Mother’s Hour – On Your Own Terms

Wait. Hello and a warm welcome to Mother's Hour here on Women's Radio Station with me, Carolyn Van Beers. Today's show is all about taking on motherhood and on your own terms, doing it your own way. You don't have to do it by the book. Whether you're a working mum, a single mum, a part time mum, an old mum like myself, or a very young mum. Today's show will hopefully help you seize that inner confidence and bring out that incredible independent woman I know. And it does happen that we can get a bit lost after having children and you do lose that drive, that confidence that you had before. So hopefully, with the help of my very special guest today, we will inspire you and excite you into taking on motherhood on your own terms. And what a special guest we have in the studio today. This lady is a living legend, believe me. She's a huge icon of mine. She's a journalist, a writer, world famous agnian for over 40 years. She did the first ever, ever travelogue TV series back in the 90s. She's written over 20 books. Please welcome. And a single mum and a working mum. She's definitely done it on her own terms. Welcome to the studio, Irma. Kurt. Oh, dear. Thank you. I hardly recognize myself. It's all true, believe me. And a little bit more. I know this incredible story because I have a bit of insider knowledge on this lady. It's not really a secret, but it might not be something. You know, I married your son. Did you really have four children? So you are now grandmother to my four children. And yes, I've known you for over 20 years and I know how. What a trailblazer you are and what an incredible story you have. Oh, you are very kind and very sweet, Donna Moody. Yeah. And you definitely did do it on your own terms. You know, it was quite different then. You did not do the traditional get married and then I'll have kids. No, I must admit that marriage never really attracted me. Now remember, I come from a different generation. Women were different, especially the way we were treated and the rights that we had were very much smaller and fewer than they are now. And for me, it seemed that marriage made me belong to someone. Almost took away your independence as a possession. And the father of my child agreed with me about marriage, needless to say, that it put. We were both romantics and we thought it put a lock on love. And it seemed to me that love transcended marriage, which was a little foolish, but it worked. Exactly, exactly. So we are gonna get on with the show. Now, don't forget, Irma is an agony aunt. She's gonna be giving us loads of advice on you single mums out there, working mums, and just how she did it in her way. I'm looking forward to delving into a little bit of that later on in the show. And don't forget, you can email me if you want any more information about this show or Mother's Hour in general. It's Caroline@WomensRadiostation.com that's Caroline@WomensRamiostation.com so, Irma, let's go back to the beginning. The four kids you were brought up in New York. Tell me a bit more. Well, I was delivered to my parents in New Jersey, across the river from Manhattan. I have mother's announcement, the birth announcement. I was the firstborn. They planned to have two kids, and I was the first. And my birth announcement says, we have a new baby. It's printed. The baby weighs, I don't know, £6. It's a girl. And in mother's handwriting in brackets. Drat it. She wanted a boy. Oh, yes, but that is. Do you know, it took me a long time, Carolyn, to forgive them. I must have been well into my teens before I realized that of course they were only going to have two kids. And in those days you wanted a boy because a girl was raised to be someone else's business, you know. And also you had to pay for a wedding, which is not cheap. But she didn't put them through. You didn't actually do that. So born in 1935, am I correct? I wasn't. I have a very funny article. I'm very old here. I've got a very funny article here, and it actually says that you were the oldest of eight children. Oh, here we. No, no, my father was, ah. Irma was born in New Jersey, 1935. The oldest of nine children. You're kidding. That would have been fun. Instead, I had a brother. Now, let me tell you, when my brother came along, I was four years old and they were delighted. They brought him in from the hospital. And I remember my father saying, irma, meet your brother, the doctor. And his initials are Michael Dean, M.D. so he was, in a funny way, Carolyn, being a girl, although they wanted a boy set me free. They didn't pay that much attention to what I was getting up to. And as soon as I learned that, I could take the subway to Greenwich Village for a quarter for 5 cents in those days, I used to go out to play with my friends when I was about 14 and actually I would go to Greenwich Village under the Hudson river and listen to the poets in the cafes. They'd let youngsters in they obviously didn't want to get. I wouldn't dream of having a drink. The days were more innocent. Times were more innocent then, and I took advantage of that. So you went off to university, to Columbia, got an English teacher in Columbia. I went to Columbia. And when my acceptance, when my. I took an exam and when the results of the exam, my entrance exam for any university of my choice, when the results came, my father opened them before I. And I said, dad, what? I was about 17, I guess. Dad, how did I do? How did I do? And he looked at me and he said, oh, Irma, no man will ever love you. Because that is the way the attitude was to girls in those days. And he had a point. He had a point. I had better marks than most of the boys in my school. And what were you going to do, by the way? I went to a down market school because I'd been put into a very good one for a while. And then I was taken out and my brother went all the way through the good one because, and I quote my father, I'm not going to pay a fortune for a girl's education now. It sounds awful, Carolyn, but it wasn't. It was parenting of those days. We're talking more than 80 years ago. He came from a family of eight kids. He couldn't even go to high school. He was the first born boy. He couldn't do anything until the others were educated. He drove a taxi around New York before he could go to college. Wow. So you were quite unique even then and almost doing your own thing even then by going off to university. And I think in some ways it's because I was born when girls weren't expected to be. So nobody really thought I would be. So you finished your university degree. What pulled you over to Europe? Because obviously you live in London now. And my first love, and I mean I'm talking of true love, was Paris. I went on a student tour. I worked selling. What did I sell? Shoes. Oh, my goodness. In my summer holiday in order to get enough money to join a student tour. And I fell for Paris. One look at Paris, I think I was what, 15 or 16. Just my heart went. I love it here. The artistry, the artistry. And it went with my generation of Americans. I went to university and I got a good degree and my mother wanted me to take. To become a social worker. She had been One. And I said, no, I'm going to. I want to live in Paris. There was no money going to be given me for a trip to Paris. Boom. So I waited on table for a year and a half. I was probably the most highly educated waitress in New York. And didn't you take a boat? You didn't take a boat, darling, to go in those days. We're talking almost a century ago. And in those days you went by the ocean. I still love travel by sea, but of all. Wow. So you get to Paris and you start living your. I'm just passing her a bit of water. Yes, that's fine. It's emotion. Okay, so you get to Paris and this is your dream now. And this really was very unusual for a woman. Are we talking in the 1950s, 1960s, I can't even remember. No, it would have been after unit. It was 1957. Okay. And I went alone. And that's so brave. My first love was Paris. I won't tell you about the adventures. I mean, I hitchhiked with two friends to Istanbul. We hitchhiked across then Yugoslavia, it sounds now. I suppose it would be too dangerous, but it was wonderful. And oh la la. There were so many things. But I won't go into all that. How long did you stay in Paris before you fell out of love with Paris? Well, you didn't really fall out of love, but you decided to take a new adventure, didn't you? I fell out of love with Paris? No. I was walking one day in the. Sorry, darling. In the only decent garment I had. I was teaching English at the Berlitz School. And a Parisienne of the time, very well dressed and beautiful, stopped in front of me on the Champs Elysees and she stamped her foot and she said, black is not worn during the day. And that was it. There were lots of other things. I thought, you know what? I better go back. I don't think I belong here. And I went back for a little while, but not for long. Tried Paris again. It failed again. And this time I thought, nope, I'd just been to see a performance of King Lear. And I thought, nope, I'm going to go where Shakespeare worked. I'm going to London. I'm going to give it a try. And that was it. And that's where you settled and you now have a house in London and in France? Well, I have the family. I don't have a house. I have a studio in London and one in France. Okay, we're going to take a short break right now. But we're going to come back and talk a little bit more about with Irma, about being a working and single mum. 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Women's radio station to keep up to date with all our exciting programmes. Welcome back to Mother's Hour here on Women's Radio Station. It's me, Carolyn Van Beers. Don't forget you can get in touch at any time by emailing me on CarolineWingsRadiostation.com and you join me in part two of our Absolutely amazing show, Motherhood. Doing it on your own terms, doing it your own way with my very special guest, Irma Kurtz, who, if you missed the early part of of the show, happens to be my mother in law, even though she's an amazing journalist, author, writer of over 20 books ago. Yes, so. And you really are a trailblazer because in those days most people did, and it is a fact, get married and then have children and you did not choose to do it that way. Well, no. Now, there's one thing I want to make a very important point. I think. I don't think all women must have a child in order to be fulfilled. I don't think that's fair. I don't think any rule can cover all of us. No, I think that's very important to remember the person we're sent here to find. I know now in old age is ourselves and not everyone has to have a child, but it's a wonderful thing to do. So we're just talking a bit about your early years and you lived in Paris and then you came to London. I came to London. And that's when you started writing and being a journalist? Well, I came flat broke to London. I started writing ad copy for Tinned Soups. Well, it earned me, just about earned me a living. And in my spare time I wrote for myself. I always have kept a journal. And I wrote a piece called Love in Capital Cities because I traveled a great deal in Europe and it was about the different ways that continental men flirted, Italian men flirted, slightly different fashion from French men, very different, etc. And I submitted it to what was then Queen magazine and it was rejected. So I kind of didn't know what to do. I submitted it then to King magazine. It was like Playboy magazine. They didn't take the piece, but they gave me a job. And I was working for a girly magazine, writing clean. Okay. And then I finally submitted that same piece to a brand new magazine called Nova. Wow. And the amazing. And edited a wonderful magazine of its time. Probably one of the best I've ever. Probably the best I've ever worked for. And I was. The piece was accepted and the editor bought me too. He gave me a job immediately as staff writer for what turned out to be the second third edition of Nova under his editorship of Nova. And that was the beginning. So Nova, for those people who don't know, was really the coolest fashion magazine of its time, wasn't it? It was pushing all the boundaries. It was more than fashion. One of the important pieces that I wrote was a cover story called they Consent in Private. And it was when the ABC was trying to change the laws against homosexuality. And we came out and it was a huge outsized magazine, much bigger than the others with a beautiful photograph in the middle, always on the COVID Very special. It was the invention of absurdity. A great editor, Dennis Hackett, and probably the best graphic designer I've ever known, Harry Peccinotti. They made a work of genius, which of course was ahead of its time. So it couldn't last. Wow. I'm Molly Parkin. Oh, dear Molls. Molly Parkin was our. She wouldn't mind if I call her our crazy fashion editor. Which allowed us to do fashion that you would never see anywhere else. She was offbeat and gifted. It was groundbreaking. And it was also, you know, getting a lot of the stuff from the bohemian crowd in London. And the here, here, you know, 1960s exciting scene. That is what destroyed it because unfortunately both men and women read it. And advertisers don't like that, do they? Because those who advertised and still do women's so called glossies, you know, why are you going to advertise high heels when half your readership, well, not half, but a third are men? So it was tricky. Dennis was kicked upstairs. The size shrank. Let's not go into it. But it did get me when it folded. I left before it folded. I saw it coming and I became a freelancer. And to my amazement, I made a living and traveled the world, which is, you see, Carolyn, I had one. I was born with wanderlust. I wanted to see the world so much. Wanted to see the world. It's hard to explain to somebody who doesn't have that drive? Not to go with tours and cruise boats, but on my own. On your own terms? On my own terms. To see the world, yes. And I, as I know you, I've known you for 20 years, you very much have done that. And that's never held you back. And I think. I just think you're so brave because in those days, not a lot of single women were going around doing what you were doing. They were all married, you know, having their 2.4 children. And, you know, I was certainly having boyfriends. I mean, I did. We did in that period. So let's talk about. When did you decide you wanted to have a child? When the door began to creak on the possibility of having a child. I was 37. And in those days, 37 was older than it is now. And I remember thinking, I'm a born giver in a strange way. I think most writers are, in a way. And the best gift you can give is life to another. And I must have a child. I'm one of those women who must. I am not saying all women must, but I knew that I had to. And indeed, fortunately, my son's father agreed with me, whom I know very, very well. So he was your boyfriend at the time? Yes. An amazing artist who again, was part of your kind of beatnik, very cool London crowd, wasn't it? We've outgrown beatniks. Were already becoming a little bit passe. Okay. He is a true artist. And artists stand on a plinth, and the plinth is ego. No, it's true. And they wouldn't deny it. I used to know Francis Bacon. We talked about this once. They have to. It's the loneliest job on the planet, making art, and they have to keep themselves. There was no question of marriage ever. But of course he agreed. I wouldn't have had a child with him, a baby. I would have to have found somewhere else if he hadn't have agreed. Wow. So that was kind of you just. I mean, that is really doing it on your own terms. Because I think that's very brave to have made that decision without this security, that blanket that a wedding or marriage gives you. It didn't feel brave. It just felt necessary. It was imperative and it wasn't. You know, it's funny because I've never really thought about it before in those terms, but it wasn't for me. It was imperative. It was somehow, as I say, the only gift I could give really was life to another being. And I had pussycats. But they didn't do it. So 1972, Mark was born in London. And funny enough, history did kind of repeat itself because I think I was 37 when I had my first child. At the same hospital. That's right, I remember. Oh, yes, I remember. I thought, yes, yes, this great, great place. So there you were, you essentially were not single, but you were a working mum still with your own child. And who came knocking at the door and how come you took that job? Wasn't Cosmopolitan came knocking at the door? Well, yes, Cosmo. I had to interview Helen Gurley Brown. Now she was a great celebrity at the time because she was the inventor of Cosmo. Only in America, there was only an American, Cosmo. I interviewed her and we got on really well. She was born in. Oh, that's another story. In a slum of the deep South. She was an utterly self made woman. I had great respect for her. I thought the magazine was okay, you know, it was pretty avant garde in those days for women because it was quite sexy. And Helen out of the blue said, would I be the. Well, Advice to the Love, Lauren, it was called Columnist for an English version that they were just going to open. And I said, yes, I'd be delighted, but because I desperately needed money, it wasn't, you know, I was supporting a child. And your father was an artist. Whose father was an artist. And I was trying to pay off a 5,000 pound mortgage. Gosh. I saw the house that I bought for £5,000, by the way, on the market for 1 million3, but let's not go there. And I said, yes, but only one thing, Helen dear, could we call it the agony column? I don't want to call it Advice to the Lovelorn. And so it began. I thought, you know, I'll do it for a year or two. And then 45 years later. But you know what I mean. You were the agni aunt for Cosmopolitan in England, but then you got the same job in America. No, America was first here and then English. Cosmo began and I got the job in England. But weren't you Cosmopolitan's agony out worldwide? I was, in a sense. I would be sent wherever Cosmo was going to start a new edition. They'd send me to find and help a local. So I'd do their column for three months in translation in Japan, believe me, it was in translation for three months and then they'd find somebody else. Wow. Because in those days, I mean, you bought a magazine and that was the first page you went to. You went to the Agony page. And it was like it was the first thing I ever, ever read before I looked at any other features or. No, you could say that it was a maternal sort of job because you looked at each letter with, at the person who wrote it. In those days you could. Sometimes they were handwritten. You'd hold it up to see what they'd crossed out because that's what they didn't want you to know. These days emails are very different. Yes, yes, yes. And we should talk a little bit more about that in a few minutes time. We're talking to Irma Kurtz. It's her life as a working mum, as a single mum, which we will go into in a little while and how you did it all and you did it on your own terms. We're going to be back after these short messages. Don't forget, you can email me carolinewomensradiostation.com about anything you've heard on today's show. Welcome to the women's radio station supporting women's well being. Women's radio station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website womensradiostation.com for more information. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. 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For more information on how you can sponsor a Show, go to womensradiostation.com Women's radio station supporting women's well being. Welcome back to Mother's Hour with me, Carolyn Van Beers here on Women's Radio Station. We are halfway through our very exciting show. Special guest in the studio with me today is none other than Irma Kurtz, a journalist, a writer, an author of over 20 books, a TV celebrity as well. You actually, Irma, I'm just going to digress here for a little bit. You know, we see all these travel programs now of which a few of my husband does direct, but all these programs, you know, great British railway journeys and all these travelogues. And you actually did, I think, probably one of the first ones in the 90s. It's possible that it was, I don't really, I wouldn't dare say because somebody will come up with. We followed Mark Twain in his book about people who had gone living abroad. He loved to travel. It was his excuse, you see. And so we went to places that I would otherwise probably not have seen. And it was thrilling. It was my favorite. I must say something about television, though, dear when you make a television program, the recognition period in the street is about three days and then forget it. Especially these days, it turnovers much faster. But it was a thrilling adventure. The difficulty was that I'd already had a child and now his father and I stayed friends. And fortunately his father, with the help of a rather expensive au pair, was able to care for little Mark when I had to go too far away to get back at night or, you know, I mean, you were Was Mark about two when you, when you both decided to kind of listen to. He was still in arms, he was still a babe in arms. Actually he was not yet. He was just toddling. And I remember he cried one night, woke me up. I got up from beside his father and went to Mark's bedroom in the house that I was buying and the mortgage I was paying for. And I took him out of bed and I rocked him in my arms and sang to him, would you believe. And as he fell asleep I remember thinking his father and I are bound to break up and it's better we do it now because if we wait much longer he's going to blame him, the baby might blame himself in some way for coming, for being responsible for the breakup. And so sure enough, I mean his father was not. Didn't want to maintain being a. He couldn't be a live in dad. It just wasn't his way. And so yeah, we broke up but quite friendly way we stayed. I only spoke to him the other day. That surely was quite scary. I mean you then all of a sudden you've got a house, a mortgage, you're trying to work, you've got a young child. How did you find the strength just to. Darling, don't forget that the financial business and support had been all mine anyway, it wasn't as if I was giving up any. On the contrary, in a way I was saving a bit of money because in fairness he was wonderfully. Is a wonderfully creative artist. But that didn't mean he could help me with the housekeeping. So nobody and my parents had an interesting position. But do you want me to rattle on about it? Well, no, I mean, I think let's first of all talk about how you did the juggling. Single mum, working mum, how did you manage that? You said you mentioned an au pair. Do you know, even now I wonder how I managed it. I did take an au pair in. Fortunately I had a spare room where I could put an au pair. I paid them the going rate which at the time was about £15 a week and food and that they never had to work at night unless I was out of the country, in which case Tony would come and help, Mark's father would come and help and I preferred them to go out on weekends because I liked to be alone with my baby. My boy, he was quite a big boy by that time. He was, you know, and there was a. There was a good. There was a school at the bottom of our cul de sac where he was where I thought I could send him until the day our mother went mad and tried to kill the headmistress. And the place was full of ambulances and police cars and I thought maybe not. So I had then the extra cost of my son's education. But it was worth every penny. Oh, yes. I mean, that was quite a big expense. You did it single handedly on your own. You literally paid for him to go to. Yes, and I. And I loved him with all my heart and I would have given him the world. I gave him life, I gave him the world and I had to make it as comfortable for him as possible. Did you ever feel like, oh, I wish I was around a bit more, or did you just literally, we're just getting on with it. There was one time that I had to go do a story. It was somewhere in the Middle east and Mark's dad stayed with him and they came to the airport to meet me when I returned and Mark ran towards me, mommy, mommy, Mommy, Mommy. And I'll never forget the bliss of giving him a big hug. But then he drew back and he didn't speak to me for the whole drive home from the airport. Oh, I know that Mark. You marry him. He does that quite a lot. The silent treatment I got. Yeah, it was fair enough though, because, you know, why did you go away is what he was thinking. Why did you leave? I had to. I had to earn the money from flying to. It was to Cairo, actually. And I think that's very important if you are a single mum, you've got to balance it out and say, you know, I'm doing this for the greater good. I'm doing this because I want to give my child everything and if I'm not there all the time, then, you know, his father is, or, you know. Yes, I was lucky in that his father always would be able to come and fill in. It wasn't required very often, Carolyn. Because of Cosmo. Because once I had one steady job and then I had a column in the Evening Standard later, so that kept me balanced. But being freelancer ain't easy. Well, no, on the one hand it ain't easy, but at least you had flexible, slightly more flexible working hours than say, if you'd had to go into an office. And that is what we're all trying to come in for now. Remember that the flexible working hours often meant working till three in the morning and then having to get up at 7. So it wasn't always to my physical advantage. But I don't regret a moment of it. As I say, I would have given him the moon only when he started. When I realized it would have to be fee paying education at that time, I had to move out of the house. I had to sell the house and move into much smaller quarters. And that money helped pay for his education. Yeah, and when you were. So you're the Agni Cosmopolitan, you're still writing and you're writing all these books. I mean, this is all in Mark's childhood. I mean I've got. If I could just go, please, because there's some amazing books here. You've got Grand Dragon in 1981. Oh, that was fiction. I discovered something very important. Fiction's the only way to tell the truth without getting a lawsuit. You give them a different name. The Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan. That was who that was about. Yeah. So Sister Crisis, A Guide to Emotions. So lots of self help books, fiction books. And then you went on to the travelogue books. Oh, that was what I probably. Had I not been a single mum, that's what I would have done. I'm not saying should have, but I could have and I would have. But I don't regret, you know, the choice I made. So say that again. If you had, I would have been a travel writer. I probably would have. I've always wanted to take trains and public transport. That kind of travel is my favorite kind of trav. And I've always wanted to go down the whole coast of the Pacific, the west coast of America, all the way down from the Canadian bit to Tierra del Fuego. But what can you do that would take about a year probably. Well, you wrote the Great American Bus Ride. That was in 1993. That was a very decorated bus. Just lots of praise and awards and even I'd heard of that one. It was great fun to ride. It was the most engrossing and fulfilling writing I think I've ever done. And how long did that take you? And where was Mark? Mark was at fee paying schools then. Now I found a very good school in Dorset and I took him there. Oh, maybe I shouldn't tell you this, Karen. I took him there for a meeting with the headmaster. He'd been accepted and I was going to move to Dorset. Oh really? And we were going to live in a cottage near the school. And on the train coming home, he was 14. Then on the train coming home, he said, mom, can we afford for me to be a boarder? And I realized that walking next to us was a very pretty girl. I better not tell you about it. I Know it very, very well. Yes. Was she probably a bit older than him as well? That seems to be his type. Slightly older. She may have been. They were just taking boarders in in those days. So he boarded and you were able to stay lond been a boys school and I had him enrolled as a day boy but he wanted to be a boarder and he was very successful. He became, you know, the head boy. The head boy, okay. So you wrote the Great American Bus Ride. So he was at school then. So you were able to go over to America. And how long was that? Three months, six months? I was about three, three or four months, I think. I can't remember. You know, I only stopped in San Diego. My brother lives in California, so I stopped there and learned about California. It's cold and it's tap. And so this was like quite, you know, kind of at the height of your career. You were writing books, I guess so in the early 90s. Do you see dir in a funny way? My memory of this period is not great because it was frenetic. I'm not resenting it. I loved it. But what a frenzy. Every time the phone rang it was another piece of work or I had to go. I did a lot of radio and television appearances because we lived quite near the center of the BBC for a long time in those days. And weren't you on TV AM quite a lot? Yeah, they call me at the last minute generally a long time ago, but I haven't done any and it's all changed. So you really were literally a full time working mum, full time single mum, putting your child, you know, through a very good education and doing it in your own way, really. You weren't following any guidebooks or any. No, but there is something. Yes, I wasn't following any. Who wrote guidebooks about how to survive. I had to. Nobody else had done it. But yes, you were very much doing your own thing and I really, really do admire you for that. We are going to go to a little break now, but we're going to come back and hopefully I'm going to get out of you some of your best advice that you can give mums who are maybe single mums or working mums and maybe just have a little bit of your best advice. Oh, dear. Okay. Welcome to women's radio station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on women's radio station. Hello and welcome to future classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on women's radio station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting Women's well being and we're talking all things autism women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon, I'm a birth doula and mum of three and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show From Tummy to Mummy here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything, fertility, pregnancy, birth and baby related right through to the menopause and beyond. 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Or Facebook, Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programmes. Welcome back to Mother's Hour with me, Carolyn Van Beers, here on Women's Radio Station. Well, we're just in the part four of our fantastic show with Irma Kerr, who really is a trailblazer. She is a mother who did it on her own terms, someone I respect an awful lot and love because she's my mother in law. You better respect her. But we really have seen a beautiful insight into how you did, you know, working mum, single mum, bringing up a child. And you did it well and you enjoyed it, didn't you? Oh, I loved it. And joy is a strange word. There were hard, hard days and there were nights when I cried myself to sleep for various reasons. But oh, how I loved that baby the minute they put him in my arms and he opened his big blue eyes and I thought, love. But you're giving all this advice to millions, millions of women around the world. You are the Agni, am, the Cosmopolitan. You know, a huge part of your week was taken up by answering these letters, reading them more than answering them. I was only allowed to answer five. Wow. And did you pick which one? I had to. And it was very difficult. That was the hardest part of a job. Because your mailbox were full, weren't they? Oh, gosh, yes. I think I must have read a million. Your husband, my son, when he was not very old, bought me the best gift. A shredder, an electric shredder. And I could shred. Otherwise I had stacks of mail. But at least when I read things, I could shred them. So they would go to Cosmopolitan, presumably, and then they would be transported to me, to you. Now, in the beginning, they all were. And then one of the Cosmo editors began to make decisions about which I should answer. And that was the beginning of the end of me and Cosmo. Right? I'm not blaming. That's the way life is. And I thought. And that was the beginning of the end of agony auntieing too, dear, because you'll notice now there are fewer of us. I'm not doing it anymore. I haven't done it three or four years. There are fewer agony aunts and it's moved online, which is, I think, a terrible shame, because in actual fact, we do need to talk, as we know from just this radio station. Women, we need to talk. It is good for us. We like to reinvent ourselves and talk. We are good at talking, that's very important. And I think we're losing the opportunity. Talking is not tic tac, tic tac, tic tac on a little machine that you've got in your bag. And it's so bad for us keep comparing ourselves to everyone else on social media, and that's what we're doing and it's making us feel bad. And the important thing to remember is that each of us is an individual. And that, by the way, is, well, bah. And itself. You have to do what your inner self tells you is right for you and stop looking at everyone else's life and thinking, I want to do it like that, because that's not right for you. If it's wrong for you, which it might turn out to be, forgive yourself. That's another lesson you have to learn if you're going to be independent, is to forgive yourself. So if there are mums out there and they're perhaps a little bit lost, they've had their 1, 2, 3 children, and you do lose yourself a little bit in that time and you definitely lose your confidence, what would be your advice to say, a mum who. How does she get that independence, that courage again, that, you know, to pick themselves up? How do you. How do you find yourself? It's a very strange thing. The hardest thing about being a mum, the love is easy. That comes easy not to everyone, but to almost everyone. Love comes easily. What comes hard is letting go. And the most important thing we do for our children is equip them to leave us and lead their own lives. And how you cope with that is the important thing. Because there is a point in that loving relationship where you must let go of one who is possibly the person you've loved most in your whole life, or one of two or three of you. Oh, you're making me very sad. No, no, no, it's worth it. It's worth it because look what happens. They may well start a whole bunch of other people for you to love the way you and your husband did. Four, to be precise. Yes. So do you have any other bits of advice or maybe pitfalls that people could have perhaps fallen into as a single mum and as a working mum? Well, I have a few points of advice as a mum in general, which is first not to forget that your child is your discovery, not your invention. You know, of course you're going to give him or her the best education and the rules at home that will make that person socially acceptable outside of home. But when it comes to finding his or her fulfillment that, I'm afraid, is up to him or to her. And you have to let them go, even when it frightens you or worries you. I mean, if you wanted a professional classical pianist and he's gone into pop music, I'm sorry, that's what he wants to do. It can't be much more spooky than that. But you have to grit your teeth and let them go. Can you think of any other love where part of the loving is letting them go and the other is to be sure that you don't turn pleasure into a weapon that the child can use? Now, this is pretty basic, but this is because I've been noticing obesity in the young so much in the street. And I think that's because sweets, for example, have been made something bad. Don't do that. You don't get any dessert unless you eat your meat. You know, they've made a reward and a weapon. And it's a weapon that can be used to get even with the people who have deprived you of those sweets. I use sweets. It could be many other things, too, you understand? But the thing you have to do is balance, just balance. And don't turn sweets or anything else into a weapon that can be used against you and the child himself or herself. That's a long story in itself. And from the moment your child learns to talk, listen to what he or she says. And if you disagree, listen and then explain why you disagree instead of just saying, don't do that, don't say that. And I'm so guilty of that because I've got four of them and they've all got personalities. And now. And they're all. I'm trying to listen, but I sometimes don't have time. For example, last night we are trying to make birthday presents, not keep buying. So last night all. It's Daddy's birthday tomorrow. No, at your son's birthday. And so we all decided we wanted to do some baking. Now I've got four children in one kitchen all trying to bake, and I'm only one person. Everyone's trying to. But, Mummy, please, can I just say. And I'm like, ah. And in the end, I was like, okay, I just kind of have to do one at a time. And it's like that, just taking time with each child and listening. Yes, you could do yours in alphabetical order. And we must say that three of them are triplets, remember? And the two girls are twins who are as different within themselves as two people can be, but they are identical twins. They're identical to look at, but not in how they react and what they're observing of life. They're very different. And the first person to point that out to me was your big boy, Jasper. Jasper, the big boy. He said to me, you know, Granny, Soho? I was still living in Soho. It was a long time ago. He said, they're very different from each other. And that's what I mean when I say, listen to your children. Because men, they come up with some very wise, pure statements. So hear them. Even if you're impulses to disagree. Well, what would happen? Okay, you're listening to your child and your child saying, but Mommy, you never come to the school gate or you never, you know, but you're a working mum. I mean, I mean, what advice would you give to that mum who's completely torn? I think it would be worth taking as much time off to do those things as you can. Even if it means losing money. Time at work is more difficult. I was lucky that I was a freelance. So when I took time off, it was from my own typewriter and it meant I'd stay up till four in the morning doing the work I hadn't done because I took three hours off. It's harder if you're employed and it's. I would almost say it has no real solution. But I hate to think that things don't have a solution. But also, and what you just said is, don't have any regrets if you are feeling that and you can take a week off and do some stuff with, you know, then do that. Oh, yes. And be malleable, you know, to the situation. Exactly. Be as flexible as you can be. And remember the most important thing again is listen to the child, to what the child's saying. They're a lot smarter than we think they are. Indeed. And before we go, and it's just about nearly the end of the show, do you have any regrets? Yes, one regret. When Mark, my son, broke out of my hand holding my hand and raced towards a busy street and almost stepped into it. I grabbed him back and I slapped him. And it's the only time I ever struck him. It came from nature. There was no way. You never do that. And I still to this day remember that moment and wish I could have thought of a better way. But it was an automatic animal reflex. I don't think you can regret that. I think that was completely a natural reflex, like you said. And he's lived to tell the tale, isn't he? You'll know that better than I thank you, Emma. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. You are probably one of the, I won't say the first, but you were definitely a trailblazer in the fact that you were a working mum in the 70s and the 80s and the 90s, a single mum for much of that time, doing it your own way. And you said a great line. You said, I wore jeans in those days and no one wore. Is that true? No one wore jeans then. You could only buy jeans from men, men's shops. You were one of the girls who wore jeans. Somebody said at my school reunion, my university reunion, you know, so you were trailblazing back then and doing it, doing it in your very own way. Thank you so much for coming in and telling us your story and hopefully inspiring you mums out there because you can do it and you can be that independent, amazing mum that just works for you, doing it your way, taking on motherhood, being strong and yeah, you can do it. Join me next time. Welcome to the women's radio station supporting women's well being. Women's radio station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website womensradiostation.com for more information. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. Many women want to be smarter with their cash, but just don't know where to start. @empowerandenrich.com you will find a host of options to help you take charge of your finances and learn how to put your money to work for you in an easy, affordable way. Get in touch with me@empowerandenrich.org and let's change your future together. Hello, my name is Natasha Ann Kelleher. Welcome to you lovely lady listeners of your very own women's radio station. Over the coming months, I'll be doing a survey in big, big brand coffee shops, interviewing customers, asking why they like to drink coffee and if they would like to give us a health tip for our listeners. The most shared and liked post will be the winner of a prize. Stay tuned for further details. Hi, I'm Carolyn Van Beers. Please join me for a brand new show here on women's radio station. It's Mother's Hour. If, like me, you're a mum juggling far too many balls and dropping most of them. This is definitely the show for you. We'll examine the highs and lows of motherhood and make sure you laugh out loud as we take on this challenging role together with spoonfuls of advice. Incredible stories. It will be refreshing, honest and funny. Look at being a mum Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. 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