Michael Lewkowicz

Phew. What a busy, busy, busy day. That was just. I just loved that. It was just. It was just fascinating. It really, really was. We have to do what they call hot changeovers. I used to do that with Alan Freeman. Not half pop, because. All right, out of unit one, into unit two. Here's a little bit of Dave D. Dozy Beacon, you know who. And it was just extraordinary. I made the mistake once of not turning down the volume on the headset that Alan Freeman. Alan Fluff Freeman had been using. I nearly blocked. Blew my ears off the side of my face. Anyone in broadcasting will tell you, always check the volume before you're using somebody. Somebody else's headset. My next guest. I apologize that we've kept you in the green room, but be honest, it's nice in there. It is very nice. And. And. And James's mum's charming. She's marvelous. She's marvelous. It's the cakes, and she leave the cake to. After I've had a lovely cup of tea. It's a nice cup of tea, and she's just charming. I could see you getting on right now. How do I pronounce? I'm gonna say Michael Lekovich. That's pretty good. Mike Lefkovich. Lefkovich. Can't you get people with, like, Jones or what? What is it with you? What the hell is it with you? Every week, the most comple. Can I just call you Michael? You can, Michael. Right now. You are wearing a. And I apologize we've kept you waiting, and it's. Damn rud. I'm sorry, but sometimes these things happen. It's like families need fathers. All right. You're wearing the T shirt, which I guess is a kind of subtle plug. You've got the literature here. I want to hear all about it. Go on the stage. Sir, is yours. Thank you very much. Well, we are a national registered charity. We have been around for about 45 years. We were set up in 1974, and we're there to provide help, support, guidance for parents, most of them fathers, but not exclusively fathers who are having difficulties seeing their children after family separation or divorce, and they're trying to make progress, to be able to maintain a meaningful relationship. I mean, we don't consider ourselves a father's or men's rights organization. We consider ourselves as being mostly interested in the welfare of the children who are deprived or potentially deprived of having loving parents as part of their life as they're growing up. So that's kind of, in a nutshell, what we try to achieve. We Also seek to see improvements in legislation and policies that influence and affect the way that families operate, not just when they're together, but when they're apart. See, that's why I was so glad to have you on the, on men's radio station, because I think people who dress up as Batman, Superman and jump on a wall or a roof just negate the sort of work and the sort of serious nature of what, what this is about. That's just my personal view. I'm sure other people have other views. How did you get started, the charity? Well, I think the charity was started way back then just because the need was there. There were so many dads in particular who were under supported back in those days. There used to be legal aid for family, private family law, but even with legal aid, a lot of people didn't qualify on income or other reasons. And actually it's just so expensive. It's impossible for many people, most people can't aff to turn to family law when the cost of lawyers is £250 an hour, perhaps more if you're lucky. If you're lucky, yes, yes, yes. I mean, if you're using barristers, it can cost hundreds of pounds more. It can be costing 3, 400 pounds an hour. Yes, it is absolutely terrifying. And the financial aspect of it, of course, is a huge influence on how far you're able to take and pursue your case and how your heart feels as well. There are so many people who actually start off when things go wrong and they assume that the best thing to do is to contact the lawyer. They get in touch with a solicitor and they start to go through the motions of going through the family law process. And then when they find that they've had 1, 2, 3, 6, 10 hearings and they've spent 20, 30, 40,000 pounds, sometimes considerably more. And some of them just say, well, hang on a minute, I've got a choice now. Do I give up? Do I become my own litigant in person and start to manage my own proceedings? What should I do? Because actually, decisions are being made which are meant to be in the interest of children, but they're actually taking far, far too long. They're taking months. Often it's not usually even weeks, it's usually months, occasionally years, before courts reach decisions. And that's a frightful prospect if you're paying for lawyers throughout. That's all the more frightful. Now, this being men's radio station, obviously we have our sister radio station, which is women's radio station as well, so I just want to try and get the balance here because the name of your charity is Families need Fathers. Is there still in 2019, a bias against men in this area? In other words, a mother in the situation, by dint of being the mother will be given greater access or be more likely to have the court on her side. We think there is definitely still a bias. And the bias stems fundamentally from some of the people, the professionals involved in the system, who tend to see men from a perspective of being sources of risk, as opposed to seeing them as also being equally potentially sources of resource for the child, whereas mothers are much less likely to be seen in that light. But a lot of the problem stems from the fact that in 90% of cases, or over 90% of cases, mum is the one who retains the children at the time when the family separates. So as soon as that happens, whoever is the parent with care, the parent with whom the child is living at that time, the system will automatically tend to favor them anyway. You can be dad, but it can be mum dad who gets that favor. But almost always in over 90% of cases, it's mum. And the courts are then very ineffective at trying to arrange contact arrangements for the children for the non resident parents, so to speak. So there is an intrinsic bias, but the bias can often start not just in the family justice system, it actually starts much earlier. So for example, these days when most parents provide both care and work for the basic necessities of the family, there's not too many families these days where mums and dads don't both work. And yet, for example, we have a system of support which still treats father as a provider and mother as the caregiver. So for example, all child related benefits tend to be given to one parent only, almost always the mother. They don't split and share them. When parents separate, whoever, even if they manage to agree amongst themselves that they're going to share care of their children, more or less 50, 50, the one who receives the benefits also receives child maintenance, not the other way around. So even if the care is four days to three days per week, almost three and a half days each, one parent gets the benefits, one parent gets the maintenance, the other gets nothing, and that's irrespective of the relative income of the parent. So you've got a system which is actually geared up from day one and actually even before that. Let's take it a step further back. If you go, for example, at parental leave, typically the government will subsidize, if you've got two parents earning average income of 27 or so thousand pounds. The state subsidy for parental leave will be about £7,500 for the mother. When you say parental leave, sorry, what does that mean? Maternity leave. Maternity. So support for maternity leave will be £7,500 from the state. The support from the government for paternity leave amounts to £290. That's a 96% gender pay gap, for want of a better word. That is offered. They would argue, and I'm just positing this, I'm not saying that this is my particular point of view, but they would argue that mum's the one in hospital, mom's the one who goes to labor and mum's the one who gives birth and dad is kind of hanging around a bit. I mean that would be the crude way of putting it. So I guess that's how they do their financial calculations. Well, I think, you know, the world is changing and I think the fact of course that the mother's given birth and needs to have an opportunity to recover, I think we can totally accept that. I think there's a big difference though between offering a father 145 pounds a week for two weeks towards their paternity leave. Now what's interesting is that in countries where they've moved away from that and they've been seeing, they've been moving towards a more equal system. So take some of the Scandinavian countries like Sweden where they now offer 90 days of, of non transferable paternity leave for fathers. 90 days in one hit. I can't remember exactly how it can be spread but I think it can be spread in the first year of the child's life. So you can, so the father as much as the mother can take three months at 70, 80% of salary. If you're running a business, I'm sorry, I always say, you know, you want to follow by the way, if you want to join in this conversation before I answer that, that question. 0203-29044 Double bond James, any miracle by chance that we could play that just because I enjoy it. 0203-290-44 double one if you're going through a difficult time personally with children related issues in your own relationship, marriage or partner, whatever it might be, phone in and talk to, talk to Michael because he's very knowledgeable fellow and we'd love to take your calls. Right, you can play, come play the little jingle. AMuse me. Come on. 0203-290-4411 hey, that is great. Michael, What I was going to say is, if you're running a business and you know, the guy says, oh, I got to take 90 days off, by the way. It's like what? It's like, really? You got to take 90 days, you've had a baby. You know, loads of people have babies. It's like, we could start at less. I mean, the Women Inequality Select Committee last year recommended that fathers should be given funded non transferable leave of one month. Now, the government rejected that on some spurious cultural reasons, probably really financial, culturally. Culturally. What did they say? They kind of felt this was not our culture. But actually this wasn't a culture in Scandinavia either, if you go back 40 years, but it is now. And so they've changed it. Now. The Women Inequality Select Committee weren't doing it because they were fundamentally sort of saying, let's support dads. They were doing it because they recognized that the countries where they've got better support for father's involvement, early stages of a child's life, also had the smallest gender pay gaps and that was their primary motivation. So if you go to Sweden and Finland and some of those countries, you see that the gender pay gap is far, far lower. The employer doesn't have any particular interest in protecting a man in a particular role versus a woman who might be of an age where they might have children, because both are going to take significant amounts of time off to take care of children. And all of those changes have resulted in a culture change, which means that whether you're a dad or a mum, the employers generally don't bat too much of an eyelid if you have to leave the office at 3:30 to pick up the kids. So you have a greater sharing of the responsibility between both from day one. And kind of all the evidence that says that if dads are as involved with their children from day one, they stay involved whether the family are together or apart. Finland is an amazing example actually, where in 2017 men, actually they're the first country where men actually spent more time looking after children than women. Eight minutes a day more. So not a huge difference. But in effect they have achieved quality of caring and financial responsibility between the parents. But I think from our point of view, the issue is that all of these things have had a much bigger, a massive effect on how people parent their children once they split up. When they're no longer together, they are far more likely to remain involved in their children's life without having to necessarily go to family courts. Why? Because I'm curious, which is one of the reasons we set up a radio station, of course, is why are you so personally invested in this? Well, I mean, I don't want to talk too much about my own case and my own situation, but I think the people who become involved and become volunteers and activists and workers with families need fathers. We come here, a lot of us, because we've been through it. We have seen how difficult the system is, how unjust the system is, how biased it can be, how lacking in support it is for men and fathers in particular, in supporting them, in maintaining their relationships. You become involved when you. If you're somebody, for example, who has been through the family justice system and the people who come to us who have used family lawyers have on average spent over 20,000 pounds on their family law cases. And then they've got that precious order. They've got the order which says, you're going to see your kids alternative weekends and half of holidays. They might think that that's not good enough. They might think that they should have better than that, but they've got their order, they're going to see their children next weekend and then they don't come, and then the order is not complied with. What do you do? Well, the only choice you then have is to go back to court, pay more money, pay more money, go back, make it happen and go all over again. Pay somebody again, or have to do it yourself again. Through all the stress and horror of that, you go back to court. And There are over 6,000 people who are applying every year for enforcement of orders that have been made in the child's best interest. Why are the orders, and I totally hear what you're saying, because you're emotionally set up. Yeah, I'm gonna see my kids this weekend. Yeah. And then nothing. So it's like falling off a cliff emotionally. You know, you go from a big high to a big low, I would imagine. Thank God I haven't been in that situation because it would be horrible. But why is it that it's the quarter said xyz, you know, look, I come from the point of view. You park on a single yellow line for 20 seconds, you get fine. If you don't do it, it goes up. And then you get some gorilla on your door taking away your telly. So why is it, if you've gone to all of this palaver and you've got the order and you're there with your, you know, Mr. Kipling cakes already on the table and the kids don't turn up, why is it not enforceable? Why is that? Well, it's not enforced, I think, for several reasons, but one of them is that judges tend to feel that in putting a sanction on the child, putting a sanction on the parent who's not complying with the order, their options are things like a financial sanction. They could in theory make somebody do community service, they could in theory, jail somebody, but they're not going to. Sorry, little bit extreme. Well, that's exactly the point. That actually nobody really wants to jail somebody who's looking after a child. It's a hopeless idea. And also putting in a financial penalty when you're both struggling, as everybody is these days, everybody, you know, that's not going to help. So. I see. But they couldn't just. I know this is a huge amount of police time and, you know, the police are few and far between. They can't knock on the door and say, Mrs. Jones, you know, Mr. Jones is waiting for Tommy and Mary and where are they? In some countries that could happen. That could happen in. I think I've heard that can happen in France, it can happen in Israel. There are some countries where if your children are not made available within a certain time frame of the order, the stipulation, then you can call the authorities and they will actually make it happen. And I don't think they have to call on them that often because everybody knows that that's the system and that's what will happen. Of course, if you were a little kid and you saw uniformed police in your front door, you're thinking, wait a minute, I was going to see my dad. Now the police have turned up and I've got to see my dad. It kind of takes away the. Sucks the joy out of the whole situation, wasn't it? I guess it does. I don't know. You guess what? So if a policeman turned up on your mum's doorstep, well, she'd probably love it because it's uniform. But there you go, putting that to one side. Obviously, all two of you do come in, you know, it would. A little. Little. James would not be. You're 24 now, you're probably over it, but I'm a child of divorce. I know you are. I was trying to gingerly push you into that. Pushed you into that conversational direction, trying to think back on it. I couldn't think of a time where, you know, Mum used to drop us off on a Friday, dad used to drop us back off on a Sunday sort of thing. And I could never think of a situation where it was always seemed to be Agreed that, you know, we'd see that at the weekend kind of thing. But then again, at the same time there was also nothing that said, if you don't, then something will happen. And I feel like maybe that is what's going on in some cases. It's like, there's that. Because obviously divorces are a messy process. I mean, my parents still don't talk and I'm 24, so it's like, well, no one can get a word in with your mum. That's probably one of the problems. It looks like they don't talk, they just can't talk. Exactly. So trying to communicate with Mum is not the easiest thing. Not really, no. You spent time with her. I'm like, look, you're still recovering, Michael, be honest about it. She treated me very well. So I don't know. She is such a. I've not met your dad, of course. She's such a very quiet man. He never used to be. Probably. Probably had a voice. She's such a boon to this stuff. We absolutely love it. Now, there's some fantastic stats here which I'm going to read out, which you've kindly provided because I think they're important to show the scale, the scope and severity of the problem. There are 80,000 families every year in the UK, the breakup. 80,000. I mean, that's just monstrous. Right, look, I've been divorced myself, I'm no angel, so I can relate to all of this. There are around 50,000 child related applications to family courts every year. How? Michael, you're a professional in this area, so how on earth does the court system already stretched to squeaking point? How does it deal with 50,000 cases? 50,000? It is struggling, but actually every effort that has been made by the government to try to reduce that number has backfired. They have tried over the last decade or so to really discourage people going to family court and what they've done is they doubled the fees for making an application to the court to £215. That's just for starters. So £250. 15 quid, you gotta just make an application. Yeah. Now, you know, I mean, a lot of people can afford that, but an awful lot of people can't afford even the application form. So they doubled the fee and made it really expensive. But of course, are you going to give up on your children whom you've loved and looked after every day because of a fee of £215? No, you're not. So that didn't put people off making applications, then they decided for example, that they would make it a precondition of family justice that you first seek mediation. And so there's a form. When you fill in the form, you have to tick whether you have attempted mediation. And unless there's been some serious allegation of abuse, then the expectation is that you will go to mediation. What is mediation like? Sit down in front of a couple's therapist? Yeah, a little bit like that. I mean, they're not necessarily trying to bring you back together again because you. This isn't about counselling, but this is about providing professional support to help you to come to an agreement about the future of how you're going to manage your children and your family life after separation without recourse of the court. And it's actually a really good thing to do if you can come to both jointly come to an agreement. That's the hard part. That is the hard part, and it requires sufficient goodwill. But it only takes one party to not turn up at mediation or to turn up and simply say no to everything, not be prepared to give or take anything. And then you get to the position where you have no choice. You have to go beyond. So now you have wasted. If you're in that unfortunate situation, you've now wasted another two months perhaps of time where you've not seen your children. You've spent quite a lot of money on mediators, only for the mediator to provide you with a form which says, no, we can go no further. This mediation has broken down. And then you go to family court. So, Michael, let me ask you if is a mother? Because I don't know. So it's not a loaded question. It's a question because I don't know the answer. Is a mother allowed to say, under no circumstances am I letting my children. Kind of a pejorative phrase, my children straight away see the father. I'm just not having it. He's an awful fellow. Can somebody do that? The question is, was she allowed and whether she can. She can and she does. And the thing is, there's no real thing consequences of not doing so. So you get past that. So, you know, you shouldn't. Both parents have. Probably have parental responsibility in law, but parental responsibility doesn't automatically give you the right to see your child. Isn't there some exceptions to the rule? I mean, I remember a friend of mine's dad went to jail and it was like. And then they got divorced after that. Wouldn't that be one of those situations where it's like he can never see the father because obviously he's a bit of a bad dude. Well, I mean, yes, if there is an order which says that you should not fear your children because it's not in their best interest, and absolutely right, you then don't and you shouldn't. And indeed, if you as a parent think that the other parent is a threat and a danger to the child, then actually you would be negligent in your responsibility to that child if you allowed, if you were to let them and to let them go to somebody who you think is going to harm and hurt them. So in that you have every right to take that kind of action. The issue then is how you resolve that, how you were determined, whether or not there's truth in that. Have you perhaps got a distorted view? You know, some people have got mental health issues and difficulties which cause them to feel paranoid about their ex partners. So somebody then has to cut through all of that and work it out. And if you've not been able to do it in mediation, then you end up with no alternative, really, but to go to a family court. It's really very interesting when we get a load of people, obviously this is week. How many weeks we've been going, James? 15, 16. This week. 15, 16 something. We are week 16, week 16 since we started. Right. So we have a terrific input of people coming in, the guests. And I'm always blown away by the standard and the communications, everything. You are director of communications for Families need fathers. And boy, oh boy, if anyone deserved the job, I got to say, because you're. It's very impressive. They don't do this on Radio 4. We're not Radio 4. I deliberately tried to deconstruct how we do radio and it's really impressive that you argue with such passion and you argue with such clarity and that's really what a director of communications. I mean, I've met a lot of director of communications who honestly couldn't write a Three pints of milk and a yogurt, please. So bravo you for doing that. I want to slightly broaden the conversation and it comes down to crime. Do you feel, in your experience, and looking back on the 45 years that this charity has been going, families in need fathers, that a home without a dad means there's a more likelihood, I'm trying to put it in less pejorative terms, more likelihood of the children going awry? Let's leave it like that. Yeah. I mean, it's not an area we actively are only involved in. I get that totally. At the same time, all the research that I've seen, and there's been a lot of work done on this, does suggest that young men in particular suffer from a lack of effective role models, from a lack of paternal role models in their family homes. And when you look at the prison population, the vast majority of the prison population is made up of young men who have not had a father in their lives. So now, in some cases, there may be good reasons why that's the case, and other role models haven't come forward or been made available to them. But in many cases, of course, there are simply. Fathers have been excluded from the involvement of their children's lives, and they hurt and they suffer and they play up and sometimes they opt out of behaving as decent human beings. And in their. Whatever's going on in their psychology, I think these stats, when they're looked at in retrospect, will be very, very telling. Are you all right to stay on for a little bit? You sure? Yes. Oh, good. Good. Because I never know, you might be dashing off to catch a flight to, you know, New York. I mean, why? I never presume. I'm talking to the director of communications for Families Need Fathers, Michael Lekovich. Have I got that vaguely right? Pretty good. No, no. Do it again. Michael Lefkovich. Lefkovich. I told you, James. Told you, James. You did it. Polish parents. What kind of. Change it to Smith and make my life easier. That would be great. Right. We'll be back after this short commercial break. You're listening to men's radio station where men really talk. This show was any faster, I'd spontaneously combust. I think basically it would just go. I'm Russ Kane. This is men's radio station. Rocking the decks as always. Boy wonder producer James Blake and James's mun looking after teas and coffees. Teas, coffees and catering. She has been the biggest boon that we've ever had. This has just been. Just been great. I mean, I'm not being rude to Howard. Howard is lovely. The Phantom. And we love the feathers in his hat. But frankly, James. Mom, the catering is, like, unsurpassed. Right. Is that fair to say? You can speak. You can speak freely. I don't know how to speak. You had a moment. The doors closed, the train's left the station. We're moving. That ship has sailed. Right. Before we move on, I just want to read out. We do have a comment from Facebook from E. Phantom, which says mothers are always given first concern with parental rights and visiting rights. It is unfair how mothers always Seem. Whoa. Your mother is unbelievable. What the hell? God almighty. Are you all right? She said, would I like a cup of tea? I said. I said, Mrs. Blake. I call her Mrs. Blake. That's her name. That would be lovely. She sneaks in with a cup of tea, puts it down on the studio desk. She then walks out the open door and manages to fall over completely flying. One shoe still in the studio. God knows where the other shoe is. We don't know. And now I can hear screeches from the corridor and we have it on camera as well. That'll go viral. Yeah, thanks. But at least you didn't draw attention to yourself. And that's the main thing about supportive help. I hope you're okay. Yeah. Don't forget to write. Should we try and regroup? Do you know how the hell you've grown up? The way that you even have is. Be honest, James, a miracle. No, it's great. She's great. She's great. She just marches to her own drum and I was steadily following behind. Right, should we try and get back onto you? Don't get this on the Today programme. John Humphries is a good one. My assistant has just fallen over in the studio. But back to you, Prime Minister. Right, so, Michael Lefkowitz. Very good, thank you. See, James, that's why I'm top broadcaster, director of communications for Families Need Fathers. And we are joined. Oli Lester. Completely different. A health coach. You know, you guys, you come into the studio, you health girls, you always look so bloody fit. Every week, it's like every. You know, we have a lot of you guys because you. We're very interested in what you do because it's all about well being. When they come back to all about the well being about children in a sec. But you guys, you got an aura of, like, fitness. And it's like. Well, James and I get quite depressed, to be honest with you. I look at each other going, oh, Christ. You always sit up straight, don't you? Yeah, they sit up, they got the pose, they've got the whole thing going on. I just sit here slumped like an old guy. And you sit there, slump like a young guy, quite honestly. Tell us a bit about yourself, Holly. And thank you so much for coming in. I mean, it's a pleasure. No, we never take it for granted. Yeah. So I'm a health coach by trade now and I love what I do. So it's all about empowering people to upgrade their own health, all through habit changes and it's bringing more awareness to Daily choices because we get good at what we do often. And if we're practicing bad habits over time, these can create ill health. And our culture really doesn't prioritize the basics of good health, which are real food, prioritizing sleep and movement. And we're pretty poor at managing our stress. I would be your number one patient for those things because I have just ticked. My sleep is rubbish. I'm stressed off my face most of the time. The only time I'm not stressed is actually either walking the dog or in the studio because I love doing both. Or when I'm writing. Let's try and break it down a little. What were you doing before you were. I'm always curious how people get to where they are. That's why I asked you, Michael, how did you get to where you are? You're now director of communications. You're drawing a discrete veil. You're not going to draw a discrete veil because you're further away from me, so you can't hear me. So go on. How did you get to be doing this? Was fitness always your thing? No, not at all. I worked for a Travel company for 11 years and whilst it was, yeah, it was really good fun, I met a lot of good people and, yeah, regular travel trips. So, yeah, I experienced. Yeah. But day to day, I was quite unfulfilled at the end of it and wanted something more in the realm of helping people. And, yeah, something was sort of burning aside that. Yeah. So I eventually quit my job. I went traveling for a year in Nepal and India and Poland and. Yeah, combo it is. Yeah, I'm going to say India, Nepal, Vietnam Campaign. No, Poland. I'll touch on that. But yeah, I first went to Nepal, did loads of sort of volunteer teaching, loads of trekking in the mountains. I did some retreats, meditation and learned about Buddhism and did a yoga course in India and just try to experience stuff that I'd never done before. Yeah, meditation is something I really got involved in and the first time I did a retreat, there was. It's called Vipassana medit, where it's 10 hours a day of silence and stillness. No, no, no, no, no. I could. I'd go up the pole with that. Yeah. James, could you stand that? I could do silent. I don't know if I could do stillness. I reckon I could not speak. Maybe 10 hours. You've got to be joking me, Michael, could you do that? Could you sit? That'd be impossible. You're director of communications. You fail at the first fence. I'd have to move though. You gotta move after yourself. Sit there and just. Yeah, it's just a mental physical challenge which. Yeah, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. You have a sort of a roller coaster every day of mostly negative stuff going around your head. But it's the moments where you get bored stupid. Yeah, you do. And it's just a mental challenge to get admit that. Thank goodness because I thought it would just be me, but. And what is the. I gotta stop and digress on this a little bit. So you're sitting there for 10, 10 with breaks. It's not all up to walk around and have a bit of breakfast. I always think I'm trying to. I'm trying to break it down into like when I fly to la, which is quite frequently because I just get friends. That's 11 and a half hours. Right. If I didn't have endless films to watch and, and stuff, I would go, well, I'd open the door at 36, 000ft, just leave because it would drive me so potty. Wow. Another end of this. Hoo. Ha. Yeah. I'm not being facetious. I mean you're a better person. Did you have a greater understanding of stuff or what? I think just better understanding of how your mind works, which is the goal of it. And how your narrative has a big impact on your well being. Your narrative, your, you know, the voice in your head. Ah, yes, because I'd sit there for 10 hours going, you are crap. Yeah. And many hours of that were like that. You would, James, I know you would immediately. You'd sit there for 10 hours going, God, I. Rubbish. I'm such a self critic. Well, you are. You're very hard on yourself. Mind you, I've seen you working so. Wow. And then were you able. Because this is a very. I'm being a little personal here, Mike. You got to bear with me here, right? But Ollie, were you able to then change the narrative? Slowly and surely. It's. It's not done overnight and if you're used to having that negative narrative, it's not going to change. Why is it? I've asked many. I've got. We've had a lot of people like yourself who are doing this and it's all good stuff and I never find it repeats itself and there's obviously key things which you all touch on in your various individual ways that you spin it. But why is it that we beat ourselves up so why do we never, at three in the morning when you wake up, go, you know, this is Pretty good. I've done this, I've done that. Things are okay, Things are all right. Why do you sit there? Go. Why did I ever do that? Oh, my God, what was I thinking? Why. Why is it the narrative is so negative in most cases? Not in every case. I can't speak for everyone on the planet, but, yeah, I think it's just how the mind, or ancient brain is designed to be aware of negative things that. But it's just beating ourselves. We're just beating ourselves up. It doesn't make any sense, does it? It makes no sense. It doesn't help us. It's an evolutionary thing, I think. Right. It's to help us look for the risks. Yeah. Be aware of fears and stuff. Be aware of dangers. If you're. If you are always saying, oh, yeah, I'm gonna do this because it's good, you're not looking out for the predators, are you? And that's kind of where it comes from. Well, let me. Let me help you here. Never go into the music industry. There you go. I've just saved you an absolute fortune and seven years of wasted time. So there we are. If you get nothing else out of today's show, that's it. Don't touch it with a barge pop. So, Ollie, right, so you come back from 10 hours of doing Drive Me Mad and then tell us about the. I was really interested in your opening comments about the habits that we get into that are no good for us. Yeah, I mean, habits really make us or break us. And having spent 10 months by default, living very healthily, learning about stress management with yoga and meditation and breathing and living. Yeah. With the food choices available in Nepal, India, it's all fresh and it's all, you know, fresh ingredients, a lot of vegetables and fruits. And we prioritize sleep. I wasn't there to, you know, go out partying every night. So sleep was prioritized and I felt a lot better for that. I was active every day. I was living out. How much sleep were you. Was it suggested that one should get. Oh, I mean, I was getting eight hours night. But it wasn't a case of going to bed at three in the morning, like, you know, or beyond midnight. I was always pretty much in bed by 10pm, which is. Yeah, I'd never practiced that sleep pattern before in our Western world. And yeah, having come back from 10 months of. Yet by default, living really healthily. I came back in December 2017 in the run up to Christmas to the UK and it was just, you know, full on boozing. And eating processed garbage. Yeah. And consequently felt pretty rubbish quite quickly, and therefore it just felt yourself deteriorating. Yeah, yeah. Within a few weeks. Physically and mentally or just both? Because I realized quite quickly that your foods and your drink choices have a big effect on how you think and how you feel and how you look. And I just had more awareness completely about preparing fresh foods and drinking a lot more water than I was used to. Is that a myth? How much of this water thing is a myth and how much of it is for real? If you're on the train, you see Americans, you think, what do you think? They're crossing the Gobi Desert. You're in Oxford Circus. How rough can it be? They're clutching water. Their life depends on. Yeah. I think it's certainly important. It's a good practice to wake up and have a glass of water because you're immediately dehydrated when you wake from sleep. Worst things to do is a coffee. Right. Because it dehydrates you more. Yeah, exactly. Welcome to my world, gentlemen. I love a coffee, but I'd start the day with a pint of water, then have a coffee. A pint. Yeah. But I have things to do. I need to leave the house. I have a pint of water. That's it. I mean, you want to have a meeting with me? You'd be standing outside the bathroom door. Rust, you ever going to come out? I'm going to go. Not. Not in anytime soon, to be honest with you. That would be me. Okay. Yeah, but it's. I can't help it. I'm serious. I'm serious. I sat the day with a pint of water. There's no way I'm gonna jump on the train, have a meeting with James or anybody else. I couldn't. I'll be completely screwed. It doesn't have to be a pint. I don't think, you know. Yeah. Start with half a pint. I'll meet you halfway. Have a glass of water. Yeah, I could do that. Whatever works. I mean, it's just a good practice to get into. And you. If starting a new habit is breaking it down and starting small. Right. And it's just marginal gains like this, and just the more you practice these new habits and breaking them down into very small, manageable steps, like having a glass of water. Don't. Don't have a point. If you don't want a point. Just. Just start with that, and then. I don't want. I just know what's gonna happen. Okay? Yes. Whatever works for the individual because we're all different. We've all got different lifestyles and different jobs and different beliefs about ourselves and about the world. And now Michael here, director of communications for family and these fathers, obviously it's in a stressful. It's a stress. Everything he deals with has to be stressful because the very situation, nature of what he does is based on stress because a family is splitting up and children involved, which is always ghastly whichever way you set off with good intentions, but it always ends up crap. Can't help it. Stress is affecting so many of us in part of your techniques because it's of much more interest than, you know, running around the block and all the rest of it. I think for a lot of people listening on men's radio station, what's your ways of handling and combating stress? Glass of water? Yeah, yeah. Pint of water? Yeah. For me, I've learned a lot about breathing and it is such a powerful thing that not many people have much awareness around. And coming back to the one. I went to Poland, I. Well done. I listened to many podcasts while I was in Asia and Wim Hof was a guy who kept cropping up in these podcasts and explain. I know who Wim Hof is, but explain a little bit about. Because he's a really cool dude. Yeah, he's amazing. He's known as the Iceman. He has, I think it's 26 world records for various cold exposure feats. So he can. He stayed in an ice bath for two hours without his core body temperature dropping. He's climbed up to 7,000 meters on Mount Everest just wearing a pair of shorts and boots. And he's developed this technique of controlling his body temperature all through mindset and breathing. Yeah, Michael. Michael. I are looking at each other like, what? Yeah, yeah. If you don't know of him and I don't. Yeah. I can give you a YouTube documentary that I've watched about 10 times now. And it's incredible. And I'm based on that. And whilst I was in India, I saw he did this retreat in Poland when I was coming back. So I did this in December 2017 and did all these amazing breathing techniques which are very simple but have such a powerful effect on your chemistry and your biology. And we did loads of ice dips in ice bars and icy rivers in Poland in December, and we ended up climbing a mountain. You do this. You're nodding. It's incredible. Michael and I will be on the side of the riverbank with towels. I'm up for It. Because Michael and I are not going. Have you never done the freezer? No, obviously not. I don't even go near the frozen food section. It's too chilly. And Tesco don't even open the freezer. I don't know people to do that for free. In January a few years ago and it was minus 25 degrees C, I went in a little jean jacket and my relatives fortunately gave me this very thick coat because otherwise I wouldn't have survived the railway station. Precisely. I don't know how they do it. So can you teach us? Talk us through. You can't teach us because that's ridiculous. But could you talk us through some of the breathing stuff? It's actually quite simple. Okay. And it's really a very big inhale starting from the belly, then the chest and up into the head. And you repeat cycles of these up to sort of 30 to 50 of those times, and then you exhale everything when you've done sort of 30 to 50 breaths, and you find that you can hold your breath without any air in your lungs for more time, that you can think. And it's putting together these cycles, and at the end of these few cycles, you can hold your breath without any air in them for over one or two minutes. And it's changing your chemistry. And after a few rounds of these, your brain is in a better place. You feel more relaxed and you're more in tune with your body. Yeah. I mean, it's something to do. Oxygen, isn't it? Yeah. Oxygen circulation. Yeah. To his podcast, he does explain it. There is some good, good facts behind it. It's because you're getting more oxygen flowing through to your brain and different parts of your body, you're feeling them more receptively or like you can feel them more because they're more empowered by the oxygen or something like that. And it's really. I'm thinking the op. I'm thinking the opposite. I'm not technical. Okay. But I'm thinking the opposite here, that if you. You're not breathing, it's gonna be too good. But you are, aren't you? You're just taking these really long, like, breasts to the head and then like these short exhales or something. I don't know. I'm not the one that went on the course of him. Yeah, it's a lot of deep inhales, hyperventilation almost. And then you're exhaling everything. And, yeah, like I said, you can. You can go a long time, a lot longer than you can think without Any air in your lungs. And it's just. This helps stress. Yeah, completely. I did a few rounds of this actually in. In the church in St. Mark's Square in Covent Garden about an hour ago, just. Did you. Yeah, it was great. You weren't stressful about coming here, were you? I was just, you know, had a. James isn't that bad, Russ? People get nervous, you know. Yeah, I never think of that. I never think about it. I just think Sunday good, Meet some interesting people and have a good chat. Okay. Are there other stress things? Because everybody I know is just so damn stressed. And I put myself pretty much at the top of that list. I don't pretend otherwise, you know, I talk it and I walk it at the same time. I wish I could sit here with some marvelous vista and give wisdom. But no, I'm right in the middle of it with everybody else, you know, and what? So what else? Breathing. Yeah. Meditation is a big one for me. Since I've originally sort of dived into it a couple of years ago, I've played with a few different meditation techniques, but I tried to practice sort of 5 to 20 minutes each morning before I turn my phone on. Is this before or after the glass of water? You're obsessed with this water. After. After the glass of water. Meditating in the bathroom? No. And meditation to a lot of people sounds a bit scary maybe, or scary or. Yeah. I mean. Yeah, Hippie, dippy. Yeah, exactly. And when you say meditation, it's like saying, I'm gonna play sports. Because there's a lot of different sports and there's a lot of different meditation styles. And it's about experimenting and trying which one works for you. Now, back in the 90s, was it the 90s? Maybe the early 2000s, I don't know. So I did transcendental meditation. I was recommended it by someone whose opinion I was respected. And yeah, I found it. Really, I've got completely out. Totally, totally out of the loop. I don't do it, but it did help. So I don't. I don't poo poo. The idea it was. I said to the person, I said, if I see one saffron robe or one pair of sandals, I'm out of here. And the guy trained me was wearing a three pinstripe suit. That's the bizarre. That's the problem, I think, with meditation, isn't it? Is that it comes with that stigma of a saffron righteous garbage. And it was so weird. So it was a week of sort of training, which I did this Course. And at the end, I had to bring some fruit and flowers. So I got some fruit and flowers. Here we go. And then I was given my mantra. I thought, yeah, okay. And he says, now, off you go. And I. I was very embarrassed. I was in a very small room and I thought, this is going to be so crap. And I'm going to giggle because I'm a terrible giggle when I'm nervous or when I'm really angry. I gig giggle. It's a weird thing. And I'm thinking, this isn't going to work. This is. I was gone. Absolutely gone. I couldn't believe it. I was absolutely out of it instantly. It completely threw me a loop. It was extraordinary. Yeah, yeah. Tm the transcendental one is one I like as well. I learned that in Kathmandu. But although you can learn it, I learned mine, I think, in Wimpole Street. Not quite as exciting. Yeah. W1 but here's the thing, right? And it goes back to when you were sitting there for 10 hours. God, I get so bored and all I've got rattling around my head when I'm trying to do this. Michael, I don't know if you've ever tried. Mike, have you ever tried meditation or anything like that? Nah, I'm taking that as a no. Let's take it as a no. And I haven't done it for ages. But I got so bored, I'd sit there and I'd do everything they suggest thinking, oh, I've got things to do. This is ridiculous. I can't sit here any longer. I've got to get on. I got stuff to answer, I got stuff to write, I got meetings that. I can't sit here anymore. That's me, you see? That's me. I just. It drove me nuts eventually. I can relate to that. And it is really about training your mind to concentrate on one thing. Whatever. Whatever. It may be possible. Yeah, I wish. Yeah, I wish. My partner goes mad because. And I go, well inside my head. It's like a firework display. I don't want it to be like that. But it's like a fire, and everything's happening the whole time. Never stops. Yeah. Drives me nuts. Can't concentrate on one thing, you know, Always think about the next thing. Maybe there's a different meditation or style of meditation that may work for you. Whether that's a guided one where you're listening to instructions that might be more helpful. Is that like headspace? Is that like a guided meditation? Well, there's many on YouTube where it's just. He listens. I've got a few recordings on my phone, which I really resonate with. And what is like a guided meditation thing? Because, I mean, you know, when you say guided, I think of like, you know, the wind blowing kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Again, always there for you, James. My great sound effects. My sound effects board, and it can be a good one. I like is just like a body scan. So it's telling you to sort of focus on one part of the body and then it's amazing how we. You. You're. You're focusing on maybe your hand, then you will start working up your arm and into your head or down, down the back. I always get scared when I do those. I don't know what it is. Scared. Yeah. I always get a bit worried when I do those. Like, okay, what do you think's gonna happen? Hands gonna fall off? But I don't know, it's just. It's because you don't normally like register your hands and then when you're sitting there and you're like registering them, it's quite surreal thing. It's like, oh, my God, that's like, you know, that's my finger and I'm like, you know. You know what I mean? You never actually think about what it is your hands do until you sit there and. And you think about it and it's like a weird. Yeah, just more awareness, isn't it, around these body parts and I find that a bit like, I don't know, how does that help? Calms you, doesn't it? Yeah, it's not calming. You get. Makes you scared. Different strokes for us. Different strokes. Oh, that's what they say now. I'm going to come back to you, Ollie, but Michael's sitting here very patiently. We're both on the riverbank wearing thick clothes, you two freezing your nuts off, literally and metaphorically. And we're thinking, what the hell, Good luck to them. Families need fathers. You're director of communications there and you were talking when we were in the ad break before, because I think it's really important stuff. And Ollie, jump in whenever you wish. Please do. You're saying that legal aid, completely. The changes in the legal aid system in the UK has had a dramatic effect. It's been pretty amazing what's happened because the government, clearly, after the austerity, sort of 2008 situation, banking crisis, decided they were going to try and save some hundreds of millions and they decided that so far as private family goes, law goes, they would get rid of all legal aid. So all these private applications where people, if they were on low incomes, would have had support, was just disappeared more or less overnight. In 2013, there was a big lobby to try and protect, in particular women who had said that they were alleged that they had been victims of abuse and they kind of made. I'm going to jump in for a second. Why were you hesitating there? Well, because what we wanted, of course, what we want is a system which protects very much those people who are genuine victims of abuse. Absolutely. And at the same time, we don't want a system which encourages people to make allegations of abuse. And unfortunately, the territory of family separation brings both of these things together sometimes. But the legislation wasn't so smart and so clever as to distinguish. So what you've got is a situation where the government, to try to make things better for those people who were suffering from abuse situations, said, well, okay, in these situations we will continue to offer legal aid. But this has had some positive and also quite substantial negative consequences. And amongst the negative consequences is that there's been since then a 37% increase in the number of allegations of abuse because the making of an allegation of signed statements is sufficient to get legal aid for people who are on lowish incomes. So, and that legal aid is worth on average around five or six thousand pounds. So reading between the lines and not putting words into your mouth, some of these, perhaps signed statements are in the realms of J.K. rowling. Indeed. I mean, that's a difficult thing that it's actually made it more difficult for the courts who have to try to distinguish between genuine cases and cases of either gross exaggeration or complete fabrication. And there's been this huge spike which has happened when the legislation changed, followed by a further spike for another reason, which we can perhaps, if you're interested, go into, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that there has been an increase. I mean, we have feedback also, we've seen it in the statistics, but we've also had feedback from the judiciary and the judiciary are saying the same thing. Senior judges are actually reflecting what junior judges are telling them and recognizing that a lot of the complaints that come today, they turn up at court with a complaint to get legal, they get their legal aid, they get a non molestation order, as they call it, which is the quickest, easiest way to getting legal aid in family, private family law. And then when they turn up at court, the dis issue that caused that was used to get the legal aid doesn't even come up in there doesn't come up in the case. Why are we not surprised? We're going to continue this conversation and just after this short commercial break.