Hello, this is Eva May, and I'm speaking to you for the Women's Radio Station for another in my Healing Image High series. So Healing Image High was something that I— we gave it a name, which was really a project with me working with some image professionals for help with the clothes that I wore and my makeup and hair and skincare, and that gave me an awful lot of information and confidence to start going outside and then explore other things. Now, um, I've had a rather long sort of history being a service user for mental health services, and 7 years ago I was in a facility as an inpatient in Arizona in the United States for 70 days. And while I was there, I did, um, I got my first taste of working with horses in a therapeutic way. So, um, I found this work extremely helpful, and in fact, some of my best therapeutic work that I have done that has helped me and it remained with me was done working with horses while I was there. So we fast forward now for 7 years. I have— was, was very lucky that one of my friends who knew that I had benefited from equine work sent me an article that was in Psychology magazine about an equine therapy clinic called the Track Clinic, which is on the Somerset-Wiltshire border in the United Kingdom. And, um, I just had to go. I mean, it's something that I've, I've still got this benefit from equine work all these years ago in America. And now there was a place, um, in the UK that I could get to and do some further work. So I'd like to introduce my guest today, who is Nina Thompson. And she is the founder of the Track Clinic. She's an equine coach. She's done, um, an awful lot of training, um, all over the, the world and with well-known people who specialize in this field and is now working with many people, from young people, from adults, families. And, um, well, let's hear from you, Nina. Be really nice and welcome, and thank you very much for speaking with us today. Thank you, Ava. Nice to be talking to you too. Um, it's a real honor to be able to talk about this work and, um, yeah, spread the awareness of it, I guess. Yes. Yeah, I guess, I guess, um, going back to where it all started, um, it was about 7 years ago when I was going through a particularly tough time myself. Um, and I was looking after a horse for a friend and I'd been around horses all my life, but, um, it was actually the first time I really noticed the subtlety of how this particular horse reacted to me depending on my state of mind. Um, so when I was really low, but putting on a really brave face, or thought I was, He could not get near him, could not catch him in the field. He would not stand still to be groomed or saddled. But as a complete comparison to that, when I was still feeling very low, often in tears, or really thinking about the things that were, were really difficult in my life, but not— but importantly, not trying to conceal it, he became this big gentle giant. He was peaceful, he was attentive, he was a diff— in a totally different state. Um, and I guess this was the thing that happened, yeah, going back 7, 8 years ago when I just thought, wow, this must be helpful, this is so helpful to get a read of how we are and to be able to move on from, from difficulties. So I guess I set out to, yeah, researching all the equine therapy training options out there, um, and then went to train with a company called Egala. I trained in Holland and Ireland, um, UK, and also virtually in the US with an amazing woman called Arianna Strozzi, who's a somatic coach, an equine somatic coach, who really, really, um, explains so well and demonstrated so well how how the reaction of the horse to your presence and your, I guess, the subtleties of the energy that you carry, um, how important that is and how important that is to, to, I guess, your healing. Um, and yeah, so fast forward to, um, to now where Track Clinic is a team, um, of both Equine Coaches and Psychotherapists, and we work with adults and children, families, uh, both with emerging mental health conditions but also some some well-established conditions too. So if you, you have now, you've now, I mean, I've been to you now. I've, I had a whole day and then half day, uh, so 3 sessions in fact. And I came, I came as, um, Eva May, not as, uh, somebody who, who presents for a radio station. You know, my, my whole series is based about what happened to me. You know, I suffered from childhood trauma, and I still find, or maybe I don't need to use words necessarily to, to, to shift things in myself. So having the opportunity to come to, to you, um, I, I actually had in my head that it was going to be like Arizona and Somerset is not like Arizona at all, but it was still good for me to come without really delving into and asking you too many questions about what the experience was going to be like. I wanted to have an open experience, so I turned up and I don't think I even knew how many horses or animals you would have in the herd. So can you sort of tell us a little bit about the herd? And how they are and how you have set up the track clinic. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we work with a— I guess it's a small herd. I guess a regular herd will probably be around 8 or 9, but yeah, we have a herd of 4, um, which actually consists of 3 horses and 1 alpaca, who's always a bit of a surprise when people come for horse therapy and there's an alpaca. Um, but yeah, this herd has been put over put together over the last 5 to 6 years and consists of a tiny little miniature who's about the height of a chair, a very fluffy, very wise old Dartmoor pony, and also quite a sprightly Welsh Mountain who is quite a fine and sprightly horse. And I guess, yeah, they've been put together to really I guess to have a good balance and a mix of both age, personality, preferences, colour, reactions, and most mainly because when we're working we can then really explore, explore the kind of depth of where people are. But most importantly is that they're really tightly bonded as a herd, so they really are really good in each other's space. It doesn't mean they won't tell each other off now and again or get grumpy with each other, that's just kind of how we, how they are, but they really know each other well. And that's also, what's also really important in that is that they're looked after in a way that allows them to be as in tune as possible with everything in their environment, which obviously means people in our case. And this is so that their— this is because, I guess, their deep instinctual needs are met. So they're kept in a way that's quite foreign to how a lot of conventional, um, people keep their horses, and indeed how I used to keep my horses, um, you know, way back in my, in my childhood. Um, so these horses are always— they're always in their herd. I say horses, that includes the alpaca. Don't forget him. Um, they're always in company. Um, they're never locked in a stable. They have freedom to kind of come in and out of shelter and freedom to roam. But, and they also, we never put shoes on their feet and we don't put rugs on them because that really inhibits their ability to self-regulate, to grow really thick, deep coats in the winter and smooth silky coats in the summer. And the other thing that I think we sometimes forget is that actually animals, like people, they really do like to touch each other, to kind of groom each other, to be physically close, and that without coats and blankets on, that's what they can do. They can get up close and give each other a good scratch when they need to. And I guess more than anything, it's about them being in an authentic state and as— and their well-being as, as good as it can be, so that they are more in tune to be able to help people to get to that place too. And I guess it's also why we're not run out of a riding school or an equestrian center where I guess the prerequisite is that you're going to learn about horses or want to learn about horses. Um, in a way, the less you know about them, the better, because you're, you're coming from a place of no expectation. And importantly, coming knowing that you're not the one telling them what to do. You're actually there to receive their feedback. Um, it's basically receiving their feedback as to what you're bringing to the space. So yeah, our space is tranquil and private and contained, has a fire pit in the middle, compost loo on the edge, a shepherd's hut with a stove, tree stumps to sit on. Yeah, pretty stripped back and as natural as possible, really. That's actually what I really, really got an awful lot from, from that environment. From having, um, I mean, I, I'd had a horse many years ago, and I think we've chatted about that, where it was just always busy times, always things to do, fit around the family, and, and dash. So, um, to see— I think that the first horse that I actually sort of touched in the herd, the, the thickness of the, the horse hair was something, and the color of it, because some of it, the, the lighter the ends were lighter than the other bit, and you can actually get your, you know, your hand just went straight into this really thick, amazing sort of coat that I've not seen on horses before. Because, you know, you say, you know, they're not rugs, so they just, they grow and they keep warm, and then they'll shed, and they'll— so I really appreciated, um, that being seeing that they are in their natural state. And I also turned up without— I didn't wear any perfume or put any makeup on or anything. I just had sort of old clothes and shoes, just prepared to spend that time without thinking about anything else other than, you know, this, this experience. And it's— it is a lovely setting. They do have space to, to go wherever they want to. They don't need to be near you if they don't want to. And you also have an area in the middle where you can step away from the horses, or, you know, we sat around the fire pit, um, slightly away from them so that we could sort of talk while they still, though, with their presence very much there. So the whole session, all the sessions that I did, it was very much everyone included. In fact, the people that I probably ignored the most were you and, um, and Jess, because I was rather focused on, on, on the session. And I did forget that you were there. Yeah, and that's really intentional. I mean, the idea is that it is an experiential therapy, so it is very much about being— it really being rather than the talking. And obviously we talk a little bit before we start the session, and we talk a little bit at the end to pull out the themes and what's happened. But that's what's important is that you can be— I guess the person has the freedom to explore what they need from a place of, I guess, a place of awareness and embodied being rather than from a busy mind trying to work it all out. So I guess you're really much more dependent on your, your body, your senses, your deep needs that can, I guess, they can come to the fore more easily when we're not trying so so hard to work them out intellectually. Um, so yeah, I think that's a really good thing that your takeout was that actually sometimes I forgot you were there, because that's brilliant. That means you were totally immersed. Yeah, heard, was showing you and, and leading you to. Um, and we of course as facilitators are very— our role very much is to watch very, very closely the, the patterns that happen with the horses, between the animals, with between you and them, and also the shifts when things all of a sudden shift in movement or space, um, because often those shifts are a real indicator of internal shifts happening for the person. I remember specifically with you, Eva, the, the sense of the huge shift that seemed to happen in each of the 3 sessions was this starting from a place of real like physical busyness, being around them, being very aware of what their needs were. And, you know, we'll come back into the detail in a minute, but then ending the session very much with stillness, with support, with leaning up against them and them leaning up against you, that seemed to be a real shift in, I guess, both physically what was happening but also your state of mind from start to finish. Does that— does that— yeah, it does, it does reflect it. And, you know, I had spoken to you on the phone before, and also you sent me some, some forms and things, so you had some information about me, you know. We'd already had a conversation. Now, now, the herd, um, they, they haven't actually read those forms. They're not very good with— no, they're not very good with forms. It's the one thing that you really aren't Yeah, I haven't got to grips with it yet. But so they know nothing about you at all. And I think— I know, I think I said to you that the first thing was that, um, walking into their, their space, you know, that's where they live. And, and they're not just brought out for sessions, that is where they live. And then working out the best way to go. I was thinking more about how to approach them because I don't personally like people coming right into my space. It's something that shuts me down a bit. So I, I was really thinking, um, I mean, it is— it isn't something that you do very often, is sort of go up to some animals and try and sort of interact with them. They don't get that opportunity. So I I was really aware of how, how to let them know that I was there and, and that I was okay and that I wanted to be there. Um, I mean, I, I did want to be there. That was, um, the whole point of going. Um, I mean, that, that was immediately apparent to us when you— when we— after we'd, we'd had, I think, about a 20-minute briefing to start with, when we— when you first went to the horses, how Immediately you, I guess, integrated into the herd, both with touch, with the face-to-face position, with body-to-body connection. And I guess, um, I'm not saying at all that that's necessary, you know, there's never a right or wrong way of interacting with them. So some people might come and actually need a lot of space, they might want to just work with one horse, they might not want to touch them at all. Um, or actually, so I've had some sessions where people don't want to be in the same space them that want to be on the other side of the fence. Um, and I guess that's the point, is that it's not about a right way, it's about actually having a pure reflection, an authentic reflection of what the— your instinctive need was. Um, and I think very obviously to start with, your need was very much to check that they were okay, which was a huge part of what happened in your process, which was all around this pattern of tending to others before yourself and, and, um, and being very, you know, very attuned to that. Um, and what we— through the session, what we— I guess there were some very clear themes that seemed to, to come out. And they were— and when I say themes, they're themes that were, were really mirrored. The horse is mirroring some key themes, really. Um, and the first one was, I guess, this need for safety and of understanding that we were working with complex PTSD. We were very, I guess, right from the outset of how we framed the session, we were very, I guess, careful to make— to be sure that it was a safe and contained environment and that the pace of the session was very much in line with where you were when you arrived. So being really guided by how you were, kind of not just verbally but in a non-verbal sense your presence and your— how you, how you were in your body, as to not force anything too quickly. And, and yeah, so this, this sense of, um, yeah, this need for safety, I guess, was played out time and time again. Where— is that right? All four of them did lie down at different times, didn't they, Eva, with you? Yeah, so the first, the first session, I, I was quite surprised to see the alpaca I didn't expect him at all. I was like, whoa, that's— I've actually never seen one, uh, real before, like only on television. So, um, but he, he dropped on the last session, he dropped to the ground, didn't he? Yeah. And allowed you to be really close to him. And, um, and often we find the animals come down to the ground. Some people call it sitting, or if you're a horse person, you probably call it lying. When they literally just drop their legs and come down to the ground. And this is often a sign of somebody needing to, to be, yeah, to feel safe, to feel grounded. It also shows very clearly that they feel safe around this person to do so. So there's a real kind of reciprocal, um, energy in the space, which means that they can lie down because of course lying down for a herd animal, a prey animal even, um, is an incredibly vulnerable place to be in. Um, well, it's going to take them a while to get up, isn't it, if they suddenly— Exactly. And the other thing we noticed very, um, apparent in your session was this need for this, this support that seemed to be this kind of leaning into them, rocking with them steadily. Um, like they needed, you know, some deep need to feel some strong and solid— I think you use the word solid— yeah, that's solid holding. Um, So that, so I guess there's some two themes there of safety and support that were, you know, felt like they went kind of really back to a lot of what you, you'd had to go through in your life. Um, but also what was, there was a really lovely thread through all of this relatively, you know, very, I guess, quite difficult places to be in. And, and, um, I guess for want of a better word, heavy place to be in. There was also this lightness and play that seemed to play out with you and the little horse who just seemed to make you giggle. I know, I was really laughing. He was very game. Yeah, the find the best itch spot, which again, I timed that part of the session, that was 20 minutes. Was it? That you and this little miniature were going in and out of the tree and turning around, him showing you the spot, you scratching it, going round in circles, up and down. And then he'd find another— then he'd go and move and find another branch and hit another spot. And then I did, I did, um, I know I was laughing. And then, uh, that— well, it wasn't until a couple of days that I actually sort of caught up with my family properly and was talking about it. And the— they— because my husband, um, He's also had been around horses quite a lot, and there were two of them sitting down on the ground parallel, and I was in the middle. And I said, they don't do that very often, do they? And he said, yes, they do. I thought, you're not listening to me, they don't do that very often. This is— this was something really so special. And, um, yeah, he, he said that that night I actually was laughing in my sleep, which is— I know, which is like, I don't do that. I mean, I up in the night and go downstairs and bring up every water bottle that's in the fridge and barricade— without knowing, I do this without knowing, he has to follow me about, watch this— and then I put this sort of safety wall of water bottles all around my bed, which is a bit weird, but it's not hurting anybody. But so to be laughing was actually a massive shift. Yeah, it really had I think maybe, I don't know, looking into it, is it because what I experienced started as a child? And as a child, I shouldn't be experiencing trauma. I should be laughing and having fun and games. And I did have fun and games, which is— well, we, we commented, Jess and I commented a lot, was when we were watching you, we were really observing, observing this kind of childlike state, this kind of total immersion where you were, you and the animals were very much, um, in this carefree young state. And I guess our, our kind of, um, sense was that maybe that is in this state where you didn't have the safety and the support, that actually a state that you couldn't access that much. Um, and hence why it was so important that that came out at that, at that very first session for you. Um, yeah, well, you don't really know what's going, what's going to happen, but the interaction with— in the first session was with, um, the 3 horses including the miniature one, and he, he actually, when he sat down and rolled back, he was practically in my lap, and, um, it was something really incredible, um to do, to experience and to be. I mean, I forgot all sense of time, um, and I would say that, um, I mean, certainly for me, the session— we did another session after lunch, and then I went back about 10 days later and did another one— that I got so much that there aren't— I don't think there are words. It's a deeper level than than words that from, from it, because it's not an experience that people have. Well, let's hope that we— that more people do get to experience this, because I think it's, it's absolutely, you know, incredible. And it's going to be with me, that, that experience is with me. It's, it's, it's definitely staying. It's not something that I'm going to forget about because it was so, so important to, to me and my, my healing, uh, and the interaction, the response, the genuineness that I got. And like, I think you said, mirroring of my emotions. Sometimes I don't even know how to explain my emotions. My emotions can take me over. In, in not a good way. So to have, have this, it's actually something that I can still reflect back on, and that, you know, that's going to be important today as it was yesterday, and it will be for a long time. And also, I'm coming back because, um, I, I, I, I want to— this is something that I benefit from and that I want to, to, to do. Not, not— I'm not going to book a date in the diary now. This is something that I haven't got a rush to do. There's no sort of panic deadline, but I know that I will definitely want to be doing this again. So, you know, I was lucky I found out about it through a friend who read an article, knew I'd done, um, and got this information. So, but how— what about other people who might really, really benefit from having Equine Assisted Therapy find out about you? And, and because it isn't something— I don't think if I'd ever been to America and it had been there, I would even know about it today. And I have tried to be pretty receptive and extensive in my sort of quest on my healing journey. And I also believe that I have some responsibility myself to direct some healing, to take charge of it. So this for me would definitely, you know, be something that I would want to know about so I could make a decision. So how, how is it now that this is being integrated in into the UK? Well, there are several ways that we're, we're working on at the moment. One is via schools, both mainstream schools, special educational needs schools, private schools, the whole, whole range. And we're encouraging schools to try group sessions, small group sessions, as well as individual sessions. But we've also got very proudly got approved by our local councils, so Somerset and Wiltshire County Council. So we can work then through social workers who know families and children that— and often this work is early life trauma that they're dealing with. And so yes, I guess the other major way of getting the work out there is that we're in We're in conversations with the NHS to try to help with some of the CAMHS waiting lists for the young people that either just have to wait for a long time to get to see someone, but often when they come to see somebody, they're sitting in a room face to face with someone trying to find words to explain difficulties. It's hard for even people that are really good with words, let alone those that aren't. And so yeah, we're trying to find a way to, yeah, to encourage referrals to try this type of therapy. And the other thing we're doing is working with the University of Bath to further extend the evidence base of this work. As you mentioned earlier, Ava, it's a lot more developed in Scandinavia, in Germany, and also in the US. And I think here we're a little bit behind on the understanding of the work and its integration into, um, uh, as a good option, a good therapeutic option. I think sometimes people assume it's just a bit of, you know, nice to be around animals, let's just pet them, um, a forest or a forest school at best. Um, and I think that education on how actually this is this is working with really uncovering what's going on in the subconscious and revealing those patterns of behavior so they can start to change, is a big, is a big step that we need, we need to get help with really. There are studies in the UK too, but I feel there needs to be more. So yeah, we're working with Dr. Samah Khan in the University of Bath to, to run a study so we can work really we can become a, I guess, a research center where we can hope we can work with whether it's adults with addiction or young people with anxiety-related disorders. We can actually run some, a full study where we can monitor the outcomes and report on the outcomes. And that, that does still go on with our work. So we always, when we work with people, we always have a very clear view of what their what they're struggling with to start with. And often we'll ask especially young people to take, um, what are called SDQs, Strength and Difficulties Questionnaires, so we can really understand how their issues are presenting. And then we will redo that questionnaire and get feedback from parents, teachers, and the child themselves to see how things have moved. And yeah, I can safely say we have not seen anyone that hasn't gone through at least 3 or 4 sessions usually 6, where there's been significant shifts in behavior and, and well-being. There is, there are a few occasions where somebody comes and it's, it's too much for them because it can be quite exposing. But yeah, it's, I guess that's the major, our major aim is to try to, try to, and try to explain the work so that more people can access it and get benefit from it. And importantly too, it's not therapy. You don't need to be in horse therapy for weeks and weeks and months and months and years. Sometimes one or two sessions is enough to unblock what needs to change. So yeah, we're really passionate about our work. And I guess both from helping people with their healing as well as seeing how actually that relationship with animals can change and evolve. And improve so that we don't just see animals as others that we tell what to do and control and be the boss of. We actually see animals as really key to our understanding of ourselves, and if we just allow them, they have an awful lot to tell us. Yeah, no, I thought— well, I really, I think it's incredible that you've now got you're involved with the University of Bath, that you're working with the NHS and local councils for schools, and you know, also in the private sector for schools. Because when I only— there was only me with you at the track clinic, but when I was in Arizona, and I, you know, I was there for 70 days, so and the barn was on site. That's what they called the area where we— they kept the horses. So there were other people there, some younger than me. I mean, it was— the state law said that, so we had to be 18. We couldn't have anyone younger than 18 with us. There was a separate department for them, but the age went up to I don't know, people in their 70s. So you had this range of— there were 23 of us. We were all doing equine therapy, sometimes in groups, sometimes one-on-one. But every single person— so we all had different problems, different ages, different stages, they have totally different reasons, you know, different in the way that we thought about ourselves communicated. Every single person came back from their barn time just with so much. You could— whether or not they wanted to talk about it, or they had this different stillness about them, their demeanor changed, their eyes look different. I have not met anybody— and they all wanted more barn time. It was definitely the place to go. I was out there and I had no contact with my family really. It was only through emails and no phones or anything, so that was really hard. And there was a midway I had to be given some news, some bad news that, you know, wasn't something I was expecting. So we were going out and about. We had an awful lot of stuff to do. It was a very, very good facility and a great model. I, I think that more needs to be done in the UK to look at successful models like Cottonwood I went to in Arizona. So, um, I mean, we went out, we had little trips out. We went to, um, museum, the Museum of Art. We went to canyons. We you know, not, not a huge amount, but, but once a week we did rocks and ropes. There was an awful lot. So, and there was a huge amount of time for small therapy groups and individual therapy. Now, when I got this news, uh, I thought it was okay. And then we went out to the Tucson Museum of Art, um, which was, was great. And coming back I felt things weren't going right. This information had really hit me. Didn't have my family around me. So the, the people who took us out, she just opened the door of the van when we got back and took me to the horse that I'm— I sort of work with mostly, and that was it. I was just— I broke down. I had my face in this horse's head and I just hung on there. There were no words. I didn't need to say anything. I didn't need to explain what's happened or how I felt, but that honestly was— I don't know how we would have got through it without being just with, um, an equine therapy, uh, animal. So it wasn't even a planned session. They weren't expecting me there, but they knew that that for me was going to be the way that would help me sort of come to terms and recover. And it was, it was, well, every time I went there, everything came back, you know, something was shifted or positive. Might be something that was a little bit difficult for me that triggered to think of, but Certainly, um, that's probably one of the worst moments in my life, and that it was a horse that got me through it. And so I was— I'm so strongly, um, and also working with— I have worked with children for, for 20 years. I was a primary school teacher. That you can struggle sometimes with words when maybe words aren't necessary. And so to go and spend some time with some, some equine, uh, herd like you have, I think it's just got to be something that is promoted now. Um, there is a— the talking therapy is not for everybody, um, time limiting, and you know, all the thing about traveling there and who you're going to see and all that sort of thing. You're not judged by, um, these horses or, or the alpaca. And yeah, I, I think that the work you're doing is great to go and, and, and promote this. And I know that you've worked with, um, sort of, uh, families as well. So it— I don't think I've ever met anyone who it wouldn't benefit to to be honest. Yeah, I mean, and the application is very broad indeed. I guess the approach is always the same, is that you're really just trying to get to the heart of what's going on, and so whether it's a young person, the whole family, you know, a dynamic between two people, a parent and child. Um, and I think you're— when you describe them, you know, not needing the words, I think there's something in this I guess it's that authentic connection that you can have with another, I guess, sentient being who's not demanding anything of you or asking the questions or even read the forms. No, not read the forms. There's something there that's very, very precious and very, um, and then I guess enables you to access those parts that, um, that we don't, we sometimes can't access. Um, but yes, yeah, we, we We've worked in family groups too, which is often very interesting because what happens there in a group is that you're not only— the horses aren't only reflecting what's going on for the individuals, but they're reflecting the dynamic that's at play. Um, and they are so clever at finding exactly that, um, I guess exactly that dynamic that possibly needs shifting or bringing attention to. You know, I've had the horse, I've had, I've had them move people from one side of the paddock to the other, just gently nudging them until, until, until a connection was made that, gosh, that's what I do with my child. I keep pushing, pushing, pushing. You know, I've had times where, where the horses have got very full of energy and needing to play out a kind of you know, some kind of hyperactivity that needed attention and needing— needed some calming. And so yeah, they react incredibly differently depending on who's there. And actually, that was something, Ava, you said a couple of times during your session with us. You said, do they usually do that? Yeah, yeah, do they? Is that just for me? And actually, the answer to that is no, it's always so different. On the person. And actually, um, the alpaca in your session, for example, he is, he is definitely much more flighty than the others. His, his kind of scare response is a much, is much more, or less developed than the others. And it's incredibly unusual for him to lie with someone next to them, to lean up to them, to allow you to lean right on the top of his head, which he actually did. Yeah, he did really like to be touched there. So it's as if they they can sense, I think like people can too, but we've become so good at working it out in our heads that we've actually forgotten that we can sense so much of what people need around us. But I think that's exactly it. They sense what's required and they, and because they are, they feel good in themselves and they know what they feel, they feel listened to and able to step in and do what's required. They can play that out. I'm actually thinking back to your session last week and actually 2 days later we had a session with some young 14, 15-year-olds where, where there was an awful lot of galloping around and spinning and playing, and a very, very different session that, that, um, that related to, to what, what these young people needed. Um, but yeah, I'd be really interested to see what, what happens next time you come over, to see how that need for kind that need for the support and the safety and the lightness too, how that starts to play out. And often the— what happens in a session is usually the trigger for things to start unfolding. And actually the processing, just like in any other kind of therapy, the processing really does start happening after the session where it's, I guess, integrated into life and you are aware, more aware of some of those those patterns and behaviors. Well, I— when I came for my first, um, 2 sessions, so that was over 1 day, um, I, I was pretty exhausted. Yeah. Uh, when I got home, not, you know, not from sort of travel or anything. It was, um, it was a, you know, a sort of, yeah, a physical exhaustion, but It was also quite restful, um, you know, I was quite calm. I felt really calm. And, um, I think for the next couple of days I was probably just needing to go gently, um, that, that was something that I didn't want to, to sort of break that. I wanted to continue it. And then Um, I, I mean, I've sat and thought about it an awful lot, um, each one of those. I'm actually sorry, I haven't actually thought about you an awful lot. Yeah, because I really wasn't aware sometimes of actually even physically where you were, and you were quite far away. It was just me and them. And yeah, totally incredible. And then my going back again for my, my, my final, my third session for this time, and, and knowing them, it was like, oh, hello, you know. Um, and so actually they might not remember you, they might wonder what on earth's going on, but it was— they do, yeah, they do. And it was just Yeah, it was just really like, you know, I felt really calm when I got there. I wasn't, you know, like rushing to get there. I just got there and in the countryside. And it's very rare to have— and I did say to you, I felt a bit selfish, um, having this time to, to sit in the, you know, be in a field with wet feet or whatever and muddy knees and just have this sort of experience that without having— that there really aren't some words for, for what happened there, um, not at all. There's, um, it was absolutely, um, incredible. And I, I so hope that, um, there is going to be more of a focus on this type of therapy and being around animals. I mean, at the moment, actually, my dog has come and sat on my knee. She must have been here for about— been here for about half an hour. And she is my first dog. She's only 6. And she is like my— she is my emotional support animal. When I go out, I go out with, with her. So it's not only horses. I think spending time with, with animals, um, can teach us an awful lot. I mean, she— you want to go out and play, don't you? You want to play cricket in the garden. So, um, and she— I do enjoy playing, and I did enjoy playing, and I think that is one of the things that I got from being, especially with the miniature horse when we're having that little game, you know, I've had people say to me that, you know, from what happened to me, you lost your childhood. Well, I didn't. I did not lose my childhood. There are many, many good things from my childhood where I played and laughed and enjoyed things and achieved. And I call those my threads, and I do repeat things. I like to do things that are fun and make me laugh, and almost like a sort of childlike way, because those are happy times. And I'm still, you know, I am still a child. The child is still in there, and the only thing that's happened is that I've added a few more years on, and now I get called an adult. So I think it's— for me, that was really important, to have that— be lost in a game and not feel self-conscious about it or anything. It was something, you know, if you put, I don't know, two children together, they quickly make up a game, don't they? Without— um, and, and that's what we did. We, we put up this game. In fact, when I saw him after lunch, little miniature pony, uh, horse, he put his face in some mud. He liked his grass a lot, but he obviously missed and got a muddy patch. I said, "Oh, you look like you've got brown lipstick on." And then he was using this mud to put on his side for me then to go and scratch in that area. So it was almost like he'd sort of picked up this mud as an indicator of how we were going to start this game off after lunch. But, you know, it was absolutely incredible. So when you see people, um, so you've got children coming now from schools through the council and through private sector, how, um, how do you plan, um, you know, how when you're going to see them, what they might need, or do you evaluate that as you go along? Uh, yeah, so with when we work in groups Do you mean with groups or individuals? No, either really. Either. Well, yeah, we, we always have a clear view of what, what the, I guess, the difficulties are to start with, but very much the sessions are— we're working very much with what is there in the session and what that person brings. Um, so actually, even though we could also read lots of reports and diagnoses and, and everybody's view on this person, that's actually not that helpful. What's helpful is that we know, you know, what the conditions are, obviously. But actually, too much history means that you're not really working with what they're bringing into that environment. But the way the session will work is that we invite them to start with, when we've gone through a safety briefing about both emotional safety, about when it's too much, they can say step away, as well as a physical safety around, you know, watching where their feet are and not standing directly behind, because the horses are free to— they're at liberty, they're free to kind of go wherever they wish. We then simply invite the young person, the adult, the group of people to basically go to the horses. It's as simple as that. We're not instructing on, you know, go make friends with them, or go and— we're basically basically go with or go to the horses, and we, um, we are then watching and intentionally standing back and watching what that interaction brings. And then at, at times throughout that interaction— so in your session, for example, Eva, you were so immersed in what was going on, it felt really important just to hold that space and let you be in that lovely space. Sometimes, sometimes it's much more relevant to approach again after maybe 10, 15 minutes and just gently ask, ah, so what's, what's happening with, what are the horses, what's happening with the horses now? And what about this one that's over here? And straight away what usually, well, I'm very, I can't even think of a time when this hasn't happened, is that very quickly there's a connection made. So it might be something around, that horse doesn't like me, or that one wants to be with me, or, um, that one's scared, or that one's a bit nervous. And generally what's happening is the person's describing themselves, but through the horses. Um, and quite often this doesn't happen at the beginning of a session, some, but often you can see that it's, um, the person is possibly thinking about it being a session, but Towards the end of the session, it's very usual for someone to say, well, yeah, that's just what my, I don't know, friend at school is like, or my mum is like that to me, or my dad is like that, or my— so they actually— and when that happens, those metaphors, we generally work within those metaphors. So if someone has— it's also the reason why we don't explain at all. And maybe you've only just got the name out Alpaca, I just mean. Yeah, no, we don't. I have only found out today, um, his name, but I didn't really— I like that I didn't know the name. I don't know the name, I don't know the age, I don't know— I don't need to know. They didn't— well, they wouldn't know that about me, so we were really quite, um, level there, weren't we? Right. Well, it's intentional because actually, especially when someone comes back in as weekly sessions, these animals often become metaphors for other people for them, sometimes for them, for themselves or someone they love, but often people in their lives. And actually to have all their history woven into that is just, is just conflicting really. So yeah, they've been called all sorts of things and they've played out all sorts of personalities and, and I guess interactions with the person. And so, yeah, to answer your question about how it works and how we plan, I guess we're only really planning— well, I guess the planning is, is to do with how the session, the previous session has gone. So if there are themes that have come up very clearly, so for example with you, these themes of safety, support, and this play and lightness come up. When you're coming back potentially in the future, we might— we would again look at those themes and potentially have some sense of, okay, so if this isn't addressed again, maybe we could mention it or set this up, like how, you know, and actually bring up some of those words. But we— our model and the model I developed is very much about not not using lots of extra stuff that we don't need. So, um, when I first trained, there was a lot of, you know, using kit, using kind of ropes and poles and cones, and so that people could come and, you know, build stuff that, you know, a young family used to— a family used to work with us where they would build what, what their house was like, and then they'd get the horses to walk around, and it was all still very useful, but actually the more, the more extra stuff there is there, we found that the, the harder it was to get to what was really helpful for the person. Um, and so yeah, I guess we're always really led by what is displayed, what is fed back to the horses from us, and what we're seeing the person doing. It's just, it's just literally an in-the-moment Exactly, and I guess the, the, the, um, where I guess our role as facilitators becomes more integrated in, I guess, the experience with the horses is where, where there's a pattern that's developed that we can see very clearly, but that pattern isn't shifting. So, so say for example, if you came back, Abraham, each next 2 or 3 sessions, very much the same thing was happening or within a session the same thing was happening, then we might, we might bring that to light. We might suggest, we might, um, I guess ask you, had you noticed that and how could that change and would you want that to change? So then we're a little bit more, not quite instructional, but we're, I guess we're kind of enabling that shift to happen. But actually the more and more I understand this work, um, and love this work, the more I realized that the answers are all always in how the animals are reacting. Um, and as facilitators, we obviously write notes after a session and we analyze what's happened and we compare to the week before. And we, um, but actually, and that all needs to happen too, of course, but actually the more, the more allowing we are of, of listening to what the animals are saying, really listening and responding to what they're saying, the quicker the changes for the people and the better the outcomes. So yeah, I guess, I guess it's experiential in nature in that it really— we trust that the healing will come by being in that state of awareness and and really getting the insight as to what's happening with the person. I think— I mean, I agree. Um, I was thinking, I mean, in, in Arizona we, we did have, um, things to make up obstacle courses, you know, that would be, you know, an objective of a planned session. But saying that, you know, doing all those things, um, the, the the most help— well, yeah, it was unplanned when I got some bad news, needed to go see this, this horse, no props, me like, me really not knowing what on earth to do because people I needed to be with I couldn't be with, and that was it. It was an unplanned, unstructured, no props, straight to this horse, didn't even know what had happened. I mean, obviously people who I, I knew, they knew what had happened and they could support me, but not in the same way, or not at all as helpfully, or giving me the strength that I needed at that time. It was that horse, like, in, in that moment. And, um, yeah, you know, yeah, we didn't need all those props. That, that definitely was the thing. And I, and I know, um, I mean, when, when I was there, um, fortunate— I was fortunate that the herd that we had on, we kept, because they do send them off for holidays because it is a full-on residential thing. These horses can get tired, so they do go and get a little break, and they bring some new ones in. Not that I would say that the horses aren't showing any sign of stress or they're uncomfortable with what they're doing, but it is a therapy setting. So how do you manage that with your herd so that, you know, they can have, um, you know, well, time off, I suppose, from— yeah, well, it's a really important question because it's really, um, what, what we, we know is that they, they, they do, they do take on what's in the space, just like therapist takes on what's in the space and need breaks and need relaxation. So yeah, we try to— they always have breaks in between sessions. They never do more than 4, usually 3 sessions a day, and they have break days throughout the week as well. So we pace it, we pace it because after— we noticed after a session, after a day of say 4 sessions, they need the next day off. They need to, need to kind of reboot a little bit. They're also though much better than humans are at actually shaking off the stuff that we are so good at holding on to. Yes. Yeah. Very— we notice in between sessions how their demeanor changes. Immediately the person leaves, they're very different, and often they will roll and they'll yawn and they'll run, or they'll just go to a totally different space in the field. So that they are also really good at regulating. But yeah, it's essential that we're always very, um, attuned to how they are doing. I think you as well, you know, you have to take care of yourself as well when you're, um, you know, dealing with, with this sort of work too. So I think that's very important, um, and I know that you, you do do that. Well, I'm afraid we've— this has gone so fast, we've only got like few seconds left for me to say thank you, Nina, for, for being here. And anybody who's interested, your, your website for the TRAC Clinic, it's, it's very, very informative. It's very— well, you know, I, I found it really helpful, and I've enjoyed looking at it actually since, so I can, um, sort of have a little look at those, the herd. But thank you so much, and I'm looking forward to coming, to coming back at some stage, and then I can also report back to you about that as well for, for my broadcast. Brilliant.