Get Booked with Hazel Butterfield – Evan Baldock, Bang Bang You’re Dead

Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield, and this is Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station, a show all about books and their incredible ways to help support good emotional well-being and enrich our minds. Books can distract, entertain, enlighten, and especially in 2020, provide us something to get involved with and pass the time. And today joining me in the studio is the author of Bang Bang You're Dead, Evan Boldock. Now, this is a book that tests your perception on morality. Murder is bad, we get that. Vigilantism, it's dangerous, and the police are there to protect us, that is their role. It's not ours to take matters into our own hands, but oh, how nice it is to imagine if we could get our hands on the person that mugged our grandma and punched her in the face, or the addict that threatened our child with an infected needle for their phone, or maybe even, you know, the drug dealer that stops us from feeling safe in our own towns or even on our own street. It's an emotive subject, especially with politics and policing cutbacks and unfathomable laws that protect these people from being brought to justice, and it just gets in the way. Now, Evan Bolduc, an ex-policeman, has really brought this to the fore with Bang Bang You're Dead in a kind of cutesy murderous grandma kind of way. So let's introduce you to Evan. Hi, thank you for joining us. Hi, nice to finally meet you. Yes, indeed, although in our remote studio we're all Covid-proof and I'm just praying— I've been going through that situation for the last week or so where I have a cough cough, and it is fine. This is not COVID. I even had a test, um, but I'm just worried that I might suddenly start getting a coughing fit. So, you know, this— everybody's got the— got colds at the moment as well, and everyone's really scared and going, it's not COVID. I know, I know. I actually had a— I was in the Peak District for a week walking last week, and when I got home, uh, something— you know the NHS COVID app? Yes, NHS Trace, Track and Trace app. I had a little red dot at the top of my screen and I scrolled down and it was NHS, you know, warning you've been in a venue where the COVID-19's turned up, and I pressed on it and it disappeared, the message disappeared, and I cannot get the message anywhere now. So, but I'm sure it's fine. Well, have you, I mean, have you been well over the last 7 or 8 months. Absolutely fine, yeah. Yeah, it's a tough one, and we, you know, as we record this, we are all going into higher tiers, but you know what, what we want is to tell all our listeners about incredible books that they can read to keep them indoors, to keep them safe, and to keep them entertained, right? Yeah, absolutely. Now, Bang Bang You're Dead, this is one of those ones where I think I actually said to you on Twitter a few weeks back, the more I discussed it with my friends, in the pub, it was socially distanced, they were like, "Oh, it's just, it's a fantastic idea," and a friend of mine who's a director, she wants to make it into a film, and I was just, and I'm sure you're going to get so many people who just think this is a great idea, because if you want to tell our listeners a little bit about Bang Bang You're Dead and the Delicious Gloria. Well, Bang Bang You're Dead, it's a story that was actually given to me by the mother of a fairly famous person, and she said to me that, why does no one write a story about someone like me? At the time she was in her late 60s and she lived in a flat in St Giles in London, very close to Charing Cross Road, across the road from Soho. And she was utterly fed up with what was going on in the area. She couldn't go out at some— on some nights because there would be people in doorways gathering, there would be groups of drug users gathering to wait for a dealer and that. And she felt uneasy and unhappy about what was happening in the streets around where she lived. And she said, why does no one ever write a story about a woman my age doing something about this problem. Not that she ever would do anything about it, but she wanted to read, probably to make her feel better, about someone actually bothering and going out and doing something about it, literally turning, turning into a vigilante, an elderly vigilante. The story is about a lady called Gloria Jones, who is based on the lady who gave me the idea. Now it's interesting because there were so many twists and turns in Bang Bang You're Dead, and I want to be very careful to make sure that nobody actually— I don't give away some of the crucial elements. And there was a lot of support for this vigilante kind of behaviour, which is interesting. And the only thing is, what I didn't know what was going to come up is whether The problem with— I mean, obviously being a vigilante, it's illegal. You're not allowed to take the law into your own hands. However, the main problem is, is that— and you've seen them on, you know, the Netflix program Criminal, where people go out to kind of— it's with some kind of retribution in mind, and they get the wrong person and they ruin people's lives, or they accuse somebody falsely and and that person then ends up being attacked or takes their own life and things like that. And this is what we need to— we need to draw to people's attention that it's not that the police are saying, "You can't do this, this is our job." It's because they're trained to actually recognise what is right and what is wrong, and humans do make mistakes. They do, they do. And this book, it's not— obviously it's not a fun subject, but it's a slightly tongue-in-cheek book. Because it's, it's written from the— it's written from the vigilante's viewpoint rather than a police investigation viewpoint. It's written from the perpetrator's mindset and what's happened in their life and what's brought them to where, to where they've reacted. But obviously murder, murder is murder, and murder is wrong and can't be just swept under the carpet. But yeah, obviously it's not a real life thing, it's a story. It is a story, and there are some pretty gruesome scenes in it, but because it's, you know, it's Gloria, and we're like, oh honey, you're just trying your best. And the thing is, it is society does have issues with the fact that, you know, we can't always have what we want, things don't always go the way we want, you know, whether it's, you know, somebody having enough money to get the best solicitor, or there are so many loopholes and hoops that the police have to kind of go through, and if they do something slightly the wrong way, I still don't get this, but, you know, if the police don't even read them their rights at the right time, it's an unlawful arrest. When I see this on TV, and everything that goes after that unlawful arrest is, um, not admissible. Who invented this? It just seems ridiculous. I, I'm sorry, I'm not— I, I, as an ex-police officer, don't get me started on that. No, I can imagine. Some of the cases that we've seen thrown out of court. You know, you've supplied witnesses, you've supplied video evidence, you supply everything you need, and a technicality will be brought up and the case is thrown out. And I just— I don't— this is what I mean about frustrating. So it was enjoyable writing a book about someone who, who, um, was a little old lady and, um, people weren't really looking at her as the likely suspect for much of the book. So that was quite fun. Well, but that is it though, isn't it? I think it'd be a lot different if it was a really big stocky bloke who just wanted to get his own back. It's, it's all to do with context. It is. And there are lots and lots of books about vigilantes. There's even books about male— when you think of things like Harry Brown, you know, you're thinking of an elderly male vigilante. As far as I'm aware, this is the first book ever written in the UK about an elderly female vigilante. There are even— I'm thinking of things like Lara Croft, etc. And there are There was, there was an article in The Guardian about, um, a month ago, and it was about how— why are there— I think the article said something like, why is a female vigilante never an elderly lady with clumpy shoes? It's always, um, a 20s— in her 20s or 30s, very attractive, ripped body, etc. It's always in a film, that's always the female vigilante role, it's never ever someone like Gloria. But I think that's part of the reason that she was successful as well, because she was more approachable, more unassuming, that, and even when, I mean, I'm pretty certain I can, well, I'm going to say it anyway, there are certain reasons why people were more happy to support her because of how she appeared. It's not like, you know, she could have defended herself, and sometimes people like it when the underdog finds a way to defend themselves. Absolutely. I think this— that, that's— you've hit the nail on the head there. It's the underdog and the, uh, the unlikely heroine, or anti-heroine, I suppose, um, coming good against all the odds. I think, I think people have enjoyed that. People that have read the book So many people have said to me, will there be a sequel? Are you doing a sequel? And I've recently said yes on Twitter. There will be a sequel. I'm going to start writing it in a couple of weeks. She wants— she's going to go on— well, well, I don't know what she's going to do. I don't know whether it's going to be the same sort of role, but she will be coming back, right? I mean, the interesting thing that I really got involved with, I mean, there was some incredibly violent things that she, she did, and I was still rooting for her even though I'm not a huge fan of violence. Because, you know, it's the— I mean, we are a nation of, you know, the— our journalism is full of moral panic, you know. It's hearing about the 80-odd-year-old that got kicked in the face, and, and you know what, there's so much fear. I mean, I'm quite a strong, confident, and independent person, but there's not a chance I would feel safe going past certain scenarios, certain areas. And anybody that makes you feel like Joe Public is getting the control back again, that's where, you know, the mental well-being factor comes in. It's one of those books where I'm pretty certain that there are so many different kinds and styles and ages of readers that will go, "Yeah, she may have shot him in the eye. However, I just feel a little bit of strength in that kind of concept." Because— and then we are not supporting violence in any way, shape, or form. What I'm saying is, is that sometimes people like it when they feel like somebody gets what they deserve in a world where we feel as if we are constantly being scared by one thing or another, whether it's terrorism or mindless violence that, you know, from a single person that just doesn't care about society. And, you know, that is where a lot of anxiety comes from. It is. I think a lot of people love reading about Gloria's exploits because it's a little bit of escapism, Obviously, like most books you have to read, you have to suspend your belief a little bit. And I think that people love the fact that this is someone doing something, although we all hate to admit it to ourselves, that I would like to do, but I haven't got the guts. I honestly think that a lot of people feel that way. In fact, people have actually said that on Twitter and in reviews, that there's a little bit of Gloria in all of us. One reviewer wrote, there's a little bit of Gloria in all of us, although we all hate to admit it. Now interestingly, I'm going to tell a story of something that happened when I was about 18, 19. I was dating a guy, and his stepdad had been in prison for 10 years. And when he came out, he was very good with DIY. And he offered to help my mum do some DIY around the house. And my mum said, well, I'm not very comfortable about having somebody in the house who's an ex-convict who was in for 10 years, Hazel. That's obviously something extremely serious. And I said to her, listen, this is why he was inside. Um, a man did something quite horrific to his daughter that resulted in her dying, and he went out and basically did very similar back to him, and the guy unfortunately did die. And I said, and he didn't hide, he put his hands up and said, yes, I did this, and he got 10 years for it because what he did was wrong. And my mum kind of went, yeah, I think I'm going to be all right with him coming in to do the DIY, it's fine. And it's interesting, isn't it, the perception Yeah, it's all about perception as well. And, and the fact that, uh, he carried out something that he thought was dreadful because it had happened to his daughter and then did it to someone else. But I, I think you won't find many people who would be unwilling to have him in their house doing some work after that. I think most people would be like your mum and would think, yes, he did something bad, but there was a reason for it. There's what Gloria does. She does something really bad. Actually, I'll tell you, I was in, um, as I say, in the Peaks last week. Uh, a friend of mine is currently reading the book. He's about three-quarters of the way through. He was absolutely fine with Gloria in the first couple of instances. You'll know what I'm talking about. Yeah. But once it moves on and her mind changes and her mindset changes he's actually now become quite anti— not anti-Gloria, but he's not overly happy with her. And I've had 2 or 3 people that are sort of mixed emotions about how she, how she responds. Well, that's why I said it tests your perceptions of morality. And I know exactly what your friend was meaning, because there's doing something once in anger, then there's going and taking the law into your own hands kind of willy-nilly. But also, it is— I'm sure the power is addictive. Again, another reason why vigilantism is— it is wrong. It is— it's— yeah, well, it is addictive. I mean, the— it is such a toughie, but, you know, I bet you this is very divisive. The people that have read this book, and I'd love to know, you know, all of the feedback you've had. I mean, I take it it's been quite polarised. The vast majority is very pro and very pro-Gloria, although there have been one or two that really quite objected to the subject matter, basically. But the way I look at it is, if you're happy to read a book about, I don't know, an ex-soldier or an ex-policeman who's decided he's, you know, going into some, uh, going in to deal with some group of thugs, and he'll carry out atrocious acts, and everybody just reads that and thinks it's acceptable. But because it's Gloria, and because, um, I don't know, it, it puzzles me how some people take it. I understand that they're not happy because it's wrong, etc., but as I say, it's a story and we all need to suspend belief a bit to enjoy things. Do you know what though? Every human being is different. This is the joy of life. We have— there's no one person that's had the same experience of life, and some people have been— have had their mind changed by watching TV. Other people have, you know, had somebody be affected by certain behaviour, and, you know, we all respond differently. And I don't even know how I'd cope if I knew of somebody who had been mugged and punched relentlessly for a tenner. Yeah, um, and that's the thing. Sorry, you mean if you witnessed it, if you saw it happening, if it happened to my mum, my grandma? Um, I honestly just, um, I mean, I get quite angry about people being mistreated anyway, whether it's physically or verbally, you know. I was always that kid in junior school, you know, that if someone was picking on somebody, I'd be the one kind of going, I'll play with you. And it's so I'm sure. I mean, you know, I'm not murderous, not yet. But do you think that you could, if it, if you were put in a horrible situation and something was happening horrible to your mum in front of you, could you react with violence? Without a doubt. I wouldn't even stop to think about it. Um, but that's self-defense. Yeah. Yeah, I suppose so. I suppose Gloria is using it as a method of self-defense for the whole community. It's, it's what I mean about it's such an emotive subject, uh, just wow. Um, great, I think, because it's getting the book noticed. So, so it's, uh, and it's great. I do love the whole female key figure kind of kicking bottom, shall we say. Why is it though, why is it that there's never been a book about an elderly protagonist like Gloria? Why is it elderly female? I don't understand why it's not been done before. I have found one book, I think it's called An Elderly Lady Is Up to No Good, and it's, I think it's a Swiss writer called Helene Turrent or something, and that's about an octogenarian that's doing what Gloria does. But that's the only book I can find anywhere, and certainly not one in the UK. So, and that's a terrible title for a book. I mean, there's Gangster Granny from David Walliams, but that's quite a different genre really. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I just, yeah, I don't know, it's, I think sometimes people are a little bit scared to write about sort certain topics because even now as a broadcaster I'm worried about what I'm going to say, whether it's going to sound like I'm supporting it and someone's going to write to Ofcom and say, well, she was championing vigilantism, and I am not, but I do think that the book is fantastic. Thanks, you are very welcome. Now I'm just, I'm just thinking, you know, who would be your the person that you'd want to champion in the public eye right now? I mean, because Gloria's not real, but is there anybody you're seeing, whether they're in politics or TV or they're speaking the truth or trying their best for, you know, social rights, is there anybody in the public eye that you just want to go, 'Ooh, you're amazing'? That's a cracking question. Thank you. I think the one person that is staggering me at the moment is George Alagiah. Oh really? Who's the newscaster? Yeah, yeah, absolutely amazing when you consider the battle that he's got going on in his private life. You, you probably know about it, I'm sure. He's got bowel cancer. He's had bowel cancer since 2013, 2014, something like that, and He then got Corona. I think it reached something like stage 3 or 4, really serious, last autumn, and he came off air for a short while. Then he came back on air, bearing in mind his condition. Then he caught coronavirus in March, and then shortly after that, he, he's— he was told that his cancer's spread. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying anything that's not in the public domain, so I'm not speaking out of turn. And it's gone to his lungs, his liver, his lymph nodes, that sort of thing, you know, it's spread around his body. And yet he's still on TV most evenings presenting the news, giving a smile on his face, you know, to people, and, and dealing with that sort of problem in the public eye. And, and still carrying on with your work, it's just incredible. I think, I think it is inspiring. And but you know what, he is one of these people that was born to do what he does. It was definitely his calling. And when you love what you do, that must be the best medicine. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And but I still find it amazing that he I can't imagine what it's like going through what he's going through. No. And then getting up and going to work and putting a smile on your face in front of millions of people on the TV. That's incredible. Yeah, do you know what, I didn't know what he was going through. I, I feel quite terrible to say that, you know. I stay away from the news at the moment because you can't believe half of it, which means that you miss some of the more important elements sometimes. I mean, especially at the start of COVID when you started, there was various stories that were coming out that you knew it was just incredibly bored journalists being a bit slapdash, and I just thought, you can't believe anything these days. You know, I'll kind of check out the BBC every now and again, and I'm sure somebody will tell me if there's something I need to know. I stayed away from the news. It was— I got to the stage I couldn't believe a thing. No, it's— I think a lot of people are fed up with— obviously COVID has got to be at the top of the agenda, but sometimes 20 or 25 minutes of a half-hour news broadcast is about COVID and there must be more going on in the world that people want to hear about. It's, it's almost, I think, lazy journalism in a way, because it's just such an easy subject to go on and on and on about. Yes, it's very, very— it's huge, it's the biggest thing in the world at the moment, but there must be other things going on that they can talk about, I think. And even if they want to write about COVID don't use words like 'we are to believe' or possibly this is the situation. So basically it's, it's not actually news. They're just trying to cause yet again moral panic. And it's, you know, keep it to the point and actually real. But, you know, go figure. I did actually have a friend— aren't they— sorry, they're surmising all the time. Yes. And you know that they're using words which basically means that they're not actually sure of what they're saying and they're just trying to cover themselves If you're not sure, don't write about it. Glad you think the same, I'm glad you think the same. I could go on for quite some time. I did actually have a friend recently announce that she was pregnant, and she put it up on Instagram and Facebook, and the amount of love she got back, where people just saying, "Finally something interesting to see on Facebook for once." Yes, there is at least something good that's happened in 2020, and she kind of called me and said, I can't believe the response I'm getting. Like, even your friends who've met me once are like waxing lyrical. I was like, yeah, yeah, people needed some good news. We do need good news. There's nothing but bad at the moment. But we could— well, you know, this is why, this is why I'm a huge fan of reading as well, because it means we can learn something new, we can distract ourselves, we can kind of pretend we're in somebody else's lives. There are We're in Tier 2 in London. Whereabouts are you based? In Kent. So you're— are you Tier 1 at the moment? Tier 1, yes. And well, it's just as the restrictions are coming in, we need to find things to entertain us, to make us feel like, you know, it's all very well watching Netflix, and if you're watching, you know, a documentary where you're getting to learn something, great, but we've watched all the programmes now. We need to kind of feel like we're enriching our minds. If we're stuck indoors, at least if we're finding out about something, or, you know, reading a good self-help book, or finding out about something in history that we've never had the time to actually learn about. Do something as productive and as positive as possible. Well, I've recently got into reading. I'm 64 years of age, and I always used to read, and in particular listen to— I love audiobooks. I love audiobooks. Non-fiction, especially a lot of history. But because I went back to writing, you see, half of Bang Bang was written 18, 20 years ago. That's when I wrote the first sort of half of it. And then I ended up, my private life went down the pan a bit and I split up with my first wife. And I stopped writing. I completely fell out of love with writing and stopped writing. And then it's January last year when my ex-wife's brother, Neil Lancaster— I don't know if you've heard of him, he's got a great series of books out— he managed to get his first book published, and it sort of spurred me on. I've got him to thank a lot for picking up, um, Bang Bang again and looking at it. And then when I researched the lady who gave me the idea on, um, on Google, I unfortunately found that she died the previous April, uh, and, and I, I finished it in her memory. Basically, she gave me the idea. It's down to her that I was writing at all in the first place. So it's been a 20-year journey for Bang Bang to get finished. Well, I mean, they do say everybody's got a book in them, and that's nice for listeners to hear as well when they've started something. Just because you've kind of let it go a bit, you can always go back to something, you know, there's always hopefully time to finish. I did actually wonder, it was one of my questions, why it was based in 1999, but there you go, there's my answer. It is, yeah. It was a lady who I met. Does it matter if I say who she was? Doesn't matter, I suppose. No, she was Sugs of Madness. It was his mum, and she was on a committee. I was one of two people running a project called Project Lilac in the West End, and it was an idea joining lots of agencies together. So we had drug treatment workers, social workers, we had the local council, we had needle exchange workers, we had police officers, we all sorts of things. We had residents association, of which she was the chair, and we all got together and held meetings on a regular basis on how to deal with the drug dealing problem in the West End of London. And it was incredibly successful. And it was also getting users help, so it was getting them medical care, getting them put into— off the streets, put into flats and houses, basically programs to draw them off the drugs that they were addicted to. And it was incredibly successful. And of course, as with all things that are successful, was shelved by the government once we put the report. Yeah, that must be so infuriating. And although it is the police the police force's job to, you know, enforce the law and protect us. We do need, you know, Joe Bloggs to kind of come forward and say, this is what I've noticed, because they're living there, they're seeing what's going on, and they're, they're seeing why, I don't know, their brother or their, their niece might have succumbed to going to the other side or, or whatever. And, you know, we all need to work together, and they do need support from the public and you know, their help and their information and, you know, if we work together. But I did wonder, as I was reading the book, was there a little edge of being an ex-copper kind of putting in a few personalities and a few digs there to the system? Yes, oh yes, without a shadow of a doubt. I did that deliberately. I know it's a bit like a poacher turning gamekeeper. But, um, yeah, it was, uh, very deliberate, some of the little digs I've had at the system, at the justice system, uh, and at the way police— the police do things. Yeah, it was, it was a definite dig at the system, deliberately done, and I'm glad you spotted it. Well done. Uh, yeah, I mean, it wasn't in any way I mean, you know, the Met, the people that I know in the Met, they're fantastic and they work ridiculous hours. They've got to cancel things last minute. It's everything surrounding who they are, you know. It's government cutbacks, it is, you know, being able to work. I mean, the hours, if you think about it, policemen and nurses are the people that have to work the most the longest hours, and that, you know, if there's no one to cover a shift, they need to work, they need to work longer. So the people that are in charge of our safety and keeping us alive are the ones that are working for the least amount of money and completely knackered with no energy left. Yeah, I certainly, when I was on this project that I mentioned, Project Lilac, it ran for nearly 2 years, 2000 to 2002, I was working ludicrously long hours, ludicrously long hours, you know, day after day, 6 or 7 days a week. And it's very telling on you physically, and it's very telling on your private life as well. It's, it's, um, people, uh, you know, but you've still got to put a professional face on when you're dealing with the public, even though you're probably feeling quite bad-tempered and tired. Have you read Adam Kay's This Is Going to Hurt? Actually, my wife, it's one of her favourite books. I've never read it. Oh, you need to read it, it's hilarious, and he actually brings it back round with quite a serious— I mean, all of it's serious, even though it's very glib, and, you know, being a northerner, I'm a huge fan of swearing, and it's very sweary, very funny, and it's— but it just kind of explains, you know, that you work stupid hours with very little pay when you're setting up, and which means that it's not conducive to having a relationship, which means you're quite often lonely, or, you know, your partner's constantly annoyed with you. Um, you're dealing with people's lives and people who are at their most scared, and it's just— it's an absolute nightmare. And the pressure as well. And yet then when you make a mistake, and humans make mistakes at the best of times, but when you're emotionally and physically drained, just, it's just, it doesn't work together, does it? There's something fundamentally wrong with the system. My wife said it's, I think she said it's first, first book, or one of the first books that's made her laugh out loud several times during the book. Oh, he's, he is hilarious. He's actually Uh, he's got a West End show coming out soon, which I'm surprised about because I thought the West End was completely closed down. But, um, supposedly that's supposed to be coming out quite soon. And he's been to a local theater near me, and I've never had the chance to go because he does the show, um, The Night Shift Before Christmas as well. And he's— he is hilarious. But these are the kind of books— is it then? What sort of shows are you doing? He just is just stand-up talking about, you know, the NHS and going, you know, this is what happens. And when somebody comes in and says that, you know, they've accidentally fallen on a pineapple or whatnot, and it is, it is very, very funny. But again, it's one of those books where it entertains you, it makes you laugh, it kind of lifts your spirits, but at the same time it teaches you something about compassion and humility And maybe just the next time you want to shout at somebody when you're scared and you're in hospital or you're dealing with a policeman and you're frustrated, you know, the reason that they can't always answer your questions or can't see you straight away or somebody has, you know, pushed ahead of you in the queue, it's for sensible reasons. Yeah, I suppose, well, I don't know, I mean, I I've not read it, but I can imagine that his show would be— I think my wife would love it by the sound of it. Oh, Google it, go and sort it out. There you go, I've sorted out your Christmas present for her now. You are welcome. But you say you've just started, uh, reading a bit more as well. What book have you read recently that— Oh, I've read several, but, uh, I enjoyed Danny King, The Hitman Diaries. I know it's quite an old book, but, uh, I love that. My favorite, and I have to say it's the best book I've ever read or listened to, is The Servant by Maggie Ritchel Davis. It's just, for me, it might not be everybody's cup of tea. It's historical fiction, it goes back to 1760. It's about a young servant girl. She wasn't always a servant girl, she came from a nice family, but she ended up as a servant girl. It's just absolutely gripping, and it's— you, you just live every minute with this girl. Brilliant, dreadful things that happen to her. Um, and it's a wonderful, wonderful book, The Servant. And but, um, I, I think it's her first ever book, and I know she's quite elderly, so a bit like me, she's, she's older than me, but quite, quite, um you know, to write your first book like, and it's that quality in her 70s. I wonder how long she's been holding on to that book then. Yeah, exactly. I think she's in her late 70s, so she'd probably hate me for saying that on the radio, but she— yeah, I think she's in her late 70s, and it's incredible, incredible story. Oh, I'm gonna go and check it out. Yeah, thank you, Rachel Davis. So you're thinking about doing a sequel to Bang Bang You're Dead. Um, I've got two other books that are already finished. Oh, tell us about those. Oh, well, uh, right, I'll start. I wanted to write stories when, when this idea of Bang Bang came about 20 years ago, and then I subsequently finished it recently. I, I like the idea of writing a book that hasn't been done before, so that's what I've tried to do with my second and third books as well. So my second book is about a, a girl who's born into a family in Sussex, a strong Christian family, um, but how can I explain it? I'll cut it very short. She ends up going as an aid worker to Afghanistan where she falls for a Muslim chap and they end up having an affair and It's a story of her falling in love with the religion of Islam, and she becomes radicalized because he's part of a terrorist group. Ah, what? And it— but, but I know there are dozens and dozens and dozens of books like that. This book is very, very pro-Islam, and I think that A lot of people do not understand the Islamic religion, and I had to learn it. And so I went to the local mosque in Tunbridge Wells where I met Yasser, who's the Imam, and had meetings with him. And he has taught me so much. And so the story is how she becomes radicalized, and she comes back to this country as a sleeper. You know what a sleeper is? I'll tell you Yeah, yeah, comes back as a terrorist sleeper, um, and she does carry out a couple of horrible things. But then I won't say what happens in her life because it will spoil it, but, um, it's not that much of a, a spoiler. But she— something happens and it makes her realize that what she's doing is wrong. And it's the story of her trying to extricate herself from a horrible group. And it's, it's basically a story about what, what a good, kind, and loving religion Islam is. Um, so it's a— it's just a different perspective. And the thing is, that's, that's the beauty of books, and, you know, a good book, when we can understand other people's perspectives more, because it teaches us again, to have humility and to have a bit more of an open mindset. Yeah, well, I've been helped a lot by a lady called Danielle. I hope she didn't mind me mentioning her, in Bradford, who was brought up as a, you know, in a Christian family down in Kent, and she ended up marrying a Moroccan chap and they moved to Bradford, and she now has 4 children with him, and she has converted to Islam, fully converted. And she has helped me a lot with getting it right and getting the dialogue right and getting the, uh, the etiquette of how when a non-Muslim meets a Muslim lady, or when they— when she meets, um, you know, a Muslim man, how The behavior, you know, how you speak to each other, that's that type of thing, which I didn't realize. I, when I initially wrote it, I got it all wrong. And so she's— that's great, Evan. Try again, love. Yeah, she's helping me out. She's helped me out a lot to, to correct all those in, you know, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? I can't think. But she, she helped me a lot to learn how to adapt the writing so that it flows correctly in Muslim society. Okay, and because that's important, because it's believability, it helps you get involved. Believability, sorry. Oh yes. Interestingly, I don't know whether you've— have you heard of the author Louise Berthoud-Donz? No. She wrote a book called The Missing Activist and She— it's not the same story, but it's the same kind of concept of hearing it from other people's perspectives about why people might get radicalized and the process of families who realize that their children have been radicalized and just complete, you know, the complications that come with that. And it's It's a very interesting book. To be honest, it probably should be about 6 or 7 separate books. There was a lot going on within it and definitely a lot of politics going on. But yeah, I mean, that might be one to possibly have a look at. What's it called again? The Missing Activist by Louise Burfoot-Donz. I might have a look at that because it might help me with my own, you know, when I— well, I've sent it in now to Red Dog. Right, to see whether they like it enough to, to go for it. I, I think it's, I think it's a really good book, but, um, well, send it my way as soon as you get it published. Okay, I will do. It, it's a story that really makes you veer one way, makes your mindset veer one way, and then veer back the other way by the end of the book. And I think a lot of people in this country need to take a bit of a look at themselves including me, probably years ago. And you need to actually learn more about other religions rather than— I think a lot of people are anti, anti, um, the Islamic religion and they don't know why. Well, I think there's a lot of people— again, it's media— and there's a lot of people that just haven't either chosen not to be educated on the subject or have heard the wrong information. I mean, I know it sounds ridiculously trivial, but when something happened, there was a terrorist attack in London and EastEnders kind of did a whole episode on the family who— the— oh, who was it? I can't remember the name of the family, but they basically talked about what Islam was supposed to be about, and they did it beautifully. And it was just to kind of capture the audience and actually put together, you know, just try and broaden people's minds and encourage people to, you know, question what they're told. Yeah, I think that's exactly it, and that's certainly what I've called it, Sleeping. I've called the book Sleeping because that's what she's doing. But I originally wanted to write it about a family in the US. But then the difficulty with doing the research, etc., would have been— so I've moved it to, to the UK. Um, I've got one other third one I can tell you about briefly. Yeah, go for it. Um, I've got a friend who— I moved into a small village in Kent, very small, it's a hamlet more or less. No, I suppose it's a village. Um, about 7 years ago, and when we moved in, we met a lady called Lucy. And Lucy was a transvestite, was originally called Ben, and we became friends. And she then reverted back to being a male again and is now Jamie, currently is Jamie, and was going through the whole transition process. Process and was going to have the operation. All right, so were they a transvestite or transgender? Transgender, right? Okay, but well, yeah, became— has become transgender, yes, right? Because I've had to learn all the various sayings— transgender, transsexual, transvestite— and there's another terminology. Yeah, and he, he— it's a he now— has been very helpful to me But when I sat and spoke to him, he said, I'd love someone to tell my story, because he's had the most unbelievable life. And he knew that he was in a wrong body from the age of 8, and he knew that age onwards that he shouldn't be a boy, he should be a girl. But he's grown into a man, or he grew into a man, 6 foot 4, full of muscles, big, naturally well-built guy but wanted to be a woman. But he actually, he had horrendous problems throughout, obviously, secondary school and jobs and that sort of thing. And then he, he, um, decided he would conform with what society expected of someone who, who was born and who looked like a male. And so he He went into relationships and he ended up getting married— with relationships with women— and he ended up getting married and he had a daughter. I've met his daughter 2 or 3 times and, um, lovely girl. And it was his wife who told him in his mid-30s, you are the loveliest man in the world, but you really need to be with another man. 'And you really need to live your life as a woman.' And that was his wife that told it. It's quite an emotive story. Oh, but you know what, if you love somebody, set them free, right? Yeah. And I— so I said— I think he still gets on well with his ex-wife, etc. So I said to him, you know, that's lovely, but I said, 'There have been stories about people's problems with transitioning before.' they have been done. I said, I'd really like to write a story about your life, and I want to build it into a crime story. Oh, okay, so it is going to be fiction? It is— well, it is fiction, but it's heavily based on his life. And so it's a fiction— it's a crime novel about a man like him, because he said, all my life I've wanted to hit back people that have hurt me. And really, you know, I've lost jobs because because people are so horrible to me in my jobs. And he said, I've always wanted to hit back, but he didn't. He turned it back himself, on himself. And, you know, he did, he did things to himself. He hurt himself. And because the pain was so much, and I wanted to let him know what it— how it would— could have been. Obviously he didn't want to do it, and he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to lash out at people. And now he's in a much, much better place mentally, but he's still having treatment. But he, he loves the fact that I'm, I'm writing it as a crime story. Well, I finished it now, I'm just doing some final editing on it. Um, and it's just, it's a story about someone who's been through his whole life, but when he gets to the age of 21, he, he lashes out, and that's what it's about. Wow, powerful story. But this is, again, this is why it's quite important that we have to be more inclusive and let people be who, who that they should be, because the damage to people and their well-being if, if we're not supportive as a culture is, you know, it's, it's horrific. It's what men's radio station and Women's Radio Station is all about. Well, I'm sure Jamie won't mind me saying that he has suffered horrendous problems. He still is suffering, but he's, he's very much under control now, and he's living his life quite happily in our village. And, um, and, and nobody minds whether he's Lucy or Ben or Jamie in our village. He's, he's loved by everyone, you know. And, um, yeah, it's— but when you listen to what these people go through, I said, do you mind if I start taking notes about your life? I said— I stopped after 7 pages of notes. It was just, you know, you think, how does someone keep balanced, keep, keep a balanced viewpoint or a balanced mind at all when you've been through what he's been through? But do you know what, the steps that people make, which are, which were definitely a lot harder in years gone by but are still hard now, the more that, you know, people make these steps, the easier it will be for those in the future. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I'm sure that a lot of people, because of what he's been through and how he's dealt with it, and how, how not only that, how the doctors learn how to treat and to, to help people with those mental health problems that they've, they've developed because of the way they've been treated and because of the confusion in their own head. Um, I, I think that what he's done in his life is astonishing, and he, well, he deserves his story to be out there. Well, I think it's incredible that you've recognized that, and it's definitely— that's another one that I want to— where, if you shove me on the list Yes, please, for receiving that book as soon as it's published. Well, if you want, I'll just send you the electronic copy of it as how it is now. It does need polishing up and tidying, but you might be able to give me some feedback on it. Yes, please. Yeah, definitely. I'll do that. Brilliant. And we, do you know what, we've been racing through. We've got like just over 5 minutes left of today, today's show. I can't believe, I mean, we, we could just literally just be sitting there with a pint and, uh, well, we couldn't because we're in tier 2 and we're not in the same household, But you know what I mean, in theory. But do you have— what I'd like to ask all of my guests on Get Booked here at Men's and Women's Radio Station is, do you have 3 of your top wellbeing tips for our listeners? It's probably been done loads of times before. For me, walking is the best thing to— oh yeah, get out, exercise, walk. And, uh, you know, it's just wonderful. Do— I'm currently doing a, a quick challenge that I've given myself. I'm doing 100 miles a month, every month, walking. Um, and I do— I did that because a very good friend of mine called Jem, who's a large gentleman, uh, he was 25 stone, then he got it down to 22. Well, recently he's down to about 19 stone 4, and he's done the Million Steps Challenge for Diabetes UK. Yeah, my friend did that. She's Type 1, and he's Type 2, I think, and he's so much fitter and healthier through walking and walking, walking. So that's a good one. Just before you go on to the second one, the good thing is that walking, it's not just about, you know, getting exercise, it's taking in your surroundings, exploring, actually getting to just have, you know, a casual casual conversation with strangers. And just, you know, there's so many different elements to walking that are fantastic. Yeah, yeah. No, I, I, well, I, I like to walk with someone, although I, I do walk on my own when I just want to get the exercise in and there's no one about. But I do like to walk with someone, chatting with someone while I'm walking. It's nice. Um, I suppose number 2 would be, I call it the too hard to do draw. The amount of people that— you know when there's something that needs doing in the house or something you need to do at work, but it's just one of those horrible jobs, one of those things that you don't want to do. And I call it leaving it in the too hard to do drawer because you think, I'll just do that next week. And then next week comes, I'll just do it next week. Oh, I'll do it next month. I'll do it tomorrow. You never get around to doing certain jobs. But those jobs are constantly sitting in the back of your mind, and you're not— you're not outwardly thinking about them, you're not consciously thinking about them, but they're constantly nagging at your subconscious all the time that you haven't done those things. And I would say get those jobs done. Yeah, it's cathartic, right? Yeah, and get the difficult jobs done, and then they're never as difficult when you actually sit down and do them. As you think, and you feel brilliant when you've got them done. My wife will probably listen to this and say, well, you never get the jobs done. But I was just about to say that. I mean, to be honest, I've had quite a few of those jobs, and I did one of them the other day, and I'd put it off for a month. It took me 5 minutes to do. Yeah, I know. And yet I bet you were thinking about it a lot. You don't realize you are, but it's nagging at the back of your mind. And so for your mental well-being, I would say that's a good I mean, half the time, you know, I just say to people, I'm not that bothered about dating, I just want someone to come along and do all those jobs in that drawer. That's a good idea if you could find one of those. Yeah. And my last one I would say, and this is probably more for men of a certain age and men of my age, probably not so much ladies, when you wake up during the night, you You're fast asleep, you wake up, you think, I need the loo, I need the loo. What, what do you do? Most people fight it because they're nice and warm under the covers and they're snuggled down, and you think, I'll just, I'll just fight it and I'll just try to hang on till the morning, etc. And then you wake up again an hour later and then you do the same again. I would say get up, go to the loo, get it out of the way. Um, and that's a difficult habit to get into. I was in that habit a couple of years ago, but I've slipped again now. And I tend to lay there and fight it. But I think that's a good one because you're getting decent sleep then. You might get up once to go to the loo, but other than that, you're getting a nice run of sleep instead of waking up every now and then. So you're saying when you've got to go, you've got to go. You've got to go. You have. I like that. Yeah, so I would say they're my 3, probably. The only problem is with that is that I fancied that at about 3 o'clock this morning, and I was putting it off because I knew the second I got up both the cat and the dog who sleep with me in my bed then both went, 'Oh, do you know what, we might as well,' and then I had to stand by the door at like half 3 in the morning waiting for the cat and the dog to decide to come back in again. All right, I see. So it's different for everybody, you know, but that's the thing, you've got to find what works for you. You have, yeah, you should do that. There's some good things to do, I think, anyway. The dog's looking at me right now. You know, in my COVID studio going, "Hahaha!" She's laughing at me, she knows it was annoying and she just doesn't care. So where can people find out more about you and find out about your next releases? And I must point out Bang Bang You're Dead, it's on Amazon, Waterstones, it's in all the good bookshops, isn't it? Well, I didn't know it was in Waterstones. I'm pretty certain it is. All right, oh, that's good news, and I didn't realize that, but I'm pleased to hear it, certainly. I don't have a website, I'm afraid, but you can certainly buy the books at Red Dog Press, www.reddogpress.co.uk, yeah, on Amazon, and I'm on Twitter @bulldogkevin. Brilliant, and I'll put some details up there as well on our Twitter. Now, you definitely are on Waterstones. I can send you a link. All right, thank you very much. No, I thought if you could send me that, I'd be amazed. Thank you. Yeah, you'll be, uh, you'll be impressed. I mean, that's— that means like you're a proper author, doesn't it? Uh, no, it's fantastic. I mean, the book is— is the amount of people that I've told about it and they've all gone and bought it as well. Um, well, I hope your director gets it on the gets me into Hollywood, that would be wonderful. Well, I'll have another word with her, I'll just give her a quick nudge. The only problem is, I think there's a few problems with production in TV at the moment, but you know, we're just going to shelve everything until 2021 and then we're all over it. I really hope that we get back to some sort of normality in about a year's time, but we'll see. Well, the sooner the better, but you know, we've all got to go through a process process, and I just hope that everybody's safe and well. And for those of you thinking, oh, I'm back in— I'm in Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, I need something to do— what you need to do is you need to go and get yourself Bang Bang You're Dead. Absolutely, you do. I think they love it. Well, thank you so much for joining me on today's show, and I've absolutely loved having a chat with you, and it's It's lovely when you can read a book like Bang Bang You're Dead and actually speak to the author behind it and find out some of the stories behind what's gone on. It's been great to chat to you, and I look forward to receiving the proof of the book and finding out about your new books when they come out. Thank you so much, and enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you, Hazel, and you.