Judymay Is Listening – Caroline Towning, Extravert Vs Introvert Coping Skills In Quarantine

Welcome, everyone. Welcome to women's radio station. My name is Judy Mae Murphy and you're listening to. Judy Mae is listening. And what we're doing is we are absolutely making sure that you, during this time of absolute change and wonderful opportunity in the world, that you are in the best possible emotional and mental state for not just coming through this, but coming through this even so. Stronger. That's what we're doing here today. I think we've got somebody washing up on the line there. We've got a few here. We've got a few people joining us today. We have got a repeat guest, somebody who was so popular when we had her here, and that is Caroline Towning. Also have. Is that you doing washing up or is that somebody else? Not me. Could be Elspeth. Elspeth, what's going on your end? Nothing's going on my end. I'm just in my room. There's nothing going on. Okay, that's weird. I'm listening to. I don't know if anyone else can hear that. It sounds like there's kind of a sword fight going on. Anyway, all is good. All is good. What we're going to do is today we're going to be talking about how this time is different for people who are introverted and people who are extroverted. So those of you who know me already, you know that I am severely introverted. It's very difficult to even get me out the house on a good day. So the kind of time I'm having isn't that hugely different to what's normally going on. But for some people, life is very different. And for some people, like Elspeth, you all know our associate producer, Elspeth. Elspeth is kind of. What is it they call it. I've forgotten the term. Is it an ambivert that you're just like a little bit introverted? A little bit extroverted? Yep. You hit the nail on the head that you can, you know, be around people for a while and then you got to go out and we have our extreme. Extreme. If that's all right for me to use that word, extrovert. Caroline, who is pretty much only happy when she's out and about. So for those of you who aren't clear what those terms mean, introvert and extrovert, it doesn't really mean how friendly you are because both myself and Caroline are really friendly and so is Elspeth. Thank you. But it really means, what is it that you. What juices you so? What is it that makes you Feel alive. And what is it that depletes you? So for me, being around people, I love people. But even after an hour, I am so exhausted that I've got to go home and lie down. And as the day wears on, it gets harder and harder for me to be around people. Caroline has seen me in places like Soho House and Groucho, usually early in the morning, and anytime you've seen me late at night, you know that it's not a pretty picture and I don't last long, correct? Oh, yeah, but Judy May you say that, but you are such a life and the soul of your own party anyway. And people do. Yeah, people do naturally draw to you anyway. I mean, you know, you're saying introverse is such a kind of, like, closed little kind of thing, but actually, you're. You do have this natural energy where people do gravitate to you. So, yeah, you're kind of like the warm, energetic, gravitating introvert. The official psychological term is highly socialized. But it does mean that I have to go and maybe. Maybe not go out at all the next day or not go out for two days. These days when I have to go to the supermarket and I come back, I literally. I'm so happy to be indoors for the next four days. So, Caroline, how are you managing? What's going on for you? What was the biggest change? Well, actually, the first. So we are second or third week. I mean, I don't even know what day or, you know, days. The first week, I had a complete and utter meltdown. I think I spoke to you about this. I just couldn't handle, you know, all our liberties being taken away. Every single place that I go has just shut down. There was a two weeks before that when, you know, the government told everyone not to go out and didn't officially close down the places, so you weren't quite sure what to do. So the first, you know, in that period, I was really, really, really struggling. But then as. As we all know, we then started doing Zoom parties, and everything went online like pub quizzes. And so suddenly there's. For me, there was a week of complete panic. And then I was like, okay, fine, I can chat to my friends every night on Zoom. And we could. We created this kind of social thing just from our own living room. So, you know, I think I'm okay now. So before. Before you did that, because you really were quite melting. You really were having a very, very tough time for a few days. What did it feel like to you? Because to me, it didn't feel like really. You know, I was sad saying that the Gratitude Club is closed for now, but I didn't really feel like anything had been taken away from me. I didn't feel like I was being curtailed massively. So. But what does it feel like for an extrovert? Did you feel just that you wouldn't have any fun? Did it feel like you'd be in prison? What was the actual feeling? Yeah, I felt like I'd had my wings clipped. So, you know, I love, like, going out and kind of peacocking, you know what I mean, and seeing people and meeting people and getting that energy from other people. And, you know, it was a sort of kind of prison, really. It's like you're completely under house arrest. And I really, really struggled with that for the first week. I mean, or even the first few days of that. I really felt like my libert been taken away from me. And, you know, I didn't quite know how to cope with that because for me, you know, I get. My whole life is going out. You know, the whole. I love getting dressed up, I love doing my makeup. I love the whole going out. I love meeting people. You know, I get so much energy just from being out and in a bar like the Groucho or so House or, you know, restaurants or whatever, you know, that. That is kind of my life and suddenly have everything just closed. And also the whole social implication of everybody was putting pressure on everyone else not to go out. You know, for me, it was like my whole world was kind of taken away from me. So it was difficult. You know, it was a shock, and it was very, very difficult. On the flip side of that, I completely understand the situation. You know, it's a pandemic. It's a national, you know, worldwide crisis, and we all have to kind of have some social implications on what, you know, some social responsibilities and what that ent. So, you know, I understand it. It's fine. I've personally found it very difficult, but I've tried to adjust, and there is ways to be an extrovert online and still stay social and responsible. So, yeah, difficult. Does that make sense? Absolutely. And do you find, though, that there's a difference between, you know, being on a zoom call and being in the room with people? I imagine it's the difference between eating real food and eating astronaut food, that it's kind of like it'll sustain you, but it's not quite the same thing. Or do you feel that it is the same thing? Do you feel just as energized seeing them on camera. I think, I think when we come out of this, the world is going to completely change. And there's a couple of reasons why. I mean, when obviously the first few days of this happening, I was like, oh, you know what I mean, I can't cope. But then you FaceTime your friends with a glass of wine and it's weird for about five, 10 minutes and then suddenly, you know, you're all kind of drinking and laughing and actually it suddenly becomes normal. I was talking to a friend of mine last night, he's quite a well known television producer and we're actually FaceTiming and he was saying, you know, I do all these trips to LA all the time. I, you know, I've got my production company in Camden and all these people every day come out from Soho to meet me and I'm just like, now why we can do this over FaceTime. Like all this money that I'm spending, going to LA and doing this and doing that, actually we can just FaceTime, you know. So I think there's an adjustment, you know, and where, yes, it feels weird at first and yes, I'm not getting dressed up and standing at the bar at the Groucho or whatever, but actually when you get into it becomes the new normal. You know, I almost can't think what it's like to sit down in a restaurant now and pick up a menu. We adjust so quickly. So, yeah, I think it's interesting times, but actually like all evolution, you suddenly find a way to become you and be you in with whatever tools you have. And we have Zoom, FaceTime, House Party, all those things. And, you know, we're all getting by. I think we will become so much better after this. You know, like while we're introverting nature and everything and the world, you know, is extroverting. So actually there's two sides to it. And Elspeth, did you have a similar reaction to Caroline when you first had to be around fewer people? Yeah, it was quite strange because it all kind of came a bit of a shock to, to me, it was, it wasn't such an ease into it. I was a bit like, oh, life's now changed. But I do, I do definitely miss the whole social aspect of everything. But I've come home now and it's been quite nice. I've been going out for walks every day to kind of get my vitamin C and I've been bumping into people I haven't seen for three or four years. Hopefully not literally bumping into them. Not. Not actually. We're not. We are.2 meters. Yes. I wonder if that will change things in terms of. Are we going to become a lot more sort of chaste and Victorian just in our way? Because I. The thing I missed, even, you know, before the Groucho closed, I was always, you know, arriving in for breakfast and hugging everybody, and suddenly I couldn't hug people. And suddenly that just. That felt very, very different. So, Elspeth, do you think that, you know, we'll sort of be slightly different with each other, or do you think it'll go the other way and we'll start hugging even more when we can again? I remember the last week of work, I was. We were told we weren't allowed to hug each other. We weren't allowed to hug members that came in or anything. And that really upset me because it's such a nice greeting and it was such a strange thing. You can even shake somebody's hand. You all had to, like, tap feet or tap elbows. But I never noticed how much of, like, this energy you get when you see somebody you're really happy to see. You just want to put your arms out and give them a hug. And then you're a bit like, oh, this is a bit of a shock to the system. But it's quite. It's interesting to me. I'd say it's quite fascinating to watch. And I think afterwards, I know I'm definitely just gonna hug absolutely everybody I see. I'm gonna be embracing everybody. But it'll be interesting to see if people do start to kind of take a step back or they will go the other way and be so out there, you know. Caroline, how are you managing for, like, just hugs? How are you managing for a physical touch? Because you actually are quite a physical person. Again, I'm. I'm so desperate to touch human skin right now. I can't even. I have been in here, what, for two and a half weeks now, not seen a single person. So, yeah, I don't know. The poor. The poor postman that's going to come to my door, whoever, literally, I'm desperate for a hug. So. So there's a new warning that, you know, it used to be that the postman was like, beware of the dog, and now it's beware of Caroline. Beware of the human that's being. But she pounces. Yeah. Yeah, that's gonna be fun. But you have a dog there with you, right? I've got a little whippet. Yes. So I take her out every morning. And she's been amazing. She's, you know, been my kind of rock in all of this. So, you know, I mean, I know if you ever had a dog, they are such huge characters and they really are like such a big force in your life. So, yeah, she's been amazing in all of this. I don't know where I'd be without her. Judy May, because you're not such a extroverted person, do you think you're gonna swing the way that you'll start hugging everybody? Like. Well, I think that. So I was always really huggy in the mornings, so I could pass for an extrovert between about 7am and 10am and then after that it's run for cover, the shutters come down. That's completely. Yes. And, you know, even, you know, after 6 o', clock, you can't me on the phone. I'm just. I just become so super saturated. And I was just. I was loving what Caroline was saying about, you know, I've just been, you know, craving human skin and I'm just like, wow, I have never. Yeah. If it's, if it's purely sexual, yes. But I can't understand that as a need because all my, my needs are just so easily met. And so I just can, you know, read a book. I can create something. I've been like. My coaching practice has gone through the roof since this happened. Like, so many people wanting to learn how to absolutely retool and to start, you know, bringing in money immediately because they've kind of been a bit scared by the fact that they had to change to a different way of making money. Money is still moving. It's. It hasn't stopped. It's still, it's, it's still out there. It's just that there are some ways that are no longer valid. But just. Sorry, Elspeth, to get back to your original question, I think that initially the thing that shocked me was, wow, I really, really wish I had built a family. I'd never felt that before that I had wanted to have a family. And suddenly I was really envying people that had families. But I got to admit, two weeks into it and then hearing the stories from some of my clients and friends and family members, and they're all saying, no, you've got it made. And I am, you know, very blessed that way that I still get to. I think it's always been very important to me is to be able to make my decisions about what I do hour to hour, because, you know, not that I Have an excessive need for control, but simply because I get absolutely oversaturated by the simplest things sometimes. Like things like, you know, someone playing music, whereas other people be like, oh, there's, I can hear some music in the distance. I could be, you know, curled up in a fetal position because the music hasn't stopped for 20 minutes. Is that because you're like a hyper sensitive creative and you just absolutely absorb everything around you. So as well as being introvert, I have a thing called hsp. Highly sensitive person. And it means that you can't ignore things, you can't really ignore, you know, what other people are going through. You can't. Like somebody else hears a door slam like of a car down the street and they might just about hear it. But for me it's kind of like the door is slamming inside me. It's that much. So, you know, I'm lucky that I actually moved right before this happened. And I'm in this really quiet, genteel part of Kensington, whereas before I was, you know, right beside Soho is right in the center of it and it could get really, really loud. So have you struggled at all throughout this period or have you been absolutely fine? And it's just I haven't struggled in terms of really feeling the need for people because, you know, the way that introverts fill up is with ideas. I've read so much and I've watched so many clever movies. There's this new thing that you can watch these kind of like I've been watching these Jean Cocteau movies and feeling like, you know, an 18 year old with a beret and a gitan, like I went down that road to fill up. Like it hasn't been exactly the same. But also I think that all of the self help that I've done over the years that I was able to get to a place where I just, in the normal course of a day, I experience very little anxiety that I really can turn my emotions around. So I found myself just naturally using all those skills. A huge thing for me has been not allowing in any news, not allowing in any social media, except I'll type in the names of people that I know will be posting really great stuff. So do you not watch TV or anything at all? You completely block yourself from it? No, I've Never, for gosh, 20 years, I haven't had a TV, haven't watched TV. I just figured that you can set a higher standard for yourself. Radio stations, like women's radio station, there's movies that you can watch. Because you become what you ingest. It's not just about your food. I mean, we're all aware of it when it comes to what we're eating in terms of. Hopefully everybody's eating lots of vegetables right now, really taking care of themselves. I'm all about the. The green smoothies, and we can do that, but we also have to be really careful about the ideas that we're ingesting, about the ideas that are sitting in our mind. That's who we are becoming. And my best friend lives in Virginia, just beside Washington, D.C. and she jokingly said, but you could hear the sigh in her voice, she said that her partner, he reads my friend stats, health stats from around the world, as if they were baseball scores. And so people kind of get by in very different ways. But the way that really works for me is to just take complete control over what's going into my mind. And I was speaking to a cousin the other day and a friend from Australia, and with both of them, I said, before we start chatting, this is what I allow around me right now, and this is what I don't allow around me right now. Whereas, Caroline, I imagine that for you, just as long as it's chat, you feel better. Oh, I just need any kind. I'm so needy, Judy. Well, I'd love to say. I'd love to say, you know, I can read a book and be so fulfilled, but I'm not any people and attention and touching and, you know, just a little bit of human contact, I mean, that makes me feel whole and, yeah, shows up. It doesn't like they could be saying anything and just the fact of them is making you feel good, right? Yeah, I just get so much energy from people, you know, I do like, I do love people. I love being around people and just chatting and just, you know, I mean, but saying that, you know, I live in Stroud Green, which is near Finsbury park, and there's a huge community vibe here. So even actually, when I just go to the post office or Tesco's, like, I'm chatting to people in the queue or, you know, chatting to the lady at the checkout who's worked for 40 years in the checkout at Tesco's. And she's just so interesting, you know, and she knows everybody that goes in there. You know, I've been living here a couple of years, she knows me. And so I guess I still get my kind of dosage of humans from that, you know, it doesn't have to be just, you know, glammed up standing in a bar, get it every. In everyday things. And those everyday things now are post office, pharmacy, Tesco's and walking, really. And if you think about it as women, historically, we didn't have as much freedom as men or as much ability to partake in the things of the world. And I mean, you know, the Groucho Club was set up by. Largely by women in reaction to the sort of the gentleman's Club. And it just sort of. It kind of strikes me that as women, we're now living in a way that our grandmothers would have largely lived, that, you know, our interaction with people would have been like, you know, the local stores and, you know, maybe meeting one or two friends around the place. That it's a little bit handmaid's tale, isn't it? Going out for your daily walk, passing notes to each other. I'll tell you what I have been doing. I've been posting things a lot. I don't know if you've been posting things a lot, but basically I've been doing a lot of care packs to other people. Say, for example, I was standing outside in the queue of Tesco's other day, and I've got a bag that's got one of my horse paintings on it. And my friends messaged me, oh, my God, I love your back. Where did you get it from? And I was like, it's mine. I'll. You know what? I'll send you it. And she. She lives with her girlfriend and they've got this ranch actually. Well, she's actually got a ranch in Texas. Actors. But actually her girlfriend trains horses for film. So actually most of the films you would see there filmed at Pinewood Studios. She does all the horses for that. So I put a little care pack to them and I put two grooming bags and two mugs. And she was like, oh, my God. Well, if you're sending me something, let me send you something. So I'm like, okay, brilliant. So she's. Yeah, I haven't actually got her parcel yet, but I sent mine out on Monday. So I was like, it's really sweet, you know, and I put a little card in for. And. And then my. My. My other friend Triana, who's an actress, she posts on Facebook the day she's like, oh, my God, I haven't got a mask. And I was like, actually, I've got loads of masks. Not for this, but because when I mix oil paints up with pigments and linseed oil, I've actually got my art boxes full of masks because you get loads of stuff in the air. So I said, let me send you one. So I put, put a little care pack for her together and put a card in and stuff. So that's amazing. That's kind of like what you were saying earlier about we find ways to do what we naturally need to do. Because I started posting a lot less. I had been quite consciously disciplined about posting a couple of things every single day on all the different social media platforms. And I found myself just barely doing that, I think these days, Instagram and one of my Facebooks gets a picture of my green smoothie and that's it. So the fact that I've retreated from that and that you have expanded that I think is really interesting. And can you actually see, I didn't even know you could actually post things these days. How do you send things to people? Are the post offices open or how do you do it? Yes, the post office is still open. So while I'm in Stroud Green, our post office is amazing. I I says it's a family run, Indian family, family love. They've been there for 20, 30 years and they are the most efficient post office I've ever been to. There's one guy who kind of, yeah, I absolutely love him. And he literally, I see him, he's like a machine. Like he gets everyone in but then you know, you know how they, people fill out their driver's licenses and if you give him a form back, like your driver's license, which is like three or four pages, he'll literally zoom through it. He's like, no, no, you've done that wrong. You've done that wrong. You've done that wrong. You and people looking him like, really? He's like, yeah, if you all get sent back and he, you see him, every single person that comes through, he literally just kind of zooms in, he makes sure everything is done right. He won't put anything through. That's not right. He's absolutely amazing. And they've been stayed, stayed open, but they're not getting any more money. And they're queuing down the road and you can see they're so short staffed and if they close, I mean, I, you know, I sell a lot of stuff online so I'm there every day, you know, with stuff. I, you know, sent a massive painting there this morning. So if they, they close, I mean, another bit of my business would definitely slow down. I don't know where I'd go. But thankfully, but what we're realizing is you, you would find a way. Because that's what we're seeing is that people, well, you know, even the most vulnerable people in society, we are finding ways. And I think as well that I think we're less impressed about certain things than we used to be. I think we have less tolerance for people who are just kind of, you know, showing off and pushy. And I think that we have a new appreciation for the people that we always should have been appreciating, like that amazing guy in the post office. You know, I'm going to be writing a really nice little note for the people who collect the bins and, you know, I found myself, you know, waving at a neighbor. I was just sort of sitting outside in the front garden today and, you know, just right by the door, not even by the road, and just sort of waved to a neighbor. And I think that, you know, a lot of those values that we had lost are coming back and that we will. You know, I think that the people who are really going to have a hard time at the end of this are the people who aren't kind. Because I think there's definitely been a massive community, you know, spirits, where everyone's thought, you know, we're all in it together. You know, we've got three months where a lot of businesses that would be taking daily money, you know, just having to close down, but we're all in it together. And this is about the nhs. And, you know, the NHS is being British. We're so proud of the nhs, you know, and I think this is like a real kind of, of community spirit where we're just like championing the people that we should be championing, which is the doctors, nurses, people that just dedicate their whole lives looking after other people. And we do live in quite a selfish Instagram type world. And I think all of a sudden we've got this kind of like wartime spirit and we're just going, you know what? This is actually the stuff that matters. And actually, you know what, Our businesses will take a little dip and actually we'll build it back up again and we will get through this, but we're in it together. And it's amazing just seeing, you know, I said a little note put through my door saying, oh, you know, residents of Lawn Road, we're here if you need anything, we'll go to the pharmacy for you. We're building this little community thing. I mean, it's amazing what people are doing at the moment. I think actually we needed this. We needed something to just reset us and pull us back together again and kind of. I think we'll be very different when we come out of this on the other side, and I think it will actually be for the better. Elspeth, are you noticing the same thing in your neck of the woods? Yeah, definitely. There's been a surge of kind of positivity. When I go on walks, you know, somebody's like, people have got rainbows on their windows. People are like putting chalk on the ground. This may sound quite weird, but it's clearly little children. And they're saying like, oh, I really like your rainbow. Or, you know, wash your hands is quite a common one. But there's definitely been. The community has definitely gotten closer together. Everybody's very respectful of each other now, you know, with social distancing and stuff. And, you know, there's less. I do find there is a less kind of selfish aspect. It's definitely, you know, people are respecting each other more, kind of. I think that's it. I think that we needed this. Just to be reminded that that is the thing at the end of the day, that's the thing that matters. It's each other and people who are non empathetic. The people who are claiming that it's the structures rather than the people that the structures are supposed to be supporting, they're thinking there's the actual structures themselves that are important. They're getting schooling right now. They're getting that. They're getting to understand that they themselves are not invulnerable, that they need people too. And that people is the thing that matters. Because you can rebuild, you can start a new business, but you just can't start a new person. We've got to really look out for each other. I find it quite. Oh, sorry. I find it quite interesting now that we're all kind of isolating, but weirdly, I've gotten contact with more people. Yeah, I've been in contact with more people than I am when I'm being normal. You know, I'd be reaching out to people, being like, are you okay? You know, people whose parents are doctors and stuff like that. I found myself having the most extraordinary conversations with people who I even was already connected with, people I would chat to every couple of weeks. And the relationships have kind of gone deeper. And even there's three different, very close guy friends that I have. And all of them, after our most recent conversations, sent little notes, which was something like them. Little notes saying, oh, my God, that really gladdened my heart. Or I just feel so blessed to be your friend. Like Stuff they would never have done before. It's so interesting. Yeah, I mean, I, I have literally spoken to people that I haven't spoken to in 10 years. And I've been on the phone to them for like an hour, two hours, just catching up on their lives. Because all of a sudden we found ourselves in a situation where everything's just stopped and slowed down and then you're just kind of rechecking in with people and. And in one sense, you know, the social out there, the social life is stopped. But inside I've spoken to, I don't know, I mean, maybe like 30 people that I would never have normally have spoken to who are from my past, which I've had the most extraordinary conversations with. Just catching up. And it suddenly makes you feel that there is so many people there for you. You just don't see them in your daily lives when you're just so busy and you're kind of, in a way, we're kind of are quite insular because we do keep ourselves quite busy and we just don't stop. And this has been the most amazing time where you've just had the time to reach out to people that you wouldn't have normally reached out to. And do you find yourself going, going deeper with people? Because. Yeah, that's the thing that they say about with extroverts, because you get so filled up by the person's physical presence and just being in the room with them and having fun that maybe, you know, the thing that might have been missing, I'm just guessing here, but maybe the thing that might have been missing might have been that depth. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think genuinely in our daily lives we move really, really quickly. And yeah, you socialize quickly as well. You know, you, you out, you're about, it's moving fast. You go, yeah, yep, yep, great, let's take a number, blah, blah, blah. But actually you don't have the time to stop and really, really talk to somebody. And I'm finding that my phone conversations, I mean actually with that don't use the phone that much. I'm more out and about or a text person. And suddenly I'm on the phone and I never use time. I hate video calls. And now suddenly I'm doing video calls all the time. So I. In the last two weeks, I've really changed the way that I communicate with people. And it's, you know, it's been an eye opener. But in. During that time, I've definitely gotten some more in deep conversations with people that I wouldn't have normally spoken to in depth. And I spoke to my friend Matt last night, who I knew from when I was 17. And I spoke to him, he was. And I was like, oh, hey, how you doing? But when did we last speak? A couple of years ago. And he was like, no, no, no, 12 years ago. Oh my goodness, that's quite a while. Yeah. He was like, yeah, we worked it out. And I was like, wow, okay. That's more than half Elspeth's lifetime, you know. Right. He was like, it's 12. I was like, no, really? Did I talk to you last year? So, yeah, we had to catch up on. That's interesting. You were saying that you are kind of going on these different, like, online parties and things. Yeah, I did something that I never would have done before I went because I've never had. Because I've always had my own companies, so I've never worked for somebody else. I've never been in a corporate situation. And through a friend of mine, I got invited to a corporate pub quiz. It was run by one of the big banks. I'm seeing these and it was so funny. So myself and my friend, we decided, right, we'll be a team. And we did this pub quiz. I'm going to boast. We came second because it was like that situation where, you know, we each had the information that the other didn't. But for me, after half an hour of that, I had to go and lie down again. Even though it was just online, I think a lot of introverts feel this, that even if it's online, we still can't do it for that long. It was sort of between 6 and 6:30, and then I went and had a lie down, I mean, for about an hour after that. So I was also invited on a, to a special party that people had and they were like, oh, there's gonna be these DJs and this and this and this. And when it came time to turn up for it, I was amazed at how I had that same feeling of, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do it. It was the same as, you know, I would have on a Saturday night and say, okay, these people expect me to go to this party. Do you know what? I know I'm not gonna go. And I was fascinated that it wasn't about actually physically leaving my house. It was just not having the bandwidth to do people, to just be around people and having to go. And a friend of mine and I have decided that this is the only time in our lives that it is possible that we're going to read Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment. So that's exactly what we're doing. We've both ordered it and, well, I'm getting on Kindle. She only likes paper books. And, yeah, we're getting started tomorrow on Crime and Punishment. But I did think it was fascinating that I still can't do the extrovert things, even though I can do them from my bedroom. And I always thought that if I could have a social life from my bedroom would be fine. But now I'm realizing that that is not the case, that I just don't have bandwidth for the conversations. And I think it's because, as both of you know, and hopefully the regular listeners to Judy May's listening know. Do you know what I haven't told people who are just joining us? You're listening to wrs. This is women's radio station. I'm Judy Mae Merkey. I'm the host of Judy Mae Is Listening Today. We're joined by Caroline Towning and by our associate producer, Elspeth Proudlock. So we're just chatting about how interesting it is that the different experience that introverts and extroverts are having. So me being the extreme introvert, Caroline being the extreme extrovert and Elspeth being somewhere in the middle. Yes, she's the Goldilocks girl. She's just kind of like. It's just right. But, yeah, no, I was just absolutely fascinated that I can't actually handle people, even when it's online. So there we go. No hope for me at all. Caroline. Oh, I think she's having a. Caroline. All right. I suspect she'll be coming back. She will be back soon. So, Elspeth, what do you find? Because you're actually in quarantine with your family. Your family. Oh, we've got Caroline back. Excellent. Hi. So how do you find that? Do you. Do you find that. Would you recognize who is more introvert and who is more. Recognized. More introvert and who's more extrovert in your family or are you all quite sort of in the middle? We're all a bit in the middle. Is there anyone who's more introverted? Not really. I mean, we're all pretty much the same. I mean, my brother's quite introverted, I would say, but he's, you know, he's. He's still extroverted at times, but I would say my family's all the same. Everybody's just working at the moment, so everybody's still got that interaction with making meetings and everything. So everybody's occupied. I'm the only one who actually isn't doing anything. I've signed up for volunteering, but I find it quite strange at the moment that I'm just like, oh, I've got a lot of free time. So I do definitely. The extrovert version of me does definitely miss meeting people and seeing them and giving everybody a hug, of course. But at the same time, sometimes I'm quite happy that I'm just in my room by myself. Caroline, how have you found working? You mentioned that you, you know, you, you were having to change how you did things slightly. How are things progressing for you, work wise? So it's really interesting. I've got two streams of income. I do commercial photography, which is products, fashion and econ. And then I do equestrian painting. And then I've got my projects, Women and Horses around the World, where I'm traveling around the world and doing portraits of women in their horses and blah blah, blah, which we talked about last time. And pretty much, well, the last six months of photography has gone really well and I haven't had much time to paint. And I've actually been complaining to my friends saying, oh, you know, I'd love a week just to paint but the photography's taken off and blah, blah, blah. When, when this, this whole thing happened, pretty much within the hour, all my photography jobs kind of stopped. Everyone was like, that's a real case of be careful what you wish for. Right? Yeah. And so every, everything literally stops. I mean, the product, I do products as well. People just send products to my studio and I shoot them and they give me a brief. So that stuff kind of obviously went on because I wasn't with people, but all the fashion and the E comm just stopped. So I was like, oh, you know, this is really scary. But then the other, the other stream, which is the art stream, I had a female jockey who literally got in contact with me a day after and said, oh, will you paint my three racehorses? I'm like, yes, brilliant. And then another lady got in touch. Will you paint my racehorses? I'm like, yes, great. And then another girl said, oh, can we pick up that painting? So it was really interesting because, you know, it was be careful what you wish for. The photography stopped and now I'm just covered in paint and I'm painting them actually, like, this is kind of what I want to be doing. And I'm very lucky because I've got a house on one street and my studio's on the next street, so I can walk to work in four minutes and I don't see anybody. And everybody in the building has pretty much closed down. So my whole building is self isolated, which is great for me because I can play my music really loud and just cover myself in pain and have a really good time. So I think that you could actually probably just livestream your day and charge people for that. Just you painting, you chatting as if, like, you know, that you've got your audience and just, you know, ask them what they think of this horse that you're doing and. And have your chats and actually charge people for that. People will pay for that, I'm quite sure. So, weirdly, you know, I hate to say it, I'm actually having quite a good time. And then the other side of it is I don't have any kind of fomo, which is fear of missing out. Tell us about that. Because FOMO is something I never suffer from. I suffer more from, you know, fear of having to show up. So fear of having to show up during normal times when you get fomo. Fear of missing out. How is that experienced in your body? Like, is it a panic? Is it a drive? What is it like? Because I really don't experience it. Oh, okay. It's really childish. And actually, for me, this is the biggest gift that anyone could give to me because when you take away everything, so your friends, this, that parties, whatever it is, you take away all the noise and then suddenly it's like it's you. And it's the canvas that I'm painting or the project that I'm working on. And there's no outside noise even if you go on Instagram. I mean, it's people posting pictures of themselves dancing in their pajamas at the moment, right? There's no. You're not looking, looking on Instagram or wherever else and thinking, oh, I'm. You know, everyone else has this amazing life, which. Which is interesting because what everyone's criticized over the last few years is that people are posting on Instagram these kind of dream lives everyone's looking onto and making everyone else feel really bad. So at the moment, this is a great equalizer. This is a massive equalizer because everybody knows whatever picture they're posting now is something that happens six months ago, right? Or a few months ago is everyone knows right now everybody is at home, whatever, whoever they are, movie star friend, this, that, whatever, you know, they are housebound. And if they're not, then they're doing something very, very Uncool and they're being irresponsible. Right. So we all know there's nothing going on that you're missing out on. So all you can do is go inside or be creative or do something that you want to do. So for an artist or creative, I think this is the most amazing time. And actually I think the art and the music and the thoughts and the writing that's going to be creative, the next few months is, you know, going to be groundbreaking because this is the biggest happened over history. Right. So it's reputed that in order to keep away from the plague, Shakespeare, you know, went into self quarantine and wrote King Lear. Yeah, amazing. You know, and what was it? F. Scott Fitzgerald. There's a really great letter that was doing around a couple of weeks ago on the Internet where he was having to go into quarantine and he was talking about the supplies that he and his wife had gotten in and they were all liquid supplies and they're all bottle shaped. So I thought that was kind of fun. But I think you're right that amazing things are going to happen because you know, some people who regularly listen to Judy May's listening, you know that I had a poetry book out last year, but it did take 10 years in order to write those 40 poems. And already in the last two weeks I've got two new ones. So I think you're right. When it comes to, comes to focus, everything's just moving too quickly. I think, I think we, I think we just don't. We. I mean, I know from my personal experience, I hide when something happens to my life. I don't sit in a room and reflect. I go, right, you know what, I'm gonna be really busy. I'm gonna work, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna do yoga, I'm gonna do this. And I go travel. You know, my instant reaction to fixing something is just to be really, really busy and just keep going and keep going, keep going, which I think a lot of people do. And suddenly we've been given this kind of. I, I actually think it's a gift. I mean, obviously it's not. It's a pandemic and there's lots of stuff going on, but for most people, we're told to stay at home. And in that, you know, process is suddenly everything you've done, you actually have to deal with. You know, you have to sit in a room and think, okay, I'm reflecting, I'm resetting. This is it. You know, you have to kind of either be creative, do something great, or, you know, you're going to sit at home and get drunk. Basically, yeah. There was a philosopher that said that most of our problems stem from our inability to sit alone with ourselves in a room. So we're obviously having to face that now. And it sounds as if, you know, it's an important. An important growth for. For all of us. And what I really love is that I now feel yearning again because before, everything was just instantly available that, you know, oh, yeah, I'll hop on a plane, I'll go to New York, hang out with these friends. I'll come back. Oh, I want to go to Paris for the weekend. Let me do that. I want to go here, I want to go there. And now that it's not instantly available, you really do treasure it in a very different way. Yeah. I mean, we're gonna be so much more grateful when we come out of this. So can you think of the things you're gonna do? So, Caroline, I'm sure you've got a few. I'm sure you've got a sort of a post all this bucket list. What does that bucket list look like? We've already said that. You know, the three of us and our mates, we're gonna be meeting up in the Groucho for sure. What are other things on that list? Well, I mean, obviously there's gonna be some massive party when we get out of this, but on a more meaningful level, I think I'm actually just going to reset. I mean, if you spoke it's me a week ago, I would have said, yep, you know what? I'm going to go out this. I'm going to have a massive party. I'm going to do this and do that, and then if you talk to me this week, I'm going to say, you know what? I think I'm going to change my life a bit. I mean, it'd be. Hello, Hello. Have we lost. We lost Caroline. Oh, we lost Caroline. That was what happened there. Yes. So she'll be back, I'm sure. Caroline, are you back? She's just on. She seems. Oh, Caroline, looks like you paused yourself in your enthusiasm. So, Caroline, if you could just unpause yourself because we would love to hear the end of those thoughts. Sounded absolutely wonderful. Elspeth, what are you. Is Caroline back? Oh, we can't hear Caroline yet. We will get her back. Elspeth, are you looking forward to something for when all this is over, when we're able to be out and about again? I'm weirdly my kind of resolution was a bit like, I want to buy clothes that I actually have always been too scared to buy because I thought, oh, God, what will people think if I start? Hi, I'm back. Hello. Sorry. Do you know what that was? Is I have an hour limit on your phone? I mean. I mean, that's an hour social media a day. And my phone actually cut it off, being too extrovert for too long. No, no, we're not having that. Sorry about that. All good. All good. So Elspeth was just saying that what she's looking forward to, which is kind of like with you, I think that what both of you have in common is that you've decided that. That what you're looking forward to moving on in the future is sort of an identity change, kind of making different choices, being a different person going forward. And that for Elspeth, that. That's the thing that's going to be communicated through the. The more daring choice of clothes. So have you bought any of these clothes, Elspeth? I haven't. I'm gonna save up money and get a full new wardrobe. I. Yeah, I'm just gonna buy all the clothes that I was like, oh, no, I don't think I could pull that off. I don't think I could pull that off. I'm now just gonna wear it, and I'm gonna wear it with full confidence. I've got to fake it till I make it sort of thing. In a way, it's sort of like the. I have a friend who has been very ill for the last couple of years, and he really talks about that as the biggest gift. He said he really would not have felt all the love that was available to him. He wouldn't have appreciated his family in the same way. You know, he was. He was very successful in the entertainment industry. Still. Still is just kind of on pause right now. But it's kind of like we're all being given that gift. We're all being given the gift of realizing that, you know, there is a finite amount of time that we don't get to do it all, that we don't have as much control over what happens to us as we would like. And so, you know, I think that from that place, we are going to make very, very different, careful kind of choices. We're hearing a lot about people who are deciding that they are going to either definitely get into a relationship or definitely get out of a specific relationship once this is over. Caroline, if you had the choice, who would you be quarantined with or do you think that the gift is actually you being on your own? Because I'm very happy living on my own. What is it that you would choose? If you could choose, if you had just a whole path kind of a situation and you could choose anybody to be quarantined with or any type of person, who would it be? Well, it's. Well it's weird actually. I'm very, very happy. Even though I'm an extrovert, I'm very, very happy to be quarantined on my, on my own. I think if you're a creative over a long period of time, I mean, you know, you producing your work is your biggest thing and I know that, you know, obviously I was married for seven years. I love my husband, you know, and we've still got an amazing friendship. But I actually said to him, he called me yesterday and I said, could you imagine being in the situation when we were living in a tiny one bedroom flat with no garden in Primrose Hill? I mean we would have absolutely of killed each other, you know, and. And now we've both got two lovely flats separately and that's amazing. You know, I feel very lucky that I've got a little garden and I'm on my own and I've got my studio on the next street, you know, I feel very, very lucky by that. But I've spoken to some of my friends who are in small flats with kids and dogs and their wife or girlfriend or whatever and you know, they are going absolutely crazy because they haven't got the space to, you know, to be themselves. And you know, it's. Yeah, I think being on your own is a, is a blessing. Obviously you've got families and stuff. It's amazing too. But yeah, it's. I'm quite happy to be basically. Sorry. Yes, that's good, that's good. How about you, Elspeth? What would your ideal be? Because you do have a lot of family around you. Is that what you would choose? Or would you prefer to be back in your apartment on your own in London? Or what do you think would be ideal? I mean, if I was stuck in a place with someone like the Dalai Lama, I think that would be pretty cool. That'd be a good story afterwards. But I'm not too bothered with my. I'm lucky that I'm not living with people that I don't like or something like that. You know, I'd be happy by myself, but also with my family. They understand me so they'll just leave Me be. Or I. You know, they understand your little ways. My little ways. I did tell them I wanted to get into jazz singing and I'll stop practicing them and then not looking forward to it if you've got a new saxophone or turning up. You know what, As a teenager, I did that to my family. When I was 17, I got a saxophone and God loved them. They didn't. They didn't kick me out, but. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is kind of. It is kind of interesting. We've got to, of course, remember all the women who are listening right now who are in situations of domestic abuse, women who are, you know, being emotional, gaslit, women who are being, you know, physically hit, women who are just scared, women who are, you know, having someone arguing with them the whole time and they're trying to protect their kids. That, you know, that there are people who. I think that after this, we all need to get together and we need to, you know, any man who. Or any person who is being in any way abusive toward somebody, Somebody else who has to be in the same space as them, I think that we need to just call them out like crazy. Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, I think we're in very, very lucky situations. And, you know, for me, my day is that you. About exercising, doing my projects, making my art pieces and doing that. And, you know, I have a very, very blessed life, as do most my friends and you included. But I couldn't imagine what it's like to be living in a bad situation and be essentially locked in with your partner, you know, who. It might not be a great situation. So I feel definitely in the lucky few, I hope that there's enough support out there where if you are in that situation, you can get help. But, you know, I do genuinely think most of us will be reflecting in this time and hopefully become better human beings on the other side. You know, I think actually we were a little bit out of control. And actually having this situation forcing us to reflect should make us better people. And I'm hoping that when life does start again, it's a little bit different and we are more grateful for. For what we've got. And we reset and we just become, you know, more thankful for. Even if it's just going into a coffee shop and being able to order a cup of coffee, which we can't do now, I think hopefully we'll become better people on the other side of it, you know. Yeah. That we'll appreciate the great support that we have from our different structures and reconnected with our friends and, you know. Yeah, I think that we'll have less tolerance for things like, you know, narcissistic abuse. I think we'll have less tolerance for, you know, the pushier people. I think that those are the people who are going to have a much tougher time coming out of it because they're going to be required to be human in a way that maybe they weren't for the last few years because they're, you know, their false facade kind of fitted quite neatly into what was going on. And now they're going to be, you know, required to be more genuine. Genuine to be kinder to, you know, they're not going to be able to over assert themselves whereas before people would look up to them because of their power status. I just don't think that that's going to be the same. I'm really hoping that that's not going to be the same anymore. Yeah, reset. I think it's a. I think it's a reset for all of us. You know, I think we're definitely going to come out as better people and I hope we are, you know, I think within this forced. It's like a forced meditation. I think as a retreat, we're forced to retreat and recalibrate our lives and we're reconnecting with other people and you know, quite frankly, we're living in a very, very interesting time full of anxiety about climate change and. And, you know, we've got a lot of noise on social media and people making a lot of noise and I think actually just being forced into a room and making ourselves kind of be with ourselves. You know, we're forced to isolate, which is essentially being with yourself and looking at yourself in the mirror and thinking, am I a nice person essentially? You know, how can I live with myself in this situation? And I think actually this will be a real time of soul searching and when life does start up again, I think it'll be different. I hope it'll be different. I hope we all learn something in this. I've definitely looked at my life and thought, actually there's things I definitely need to change about myself and the way that I live to make me a better human being, you know, and is there something that you are going to be focusing on that you're going to say to yourself, you know what? At least I know I'm going to come out of it however, you know, long I'm going to be indoors. At the end of it, I'm going to have this. Is it like. Well, you Caroline have always had six pack abs and an extraordinary body. So, you know, what is it for you? Is there like a self portrait in your near future? Well, it's not about New Year, new me. I think actually it's a lot deeper than that. I think it's actually, am I going to be a better person? You know, I think I'm very spoiled. I think we're all very spoiled being in the size that we live in. And actually I think I'm going to be a lot more grateful for the stuff that I have and I'm going to want less, quite frankly. It's not about going out and getting more stuff or being more successful and making more money. It's actually, how can I live better? How can I actually be a better person in the community? Like, can I help the old lady down the street? Could I just give a half an hour of my time and chat to her and, you know, make her not feel alone? I think, I think I want to be a better member of society after this. And do you think as well that you will be more mindful of the people that when you're out and about that maybe you'll be a little bit more discerning about who you, you hang out with? Have you always been that way? Yeah, I think I'm definitely gonna be more mindful of, of my actions and who I hang out with and stuff and just, and just live it, I think. You know what, I think actually I'm gonna slow down everything because I think I wake up in the morning, I'm like, go this, go that, gotta post that, gotta do this, gotta work out, gotta go out, gotta, you know, finish this project. And it's like everything's getting faster and faster. And then you look on social media and they're doing this and they're doing that. I think actually I'm just gonna go, you know what? Everything's slowing down. I'm just gonna slow down everything. And you know what? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if I don't go to that thing or I don't. But don't do yoga today or don't, whatever. Like everything's slowing down. It's gonna be more meaningful and just calmer and knowing that the party will survive without you for a couple of days. There's a pie every night. All of them I've tried. How about yourself, Elspeth? What is something that, given that the jazz singing might not be a goer, what do you think that you're going to come out of this. Having achieved, I think definitely with myself, I think I need to be. I've definitely, like, reflected on kind of how I am in situations, and I think I just need to kind of calm down and be myself more. Just relax. You know, it's not. If somebody doesn't like you, that's fine. You don't have to be friends with everybody. You're not everybody's cup of tea sort of thing. So I'm just gonna try and be myself more and comfortable. And we. And we love you for that. We love you. So that's gonna be getting even more. Ellsworth is really good for all of us. So thank you so much to my guests today, Caroline Souning. And of course, we have our wonderful associate producer, Elspeth Proudlock. And thank you as well to Melisse, our producer. And from here on wrs, we are here for you. We are loving you. We're thinking about you. We are tribe and looking forward to speaking to you again next week. Until then, stay safe, stay happy, stay awesome. We love you.