Political Motivation – Equality Now, Anti Sex Trafficking

Hello. Welcome to another episode of Political Motivation, now broadcasting live on the women's radio station. I'm Rosie MacLeod. This is a station that connects women all over the globe. From our studio here in London. In this show, I take a look at the grassroots campaigners working to make the world a better place for women and girls. Welcome to the first live episode. If you've been following this program, you might have heard me talk to Jackie Hunt from Equality Now, a women's rights group, about their work on justice for the victims of sex crime. In this episode, I will be taking a look at their campaign to crack down on sex trafficking. Here I am speaking to the campaign manager, Samantha Schweppenstetter, to introduce and outline the problem. I'm here in London and I'm delighted to be joined by Samantha Schweppenstetter. Hello. Thank you so much for having me today. So you are the officer in charge of equality? I'm here in London and I'm delighted to be joined by Samantha Schwepensteder. Hello. Thank you so much for having me today. So you are the officer in charge of Equality Now's campaign to crack down on sex trafficking? That is correct. I'm working to end sex trafficking within, specifically the UK as well as across Europe for Equality Now. So to talk about the issue, just outline the problem for us and what your research has shown us. Sure. So we focus specifically on trafficking in women and girls for sexual exploitation. And the reason behind that is because within Europe, this is the most common form of human trafficking. We know that 71% of all victims of human trafficking are women and girls. And within the form of exploitation of sexual exploitation, 96% of all victims are women and girls. So. So as a women's rights organization, we use the law to advocate for legal change in support of women's equality. We recognize that trafficking is very much a gendered phenomenon, a form of gender based violence, and that particularly affects women and girls. Yes. Now you say that you're focusing on trafficking to the uk. It's one of those things that you always think, it's never going to happen to me. There was a slave encampment was in the rural town that I grew up in, Layton Buzzard. And one of the reasons that they were able to get away with it was because it's a countryfied area and everyone thinks nothing bad ever happens there. Are you looking at sex trafficking within the UK from one city to another? Yes, absolutely. That's actually quite a common misconception, is that trafficking requires there to be cross border movement and that it's people from other countries that are being trafficked here. And of course that does happen as well. But trafficking also occurs within the UK to British citizens as well. British national are among the most common victims for particularly child sexual exploitation. Trafficking in children, you see a lot of British victims, but also British adult women, particularly within prostitution can be exploited and trafficked as well. And is this happening in the rural areas where people don't think anything bad is ever going to happen? What we've seen from the National Crime Agency is that it's happening everywhere, that there's nowhere that is completely free from human trafficking. Yeah, it's something, it's sometimes called sort of the crime that's hidden in plain view because really on any high street, in shops, in flats, there's potential for victims of trafficking to be exploited there. Wow. I mean, perhaps it's darkly not quite surprising when you think that they've had to bring in the modern slavery bill and they've had to raise awareness of people being kept as slaves. Now this sex trafficking problem, it's not a modern slavery issue and not a sex trade, not a sex trade issue either. This is a crisis of organized ongoing rape. Yes, actually that is really the right way to look at it. This is not an issue of forced labor, for example. This is very much an issue of sexual assault, of sexual violence, of rape. We know from looking at statistics from the previous national support provider to victims of human trafficking within the UK called the Poppy Project, that the women that they were supporting who had been trafficked for sexual exploitation were being forced to see on average 11 so called clients a day. Well, we need to keep in mind that every single man that uses a woman in prostitution who's been trafficked is actually committing a crime of rape against her, whether he might realize that or not, be aware of it or not. It's not always, you know, it's a false perception to be able to think that if someone appears to be happy that they're not being controlled by the scenes, that this is consensual engagement or a matter of choice. And that's the crux of the issue, is that men are prepared to pay for sex with complete disregard for the well being of the woman providing that service. Yes, that's correct. It's very much a one sided exchange. It's about one person putting their own sexual gratification over not only the sexual gratification of the other, but even just the basic well being of another person. And if we can talk about it in financial terms. How much are the men paying to use these women? What are these women worth to the traffickers? Well, I mean, that's actually a really interesting question. Globally, we know that trafficking for sexual exploitation is the absolute most profitable form of human trafficking, and it's netting US$99 billion a year. So it's incredibly profitable for human traffickers. And of course, the reason it's profitable is because there are men who are willing to pay to use these women. That is where the profits originate. That's where the money starts. But what is also quite heartbreaking to see is that actually per woman, per exchange, sometimes within the uk, we know of cases where men are paying as little as £10 per engagement with a woman. So on one hand it's showing that actually the male sex buyers really have very little value for the women. But on the other hand, we also know that because in the case of human trafficking, unlike other forms of trafficking, such as with drugs, a woman can be sold over and over and over again, that it actually can quite net quite a lot of profits for the exploiter. And how much rape do the women suffer before help is found? If help is found, yes. So going back to the statistics that I had mentioned earlier that we had gathered from the Poppy project, we know that on average, a woman is raped anywhere from 2,000 to 6,000 times in her situation of trafficking. It depends, of course, how many months she is held in that situation. I think on average is something I want to say about eight months, although I could be mistaken about that. But yet this is really a mass epidemic. And, you know, we know more and more, we recognize the trauma that a woman who experiences one instance of rape in her life might go through and how really life destroying that can be. Imagine this occurring thousands of times to one person. It really. It can be almost impossible to recover from. And it really is a crisis. Yeah, a crisis of violence against women. And one woman's vagina was so sore a doctor couldn't even examine her. Yeah, I actually think that's. That's quite common. You hear of individual cases that are really quite horrific of. You know, you have to remember that what prostitution is, in these cases, it's using bodily orifices of women as objects. So vaginal and anal tearing is quite common. Of course, transmission of STIs. A whole range of really horrific physical and also mental health outcomes that are really difficult to recover from come out of this. So how do the women end up in this situation? Are they coerced? Are they abducted? Are they desperate? It's a combination of all of those. I've seen everything from a case of a college educated, university educated woman from China who was tricked into what she thought was going to be a study abroad opportunity in the UK and ended up being forced into prostitution as well as filmed for pornography. But then also children from really impoverished backgrounds might be, might just be abducted, might be brought thinking that they're going to have better opportunities in the uk, or also, as we've seen in Rotherham, which was a case of organized criminal sex trafficking there, British girls who are also usually just being stereotyped, as you know, these are bad kids, these are kids that are up to no good when really they're being controlled, they're being coerced, they're being exploited. Now, recently in the uk, we saw the appalling news story where it was unearthed that young girls had fallen victim to grooming gangs. And this itself is a form of sex trafficking. The gang's actions included drugging the girls so that, fuelled by the addiction, they would revisit their abusers and the cycle of rape would continue. This crime was largely associated with Rotherham, but it also took place in Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire, the county next to where I grew up. Now, the reason that the grooming gangs were able to commit the offence for so long undetected was largely down to police neglect and it's since been exposed. When I was 16, I was walking home from a fish and chip shop the night of Friday 13th December 2002, and a man I did not know asked me if I wanted to have sex with him. I was so scared and I just ran home screaming and crying. I had no idea whether or not I was being pursued. When I returned home unhurt and told my parents, we alerted the police. I, the police force in question, could not do enough to support and make sure that I was okay and make sure that my contemporaries were protected. They offered me counseling and we knocked on each and every door to inform the residents nearby what had happened and tell anyone with children to avoid that route. So why didn't the girls in Oxford, Milton Keynes and Rotherham receive the same support when they did return home hurt and they did report? How can two police forces under the same crown respond so differently to the same problem? This is a question I asked Samantha. That's actually a really big problem, is training and understanding of the nature of trafficking, how to recognize exploitation, how to recognize coercion, particularly because over time the traffickers have become much more just better. They are always staying one step ahead of the police, I think, in terms of the tactics that they'll use. So, you know, historically you might think of a lot of physical force and violence being used, women being beaten up. And I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but does still happen as well. But also it's really incredible what the psychological coercion and manipulation can do. And so that's certainly a tactic that traffickers are increasingly taking. And it makes it much more difficult to recognize that the violence is occurring, that this is a form of violence. And also. Yeah, so some police forces are, I think, much better equipped and trained to recognize this than others. And certainly we are seeing these really big gaps depending on the area and sort of how much this has been prioritized for the local police force or not. Precisely. I mean, the police who dealt with the incident I just described that happened to me rang up the next day and asked me if I wanted counseling. And they made sure that they helped us go around the houses and knock on the doors of everyone who had children to say, this has happened, don't go that way home. And there was just no support for these other girls living not so far away and within the same country. Yeah, yeah. And as you say, it really is also, it's an issue of racism, of classism as well, and of course, course of sexism, of not caring as much about what happens to women and girls, particularly if they are women and girls from other countries who are most likely to first be treated as an illegal immigrant before they're going to be seen as the potential victim that they are. So talk to me about the role of the Internet in sex trafficking. Yes. So the Internet is a huge facilitator of sex trafficking. It really is the platform that allows traffickers to find potential buyers. What we've seen is the APPG on prostitution and the global sex trade. Earlier this year in July came out with a report that was really looking specifically, well included, looking at that, that found that the Internet in particular, these prostitution websites, are the biggest enabler of sexual exploitation in the United Kingdom. So it really is just creating a marketplace that's even more accessible to more and more people. So it can really get a lot of profits from it. And having said that, having said that, websites that are being used to exploit women in this way only exist because there is a market for it. Yes, that is correct. Human trafficking is first and foremost about profits for the traffickers and they are not going to traffic in so called goods that are not going to Bring them a lot of money. So it really is because there are so many men in the UK and around the world who are willing to pay to use women and girls as objects for their own sexual pleasure, that trafficking for sexual exploitation exists. Without this market, without these men who were really fueling the demand for more and more female bodies, essentially they wouldn't be trafficking in women and girls, it wouldn't bring them a profit and so they would turn to something else. It's really a profit driven crime. Now, given the clandestine nature of the crime, it might be difficult to put a figure on it. But how many women that you know about are being trafficked? That is really difficult to put a figure on. I believe the most recent statistics from the National Crime agency had identified 1,300 about women who had been trafficked for sexual exploitation in the UK last year, year in 2017. But the director of the NCA has also said that even they believe this is just the tip of the iceberg. And they believe, you know, if we're finding around 1300 women, it's probably more likely that it's in the tens of thousands. So maybe something like 13,000 women who are currently in situations of sexual exploitation within the United Kingdom. And where do they tend to be from? Romania, Vietnam. So those are two of the main countries that women come from. Nigeria as well, China is one of them and Albania is one. But really women can come from anywhere. Anyone that's in a vulnerable situation can be taken advantage of. And I've also seen victims, you know, who have come from upper class backgrounds, upper middle class backgrounds from various countries that, you know, if they're trying to escape either often a situation of gender based violence, actually you see that it's one form of gender based violence leading to another, or if they're just trying to make a better lives for themselves and are tricked and are deceived into what they're getting into. I would say that there's no one that could be untouched by human trafficking. It could really happen to any of us if someone decided that they wanted to deceive us and exploit us in that way. And this affects women of which ages, really women of any age, we know that client well again, so called clients. So sex buyers are usually willing to pay more for younger women, for girls. And the market in children is even more profitable than in adults. But again, we've also seen victims who are in their 50s and their 60s who are still actively being sexually exploited. So it really adds, there's a huge age range, but certainly the younger the woman, often the more profits that someone can get out of her because she can be used time and time again. Now, I'm guessing if girls are trafficked from a young age, they're abducted at a young age and then you hear this buzzword or this phrase all the time. Trapped in the sex trade. Do they become trapped in the sex trade? I'm guessing that they become trapped in the sex trade until womanhood. Is there a sort of a Stockholm syndrome there? Are they dependent on it? Would it be actually harder for them to break out of that cycle? I think that's absolutely the case. And one thing that we really see is it's really a false dichotomy to think that there's prostitution or sex work on the one hand and human trafficking on the other, and the two have nothing to do with each other. I think the way you've described it, being trapped in the sex trade and trapped in a cycle is really correct. A lot of cases that we would see are of girls who might be trafficked in a very classic sense of the definition, kidnapped, abducted, sold in prostitution, who then at some point manage to escape, but are most likely escaping in a country where they don't know anyone, where they don't know that there's help available to them, where they don't feel like they can trust anyone. They've had their sense of self so broken down that even once they've left their trafficking situation, they're ending up in a period of street homelessness and again, are vulnerable to further exploitation. They might begin selling sex for survival, but you can hardly say that this is something that they're choosing for themselves. It's really coming out of desperation. And I think we really shouldn't underestimate the psychological impact of being used as an object for other people, people's pleasure throughout your life or for many months or for many years. It really makes you lose all sense of self worth and feel like there are no other options available to you because no one thinks you're good for anything else. No one sees you as the individual human that you are. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of women worldwide. Hungry. An average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio station, we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism, and my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to Women's Radio Station Women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@media mattersforwomen.org. Women's radio Station is passionate about communication and we'd love any thoughts and feedback on our programs. Email presentersomensradiostation.com if there's a topic you'd like to hear about or want to contact your favourite presenter, do get in touch. WRS women's radio station, Voice of Women Worldwide. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity, helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. 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So at the end of my discussion with Samantha and to draw out any underlying factors, we drew all the strings together and spoke about the wider issues of sex work and the dangers faced by sex workers. This problem of sex trafficking bleeds into the issue of sex work. Now, is it fair to say that it bleeds into an issue of sex workers rights or is that not quite accurate? Because you could say all women providing those services are victims of the system. I think you can certainly say, well, all women are victims of a system. The system being patriarchy and patriarchy under capitalism for sure. All of us are really taught to believe to a certain extent through which is reinforced through the media, through film, television, everywhere, that our primary value as females is through our sexiness or our sexual purity. You know, it's always this sort of virgin whore dichotomy that women and girls are being put in. And also, if you look economically at the opportunities that women have had until quite recently, but are still fighting for things such as achieving equal pay, the issues with women being responsible for unpaid care, for child care, you know, there's all of these real structural issues that are giving women fewer and fewer opportunities for survival and pushing women into certain sectors such as cleaning or really low paid, not really well protected forms of economic survival. And so for some women, prostitution can be one of those forms of. But it's certainly, I think we view it as an issue of structural inequality, structural racism, and an issue of capitalism as well, that is pitching some people as exploiters of other people. Now, last time we spoke, we came to the conclusion that women who pose for FHM unloaded are being exploited in the same way as women who are being sex trafficked because the exploitation of women mutates to whichever framework is applicable and whatever men can get away with, whatever the patriarchy can get away with. How do you respond to those who say, well, the women posing in FHM unloaded are consenting adults and perhaps the women being trafficked are not. I think every single human being uses, they make the choices that seem the best to them of the choices they have available in the moment. Everyone has agency, including victims of trafficking. But the point is, when you are a victim of violence or of structural discrimination, you are not given many choices to choose from to begin with. First of all, we can't underestimate the psychological impact of coercion, violence and control, which is already, as we had talked about, going to break someone, break down someone's belief in themselves, their sense of self, make them feel really worthless, and it's as if they have no other option. But also structurally, if women are not being prioritized in education, in the job market, in the same way as men, as boys, they're not going to have as many real life options to choose from. So yes, people are making choices, but we need to question why these are the only choices available. And we actually need to be looking at that from a more macro level, a more structural level, I would say, and think, is this good enough? Do we think as a society that this is good enough for women and girls? That these are the choices that they're being forced to make, essentially. I completely agree. I think rather than campaigning for rights for sex workers, we ought to, one, teach women not to be the victims of the sex trade and secondly, put whatever measures in place we need to to prevent them from ending up in that situation. Yes, we certainly advocate for putting in support mechanisms to support women who are already in that situation, including exiting support to help women get out of that situation. But also, as a women's rights legal advocacy organization, we are fighting to end the structural discrimination of the whole entire system to really elevate the rights of women and girls at all levels of society. And of course, part of that does need to be the decriminalization of women who are being sexually exploited. It's absolutely horrible that women are being arrested and criminalized for things that they are either, you know, being forced into because of coercion, because of control, or out of a lack of other options. So in that sense, we very much support the rights of women. I would say, at every level. Talk to me about the work that Equality now is doing to crack down on this massive problem. So Equality now is a legal advocate organization campaigning for women's rights. And one of our main focuses is on ending sexual exploitation. Really around the world and within the UK we are specifically calling for legislation which will decriminalize women or anyone who is selling sex. Provide support which is not requiring right now. If you're identified as a victim of trafficking, you do get some limited support from the government. It's time limited. And there are campaigns going on right now by a lot of anti trafficking organizations showing that this is not enough and it's not actually helping victims to recover. We are advocating for the government to go a step further and provide support to anyone that's involved in the sex trade, even if they haven't been identified as a victim of trafficking, including support to exit the sex trade if that's what they would like to do. But also we've talked a lot about the role of demand and the profits coming from the sex trade and why human trafficking is the problem that it is today. And so we certainly also advocate for legislation that will crack down on that demand and hold those accountable who are using their privilege, who are using their power, their socioeconomic status to exploit women and girls for their own profit or for their own sexual pleasure. And really say this is not acceptable in the year 2018. This is not acceptable behavior in society, society and its exploitative behavior that needs to be stopped. And talk to me about the work that Equality now is doing with victims of sex trafficking or rather survivors of this abhorrent trade. So we work through partnership with local organizations. So we are not an organization that provides direct support or services, but we work with partner organizations in the UK and around the world who are the direct support services providers that are providing shelter, counseling, all different forms of support to survivors. And we also collaborate with survivors of prostitution who, as part of their recovery or following recovery, have really decided they wanted to come out and take a stand. And so we try to work in partnership wherever possible, to make sure that we are helping to create space for their voices to be heard and make sure that society and government are really listening to those who have been impacted by these issues and putting their voices first in the discussion. Samantha Schweppensteller, thank you very much for speaking to me. Thank you so much. This has been a pleasure. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of women Worldwide. Hungry an average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism, and my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to Women's Radio Station Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@media mattersforwomen.org. Women's Radio Station is passionate about communication and we'd love any thoughts and feedback on our programs. Email presentersomensradiostation.com if there's a topic you'd like to hear about or want to contact your favourite presenter, do get in touch. WRS Women's Radio Station, Voice of Women Worldwide. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity, helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntous.org.uk Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten. This is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk. women's radio station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Thank you for listening. You can listen again at www.womensradiostation.com where you'll find links to all my previous episodes. You can tweet me on Twitter I amsiemcloud4 and you can head to www.mixcloud.com and type in Rosie MacLeod to access more of my radio programming. That's all for this week. Do tune in next time. Here's Gabrielle Sturbans with the Brid. I walk the bridge alone at night of you if I fail City gleaming to my right and anyone can see. Anyone can see. We walked the bridge for the first time didn't say a word with your hand in mine could anybody know? Could anybody? King. Of our own. I walk over every day with spinning windy bicycles on their way can we take a ride? Can we take a ra. Of all. When you say. When you say softly. When you say you say softly to me to me. Let's go home. Let's go. I'm here in London and I'm delighted to be joined by Samantha Schweppenstedder. Hello. Thank you so much for having me today. So you are the officer in charge of Equality Now's campaign to crack down on sex trafficking? That is correct. I'm working to end sex trafficking within, specifically the UK as well as across Europe for Equality Now. So to talk about the issue, just outline the problem for us and what your research has shown us. Sure. So we focus specifically on trafficking in women and girls for sexual exploitation. And the reason behind that is because within Europe, this is the most common form of human trafficking. We know that 71% of all victims of human trafficking are women and girls. And within the form of exploitation of sexual exploitation, 96% of all victims are women and girls. So as a women's rights organization, we Use the law to advocate for legal change in support of women's equality. We recognize that trafficking is very much a gendered phenomenon, a form of gender based violence and that particularly affects women and girls. Yes. Now you say that you're focusing on trafficking to the uk. It's one of those things that you always think it's never going to happen. To me, there was a slave encampment was discovered in the rural town that I grew up in, Layton Buzzard, and one of the reasons that they were able to get away with it was because it's a countryfied area and everyone thinks nothing bad ever happened. Are you looking at sex trafficking within the UK from one city to another? Yes, absolutely. That's actually quite a common misconception, is that trafficking requires there to be cross border movement and that it's people from other countries that are being trafficked here. And of course that does happen as well. But trafficking also occurs within the UK to British citizens as well. British nationals are among the most common victims for particularly child sexual exploitation. Trafficking and children. You see a lot of British victims, but also British adult women, particularly within prostitution, can be exploited and trafficked as well. And is this happening in the rural areas where people don't think anything bad is ever going to happen? What we've seen from the National Crime Agency is that it's happening everywhere, that there's nowhere that is completely free from human trafficking. Yeah, it's something it's sometimes called sort of the crime that's hidden in plain view. Because really on any high street, in shops, in flats, there's potential for victims of trafficking to be exploited there. Wow. I mean, perhaps it's darkly not quite surprising when you think that they've had to bring in the modern slavery bill and they've had to raise awareness of people being kept as slaves. Now this sex trafficking problem, it's not a modern slavery issue and not a sex trade issue either. This is a crisis of organized ongoing rape. Yes, actually that is really the right way to look at it. This is not an issue of forced labor, for example. This is very much an issue of sexual assault, of sexual violence, of rape. We know from looking at statistics from the previous national support provider to victims of human trafficking within the UK called the Poppy Project, that women in, the women that they were supporting who had been trafficked for sexual exploitation were being forced to see on average 11 so called clients a day. Well, we need to keep in mind that every single man that uses a woman in prostitution who's been trafficked is actually Committing a crime of rape against her, whether he might realize that or not, be aware of it or not. It's not always, you know, it's a false perception to be able to think that if someone appears to be happy that they're not being controlled by the scenes, that this is consensual engagement or a matter of choice. And that's the crux of the issue, is that men are prepared to pay for sex with complete disregard for the well being of the woman providing that service. Yes, that's correct. It's very much a one sided exchange. It's about one person putting their own sexual gratification over not only the sexual gratification of the other, but even just the basic well being of another person. And if we can talk about it in financial terms, how much are the men paying to use these women? What are these women worth to the traffickers? Well, I mean, that's actually a really interesting question. Globally we know that trafficking for sexual exploitation is the abso most profitable form of human trafficking and it's netting US$99 billion a year. So it's incredibly profitable for human traffickers. And of course the reason it's profitable is because there are men who are willing to pay to use these women. That is where the profits originate, that's where the money starts. But what is also quite heartbreaking to see is that actually per woman, per exchange, sometimes within the UK we know of cases where men are paying as little as 10 pounds per engagement with a woman. So on one hand it's showing that actually the male sex buyers really have very little value for the women. But on the other hand we also know that because in the case of human trafficking, unlike other forms of trafficking, such as with drugs, a woman can be sold over and over and over again, that it actually can quite net quite a lot of profits for the exploiter. And how much rape do the women suffer before help is found? If help is found, yes. So going back to the statistics that I had mentioned earlier that we had gathered from the Poppy project, we know that on average a woman is raped anywhere from 2,000 to 6,000 times in her situation of trafficking. It depends of course, how many months she is held in that situation. I think on average is something I want to say about eight months, although I could be mistaken about that. But yet this is really a mass epidemic. And you know, we know more and more we recognize the trauma that a woman who experiences one instance of rape in her life might go through and how really life destroying that can be. Imagine this occurring thousands of times to one person, it really, it can be almost impossible to recover from. And it really is a crisis. Yeah, A crisis of violence against women. And one woman's vagina was so sore a doctor couldn't even examine her. Yeah, I actually think that's, that's quite common. You hear of individual cases that are really quite horrific of, you know, you have to remember that what prostitution is, in these cases, it's using bodily orifices of women as objects. So vaginal and anal tearing is quite common. Of course, transmission of STIs. A whole range of really horrific physical and also mental health outcomes that are really difficult to recover from come out of this. So how do the women end up in this situation? Are they coerced? Are they abducted? Are they desperate? It's a combination of all of those. I've seen everything from a case of a. A college educated, university educated woman from China who was tricked into what she thought was going to be a study abroad opportunity in the UK and ended up being forced into prostitution as well as filmed for pornography. But then also children from really impoverished backgrounds might just be abducted, might be brought, thinking that they're going to have better opportunities in the uk or also, as we've seen in Rotherham, which was a case of organized criminal sex trafficking there, British girls who are also usually just being stereotyped. As you know, these are bad kids. These are kids that are up to no good when real. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of women worldwide. Hungry. An average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station, we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism and my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to Women's Radio Station Women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@mediamattersforwomen.com. Women's Radio Station is passionate about communication and we'd love any thoughts and Feedback on our programs. Email presentersomensradiostation.com if there's a topic you'd like to hear about or want to contact your favourite presenter, do get in touch. WRS women's radio station, Voice of women Worldwide. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntous.org.uk Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten. This is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk. women's radio station is a not for profit community interest company. Supporting, supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Yeah, that's actually a really big problem is training and understanding of the nature of trafficking, how to recognize exploitation, how to recognize coercion, particularly because over time the traffickers have become much more just better. They are always staying one step ahead of the police, I think, in terms of the tactics that they'll use. So, you know, historically you might think of a lot of physical force and violence being used, women being beaten up. And I'm not saying that doesn't happen, of course, that does still happen as well. But also it's really incredible what the psychological coercion and manipulation can do. And so that's certainly a tactic that traffickers are increasingly taking and it makes it much more difficult to recognize that the violence is occurring, that this is a form of violence. And also, yeah, so some police forces are, I think, much better equipped and trained to recognize this than others. And certainly we are seeing these really big gaps depending on the area and sort of how much this has been prioritized for the local police force or not Precisely. I mean, the police who dealt with the incident I just described, that happened to me rang up the next day and asked me if I wanted counseling. And they made sure that they helped us Go around the houses and knock on the doors of everyone who had children to say, this has happened, don't go that way home. And there was just no support for these other girls living not so far away and within the same country. Yeah, yeah. And yeah. And as you say, it really is also, it's an issue of racism, of classism as well, and of course of sexism, of not caring as much about what happens to women and girls, particularly if they are women and girls from other countries who are most likely to first be treated as an illegal immigrant before they're going to be seen as the potential victim that they are. So talk to me about the role of the Internet in sex trafficking. Yes. So the Internet is a huge facilitator of sex trafficking. It really is the platform that allows traffickers to find potential buyers. What we've seen is the APPG on prostitution and the global sex trade. Earlier this year in July came out with a report that was really looking specifically, well included, looking at that, that found that the Internet in particular these prostitution websites are the biggest enabler of sexual exploitation in the United Kingdom. So it really is just creating a marketplace that's even more accessible to more and more people. So it can really get a lot of profits from it. And having said that, having said that, websites that are being used to exploit women in this way only exist because there is a market for it. Yes, that is correct. Human trafficking is first and foremost about profits for the traffickers and they are not going to traffic in so called goods that are not going to bring them a lot of money. So it really is because there are so many men in the UK and around the world who are willing to pay to use women and girls as objects for their own sexual pleasure, that trafficking for sexual exploitation exists without this market, without these men who were really fueling the demand for more and more female bodies essentially, they wouldn't be trafficking in women and girls, it wouldn't bring them a profit and so they would turn to something else. It's really a profit driven crime. Now, given the clandestine nature of the crime, it might be difficult to put a figure on it. But how many women that you know about are being trafficked? That is really difficult to put a figure on. I believe the most recent statistics from the National Crime agency had identified 1,300 about women who had been trafficked for sexual exploitation in the UK last year, in 2017. But the director of the NCA has also said that even they believe this is just the tip of the iceberg. And they believe, you know, if we're finding around 1300 women, it's probably more likely that it's in the tens of thousands. So maybe something like 13,000 women who are currently in situations of sexual exploitation within the United Kingdom. And where do they tend to be from? Romania, Vietnam. So those are two of the main countries that women come from. Nigeria as well, China is one of them and Albania is one. But, but really women can come from anywhere. Anyone that's in a vulnerable situation can be taken advantage of. And I've also seen victims, you know, who have come from upper class backgrounds, upper middle class backgrounds from various countries that, you know, if they're trying to escape either often a situation of gender based violence, actually you see that it's one form of gender based violence leading to another. Or if they're just trying to make a better lives for themselves and are tricked and are deceived into what they're getting into. I would say that there's no one that could be untouched by human trafficking. It could really happen to any of us if someone decided that they wanted to deceive us and exploit us in that way. And this affects women of which ages, really women of any age, we know that client well again, so called clients. So sex buyers are usually willing to pay more for younger women, for girls. And the market in children is even more profitable than in adults. But again, we've also seen victims who are in their 50s and their 60s who are still actively being sexually exploited. So it really, there's a huge age range, but certainly the younger the woman, often the more profits that someone can get out of her because she can be used time and time again. Now, I'm guessing if girls are trafficked from a young age, they're abducted at a young age. And then you hear this buzzword or this phrase all the time. Trapped in the sex trade. Do they become trapped in the sex trade? I'm guessing that they become trapped in the sex trade until womanhood. Is there a sort of a Stockholm Syndrome there? Are they dependent on it? Would it be actually harder for them to break out of that cycle? I think that's absolutely the case. And one thing that we really see is it's really a false dichotomy to think that there's prostitution or sex work on the one hand and human trafficking on the other, and the two have nothing to do with each other. I think the way you've described it, being trapped in the sex trade and trapped in a cycle is really correct. A lot of cases that we would see are of girls who might be trafficked in a very classic sense of the definition kidnapped, abducted, sold in prostitution, who then at some point manage to escape, but are most likely escaping in a country where they don't know anyone, where they don't know that there's help available to them, where they don't feel like they can trust anyone. They've had their sense of self so broken down that even once they've left their trafficking situation, they're ending up in a period of street homelessness and again, are vulnerable to further exploitation. They might begin selling sex for survival, but you can hardly say that this is something that they're choosing for themselves. It's really coming out of desperation. And I think we really shouldn't underestimate the psychological impact of being used as an object for other people's sex pleasure throughout your life or for many months or for many years. It really makes you lose all sense of self worth and feel like there are no other options available to you because no one thinks you're good for anything else. No one sees you as the individual human that you are. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of Women Worldwide. Hungry? An average woman eats about 22 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station, we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism and my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to Women's Radio Station Women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@media mattersforwomen.com. Women's Radio Station is passionate about communication and we'd love any thoughts and feedback on our programs, email presenterswomensradiostation.com if there's a topic you'd like to hear about or want to contact your favourite presenter, do get in touch. WRS Women's Radio Station, Voice of Women Worldwide. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntous.org.uk Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten. This is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk Women's radio station is a not for profit community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate simply head to our website. Every little will help.