Get Booked – Trevor Wood The Man On The Street 170521

You are listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. Today we have on the show Trevor Wood, the author of The Man on The street. And I can see why even Lee Child thinks this is an instant classic, a gritty and addictive thriller that takes an endearing and enlightening look at the person behind the homelessness, challenging perception— perceptions, yet with humor, humility, and lots of violence, focusing on mental illness and the abandonment of veterans who have slipped the only very recent net of awareness regarding the repercussions of PTSD and integration back into society after service. When Jimmy, the main character, an ex-veteran on the streets of Newcastle, witnesses a potential murder, his determination to maintain not my fight and keep a low profile, to keep out of trouble, plunges him into a whirlwind of anything and everything he normally aims to avoid at all costs. But is it for the better? You've got to read it to find out. Hi Trevor, how are you? Hi Hazel, I'm very well, thank you, particularly after that big build-up. Oh, you like it? It was great, yeah. Yeah, do you know what, I love the book. Thank you. I'm surprised, it's your first, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's already another one that's partially released and a third one on the way. There is, yeah. I left it very late to get started in this crime writing business, but I'm catching up quickly now. Well, I think there's definitely a lot of people out there that are quite happy you're doing so. Why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself? Sure, yeah. Well, at starters, the big number, I guess, is that I'm 62 now. So my debut crime novel was published when I was 61, so like I said, I was a very late starter. I was in the Royal Navy for 16 years and then retrained as a journalism— as a journalist and worked as a journalist in the northeast for about 7 or 8 years, and then did a bit of PR work. And then in between that and starting to write crime, I co-wrote about a dozen plays with a journalist friend of mine, which did pretty well, played all over the world really. But about 5 years ago, I decided to try and turn my hand to crime writing. I did a master's at the University of East Anglia, a part-time master's there, where The Man on the Street was developed. And thankfully, eventually managed to get an agent and a publishing deal, and it came out about 18 months ago, and it's done pretty well since. And it's helped keep you out of trouble during lockdown, hasn't it? It's been, I mean, it's an interesting world as a writer in lockdown because your life doesn't really change very much. I've for many years now just sat in my study working from home, beavering away really, and the only real change is that my wife has been working from home at the same time as well, which has slightly distracted me at times, but apart from that, it's situation normal really. I think it's quite interesting because during lockdown there have been a lot of seasoned writers that have thought, well, I can't do what I normally do to be able to create, or, you know, it's a lot harder for people that are possibly writing about mental health issues to— they're very quite protective of their mindset, so there's few people that have struggled to write, whereas other people who haven't written normally been able to embrace it a little bit more. I think it's kind of gone, been turned on its head a little bit. Yeah, a bit. I mean, I've always, I consider it a privilege to be able to write for a living really, so I treat it like any job really. I try and work from 9 till 5 every day, I sit down every day and write Monday to Friday, so I kind of see it as my job to sit down and write. I don't have the time, or the— I've started so late, I don't have the time to waste not writing, really. So I just try and keep that discipline going. That is very disciplined. I mean, I've been— I thought all I wanted about 18 months ago was some time off so I could finish my book, and I've probably done maybe about 3 hours worth in the last year. So we do need discipline, and there— I mean, there's— you've done quite a few crime writing courses that help people kind of not only with the writing skills but how to actually focus and get that discipline. And I suppose it is a little bit easier, possibly. There's a lot more debut authors I'm speaking to at the moment that are in their late 50s and 60s because they also have the time and the freedom to be able to do that as well, where there's a lot of us with children that have suddenly gone, wow, Oh yeah, it makes a huge difference. I mean, my daughter is 23 now, she's living in Vancouver, so, you know, she's not anywhere near as much a distraction as she was when I was writing the plays, for instance, when, you know, when she was still at primary school initially. Wow, and has she been able to come back to the UK? Yeah, we've been quite lucky really. We My wife and I managed to get over to Vancouver last year in August, kind of in the middle of the lockdowns where there was a slight break, if you like. Where we all thought, oh look, normality's come back! And also, quite fortunately, Canada had a very low rate of COVID as well, and they were letting people in as long as you had a direct relative there, so we managed to get in under that. Guys. We had to quarantine for a couple of weeks, but we spent a month out there, so we had 2 weeks quarantine, 2 weeks with, um, Becca. And then she managed to, um, get back to the UK, uh, for Christmas really. So she came in December and stayed for about a month. So it's, it's been better than it might have been, I think. Yeah, definitely. Well, I'm glad that that's worked out as well because there's— I mean, Canada, they smash everything out the park, don't they? They're just like, they're like a little island on their own and they're just going, we're going to do it our way, we're going to be fine. I'm such a huge fan. I've been there quite a lot. We, we, we've been very lucky really. My wife's an academic and many, many years ago she got a sabbatical to go out to Canada for about 4 and a half months. And because I was writing then, um, of course I can work from anywhere, um, so we took Becca then, then as a young, very 4-year-old, 5-year-old primary pupil really over to Canada. She went to school there for one term, and we loved it so much that we've been going back every couple of years ever since really. And now Becca has taken that and run with it really. She's doing a PhD there. She'll be there for the next 5 or 6 years, I guess. Oh wow, well, what a great place to be able to go and visit. And as you say that your wife is an academic, did that actually help with your inspiration for The Man on the Street? Because if you're an ex-Navy officer— I'm not going to give her the credit, Hazel, frankly. She gets enough credit. To be fair, the original idea for The Man on the Street came from chatting to Pam, and it was one of the things that came out of us just kind of throwing ideas around about the possibility of what would happen if a homeless man saw a murder, really. And I ran with it from there. But yeah, my wife and daughter are very helpful, they're my first readers when I've finished the book. I don't let them see it in the build-up, I've got other people who can help me along the way there, but before it goes to anybody else, when it's finished, they're the first two to read it. Oh, that's really good, I like that. I have a few people on the Twitter kind of community, which I think you're a part of as well, that do send me through various drafts so I can have a bit of a schnuffty beforehand, and I really enjoy that whole process and then seeing how it changes and it evolves as it finalises. Now, one of the main things I love about books and this show, just reading in general, is because even when it's fiction, you're getting an insight into something, you're learning about other people, and you're opening your mind. And although this is fiction, What you've done in The Man on the Street is you're opening up people's mind to homelessness and how they're perceived and disregarded by the community. And ironically, there's a lot of people who are ex-service people who have not been able to integrate back into society, and bizarrely, the people on the street are some of the most well-equipped people there. I mean, yes, there's a lot of different kind of people who are homeless and for many different kind of reasons, and unfortunately due to boredom or it being quite frankly grim on the street, yes, there's the drugs and the drink element, but you know, there's— these are people who've made certain choices and as I said before, people have kind of slipped the net. That's only really— PTSD has only really been taken seriously and action been taken in the last 10 years or so, I'd say. Yeah, there's— how to unravel all that, there's so many issues. Um, I think certainly with PTSD and certainly ex-servicemen, that they're to a large extent the least well-equipped people to deal with any kind of mental illness or anxiety because they're trained to ignore it. They're trained to power on through, you know, and, and get a grip and take responsibility for their own actions. So it's very hard to get them to accept any form of treatment, um, any therapy at all. So of course that just makes things worse. So, so that's the starting point, I guess. And I think you're right, people end up on the street for all kinds of reasons, quite often some kind of trauma in their life, which might not be— in the fictional case of Jimmy in the book, he was in the Falklands War and his ship was bombed, which started off his problems, but it can be as small a thing as losing your job or your marriage breaking up or, you know, losing your house because of those things. It can be almost anything, and it's Sometimes it's due to bad decisions, but underlying that, all these people are humans who have aspirations and, you know, who don't really want to be living on the streets, very few of them anyway. And I wanted to kind of bring that out in the book, and I wanted to show that they do have abilities and they do have integrity. You know, not all of them, there are bad apples in every community, and the same in the homeless community, but but there are a lot of people with a lot of ability that's kind of going to waste. And the other factor for a crime novel, I wanted to play on the invisibility as well, that, you know, people don't notice them. People walk past the homeless without even seeing them sitting there. And I quite like the idea of a homeless man who's starting to investigate something and nobody really pays any attention to him because he's invisible. So I like to play on that as well. He is invisible, but also you've got to remember the general public generally like to ignore or not give eye contact in case they're asked for money, or there's obviously the preconception that a lot of homeless people have mental health issues that people are scared of. And so people just want to avert their eyes. So, you know, you could have passed the same homeless person 20 times in one week and you won't be able to pick him out of a lineup. Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's, it's, you know, and you understand that there's a bit of self-protection there, and it's also, it's much easier to, to pretend they don't exist, that it's somebody else's problem. Um, so, you know, I don't blame people to a large extent, but with the book, I kind of just wanted to underline the humanity of these people and, and maybe hope that people who read it, next time they're out there, might stop and just have a chat. You know, you don't have to give them money. I mean, buy them a sandwich if you want, but just acknowledge them, just have a chat, wish them a good day, anything, you know. I am that person that actually does that. I was— I mean, I do it quite often, and if my kids ever need a new coat or something like that, you know, they go out in the coat, we go into the shop, and they'll go, "Right, cool, what do we do with our old coats?" I'll say, "Well, go give it to a homeless person so that they can use it to sit on," or something like that, and go, cool. And then, and then, you know, I encourage my kids that, you know, if they go— if there's a homeless person outside Starbucks or whatever and they're going in, just say, you know, you don't have to give somebody money, but just say, right, we're going in, I'm happy to get you something, what would you like? And they quite often do that and they'll get a cookie and things like that. And they're taught how to, how to do it safely and nicely and to just speak and actually give people eye contact. But I'm that one where when there's homeless people with a dog, I'm asking them what they want for their dog first because the majority— I have not come across, or it's very rarely I've come across a homeless person with a dog that they want something above the dog. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And the amount of times that, like, I spoke to this one lady outside Waterloo and she was— and I said, ah, um, 'Can I get you something?' She goes, 'Actually, my dog's been ill. Is there any chance you can just get like some plain water and like some really plain chicken? Because I'm just worried that he's got a really upset stomach.' I was like, 'Yeah, cool, I'm gonna go do that.' I've got no cash, but I can do it on credit card. I'm popping in Marks Spencer's. 'Do you have any food issues?' She's like, 'No, no, I eat everything.' So I came out with like a meal deal and then just some chicken and whatnot, and we just kind of sat there and had a fag and a bit of a chat. My boyfriend came out and went, We've just missed our train, I'm having a chat with the dog. It's the way it should be really, Hazel. I've just, I just discovered recently actually, kind of on that subject, I was doing a bit of research for the third book in the series and there's an organisation called Street Paws, P-A-W-S that is, and it's basically a group of vets who will treat homeless people's animals for free. And in Newcastle, I know they actually go out and kind of on an outreach program, if you like, they actually go out and approach people to see if their animals need any help. So, you know, support StreetPaws, people, that's what I'm saying. I'm gonna write that down because I've not heard of it, but, you know, I love the idea of it because— No, I hadn't, and I was kind of writing a vet character who was doing that for Jimmy and his dog. And I thought, I wonder if there's anybody out there. And I work for an organisation in Newcastle that supports the homeless— I volunteer, I should say— and I noticed them post a photo of these 3 vets who had been to the shelter that I work at, and I thought, oh wow, there is an organisation that does this. Well, if you think about it, I mean, dog is man's best friend anyway, or woman's best friend, But on the streets, it's a bit more of a reason to have responsibility, to kind of take care of yourself because somebody else is more reliant. But it's protection, it's company. I mean, it's the ultimate friendship, isn't it? Yeah, and it's— I hadn't really considered it that much before, but when I was developing the book, I don't generally like these kind of little writing techniques that people try and bring into you. You know, they give you little exercises sometimes when you do courses. And I kind of ignore them mostly, but I was given one on a course where we had to make a list of the things that your character takes with him when he leaves home and always carries with him. And of course, mine was homeless character. I was like, well, it's everything he has, he carries with him. But I started to make a list and a dog bowl appeared on my list. I was like, where did that come from? I didn't even know he had a dog. And that's where the character of Dog, who Jimmy is so disengaged with life that he hasn't even named properly, came from really, and he's become the main character I think. I'm under absolute instruction from everybody who reads the books that no harm can come to Dog basically, that's the only crime you can't show really in a crime book I think, you can't hurt dogs. There was a point in The Man on the Street when I wondered whether something had happened to Dog, and you quickly, I mean literally within a couple of paragraphs, Dog was absolutely fine. But I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, it's just not allowed. It's been made very clear to me. Yeah, that's not okay. I mean, kill off some of the main characters, but you know, Dog could have his own series. You can have the most brutal crimes imaginable and nobody blinks, but if you harm a hair on the dog's back, you're in big trouble. Yeah, completely. And Jimmy is going to stay as our lead character throughout the next two books, is he? Yeah, he kind of is, yeah. I mean, The Man on the Street is entirely Jimmy's story, really. So for people who haven't read it, there's a current crime story, if you like, that Jimmy gets involved in, but interspersed throughout the book are very short kind of flashback chapters where we discover how Jimmy has ended up in this position. So it probably goes through the last 30 years of his life really, but in very short snippets, so by the end of the book we know kind of how he ended up where he is. But he has two friends, if you like, two sidekicks almost, an alcoholic called Gadge who's in his late 60s and a very young drug addict called Dino, who's at the other end of the spectrum. He's in his early 20s. So in books 2 and 3, whilst Jimmy is still the main protagonist and kind of guides you through the crime story, we get the backstories of the other 2 characters. Oh, are you saying that Gadge doesn't succumb to his alcoholism and finally give up then? Have you just given that away? No, no plot spoilers. It might possibly happen, but He's in book 2, let's put it that way. Yay! I quite like Gadge, and Dino as well actually, but the thing is though, they are characters, and what is quite interesting is you don't always necessarily choose your friends on the streets as you would say in a book club or down the local pub. It's more to do with, you know, it's to do with circumstance, and you just kind of get on with it, and they're, you know, in any sort of normal world or corporate world or anything like that. They have nothing in common. Yeah, absolutely. And it's— I mean, it's like any group of people really, that friendships form and there are little cliques and that, you know. There are groups that are in-groups and there are groups that are kind of disregarded. And Jimmy has not really sought out much in the way of friendship. He very much has kept himself to himself, partially because he has hallucinations, he has flashbacks, which sometimes lead to violence. So he, he doesn't want to hurt anybody else, so he's kept away from people. But, but Gadge and Dino kind of gradually draw him in to their little friendship group, um, and it starts to bring himself out of his malaise, if you like, a little bit. Well, again, with him being an ex-veteran, that it comes hand in hand with the fact that you know, he's going to be strong, he is going to be reactive, he is going to be resourceful, which doesn't always fit in very well with what he's going to encounter on the streets. And the issue with the fear of the police, because, you know, there's— in the same way that the police can be absolutely fantastic, they do fear those who might be a little bit more resourceful than them. Yeah, well, it's a difficult relationship, I think, for the police and the homeless. You know, they're quite often the people who have to move them on when whoever it may be, the powers that be, decide that they want the streets cleaned up. So it's a problematic relationship, I think, which is kind of how I portray it in the book, really. Yeah, because they get tarred with the same brush as well, and quite often people that are living on the streets are ex-cons who, you know, for whatever reason that they've ended up inside, so it's quite quite an antagonistic relationship, isn't it? Which just, it doesn't help in situations like with Jimmy's where he does come across situations where he does end up dealing with the police. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a very, you know, it's a grey world, so, you know, there are a lot of good policemen, there are some dodgy policemen, in the same that there are in every profession, and I think the book reflects that. And I did like the fact that we're kind of drawing attention to what's happening to those that are living on the streets, and something that I've always struggled with, especially when we are up and about in London where, you know, the streets are full of homeless people, and especially the Women's and Men's Radio Station studio which is in Covent Garden, which we can't go to at the moment because it's right in the centre and, you know, we are still all closed off a little bit from the world, and I used to, I like to kind of pop and get my coffee and I'll get like a coffee for one of the many homeless people that's on the street. But you, they like to sleep in the day, don't they? Because that's when they're safe. And then be alert in the evening because that's when you've got the drunks and people who quite frankly like to think it's hilarious to pee on homeless people. Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's that thing of, do you wake them to ask whether you, they'd like something when they're trying to get some sleep that they need? And I've always struggled with that. Do you wake them to ask, or would you just take a punt and leave something on the side and let it go cold? Yeah, I think I'd take the latter option in that regard, I think. Really? Yeah, I mean, they sleep when they can. I mean, it's been very problematic lockdown really for the homeless. I mean, one of their safe havens is libraries, and of course all the libraries were closed completely. Some of them don't really like being confined into, you know, small rooms. They've kind of got used to living on the outside, and of course most of the homeless have been moved off the streets into various forms of accommodation. So it'll be interesting to see what comes out the other side, I think. I mean, the numbers are going to go through the roof, I suspect. I, as I think I mentioned, I volunteer at a Homeless Kitchen in Newcastle, and before lockdown we were feeding about 100 people every day, and now it's up to 200. Oh wow, so lockdown's hit people in so many different ways, and those people who were already teetering on the edge of vulnerability have just kind of been plunged even further. And yes, so I can imagine the, the, that the levels have gone up, but yet so has mental health issues. And a lot of people choose— and I know this sounds bizarre— choose to be on the streets to escape reality, to escape society. There's, I mean, an example of this is there's a guy near where I live in Hampton where he's always in the bus stop, and quite often when the kids are waiting for the bus with their parents, he'll do a bit of reading and do the homework with the kids, and everybody knows him. And I think he used to be an academic, and whenever it's cold, everyone likes to go and check in on him and make sure that he's got food and blankets and things like that. And they're like, you know, 'Why don't you come and stay with us and, you know, we'll help you, it's too cold out there.' And it's like, 'I'm on the streets for a reason. I did used to have a house. I don't want to be part of society. I don't like it. I'm not comfortable with it. I enjoy speaking to you and I really appreciate it. I love it that you buy me food every now and again, but I'm here because this is where I want to be. This is what I've chosen.' Yeah, there is that. I mean, I wouldn't want to overstate it, but there definitely is a a small proportion of people like that, but I wouldn't want to argue against providing decent— Oh no, no, I completely get that. You know, primarily the main problem is the lack of decent housing and affordable housing for people, really, but there is undoubtedly, there are some people who wouldn't take that up even if you offered it to them. But I think it's more to do with being part of the rat race, and that's what they're escaping, and the stresses of trying to work or be hounded and whatnot. So yeah, of course I'm sure people would love to have somewhere to stay, but there is— it's that escaping the worst parts of an integrated society. Yeah. But it's just understanding that, you know, sometimes it's best just to ask somebody. Yeah, indeed, absolutely. And I want to know, so One Way Street, it's already been published in ebook and audiobook back in October last year, and it's coming out in hardback next month. Now, how come there's quite a gap in between the two? It's been a funny time for all debut authors. I'm part of a large group of debut authors who all compare notes and swap advice and encouragement and all kinds of stuff. And it's been pretty bizarre for all of us. Publication dates have been moved around all over the place, different formats have changed because publishers have had to react to bookshops closing, things like that. I mean, The Man on the Street was originally published in March last year in hardback, which obviously is a very significant date, March 2020, really. So my book launch that was planned on the 17th of March was cancelled on the morning of the book launch. Oh no! Yeah, I know, I so nearly made it. We weren't officially in any kind of lockdown then, but Waterstones, where it was going to be held, made a kind of national decision that they wouldn't hold any more events in their bookshops, which filtered out to my Newcastle branch only at lunchtime on the day my launch was supposed to take place, so So we've had all kinds of things cancelled. In amongst that, my publishers decided— there's a bit of a thing in publishing called a soft launch where they kind of like to put something out quite quietly, so they put it out in ebook and sometimes in audiobook just to give it a couple of months for word of mouth to spread. So before the actual real book, if you like, hits the shops, there's a bit of a buzz about it and people are talking about it a little bit. So they tried that with The Man on the Street, uh, and it worked pretty well. They put that out in about, I think, October, November, uh, and the book came out in March. Um, although, as I say, the bookshops closed almost the day it came out. Uh, but because I had a bit of a buzz about it, it did okay. And then they decided to carry that on with book 2, so they They released the ebook and audiobook in October last year, and originally One Way Street was due to be published in March this year, but of course not long before it was due to be published, there was another lockdown brought in, so my publishers quite wisely, I think, said, 'Look, do you mind if we delay the publication until June when we hope the bookshops will be open?' And that looks to have worked, so One Way Street hardback is out on the 10th of June, when hopefully for the first time I might be able to do some events in actual bookshops. Imagine that! I mean, I'm glad you're not a believer of listening to the universe, otherwise the universe would really stick its toes up at you. It was, yeah, it was giving me a good kicking. I was starting to take it personally at one stage. It was, um, I had so many events lined up in various places, and actually some in Covent Garden, um, There's a Waterstones there, I think, and I was doing something at Goldsboro Books as well, and they just all like dominoes just knocked each other down one by one by one. I think I remember that the last remaining event I had was at a school. A teacher had approached me at an event I did before lockdown and said, 'Would you come and talk to the pupils?' And I was like, 'Yeah,' and it— that was the last thing I had left And about 3 days before I was due to do that, they closed the schools as well, and I just thought, this is just following me around now, it's just me. It's all your fault. Don't worry, I've got over that. I don't know, I'm not taking it personally anymore, it's got a bit bigger than that. But yeah, it was, it was a strange year, I think. And I obviously thought the book would disappear and get buried, and I've been so lucky that, that it got a bit of a following and some great support from some really big writers as helped in that. But you know what though, there's so many people that were crying out for something to do who were on furlough or just needed some distraction, so I mean reading has gone through the roof, it's the thing. I mean if you want to, people wanted to learn about something or they wanted to just have something other than reality. It has, yeah, it's been a, it's been a An interesting year for writers, I think. I mean, book sales have by and large held pretty steady, I think, which is amazing given the circumstances, but I think that's swayed a bit by the fact that people have— most readers have kind of gone to the writers that they know and love and are reading them again and buying their books, so it's been quite hard for debut writers to make an impact, but but we have kind of increased our reach, if you like. I would have done— I'm based in Newcastle, which obviously is about as far away from everywhere else in the UK, certainly in England, that you can get. So I would have had a lot of events in the Northeast and one or two in London, probably, but not really anywhere else in the country. But, but because of the, the joys of Zoom and virtual panels, I've been speaking to people all over the country, which, which wouldn't have happened which has been great in many ways. Well, actually, yes, because I was predominantly doing all of my interviews in the studio for Get Booked, and people coming in, and I love that, it's face-to-face, you can read people's reactions, the rapport can be so quite different, and you've got your producer on hand to sort everything out. But now I'm just like, yeah, you free on Zoom? And, you know, within seconds you're connected, and it is easier. There's I do a lot of interviews with people where it's not fiction, it's to do with eating disorders and bereavement and things like that, and those are the books I've struggled, really struggled with via doing interviews via Zoom, because you really want to read what's happening, you want to read it on their faces, or sometimes, yes, a book's fiction, but it's, you know, it's 99% based on reality, and being able to read people's responses, I mean, I've interviewed people where I can see that they're struggling talking about a particular topic, second, it's just taken over them. And I don't have that on Zoom, you can't sense it as much. So I've definitely struggled with that, but you know, it gives with one hand and takes with the other. Indeed, yeah, I've had a fascinating year. I somehow inadvertently ended up on the the Women's Institute visiting speakers kind of list. So, oh wow, how was that? So quite often I, I get invitations from the Women's Institute all over the country to say, will you do a Zoom chat with our group in Plymouth or Stoke-on-Trent or wherever? Um, which has been great fun. I've really enjoyed doing it. And, you know, I'm talking to the people in places that I would never have ever been to, doing a book tour for instance or anything like that. It has opened things up, especially for the debut writers as well, just to be able to broaden their reach a little bit. Back a couple of years ago when people said they wanted to do things on Zoom, "Oh no, it's not the way we do things," "I want to work from home," "No, we're just not set up, we haven't got the IT infrastructure," within a week everybody seemed to be able to have the infrastructure in place. It just shows how— Honestly, it pays all right. I'm the biggest technophobe you could possibly meet, honestly. I don't even have a smartphone, that's, that's how far that goes. But what— I know, I know, I'm, I'm gonna have to get one because you can't even order a pint these days in the bars, which I discovered the other day. I mean, it did mean I got my wife to pay for everything, which was great, but, but yeah, I thought next time I go out on my own, I'm in trouble here. Um, but yeah, I've, I've now got a Zoom Pro account. I run webinars for the Northern Crime Syndicate and stuff, and if you'd have told me I'd be doing that 18 months ago, I'd have— it would just been a joke, because— but now I'm pretty adept at this kind of thing. Nailed it. It's going to be interesting to see how much it continues. I think, I mean, I think there is a bit, you know, I think there's a bit of Zoom apathy entering the situation at the moment, but It has opened up things, and I think in the— certainly in the book world, in the writer world, they'll probably continue to do virtual events because it's a great way to reach people who can't go to the Harrogate Crime Festival or to Bloody Scotland or wherever the crime festivals might be, but they can switch their computer on. Yeah, even though we do like to sometimes have the excuse to get out, getting people together is just so much easier, which actually we had this morning as well because You've been nominated to be part of the Harrogate Theakston Crime Awards. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about that? I'm sorry, are you allowed? Yeah, yeah, no, it was embargoed until this morning. It's been a bizarre couple of weeks. I mean, first of all, I was shortlisted for the Crimefest Debut Crime Novel of the Year Award And I've just done an interview this morning with the other candidates, which includes Richard Osman, which is kind of fascinating because you're going, oh, it's Richard from Pointless rather than Richard the crime writer. But he was very engaging and very charming, and we had good fun. And then before I actually recorded that this morning, the Thigston Crime Festival announced their longlist for the crime novel of the year— not the debut crime novel, but the crime novel of the year— and I was on that list as well. And I'm amongst, you know, Ian Rankin and Chris Whittaker, which is— we've been at the end. Yeah, yes, Chris. I mean, I'm on the list, but if Chris Whittaker doesn't win, it's a travesty, frankly. But, um, yeah, Ellie Griffiths, uh, Steve Cavanagh, just, just all the big crime names. And, and I'm so— yeah, I'm just kind of in a state of shock, really. I think it is deserved, the book is brilliant. I mean, the next book ideally I want it on audiobook because I'm assuming it's going to be narrated in a Geordie accent. My narrator is wonderful and I was so very lucky. As I think I mentioned, I co-wrote about a dozen plays before I started to try and become a crime writer and one of the actors in one of my plays was the guy they chose to do the audiobooks, a lovely actor called Dave Nellist, and I wasn't involved in the decision at all. They literally sent me an audio link and said, 'We think we found the guy to read your books, what do you think?' And I didn't even listen to it, I just saw his name on there and I went, 'Yeah, Dave will be great.' Oh, I love that. You know, he's not only a friend but he's a born and bred Geordie, he's a brilliant actor, Done a ton of work in the West End, things like Billy Elliot and War Horse. And also there's a— I think it's a lovely connection, it's quite small, but for those fans of Sherlock Holmes, the Benedict Cumberbatch TV version, Dave plays the guy who introduces John Watson to Sherlock Holmes in the very first episode. And has made a bit— he's made a bit of a kind of— I don't know what it is, um, he's become kind of semi-famous because of that. So he gets invited to all the Sherlock conventions, uh, and people send him portraits of his character and stuff like that. So he's got a crime connection as well, so it was perfect for me. And he narrates the books absolutely beautifully. I'm, I'm just— it's just lovely to be working with somebody you know. And I get the extra joy that quite a lot of writers don't really get to know much about their audiobook and, you know, don't get any feedback, but I get Dave texting me messages going, "Is this right about this?" and "How do you pronounce this?" and "Have I got this right about what the motivation is for this guy?" So I get a bit more involvement than I would otherwise, I think. Oh, I love that, because the thing is the Geordie accent is the one I've never been able to master, so, you know, I'm hoping— Tell me about it, I've lived it. I've lived in Newcastle for 30 years and I'm banned from even attempting to say it. My wife is a Geordie, my daughter was born here, and they won't let me go anywhere near it. And they're probably right, I think. Yeah, maybe. Well, I do— when you were kind of writing certain things, especially in the case of Dino, and I was trying to read it kind of phonetically so I could kind of get the accent, and there's still— the only thing I can say is 'kawasai,' and it's still not very good. So I need to do it on audio, but the next one— One of the things I mean, one of the things I'm most pleased about, I think, about the book, amongst many, is that I didn't want to ignore the accent. You can't set a book in Newcastle and not have people dropping in Geordie now and again, because it makes no sense really. And I kind of kept it to one or two characters really, but I'm so chuffed that the Geordie nation has taken it to their heart, and I haven't had one person say you've you've got it wrong. So I might not be able to speak it, but I think I can write it. Well, there you go. You have, you've nailed it. I've really liked the book, and actually, especially, I read here, there, and everywhere. We can't, you know, I'm one of those people that kind of walks down the street or just sits on a bench and starts reading, and just to get away from the kids predominantly. But, and people know that I read 2 or 3 books a week, like, "Oh right, what are you reading next?" and there's a lot of people that have gone, "Ah, yeah, I really feel like I want to read that one." It feels— it's something where it's connecting with humanity, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, so there's quite a few people who I know have popped onto Amazon to try and get hold of that one. And yeah, I've loved it. I definitely— it's one of those ones as well. I don't know if you've read the Jessica Daniel novels, It's by Kerry Wilkinson, and he actually now lives out in the woods somewhere in Canada. He originally self-published because nobody wanted to touch him with a barge pole, and he's like 25 books in now, and after the third book publishers were falling over themselves. He sold millions and millions, and now he just sits in his wood cabin by the lake popping these books out and going, "Haha." He does, he's got 2 or 3 different kinds of books. Some of them are standalones, but there's one is Jessica Daniels where she's a female policewoman in Manchester. And it's the longest relationship I've ever had. I'm like, I'm on book 11 or 12 now. And I think Jimmy's going to be the same where you kind of want to care about what happens to him and you get used to him and you, you know, Jimmy, don't do that. You're kind of self-destructive. Sabotaging again, and I hope that for him. You, um, yeah, might be tricky, uh, Hazel. I think I've committed to writing 3. Um, I originally assumed it was going to be a standalone book. I, because I wanted the authenticity, I didn't want to continue with a homeless man tripping over bodies and solving murders. It kind of becomes a bit you know, it kind of defeats the object really. It makes it less real. I was eventually convinced that I could turn that into a 3-book series, and I could see ways of doing that, but I think that might be it. I think it's a stretch to have your homeless guy continually solving crimes the police aren't interested in or can't solve. Yeah, I get that, because otherwise he's not going to be— he's not going to be invisible anymore either. Yeah, it's going to be super sweet. Kind of, you know, I— for me, the strength of the books is the realism, and, and if I step aside from that, I kind of almost self-sabotage, I think. So I'm just on the verge of delivering the third book to my publisher. They've already seen it once, and I'm just tidying it up a little bit, so that's pretty much done. And then we've agreed between us that the fourth book I write will will be a standalone book, completely different characters. So I'm delighted that you want to read more Jimmy, but you might not get 11 books, let's put it that way. No, fair enough. I can see that that probably wouldn't work, but it's when you fall in love with a character and you kind of feel like you've lost somebody when you know it's the end, it's a little bit of like— the most important thing for me, it's interesting how many people assume that the plot is everything in crime novels, and I really don't see that at all. I mean, it'd be interesting to know how many of Kerry Wilkinson's plots you could remember from the books. I suspect not that many of them. It's generally— No, but I know what's happened, I know, you know, I know what's happened to the actual person. Yeah, you know about the relationships, and I'm extremely confident that it's the characters that carry the stories, and if you create great characters. People, you know, if the plot's absurd, then yeah, you won't get away with it, but most people care about the characters and they follow them. I love Michael Connelly's books, for instance, and I, you know, could tell you a lot about Harry Bosch, but I couldn't tell you any of the plots of the books I've read, I don't think. Well, it depends. I don't know if you're like me, I don't know how much you read, but there's only so much we can enjoy it, and then you go out— you do, you read a lot. Writers have to. If writers aren't reading a lot, there's something wrong, I think. You have to, you have to, you have to immerse yourself in it, I think. I mean, I do primarily read crime, but lockdown was kind of— I decided I needed to, you know, lighten up a little bit and read other things. So I read quite a few kind of rom-commy books, read The Flatshare by Beth O'Leary, which is terrifically lovely book. Oh, is it? Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, it's lovely. I mean, I have a slight interest in that she shares a publisher with me, so I'm, you know, we're on the same team, if you like. But it's a fun— I mean, it's been a hugely successful book, but it's, it's lovely. But you've, you've got to— writers have to read. It's a, it's a requirement, I think. Um, you know, you've got to suss out the competition as well. Of course. And also make sure that you're not doing something that somebody else is doing, you know, try and keep it fresh and different. But that's the thing, isn't it, when you write, when you read a lot, sometimes you just, it's a bit like the people who watch Friends all the time, they end up coming out with the same lines and they kind of forget where they come from. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, that is an issue I think. And I think it's tricky, I mean I don't write police procedural books for that reason. I think it's really hard to differentiate one from another, really. Well, yeah, I mean, there are— I'm very cautious about when I do these chats that get booked because I have to make sure that the books vary enough between each interview so that, you know, you differentiate them. Well, there aren't many homeless protagonists out there, Hazel, so I think you're all All right with me. You don't live where I live. Something that I do like to ask all of the guests here on Get Booked, which I hope is okay with you, is who in the public eye at the moment do you think is somebody to watch as being a bit of a positive force? There's a lot of people out there on social media that just like gassing off for the sake of it, and they like the sound of their own voice. Piers Morgan, but I didn't say that really. But is there anybody out there that you love and just think are brilliant and you like what they've got to say? God, if you'd ask me the ones that I don't like, I could have given you a long list. Yeah, that's easy though, isn't it? Positive influences, I'll tell you who I I do like, and I'm going to really struggle to remember her full name, but you might know it, it's the American female politician who we'll call AOC for short. And I'll— I'm getting old, Hazel, you know, and bringing names out of nowhere is tricky, but if you give me time, I will come up with it. But she seems to be a very bright It's Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Yeah, she's, uh, I think she's a force for good, um, so keep an eye on her, I think. But that's the thing, isn't it? Because sometimes we just need— it can be, you know, quite transitional, and people can— well, sorry, it can be quite evolutionary that the, the people that we follow, we kind of forget, or there's somebody that's coming into the public eye that's got something even better to say. And I like to give our listeners somebody else to look out for and to kind of enrich our lives rather than watching people say how good their avocado looked on a piece of toast. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I'm quite political, and she seems to me to be a beacon of hope in an otherwise bleak outlook. I think I wish there was a British equivalent, but I can't really see one at the moment. She's like, she's about 33, isn't she? 32, 33? Yeah, yeah, she was very young, early 30s, very bright. Yeah, keep an eye. Yeah, will do. And something else as well, obviously for you it might have been slightly different in lockdown in that you did manage to go away a bit and, you know, spin out a couple of books as well, but We like to ask, what did you do in lockdown? Well, you know, a couple of birds. I'll tell you what I did do actually, and it was really useful for me in the work as well, that because Pam was working from home as well, we would, and certainly in the first lockdown primarily, we would just go out for walks because it was one of the few things you could actually do really, and we would just head off, and Newcastle is quite a small city, And I thought I knew, you know, most of it quite well, and I did a lot of wandering around for the first book, but wandering around during the lockdown, I found all kinds of little bits of it that I'd not come across before, and quite a few of them are going to end up featuring certainly in book 3. I found a— there's a tiny little park not far from my house really that I'd kind of walked past a couple of times It's kind of open grassy area, not really a park at all, just a bit of grass really. And I had no idea that all the paving stones were old gravestones. I'd not noticed ever. Because you don't have chance, you don't have time to actually engage with what's around you. Yeah, exactly, exactly that. And so we were, you know, walking around kind of looking at the area and it was like, oh my God, look at all these gravestones. And it turns out to have been a cemetery like 120 years ago. That they used for non-conformists. They buried people who, who didn't ascribe to any of the kind of religious, um, organizations going around at the time. And now all the gravestones are paving stones in the park, right? So people are just walking over these dead people. Yeah, exactly. I like literally walking over people's graves. And I, uh, and that's now the opening scene in my third book, is set in that, in that place, because it just seems so Atmospheric. And the book's called Dead End Street as well, so it seems very appropriate. Yeah, it does, doesn't it? You'll notice that the word street is— I'm contractually obliged, I think, to put it in the titles these days. Yeah, I've noticed that. I quite like it though. I think I would like the— can you send me over the audiobook for the second one? Because I'd like to kind of walk around the streets and kind of Perfect My Geordie. I'll see if my publishers can zap you a copy. Oh, that'd be brilliant because I've just— I got a bit bored of listening to music when I was pounding the streets and it's just— yes, we've all been walking a lot more in lockdown, but it did get a little bit monotonous. It was another exercise walk and I've loved listening to audiobooks along the way because it kind of feels like you've got somebody with you, and we weren't allowed to walk with somebody at one point unless they were your kids, and I don't want to speak to my kids, I live with them. I mean, it's a bit macabre, and it maybe started off from seeing that little park, but I quite often ended up in graveyards wandering around. It's useful for character names as well. Oh wow, yeah, a little bit. There might be some, uh, have there been some gems out there? I bet there's Bringing back some of the older names. It's absolutely fascinating what you find. I've got a graveyard at the end of my street which is, I mean, it's not derelict but it looks semi-derelict. At some point they were worried about, about high winds and stuff and they stood half the gravestones down on the floor, so there's a lot of gravestones, it looks like a typhoon has blown through it. So it kind of seems like the kind of place you'd set a horror movie or something, it almost looks overgrown. And I wandered around there, and there are French diplomats and Russians and all kinds of people buried there that you really wouldn't expect in a city centre graveyard in Newcastle. So that was fascinating. Do you know what, I've got— I've never been to Newcastle and I really want to go. Hazel, get up here, it's amazing, seriously. I know, I've been getting— whenever I say that to somebody, like, you've got to get there, I'm like, I will as soon as I can. Can now, although it's a little bit of a trek. I mean, I never— I was in my 30s before I came here, and I literally only came here because I met and married a Geordie who said, well, I'm not coming to Portsmouth, which is where I was living at the time. Fair play. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. You know, she looked at Portsmouth and I looked at Newcastle and I went, yep, okay, that's right. So I moved up here and fell in love with the city within a like 10 minutes, and I've never lost that really. It's a, it's a wonderful place to live. Oh, although I should say I try and keep that a secret because, you know, we've got a lot of space and the beaches are empty and it's all beautiful. Well, I was going to say that you don't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry. And I was just about to say there's some fantastic beaches on there. Oh man, I was a couple of weeks ago, I mean, once they gave us a little bit of freedom, we, we had a long-standing Airbnb booking just only about 30 minutes up the road from Newcastle, a place called Warkworth. All the Northumberland beaches are stunning, and the weather was beautiful, and we're wandering along beaches that are empty in glorious sunshine. It's a remarkable place to live. Wow. Yeah, well, I'm on it. I'm all over it. Obviously, I think everybody— I mean, you might not get that, you might not get that from the books, but it's, it's probably nicer than it's portrayed in the books. Well, you are focusing on the homeless side and all the— I mean, if people want to possibly have a whistle-stop tour of all the underground subways and, you know, where you can go and possibly help out the homeless, then your book's the place. It's a great tour guide for that, isn't it? Yeah, and there's a few parks get a mention, and yeah, I kind of saw it as a love letter to the city, but I'm not sure the city would agree with that necessarily. Really? I mean, I think it must have been cathartic because I'm sure you've come across people in your career, both journalism and in the Navy, where you've thought, I really want to write about this and I really want to humanize what goes on. That must, that must have been quite cathartic. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's a, there's a lot of stuff in there. You know, there's a lot of stuff. I mean, obviously the book's not about me at all, but I was in the Navy during the Falklands War. I didn't go down to the Falklands, but I had a lot of friends who did. So some of that stuff comes out in the book. And, and a lot of my friends were, I mean, not damaged by it, but certainly affected by, by serving then. I think when you joined, if you joined the Navy when I did in 1978, the last thing you were expecting was to be involved in a war. I mean, there hadn't been anything for 30 years, apart from the Cod War maybe, which was a really small little dispute over fishing. But, but nobody joined the Royal Navy with a view to doing any fighting, you know, it wasn't even on the agenda at all. And it was a major shock, I think, to a lot of young guys in the early '80s when suddenly they were, they were going to war basically. They didn't expect it. I mean, I'm not saying they weren't prepared for it, but psych— but I think physically and, you know, technically they were prepared for it, but, but mentally not so sure. And, and the emergence of actually understanding more mental health issues. I mean, I say it was in the last 10 years in regards to PTSD, but really the last 2 or 3 years is when we've actually taken note and actually worked on it for everybody, and especially with the Royals' involvement and there are still some people out there that, you know, a little bit like Jimmy, you know, "I'm a bloke, I don't need to talk about my problems." You just stiff up your lip and you get on with it. It's particularly a British thing as well, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, that pretty much sums it up. A British serviceman is mostly going to think like that, I think. But it's getting better, I think. Yes, and hopefully it will keep on doing so, so that people don't have, you know, the people are actually working the hardest for the country don't end up actually on the streets of the country. But I must say it's at least given you a fantastic topic and something to sink your teeth into in terms of the series with— is it a series? It is a series, isn't it? Trilogy, we'll call it trilogy. Call it a trilogy, yeah, I like that word, it's nice. Yeah, yeah, good. So yeah, absolutely love Mum on the Street, recommend it to absolutely absolutely everybody get involved and just kind of, you know, if you see somebody on the street, have a bit of eye contact, and if you're not so sure what they want, ask them, you know. Yeah, perfect, the perfect way to deal with it. And just to point out to our listeners that they can go on to trevorwoodauthor.co.uk, and I said trevor, it's like my northern accent's kind of going all over the place. I've been in London for 20 years, but, you know, Huddersfield born and bred. And sometimes, especially when I'm speaking to people who are in the North, my accent goes everywhere and it's like having 3 or 4 different presenters in the studio. But yeah, trevorwoodauthor.co.uk, go and find out all about it. You can go and pick up the book in Waterstones, Amazon, here, there, and everywhere. And hopefully you'll be actually in the bookstores and doing signings when the next book comes out. That would be lovely, first time. Yes, bring it on. Thank you so much for joining us here on Get Booked for Men's and Women's Radio Station, and maybe in the future when the third one comes out, we'll maybe get you in the studio in Covent Garden when you're doing the rounds around the bookshops. That would be lovely, Hazel, be a delight. Cannot wait, cannot wait. Enjoy the rest of your day and good luck with the Harrogate Crime Award. Thank you, I'll need it, I think. I'm up against some pretty big hitters there. Thank you very much. Oh, it's a pleasure, lovely to talk to you.