In this inspiring episode, host Judy Mae Murphy sits down with Beverly Evans, an exceptional life coach, to explore themes of change, progress, and personal transformation. Beverly joins the show from her living room with her crochet hook in hand—a perfect metaphor for the episode’s discussion about the multifaceted nature of women’s identities. The conversation delves into why women often feel compelled to present only one aspect of themselves to the world, whether that’s as a mother, businesswoman, or creative, and how this can become both liberating and restrictive depending on the circumstances.
Beverly shares her own remarkable journey from a 15-year-old with minimal qualifications who dreamed of working in the music industry, to becoming deeply embedded in London’s vibrant club scene in her late teens and twenties. The discussion tackles the fascinating concept of masks and personas—how they can be helpful tools for navigating different social contexts, but how they can also become problematic when they rule us rather than serve us. Beverly emphasizes the importance of wisdom and appropriateness when choosing what to share with different audiences, cautioning against the trend of oversharing vulnerability on social media in ways that can damage professional branding and relationships.
Throughout the episode, Judy Mae and Beverly explore how personal transformation is possible for anyone willing to ask better questions and take small, consistent actions toward their dream life. They discuss how our internal state is the biggest predictor of what happens to us externally, and how treating negative emotions as wake-up calls rather than roadblocks can lead to genuine progress and change.
Main Topics
Women often feel restricted to presenting only one aspect of their identity out of necessity, which can be frustrating and limiting to their sense of self
Masks and personas can be useful tools for navigating different social situations, but become problematic when they restrict us rather than liberate us
Beverly Evans' unconventional career began at age 15 without qualifications but was transformed by immersion in London's music and club scene
The importance of wisdom and appropriateness when sharing vulnerable moments—oversharing on social media can damage professional branding and confuse relationships
Personal transformation is achievable through asking better questions and taking consistent small actions toward your goals
Internal state and mindset are the biggest predictors of external success and progress toward living your dream life
Creative pursuits like crafting can serve as important outlets that bridge the gap between different aspects of our identity and personalities
Full TranscriptWelcome, everybody. You're listening to Women's Radio Station. My name is Judy Mae Murphy, and I'm the host of today's s...▼
Welcome, everybody. You're listening to Women's Radio Station. My name is Judy Mae Murphy, and I'm the host of today's show. The show is called Judy Mae Is Listening, because what it's all about is listening to what's going on with you. And then I bring in a guest and create a theme, and we talk about the things that are important to you, not just in order to chat, but in order to transform everything, knowing that the things that we learn can mean that there's a huge difference, that what's not working for you today can be the thing that's working for you really, really strongly in a very, very short, space of time. If it is that you are feeling lonely, if it's that you're feeling broke, if it's that you're feeling like you're on the wrong path, we're going to make sure that you can know that everything can change. No matter what's going on outside, no matter what's going on in the economy, it's all about what's going on inside you. That is the biggest predictor of what is going to happen to you, how close you're going to get to living your dream life. And my personal go that every single listener to Judy May's Listening, everybody that gets to hear us today will be brought closer to that fabulous dream life that you've always wanted. And it might seem sometimes like talking about a dream life is a little bit kind of out there, that it's not practical, that it is almost disrespectful to those who are doing less well than we are, that it is filling people full of false hope that is not the case. I am absolutely practical, absolutely realistic about what is possible and what is not possible. And I'll tell you what is possible. A lot more than a lot of people think we have time. We're still here. We are making sure that we take care of things, that we get ourselves to the next level, that we get that information, that we are asking ourselves better questions. Questions like, what are the small things that I can do today that'll make that little bit of difference? Where can I go for my information, that will mean that I am able to know what to do. What is it I can do if I find I'm not following through? All these things are absolutely answerable. And when you start to live in that way, things really do transform. As many of you who are regular listeners know, I've done that for my life. In my 20s, I suffered from depression. I was on every kind of antidepressant that there was. I got through that and now I'm just one of the happiest people alive. Like my default setting every single day are things like curiosity and joy and elation and calm and, you know, all those really good things. Now does that mean that I never feel down? Not at all. We get those negative feelings that are kind of a wake up call. We've got to treat them as a wake up call. So if right now you're feeling not so good, if you're feeling angry, if you're feeling resentful, if you are feeling abandoned, if you are anxious, panicked about something, that's just your brain trying to get all of your attention. And what we're going to do is we're going to make sure that you are starting to talk back to that brain and say, you know what, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. And I've got this. I'm doing the little things that I need to do every day to make sure that I'm safe and to make sure that I'm progressing. Because at the end of the day, progress is what it's all about. And today's show is about change and progress. And we have, as well as in our slightly different studio this week, normally we're in our lovely cozy little place in Covent Garden. This week we've discovered that myself and our associate producer, Elspeth are in our respective bedrooms in different parts of the uk. And that our technical producer, Melis, of course, is in her home studio. And that our guest today, who is Beverly Evans, someone who I just adore. And you're going to find out exactly why she is really set up in her living room and she's set up with a crochet hook. So that's going to be something that we're going to be asking about. Like, what is someone who is as cool and trendy and feisty as Beverly Evans doing with a crochet hook? Something that we might more normally associate with someone 30 years older and with a very different kind of outlook. But what we are going to be talking to Beverly about because she is an amazing coach. A lot of people say to me, Judy May, what coaches do you admire? And they usually expect me to come out with the huge, big household names. But as we know, if someone is really good at marketing themselves and presenting themselves, they are often not as good at the deeper stuff. And let me tell you, when it comes to having a really good grip on reality and change and what can happen and recovery and all Those good things. You really cannot get a better life coach than Beverly Evans. Beverly, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Judy Mae. It's great to be on here with you. I just smile so big every time I hear your voice because, you know, Beverly and I know each other socially and I get to just completely surrender myself for hours on end over yummy meals to listening to what Beverly has to say about the world. And so I want to give you listeners a little bit of that today. So, Beverly, first of all, before we dive into our whole theme of change, tell us what is happening with the crochet hook. Well, at the moment it's turning itself into a shawl. Craft has been something that I have done since I was a small child. It's something that I can't necessarily tell you when it started, my love of it or why, but it's there and has always been there. The desire to create and make things. And in my younger years I would turn it to my advantage. It would be something that I could do that people weren't expecting me to do. And it was almost like a calling card going, I don't look like a knitter or a crocheter and actually I'm sitting on a stage in a nightclub with dancers around me knitting, but that's me, that's what I'm doing. And so it was something that could bridge a gap between what people saw on the outside and what they were expecting. And me kind of having a calling card going, don't expect what you see on the outside necessarily. Because don't you find that a lot of women, they are what's on the outside. So you know, you were always this kind of cool, you know, on the scene in London, rock chick, you know, working around that industry, being around those really exciting people. You were that. And then also you were a crafter, someone who wanted to physically create these lovely soft things. Do you think that that's something that a lot of women have, that they feel that they're maybe only presenting as a mother or only presenting as a, as a kick ass businesswoman or only presenting as the girlfriend of. And so and they feel that they, that if they were to present something else that there would be the likelihood that they would lose their branding or lose their self identity? Yeah, I think there's two things there, Judy May. I think that a lot of women feel very frustrated that perhaps they are only presenting one aspect of themselves out of necessity. Because if you are the mother of young children, then that's what you're Known as. That's likely to be your social circle. And. And I think a lot of women can find that hugely frustrating that they are perceived as this thing. They are the mother of young children when, my goodness me, they might have been trapeze artists in the circus before. But I think as well that actually, very often we. Women, men as well, I'm sure. But women certainly will pick a topic, and for some people, it will be, I'm a mother with young children, or I'm a crafter, or I am this amazing businesswoman, and they will just present that one thing very deliberately. And I wonder sometimes whether that is a mask for all kinds of other stuff and can become restricting for them as well. So talk to me about that mask. Why do you think that women can wear that as a mask? I think we're all capable of putting masks on. I think we all put masks on every single day, depending on who we're with, who we're talking to, how we feel inside that day. Those masks can be incredibly helpful, and they can be something that can actually liberate you to behave in a way that you wouldn't be comfortable with in other circumstances. It's when those masks become a hindrance to us and when they start to rule us that you've got a problem. The thing that that reminds me of is recently on Facebook, I've been looking at other coaches and speakers, women coaches, and what some of them did was they took off the mask completely and they said, I'm, you know, that they were filming themselves crying and having a terrible day and saying, you know, I need people to. And they, you know, they were, as I say, took off the mask completely. And we're just showing that aspect of them. And I felt that that wasn't a super smart way to go, because, you know, these. These people that they're talking to on social media aren't their inner circle. It's not their friends. They. They do have branding that then gets damaged when people sort of think, oh, okay, the role has changed. Now I have to look after her. I have to be the sensible one for her. And I think that there's a more elegant way to do that, that, you know, as coaches, we can, you know, say, hey, like anyone, I can have a bad day too, and here's what I do to turn it around. So I think that's really interesting, what you were saying about the usefulness of masks, that it's not just about saying, hey, I'm really honest. This is exactly what I'm going through. Because we only have space to present a certain amount to people, and people also see us in a kind of a shorthand. Would you agree with that? I completely agree, Gigi May. I think you're absolutely right. And I think a lot of time, these masks or these Personas we put on, the appropriateness is to do with the time and the place, isn't it? And I think that sometimes inappropriate use of that, as you say, can be incredibly damaging. But it can also, if you get it right, it can be hugely generous, hugely generous to show somebody your vulnerable side in the hope of them being able to use that to benefit themselves. But inappropriate use of it can be absolutely disastrous and can lead to people just feeling very confused about why somebody's behaving in a way that they wouldn't expect, and it can spoil the relationship as well. So wisdom has to always be used in these situations. Not an easy thing to do, though. So with this image of you sitting in nightclub, maybe knitting a little something, let's fill people in on what your background was, because I want people to see just how courageous and thoughtful and committed you had to be to make the life change that you made. So talk us through a little bit about what your life would have been like, say, 30 years ago, 20 years ago, and then what was it about that that wasn't enough or that needed fleshing out? Wow. Okay. So, yes, I had a colorful career life. I left school at 15 with very few qualifications by today's standards, and my goal had always been that I wanted to work in the music industry. I couldn't sing a note, I couldn't play an instrument, I couldn't dance. So I was never going to be on the. On the front side of things, but I really, really wanted to work in the music industry. And there was no clear route to do that, and certainly not at the school I was at. So life took me in different directions. To start off with a couple of college courses. At one point I thought, I'll be a graphic designer, because then I can design record sleeves, and that will take me into the music industry and just meeting people and getting very heavily involved in the club scene in London at the time, in my late teens and early 20s, was the game changer and put me in front of a load of people that I wouldn't have met otherwise and that were able to help me, some of them along the way, others provided contacts. And I used all of that in order to get what I wanted, which was to work within the music industry. A lot of luck Some pushing, but living in London and frequenting the nightclubs pretty much five, six days a week, gigging, seeing bands, working briefly for Oxygen Records, then working for a company called Radioactive Records. Life was frenetic, it was busy. It was full of all kinds of things, alcohol being a big one. Extreme dressing was another one, which was tremendous fun. I can't tell you. Tell us a little bit about the extreme dressing. So what sort of, what sort of years were we talking about here? Okay, so probably between the ages of 18 and 20, 25, 26 kind of age. We, we have a mutual friend and we do indeed. He always tells the story of the first time he met me. I walked into a nightclub wearing nothing slightly exaggerated, I have to say, was always fully covered, but it might have just been that I was covered in fishnet or lace. Always black, obviously, because you have to maintain standards, right? You have to have black. Yeah, so. So that, that was, that was it. So it was basically my uniform was fishnet tights, some form of leotard or corset, and always, always long evening gloves, be it black velvet or black lace. So yeah, that was, that was kind of my chosen uniform of the time. Oh, that's very, very much living, you know, in the way that you had chosen to live. But a thing that really interests me about that is that you got yourself physically to where you needed to be, that it was really key for you that you were actually in the clubs, you were in London, you weren't kind of just sitting outside London and trying to make a difference from a distance, that you were actually kind of in the physical arena. Do you think that that is still as important today to be in a physical arena? Or, or do you think that being just in the arena via the Internet is enough? I guess that depends entirely on what you want to do. I think for me, on a very personal level, I like to be physically immersed in whatever I'm going to be doing. So I would much, much rather be sitting in a studio with you. Now that would be delightful. But, you know, you have to utilize what's around you. And just going back to that idea of, you know, of being heavily immersed in something that I desperately had wanted and wondering, where did that change? Where did that need change? It makes me think of when you're. I'm sure lots of people have similar experiences. When I was a child, my go to thing was if only I had a dog, then I would be happy forever and I would never need anything else in my life. Now there are some dog owners who would claim that? Yes, that is the case. I'm sure there are. But guess what happened? We got a dog. And was I the happiest person in the world who never ever wanted for anything again? No, absolutely not. The same was true of the music industry. I had everything that I wanted and everything that I pushed for and worked towards. But perhaps, I wonder now, looking back, I question whether I had such narrow band of what I wanted. I want to work in the music industry. I didn't push it any further than that. That was my goal and I got that goal. And did you? You were working, like, for. It was for a record label, right, At a very high level, and you were just right in there mixing and mingling. Everybody on the scene knew who you were, and, yeah, you had definitely achieved your goal. How long did it feel good for? And did it start getting stale? I don't know how good it felt at all, actually. I mean, it felt good in that. In that I knew I was heading in a direction that I wanted to. And I think that I. I felt that other people would look in from the outside and go, wow, I want what she's got. But actually, when I question now whether what I had then was what I really needed, and I think there's a distinction there between what you want and what you need, I question whether it was. I mean, it was. I'm not putting it down. It was an amazing opportunity. I met some extraordinary people. I had some extraordinary life experiences. I've got some great stories to tell, but possibly not on air. Is there one that you could. You can't say that to me. Is there one that you could tell? Is there one that you could tell on air? Perhaps one of the less salacious ones. Let's come back to that. I'll have to think. Right, okay, we'll have to run that by our lawyers who are sitting in their bedrooms. Yes, yes. So, yeah, you know, it was amazing. It was fantastic. It was glamorous. And there were gigs, there were after shows, there were hotels, there were parties, there were glamorous people. But actually, was that everything that I wanted in life? And I think the answer to that was clearly no, because. Am I still doing it? No. Are people that I worked with at the time still doing it? Some of them, yes, they are. So it would be interesting to hear from them another time whether that's because they truly, truly attained what they wanted, or are they actually on some kind of treadmill that they're not able yet to get off. I wonder. That is absolutely Fascinating. So if you just joined us, you're listening to women's radio station. This show is called Judy Mae is Listening. I'm Judy Mae Murphy and today I'm joined by, by Beverly Evans, who is a life coach with an extraordinary past and a woman who is not afraid of reinvention. So, Beverly, you were saying about how you felt like suddenly it just wasn't enough and was it gradual, this idea that you needed to change? Because I think that's something a lot of women kind of go through and maybe some feelings of, you know, am I being ungrateful here? It could be that they sort of say, oh, I just really want to be married, never feel family. And then they have that and they're like, oh gosh, that's not enough. And then they second guess that feeling of it's not enough. And they think that they somehow should be satisfied and they try to move away from the idea of a career or likewise, if there's somebody who, you know, has. I myself always traveled like I've been, And now, you know, it's a bit tricky to sort of say to myself over the last few years that I'm happier with visiting fewer places. And you sort of worry about, does that make it wrong, what you did before? And also does that affect your personal branding with yourself, your self identity? Like who, like for Judy Mae Murphy, like, who am I when I'm not, you know, talking on some big stage in five different countries over a two week period? Who am I? Is it okay? Am I still here? Am I still seen? Am I still of value if I start to make different choices? Is that something that you went through at some point? I think I went through it probably at every stage of my life. And I think I probably still am going through it because life changes, life moves on. And I think, particularly when you're younger, I don't know if you experienced this, but I had a real sense of when I get there, everything will be okay. And it goes back to that. If I had a dog, then everything would be as I want it when I get there. And I hadn't defined where there was. So I just kind of thought that the obvious ones are have the career that you dream of, have someone that you fall madly in love with and have children with, and in my case, move to the country with. And, and that was. That was great. And then I guess, I guess the reason why I say I'm still in that space is because I ended up leaving the music industry. I did fall in love with a Rather lovely chap. Very lovely chap who I've met. Yeah. And we did, we did move to the country and we have a delightful 16 year old daughter together and then you go, oh, I've ticked all the boxes and I'm not dead yet. What am I going to do now? What is the point of me now? And I think, certainly, wow, that's huge. What is the point of me now? Something that so many women wake up with and go to bed with this idea. What is the point of me and what is the point of me now? At different stages? Maybe when the kids leave home or maybe when, you know, maybe if the business doesn't survive or. Yeah. And did you back even when you had. So what happened when you decided to leave the music industry? Did you decide to leave music industry and to move from London at the same time or were those different decisions? No, it was a little bit of a whirlwind as life sometimes can be. I was made redundant from my position, the last music business position I held and I had just literally got married, I'd got married the month before, got made redundant, decided that actually I'd had enough of the music industry at that stage and started to work in the charity sector. And almost simultaneously a job was advertised in another charity doing a similar thing, but it was down in the middle of nowhere and I never lived in the countryside, I barely visited it. If I didn't open my curtains and see lots of buildings then I would become quite irrationally nervous. I've only ever lived in big cities but this opportunity came up and I thought, gosh, I'm just going to go for it. And I did. And I got through interview number one, which is great. Completely panicked because I thought, right, in the last couple of months I've got married, been made redundant, started working in a totally different sector, bought a flat with my, with my husband. I can't cope with another life change. So actually one year later the same job was re advertised because it hadn't worked out with the person they eventually hired. And I thought, okay, so that's telling me to do something. I reapplied, I was offered the job, I can remember it really clearly. I picked up the phone, my husband was standing next to me. I said thank you very much, yes, I'd like to accept, that's great. Put the phone down and looked at my husband and went, what have we done now? We're gonna have to move to the countryside. So it was a little bit scary. And we were in our 20s, late 20s, by that stage, but just kind of thought, yeah, let's try it, let's just, let's just give it a go. And without much thought. I'm just wondering about that year when you went from working in the music industry to working in the charity sector. What did that do? Were there moments of oh no, I'm not cool anymore, or I'm not even, I'm not valid anymore. Not that you know that those two things go hand in hand, but what was it like for you? Or was it just such a relief at that point that you actually quite enjoyed it? No, it was, it was definitely, where do I value myself? Do I have that calling card that goes, look at this, I work in the music industry, I don't need to say any more about myself. And that had gone so that although it was me that gave it away, it's still gone. And so when you meet a new person and they say, oh, what do you do? And you say, I work for an animal charity, there's no backstory with that. You're just some kind of bland person. None of that is true, none of it. But that's how I felt. And I think that that shows an inadequacy in my own self valuing process, doesn't it? You kind of say, oh, I need to have this calling card that tells you everything that you need to know about me and you're going to be impressed versus actually I'm a real person. I've got many facets, I've got many abilities, I've had many experiences. I hopefully many experiences ahead of me. But what I haven't got was that valuing process. Yeah, that's so interesting that that really is what we're conditioned to in Western society is this kind of totem pole idea with, you know, fame and glitz kind of being at the top of the totem pole. And that if you are, you know, doing something that's more worthy, you're kind of sitting lower down on the totem pol. Which is kind of a change that we've seen this year. The idea of the key workers, the people who stack the shelves in supermarkets, the nurses who sit there with people as they are ill and dying, that those people are more valued. But certainly up until this year it was a really fast track way to feel accepted, to be able to say something like, I work in the music industry or you know, I do this. Like for me, certainly I used to sort of be on a different television show somewhere in America on every given week for years. And you do Kind of end up sort of wondering, well, who am I in all this? Did you. So when you moved to the countryside, what was that like for you? Was it even just physically you sort of say that you're used to, you know, opening the curtains and seeing all the buildings. What was it like? I imagine opening the curtains and seeing a field of sheep. I mean, how was it, Was it a novelty initially or was it something that you had to get used to? Well, I think for the first, probably five years and possibly longer than that, my husband and I would go out into the garden and hear the donkeys, the sheep or the owls who sing and we just giggle and go, we live in the country. How ridiculous is that? My husband is also music business. He still works in the music industry. And it was so unlike us. It was so unlike us. So in a way, when we did this thing, we were one of the first of our group of peers to actually do that. Now a lot have followed. Not to the same part of the world as us, but a lot of people have followed on and done that. So in a way, that was yet another new mask, wasn't it? Because it was a new look. I'm cool. So to all the people who worked in the music industry, we suddenly went, yeah, we've moved to the country now. We make jam, it's great. And they all went a little bit like, what's the guy from Blur? Alex. Alex James, who, you know, move to the country and makes cheese. So you were kind of like a version of that. We were. And everyone thought it was marvellous. And many people have followed suit, not necessarily because we did, but because I think if you have the opportunity as you go on in your life, you want different things. And this has presented itself as something to do. And we, so we kind of, for the first 10 years or so, we kind of walked around as if we were still music industry but just playing at being in the country and making jam. And then we suddenly thought, oh, actually we. The realization came that we were now middle aged and living in the country and making jam, which is what 90% of the people who lived around us were also doing. There was nothing cool about it either. To the people, what was that like in terms of having suddenly you're just like, oh, I'm a, you know, I'm middle aged and I'm. And I'm a mum. What, you know, what kind of shifts happened there? Huge shifts. Absolutely huge shifts. It reminds me very much of my, of my dancing days and my clubbing days and putting on those thigh high boots and then putting them on every night of the week to putting them on three nights of the week to putting them on maybe once a month to actually go, yeah, I'm just taking a break from clubbing. Except that the break has now been five years. Although I do hope that you're wearing your thigh high boots and your leotard and your. And your mesh today for us. Right, yeah, of course, absolutely. Yes. And the gloves, you know, for the school run. It's great. If you ever need a little dash of feeling special. I think everybody needs a bit of glitter and glamour, don't they? But. But that loss of identity, Judy May, is something that I think we all face. But maybe people don't necessarily always recognise it. They might perceive it as boredom or they might perceive it as dissatisfaction, but actually that solidity inside ourselves that goes, it's okay. And you've been through change before and this is just another change and we have to work this out. It can be accessed by everyone, but it's not always recognized as A, being needed or B, being there. So, yeah, huge loss of identity after a while. And do you feel that that's what a midlife crisis is? A loss of identity and sort of the ensuing panic? I wonder whether the phrase midlife crisis is not always helpful because honestly, I think I had one such crisis as a teenager, my 20s and one in my 30s. But yes, I think everything does kind of come to a natural halt when you do reach those sort of middle years. And a lot of that has to do certainly for women. I think a huge of that amount of that has to do with women who are privileged enough to raise a family. And that is your whole job for a while, whether you're still working full time and having a brilliant career at the same time. I can't imagine how difficult that is and admire every woman who manages to do that. But there is still a loss at the point where your children start to need you less. And that loss might become as a relief at certain stages of your child and children's lives. But at some point you have a job which is to raise a human being. And actually what happens then is you get made redundant because that human being has been raised, you've done your job, and that feeling of redundancy is quite difficult to deal with. I think a lot of people experience that. And that's where reinventing yourself is something that you need to do. Yeah, getting creative around it rather than just sort of glumly surrendering to it, you know, I'd love to do. I'd love to bring in our associate producer, Elspeth. Many of you know Elspeth, and those of you who listen regularly, and if you're new to. If you just stumbled across this, then you may or may not know that this is women's radio station. You're very, very welcome here. This is a home for you. This is a place where we discuss things that really matter to women. We make sure that we. We take care of you so that you can take care of yourself. And, Elspeth, you had a really good question there about finding the strength to combat insecurities. Yes, hello. So I was just wondering, how did you, like, realize you have lost your identity? And I feel when I kind of lost my way, I start to become quite insecure, and I start to go, oh, well, you know, I can't do that. I can't do this. How did you combat that kind of negativity? If you did gain any and find yourself again? If that makes sense? Yes. No, it makes perfect sense. I think my own personal experience of this is ongoing, and I kind of hope it will be ongoing until I die, because I think the point at which you feel you've arrived, you stop traveling. I think that a general grumpiness had descended over me in stages, and that you end up being in a position where you're not satisfied. What I describe as feeling itchy on the inside. You're not satisfied, you're not happy. And at that point, it's really easy to start looking around externally and going, I can't stand the way my husband leaves his socks on the bedroom floor. And that needs to change because it drives me mad. And if I wasn't being driven mad by that, then everything would be fine. Or, you know, I can't bear doing this school run any longer. You know, we need to find. She needs to grow up and. And not need to be on the school run anymore or, you know, whatever it is. You start looking at these external irritations and saying, that's my problem. That's my problem. That's my problem. But actually, again, coming back to that theme of masks, very often those things can be masking what you're really feeling and thinking inside. And so I had to sit myself down, take myself into a corner, and have a stern word with myself and say, right, what are you really feeling? And are you really feeling that? And then why. So the example would be, you know, I'm in a rage, I'm hot, I'm bothered, I'm slamming The front door, I've got bags of shopping in each hand. It's all just too much. I'm feeling angry. But actually, when you sit down, you realize that the anger is a mask for something else. What am I really feeling? I'm feeling not angry. I'm feeling frustrated. What am I frustrated about? I'm frustrated because actually allowed my life to become. Doing the shopping, doing the school run, doing this, doing that, and it's not meeting my internal needs. I love the fact there, Beverly, that you said, you know, I'm. That you just. You took the full responsibility there. And it really reminds me of this gorgeous quote that many know by Anais Nin where she said, I'm restless. Things are calling me away. My hair is being pulled by the stars again. And I think often our hair is being pulled by the stars. And, you know, rather than enjoying that, celebrating that and going with it, we kind of just go, ouch, who's pulling my hair? And don't take full command of the opportunities that we have. What do you imagine, Beverly, is going to be the next stage for you? Do you see the next stage as being something that is more about an inward journey or more about going out into the world and experiencing things, or a little mixture of the two or three? Will you not know until it happens? I think the inward journey began for me some years ago, which is. Which has led me to where I am now. I think that that is going to very much continue because it has to. Otherwise you end up being in that static place again, where all the external irritations are the only things you can see. But I think that because I have become much more aware of me, then it gives you an ability to become much more aware of people around you. And that awareness leads you to watch and to be curious and to wait. And it's almost like you read between the lines, you see the spaces instead of seeing what's happening. And when people are coming to you and saying, oh, this happened, that happened. This is my situation. This is the conversation I had. They're hot, bothered, they're angry, or they're upset. Excuse me, voice is going there. But all these things are happening for them. What I've learned to do, because I've been doing it to myself, is to listen to what they're not saying, listen to the bits in between that isn't happening for them. Then actually, very often all you need to do is just reflect that back to them, and people will go, wow, that's really insightful. Or that's kind of oh, you have some sixth sense there. Actually, it's not. It's listening to the bits that are screaming and they're very often the bits that aren't being said. Wow, I love that. Yeah. The idea that you're sort of, you know, listening for the missing. Because it's the missing in all of us. That is the, that causes us pain and stops us from moving forward. Yes. Yeah, that's, that's you. You've hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what it is. What's missing. What do I need here? And if you could, you know, sit down and coach the 22 year old version of you, like we all know that you can sort of say, oh, I wouldn't change anything because then I wouldn't be the person I am today. But putting that aside, if you came across someone who was very, very like you, what advice would you give to the 22 year old version of you? Oh, gosh, so much. But I think the key one for me is honesty. And that honesty has to start inside. There was a lot of external dishonesty when I was young. You know, there was that kind of whole touch me, I'm aloof, you can't reach me. When actually really what I was going was, please will somebody just recognize who I am instead of, instead of being put off by this mask that I'm throwing out there. So honesty with the people around you, but more importantly, honesty with yourself. And that's the thing, I think, that has led me to be interested in coaching, to be interested in speaking with people and dealing with people is the human ability for self deception is absolutely enormous. It's huge and it's dominant. Gosh. And sometimes it's really hidden and unrecognized by people as well. So being something that Elspeth probably recognizes. Elspeth, as our resident young person, do you feel, do you recognize that? Do you feel that there's a lot more pressure on people of your generation, too, of your age to, you know, make sure that they are wearing the right mask? Or do you think that that's something that isn't so prevalent these days? Yeah. Without going too, too deep into it, there's definitely a imposterous syndrome. I think absolutely everybody feels everybody wears a mask that they're putting out there because they're too scared that their real self won't be, you know, seen as cool or seen as, you know, the right fit or anything. And personally, whenever I try to wear a mask to fit in, I just get it completely wrong. And I go, why do people like me? And I go, well, it's because I'm not being myself. So how can they like you if you're not showing up as you? Yes, yes. So it's definitely. Yeah, I definitely relate to that in the sense that I have worn the wrong mask many a times. Many a times. I think a lot has to do with the fact that, you know, when you're younger you are undefined, that you can't say I am a this, I am a novelist, I am a musician, I am a, you know, because it's still developing and that maybe I am just a mess. Yeah, you're so nice and. And then later on in life it becomes an issue of maybe perhaps that you're over defined. You know, I am a, you know, mother of a teenager and Beverly, how would you feel about that? Do you feel that maybe we do become over defined? And because I find a lot of women, our age group, a lot of women in their 40s and 50s, they, they often lead with their CV. They will let you know everything. I mean I've even done it on this call. I've let everybody know that I've traveled extensively, I've let everybody know that I've been on TV a lot and on very big st. Do you feel that we maybe over define ourselves by our achievements and if we do that or when we do that, does that then get in the way of us redefining ourselves? Yeah, I think it certainly can. I think that self definition is important because you don't want people to think that you are just one aspect. But it's when, as I said at the beginning, it's when it becomes a hindrance to you rather than a useful tool that you know that something's gone a little bit wrong. A thing that I do, which is at the beginning of each year when I'm, you know, sitting down, I do a whole day of goal setting and you know, capturing what was great about the year. And sometimes I'm with another person and usually I do it on my own, take myself off somewhere gorgeous, I'll book into a stunning hotel. And it's a thing that I do and I think I've done in the last few years is I've taken everything off the table. I've said to myself, I'm not going to just presume that I want to keep being a broadcaster, I'm not going to presume that I want to keep being a coach, that I'm going to really look at absolutely everything. And it's Very, very scary thing to do. Now over the last few years, most of those things are things I've chosen again. And I know that people who are in very wonderful marriages, they say that they do that. They think about, am I choosing this person again? And not just rejecting them because they feel angry about the socks on the floor or what have you. But I think that that can be a quite useful way to approach things, is, well, if I did have an absolutely blank slate, because a lot of women who are happily married will report that they would actually choose their spouse again. They, you know, even. Even if there was someone more glittery or, you know, someone who was just a genius at picking up socks, that if that person was presented to them, that they, that they wouldn't take it. And I think that that's quite comforting because it can help you to see that you're actually choosing a lot more than you think you are. Because, you know, when, when you've been living in a certain way for a long time, you forget that you have chosen it. You forget that daily you are still choosing that. That you're not choosing something else. So by default, you are choosing what you have. Yeah, I think that whole choice thing is such an interesting topic because we forget that we have choice. We forget that we. We are able to choose to stay with someone or to not. And yeah, I get what you're saying, that by not making a decision, your default position is you're choosing it. But I think sometimes we forget that actually we can actively choose something. And a popular phrase in our house is, my husband is incredibly helpful and will often say, do you want me for anything? Do you want something? And I'll say, no, I don't want. Sorry. He'll ask if I need something, do you need something from me? Do you need me to do? Do you need any help from me? Do you need. My response to that will always be, I don't need you, but I do want you. And it. It's making that choice and knowing that you have a choice to make rather than you're stuck in, you're stuck on the treadmill. And if you stuck on that treadmill, whether it's job, marriage, how you spend your day, actually decide, okay, for now, being on the treadmill helps because I have to, because I have to do the school run and the shopping. But I'm choosing that today. And I might not choose it in 2 years, 3 years, 10 years, 10 minutes, and not blowing up the treadmill just because you're a little bit dissatisfied in that moment. I think that happens to an awful lot of people, especially Glade. Let's blow up the treadmill. And it can be hugely liberating, but it can be massively destructive. And when you blow something up, there's shrapnel and others get caught in that too. So you have to be really careful about when to hit that dynamite plunger. It's so true. I had a friend actually in Dublin, and he. At middle age, he kind of became dissatisfied with his marriage of 20 years, and he ended up with a friend of mine who, you know, she was much younger than him and they have been very happily married for X number of years. But he did say to me at one point that he wishes he had stuck in his original marriage, that he could have made that work, that he could have, you know, caused less hurt and also found a way to be happy himself. And I think these days we are maybe a little less. I know, Beverly, you've used the word patience a lot during this call. I don't even know if you are aware that that's a word that you use. And it's something that I know that I'm having to get better at over the years, but I think it's something that, you know, because people are so used to being promised things instantly, that perhaps it is something that we don't value as much as we could. Yeah, I think that I'm probably very impatient by nature, and that's why it's become something that's important to me is to recognize that sometimes you can't have it now. Sometimes you have to say, I'm not necessarily at my full potential or my full happiness, but for right now, this is what I need to be doing. Goodness me. Easy to say. Very difficult to do. And then how does that expand out when you're talking about transformation? Being patient within transformation. Oh, gosh, the whole butterfly and chrysalis effect there, isn't it? Being patient in transformation is vital because otherwise you're going to be trying on pair of shoes after pair of shoes after pair of shoes, and you're never going to find that because you might have been too quick to discard the pair that you loved that you thought might rub, for example. I think that patience, like any tool, is fantastic. It can be incredibly useful when it tips over into procrastination, when it tips over into fear. I'm being patient, actually. No, you're not. You're too frightened to move. That's when it becomes not a tool and it becomes a cage. And again, that's where the wisdom comes in. And sometimes that wisdom can only come in with experience. It's taken me a lot of years to recognize that I have all sorts of problems. They're not external, not all of them, that's for certain. And that the person that can be in control of that is me. Because actually I have got that control. I just haven't accessed it and used it for some reason. And being patient in that learning process, I just want to be there. I want to be there, I want to get there. I want to then just relax and enjoy the rest of my life. But growing older means that you realize that it's not that simple and that things carry on and carry on changing throughout life. And if you don't adapt to that and make sure you have a jolly good time while you're doing it, then you're going to get to the end. You will get there and it's going to be quick. And I imagine as well that, you know, I just think that's brilliant, this idea of, you know, when is it, when are you being patient and when are you just kind of like sitting in the mud? And also just in a very practical way, I know for a lot of my clients that sometimes there's more internal change that needs to happen. And being patient through that. Like, if I've got a client, let's say a woman who really hasn't been looking after her health for a great many years, she's been eating processed food, she hasn't been working out, she's been drinking alcohol, alcohol every night and what have you. And she now is quite overweight and quite unhealthy. And so for her, for women who are expecting that they're going to see the results on their physical body immediately, it can be a little bit disconcerting. It can be a little bit deflating when they're like, hold on, I've been to four yoga classes in the last two weeks and I've been eating a salad every day and I've stopped having my wine in the evening. Why am I not slim and gorgeous and just sort of knowing that maybe you won't for a very long time? Maybe it will be the actual cells healing, but knowing that it is coming, that you're not stuck, it kind of like reminds me of what you said about the school run. Like, the school run is for now. This body shape is for now. But the thinking has already changed and you're already putting things in place. You're already training, whether that training your body or training in a new career or training your own wisdom on a daily basis, that just. Just doing that and just staying in that arena, staying on those tracks, really is all we need to do. But so often, you know, we do sort of think that that means it's not working, rather than, well, this is part of it working. The fact that right now you might feel like you don't want to do the school run. It doesn't mean that motherhood's not working. And it doesn't mean that the next, you know, the next manifestation of you, if you like Beverly, doesn't mean that that's not happening. Yeah, absolutely. There's lots of work you can do while you're locked into the routine that you have that you're. You're not so happy with. And that discouragement of, yeah, I'm really gonna do this and I'm gonna do that diet, and I've been doing it for a week and, you know, I haven't got the body shape I want yet. That has to be tempered with realism, because it does not matter how long I diet and work out for, I am never going to be 5 foot 8 and slender in the leg. I am just not, because that's not my shape. So that realistic achievement of what is possible for you is important to recognize as well. But I think before you recognize that, you have to kind of go, I'm okay, but I'm okay with that. And that is such a difficult place to be. And for anybody listening, I don't want to give anybody the impression that I'm there because I'm absolutely not. What I am is aware of where I'm trying to get to. And the most useful piece of advice I was given was question, question, everything. And I think that for me has been part of the transformation. When I listen to people with bad stories, I cry. And I said, gosh, that's going to be really difficult if I'm helping people with issues and problems. And this person said to me, yeah, I would question that. And I said, well, it's just because I'm. I have a lot of empathy. I feel other people's feelings. And they just nodded and went, yeah, question it. And they were absolutely right. So asking those questions and then asking further questions and further questions until you get to that little tight bit that's the true answer and not the answer that you're telling yourself and questioning intelligently and not just, you know, asking questions like, why is this happening to me? Why isn't this person doing this for me? And that is something that sort of comes with age, I think, and also with coaching. I imagine both of us are huge fans of coaching. We both know that neither of us, without the guidance of others, would have been in the very privileged positions that we're in today, where we get to live a lot of our lives in the way that we would like to lift them ways that we've chosen. And also, I think that's another point that you made, Beverly, that I think is hugely important, is the importance of self acceptance in the transformation process. That it's not just all about, okay, let's just do the new, let's do the new, let's do the new. But actually acknowledging what's here right now is in fact wonderful and change can happen. But you know that wherever I'm going to, I'm also going to be okay when I get to that place that I am good enough. Because I think a lot of if you are trying to transform from a place of self criticism and beating yourself up and trying to get away from who you are today, that clenched energy is going to make the transformation a lot more difficult. Yeah, definitely. And I think that if you, if you really, really want change, there's no point in changing all of the external stuff because the internal will remain the same. So that questioning, and I thank you so much for pointing out the difference. I love that. The idea of just throwing yourself on the floor and hitting your fists and bawling, why? Why, ladies? That's not gonna work. You need to really ask yourself, what am I feeling? Why am I feeling it? Is that really what I'm feeling? And where does that come from? And that's, that's part of the process of real change is finding out what needs to change. Yeah. Sometimes even, you know, going right into the past in order to create a better future. I think that in our industry, there are a lot of people who say, you know, you know, don't look at the past. That's not where, that's, that's not where you live anymore. And it's kind of like, well, I'm more of the idea of. William Faulkner, the novelist said, you know, that the past isn't dead, it's not even past. And so, you know, as part of that looking at what's going on for you right now and what went on to you before, where does that come from? And that that then will necessitate or enable the change that will bring you into that next place. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the most misused phrases is, well, we are where we are. And it's used as a kind of a get out clause for all kinds of bad behavior, bad habits. Yes, we are where we are. Yes, we do have to move forward. If we don't know how we got to where we are, then we're going to be doomed to keep repeating those patterns, repeating those mistakes again and again and again and be locked into those cycles that so many of us find ourselves in. Where we go, oh, I'm not happy. I don't like this. I want out. And then suddenly there's no way out because you have to change things and look at why you are where you are. So I'm curious, if the 22 year old you was to come up and see where you're at today, what do you imagine she would feel about that? Would she be proud of you? Would she be surprised? What do you think? Do you think she'd come to you for advice? Oh, gosh, I think probably the 22 year old me would never come to me for advice because I just think what on earth is this, this woman doing sitting in the middle of the countryside and talking about her feelings? Goodness me. And that would just show you how immature my relationship with myself was at the age of 22. But it doesn't matter what my 22 year old self would think of me now because actually what I think of me now is the important thing. And I like that I'm working on the stuff that I don't like. Oh, how wonderful. And I'm really excited about the idea as well that you know, when we are in our 90s that we can have this conversation again. Well, hopefully you'll be back with, on the show way before then. But when we were on 90s having that conversation and just, you know, looking at how we did things now and hopefully being very proud of that, being proud of the fact that we didn't slip into helplessness and that we, that we, we moved forward with wisdom. So, Beverly Evans, thank you so much for being on the show today, for being on Judy May is Listening and for all your great wisdom. And we look forward to welcoming you back to all of our listeners. Thank you so much for supporting Women's Radio station. I'm Judy Mae Murphy. This is Judy Mae is Listening and we're all about your transformation. We're here for you. So please do listen again. Do reach out to us and we will see you again very, very soon. Great big hugs to you.
