to spend pretty much the last year just doing whatever you want in terms of videos. You're like, come on, Mike, I need you to hold this camera while basically you fire a hair dryer at me and I'm just gonna sing and do this and kind of get my boobs out a little bit. And he's like, yeah, sure, honey. Um, so if he goes, I want to go on holiday, you know, after helping you with your lockdown videos, you know, just, just just, you know, have a couple of drinks. Yes. And yeah, get on with it. No, of course. Like, but no, he actually really enjoys doing the videos. This is something that people don't, I think, don't realize. Because like, I guess he likes playing up that role of, you know, oh, she dragged me into it. You know, that's kind of like part of the charm. But really, he's up for it for sure. You know, he's definitely up for it for sure. A lot of people usually say, oh my God, How do you get your husband to participate and to be so, you know, up for stuff like that? But I don't need to convince him. It doesn't take a lot of convincing, basically. Not at all. He doesn't look like he really needs convincing. He just looks like he likes to use you as a scapegoat for just doing crazy stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly that. That is exactly correct. Yeah, because, you know, if it goes all wrong, it's my fault, and if it's brilliant, then of course it's thanks to him. So, you know. No, perfect. To be honest, you know, I mean, it must be, um, he's, he's never going to have the same day. I mean, I know you've done like Groundhog Day videos, but I'm, I'm guessing that no day is the same in the, in the Lee household. I mean, you know, it's funny, some days I feel like this job, it should be more exciting than it actually is because I think probably on the outside it does look like we're constantly in granny pants, you know, shooting Beyoncé videos in the garden with my you know, with a hair dryer. And that's not the reality, you know, most of our days are really boring, you know, it's like everybody else, just there's this homeschooling, having to cook again, and like all of that. But then there are the days that I shoot videos and on those days I guess anything can happen. So my neighbors are totally used to it now and we've done lots of stuff on our street and, you know, they don't even look anymore. They used to look out the window, they don't bother anymore. Oh, that's just Tova doing a video. Yeah, she's in her underwear. Yeah, she fights the rain and, you know. He asks me a lot, he's like, do you not, like, do you not mind, um, you know, do you not mind that, you know, people are watching? We did this dancing one up at the top of our road and it was like on a main street, so there was quite a lot of traffic. I really don't care, you know, like I really don't care. I have this thing about like If I don't— if they— if the people, they don't know me and I don't know them, like, I'm never going to see them again, they're never going to see me again, what does it matter? But Mike doesn't feel that way, like, he would— he cringes at those moments. Those are the moments that he struggles with when we do stuff in public, and it's always me making a fool of myself, but he's in the video, he's in the— he's there, so those are the bits he's like, come on, come on, have we finished? Have we finished? I think we have it, we have it, let's go. But isn't that pretty much what Fudged at 40 all about. It's doing what you want to do and caring less about what other people think and their judgments. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, it really did happen without thinking about it much. I do believe that it has to do with age. Obviously, the book is titled Fudged at 40 because in my 40s I had this kind of midlife crisis, and one of the things that came out of that was that sort of, you know, life's too short. To fake it, to care so much about what other people think about you and to just not be who you truly are, even if it happens to be somebody quite loud who doesn't mind, like, you know, whatever, doing these funny things in public. And I just really realized that, that, you know, I don't know why I'm living, trying to live up to other people's expectations of me. These other people don't know me and the mold that they think I should fit into it just doesn't fit. So why am I fighting it? Do you know what I mean? And that came for me, like, I realized that about a lot of aspects, one of them being motherhood. You know, I so, so desperately wanted to be the mom who enjoys baking cupcakes. Forget that. I so wanted to be the mom who knew how to bake cupcakes. You know? So desperately. It's just not who I am. I honestly, I've tried, I can't do it. It's not me, don't enjoy it. And I decided at some point to accept, okay, this is the type of mom that I am, and I'm gonna just create my own mold of how I do it. And it might be absolutely wrong for everybody else, but it's right for me. And that's all I can ever do, you know. Well, that's what a lot of the mental health, mental well-being issues are at the moment, that people are trying to fit into a box that they don't fit into. Into because society or the woman next door has shamed them into it. Weirdly, as you get into your 40s, there's so many people that I've known that hit their 40s and just gone, I wish I knew now. Yeah, what, what, back in my 20s and 30s, just how much I shouldn't care about what other people think. And yet you reach your 40s and you care less about what other people think. But there are so many people that then think that they are put into certain constraints because they're in their 40s and they have responsibility to responsibilities, or perceived ideals of who they should be and how they should behave. And I mean, I've always been a huge fan of kind of sticking the box somewhere where the sun don't shine. But, you know, funnily enough, like, a friend of mine, a really good friend of mine, had said to us, oh, why are people so funny with me in the playground? And they're like, well, Hazel, you rock up in like hot pants with red lipstick on and your hair kind of looking like you've left it for about 3 weeks, and you seem to kind of just, you know, you just do it. And like, when people get get to know you, they like you. And I'm like, but that's not okay. Yeah, so they have like a preconception and they're thinking, I'm not gonna like her, but then when they get to know you, they like you. Yeah, isn't that annoying though? Oh my— oh yeah, fashion. Yeah, because you don't fit into the, I guess, the mom mold, maybe the mom box of how, you know, you're supposed to look on the playground. Yeah, I mean, sometimes my kids get embarrassed by it. Like, I used to go out rollerblading with my kids and I'd wear the whole gear, like the his gear and somebody came past and they went, "Hi Leo, who's this?" And it was one of his dinner ladies at school. He goes, "This is my mom." And she just went, she looked me up and down and went, "Are you sure?" How funny. Wow. I'm allowed to rollerblade in, you know, Lake Warmers. Of course you are. Oh, that's superb. Now you've inspired me. Like, that's my next item on my bucket list. I gotta do it. Wow. That is so cool. It's true, it's true. There's a mom box, there's a mom mold, and it's like, it's hard to step out of it. What I found actually was that you do get judged. You get judged sometimes by other women even who are, you know, probably stuck in the same box as you are. They're probably dying to get out of it too. But, you know, I got those looks, not so much about the rollerblades because I never did the rollerblades, but when I when I went on this kind of like, right, bucket list midlife crisis, gotta go rediscover myself, I'm stepping up, stepping out of this box and all that, I really took a step back, you know. I sort of really took a step back and Mike had to sort of like step up and suddenly it wasn't me doing the school run and suddenly it wasn't me on the WhatsApp groups and suddenly it wasn't me doing all these things that I had done for 6 years because I really needed that you know, that setback. So then when I would show up, I'd get these kind of, "Ah, oh, nice to see you. Where have you been?" You know, that kind of— "It's nice for some to do whatever they want." And I was a bit like, for 6 years I was there every single morning and every single afternoon. And, you know, I've worked throughout, you know, my kids' lives, and never once did anybody ask me where Mike was, or never once did anybody say anything about Mike not being there. In fact, the opposite was true when he, for example, you know, came, because of course he did, he took part in many things, but he wasn't like doing the day-to-day stuff. So, you know, he'd show up to the bake sale and everybody would talk about what a saint he was, and I was a bit like, are you joking? How is this okay? You know, and that was very eye-opening, by the way, you know. When he's babysitting the kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Babysitting your own kids. Yeah, yeah, and it's not like that. For us at all now, you know, but it really was a process and it took time to sort of see that, you know. Now honestly, I don't care. Like, I remember when they would give me those books back then and say that, I was a bit like, "Oh, am I a bad mom?" Like, I felt guilty, you know. I was like, "Oh God, I've neglected my children." And it was actually Mike who said to me, "But I was with them. I mean, I was with them." 'So how is that neglect? You know, they had a parent that was there. You took some time for yourself, you know, so how is that neglect?' And I was like, 'Oh, right.' You know what though, Toby, you can't win no matter what you do. I took my kids backpacking in Southeast Asia and they turned around and said, 'Oh, why can't you just do things normally? How is that safe?' I'm like, 'Would you say that if my ex-husband took them away? It wouldn't be a problem whatsoever.' That's for sure. But wait, how old were they? That's incredible. They were 4 and 7. Oh, that's amazing. But to be honest, I do it all the time. Like, okay, it's really nice places and it's just like the 3 of us. You have to take a little bit of extra caution, but yeah, you know, it's, you know, I've met people, I had friends who were on Sokhuan and they were like, um, yeah, we're in Cambodia, let's meet I was like, yeah, cool. Amazing. But that's such a great experience for the kids, you know. But you're right, people would probably judge, I guess, a father or dad less. And, you know, this is in the book as well. When I went to Nepal, because I did the Everest Base Camp trek, and I went out for 3 weeks by myself, I mean, with my brother, and I left the kids with Mike. And, you know, I was, oh God, tormenting myself like, yeah, God, well, what am I doing? Is this okay? Like, is this too much and all of that. And one of the things I had real anxiety about, I told you, I really do hate flying. I have a fear of flight. So I thought every flight I'm like thinking I'm going to die. So I was like, okay, I'm going to die and basically leave my children without a mother. How selfish can I possibly be? Like, that is awful. You know, I'm like, that is so much guilt. And then I remember coming across this article that talked about, you know, a female mountain climber. I'm sorry, I can't remember her name, but she had died on one of her climbs. But the headline said, "Mom," mother climber, right? "Dies on climb and leaves," whatever, "children behind." Labels. Yes, it was the mom that was— she did it. Do you know what I mean? And I was thinking, I wonder if it had been a male climber. Would they say father climber or would they just say climber? You know, would they just say a mountain climber? Like how his, you know, do you get what I'm saying? Do you get what I'm getting at? Yeah, completely. It's like that degree of supposed irresponsibility. Yeah, yeah. A man can do whatever he wants, right? Yeah, and I just thought, well, I guess this guilt is coming really from mom guilt, from how we're programmed to think, you know, and it, you know, this sort of like these messages are around us all the time and from, you know, the beginning of time, so we don't even notice them there. And Mike was like, I go every summer to Edinburgh for 2 weeks for the Edinburgh Festival and I have, I've missed you guys, I've missed the kids, I've missed you, but I've never felt guilty about it. Like I've never gone away and sort of gone, oh, I'm leaving my family, I'm leaving my kids, like it's never crossed my mind. It's very strange. Do you know what is bizarre though? Like, I mean, what I urge in a lot of like my blogs and my posts is for people to be aware of what they are a part of. And there are lots of different women out there, but there's— and they react differently. And sometimes people are jealous, and sometimes when people are jealous, they are fearful. And, you know, they then say things when they're panicking to kind of lessen what you're doing so that they feel better about what they're doing. And it's just, it can be so incredibly dangerous. And I mean, I know when I split up with my— when I, when actually I got divorced, I was basically, um, bullied by so many women because they thought that I wouldn't, that I was just being spoiled. I mean, my, my ex-husband had a bit of money and they just thought I was just being a little spoiled, that I wouldn't tolerate the way that he was behaving and treating me because I should just be thankful for what I've got. But deep down, a lot of them one-on-one would say, I wish I had the nerves and the gumption to leave my husband because I'm so incredibly unhappy. And that whole fear and jealousy, it can manifest itself so toxically. Yeah, no, I, I agree. And, you know, um, There's a lot of people that are very happy in how, you know, that, you know, and how they are and what they're doing. Like you said, every woman is different. This doesn't apply on everyone, but I can totally relate with what you're saying. And I had a similar experience when it came to when we had the twins. My eldest was— had just turned 2, so it was a very challenging time, let's just say. Like, we had 3 effectively like babies, you know. She was— she wasn't even like potty trained at that point, and 3 children, and it was a very difficult pregnancy, and it was a very difficult delivery. So I, you know, I turned around to Mike literally day 3 and said, no, there's no way I can cope. Like, I was broken. I said, there's no way. We didn't have a lot of money. We had a bit of savings, and I said, we're just— we need to use all the savings and get help. And, you know, I was a stay-at-home mom for 2 years with my eldest, breastfed, and did the whole thing, and I just knew that I couldn't do it. I knew that I would— I just knew that I couldn't do it. So we got help. We got a nanny, and we had a night nurse even for the first couple of weeks. And I had so much guilt about that, so much guilt. And I remember I wrote a blog post saying like why I'm not sorry for having a nanny. And, you know, a lot of women were like very supportive and understood it. We don't have— I don't have family in this country. Mike's His parents are elderly and his mom had cancer at the time, so we didn't have support. So for us, hired help and that type of help was the only help we could get. But there was so much shaming going on. Like, there were so many people who had so much to say, like, "You're not a real mom." Like, "Oh, they're not going to have that kind of— you're not going to have that bonding." Like, they were— it was horrendous. And what was weird is that I looked around me and I knew some other twin moms who had done it by themselves and had even had more children, like 4 children, like more than we had. I was comparing myself and I thought, "Oh, if they could do it, why could not I do it?" And how awful is that? And then after some time had gone by, I had the opportunity actually to speak to one of the women who I kept in my mind comparing myself to. And I told her how I was feeling, like I was crying and I was like, "You know, I feel awful, like I haven't done this or I haven't done that." And she said to me, "Tova," Can I just say to you, looking back, I am so like jealous of you that you did that. I didn't allow myself to say out loud what you said and get the help that I needed. And just so you know, I went through a mental breakdown. I was— it was the most difficult time of my life. She talked me through her experience and how bad it was, and she was like, I I wish I could go back in time and allowed myself to have that help. But you never know it at the time because I don't think people talk about it either. You know what I mean? I don't think as women sometimes we share those real struggles in real time. So you kind of go and you think, oh, everybody else is coping. So what's wrong with me? You know? I don't know if that makes sense. No, completely. And the irony is, is that, you know, if you put your sanity first, which sometimes, you know, from the outside, it looks like selfishness, but actually you need to be sane to be a decent partner, a decent friend, a decent mother, a decent worker. And it's all very well if there's any parent out there who is struggling trying to do it all because they don't want to be seen as somebody who had to get help or look like they're being selfish, but yet they're shouting at their kids constantly constantly. They don't have time to do things, and they feel so miserable that they either end up hating their partner or end up having a breakdown, which makes them even less present, you know. And, and you need to put your sanity first. And it's, it's not always just about the self, it's about everybody else around you. I mean, that's what you did, isn't it, in the crisis? Yeah, I think so. I think, um, you know, like It's weird because I think that I've had a lot of moments in the past few years where I've kind of reached my limit and maybe I have learned from experience. Even with what I just said with the twins was such a hard time and we did get help, but obviously like I said, we could only afford the help for as much as we could. And after that was still a struggle and it was a struggle for a long time. And that's how the blog actually was born, started. The kids, the twins were about 2, I think, when I started the blog. And I obviously had gone— it wasn't those early days that you don't sleep and, you know, and you're just like a zombie walking around not knowing what day it is. So, we were beyond that point, but we were still in a really rocky— it was still really rocky, you know. And you brought in other aspects of it, relationships, you know. I talk about this in the book as well. Mike and my relationship just completely went out the window in those first few years of, you know, of parenting. It was just not on our agenda, you know. It just was not in, you know, your priority list. It just was not on the list. We were, I think, many days surviving, getting through them, getting through like the what needed to be done, and then arriving at the evening so exhausted, just not having anything to say to each other, and it was really not a great time. And, um, we went to Vegas actually, another trip that made me feel very guilty. I've been on many, don't worry. Yeah, but they were so little, um, and we had booked it ages in advance, you know, like got this crazy good deal, like you book it like ages in advance, you have to think about it, and then slowly crept up and I was like, oh God, like it's 5 nights in Vegas without the kids. And I thought, no, brilliant. I know it was the best trip ever, but like leading up I was like, no, what do I do? Like, we're all both gonna go. And you know me with the flights, I'm like, both of us are gonna die or they're gonna be orphans. Like, oh, you know, that's Mike, change the name, like take a friend, go, go with me, like, you know, just change the name on the ticket, like just go. He was like, No, like he put his foot down. He's like, no, there's no way. We are doing this. We need this. We have to go. And it was such a good trip, you know? It was such a good trip. The moment we got on that plane, I forgot all about the kids. You know? When we got like this little— Whiskey. Yeah, exactly. We got this little upgrade. They came out with the champagne. I was like, whee! Totally forgot. And that was a really good trip for us. Because you're right, everything suffers, you know, when you don't look after yourself. The relationship definitely suffered, and it was really good to do that back then and sort of get reminded about, oh, this is why we like each other, and this is what this was all about, you know. So interestingly though, your blog, My Thoughts About Stuff, it's for a lot of people who are possibly want to go down the same route as you, but they're not writing about it. They struggle with the concept that people don't understand why they're making the decisions they do. It's nobody else's business, but sometimes people want to feel like they can explain why they're doing it, and it's a bit of a double-edged sword. Whereas you've got to explain why you were doing it. You open the conversation to make it easier for other people, and the more we talk about the struggles we're going go through, it opens up the conversations and it makes it easier and easier for other people to understand and to think, actually, yeah, this is okay. I mean, that's pretty much what the reason is for the majority of blogs, to open conversations. And I find it so bizarre, the energy people go to to say something negative. Yeah. When you're putting yourself out there. Um, and I remember writing in one of my blogs once that why it hurts. We can have like 30 people saying nice things, but when out, you know, out of those 30, if one person says something mean, you think, why should it bother you? But it takes so much energy to be mean than it does to be nice. And I think that's why it affects us. But just be a little bit mindful of our opinions, you know? Yeah. I mean, you know, welcome to the World Wide Web and social media. It's like, yeah. Teaching people to be nice and kind and just mind your own business. You don't like it, just scroll on. Like, you don't— we don't want to hear your opinion, you know. We don't have to read your blog. Yeah, yeah, you don't have to voice your opinion. Like, you, you can just move on. Um, but it's— I mean, there's so many things in there. First of all, like, for me, the blog started like a diary, you know. It was really like an outlet. I just needed to write the things that I was going through because I needed an outlet. I don't think my blog is the same anymore now. I mean, I obviously still have the blog, but I do a lot of micro posts, so directly on social media, and they're more now like I will share what's going on in my life, but I, it's coming slightly from a different place. Like it's more the other thing you mentioned, which is opening conversation about X, Y, or Z, just because I think, ah, it's not just me. I'm sure it isn't, but this people aren't talking about this, so maybe there's, there's an issue there. Like, maybe there's shame there, maybe it's taboo. Let's just open it up for conversation. Like the recent posts about libido and lockdown, and like a lot of other things that I talk about. It's not coming from a place that I want to get it out like I did when I first started the blog because I need to get it out for myself. Does that make sense? Yeah. And then things progress, don't they? Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. And also I think I've improved through the blog in actually talking to my friends and talking to my husband about everything. And I think that was one of the things initially was this kind of fear that other people, even the people closest to you, won't understand what you're— where you're coming from. So I didn't really share a lot of these thoughts and feelings with the people most close to me, and I think I've learned from that. I think I'm not like that anymore. I think I do trust more in my friends and in my husband that I can actually tell them what I think and they won't judge me and they'll be there for me and maybe even surprise me and say, oh my God, we're thinking the same thing. And that happens a lot. And with regards to the negativity, there's always going to be negativity. I really don't get fazed by it at all. I used to, but I don't anymore. I think if anything, it's great for the algorithm, especially if it's directly on social media, a nice, you know, A little troll can do a lot for getting your posts out. So, you know, I'm always very grateful for trolls. Thank you for being mean. You have made me soar through the charts. Totally. Absolutely. The only point that it gets icky is if they start lashing out at other people. So I like really don't mind if they have an issue with me because I honestly don't even read their comments. I just giggle to myself and, you know, I'm so happy that that's going on. When they start lashing out at other people in the comments, that I don't like because other people, you know, maybe haven't had the experience that I have. They have maybe a different type of, you know, I don't— do you know what I mean? Like, I don't want them to get hurt. And I— so sometimes I'll delete those type of comments. I'll just block people and just go, no. And sometimes I miss it because there's a lot of comments, so you can't always see everything. But there'll be people who send me DMs and will say, hey, Tova, there's somebody being really nasty to one of your followers on the comments, and they'll screen grab it. So I'll go in and just get rid of them. Or just redirect them to the Daily Mail. Oh yes, I'm okay, exactly. You want my website, sweetheart? You're after Daily Mail. That's where people are interested in your vitriol and complete and utter nonsense. Oh, that is so true. I mean, you know, I've been— they've written about me over the years, Daily Mail. That was the first time I saw real wow, like real nastiness, was when I read the first ever article about me on the Daily Mail. One of my videos, it was a rant about my children, and oh my God, the comments were vicious. And people really make it very personal. They don't even like comment about the video, you know, they comment about you like they know you. You know, and they said horrific things and I cried and I was really upset. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Wow. I know, I know. That is the thing though, and people are, again, with the jealousy and the fear, people are scared of people living lives different to what they understand or feel safe being a part of. And you know, when you went through the crisis, you decided to kind of tackle tackle your marriage in a slightly different way. And whether people agree with it or are jealous of it or whatever, it's your way. And we need to focus on telling people, do things your way. Don't worry if you don't like the way that other people are doing things. You're not— it's not your life. But it's, you know, it's just opening up the options. And, and then if you want to tell our listeners a little bit, like, a little bit of you decided to redirect your marital relationship. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I think it's just going back to what you said earlier, it's so true because I think people who are genuinely just happy in their lives and, you know, they're not gonna be so interested in your life. Like, if you say you've decided to do things a different way and it doesn't, it doesn't hurt anyone, like you're not hurting anyone, you're not breaking any laws or whatever, why would they care? Like, why would they care? They wouldn't. The only time I think people, you know, kind of jump and have an issue and, ooh, you know, they're like that is, like you said, if they're not sure, you know, if they have an uncertainty within themselves, right? They're defending their own way of life. They have to be mean to do that, to kind of assert what they they're doing is right, even though they know it's possibly not working for them. Yeah, and it's not working for them. Yeah, I mean, you know, within the crisis for me, I started questioning a lot of things. This is back to the second question you asked, and, you know, one of them was, you know, our— it wasn't even our relationship, it was just, I guess, relationships in general, you know, the idea of you know, you meet a guy, you get married, and you live together forever, or whatever it is, whatever marriage means for you. That idea of marriage and monogamy as a concept was never something I questioned, because I've grown up in a Western society that, you know, is founded on marriage, right, in that kind of sense. And I never questioned it. I never even more than that, I was never even aware of the, actually, the possibilities or the options or any other types of relationships that exist. They're not even like just ideas, they actually exist in real life and people are living them all over the world and I just never even, it didn't come into my mind and I questioned that as well as, like I said, other aspects of with marriage, you know, motherhood and whatever. But that was something that was very interesting to people. It's not something that I talk about a lot because it's very, very private, but I did share enough of it in the book for people to know. So we had a whole conversation about whether or not we believed in monogamy as just as an idea. And for me, it wasn't so obvious. I suddenly didn't really understand why why we were actually restricting ourselves from, you know, just being with one person. This had nothing to do, by the way, with my love for Mike or how certain I was about him or our relationship. Nothing to do with that because in fact— You've got a lot of trust. Exactly. Our relationship at the point where that came up was in such a good place because otherwise there's no way I could have ever broached the topic and actually had the conversations that we had with him if it wasn't. And I do think that maybe sometimes people use stuff like that to fix a problem, and people use other things as well. It doesn't even have to be that. It could be, oh, let's have another baby because, you know, maybe that'll fix our marriage, or, you know, there's other kind of things like that. Sleepless nights and the strain of a new baby is always perfect. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think that— functionality of relationship. Yeah. And I think for anybody listening who is potentially interested, but the reason is because something's not working in their relationship so much, then I would pause for a minute and just think about that a little bit more. But that wasn't our scenario. The scenario was, like I said, we had had those— that period of time where things were so much better. And it was through, by the way, The Crisis, you know, that kind of exploration of me going, right, I really need to find me. And it was not about Mike making me feel better, and it was not about, you know, when I did the pole dancing, people kept saying, oh, lucky Mike, lucky Mike. And I thought, why? Like, he's not there, you haven't got a pole in your house, have you? He's not doing the pole dancing, I'm doing the pole dancing. I'm doing it for me. I'm not doing it because I'm then gonna entertain him, like, with pole dancing. Like, that was not the point of it. You know, so it's weird, it's weird how people analyze like that whole thing. But yeah, it was, you know, it was that kind of question of do we want that? I felt very, I felt like that it wasn't, that it wasn't. I said, "Well, I have to put a hand on my heart, I don't really understand the logic of it." And, you know, it wasn't an easy conversation to start, that's what people usually like to know. 'How? How do you just start talking about it?' Oh, you just start. You just bring it up. And it's never a one conversation either, because I think it's also an ongoing conversation, because I also think that— yeah, it's an adaptable thing. Like, oh, people love getting into the details, but how? And how? It doesn't matter, first of all, because there's like a million ways, and other people might do it differently. But also, I think it's constantly changing, you know, like, I— and I think you have to allow that. And also you have to constantly check to see that you're still on the same page and all of those things. But yeah, at least you try to— you try, you try different ways because you wanted the relationship to work. And at the end of the day, if it hadn't have worked and you'd stopped it, you tried something else and that hadn't have worked, then yeah, maybe it was the end of the relationship. But the fact is, if you want to keep in the relationship, it's trial and error. Error. You know, we are constantly evolving beings and we can't just stay the same and expect things to just be— some people are lucky that that can happen too, but you know, if you want it to work, try new things because the alternative is doing nothing and it's staying in the state that made you want to have a change anyway. Yes, but also, you know, it's going back to that box, right? Because when I was in, you know, living, just living my life in the suburbs, you know, married, minivan, 3 kids, right? I never knew. Hey, sounds fun. Yeah, exactly. I never knew the world of, you know, anything else. I just never knew anything else. And I remember earlier on when we were talking about, you know, what is an open marriage and what is, what's the difference between that and polyamory? Like, I don't know. These words were new to me. I'd never come across them. I didn't know what they meant. And I started watching like these great documentaries and these great resources out there for anybody who is interested. And I was like, "Oh my God, like, and they said this, and oh, this sounded good, and this didn't sound for me." And, you know, and I could just open up the conversation. But what's funny is that since then, because I think with anything, you open up the door to something, you suddenly get inundated with, "Oh my God, so-and-so are doing this type of thing. And so, you know, and, and I got like messages from my followers saying, thank you so much. Like, we're actually in shock that you have put this on your grid, that you were able to put up on your grid that, hey, we're trying this out now. Like, I don't know where it's gonna lead, but we, we're interested. And you suddenly get these messages and comments of people saying, we've been doing it for years, or we did it for a few years 'cause it's not, it doesn't work for us, so now we're doing that. Like, you suddenly realize that again, I don't know to say percentage-wise how many people are living in a, you know, how do you say, ethical non-monogamous relationships, and there's loads of different types, but like, I don't know that to tell you the percentage, but you will be surprised that that is, that it's actually more common than people think. It's just not talked about. People just don't talk about it because it's frowned upon, because it's, you know, it contradicts— yeah, it's seen as being possibly, you know, how can you have the trust and respect somebody if they're cheating on you? Well, it's not cheating if it's free. Did you watch Wanderlust with Toni Collette? Yes, I did, I did. Because I thought that was a really interesting way of doing it that shows the problems but shows, you know, It showed so many different areas of it. I actually had an issue with the show. I liked it very much when it started. It was like perfect timing. Like, it was weird. The timing was just so odd for us because we were literally having similar conversations and it was like, wow. Uh, did it feel like The Truman Show? I was like, are people filming us in our house? Like, how did they get access to this knowledge? This is odd, you know? And I love her, she's so good, but I sort of didn't like the ending. I thought the ending was a bit of a cop-out, you know? I thought it was like a bit of a cop-out there, you know? But maybe they'll do more, who knows? Hopefully, anything with Toni Collette and I'm happy. Amazing, yeah, exactly, me too. What are you watching now, by the way? Are you into anything? Superstore on Netflix, I'm loving it. Wait, Superstore? What is that? Oh, it's got America Ferrera in it from Ugly Betty. It's like, it's proper kind of like American series sitcom kind of bonkers humor-esque, but actually it's one of those ones with really clever underlying themes where you just go, ah, see what they did there? That's brilliant. And that's just, it is completely, it's easy to watch and easy to, it's just, it's so funny. And it's based in like the Ozarks, kind of Missouri way. So funny, so funny. And I'm actually, I'm watching so much, so many dodgy kind of horror movies because my 14-year-old, like, he's like, so, Mum, you're so convinced you want to spend time with me because, you know, 14-year-olds, they just want to spend time in their room. And, you know, as a parent, I'm like, please spend time with me. I want to know you're okay. He's like, fine, I'll spend I want to watch Breaking Bad. I want to watch this with lots of blood and guts and stuff all the time. So I'm watching a lot of really inappropriate stuff because he's like, you want to spend time with me? This is what we're watching. Zombieland. Oh God, I couldn't do that. I hate— oh, I'm the worst when it comes to that. I make Mike watch all the, you know, the girl stuff. What are you watching at the moment? No, we just finished, I mean, no, we haven't finished actually. Don't judge me, okay? Like this was our guilty pleasure, but we have watched, we have been watching Married at First Sight Australia. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, I was so against it. Like we started and I was like, no, this is horrific. The women are portrayed here like really badly. There's all these obsessive like fathers and brothers. Couldn't stand it. I was really upset. But then I don't know, something made me watch on and it's very, it's like a real guilty pleasure. You just really get sucked into it, you really get invested in these people's lives. And we actually had Mel on our podcast, she's one of the women who was on the show on season 6 and she was so lovely. It's the It's the episode that's just released this week. She was amazing. So that was quite nice, you know. It's funny how social media, you can like approach anyone after in the world. There she is in Australia. We were, you know, interviewing her. So we watched that and then it just started now, Unforgotten. Have you watched that? I've watched all of them apart from the one that was released. Yes, there's a new one now. Yeah, there's a new one now, so we just started watching that, so that's, that's good. Well, I'm waiting for when it's, um, at the end of a halfway decent day of homeschooling, I then kind of go, "Oh kids, like, you know what, you've done so well, why don't you go on your Xbox?" And I go and like sit in my room and watch things like Unforgotten and Breaking Bad again. I know, I know. Now we've literally watched everything there is to watch on Netflix. Netflix, so it's good that I have another recommendation now to check it out. Just feel like we've watched so much TV over the past few months, doesn't it? Oh, completely. I've nearly completed Netflix, but then they keep putting it— I must say though, with Superstore, stick with it for the first couple of episodes. You might go, oh, this is a bit silly, bit too silly, but stick with it and then you'll fall in love with them and just go, oh wait, okay, sure, get it. Superstore, I like it. So are you a huge reader as well? Um, not really. I used to read much more when I had time. I feel like now my brain just can't take it in. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, it's like I'll start, it's so difficult to concentrate. I do want to go back to reading more. I've started reading actually a book that a friend sent me, but again, I'm trying to get into it. Are you a big reader? Do you read a lot? I read a lot, yeah, about 2 books a week, especially because of GetFit. Wow! But I like the escape, and also it's that whole thing of, you know, if you want to go for an exercise walk or you go for a run, or maybe you just— Oh, so you do audiobooks, do you mean? I do, I do all of them, so I always have at least one audiobook book going all the time, and then I have 2 or 3, um, hardbacks or Kindle that I go throughout the week. And also, you know, I'm a single mom, so sometimes it's nice to have like the audiobooks while you're sitting in the kitchen. Yeah. Or doing whatever. I mean, I have been known in the past month or so to like have a glass of cider with the oven on and the doors open, and I'm wearing like summer clothing to make it feel like I'm on a beach somewhere. It's really bad. The kids come in, they're like, "Ostai, Mum." Oh, that's superb! Oh, that's just so good. That is just genius. I love that. You see, I need to get into audiobooks. I think that's the way forward, you know, and just have it play while I'm doing other things and on my walk. Yeah, I think things like— I mean, I've got Promised Land going on at the moment with Obama, and he is 29 hours. And he does the whole lot. I mean, it just shows, you know, his attention to detail as the president anyway. But the fact that he's done the whole 29 hours, he's narrated it himself. And I'm sorry, but he could just recite the shopping list and I'd be interested in what he's got to say. He just— and even when he uses the F-word, you're like, oh my God, Dad just swore! Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. So you recommend it? You, you, you're, you're halfway through it. Where, at what point are you? Are you like, I'm not even listening. I don't know. I'm just like playing in the background. About 10 hours in and I'm loving him. I'm also actually, I've just downloaded The Hangover games as well. Okay. Which is, yeah, brilliant. I think that's Sophie Hewitt. And, um, I just like it just because occasionally as well, my kids come out for the walks with me. They've got their earphones on and I'm like, I can do that too. You don't have to ignore me. I can ignore you too. I am petty like that with my children. Yeah, no, no, that's really good. You see, I, I use— I mean, I like listening to music on my walks, but I should, I should definitely give audiobooks a try. It's a really good idea. I'm gonna give it a go. You've inspired me now. Oh wow, you're like inspiring me here to do the rollerblades. Just don't rollerblade while you're listening to an audiobook. No, that's too much to focus on. We can multitask, we are women, here is raw. That is true. The only problem is if you're listening to something really funny and you start giggling wearing, you know, with your hair flowing down and nobody can see you've got ear things in and you're dressed as, you know, '80s ladies, giggling while you're rollerblading quite terribly if you're like me. Then, you know, anyone that didn't think that you were crazy are soon gonna realize you are absolutely balls-out bonkers. Yeah, that is true, that is true. Well, I'm glad I inspired you. Talking about inspiring people, I just want— I wonder, obviously, you know, you're in the public eye as well, but is there anybody out there that you kind of look on their social media or you hear them talking on TV and you just think, wow, you are smashing it out out the park, I like what you've got to say and I think you're a good person to be around? No. I'm kidding. No, you're all rubbish. No one. No, I think there is, look, you know, there's a lot of amazing people out there doing a lot of amazing things obviously, but in my closer circle, you know, I would definitely mention Anna Whitehouse, aka Mother Pukka, and her campaigns, you know, with regards to equality at the workplace and, you know, Pay Gap and everything that she does around— I mean, she's done so much during the pandemic, and I love, you know, I talk about issues, but what I love about Anna is she actually does something about it. I'm always happy to support her. Um, I love Jo Lee from, uh, Pregnant and Screwed. I think that what she does as well for women is, is so brilliant, you know, and she's just come out with a new book book, and you know, she's great. And you know, and yeah, there's a lot, you know, I can, you know, my friend Rena O'Connor is like just the most talented person that I know, like the most talented person that I know, you know, she'll write a song, she'll just write lyrics, the most amazing funny lyrics in like 3 minutes. I don't understand like how anybody can do that, you know, I'm like so in awe of her. Yeah, there's a lot of people doing some really great stuff out there. And then again, there's a lot of people who aren't using their platforms for anything good, so— Wait, should I mention them as well? No, I'm kidding. Let's stick with the positivity. Yeah, let's stick with the positive. But that's a good reminder, you know, if you're following people that are just not using their social media in a way that's kind of enriching your life, ditch them! Get rid! Yeah, I love also, I can't remember her last name, but Harriet from Toby and Roo. She does great body positive, and I know a lot of people do stuff like that, and a lot of people are doing great stuff, but I really love Harriet. She, I just find what she does so genuine and actually so infectious. Like, she's just so full of life, and I love her posts. So if like body positivity is your thing, then I would totally go and follow her. She's great. Harriet Shearsmith? Yes, yes, and her page is called Toby and Roo. Yes, Toby and Roo, R-O-O. I've just seen a dish that she's just put on there with the most incredible baked feta and tomatoes, and I'm gonna have to cook that for today now. Yeah, and she does these food things that you're just like, I want that, and lots of desserts that are delicious. Yeah, I've not heard of her before. I think that's brilliant. That's another person that I can kind of check out. Do you know, it's funny because I think with social media, I've met a lot of amazing people through social media, and it's weird because I have met a lot of them in person. So either through my pajama party and confessions, people have come on the show as guests. That's how I met Reena years and years and years ago, and me and Reena are like really good friends now. First time I ever met her was when she came to my house. I've never met her before in my life, to be a guest guest on my pajama party. That is how we met, and we've stayed in touch for years and really good friends. And Harriet, I think I was following her, and I think I heard that she said she'd be in London the following day for something, so I just messaged her and I said, oh, I'd love to meet you, like, in person. And she was like, yeah, let's do it. And we met for a coffee in Camden. I mean, it was so random. Oh, I love that. Have you not had that with Ashton Kutcher? He's a fan. Hey, Asha, do you fancy a quick beer? Or like a socially distanced espresso martini on— without sitting down at a bench? Exactly. Not yet. I'm working on it. Not yet. Soon. It will happen. It will happen. We're just coming to the end, and I'm trying to squeeze in from my guests 3 tips on mental health and well-being. Oh, wow. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if I'm the best person to give tips, to be honest, about anything. You are a beast, my friend. Well, I don't know. I mean, I would— I mean, things that work for me, I guess, is just the tip that my daughter gave me and reminds me is just, you know, I think being ourselves is the first thing for good mental health because you just, just be yourself, you know. I think that's a really good place to start. Everybody else is faking. Yeah, yeah, I think like just not faking it takes a lot of pressure off, you know. We take a lot, we put ourselves under a lot of pressure trying to be something else or comparing ourselves to other people. So just be yourself. I think alone time is good. Now it's a bit hard, I'm struggling with that at the moment because we're in like this, you know, pressure cooker and everybody's on top of each other, but if you can find some alone time that's good. And I was going to say something naughty, but I'm not sure if we're allowed to say naughty stuff. Can you make it rhyme with something? Do the same way that I did fudge the fortune? No, let's just— you know what, whatever. Just, I don't know, chocolate? I don't know. My third one is an open one. Whatever makes you feel good. I don't know. Yeah, that reminds me, we didn't get to talk about, you know, your obsession with vibrators in any way, shape, or form, did we? Yeah. No, I know it's not an obsession, by the way. Again, it's like people say, well, why, why do you talk about it all the time? Because, you know, we've been— sorry, I mean appreciation. Okay, no, because the thing is, people have talked about self-pleasure and sex, you know, forever, but it's always really been from a male's perspective, in my opinion. Whereas, you know, I think, yeah, we gotta, we gotta kind of like balance it out a little bit. We gotta balance the conversation out a little bit and, and talk about self-pleasure from women's perspective until— yeah, I don't feel like we're there just yet. So that's kind of why. Plus, I do like, I do like a good vibrator. So yeah, better than a bad one. Um, well, I do. And unfortunately, we've got to kind of bring it to an end there. We have raced through the last hour, and I've not even managed to even open the book and look at the bits that I've kind of earmarked that I wanted to talk to you about. You're gonna have to write another book and then come into the studio and we'll do it all again. Have you got a book coming out? I do actually, it's called You Did What? and it's coming out in September and it's a collection of confessions, not just my confessions, confessions from around the world. Oh, I love that. Well, if people want to get Budged at 40. It's released on the 9th of March. There's going to be a link up on my website at hazelbutterfield.com, but they can find out more about you at toberlee.com. Yes, it was such a pleasure chatting to you today. I've loved it. I might kind of just replay it again and then get myself a bottle of wine now. Thank you so much for joining us here for Men's and Women's Radio Station. Good luck with Budged at 40. See, I managed not to swear. And I can't wait to hopefully speak to you in September when you release your next book. Amazing. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and you've been listening to Get Booked. And if you want to catch up on our previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on our SoundCloud. Thank you for listening.