Healing Image Hi With Eva May – Judge Rosemarie Aquilina, Just Watch Me

Hello, this is Eva May, and I'm speaking to you from the Women's Radio Station for another in my Healing Image High series. So Healing Image High was a project that I set up for myself with the help of some image professionals after I've been through a priest investigation process into the abuse that I experienced through my childhood for many years. I then had a breakdown and was unable to leave the house for nearly 4 years, and then I decided that I needed to get some action and start making steps to recover and move forward. So that was my help with my makeup and my image, and that certainly was quite easy to get to grips with, and it gave me something that I could do pretty quickly and be able to go out and feel better. So over this series, I've been speaking with my— well, just myself and guests as well, from people who have touched my, my life, from my experience. And today I'm just absolutely delighted to be speaking with Judge Rosemary Aquilina, who is a circuit court judge from Lansing, Michigan in the United States. So welcome, Rosemary. I'm absolutely so thrilled to have you and speak to you because I first contacted you in 2018. I sent you a message from the UK because you had— I'd seen on our television your court stream for the case against Larry Nassar, who was the doctor at the time for the Olympic U.S. gymnast team, and for the, the abuse that had happened to many of those girls in that, that team. And There was an awful lot of media attention around this case, I know, which is how I heard about it in the UK. But listening to everybody, seeing you listen, the prosecutors, the law enforcement, you actually went somewhere to heal some of my unhealed suffering. I felt that day something that I've never actually felt in my life. And subsequently, you've actually— over the years, we've had sort of email contact, and through books that you've written and pieces that I've listened to on the internet from you, you've actually gone from making me feel stronger as a survivor to being able to paddleboard, which is something that I never thought I would do either. But so could we talk to you about your life and the job you do. We could touch on the Nassau case and the strength of support and how things are changing for survivors, and also maybe touch on some of the negative things too, like social media. So hello and good afternoon in Chicago— well, in Lansing. Yes, well, first of all, thank you for inviting me, and it's so wonderful to meet you. I know we've talked for about 4 years. You were one of thousands who reached out to me, and I tried my best to say a nice word, a kind word, an acknowledgement to everyone. I hope I didn't miss anybody. If I did, I'm terribly sorry, but I still receive emails, texts over social media, in many, in many ways from people, letters, all sorts of correspondence from people like yourself saying, I heard the words of the sister survivors and I saw their strength and I saw that you acknowledged them. And because of what happened in your courtroom, I felt like they told you my story. I felt like you told me it was okay, that I would be okay. So today I'm not cutting, I'm not committing suicide, I'm seeking help. I feel better and stronger than ever. And I have people reach out and say, I replay your words over and over as if you're telling it directly to me. And I'm very, very honored by that. But honestly, you know, the world looked at that case the Nassar case, but I have had, I don't know, thousands of cases. I always handle cases that way because whether it's a home invasion or a domestic violence or a robbery, a carjacking, it doesn't really matter what crime it is, the victims need to have a voice in order to then move on with healing and victory. Regardless of what happened in the case, regardless of who believes them, it's the power of the robe that they were able to tell their story publicly, to have it acknowledged by someone in authority, and to be told, "You're so strong. Thank you. You matter. You didn't do anything wrong." And I'm still in disbelief, and I go around the world speaking to all sorts of organizations, groups, and people. And I'm still in disbelief how many people choose to not believe the victim and to stand with the predator. Those people are co-conspirators to crime, and we shouldn't tolerate anyone who stands by a predator and disbelieves the victim. We have a legal system across the world, regardless of how yours works, We have a legal system where everyone should have their day in court and let a judge and jury decide what happened, not the gossip on the street. Victims shouldn't be re-victimized over and over and over again when they try to ask for help. And I, um, and I got some further sort of insight into the case because it was involving with the U.S. gymnastics Olympic team, um, there was, um, the Netflix documentary called Athlete A, because one of the, the girls who, um, was a victim of Nassar was— that was how she was referred to, as Athlete A. And I watched that fairly recently in the last couple of months, and I I messaged you to say I've watched, I've watched Athlete, and you suggested that there was another one called At the Heart of Gold. So like at the heart of a gold medal, um, which so complemented it as well. And, uh, my family are like, you shouldn't be watching that. No, no, that's going to be very triggering for you. That's, um, definitely but the way I needed to see it, the way it was done was extremely professional. And if that can give the rest of the world who maybe don't have streaming or video recording or live TV of court, which we don't, to see how the process actually works it has to be extremely thorough by everyone involved, like the law enforcement and the prosecutors, to get— because you don't want any sort of thing to go wrong in the courtroom with technicalities and things. And I think to bring— just to actually show something that— how it's real and how it really does happen, because there's not a huge understanding until that case, and you've seen thousands like it, but I mean, it was so large that one of your children even wanted to go and watch somebody that she called judge and not mom on this occasion. Yeah, my middle child was in high school at the time and she didn't know. She knew some of the names, she was reading the papers. And of course I was staying away from all the media 'cause I was in the middle of sentencing. I didn't wanna be influenced by anything other than what was in the court. But she said to me, "Mom, I know so many people and the, of course there's the Olympians." And she knew of them, but she learned that there were girls in her high school who had also been assaulted. And she said, "I don't understand how this can happen. I need to come watch." And of course I couldn't talk about it with her, but I said, "Sure." And I called up her principal who has since passed, but he was a wonderful principal. And he said to me, "I will give her a pass from school. She's gonna be with you. She'll get a better education in that courtroom. I understand." And so she was excused from school. And she watched. And up until this time, there had been a few years where she started calling me— you know, the teenage years are tough— and she started calling me Judge because I had rules. I would call her friends' moms and say, is there really going to be a party there? Are you really going to be home? You know, and I would check on her. She didn't always tell me the truth. I don't think any human tells their parents everything about the truth, but I wanted to know enough to make sure she was safe because what I see every day in court are horrible things that happen to people. And of course that worries me with my own. So she started calling me Judge and she never referred to me as Mom anymore. She gave it up as a name. And then she sat there for 3 days. On one day she brought her best friend and the other days her boyfriend also came and they sat. And when it was all over and we started talking about it at the dinner table, I don't even know if she realized it, but I did. She started calling me mom again, and she has since called me mom. And I think she saw me in a different way and finally understood that my work isn't about being so strict in my own life and with her, but it's really to protect the community, to give voice and safety to everyone. And so while people may not like what my rules or what I do or say, there is a rationale behind them, and hopefully it's for safety and a better world, whether it's from my home or yours. Yes, and you, um, we were saying about, um, the crimes, um, well, any crime that's committed, or, um, how, uh, you cannot— these days we now get people on social media. I mean, I know that you've had some messages from people criticizing the way that you— some aspects of the case that they— how they've interpreted things, and so did the victims. But, you know, this is— I think it came across how people were very reluctant to actually believe that this had been happening because of reputation of somebody who would appear to be, you know, a really hard-working sort of pillar of the community. And I think— can you talk a little bit about the, you know, the strength that those girls and everyone that comes to you has to face because I went through the police process in the UK and they have an agenda and once you're on it, it goes along, goes along and I found it incredibly difficult. So seeing everybody stand up in your courtroom and the way that they all spoke, it was very calm. Nobody was— there was no crosstalk. And you were also talking to me earlier about how you managed the courtroom for this case, because I think it was— you couldn't even see the carpet, could you, for people? There were absolutely everywhere. There were more people in my courtroom than were allowed. I actually called the court administrator and said, um, don't ask questions, here's what I'm doing. And I laid out the courtrooms for safety for everyone first and foremost. I'm trained in the military, I served for 20 years, and I wasn't just a prosecutor, defense counsel, and judge in the military, but I also had to serve as a soldier. So I was trained in terrorism, and I used that training, brought in all of the different police agencies who would be associated with this case because they all have different jurisdictions, and said— and they said, what do you need, Judge? And I I need safety. I don't need a 3-minute response. I need an immediate response. And I need all of you to come together based on your jurisdictions, and here's what we're going to do. So we had plainclothesmen, and we had people outside the building and all over. And, and we had a, a plan in my courtroom. He didn't just sit in the witness box because I wanted him there, which I did want him there so the girls wouldn't have to turn around if he was at counsel table, but I I wanted him there, um, not just— not because he says, you know, it's a circus and all of these things. I wanted him there for safety because there's actually a door behind him where the jurors go out, and there was a plainclothes police officer. And had anybody even headed one foot toward him, he would have been taken immediately to safety. I was very worried about his safety and the safety of the families and the girls in there. But when things got really heated, when the sister survivors would say, "Look at me," because there were times he wouldn't look, he would laugh with his lawyers, he was making notes, he was just— wasn't paying attention. And the frustration level, you could just feel the angst in the courtroom. You know, it's like when we're in war and you go from green to red on the TV to see what's going on terrorism-wise, and we're at red. I said something to him and immediately that angst would go down and it would turn to green. And he really needed to listen to them. Now, there was only really one time I saw emotion, and that was with Trinea Gonzer. And Trinea Gonzer was assaulted about 850 times by him since she was about 6 or 7 years old. And she was also very close to him, as was her family. And she testified, and her mother was with her, and she was pregnant at the time. And she basically, in my mind, said something— these are not the exact words, but to me they were biblical— basically saying, "My friend, what have you done?" And it wasn't mean-spirited. It was really from a place from deep in her heart. Because she'd been betrayed. And that was the time that he broke down and cried. And really, I think in those few seconds, lost the control that he enjoyed over everybody. And maybe had an understanding that, wow, I really did something wrong. I think that was a profound moment. It's been captured and replayed over and over and over around the world, and I think rightfully so, because victims just want to be made whole. And once they are violated, there's no amount of money, no, no words, nothing that can make them whole. But in that moment, there was that realization, I think, that he understood he stole something so precious from her, but she But she didn't say, "I want you dead." She didn't say, "You're horrible." She said, "My friend, what have you done?" Because she was so confused by the love she thought they had as this mentor and the betrayal, which was so enormous. And I think she spoke for a lot of victims in those moments. Yes. Oh, that's— Yeah, I don't think I've actually seen that bit. I need to, but that must have been terribly moving. I mean, just like simple words of— I mean, I was the same age actually from then when I started being abused, and even Even now I have the confusion of someone who we knew as a family, who was known by an awful lot of people, had a lot of friends and a lot of respect, but to suddenly— there was no narrative then, obviously it wasn't spoken about because nobody knew. So it's just so, so confusing. I don't think there were actually the words. I wouldn't have had the vocabulary really to describe or explain, but I can remember this feeling of, you know, being— just being unsure what was going to happen at the time then when our families were together. And that has stayed with me for such a long time, and this 'What have you done?' Like, do they really realize quite how much damage is caused and how much healing there is to do? It doesn't— I know you say, um, because your audiobook, which, um, I've listened to, it's the only first audiobook and only audiobook I've ever listened to, but I've listened to it 3 times now, so I know quite a lot about your life, which is extremely interesting. And the way, you know, you speak is— well, I was listening to it on earphones and I just kept bursting out laughing, and my family were wondering what on earth, you know, I was listening to. And because you've done many, many things in your life, and your description of your family life is It's really, really good, something I can relate to. But I think it's taken me so long to even now just trust people and then wonder how, like, you were betrayed like that. And yeah, who could do that to a 6 or 7-year-old girl? It's, it's just It's the unsayable, which couldn't be said then, but I'm certainly glad that she's been able to say that now. And very, very hard for her parents, I would imagine, as well. I know watching my family having to see and be involved in the process that I went through was really quite hard on me as well, devastating. It was something I wanted to really protect them from. But the people in your courtroom were— a lot of them were there with their parents, weren't they, and family members too? You know, it divided. There were— you saw a lot of parents, family members, friends but there were a lot who were not there. Obviously, I didn't know any of this until much later, but— and I have talked to many, many parents. Sometimes parents will reach out to me and say, can you talk to my daughter because she's falling apart, she needs to hear from you. And so I make those calls, um, but I also know that there's a parents group that started and formed, and they— the parents really lean on each other. I also know that there are some parents who are so outraged that their child came forward that it has ruined their relationship forever. And I see these kinds of cases regularly on my bench, and it's always interesting because you will see half the family behind the victim and half on the prosecutor's side, and the other half behind the defendant. And it divides families. They don't want to believe it. They don't want to think that it happened on their watch. They think there's lying, or that you should never tell because it's a family secret. Well, these family secrets kill. And let me just say that because there are a certain amount of victims who commit suicide every year. Yes. And those that don't, many of them— it's not true of everyone, but we need to recognize that many of them become alcoholics, drug addicts, they cut, they're bulimic, they're anorexic, they're— there's all sorts of things that happen And it's a result of the trauma that they can't talk about. We need to have trauma-informed doctors and social workers and judges and police officers and, and everybody, because you have to recognize the signs of trauma but also how to deal with it and to listen to children. How is it that children know about penis and vagina and ejaculation and all of those things at a very young age, and then they should be able to use the names and say, "Someone hurt me." But when they're not using the right words or they don't know it's wrong, then it tends to be hidden. And, you know, in the Nassar case, if somebody would have believed them 40 years ago, that case never would have been mine. It never should have been mine. Somebody should have believed the first time it was reported, the second time it was reported. There were multiple, multiple people who knew. We have a Dr. Anderson who has since passed, at the University of Michigan, who assaulted over 2,000 students and athletes. And they have come forward, and they just recently got a settlement from University of Michigan, but they're continuing their fight. Again, what happens with athletes, and whether you're in the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the church, what have you, people don't tend to believe children. And then, of course, The children are groomed and gaslighted to— and told, well, you know, okay, I'll be happy to tell this, but then you will lose your scholarship, or you will lose, you know, your favorite teacher, or you won't be able to attend here anymore. Whatever it is, they are told that, well, it really didn't happen, but it will tell if— and then they're blamed right away. Shutdown. And, you know, of course predators groom victims to believe that what they're doing is right, it's in their best behalf, no one will love them like they do. I recently— and there's always a control piece to this. And I have to say, I recently had a number of incest cases in front of me. You know, one is too many, but I have had several come in front of me fairly recently. One of them The child never knew her dad and got to be a teenager and said, "I want to know my dad." And you can't really stop a teenager from doing what they want to do. She found her dad and they started a relationship. What she didn't know was that he was a registered sex offender and he started to rape her. And she is a little bit slow and did not— and she'd never had sex and she didn't understand it. She was really a very new teenager, and, you know, just those formative kinds of years, and she really thought that was what love was. And she never had a dad or male figure in her family or in her life, so she thought it was okay. And eventually she even wanted sex from him because she thought that was love. And his defense was, she wanted it. It's her fault. Now, he was a trusted adult parent, as were— was Dr. Anderson, as was Nasser, as, you know, were so many abusers. And ultimately she got pregnant. Oh gosh. And she had the baby. And she tried to raise the baby. And she's such a good human being. And she talked to me about all of this because I always say, what would you like me to know and how can I help? And the backstory is really the most important part of any story. To understand where someone is today, you have to understand where they were. And so we talked and she said, "And I had to give up my baby because I couldn't look at his face every single day and remember what happened to me. It was very triggering. So I gave up my child." And she felt very awful about it. And here's the thing is, He got a really good plea deal. I think I put him— it was a mandatory, like, 10 years under the plea deal. Otherwise, if there would not have been a sentencing deal, he would have gone for life. But when I asked the prosecutors, "Why should I take this deal?" they said, "Because she said she was, you know, near suicidal and she didn't want to go to trial." So I talked to her and I said, "You said you wanted to go to trial. You just told me that. I need you to tell me because this is your time to talk. And I said, but if you do go to trial, there'll be a cross-examination. And she thought about it and she said, yeah, I, I can't do that, I can't do that. And of course she'd lost so much. Now, where does the legal system fail? It fails in many ways, but especially in cases like this, because why does she— in our— in the United States, she has a right to face her accuser. So she would have to testify in front of her father. I think that needs to be changed in incest case where there is a miscarriage or where there is a baby, because there's the DNA. The DNA should speak and the victim should not be brutalized again in court. And being in court is brutal. So she feels safe now. She's going through healing. She's going through trauma treatment, but the legal system also has to be accountable for some of the trauma that the victims go through. And I'm very sorry about that, and I am trying my best to speak out and to change it. Yeah, it must be just extremely traumatizing, not just to go into court, and to read your impact statement or be cross-examined. But I suppose there's two sides to having the media allowing them access to cases like this. It also then does put another type of pressure on the survivors to see— I mean, they're people that we now have heard of, you know, in the United Kingdom, Yeah, I mean, I think of them as incredibly strong people, but that must be— and I know some of them have gone on to be therapists, and they've come on, gone on to be very successful. Some of them are continuing with their gymnastics, so it's really great to hear a story like that and to hear what people are doing, but there must be for some of them the pressure of the world's press, as on you I would imagine, was pretty huge for this one. You know, I don't think about the media. I just do my job. They're really wallpaper to me. And actually, I applaud the media because responsible journalism is how we change the world. Whether, you know, they expose some kind of criminal activity that's huge that you know, we all suffer from something underground, whether it's crimes of money or drugs or mishandling of stocks and bonds, or whether they are reporting on assaults, domestic assault, rape, whatever it is, we have a right to know. And the newspapers these days are thinner and thinner. And I really think the media in the courtroom, when they report responsibly, informs us all and helps us to change the world, protect ourselves. And their families. It's only when we have knowledge— knowledge is power, you know. And, and predators like their power. They might like their 5 minutes of fame. But you know what? It's also, I think, healing for the victim to say, and this is what happened to me, and I was right. Because we don't see the friends and family behind the scenes saying, don't report, you don't know what you're talking about. And there is something I think is very healing, not only for the victim to tell their story, but to say to the world, "See, I'm right and I was wronged." And to have somebody in power like a judge say, "You're a hero. You are strong. You were victimized, but you're no longer a victim." I can tell you in the case I just talked to you about where the— Yeah. —young girl gave up her child, the lawyer and the defendant had the audacity to tell me, well, You know, he, he was helping because he didn't go against the parental termination so that child could be adopted. I said, he doesn't have any rights against a child where he raped his own daughter. He has no rights in that child. So don't tell me he did her a favor by raping her and then giving up his rights. You know, predators have this, this thing about control. And then when the media is there and they see— if you watch these cases over and over and over again, you start seeing the pattern of control, the cycle of abuse, and being able to recognize it and recognize how do, you know, how does human trafficking happen? Why don't people report? I mean, these— there are numbers about when people report, and the numbers here are, I think the average is like 21 years later, but it's really as long as 49 years later. Because people— our bodies and our brains are really, really smart. And so when you are in any kind of, especially an assaultive situation or dangerous situation, your brain goes into this mode of, I want to protect myself. Some people won't even remember what happened to them. They're going into this phase of, let me live, let me live. That is what God gave each of us to survive. So you don't remember even the, the rape, um, or some of the brutal things that happened to you for many, many, many years. Yes, we've had, um, a study in the UK called the Truth Project where survivors of historic abuse were asked to come forward, and it was an inquiry where the findings will come out in this spring, so spring 2022, and it was initiated by— it's the government, our UK government, and I took part. I was really, really careful about what exactly their safeguarding meant because I think that covers quite a large umbrella, and I wanted to contribute, but I also wanted to to be kept safe. And that some findings have come out now, and I was reading them. In fact, I, I've talked about them in last week's, uh, show, where the average age for the— there were just over 6,000 people that volunteered to come forward and speak about this— was 19 years. And I was just like, 19 years? That's so such a long— that is such a long time. And then I worked out for myself how long it took me to disclose, and it was like 19 years. It, it really has. And I've been very unwell, like you say, like, uh, you know, I, I used to weigh half of what I weigh now, and that was as a, you know, a mother with a with a child at the time. Yeah, I've been pretty unwell, and I have something called dissociative identity disorder, which is complex PTSD. And let's just go up a little bit. My thing was a pedophile ring, so it was organized abuse, and I had no idea what was going on. And now having it sort of explained and people go, "Yep, yep, we know what you're talking about," it's actually very hard. I found it quite hard for my adult brain to process this properly and look at me as a child and looking at myself as two people, as an adult now and as somebody who desperately needs to help this poor kid that didn't get any help. And yeah, it's— and I am only one of 50 people in the United Kingdom who is now receiving specialist treatment at a clinic called Dissociative Studies. Because we're pretty behind here with dealing with trauma. The, the most sort of regular— and there are studies showing results and improvements by people having 6 sessions of CBT, so cognitive behavioral therapy. But it wasn't until I came to the States where I went to a residential facility that I got EMDR that we've spoken about, which can help people with trauma, and equine therapy. That is something that you have specialist therapists for. It's more readily available in the States. Um, and I used to be extremely busy where I came to in the States. I was there for 70 days. And we were taken out, we were given challenges, we did rocks and ropes, we had assignments, we had a lot of one-on-ones, we had consistent primary therapy groups. And when I've been an inpatient in the UK, even as a private one, I could have stayed in my room all day. There's nothing to do. They even cancel art. It's— we don't seem to— I just wish there was some more sharing of information so that we could get the resources to the right people who need it. Because I'm now 56, and I've only been at the Clinic for Dissociative Studies now for a few months, and fighting for the funding, that took a lot of energy, not just for me, but for from other doctors involved. And my treatment is predicted to last for 5 or 6 years, and that's after being in the system for 33 years. I just think that I should have— and I hope for people now that they're going to get what I didn't. Well, you've started something, you know. The 50 will be 100 will be 1,000, and that's the That's the way it goes, but it has to start somewhere. So be grateful. Everybody should be grateful that it started and that you have not only started to heal, but to, you know, this podcast to talk about it. And there's things like art therapy and music therapy, the equine therapy, the EMDR, which, you know, reconnects the brain and the body because you don't really understand how disassociated it is. Therapy animals, all of that that we have here, cognitive. I send everybody, all defendants, cognitive behavioral, because every human being would benefit from that. Yeah, but I think the first and foremost part of healing, whether there's something available or not, is to really look at yourself in the mirror and forgive the child in you. Because you have to understand, and everybody needs to understand, that these kinds of crimes are about power and control, and you didn't have power and control. Had you fought, you might have been killed. We don't want that. Uh, it is the predator who takes the power and control from you. And first and foremost, you can't heal until you say, I wasn't in control, and I, I forgive myself for that. It was not my responsibility. It is solely the predator's fault. I am not at fault. I am good. I am clean. I am worthy. I matter. And you really have to say that mantra over and over and over again so you believe yourself, because ultimately you can go through all the treatment in the world, and if you don't think that you're worthy of the treatment, it will not stick as quickly as it should. And I think there's so many victims— I know there are so many victims who say, 'Cause they say it to me. "What did I do that was wrong? Am I the only one?" And I say, "No, you did nothing wrong. It's not about the makeup you wore, the skirt you wore, the smile you gave, or where you were. It's solely on the predator." And that needs to be understood. And those people who deal with victims need to stop asking why. I don't like the word why. Why shames and blames? Why were you there? Why were you wearing, wearing that? Why, why did you come home so late? When somebody says that why question to you, you want to get the heck out of there. Why belongs in, in science. It needs to retire in science. Why do we have COVID? How can we fix it, right? Um, so what I always ask is, what would you like me to know and how can I help? And the reason is because you need to ask Open-ended questions. So whoever is feeling badly— doesn't have to be about a rape, it can be about a bad test score, whatever it is that's troubling someone, because trauma comes from all sorts of places. People need to be able to talk about their trauma and be heard, be believed, and then understand that whoever they're speaking with is there, available, willing, and able to help them through whatever crisis as it is. And sadly, that's not happening. Yeah, no, I think suddenly it's, it's just not— not— well, hope, like you say, let's get the— start the ball rolling. And, uh, I think, you know, this obviously, it's, it's been, um, there's so many victims out there, um, some who've used their voice, some who haven't. And one of the reasons that I think myself— this is my theory— that I had such difficulty looking at myself, um, the shame, all that, once everything came out. And you know, I had to spend— I mean, we're talking about years just to try and look at myself. I could not do it. And when I did eventually, it hurt like crazy inside. And you know, there were an awful lot of tears coming out, like my eyes were leaking, and no one fix it. And I just feel now that, you know, I was, you know, little, 6, 7, and I've grown. You know, your bones grow, your skin grows, you shed skin, you sort of— your hair or whatever. But the thing that doesn't change is your eyes. They are still the same eyes that saw these things, and that almost were eyes where I could take myself behind to protect myself. So now looking at those eyes— well, I can do it now, we're there— but they're the same eyes, and they hold so much, and they want to say so much. And it's extremely— it's painful, but there's also a lot of joy in there as well, because I am a mum, I've got some other things that I have been successful in, and I will not let anyone take those away from me. In fact, I have memory shelves where I keep things from my past, and those are my threads that— just twist them all together and I've got some pretty good battle ropes to get me through. But I really found that it was, you know, my eyes. Looking back at me, the same eyes that I remember then. Yes, looking at the lights of my eyes through my whole life, looking in the mirror, whatever troubles me. Yeah, I talk to myself through the lights of my eyes. And I think that, you know, they say that eyes are the window to the soul. And as you say, it does. Other things will change, but that doesn't. So you have to have the courage to be with yourself. Look at your eyes. Forgive whatever ails you inside so you can move forward and have those conversations with yourself. And then of course, you know, have a trained trauma therapist and all of that support. But forgive the little kid inside of you who didn't have the power. Yeah, no, definitely. But yeah, that's really why I sort of started on this journey of sort of healing image, to try and get outside, to try and talk, not feel shame, not feel blame, just to— and to, and to learn. Because I've also learned a huge— I've learned a huge amount from you. I mean, I— as well, um, I mean, your books— you've written 3, 3 books now, 4, because the audiobook Just Watch Me has now been, um, published. Yes. Yeah, and all your books are extremely good. I've read them all, and I'm sort of amazed at how much you do. You're such a busy person. You have, you know, 5 children, you live with your parents, you have dogs, you love coffee and hairspray, and you look incredible, and you've got your, you had your parents, and I'm sure you've got an awful lot of friends as well, and then you, I think you've done 5 jobs, as an author, you were in the National Guard, you call it, judge, I believe do you paint? I paint, I write, I sew. I was in the military for 20 years. I'm an adjunct professor. I'm an author. I'm a motivational speaker. I go around the world and talk about really what we're talking about and other subjects. And I'm a judge, and I have my own law firm. I was a lobbyist. I had a radio show called Ask the Family Lawyer. I have done a lot in my life. Yes, you have. And I had a column in Scene Magazine with recipes, if anybody wants to look that up. They're actually a lot of fun, very good recipes. But, you know, really, I've been now on a mission for change because, yes, I have 5 children ranging in ages from 40 to 12, and I'm a grandmother. And really, yep, I have 3 grandkids. And so what do we leave behind? You know, we can't take— I can't take my books with me. I can't take my house or clothes with me. But what I want to do when I close my eyes and see God. I hope that's where I go. I think, but I want to know that I am leaving a safer, better world. And so these conversations that you're having, that we're all having for change, need to keep happening. And we need real meaningful change. It's one thing to talk about it, but we need legislators to change. We need judges to change. We need to fix is a legal system. When someone is assaulted like Trinea Gons are 850 times, there should be 850 charges, not one. When there is a child who has a child through incest, that child shouldn't have to testify. The DNA is enough evidence. Let the, let the defendant confront the DNA and go through the experts, still get their day in court if that's what they want. They have their rights. You know, there's so many things that are wrong in our justice system. It makes it an injustice system. And I know we have the best one in the world. Yeah. You know, I think the jury system is great. I let everybody speak. Not everybody does. All judges should. I think victim means anybody touched by the crime. That's not the Victims' Rights Act the way most people read it. They say only the person who was actually you know, part of the charged offense. But think about it, if your house is robbed, everybody in that house is affected. Um, you know, and I don't understand— if 6 banks are robbed, there's 6 charges. Why, when a woman is assaulted 6 times, there's not 6 charges? Yeah, no, you know, there are so many things that are wrong that I see every single day. I I'm very upset by that, and I'm going to keep talking. And if they want to remove me from the bench, if that's my consequence, that's okay. You have to stand up for what you believe and make a difference. Now, you know, I'm not, I don't talk about open cases. I try to do the right things judicially as a judge, but I know that there are a lot of people who say I shouldn't talk about anything at all. Well, I don't think I lose my constitutionally protected right to speak. I think I've learned a lot of good things and bad things from the bench that I think people should be aware of and that I need to speak out about. Absolutely. And you talk in your, in your book quite strongly about the magic of the robe. So you're using all that knowledge that you— I mean, you've trained for a very long time to become a judge. You've done thousands and thousands of cases. So that experience and passing on that information to people— so people, whether it's me or anybody else, the victims or the people that you work with in court— I think it's the sharing of the information is extremely important. Important. And then it becomes not so frightening. We become more informed, and it might encourage people as well. Well, you've given a lot of, um, courage to— and a lot of healing to a lot of people, as you've had a lot of contact, like, not only from someone like me. I'm— I never expected to hear anything from you, and it was the next day you actually responded. And so it was like a double lift, really. Lift from the case and then a message from you. It was, yeah, definitely helped heal some of my unhealed suffering. So, well, I think that speaking about whatever ails you is really the only way. It's the first step in healing. We saw that in the Nasser case, but I have seen it in every case that I've done. I have had one friend shoot another accidentally because they were fooling around with guns and shouldn't have been. But in my courtroom, then the mother of this dead son said to the mother of the living son who was going to prison for a very, very long time, most of their life, said, "I'm so very sorry for you because you also lost your son." And the mother of the man who was going to prison said, "And I'm so very sorry for you. Today we share a day where we both have lost our sons." And that kind of healing, that public discussion with the families who are on each side of the aisle and so very grief-stricken and mad It really started this conversation and this camaraderie and this healing and forgiveness. And when you can do that in a courtroom, I think that's just amazing. I think it's meant to be. I think that the robe and the gavel should be something magical, not threatening, because ultimately it's the people's courtroom. I'm paid by the people. I have to do their job. It's their courtroom and they should be able to speak and tell me what they want me to know, but also what's good, what's bad. They should be able to talk to each other with my permission, of course. We can't have disruption in court, but it really should be the start of a new life regardless of what happened for everyone so that we're all better for it, not worse for it. Yeah, no, it's— I mean, well, that must be an absolutely very, very difficult case to— for a son, someone to lose a son, and then the other family as well to lose their son. But to be able to, to talk about things, um, I, I, I have an— it's just, um, a feeling of sometimes my family and my friends, they obviously know, they were involved in things and they know how ill I've been and things, but nobody actually really asks anymore. It's rare that anybody will ask, and that's good because I'd like to be seen as, you know, who I am, not just this person who something bad happened to, that should not have happened to. But it's also a little bit strange because it's difficult, it's not an easy subject to talk about with people. They feel uncomfortable about it. I don't think they fully understand everything. That's why we need to speak. Exactly, that is why we need to speak. And, um, yeah, sometimes it feels, it feels a bit, a bit lonely. And then, uh, if you're suddenly triggered, it's like, oh, you know, like, who do I go talk to? Or I've got this reaction, I've got this reaction. So it's not all over just because you have you know, gone through the judicial system and you are seeing therapy. Sometimes it does affect just living, just living, and then out of the blue it can come. Yeah. So let me just say, because I know, you know, you have taken a while for your journey, you're on your journey, and I'm very proud of you. But for those listening, there's no time limit on healing. No, so don't, don't give yourself a time limit. Don't let your mother, your brother, your husband, whoever it is, say, well, aren't you over it now? It's not something you get over. It's something you learn to live with and hopefully live a victorious quality life. But it takes time, and there are going to be triggers that come from nowhere. For women who are assaulted, especially young women, once they— if they're sexually assaulted, once they go into their childbearing years and, and decide to have a family. When a doctor comes in the room and, you know, they all put their fingers in our cervix to see how we're dilated, that's very triggering. And doctors need to be aware and maybe have a female doctor or female nurse in the room, explain everything that's going to happen, why it's happening, because that's very, very triggering. And something as awesome as delivering a baby— yeah, baby— should not be this horrible triggering event where you just want to die because This is happening to you again. You're not dealing with the birth, you're dealing with the rape in your head. Yes. And so that needs to be dealt with. One of the University of Michigan— well, several, but one Christian who's just an awesome human being, Dr. Anderson, gave these young men prostate exams from the age of 18, or some of them were 17, every single time he saw them. And they had to see him, so they were assaulted, you know, 50 times, probably at a minimum. Having a prostate exam every single month, which you don't do that, or more often. When his wife said to him, "I think you need to see a urologist. I think you've got an issue," because she was a nurse, he went in to have his prostate checked, and he ran out. When the doctor started, he said, "You're not touching me. Get out." 10 years later, he started having really bad problems. And found out he had stage 4 prostate cancer. Now, you know, he's in treatment, he's lived longer than they expected, and he's going for some more treatment now. But the bottom line is he could have— this could have been dealt with and he'd be over the cancer. But now he's stage 4 because he was so triggered by just seeing the doctor's hands to do that exam. Yeah. He ran out and he didn't understand why until recently. And so we have to be patient with people who go through any kind of trauma because just about anything could be a trigger. The smell of a cologne or perfume, a color, the kind of car, the kind of sheets, a plaid. It just doesn't matter. Almost anything can trigger— depends on what happened to that victim and they need to to have that space to be triggered and to learn the tools of how to get over that. And the people around them need to be helpful, not hindrance. Absolutely. I feel— I remember for me, you know, I have quite a few triggers, and in our family they know, and we avoid those. But there might be the odd sort of slip-up every now and then, and it's not like, 'Oh, I'm sorry.' It's done. I've gone there. And sometimes it almost feels worse because it's like, was it that unimportant that you forgot, you know, that you can't put the hoover around the house when I'm in the room? It's that— that's kind of difficult to explain. I mean, I know that's a trigger and they can see it very evidently because if you live with me, you would see it. And And, you know, just a little slip-up. So, so you do have to learn to manage those things too. And that is definitely all part— I mean, you do say as well in your, in your audiobook, or Just Watch Me, that if there is a part that needs to take response, some responsibility for your, for your own healing. And I think that's Absolutely, really, really true, because nobody is going to know what makes you feel better other than you. So I've gone on and done— well, they're not really military, but they're run by military staff— residential boot camps. Something different, something— it actually took me back to being a kid, actually, being outside, you know, commando crawling on the grass and doing things. I then trained and I've completed the London Marathon, and just to have some amazing feelings of achievement, even though— so it's like leaving some of the trauma, leaving it behind and taking new things on and finding sort of enjoyment. It's almost in a childlike way as well, because I think that's important to have those feelings and not be under threat. Yeah, um, and I think now I, I know we're coming to the end of the show, and I just want to congratulate you on just everything that you're doing and how you're working on your own healing and sharing that. And I think you are this huge part of changing, uh, not just the American system, but in the UK and around the world, a system where survivors shouldn't be met with frustration and failure, but rather they should be met with a voice that's listened to and ultimate victory. So thank you very much for all your